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Hi, there, I'm Aileen. Welcome to my kitchen.

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I just finished steeping a big steaming mug of salabat. Salabat is a

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fresh ginger tea. I blended mine with some honey and lemon.

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When I drink salabat, I remember my mother preparing this for me whenever

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I had a sore throat or was recovering from a cold or in

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chilly winter days. It can be left as is or sweetened,

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but the key is to have really good strong ginger.

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It's so delicious and simple and you can drink it any time.

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It's the soothing heat of this recipe that makes me think about healing,

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and that brings me to the topic that we're gonna learn about today:

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The legacy relationship between art and medicine. I've brought together

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two leaders who have deep embodied wisdom on this topic. Rowen White is

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a seed keeper and farmer who works to cultivate a culture of belonging

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in our food system. Geeta Maker Clark is an activist physician and healer

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working to radically re imagine what it means to be healthy.

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Settle in and enjoy the conversation. We're in for a conversation today.

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Geeta and Rowen, you both wear so many different hats in different settings,

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and today, we're here to talk about this conversation around weaving together

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this legacy of art and medicine. And this conversation between you two,

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I feel like it would just provide so much truth and so much

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firsthand witness to how this weaving happens and what it can look like.

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So before we jump into that, I want to center your minds with

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So much of life, as you know, lives in the details,

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and rhythm, sights, sounds, and smells. How do the two of you start

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your day? Geeta, you wanna kick us off? Yeah, so for quite some

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years now, I've started my day with a smile. When my eyes open and

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I become conscious of my awakeness, I make my face into a smile

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to send a message to my cells that we're alive and that we're

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going to have this blank canvas of a good day in front of

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us. And then after that, I just say a very quick small prayer

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that's gratitude for being alive. It's really just a moment of grace and

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gratitude. Usually, after a cup of hot water,

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I'll go and pray for sometimes a few minutes or longer,

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if I have that, and get the day moving, usually, with getting set

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up to see patients or whatever the family's needs are. Rowen, how's your

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day begin? Well, I'm a dreamer, so I usually reach right for my

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journal to jot down the images or the feelings, the viscera of being

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in dream time. I'm really grateful for honing that practice over the years

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because I feel like even if it's a crazy dream or it's just

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a combination of interesting landscapes and humans, I always feel like there's

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things that bubble up later when I re read them and think,

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"Oh, I was working through that," or, "This was coming through."

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So that's a big practice. And I think it sort of depends on

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whether it's a work day or rest day. We have our seed kiva

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here on the land, which is our seed bank and kind of a

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seed temple. So I oftentimes walk out there for a little quiet time

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away from family and kids. But sometimes, it's like grab my planner and

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make sure I got my top three things I need to do that

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day and just really get myself in line for being prepared for the

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day. If I have enough time, I love to do morning pages,

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which is just sort of like free write of just getting it all

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off so we can start the day in a good way.

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And I'm a morning person, so I'm usually the first up. And as

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a mom, yeah, just having that quiet time where I can just,

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I guess I always say, put my head on straight for the day.

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Something I'm noticing from both of you is coming to this place of

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mindfulness, whether that's reaching for a journal or taking that time to

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settle in. And that brings me to this question:

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What memories come to mind for you when you hear nourishment?

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And how do you carry that forward? That's a beautiful question.

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I love that word, "nourishment" so much. It speaks to something so spiritual

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and so deeply comfortable and sort of this multi layered, multi dimensional

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sense of deep wellness that comes from that word, whether it's food or

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nourishing relationships. But when I think about memories around nourishment,

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I think back to times where I really have felt the most comforted

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and cared for. And I think so much of that has come from

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the love with which that nourishment was offered. After college, I had moved

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to India for several months to start a mobile health clinic,

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and I ended up being through a non government organization that was based

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on a farm. And I ended up spending a lot of my time

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cooking for the farm workers and the staff of the non profit.

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And that memory of feeding hundreds of people, really, lunch and dinner,

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and cooking entirely with the produce that we had harvested on the farm

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with many other women in the kitchen, just laughing, but also working very

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fast and hard to get pounds of rice cooked, and loads of squash

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and tomatoes and egg plants, and all these spices, and the okra,

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and everything sauteed together, and then go down the rows of just pouring

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food onto these banana leaves for everyone. I think about that visceral

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memory of serving others and serving people who are doing such good work,

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but also, the togetherness and love and laughter with which we created that

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food. That memory was the embodiment of what I still hold so near

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and dear about that feeling of nourishment, of just

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being loved, and cared for, and well fed, and having it be fresh

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and of the earth. Geeta, you said it so beautifully, which is that

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nourishment is so much more than just having a belly full.

