Shownotes
This week, I sit down with Paul Sutton, host of the Digital Download Podcast, a show about digital communications strategy, social media marketing, and the internet.
Each week, Paul discusses a specific area of digital media with an expert in their field.
Paul is also a vocal advocate of mental health awareness in the communications industry, and uses his own personal battle with mental illness to continue the discussion around this important topic.
I don't get people on; I address topics.
Paul talks about how he came to start his podcast, and why he didn't have any expectations of the show lasting beyond a season. He shares why some of his favourite episodes are the ones where his guests have a very contrary view of the communications industry.
Is Clubhouse a Replacement for Podcasting?
We also talk about why he wouldn't want to launch a podcast today. However, this isn't because he feels podcasting is being superseded by the likes of Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces - far from it.
Despite the millions of users making Clubhouse the latest darling of the tech world, Paul sees it as a short-term snack in the content ecosystem.
We are in an on-demand world. I can't imagine using that format once the novelty had worn off.
He cites the example of his friend in the UK who set an alarm for 3.00am in the morning, so she could hop on a Clubhouse chat in the US, and questions whether users will have that kind of dedication regularly.
Raising Awareness of Mental Health Issues in the Communications Industry
One thing Paul has been very vocal about in recent years is his own battles with mental health, and how much of a problem this is in the communications industry.
With so many communications professionals spending so much time on social media for their jobs, Paul discusses if that has an impact on mental wellness, including:
- whether social media impacts our mental health, or our mental health dictates our use of social media
- why he really left Facebook
- how scared he was about raising the topic of his own mental health battles
- what needs to be done to reduce mental health issues in high stress industries
Paul's own experience on this topic makes for some very open and personal insights into why there's still a problem, and what can be done to improve things.
That was a bad time, but I have grown as a person and in my life and I think that's a valuable thing to do.
Join us for a lively and insightful chat about the changing landscape of work, how it impacts our personal lives, and why even the darkest times can be a springboard for the lives we lead today.
Connect with Paul:
Contact me: danny@podcasterstories.com
My equipment:
- Electro-Voice RE320
- Focusrite Scarlett Solo 3rd Gen Audio Interface
- Denon DJ HP-1100 Over Ear Headphones
- Podcast Pro Boom Arm by Accu-Lite and O.C. White
Recommended resources:
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp
Transcripts
I think everyone has to take some times, sometimes you
Speaker:just think, you know what? I think there were certain
Speaker:times in my life where it sucked. It really sucks,
Speaker:but look where I am now. So I think, I
Speaker:think you're right. And I'm sure you, you've got things
Speaker:in your life as well. Where do you look back
Speaker:and go, what do you know what that was a
Speaker:bad time, but I have grown as a person and
Speaker:in my life and everything else that's come on. I
Speaker:mean, you know, you, you've got kids in and a
Speaker:wife and things, and you must think the same thing
Speaker:at times. And I think that's a valuable thing to
Speaker:do.
Speaker:Hi and welcome to Podcaster Stories. Each episode, we will
Speaker:have a conversation with Podcast from across the globe and
Speaker:share their story. What motivates them by the start to
Speaker:the show are the crucial And More, we will also
Speaker:talk about their personal lives and some of the things
Speaker:that have happened at Midem, the person who we are
Speaker:today, and now here's your host, Danny Brown. Hi, and
Speaker:welcome to another episode of Podcast Stories where we get
Speaker:to meet the people behind the voices of the show
Speaker:is we will listen to this weak. We've got Paul
Speaker:Sutton, who's our fashion NISTA Xtrordinair. And we'll talk about
Speaker:this piece. The shirt's probably, I have to say Normal
Speaker:to give them a lot of grief about that. Paul
Speaker:was the host of the Digital Download Podcast, which is
Speaker:a show about digital communications strategy, social media marketing, and
Speaker:the internet.
Speaker:So a Paul, welcome to the show. How about you
Speaker:introduced yourself and your podcast?
Speaker:Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, I I've been running my
Speaker:podcast now for three years or so. And like you
Speaker:say, it's about digital communications and strategy and, and our
Speaker:cover a whole wide range of things really from, I
Speaker:don't know if the future of the internet to social
Speaker:media tactics, to, you know, the mental health and health
Speaker:impacts of the, into all sorts of stuff. I'm, I've
Speaker:been working in marketing communications for 20 odd years now.
Speaker:I'm really getting to a halt as my 50th birthday
Speaker:next year and a year younger than me. Not that
Speaker:I'm not sure. Anyway, so yeah, I I've been working
Speaker:on that for 20 years. The last six have, which
Speaker:have been as an independent consultant, which I love doing
Speaker:it's I have to say the last given what's happened
Speaker:in the last year, it's probably in my view, it
Speaker:is, it's probably the best sort of thing that you
Speaker:could have been doing.
Speaker:'cause, you know, I've always had control over my own
Speaker:destiny for the last six years anyway. So things like
Speaker:working from home and everything else that's been going on
Speaker:in a kind of second nature anyway, really.
Speaker:And you mentioned that obviously the Podcast had been gone,
Speaker:but I think since 2018, no, at the beginning of
Speaker:2018. And so how do we come up with a
Speaker:new idea or was it something that it just came
Speaker:naturally? Or is it something you saw and opportunity for
Speaker:it? Or
Speaker:I had been kind of badgered about starting a podcast
Speaker:for a year or two. I mean, I was aware
Speaker:at the time that Podcasts were kind of taken off
Speaker:of them and listen to ship, I had started to
Speaker:grow quite rapidly because of everything, you know, we're on
Speaker:four G and mobile devices and that sort of stuff,
Speaker:which we are, which would kind of know about, and
Speaker:people kept saying to me, I should start a podcast,
Speaker:but I didn't know anything about it. Like literally nothing.
