Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCOWHFugLhc 
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6axEByVcWO1rGvJ8wbG2Fy?si=832914b3dd424062 
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/au/song/the-bakers-daughter/1502087315 
• Amazon - https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B085NW7BRC?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_EYeB2kM01aUtFssDMJz3YWKlw&trackAsin=B085NWGRXL 

Key takeaways

• Trist and Elaine discuss Laila Biali’s “The Baker’s Daughter,” which Biali had initially composed as an instrumental piece during her college years and later added lyrics
• The podcast highlights the song's structure, rhythm, lyrics, mix, and the subtle use of brass and doubled vocals in creating the lush jazz sound
• In the Mailbag portion, Trist and Elaine discuss the importance of consuming media and engaging in activities with intention rather than by default

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist!

Elaine: What do we have this week?

Trist: Today we have what I believe is,

Trist: you know, I come up with these

Trist: things and I don't do the heavy

Trist: research.

Trist: I got to get my research staff on this, but I believe this is

Trist: our first Juno Award winner.

Trist: What is that you say?

Trist: Go ahead.

Elaine: Oh, you want me to say it?

Elaine: What is that?

Trist: Well, Elaine, what that is, is

Trist: kind of the equivalent of the

Trist: Grammy Award.

Trist: It's the Canadian music industry awards.

Elaine: Oh, okay.

Trist: Yeah, I believe it's our first Juno Award winner.

Trist: And if it's not, who cares?

Trist: She's fantastic.

Trist: She's Laila Biali, and this is "The Baker's Daughter."

Elaine: Oh, okay.

Elaine: Well, I've never heard of her, so I'm really looking forward to

Elaine: listening to this.

Trist: Fantastic.

Trist: That's why we're here.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: Okay, so before we get going, Trist, can you remind all of us,

Elaine: especially our first time listeners, how we should be

Elaine: listening to music?

Trist: Well, while we do love that you are here listening on your walk

Trist: in your car, etc., in a place where you may not be able to do

Trist: much about it, we're just glad to have you regardless.

Trist: However, if you're able to

Trist: improve your listening

Trist: situation, get in that nice room

Trist: with the nice speakers, or grab

Trist: the headphones, maybe the

Trist: headphones that you bought for

Trist: your kid because they're nicer

Trist: than yours, whatever the case

Trist: may be, if you can improve your

Trist: listening situation, I encourage

Trist: you to do so because we just

Trist: don't take the time to do that

Trist: these days.

Trist: So please listen in the best way possible if you are able.

Elaine: And with that, we are going to

Elaine: go ahead and pause for a brief

Elaine: moment.

Elaine: The links to the song are in the show notes.

Elaine: So pause this podcast, listen to the song a couple of times.

Elaine: Come on back and we'll pick up after the break.

Elaine: All right, we're back.

Elaine: Ooh. This one was super interesting.

Elaine: I am very curious to hear what you have to say about this,

Elaine: because I have thoughts.

Trist: Oh.

Elaine: Yeah. So tell me, why did you choose the song?

Trist: This goes into the category.

Trist: If you've listened to some of these, sometimes there's just a

Trist: song that I really love, some geeky musical thing about it.

Trist: I like something about, like the

Trist: feel or the chords or the lyrics

Trist: or whatever.

Trist: This is one of those I'm a sucker for the chords.

Trist: Can't even tell you right off

Trist: the top of my head what they all

Trist: are.

Trist: I just love the progression.

Trist: I love the feeling of just listening to this.

Trist: Sometimes it's just that.

Trist: Love Laila's voice.

Trist: She's just a great person and an amazing, writer and arranger.

Trist: Piano player, singer, vocalist.

Trist: And there's not a particular thing.

Trist: I just like the entire package.

Trist: Just wanted to share it with you and the listeners.

Elaine: Yeah, I was definitely

Elaine: fascinated by the chord choices

Elaine: as well.

Elaine: And also for the rhythms, there

Elaine: was a lot of the rhythm that

Elaine: captured me.

Elaine: I'd say between my first and second listen, I was like, okay,

Elaine: wait, wait, wait.

Elaine: I got to sit down and count this out.

Elaine: I know it's in six, but it

Elaine: sounds like there are some like,

Elaine: is there a four in there

Elaine: somewhere?

Elaine: Is there like, what's going on?

Trist: Right.

Elaine: And for one of those, I actually sat down and counted through the

Elaine: entire song just to make sure I knew what was going on.

Elaine: The answer, by the way, is that it is a hard six throughout.