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It's the whole holistic feeling of the way in which we care deeply

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for one another. And I come from a long line of women who

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come from big families who never can cook just a small little meal

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for two or three, but always cook for the masses. I grew up

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having my mom drag me around to all these community events where food

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was always this anchoring grounding point. There was always a meal.

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And then I raised my kids the same way, which is that them

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growing up in the indigenous food sovereignty movement. Whenever we'd go

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to a conference or a gathering where I feel like everybody is always

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saying, "I really just come here 'cause the food is so good."

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But why is the food so good? Obviously, it's the ingredients.

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But there's something there which, Geeta, you spoke to so beautifully,

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which is that part of the agreement that these traditional foods have with

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us as humans is that they bring us together. And all of the

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laughter and the storytelling that happens behind the scenes with all the

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women gossiping back in the kitchen, and the collective energy, that comes

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into the food, and that's a huge part of our value system in

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the native kitchen. We keep a good mind and we keep that good

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presence as we prepare our food. And so I just love knowing that

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in the same way that my mom ensured that we were in places

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where we ate really good food cooked by aunties and grandmas,

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that my kids, too, the food memories that they're gonna carry and bring

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into their adulthood and bring into their endeavors in their life are gonna

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be so profound because you always say it's written on the heart.

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Those flavors, the nourishment is written deep in there.

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So as you've been reflecting on family lineages and experiences that have

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shaped you, what are some of the most important lessons that you've learned

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from elders, from within your cultural lines or ancestral connections that

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you feel are shaping and guiding your work today? You know, I've been

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walking this, what I call the seed path, the path with reclaiming and

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restoring relationships with ancestral foods for over 25 years now. And

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the elders who were generous and benevolent enough in the beginning of my

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journey to entrust me with seeds and knowledge and cultural memory,

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they always reminded me that the garden and the earth were growing us

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as humans, right? They were helping us to find our way home.

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We, as indigenous peoples, we live in a post apocalyptic reality right now.

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We had everything completely upended and overturned because of colonization.

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And so these foods and seeds and that

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visceral memory, that blood memory that foods awaken and rehydrate is,

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what's gonna help us to not necessarily go backwards to what was,

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but to be able to see the future of what's possible for landscapes

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of nourishment for our people. And so our sovereignty and liberation as

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a people, as indigenous peoples was inherently and inextricably connected

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to the restoration and revitalization of our food. In addition to that,

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cultural restoration had to be an integral part of bringing back those traditional

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foodways. If we were to realize this dignified resurgence that our ancestors

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had prayed for, and that we, as living descendants, pray and hope for,

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is that we can't forget that there's this cultural element to the revitalization

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of our foods, and the language and stories, and all those rich cosmologies

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that remind us of who we are. Those traditional foods that our ancestors

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a long time ago came into agreement with, when we take them in to our

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bodies, they actually go into our bodies and inform us in ways that

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we can't think into. We can't decolonize or undo harm in a cerebral

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or an intellectual way. It's actually very much about how the body remembers

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how to be resilient, how to be vibrant, how to be living in

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a way that's culturally sane. And so those foods are our messengers and

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they go inside our bodies. And so I've seen it, I've seen elders

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and community members move through significant intergenerational trauma

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through the visceral multisensory experience of growing food, preparing

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food, cooking food, sharing that food. And I think my elders and people

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who've mentored me along the way just reminded me that in order to

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move in that direction, we can't compartmentalize and reduce our actions

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to being a seed keeper, a farmer, or a chef, that they have

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to be all holistically woven together as we move towards that vision of

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what the future of nourishment can be. It's so beautiful to hear your

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stories around your elders. My parents came from India to the states,

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and everyone else stayed behind. Our whole community and culture was having

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to be held dearly and carefully by this little small family that half

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of whom were born here in this country. My brother and I,

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and we're working hard to assimilate, really, into the culture of living

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in whiteness. So when I think about the depth and richness of what

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you're describing, I realized that so much of the

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wisdom that I was able to get from my family really came directly

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from my parents. And the fortitude and resilience that it really took for

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them to hold tightly and carefully, and with such tender preservation to

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make sure that we continued the rituals and the foods and the traditions

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that they had held so dear when there was really no one else

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around us to hold those things up. So when I think about what

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I learned from them, was that you need to make time to be

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together with your family and with your food.