Speaker:I didn't know what went into it. I didn't know
Speaker:the editing, the publishing process or nothing. And so I
Speaker:started it really as kind of an experiment to, to
Speaker:learn about Podcasting. And I started it with no expectation
Speaker:that it would last more than one season.
Speaker:I did a season of 10 shows. I think it
Speaker:was in the first, the first lot. And it really
Speaker:was a case of, well, let's do 10, see how
Speaker:it goes. And like I said, I had no expectations
Speaker:if I go any further, But three years later where
Speaker:we are now.
Speaker:And then you mentioned you had no expectations, you know,
Speaker:for it to maybe go beyond the initial 10 episodes.
Speaker:So knowing that you've made just have 10 episodes or
Speaker:what were the original goals for the show and how's
Speaker:that maybe changed over time
Speaker:And the original goals? I think, I think thinking back
Speaker:I wanted to cover 10, quite different areas of digital
Speaker:communications at that time. So if I remember rightly my
Speaker:first 10 episodes, including things like, I don't know how
Speaker:to, how to make the best use of photography for
Speaker:social media, for example. And I did one on the
Speaker:users on the internet and how they were changing. I
Speaker:did one where I interviewed the CIP or a prisoner
Speaker:at that time about what she was expecting to come
Speaker:through in the next year in the PR I did
Speaker:one with our friend, Jenny Dietrich.
Speaker:I basically pulled in a lot of favors in those
Speaker:first 10 to get me up and running an ad.
Speaker:And the way I saw it, if I was interviewing
Speaker:out of those 10 episodes, maybe if I, if, if
Speaker:maybe half or six or seven of those were with
Speaker:people I knew really well, then it felt like the
Speaker:risk of doing, if there is such a thing was
Speaker:made at least three years later, I think of it
Speaker:very differently. I come up with episode ideas just depending
Speaker:on what I'm thinking about that as much as anything,
Speaker:I don't have any goals in terms of what I
Speaker:start a season. I don't have any goals or if
Speaker:I want to cover XYZ, ed, you know, all of
Speaker:these different topics, I, I start off with four or
Speaker:five in mind and kind of let it evolve from
Speaker:there.
Speaker:So I probably would approach it in a very different
Speaker:way than the, you know, when I started out.
Speaker:Okay. And you mentioned Jenny Dietrich there and she's been
Speaker:on now about three or four times, I think at
Speaker:last count. How much is she paying you?
Speaker:Yeah, she has been on quite a lot. I have
Speaker:two roommates. The reason that I get her back around
Speaker:quite a lot of it is purely because those episodes
Speaker:seem to get a good response. So don't tell her
Speaker:that
Speaker:I'm going to get cut that from the edit of
Speaker:the show. Absolutely. She is not getting to know that.
Speaker:As you mentioned, You interview guests and they share the
Speaker:thoughts on how listeners can see improved or digital communications
Speaker:or you know, topics to do with that. So you
Speaker:mentioned photography and social media, etc. But you also have
Speaker:guests on a possibly truly that tale of the industry
Speaker:or a new one. Yeah. So do you have a
Speaker:preference for either, but what, how do you find your
Speaker:reaction to these kind of different episodes?
Speaker:No, I love having different opinions on it. I really
Speaker:do. And, and I think you were the first person
Speaker:to come on my podcast, who, who did that. And
Speaker:I loved the fact that that, that show went out.
Speaker:'cause if I think back back to my F my
Speaker:first season, and like I say, using the photography while
Speaker:it as an example, because that's what jumped to mind
Speaker:fine. It was a, it was an okay episode, but
Speaker:there was nothing particularly challenging about that. I don't think,
Speaker:and I like the shows to, or at least some
Speaker:of the shows to challenge people. And, you know, you
Speaker:were the first one that did that and, and I've
Speaker:had others on as well where I have just thought
Speaker:this, this is it.
Speaker:It's almost reflecting. What's going on in my head and,
Speaker:and having a third party to, to reinforce in opinions
Speaker:that I may be have. I think he is great.
Speaker:And I love the fact that it challenges people. I
Speaker:love the fact that you can do to get quite
Speaker:a good response from those sorts of things. Some of
Speaker:them are the most listened to episodes that I've done
Speaker:have been where people have expressed opinions or said things
Speaker:that are a bit more controversial. And to me, that's
Speaker:a great thing.
Speaker:Do you ever find that on that topic, do you
Speaker:ever find that some guests might not want to come
Speaker:on to offer her a C or a contract of
Speaker:view because they are fearful of the, the blow back
Speaker:that makes it either online or, or, or even from
Speaker:say clients or such as
Speaker:I'm trying to think if I have people ever, I,
Speaker:I suppose it, in three years, I've probably only had
Speaker:maybe three or four people turn down the opportunity to
Speaker:come on. When you get somewhat on who you think
Speaker:is going to be, I suppose, where we are not,
Speaker:if I think about it, the more controversial ones I
Speaker:am inviting people on hoo I know are, are going
Speaker:to be prepared to voice an opinion. So I'm not
Speaker:going to try and trap them into saying something. They
Speaker:know what they come in on this show for. And
Speaker:it's all, you know, we we've, we've discussed it previously.
Speaker:So, so if I'm, if I'm approaching those sort of
Speaker:subject, so I'm, I'm talking to people who I know
Speaker:have those opinions anyway, you know?