Elaine: There is no additional measures or half measures in there.

Trist: That's

Elaine: It

Trist: interesting.

Elaine: did.

Trist: That's. I'm sorry I'm interrupting you.

Trist: I find the concept of quote unquote.

Trist: "What is it?" to be fascinating

Trist: between musicians and

Trist: non-musicians, etc.?

Trist: Because to me, the important thing is just that if you're

Trist: making the music with another person, that they're able to

Trist: recreate it, no matter what you call it or what it quote unquote

Trist: is or isn't.

Trist: It doesn't

Elaine: I.

Trist: really matter to just consume it and listen to it.

Trist: Now, if I need to go play the song,

Elaine: Right.

Trist: I need to know, or I need to at

Trist: least understand how I interpret

Trist: it.

Elaine: I think that the reason why I am thinking about this as how do I

Elaine: think about this music?

Elaine: And part of it is that I have

Elaine: certain reference points when it

Elaine: comes to things like the

Elaine: downbeat.

Elaine: If I get confused about the downbeat, or if I get confused

Elaine: about certain things, or if there is something interesting

Elaine: happening over where it's like a three over two type

Trist: Right.

Elaine: of situation.

Elaine: It helps me to understand what's happening inside of me.

Trist: Yes.

Elaine: And so as I'm thinking about, okay, is this a six?

Elaine: Is this something else?

Elaine: Are there extra measures in there?

Elaine: It helps me to make sense and

Elaine: anchor myself in the song

Elaine: itself, so that I can understand

Elaine: how to talk about it, especially

Elaine: as you and I are talking about

Elaine: it together.

Elaine: But also to understand maybe where I got confused.

Elaine: Did I lose the one?

Elaine: And there

Trist: Right.

Elaine: were certain points where I did lose the one.

Elaine: Why did I lose the one?

Elaine: And that was actually a process for me as I was like, oh, this

Elaine: is what's happening.

Trist: Right.

Elaine: There's a three over two happening over here.

Elaine: And therefore it sounds like this.

Elaine: Or the chord change happens on the second group of three and

Elaine: therefore that makes me feel blah, blah, blah.

Elaine: And so

Trist: Totally.

Elaine: I think that as I'm going through this, when I analyze it

Elaine: for rhythm, often, it's so that I understand where I might have

Elaine: gotten confused or where the anchor point of the rhythm is.

Elaine: And sometimes you get like

Elaine: sevens or you got some kind of

Elaine: really interesting thing where

Elaine: you're like, oh, why does it

Elaine: feel like I'm a little off

Elaine: balance and

Trist: Right.

Elaine: it's because it's in five or seven or something

Trist: Right.

Elaine: like that, or you have an extra 2/4 somewhere

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: that you didn't really, expect.

Elaine: And so that to me is a way for

Elaine: me to kind of orient myself

Elaine: around the rhythmic center of

Elaine: the song.

Trist: Totally. By the way, I wasn't

Trist: even disagreeing with you, it

Trist: hit a point that I've run into

Trist: many times in my musical life

Trist: and heated conversations about

Trist: what something quote unquote is

Trist: or isn't.

Trist: And again, at the end of the

Trist: day, if the whole purpose of

Trist: knowing that is so you can

Trist: interpret and you can make the

Trist: music together, like you said,

Trist: as long as you're feeling those

Trist: downbeats in the place

Trist: simultaneously.

Trist: Yeah, it almost doesn't

Trist: necessarily matter what the

Trist: representation on the piece of

Trist: paper.

Elaine: so anyway, that being said, going back onto the song, I

Elaine: thought there was so much to talk about in this song.

Elaine: certainly from a lyric analysis perspective.

Elaine: But before we

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: get into that, one of the

Elaine: beautiful things about having

Elaine: someone who is modern is that

Elaine: you get to hear a little bit

Elaine: more about the process,

Elaine: especially through their social

Elaine: media.

Elaine: And so I did a little bit of searching, found

Trist: Nice.

Elaine: a Facebook post that Laila had

Elaine: made about this piece and that I

Elaine: think gave me more insight into

Elaine: this itself.

Elaine: She did write this fairly early on in her career.

Elaine: She said that she had written this song when she was nineteen

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: and still in college up in

Elaine: Toronto, and so I was like, oh,

Elaine: this is amazing that this even

Elaine: came up.

Elaine: She talked a little bit about her process, how she started out

Elaine: writing this as primarily an instrumental piece, and

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: then added the lyrics in later.