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So much of what Indian women and Indian aunties do is create experience

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around food as a place of comfort and as a place of love,

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but also as a way of healing. So much of the medicine that's

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offered is offered through spice, through herbs, through food. Those memories

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that I have of trying to grow up in a culture that very

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much did not look at food that way, and also a medical system

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where I was being trained that did not value food in that deep

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healing sensibility, it just is poignant to think about the responsibility

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that's really put upon immigrants who come here to hold those things and

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to pass them on. Yeah. Just to add to that, Geeta, is that

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in a lot of ways, there's a similarity even with those of us

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who are indigenous to this very land because of the impacts of assimilation

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and acculturation that happened. And so for me, I'm grateful to those elders

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who, I think against all odds, recognize that there were seeds and stories

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and ceremonies that needed to go underground during a time of great cultural

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upheaval here. And my parents and grandparents and even great grandparents

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struggled with keeping them alive even in our household. And so in some

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ways, as a young woman, coming back around to seeking out those elders

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and those people who kept the seeds of that cultural memory alive,

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when many of us, as indigenous peoples, couldn't do that because up until

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1979, it was illegal to do a lot of those things.

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So I agree that I think there's the fortitude of those who,

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against all odds, like your parents keeping the seeds of those things alive

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when the forces of whiteness and assimilation are so strong. There's a violence

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there, you know? Thinking about even just the roles that both of you

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play as seed keeper and as physician, and a number of other community

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hats that you're wearing, what you're sharing about literal seeds that hold

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memory, as well as seeds of practice and memory;

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in the work that you're doing and that you're part of and you're

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seeing, what does it mean if we had a values based food system?

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Even though we are all indigenous to Turtle Island, each community has its

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individual values and unique cultural expression. But there is an underlying

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sense of values that really crosses many of these different tribal communities.

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We talk a lot about what does it mean to push back against

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the exploitative and extractive, and how do we create an embodied movement

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that, in all actions, pledges that we will not invest in economic systems

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or political systems that actively harm what we love. Because we do really

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approach our community movement work in a way that says that we carry

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our communities in the same way that we carry our children,

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right? We are relatives of that land, we are descendants of that land.

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We're actually lineal descendants of the foods and seeds that we eat.

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They're actually embedded in these beautiful ways into our cosmologies and

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into our ceremonies. And in some ways, I think the most compelling English

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word that could encapsulate an understanding of it is this concept of kincentric,

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like K I N, kincentric foodways. So we've really been working in community

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to flesh that out and to really speak into what is a relational

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kincentric food system or landscape of nourishment look like.

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And I actually cringe when I hear the word "food system"

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because I think that it's so sterile. It feels so reductionist.

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And that's where I am inviting our community all the time to think

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about what are the ways in which we can speak about food that,

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at its heart, has a culture and belonging and has a culture of

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care. And so that's, I think, a big part of the value based

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landscape of nourishment, where people understand who they are in the mycelial

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web of life. They understand that there's inherent responsibility to not

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only ensure that we, as humans, are fed and nourished and sheltered and

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clothed, but that we're in right relationship with all of our other relatives.

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I really think it's all about moving beyond this era of Anthropocene and

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moving into this more symbiotic relationality again. And I think a lot of

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the times, because we've been so colonized and deeply conditioned by extracted

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capitalism and hierarchical leadership, that oftentimes, we default into

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solutions that are actually just a mash up of harmful

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systems that don't actually help us in the long run. Yeah, yes. Ditto, Rowen.

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I think from where I sit, another somewhat archaic term of a healthcare

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system, which is another term that I also really buck up against because

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whenever we start talking about these intrinsic human primal aspects of

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our being, like our food and our health, and we try to

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fit that ethereal power into a system, we would start running into problems

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right at that moment. And it's not to say there shouldn't be strategy

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to be able to take care of the billions of people on the

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planet now 'cause we do. But to your question around a values based

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system, I think the two terms almost don't belong in the same sentence,

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to have value in a system. I think that we need to have

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a whole different framework that can hold a devotion to land and farming

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and farmers and seeds and soil. And also understand the relationship that

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this plays into community building and equity, and being in good relationship

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with one's own health. And in healthcare, I think the system itself has

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become so gangly that it's not even understood by the people who are

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working within it. We can't even figure out the system that we've created

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and how to make it work for the people it was created for.

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And so there needs to be a more fluid, and

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to use your term, Rowen, a mycelial sensibility. The minute we start systematizing,

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we just separate. And there was a time in all of our ancestral

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paths where these things were all combined and they worked quite beautifully.