Speaker:No, it makes sense. Yeah, it was just good. I
Speaker:know sometimes at, at, at least depending on our podcast
Speaker:show topics, it can be harder to get guests to
Speaker:speak about a certain topic. And I'm just curious is
Speaker:special with the, you know, there are a social media
Speaker:and making it so easy to get your Ricoh it
Speaker:a career Pitchfork. Why do you get like a rig
Speaker:this, of what I have to take my God and
Speaker:rake to you for? So you had mentioned earlier about
Speaker:you'd started a podcast and I guess people were mentioning
Speaker:it to you, ah, back in 2018. Now I know,
Speaker:I like to do a lot of communicators are talking
Speaker:about the Podcast Boom today and how businesses can take
Speaker:advantage of it. But as I mentioned back in may
Speaker:18, you actually publish an episode about this very topic
Speaker:and how to take advantage of Podcasts and for a
Speaker:PR business, et cetera, what was it that you sold
Speaker:then that people like a fellow peers didn't and know,
Speaker:they're sort of seeing that if you'd like,
Speaker:I guess that, that was that first season that I
Speaker:did. So I did this season of 10 or 11
Speaker:episodes. Like I say, no expectations. I, I did it
Speaker:to learn about Podcasting, having done that, the response I
Speaker:had, two, those 10 or 11 episode was far beyond
Speaker:anything I have probably ever done in, in terms of
Speaker:personal marketing. It, it, it, you know, I mean, I've
Speaker:been blogging for 10 years before that. And I, and
Speaker:I think that the blogging side of things, I had
Speaker:become bored, I was running out of ideas or things
Speaker:talk about, and it was just this whole new format.
Speaker:And, and those that first season, just, just like a
Speaker:light bulb, it made me think, do you know what
Speaker:everyone should be getting involved in this?
Speaker:I think actually things are different. Now. This is three
Speaker:years on, were talking and there have been so many
Speaker:podcasts in, in my niche anyway. I mean, you know,
Speaker:across the board, but in my niche, there are so
Speaker:many podcasts launched nowadays that talk about, I don't know,
Speaker:PR and comms, and then what have you. And a
Speaker:lot of them are just, I think, a bit vanilla.
Speaker:And in that environment, I think it's more difficult to
Speaker:get cut through. So I, I am pleased that I
Speaker:started at three years ago because I wouldn't put anyone
Speaker:off starting a podcast now at all, because I think
Speaker:there's a great format, but I think it's more challenging
Speaker:now than it was three years ago.
Speaker:Yeah. And especially, I know that there's been a lot
Speaker:of talk online with the likes of Clubhouse and Twitter
Speaker:Spaces, et cetera, almost taking it away from like a
Speaker:traditional podcast. And if you like, it was new and
Speaker:medium. So I'd be interested in to see how that,
Speaker:that plays a long. Have you been married at a,
Speaker:the club house at all? Well, I'm an Android user,
Speaker:so now that'd be too. I don't get it.
Speaker:I don't get the privilege, but even though I haven't
Speaker:used it, I, I actually don't believe the hype around
Speaker:Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces. I just don't buy into it
Speaker:because maybe this comes from being a, a, a Podcaster.
Speaker:I think I don't see it as a, as a
Speaker:competitor to Podcasting a toll. I think they are entirely
Speaker:different things. I think, although it's quite brave, a novel
Speaker:to have sort of a, a, a real time media
Speaker:format, we are in an on demand. And I can't
Speaker:imagine ever not ever, I shouldn't tell us a bit
Speaker:strong, but I can't imagine really using that media format
Speaker:once the novelty had worn off.
Speaker:I really can't because I've, for example, I know someone
Speaker:who, who logged into a Clubhouse, a chap a couple
Speaker:of weeks ago, and she set an alarm at three
Speaker:o'clock in the morning in the UK. So she can
Speaker:join a chat that has happened in the States. And
Speaker:that, that, that kind of made me really think that,
Speaker:do you know what there is this whole real time
Speaker:thing? Yes, it's novel. But I, I just don't it,
Speaker:once that novelty is over, you're really going to bother
Speaker:be doing that stuff. And I know maybe people have
Speaker:a different opinion and that is absolutely fine. And I'm
Speaker:trying to get funny enough a podcast about this shortly,
Speaker:because I know people are loving Clubhouse and Twitter Spaces
Speaker:is come a long long, but I just don't buy
Speaker:into it.
Speaker:Yeah. That's definitely a different vibe that I like to
Speaker:shop. I am an Android guy, so haven't tried it.
Speaker:And a lot of my I-phone friends do use it,
Speaker:but at the feedback is, needs to be like this
Speaker:hole, you know, echo chamber. But again, it's like a
Speaker:lot of marketers are talking about marketing and all that,
Speaker:blah, blah, blah. So, and then I don't know if
Speaker:we're missing anything, but we would all go. So what
Speaker:do we, you know, absolutely. Now, obviously you've got to
Speaker:have a wide variety of guests talking about different topics
Speaker:that are in Europe, your space, your niche. And so
Speaker:is there anything that you've taken from your guests and
Speaker:implemented in your own life either personally or professionally?
Speaker:I'm sure there must. I can't think of anything, you
Speaker:know, off the cuff there, but I'm sure there must
Speaker:be 'cause, you know, I, I try and get my
Speaker:guests on who I respect. I come up with a
Speaker:topic idea and the, the, the way I run my
Speaker:podcast is to come up with a topic idea and
Speaker:then find a guest who has relevant to that someone
Speaker:knowledgable or someone I respect or, you know, has got
Speaker:an opinion. So I'm sure you get pitched. And I
Speaker:get pitched increasingly from outreach people saying, do you want
Speaker:to have such and such a go and your podcast?