Elaine: And so

Trist: Excellent.

Elaine: I thought that was fascinating, especially how integrated this

Elaine: song felt to me.

Elaine: And so the question that I wanted to ask you is, does that

Elaine: show at all to you?

Elaine: You know, the fact that she

Elaine: wrote it as an instrumental

Elaine: first and then added in the

Elaine: words, is it something that you

Elaine: had said, oh, the words are an

Elaine: integral part of this, or could

Elaine: you just see this as a pure

Elaine: instrumental?

Elaine: I'm just interested in your thought process around that

Elaine: particular story and how you heard the song or experience the

Elaine: song to begin with.

Trist: I mean, now that you mention that you dug up that it started

Trist: its life as an instrumental, I can see that.

Trist: I think because of what we were

Trist: just talking about, like the the

Trist: kind of rhythmic metamorphosis

Trist: between the verses and the

Trist: choruses give a lot of interest

Trist: by themselves.

Trist: so I can see its life as just an instrumental.

Trist: And you say she added lyrics later.

Elaine: It sounds

Trist: Um,

Elaine: like much later.

Trist: okay.

Trist: yeah, I think it could stand as either.

Elaine: Hm.

Trist: And I think because of that,

Trist: because there's enough musical

Trist: interest.

Trist: We've talked about that before

Trist: in the podcast a lot of times,

Trist: like a song where it's like, no,

Trist: these lyrics are the reason this

Trist: exists.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: Um, I think there was a John Mayer that we had not too

Trist: terribly long ago.

Trist: I think that exact song just played it as an instrumental is

Trist: a little "enh."

Trist: he's kind of like, okay, sure.

Trist: It's fine.

Trist: because the whole background,

Trist: the whole supporting track is

Trist: just kind of stoic, not doing a

Trist: lot.

Trist: It's letting those lyrics be featured.

Trist: and this, I think, kind of does both.

Trist: It could stand alone interesting as music, without a lyric.

Trist: But, I think the lyric goes with it.

Trist: because I think the uplift and

Trist: the positivity, I don't know why

Trist: I get that from the chords and

Trist: the vibe and the rhythmic shift

Trist: of the choruses are like

Trist: hopeful.

Trist: And then so are the lyrics.

Trist: So I guess in my brain it

Trist: happened together, but

Trist: apparently not.

Trist: So that's cool.

Elaine: Interesting.

Elaine: I will say that from my look at the lyrics, this is a very

Elaine: hopeful song, but it ends up as being a very hopeful song.

Elaine: Like, the first part of the song is actually pretty depressing.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Um, you know, as I'm talking about this, part of what

Elaine: fascinates me about this particular song is that the

Elaine: lyrics are so strong.

Elaine: There are a lot of really,

Elaine: really great things about it,

Elaine: especially in the use of

Elaine: repetition.

Elaine: And one of the things that I

Elaine: look for in lyrics or poetry is,

Elaine: what is the repeated phrase

Elaine: that's happening over and over

Elaine: again?

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And there are lots of repeated phrases in here.

Elaine: But then outside of the repeated

Elaine: phrase, what is the general

Elaine: sense of progression in this

Elaine: song?

Elaine: So it starts out with phase one, it's a pretty lostness, it tells

Elaine: a story of this girl that leaves home, leaves her small town, and

Elaine: is trying to find her way.

Elaine: And then it goes into that same kind of theme, but it ends with

Elaine: an extra chorus, right?

Elaine: There's only one chorus the

Elaine: first time through, but there's

Elaine: a second chorus in the second

Elaine: and third time through, and that

Elaine: second chorus actually finishes

Elaine: with a line that is incredibly

Elaine: reassuring in that you're never

Elaine: alone, you are not going about

Elaine: this alone.

Elaine: Whereas the first one, it just ends with you're on your own,

Elaine: you're kind of wandering.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: and so I think that the last little section there, it has a

Elaine: much shorter verse, but it talks about the sense of rebirth.

Elaine: I also took a look as a part of this theme, there are three

Elaine: different pre-choruses, and

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: the lyrics actually build along those same themes.

Elaine: And so the first one is walking out into freedom, the second one

Elaine: is crying out for freedom, and the third one is stepping out

Elaine: into freedom and thinking about the three of them.

Elaine: The first one is this entire story of okay departure.

Elaine: The second one is captivity and trying to, leave this captivity.

Elaine: The third one is a more active

Elaine: rebirth, You're stepping out

Elaine: into freedom.