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But power struggles and colonization often have fooled us into believing

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that these are all separate entities. Peace, y'all. I'm Mark Winston Griffith,

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an alumnus of the Castanea Fellowship Program. As the Executive Director

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of the Brooklyn Movement Center, I was looking for a community of peers

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who also saw a world where food truly became a source of health,

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equity and well being for all. Castanea brought those very leaders together

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and invested in us to make it happen. Since then, I've collaborated with

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a cadre of Castanea fellows on a national initiative to hold philanthropy

this question: 00:19:37

accountable, and have tapped into game changing support for my food systems

this question: 00:19:41

work here in Central Brooklyn. So I'm looking forward to what's ahead in

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my professional, as well as my personal journey, along with following impact

this question: 00:19:48

I know my friends from the program will continue to make.

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Learn how Castanea can support your journey. Visit castaneafellowship.org.

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That's C A S T A N E A F E L L

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O W S H I P.org. You've both spoken to this illusion of

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separateness. From your vantage points, how do you see the possibility of

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bridging stronger relationships between different roles so we could have

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a more just food system or food kinship network? How do you see

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those collaborations being made more possible? We're at a point in time

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in the movement, especially for many black indigenous bodies of culture,

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we're moving out of the immensity of the trauma and moving into a

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place where we're resourced to be able to think about what does it

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mean to not just be in survival mode ourselves, and to begin to

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do that bridging work and that connectivity work. I think we're also at

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a time in history where we're actually experiencing

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a leadership crisis. And the reason why I say that in this particular

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instance is because I think that we need a more facilitative type of

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leadership that can actually take a step back and begin to weave those

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pathways and to begin to restore that mycelial network that once existed,

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but again, because of the impacts of colonization in all of the ways

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in which it shows up and deadens those pathways and gets us into

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a more reductionist point of view, is that when we have brilliant leaders

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that are hosts, as opposed to heroes, and can host and facilitate intercultural

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conversations, interdisciplinary spaces where we begin to practice strengthening

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that connective tissue between the arts and horticulture, or spirituality

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and devotional reverent practice. And as Geeta was speaking about, these

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were all deeply, deeply interwoven aspects of intact culture and cultural

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sanity. And I get really excited because I love thinking in all the

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ways in which we can facilitate unexpected conversations between people

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in that spectrum of seed keepers talking with chefs, and farmers talking

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with doctors, and engineers talking with medicine people. There's all these

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ways in which we can strengthen that connective tissue, but it does require

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us to cultivate leadership where it's more about strengthening the skills

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to be able to host conversations where we see the common ground alongside

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one another. We live in a time where a culture of divisiveness and

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separation and difference has been supporting this very extractive and exploitative

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system, and so I get really excited. One growing edge of my work

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is to work with emerging leaders and teach them how to hold space

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and nurture them for seeing what is on the horizon and how we

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can cultivate that more holistic way of living again. I think the biggest

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epidemic of our time is pathological individualism. It's just so many people

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thinking that we're all doing it ourselves. And I think in the United

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States, especially, it's so deeply entrenched in American culture. And so

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I think all of us here in the circle here are working in

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radical ways to restore that connective tissue of interdependence, and that

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there's a whole breadth and range of different humans getting together who

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may not have otherwise had the chance to be able to circle up

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and help teach one another. Yeah, I'm so with you on that.

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That reflection of that pathological individuality, how it shows up in the

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physical body is really profound. I think that our mental health has suffered

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so deeply around this idea that we are supposed to be thriving through

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our own individual efforts, which is a true impossibility. We are herd animals.

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It's truly impossible for us to succeed completely on our own,

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and yet, it's a strong value in our country and in all of

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our systems that we've created, that your health and your education and

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your income and your way of being in the world should be something

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you achieve through your own effort. That sets us up for divisiveness and

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separation because we know there's not equitable resources for all of us

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to even be able to achieve those things individually or even in community,

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at times. I see people who are really physically sick. I think this

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interdisciplinary work, this cross pollination that all of us here have

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experienced in our work is so rich. It's so uplifting and empowering in

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a way that staying within our own communities, whether professional or even

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just within our own cultural communities cannot quite provide until we step

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out and start doing that cross pollination work. And

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yesterday, I was teaching my Food is Power class, and I was able

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to come in with my medical students and go to the south side

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of Chicago and teach with and beside middle schoolers around how to think

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about food as medicine and food as power. And reminding them that they are