Speaker:I don't think I've ever, ever accepted one of those
Speaker:pitches because that's not the way I run it. I
Speaker:don't, I don't get people on, I, I address topics.
Speaker:Does that make sense? I'd and if I can explain
Speaker:that,
Speaker:No, no, that, that makes perfect sense. And I like
Speaker:the fact that it's coming from a PR professionals, because
Speaker:as you mentioned that it's a lot of pitches that
Speaker:you can sometimes get 'em and clear to them, never
Speaker:listened to your show. It's just an excuse to come
Speaker:out and sell a book, sell, sell an online course
Speaker:or whatever. So, yeah. I like that approach that you're
Speaker:taking in there where it's really knuckling it down. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, it, it works for me and you
Speaker:know, it is not for everyone, but if it goes
Speaker:back too, you know, we were talking about blogging and
Speaker:I mean, it was the same thing for blogging and
Speaker:it still is. I still get pictures for my blog,
Speaker:even though I've written anything and three years, but you
Speaker:know, it is, it's, it's, it's the same, same thing
Speaker:where Pro people are just reaching out to get people
Speaker:featured. And I mean, I guess, I guess it must
Speaker:work otherwise, you know, if they wouldn't do it, but
Speaker:Oh, no, sorry.
Speaker:You know, one of the episodes that really, I mean,
Speaker:you've got a, a, a, a great back Kellogg, but
Speaker:one of the episodes that really spoke to me, if
Speaker:you like, was we have you in central and how
Speaker:social media has potentially broken us as humans, as human
Speaker:beings. And I think, especially if, you know, at the
Speaker:time the app sort of put a court date up
Speaker:to now, do you think much has changed in society
Speaker:since that episode? Do you think we were getting better?
Speaker:Or what's your feeling on that? Who knows?
Speaker:That's a good question. I mean, you and I see
Speaker:you in as someone who Gen I've had him on
Speaker:twice now, and he has such a bright guy, he
Speaker:he's, you could talk to them for hours, actually. He,
Speaker:he is in the episode, you are referring to what
Speaker:was it about that? Why is social media is broken
Speaker:or a people broken? It was, it was his kind
Speaker:of like the catch line that it intrigued me how
Speaker:things changed. I don't think they have, if I'm really
Speaker:honest. I mean, everything that's happened in the world in
Speaker:the last year has moved things on my opinion. My
Speaker:personal opinion is it hasn't all it's done is accelerate
Speaker:things that were happening already when it comes down to
Speaker:whether social media has changed.
Speaker:I mean, I hear more people taking a step back
Speaker:from it now, and I had funnily enough, talking about
Speaker:You and he's, he's, he's going back to blogging almost.
Speaker:And he is somebody, you, you, you said all of
Speaker:our people, I, I kind of take things from that's.
Speaker:One of the things that it's made me think, Oh,
Speaker:well maybe, or maybe things are coming and a bit
Speaker:in a bit of a circle there, maybe there's room
Speaker:for blogging again. Whereas, you know, like I said, I
Speaker:haven't written anything for three years, so I don't, I
Speaker:don't know the answer to your question really. How have
Speaker:things changed? I guess so, but I think it's too
Speaker:early to really know how that's going to watch it
Speaker:Now. And I'm that topic, social media, and especially with
Speaker:Facebook is a special, is being, you know, hammered recently
Speaker:for that amount of stuff that they leave up. And
Speaker:then there won't be people that take us down. And
Speaker:it's so weird by us that the stuff that should
Speaker:come down remains up in that people that are protesting,
Speaker:that are the ones that get paid back to Facebook
Speaker:or for some reason. And then, so because of that,
Speaker:I mean, social media is being blamed for the increase
Speaker:in mental health issues with depression, numbers spike, and since
Speaker:2095. And in 10, when social media really had its
Speaker:groove, how much do you have a party? You feel
Speaker:social media has to play in our mental well, being
Speaker:in general,
Speaker:This is a really interesting question, because again, going back
Speaker:to my podcast, by the time this comes out, I
Speaker:will have a show out, which is about, well, it
Speaker:covers this topic, actually, someone who has written a book
Speaker:about screen time. And, and part of what she's written
Speaker:about is, is the mental health aspects of being a
Speaker:line all the time. It was interesting talking to her
Speaker:in that it's, it's kind of an unproven actually, when
Speaker:he or she has done loads of research on this
Speaker:and its kind of unproven as to whether using social
Speaker:media or a lot of causes mental health problems, or
Speaker:whether people with mental health problems just use social media
Speaker:a lot. And it was it.
Speaker:I, I, when I think about my own habits, I,
Speaker:I know for example, if I am in not such
Speaker:good mental state eye will be, I will view things
Speaker:that I read on social media very negatively. So I
Speaker:will go onto Twitter and read my Twitter stream and
Speaker:think everyone's an idiot here, or I will post things
Speaker:that are negative. And I don't mean too. It's just,
Speaker:it's a, it's almost like a barometer. I can spot
Speaker:it in myself and think a lot in a minute
Speaker:you are, you've written two to three things recently that
Speaker:are just, just negative. So it's, it's, it's it, it's
Speaker:a diff I think it's a very complex area, actually
Speaker:extremely complex. I mean, what do you think, do you,
Speaker:do you, do you agree with it or
Speaker:No, I, I do. It's like you say, it's a
Speaker:weird one. My, my friend, Sam Fiorella, whose are a
Speaker:mental health speak of an advocate, he, he did a,
Speaker:a, a mass study. What about youth? Because that's a,
Speaker:that's a focus for Sam as like youth mental health.