Elaine: There's something in there that

Elaine: implies that there is some form

Elaine: of agency that the girl has as

Elaine: she is entering into this third

Elaine: phase.

Elaine: So I think overall it moves into a very hopeful space.

Elaine: But it really

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: does talk about this character

Elaine: arc of the main character was

Elaine: like

Trist: Right.

Elaine: the the person, the "you" right.

Elaine: The person that Laila is singing to.

Trist: I hear the hopefulness more in the choruses.

Trist: The groove and feel is different.

Trist: Like you said, the different ways to start those verses.

Trist: seem Okay.

Trist: There's all these dilemmas.

Trist: But then the chorus is the hopeful part, I like the "And

Trist: the hand that turns the day to night / in the same way moves

Trist: from dark to light."

Trist: So just because you're perceiving this thing, that same

Trist: energy can turn right around just as quickly, Like still,

Trist: there's something to be hopeful.

Elaine: Yeah. I just want to wrap up our discussion of the lyrics with

Elaine: reading out what Laila had shared in her post.

Elaine: And this was

Trist: Oh,

Elaine: in

Trist: great.

Elaine: April of 2020. So she talks about the instrumental version,

Elaine: which I already referenced, and she says, "fast forward fifteen

Elaine: years, and I was inspired to reimagine The Baker's Daughter

Elaine: to include lyrics and vocals.

Elaine: That was the second iteration.

Elaine: Then, when fine tuning the music for Out of Dust, the album that

Elaine: this was on,

Trist: Right.

Elaine: I revisited the song yet again and changed the words to make it

Elaine: a dedication to my sister Nia.

Elaine: Nia is a brilliant visual artist

Elaine: who has struggled to find her

Elaine: place in the world, like many

Elaine: gifted artists who are

Elaine: incredibly sensitive.

Elaine: and yet even in times of deep loneliness, she has always known

Elaine: that she never walks alone.

Elaine: We

Trist: Yeah,

Elaine: never walk alone."

Trist: yeah.

Elaine: Which I thought was really interesting and incredibly

Elaine: sweet, but I also think puts a specific lens on the lyrics.

Elaine: I think it's very rare that you

Elaine: get a sense of why lyrics are

Elaine: written the way that they are,

Elaine: because

Trist: Right.

Elaine: there are certain, people who are like, "I'm never going to

Elaine: tell, you experience a song the way that you want to,"

Trist: Right.

Elaine: um, even out to Seal saying

Elaine: like, you hear whatever lyrics

Elaine: you want to in "Kiss from a

Elaine: Rose."

Trist: Right.

Elaine: But you know, I'm never going to tell you what the lyrics are.

Trist: Yeah. That is cool.

Trist: And it kind of fits.

Trist: Yeah, I can hear that at as struggling artist.

Trist: And that goes with the same lyric.

Trist: I was just saying the same

Trist: energy and the same quick turn

Trist: that, oh, everything's going

Trist: astray.

Trist: Like, boom, suddenly you get

Trist: this gig or suddenly your art

Trist: lands in a certain way and

Trist: touches people.

Trist: That can just happen quickly and the key for any good artist is

Trist: having that support team.

Trist: Obviously again, reading the lyric however you want could be

Trist: a lot of different things.

Trist: The Baker's Daughter would imply

Trist: this daughter had a baker as a

Trist: dad.

Trist: Almost like I read it as, like a family business and like, nope,

Trist: I'm not gonna do that, though.

Trist: You've got this.

Trist: But that's not me.

Trist: I'm gonna go to the city, which is where I can find my separate

Trist: path from you.

Elaine: I find it absolutely fascinating

Elaine: that that's where you ended up,

Elaine: because I went through an entire

Elaine: rabbit trail in thinking about

Elaine: why is it called The Baker's

Elaine: Daughter?

Elaine: That's actually where I ended

Elaine: up, was like, oh, maybe it's

Elaine: Occam's Razor.

Elaine: Maybe it is actually just a literal baker's daughter.

Elaine: Like there was a parent that was a baker.

Elaine: But I started out thinking, oh

Elaine: man, is there a literary

Elaine: reference here?

Elaine: Is it like a reference to Chaucer?

Elaine: Went back to Chaucer, it's like,

Elaine: oh no, there's no baker in

Elaine: Chaucer.

Elaine: Okay.

Elaine: Is it "Into the Woods?" Because

Elaine: there's a baker in "Into the

Elaine: Woods."

Elaine: And then I thought, oh, wait a minute, they have no children.