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experts of their food, that they are our food experts, and they are

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teaching us and we are teaching them. For me, it's just very,

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very powerful to see medical students and middle schoolers together in an

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interaction that does not involve a child being sick and coming to the

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doctor, or a medical student going out into the community to provide free

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care. They are working truly together and seeing each other as people working

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towards the same thing, and in this case, this is just creating a

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meal together. And also chatting about, "Okay, how did you

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get on the path to become a doctor? How did you get to

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medical school?" It's in those conversations, it is in those brilliant sparkling

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moments of actual face to face community connection and interchange that

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we can realize that the hierarchies built around us to make certain people

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feel more powerful than others are, you know, they're creations, they're

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imaginary. I just feel so moved when I see these students of different

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ages and different spaces working together because I don't know what impact

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they're having on each other, but I know that they are.

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And working with youth, I think, is one of the most powerful things

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that we can do to start creating a different vision of what's possible

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because they can see it. Knowing that both of you are so involved

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with cultivating leadership, mentorship spaces, holding space, I wanted

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How do you encourage young folks who might be emerging

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into their political consciousness right now? You know, as Rowen, as you

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had shared, this is just such an exceptional time that we're in as

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a society, as humanity. And Geeta, you were sharing about just this depth

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that can happen when you bring people together in a room.

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What have been some things that you've wanted to impart or encourage the

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young folks who are navigating where to go to next, if they want

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to have a connection to food work? Yeah, it's a great question.

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You know, when I came into this work, I was 17,

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and the movement that is now in 2021,

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in the late '90s, was not what it was. There was a lot

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of elders who were shocked that somebody like myself was interested in pursuing

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this as my life's work. But in the last 20, 25 years,

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we've seen a significant culture shift, and I think that is because many

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of the foresighted elders and leaders of the movement recognized that we

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cannot build a movement that doesn't have all of the generations involved,

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that this is inherently important that we bridge the generations. I'm raising

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teens now, and I'm learning a lot from a practice of being a

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parent of teenagers in recognizing what incredible leaders that we have

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right amidst us. Somebody said to me recently, which I was profoundly impacted,

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If you're over 40 and you don't have a mentor who's under

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25, that you're missing out on a significant cultural shifts that can happen

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because these young people are coming in, wired, in a way that can

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create significant culture change on the horizon. Even though we do have

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elders and mentors who are 60 plus, we can't forget that we have

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to look to those young ones because they have this radical imagination that

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we can tap into as we dream into the future. And there's also

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an aspect of young people and teenagers, which they are naturally bucking

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up against the system. And if we can make the movement seductive,

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in a way, to teenagers to really push that resistance and move towards

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liberation, I think we can harness that radical energy and that imagination.

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And that's what I've been really loving, seeing in our indigenous food sovereignty

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movement, is the young people coming in with a fire, having inherited an

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extremely broken system and society, and we give them the tools to be

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able to transform that rage and sadness and grief and anger into a

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more beautiful and abundant and nourishing future. And we say, "You have

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a place here. In fact, you have a really significant role in this

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movement," and we empower it and amplify and uplift them in that way.

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I'm absolutely with you on that. I feel so blessed to work with

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college students and medical students who I feel are growing into a future

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that they can see, but just by way of me being where I

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am in my life, I can't at this moment. It's astounding,

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really, to realize the power that our youth have to make significant change

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much faster than we have been able to or that our elders have

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been able to. And so I do think it's quite a blessing,

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but I also feel like I'm taking careful care of cocoons that are

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filled with imaginal cells that have turned to goo, and are in between

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the caterpillar and the butterfly. They're just in that metamorphic goo

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of brilliance and wisdom, and also, that we can see beyond what comes

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next after that step, and that we can shepherd and steward our youth

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into their own brilliance without holding over them a constricted and restricted

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view of what's possible. But as a minority voice in the system,

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in terms of talking about bringing food and nutrition to the topmost tier

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of what's important in health, to convey that this is a necessary part

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of their education if they're going to take care of people and people's

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health, there are ways in which I think each of us have something

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that light us up that we're so passionate about, and that's where we

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can transmit our light. Yeah, I agree, Geeta. It's interesting 'cause the

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Gen Z generation, even my kids are showing me this amazing Black Forager

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on TikTok who teaches... Oh, my God! Yes! Teaches about how... I just

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saw her, too! She's so amazing! She's cool. And I always think about

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something going viral. We actually talked about it in our household,

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that something going fungal like mycelial, like how can we these... How

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can we change the metaphor, especially after COVID 19? Yeah. Yeah, right?