Speaker:And it shows that those are massive spike in youth
Speaker:mental health issues as new platforms came out. So Instagram,
Speaker:Snapchat, WhatsApp, but once you start to come out and
Speaker:you'd see a, sort of a spike in the mental
Speaker:health, as you know, going back to your question, is
Speaker:that because the kids that had mental health issues were
Speaker:trying to these new apps and that the usual stuff
Speaker:happens when you get like a trawl or a Bulli
Speaker:or someone that on the app, in that cascades into
Speaker:more of a mental health issues, or is it because
Speaker:of the, the apps themselves.
Speaker:So I'd be interested to a listen to that episode
Speaker:and be reading that book because that's, I think to
Speaker:your point, there's a huge discussion to be hard around
Speaker:there. The legacy have social media on mental health.
Speaker:I agree with you. And, and, and, and then another
Speaker:thing that we talked about in this particular episode was
Speaker:how, again, she, she said it and I agreed with
Speaker:her that if you are in not such a good
Speaker:place, you'll find yourself just scrolling endlessly through whatever your
Speaker:chosen channel is without actually having any constructive conversation or
Speaker:any conversation whatsoever often. And that's, that doesn't seem like
Speaker:I could think to me, it's not, you know, I,
Speaker:I don't, I don't see how that can help anyone's
Speaker:mental state to be doing that sort of stuff.
Speaker:Now then you pulled it back from Facebook, your own,
Speaker:going to messenger. Now, I believe, unless you've gotten rid
Speaker:of that as well, but it was that one of
Speaker:the reasons you pulled it back from social media, or
Speaker:is it to spend the kind of family or
Speaker:No, I just, I got sick or Facebook is it's
Speaker:that simple. Now this is going back. I don't know
Speaker:the exact date. I think it's two or three years
Speaker:now, Facebook and Instagram. I just got so sick of
Speaker:them and say in about how I view things negatively,
Speaker:if I'm in a, not a great state mentally, it
Speaker:was almost like that, but it had been going on
Speaker:for months. And I just, I was finding what I
Speaker:was reading from people just totally vacuous of value to
Speaker:me whatsoever, which are used to love, you know, going
Speaker:back 10 years or whenever I used to love that
Speaker:stuff, but it just became increasingly vacuous in an empty.
Speaker:So I, I shut down fate. Well, like I kept
Speaker:my Facebook profile because I do need one for work
Speaker:for what I do, but I basically pulled back right
Speaker:from it two or three years ago. The same with
Speaker:Instagram and, and messenger. Yeah. I, I do have a
Speaker:messenger account, but that's basically to chat to a couple
Speaker:of mates of mine, about a football on that's in
Speaker:it, but I still use Twitter. I still use LinkedIn,
Speaker:but they are professional resources for me. I get professional
Speaker:value from those, which is why we use them. And
Speaker:this is coming from a, you know, a social media
Speaker:consultant. Why do more than that now, but as a
Speaker:social media consultant, who you would think would be one
Speaker:of the biggest advocates for Facebook and Instagram.
Speaker:So maybe that says something I don't know
Speaker:Now. And it was a lot more people. I know
Speaker:we mentioned Jenny earlier, she's on me on Facebook at
Speaker:the moment to post that daily update, all of her
Speaker:COVID situation, right? So we've locked down to a show
Speaker:and what her family is doing and what they are,
Speaker:what our kids to do and what that is doing,
Speaker:et cetera. Yep. And she's only doing it once a
Speaker:day. Never comes on either. So I spent a lot
Speaker:of people take that approach where they're moving back out
Speaker:of the, for personal reasons, you know, I have a
Speaker:wellness reasons, or just, like you said, a professional to
Speaker:really focus on the areas that makes sense for you
Speaker:or your business, for an example. So I think, you
Speaker:know, I can see that heart in a more and
Speaker:more.
Speaker:Yeah. Do you still use Facebook?
Speaker:I do. I'm, I'm trying to use it less like
Speaker:a self. I have to have a profile. They are
Speaker:for the work I do. But apart from that, I
Speaker:spent less time there and maybe it probably more time
Speaker:on Twitter and all right, I've got a good sort
Speaker:of, you know, I'm a craft beer lover, so I've
Speaker:got a good bunch of minutes on Twitter and the
Speaker:same sort of a niche. So we have a, a
Speaker:recommendation, blah, blah.
Speaker:But you gave up Twitter didn't you quite awhile ago
Speaker:now, or was that on the marketing side and you've
Speaker:switched your interest across?
Speaker:Yeah, I did delete my old account because I kept,
Speaker:I kept getting tweets from fans of Danny Brown at
Speaker:the rapper. And he actually treated me a couple of
Speaker:times just to apologize, which was what he did not
Speaker:need to do that. But, so I deleted that one.
Speaker:That was my old account. And then I start a
Speaker:new one maybe a year and a half ago. So
Speaker:I'm like two years, but that's solely towards like a
Speaker:fun craft beer stuff and just show you that. Yep.
Speaker:And that's fun again. I actually enjoy it. I heated
Speaker:it up in my market and why you hate it
Speaker:because it just like you, you mentioned Ella, Paul vacuous
Speaker:statement of fact yes. Tweets, vacuous and people. And so
Speaker:it's more fun now for sure.
Speaker:And it's because you are focused on an interest and
Speaker:I think I wouldn't, well, I was going to say
Speaker:that I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way social
Speaker:media it goes, but then I had talking very personally
Speaker:there and I know I'm always a bit wary of
Speaker:thinking, you know what I think everyone else thinks because
Speaker:it's clearly not the case.