Elaine: And so then I ended up with a well, maybe, maybe a parent is

Elaine: just a baker.

Elaine: Before we wrap up, I did want to

Elaine: talk about the orchestration and

Elaine: about the choices of the

Elaine: instruments.

Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit about what you heard here?

Trist: I don't know that I have a lot necessarily about the choice.

Trist: Other than they're all really good.

Trist: Really great mix, really great sound.

Trist: And not surprising to me.

Trist: Her husband, Ben, is a

Trist: percussionist and an amazing

Trist: producer.

Trist: We may very well have more songs on here in the future that are

Trist: produced by him.

Trist: It's really uniform.

Trist: Everything just fits, and supports those lyrics.

Trist: I like that the horns aren't always all the horns all the

Trist: time when they're used.

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: It's like, oh, there's some saxes now.

Trist: There's some brass, and now they're all together.

Trist: I kind of like that.

Elaine: Yeah, I did also mark down that it was very well mixed.

Elaine: There was a sense of "nothing

Elaine: overwhelms, everything

Elaine: supports," especially

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: when it comes to brass.

Elaine: And I think that with brass it's always a little hard because

Elaine: they're so loud.

Elaine: But

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: we did have a section where it

Elaine: just sounded like multiple brass

Elaine: instruments.

Elaine: and there's a certain blend of multiple brass instruments, like

Elaine: we recently talked about the Björk brass ensemble

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: in Overture, and we also talked about brass in the Michael

Elaine: Jackson track that we had a couple of weeks ago.

Elaine: And as I was thinking about it,

Elaine: there were sections where it was

Elaine: a lot more brass than I thought

Elaine: it was at first, because it was

Elaine: so quiet.

Elaine: And it helped with the dynamics a lot to have the brass support

Elaine: in that way.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: The other things that I heard in

Elaine: there, there were a couple of

Elaine: different key patches that were

Elaine: in there.

Elaine: One definitely sounded like a Rhodes.

Elaine: There were a couple other ones.

Elaine: One sounded a lot more like a basic piano.

Elaine: And we also had, like you mentioned, sax and a bunch of

Elaine: other types and just taking a look at the other people who had

Elaine: played on it.

Elaine: It looked like there was also a trombonist in there, a trumpet

Elaine: player as well.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Drums were a major part of it.

Elaine: I felt like the drums really

Elaine: carried a lot of the sense of

Elaine: six, but also the sense of three

Elaine: over two.

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: and.

Trist: Yeah. Very key In that again rhythmic metamorphosis from one

Trist: to the other.

Trist: The whole ensemble was definitely well- rehearsed.

Trist: They were all definitely feeling all of that.

Trist: It just kind of instantly flows

Trist: right into the new feels, back

Trist: and forth.

Elaine: Yeah. I also was interested to hear the doubled vocals.

Elaine: There are certain places where there's a male vocalist behind

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Laila just in the first part of the chorus, and there were parts

Elaine: where he dropped out and Can you talk a little bit about how, the

Elaine: doubling of vocals helps our sense of the melody?

Trist: Well, I just think it's used as emphasis and variety.

Trist: Could very easily have been a

Trist: harmony vocal and it's just an

Trist: octave below.

Trist: So that's usually to just help

Trist: emphasize what the melody is

Trist: there, helps bring it out, even

Trist: if you're not necessarily

Trist: conscious.

Trist: It happens a lot, sometimes octave below, sometimes octave

Trist: above, sometimes both.

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: Um. On choruses of songs and until it's pointed out, you

Trist: don't even notice they're there.

Trist: This is mixed a little more intentionally for you to hear.

Trist: There's absolutely an octave below it in those places.

Trist: But sometimes it's mixed back a

Trist: bit and you don't really notice

Trist: it.

Trist: But if you took it away, that lead vocal wouldn't feel as big.

Trist: Kind of just some old tricks.

Elaine: Yeah. It was definitely very subtle.

Elaine: It wasn't a very strong "oh now a second person singing."

Elaine: I had to stop and think about it.

Elaine: And I'm like "oh, there is a second person there!" in order

Elaine: to, what you were saying, underscore that particular line

Elaine: in a very subtle way.

Trist: Yeah, I really like that.

Trist: Again, very easy to say.

Trist: "Oh, now let's overdub that harmony part.

Trist: Now let's do that part."

Trist: It's very easy to just go crazy.

Trist: And sometimes that's awesome and effective and helpful.

Trist: But they chose not to do that.

Trist: And I liked the choice of just the octave.