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Oh, yes. Maybe we can learn how to do that metaphor,

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right? Yeah. Right. But yeah, it's culture work. It's deep culture work

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for us to be able to find humor and find the joy and

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pleasure in all these different ways. And so I think they have their

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finger on the pulse of some tools that blend old and new to

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be able to help us raise the consciousness around the importance of our

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connectivity and relationship to the earth and to plants and to food and

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to medicine and all of these things. Yes. Yeah, it's really inspiring,

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deeply inspiring. It is. It's so fun. That's the one thing that I'm

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like, "Wow!" I feel like I'm so serious compared to some of the

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way that young people are presenting the same work in these really enlivened,

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beautiful, fun and super short snippets that are easily digestible and totally

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seductive and engaging to people," and I think that's brilliant. I think

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we are of a sort of swath of a generation that felt like

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you had to go really deep and really long for really extensive periods

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of time to be able to create expertise. And they're showing us something

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different. And there's a part of me that wants to say,

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"No, that isn't how you build expertise in TikToks." You know, they're too

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short and they're too produced. But I'm watching through my teens and through

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my medical students how much new information they're able to take in that

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way, and then decide where they wanna go deep.

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And that is brilliant to me. That's the key to learning. It's totally leaning.

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Yeah. Yeah, and it's actually generating the capacity for us to change narrative;

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the role of narrative, and the role of story, and the role of

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being able to create a platform where everyday voices can be uplifted.

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We can see ourselves in that young woman who's finding food right outside

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of her doorstep and learning about the plants that are right in her

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midst. And young people can identify and see themselves in her.

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It's amazing. So what are the ways in which we are creating pleasure

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practices in our work that really, again, bring in that multisensory joy

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into our work? And I'm continually inspired and amazed by the young folks'

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ability to do that. Power to the youth. This is so incredibly juicy.

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And we're coming to the end of this conversation, but I just want

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to ask any advice or encouragement from the both of you on one

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simple thing that you think anyone can do that can make a huge

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difference in their own homes or on local communities. I've apprenticed

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myself to seeds, and I see that they are these intimate immensities. They're

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so small, but they're so amazing and magnificent, and create ripples beyond

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their little bodies. And what I like to invite folks who are listening

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is to remember that each and every one of us descend from people,

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maybe even just a generation or two removed from people who had a

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deep storied relationship with plants and land and the Earth.

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We have the capacity, through joyful pleasure practices, of reconnecting

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with seeds that perhaps were ancestral to our people, that can help rehydrate

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and re enliven and restore a sense of connection and identity to the

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nourishment that passes in our body. And my body of work called Seed

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Seva, which is getting people to apprentice themselves to the life cycles

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all around us, we always begin with people just choosing one food that

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perhaps was a food that fed their ancestors, which is actually what got

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me onto this path of being a seed keeper myself, was asking myself

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that question and, what responsibility do I have to be one link in

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the stewardship chain? And so connecting with an ancestral food is a really

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deep and powerful way of bringing it into something real and visceral in

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your own life. Also, another aspect of that is connecting to the indigenous

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peoples upon whose land that you reside. Many of us are very aware

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in the social justice movement of land acknowledgements. But take it one

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step further and begin to build relationships with those peoples in the

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way in which you can leverage resources, perhaps passing the mic,

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and centering and amplifying their thought leadership. Take land acknowledgements,

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indigenous land acknowledgements that step further and begin to build those

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reciprocal relationships with the people whose land you reside upon.

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That's powerful, Rowen. You know, a lot of my work really revolves around

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the idea of what medicine really is, what it really means to us

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as humans, and what it's meant to us over generations and over epics

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of time. And that word, "medicine" includes so much that we can access

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every day and in every way. There's food that is medicine,

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and there are plants that we know are strong medicine. All plants have

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medicinal qualities that can be discovered by any individual.

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If you ask some questions or just take some time to look back

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into your own family story, finding what those medicines are and what they

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have meant to you and your culture over time is one way to

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easily and quickly and affordably access medicine that is all around us.

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I ask people to take back that word, "medicine", and to really

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find the medicines in your own life that hold great potential for healing

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for you. In my life, personally, I really feel like love is the

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strongest medicine that holds me up every day. And it is possible for

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us to be loving every day. It is possible for us to show

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love through random acts of love and kindness to the people you love

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and people you don't know. And using your influence and your talent,

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whatever it may be, to help people around you; this transformational daily