Speaker:No, it was speaking of what you think. I know
Speaker:you've been very open about your own issues of mental
Speaker:health and your role and your own journey of, with
Speaker:mental health. Yeah. Both on your podcast and online. So
Speaker:either on your blog or, you know, Twitter was, how
Speaker:has that been hard to do? What are you ever
Speaker:concerned about what clients or potential clients may think or
Speaker:how what's that been like for you?
Speaker:I'm just trying to think the best way of answering
Speaker:that really. I guess the first time, I, I don't
Speaker:know how you say it came out as having mental
Speaker:health problems. I was sketching. It is, yes. I first
Speaker:wrote it within a blog post, which was, which was
Speaker:about, it was about, ah, you know, pink Floyd at,
Speaker:on the wall. It was about story telling of all
Speaker:things and about how that record tells a story from
Speaker:beginning to end. And it just happens to be about
Speaker:mental health of, of, of the, the protagonist in it
Speaker:as a part of that blog post.
Speaker:I sort of introduced the idea that I have problems
Speaker:and the response I had from that was just amazing.
Speaker:And shortly after that may, maybe, I don't know, two,
Speaker:three, maybe six months after that, I was invited to
Speaker:talk to the chartered Institute of public relations to work
Speaker:at one of their events about mental health issues. And
Speaker:now this is going back when I was still working
Speaker:in an agency at that time. So it's over six
Speaker:years ago. So this is for seven years ago. And
Speaker:at that time, no one was talking about this, no
Speaker:one. And so it was scary in a way, but
Speaker:at the same time I was employed at that time.
Speaker:So it wasn't like I thought I might lose clients.
Speaker:I didn't have, although he got a lot of attention.
Speaker:It wasn't like, I thought this is gonna do me
Speaker:any harm. And I guess even now, I mean, I
Speaker:don't talk about it so much now, but I do
Speaker:still address it and I'm very open about it. And
Speaker:even I I've now started to write a monthly sort
Speaker:of email newsletter, if you like, whatever you want to
Speaker:call it. And in last month's I was talking about
Speaker:part of what I was talking about with seasonal affective
Speaker:depression, which, which I get as, as you know, as
Speaker:a part of this thing that I have. And it
Speaker:was only after I had sent that and I was
Speaker:on a zoom call with a client who I've only
Speaker:had a couple of months and he, he mentioned it
Speaker:and said, Oh, well, I, I read your, your email
Speaker:in and how are you feeling about this and stuff?
Speaker:And, and it was literally, that was, Oh my God,
Speaker:I've got a client who knows this, but people from
Speaker:a client perspective, I'm not aware. I put it this
Speaker:way. I'm not aware of a single person who has
Speaker:ever stopped working with me or not wanted to work
Speaker:with me because of it. I could be wrong, but
Speaker:I don't think that's the case. If anything, people appreciate
Speaker:the fact that you are a bit vulnerable and a
Speaker:bit open and honest. And especially now, because let's face
Speaker:everyone around the world has had a shit time in
Speaker:the last year. And just being a bit vulnerable and
Speaker:open and honest and candid about this stuff.
Speaker:I don't think it's a bad thing personally,
Speaker:Do you guys to see and more people talk about
Speaker:it and the people that are, as you mentioned, that
Speaker:you might be surprised because I think we're social. Everybody
Speaker:tends to look at other peoples lives and think, Oh,
Speaker:that's perfect. You know, John's doing as opposed to a
Speaker:nurse Jenny's to a nurse, et cetera. I, and we
Speaker:don't get to you to see that. So it's, it's,
Speaker:it's, it's good to see that, that people are opening
Speaker:up a bow it for sure.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker:And I think that the coms industry as well, when
Speaker:we think about it, like Pro in particular can be
Speaker:a very demanding industry. Do you think does may be
Speaker:more issues around mental health and, and burn out, especially,
Speaker:and, and the PR industry, and if so, what can
Speaker:be done? What, what have you seen that, but that
Speaker:you think can be done, right?
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, I, I get in, this is my
Speaker:personal opinion. I don't have any, anything specific to back
Speaker:this up, but I have long believed that that industry
Speaker:itself is, is rife with, with mental health problems. And
Speaker:I mean, you know, like I said, I started talking
Speaker:about it a six, seven years ago in the time
Speaker:in the last six or seven years, more and more
Speaker:and more people have talked about it. More studies have
Speaker:been done, you know, you, they used to say, well,
Speaker:it's sort of one in 10 people or one in
Speaker:six people. And it's now down to sort of one
Speaker:in three people or one in two people. So it's
Speaker:almost like people now who are prepared to, to talk
Speaker:about it more than they ever have been.
Speaker:So you had mentioned earlier, a you've been at home
Speaker:know for six, seven years. Ah, and you're a consultancy.
Speaker:So you were pretty much an old Pro are remote
Speaker:work in our old yes. Well, old and Pro, but
Speaker:cool. We'll see, we'll see where this goes out. I
Speaker:have it, I see a lot of people online too,
Speaker:that have really struggled to adapt to it a more
Speaker:remote work in during the COVID and they can't wait
Speaker:to get back to the office. Do you ever see
Speaker:yourself working in an office again? Or are you, you
Speaker:have a home body now?
Speaker:God, no. I even before all of this happened, the
Speaker:thought of going and working back in an office now
Speaker:fills me with Hora. And I know that this is
Speaker:partly a personality thing though, in that I am very
Speaker:happy working at home by myself. I don't, I don't
Speaker:feel the need to be around people all the time.
Speaker:Whereas people with different personality traits, you know, may have
Speaker:missed that. They missed the, the hub, the, the, the
Speaker:office, that everything that goes on, if they miss people.