Elaine: Yeah. Going back to what you

Elaine: were saying about choices that

Elaine: producers make and the

Elaine: relationship between producer

Elaine: and artist, this is a place

Elaine: where a producer can give really

Elaine: clear guidance as to how much is

Elaine: too much, and how much is just

Elaine: enough.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Well, any last thoughts before we move on?

Trist: Oh. That's it.

Trist: I'm glad we got this one in.

Trist: Like I said, it feels good.

Trist: not a lot of songs that sound just like it.

Trist: it's unique.

Trist: And, I just glad we got to share that with people.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: And so with that, we are going to shift gears into our.

Trist: Mail mail mail mail mail bag.

Elaine: That's right. The Mailbag.

Elaine: And unusual.

Elaine: This week's Mailbag is coming from Trist!

Elaine: So, Trist,

Trist: That's right,

Elaine: take us away.

Trist: Perusing through Instagram.

Trist: So this is like a share of a

Trist: share of a share, but it just

Trist: hit me.

Trist: The post reads: "We are

Trist: overstimulated and we don't even

Trist: notice.

Trist: Netflix while eating, reels in the bathroom, music while

Trist: cooking, podcasts on walks.

Trist: We consume by default, not intention.

Trist: You keep filling every gap, then

Trist: wonder why you feel foggy and

Trist: unmotivated.

Trist: Boredom and silence are the real growth drivers.

Trist: They give you space to think and create.

Trist: That's when solutions show up for problems that have been

Trist: stuck for months.

Trist: Leave some room."

Elaine: A hundred percent agree.

Elaine: And, uh.

Trist: We say, as our listeners are out

Trist: walking listening to this

Trist: podcast.

Elaine: I know, I know.

Elaine: Well, I think part of the reason

Elaine: I say this is that for a number

Elaine: of years, I have been thinking

Elaine: about the role of silence in my

Elaine: life and also the uninterrupted

Elaine: time.

Elaine: Like, there's this question of how come so many good ideas come

Elaine: while you're in the bathroom or like, taking a shower or

Elaine: something like that?

Elaine: And a big part of that is that you have no distractions.

Elaine: Especially when you're

Elaine: showering, you're not like

Elaine: scrolling your phone while

Elaine: you're showering.

Elaine: There is often that time where inspiration will strike.

Elaine: And a big part of that is just you are doing nothing else.

Elaine: And so that comes to the

Elaine: question of what does it mean to

Elaine: have a practice of sitting in

Elaine: silence or doing things in

Elaine: silence?

Elaine: I remember someone I knew, gave up radio in the car for Lent.

Elaine: And

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: so for a number of days, just drove in silence.

Elaine: And he had talked a bit about the experience as being

Elaine: incredibly freeing for him.

Elaine: And I will do that nowadays

Elaine: where if I'm feeling a little

Elaine: bit overstimulated, I will turn

Elaine: off everything.

Elaine: If I'm driving around in the car

Elaine: and I'll just sit in silence and

Elaine: just drive.

Elaine: And that frees me to start

Elaine: thinking about things that I

Elaine: normally just fill with podcasts

Elaine: or

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: other types of input.

Elaine: So I'm kind of curious about you.

Elaine: Like, do you have a practice of

Elaine: silence or like choosing to do

Elaine: things in silence, whether it's

Elaine: a walk or any other type of

Elaine: thing without external

Elaine: stimulation?

Trist: Yeah, I think I will catch

Trist: myself consuming by default, not

Trist: by intention.

Trist: So I've tried to give a little bit more attention to that.

Trist: So heading out for a walk, it's just a default.

Trist: There are times I literally get out of my house, get the AirPods

Trist: out of my pocket, put them in and realize, oh, there's not

Trist: like a thing that I've been dying to listen to.

Trist: I didn't have a goal.

Trist: I literally just put my AirPods

Trist: in because I'm going for a walk,

Trist: so I must be needing to listen

Trist: to something.

Trist: Sometimes it's fully intentional, like, oh, I need to

Trist: learn these songs, on this walk I'm going to listen to these

Trist: things that I need to learn, or oh yeah, this other new episode

Trist: of my favorite podcast I've been listening to just came out.

Trist: So I don't think there's a thing wrong with that.

Trist: Of all of that stuff I read, from that statement, the thing I

Trist: liked the most was "consuming by intention and not default."

Trist: I'll catch myself doing that.

Trist: if I'm cleaning or doing dishes

Trist: and I put on music, it's

Trist: definitely intentional.

Trist: It's like, yes, I want that other vibe that helps me do this

Trist: thing that I'm not enjoying.

Trist: Like that's intentional.

Trist: Ugh, I have this task I don't want to do for the next hour.

Trist: Let me put on these jams and

Trist: just put myself in a better

Trist: mood, maybe.

Trist: So even that one, it is

Trist: background or it's not the

Trist: focus.

Trist: I know we always talk here about

Trist: trying to be focused on the

Trist: music that sometimes intimates

Trist: that we mean, that it's bad to

Trist: have it be background or not

Trist: focused on.

Trist: That's not at all.

Trist: It's totally fine to to have it

Trist: be background, but just noticing

Trist: it and not just having it be

Trist: there by default, I think, is

Trist: the point.

Elaine: Yeah. I think the thing that struck me was the phrase

Elaine: "filling every gap,"

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: Because we are a society that

Elaine: really tries to optimize for

Elaine: everything.

Elaine: There are definitely days where

Elaine: I feel like if I get all of my

Elaine: ducks in a row and I get all of

Elaine: these machines going and this

Elaine: automation going and get all

Elaine: these things done, then it's a

Elaine: successful day.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: And I feel like that overoptimization really impacts

Elaine: us internally because we don't have the margin to just be.

Elaine: And that is something that I

Elaine: definitely have caught myself

Elaine: doing even this past week where

Elaine: I was like, oh no, I spent so

Elaine: much time just filling my time

Elaine: with activity as opposed to just

Elaine: spending time with my cats,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: Or just sitting and enjoying my house.

Elaine: Not just by default, like you

Elaine: were saying, but instead trying

Elaine: to be present in the current

Elaine: moment.

Elaine: And I think that there are certain movements out there,

Elaine: whether it's a practicing the presence, some of the spiritual

Elaine: traditions out there or mindfulness, just thinking about

Elaine: what am I doing right now and can I focus on the thing right

Elaine: now instead of being on automatic all the time.

Elaine: You think about how many times you're driving and you're like,

Elaine: well, how did I get here?

Elaine: Because you're on autopilot coming back

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: home from the store or something like that.

Elaine: It's a practice for many of

Elaine: these types of challenges that

Elaine: we have in our daily lives as

Elaine: we're thinking about what does

Elaine: it mean to consume

Elaine: intentionally, and at what point

Elaine: in time does it become

Elaine: overstimulation?

Trist: Indeed, and part of the thrust

Trist: behind this podcast is, having

Trist: intentional time that you're

Trist: just listening, so we can talk

Trist: about what's happening in the

Trist: music.

Elaine: If someone were to ask you what your top pro tip would be to

Elaine: avoid overstimulation, what is the thing that you would go to

Elaine: or suggest to someone else?

Trist: I think that same topic we just mentioned, just being aware of

Trist: when you're doing something by default or being intentional.

Trist: It's again, not necessarily the behavior itself, but just how

Trist: you got there.

Trist: And if you feel like you have a problem with that, then the pro

Trist: tip might be to assign yourself something with some regularity.

Trist: Once a day I'm going to spend

Trist: thirty minutes just listening to

Trist: music, or I'm going to spend one

Trist: hour just reading without

Trist: anything else, or I'm going to

Trist: whatever the task is, give

Trist: yourself an assignment, an

Trist: appointment.

Trist: And then maybe, hopefully either that just becomes a regular

Trist: thing where you don't have to actually do it that way.

Trist: The behavior takes over, or it just lets you notice that you

Trist: don't do that as much unless you make the time for it.

Elaine: Yeah, I think for me, a big part

Elaine: of it is a discipline of silence

Elaine: and the discipline of

Elaine: mindfulness.

Elaine: In thinking about what would it mean to just clean the kitchen

Elaine: without any background noise or

Trist: Right.

Elaine: without listening to a podcast or whatnot?

Elaine: Like if I were just doing this in silence, what would happen?

Elaine: And I think the same thing when

Elaine: it comes to, the discipline of

Elaine: mindfulness.

Elaine: Like, what if you were to choose just one thing to do, like what

Elaine: you were saying before?

Elaine: But if I'm very aware of the one thing that I'm doing, if I'm

Elaine: cooking, can I be very aware of the fact that I'm cooking and

Elaine: not just, stirring the pot and going out and, unloading the

Elaine: dishwasher or whatever.

Elaine: And I think that that is a choice that you can make over

Elaine: and over again in these micro decisions that we make.

Elaine: Do I pick up my phone?