Speaker:So again, like, like, as I said earlier, it its
Speaker:wrong for me to do it for me to assume
Speaker:what other people might think.
Speaker:But just the, if I had to get it, put
Speaker:it this way, if, if, if my consultancy went down
Speaker:the path and I had to get a job and
Speaker:going back to work in an office, I, I honestly
Speaker:cannot imagine doing that now. I just can't.
Speaker:Now I hear you. Yeah. I mean, I've been at
Speaker:home probably for four years now were thinking now it's
Speaker:just nice to wake up knowing that you can spend
Speaker:breakfast with our kids and ease the end of the
Speaker:day, as opposed to rushing, to get out the door
Speaker:and stuff like that.
Speaker:And the NSA, it's not like it's all brilliant because
Speaker:you know, kids get home with our bus three, wherever
Speaker:it is. And I find it very difficult to work
Speaker:after half past three, but that that's part of adapting.
Speaker:I have, I think what, when you work at home,
Speaker:you have control over when you work and how you
Speaker:work. So I might get up, I don't know, six
Speaker:o'clock in the morning and start work. And if I've
Speaker:got loads on or I might quit at half past
Speaker:three, and then start working again at AARP off seven,
Speaker:when the kids go to bed, but more often than
Speaker:not, I adjust, I just shift my working day around
Speaker:the family. So I, you know, I am spending a
Speaker:bit more time with them and it, I'm not having
Speaker:to rush out the door like you said, or, or
Speaker:rush back it's it's it just suits me so much
Speaker:better to work like that.
Speaker:So you were Podcasts had been gone for three years
Speaker:now and you were, let's say an early adopter of
Speaker:the podcast space for, for your industry or at least
Speaker:not only from the, the, the, the PR leaders at,
Speaker:I know when you have any pieces of advice for
Speaker:new Podcasts coming out in this space, she had mentioned
Speaker:it earlier about, no, you wouldn't want to start one
Speaker:today, but if you watch that on, what did do,
Speaker:what advice would you give
Speaker:My advice would be to try and do something different
Speaker:to everyone else? I know that sounds obvious, but what
Speaker:I mean by that is, think about your format because
Speaker:in my space, a lot of the podcast that have
Speaker:started recently in the last year or so are straight
Speaker:interviews between one person in another, and they all ask
Speaker:similar questions and have similar production values. And it's almost
Speaker:like no one has, has, has really thought about, well,
Speaker:what I did going back a year.
Speaker:So I had been going to years and done pretty
Speaker:much hadn't mucked around with the format very much in
Speaker:that time. Although I, I did muck around with putting
Speaker:sound effects in and, and adding music here and there,
Speaker:and just, just to make things up really, and just
Speaker:to experiment. And then last year I'd been listening to
Speaker:Podcast, like reply. All I think is an amazing podcast
Speaker:and science versus, and some of the Gimlet media podcasts.
Speaker:And what I love about them is that the formats
Speaker:in them that they are not, they don't stick to
Speaker:something formulaic, or I guess Each Podcasts. And I tried
Speaker:to listen to things and think, well, what do I
Speaker:like about each one?
Speaker:And Pro started producing some episodes, which are, which are
Speaker:a bit different. And now when I, when I put
Speaker:an episode out, I add a narrative to it. I
Speaker:try sometimes I have one guest and it's, I record
Speaker:it as an interview, but I will introduce narrative elements
Speaker:to it. So I'm trying to break the format up
Speaker:a little bit. Other times I will introduce three or
Speaker:four guests in a, in a show and I will
Speaker:write a narrative that joins all of their little bits
Speaker:of, of conversation together. And it's just, I think, anyway,
Speaker:I hope it's interesting and different to the other podcasts
Speaker:in my niche.
Speaker:And that would be my advice to anyone starting a
Speaker:podcast now is to look at the others in your
Speaker:niche because there will be there and try and do
Speaker:something. That's just a bit different to them.
Speaker:Nah, love that. If I could say to, to your
Speaker:point, I know I still get a new Podcasts or
Speaker:is it just want you to be the next door
Speaker:or him and you think, well, is that really your
Speaker:style and be a huge, you really want to be
Speaker:like your dog. And he got a huge Spotify deal,
Speaker:but he's also going to a lot of people that
Speaker:are coming out against them because of his style and
Speaker:his politics and his views on a bunch of stuff.
Speaker:So, yeah, I think on, in your voice and your,
Speaker:like, I dunno if that is given the right description,
Speaker:but like the fact that you mentioned that you do
Speaker:have taken a turn narrative way, because I think, I
Speaker:think correct me if I'm wrong, but I, as at
Speaker:a PR pro you, our goal is to tell your
Speaker:client story in a way that really resonates with the
Speaker:audience, like how you love that approach.
Speaker:Yeah. And it worked well. I mean, whether it's, I
Speaker:mean, for example, I did an, an interview last year
Speaker:with, with Wendy James who you, you will remember because
Speaker:you were old enough, one of my first crushes. So
Speaker:as you go, exactly. And I came about purely because
Speaker:I was thinking, you know, where it talks about how
Speaker:I came up with episode ideas for topics. And I
Speaker:was thinking about this idea of, of people are publishing
Speaker:things during lockdown and had, had I had, they actually
Speaker:produce a piece of work or just published it, or,
Speaker:and I happened to, to spot that she, she, she
Speaker:released a new album. So I tweeted her and she
Speaker:tweeted me back and we get into a conversation and
Speaker:I got into, you know, eventually I got this interview
Speaker:and what I did that it would be so tempting
Speaker:with someone who is actually properly famous just to leave
Speaker:it as it is and not cut it up and
Speaker:not mess around with it.