Elaine: Do I not pick up my phone?

Elaine: And I think that these are habits that we can develop.

Elaine: But we also need to question.

Elaine: And I think that's a big part of

Elaine: this, is how do we question our

Elaine: practices on a regular basis and

Elaine: whether it's a quarterly thing

Elaine: where you go through and you

Elaine: audit or it's an annual thing

Elaine: where you decide you're going to

Elaine: fast.

Elaine: When I say fast, I don't mean

Elaine: like, oh, I'm not going to eat

Elaine: at all, but it's more like, oh,

Elaine: can I decrease my phone usage by

Elaine: x amount?

Elaine: And I know one year I uninstalled social media apps

Elaine: from my phone just for the period of Lent so that I would

Elaine: have to go to my computer and use it and actually sit down as

Elaine: opposed to using it on my phone.

Trist: Which is intention, not default, right?

Elaine: Exactly.

Elaine: And so that was something that I felt was an interesting practice

Elaine: for me to go through and try to reset my expectations.

Elaine: And then I reinstalled the apps afterwards.

Elaine: But,

Trist: Of course.

Elaine: um, but I think there was

Elaine: something about that, six weeks,

Elaine: six and a half weeks, however

Elaine: long Lent is, um, for me to

Elaine: actually do that as a practice

Elaine: and think about really actively

Elaine: question where I was with all of

Elaine: this.

Trist: Yeah, I think that is kind of a key.

Trist: Just the self assessment.

Trist: It's not necessarily you have to

Trist: change all these behaviors, but

Trist: just to notice them and say, oh,

Trist: I always add this here and I'm

Trist: going to keep doing that because

Trist: it benefits me and I do the

Trist: thing better.

Trist: Great.

Trist: Or I always add that there.

Trist: Oh wow.

Trist: I just do it.

Trist: Why?

Trist: I don't know why.

Trist: I don't need to.

Trist: I should have some silence there instead.

Trist: You know, just being able to just be in control of it, have

Trist: the intention over it I think is really the key there.

Elaine: Mm. Well,

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: definitely a great conversation

Elaine: and particularly applicable for

Elaine: the time that we're in right

Elaine: now, especially, as all of our

Elaine: apps are basically prioritizing

Elaine: and optimizing for our over

Elaine: consumption.

Elaine: So I think it's really important

Elaine: for us all and also to teach our

Elaine: kids and to be in conversation

Elaine: about this with our peers as we

Elaine: are living in this world now,

Elaine: how do we manage this as a

Elaine: society?

Trist: Yeah. And you see it a little bit happening.

Trist: Conversations like this and simple things like, groups of

Trist: friends who will have, the pile of phones in the middle of the

Trist: table at dinner, the

Elaine: Yeah,

Trist: first one

Elaine: I love

Trist: that reaches

Elaine: that.

Trist: for their phone, buys dinner,

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: etc., you know,

Elaine: Etc..

Trist: having

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: conversations instead of like,

Trist: yeah, "that's great, Nancy!" And

Trist: then you're back on your phone

Trist: scrolling.

Trist: So yeah, we're seeing it show up.

Trist: People are realizing that this,

Trist: intention, thing is pretty

Trist: important.

Elaine: Well, that's such a great point.

Elaine: Thanks for bringing this up and

Elaine: for introducing this

Elaine: conversation.

Elaine: It's so important.

Trist: Indeed.

Trist: Thanks

Elaine: And

Trist: a lot.

Elaine: any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Trist: That's it.

Trist: Another good one.

Trist: Thanks for joining us.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: And with that we'll see you next week.

Elaine: Feel free to reach out to us.

Elaine: Send us any thoughts that you might have to our Gmail account.

Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.

Elaine: That's L-O-U-P-E.

Elaine: Or reach out to us via Instagram

Elaine: or Threads at the same account

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe.

Trist: yes, that's a great place that

Trist: you can send your inquiries or

Trist: questions, or you can even let

Trist: us know what time signatures you

Trist: think are involved, or what the

Trist: chords are, in the song we chose

Trist: today.

Trist: and maybe tell us about your intentionality that you do in

Trist: your everyday life that helps you stay sane.

Elaine: you next time.

Trist: Thanks.

Elaine: Doo doo doo doo doo.

Trist: Ooh. Rhythmic metamorphosis

Elaine: Hold on.

Elaine: Let me, let me follow that up

Elaine: with the with an actual

Elaine: question.

Elaine: uh. Let's see.

Elaine: Hold on.

Elaine: That'll probably get cut.