Speaker:But I did the same thing. I added that narrative
Speaker:element, and I think it made the show better for
Speaker:doing that. And so, like you said, I would just
Speaker:encourage people to think differently and, and not just think
Speaker:a podcast has to be an interview or it can
Speaker:be all sorts of things.
Speaker:No. And, and that episode, I loved to listen to
Speaker:it when you share it. Because as I mentioned, when
Speaker:the James is one of my buddies as a teenager,
Speaker:beautiful, beautiful Parson, but very outspoken. Right. We saw, yes.
Speaker:The topic that we spoke about her sass, just her,
Speaker:her genuine. Yeah. The character came across as an app.
Speaker:So, so that was a, I grew up. So it
Speaker:may be,
Speaker:And that was, that was an interesting one to record
Speaker:because I was, I had questions around how she was
Speaker:when she was a lot younger, obviously. And about her,
Speaker:like you say, her sass, her, her energy, her, or
Speaker:the way she, she rebelled almost against everything, but I
Speaker:didn't want to make assumptions about her, how she is
Speaker:now, or, but, you know, once we started recording, I
Speaker:didn't have to, because you have heard it. She, she
Speaker:just, she was still outspoken, which was, which was great.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:No, as I mentioned at the start of the show,
Speaker:your love for Paisley pattern. Right. But I will haunt
Speaker:you until the day I die. That's not right. I
Speaker:can tell that I will put, rang you in a
Speaker:day, but, but you were working on for your piece,
Speaker:the shirts. So is there something that people that know
Speaker:you might be surprised about to learn about you?
Speaker:If I were going to correct you on the Paisley
Speaker:shirts, because there are floral shirts, but okay. A, something
Speaker:that people may not be surprised about, why? Okay, so
Speaker:this is, this is quite serious, actually going back to
Speaker:the mental health thing, this is something I have not
Speaker:told. I'm trying to think, who knows this? Not many
Speaker:people know this. My wife knows it. A few people
Speaker:know it, but here's me being very open and honest
Speaker:here. I, I was first diagnosed with depression about, I
Speaker:don't know, about 15 years ago, maybe, maybe.
Speaker:Yeah. About 15 years ago. The reason I actually went
Speaker:along to adopter in the first place was that I
Speaker:found myself thinking about how I might kill myself, which
Speaker:I told you this was dark. I'm not in the
Speaker:sense that I was going to do it, but I
Speaker:was in London one day. And I, it must have
Speaker:been around for a meeting a because I would have
Speaker:been at an agency at that time. And I was
Speaker:in London, standing on, on a tube platform and an,
Speaker:a train was going past and I had done it
Speaker:just popped in my head. And I thought quite casually,
Speaker:Gen, wait, if I was to kill myself, I jumped
Speaker:in front of a train because you're not getting out
Speaker:of that.
Speaker:This is not like drowning where someone might save you
Speaker:or wherever you are going to die. And it was
Speaker:that, that made me, it shocked me actually. And I
Speaker:went to the doctor and I know a couple of
Speaker:days later and got diagnosed. So yeah, that's, that's something
Speaker:that people don't know about me and it is quite
Speaker:dark.
Speaker:And, and, and thankfully, if you are still here, obviously.
Speaker:Yes, absolutely. And, but that, that's so important that you
Speaker:went to the doctor because I feel like a lot
Speaker:of people don't get the help by either through shame
Speaker:or thinking that they are broken because of these thoughts
Speaker:or, you know, a kudos we'd go on to the,
Speaker:the doctrine in the first place. So obviously you have
Speaker:a foundation there was this before in your family where
Speaker:you married at the time or
Speaker:No, it was, I was, what was it? Well, I
Speaker:know that I have suffered from depression since I was
Speaker:in my mid sort of late teens. Looking back with
Speaker:hindsight at that time, about 15 years ago, I had,
Speaker:I was going through, if not, I had just been
Speaker:through a divorce. And I think that was kind of,
Speaker:even though it was a, it was, it was my
Speaker:decision to get divorced. And I, I separated from my
Speaker:then wife and, ah, you know, I think any time
Speaker:you do anything like that, it, it, it doesn't mean
Speaker:it, it doesn't effect you. So I think there were
Speaker:certain things going on at that time.
Speaker:That just, it just triggered something it's difficult to say
Speaker:exactly, but triggered something. I don't know. I just having
Speaker:a different type of a difficult time at work as
Speaker:well, because the agency I was working with just weren't
Speaker:that supportive of what I was going through. And I
Speaker:think it was just one thing on top of another
Speaker:and something happened, something just ticked over it. And I
Speaker:went and got ahead.
Speaker:And then, and like I said, and he obviously, I'm
Speaker:glad he did, but it it's, it's good to see
Speaker:the, the growth visually, because you know, when you were
Speaker:out on Facebook, how are you still have some pictures
Speaker:of your, you know, you have your, your wife as
Speaker:Michelle, right? It is. Yes. Yeah, it is. So Michelle,
Speaker:when a kid said it was always like just a
Speaker:really solid top of family. So it's good to see
Speaker:that study. And I'm promising in the wrong things here.
Speaker:And I apologize that it's good to see growth from
Speaker:this, that dark time, a lot of potential, dark times,
Speaker:too, where, where you are today,
Speaker:They don't think it's the wrong thing to say. I
Speaker:think, I think you're right. I mean, you know, we
Speaker:we've been married now for, I've just got to say,
Speaker:I've got a tattoo on my arm with the day
Speaker:on. And every time we have to think of, when
Speaker:I got married, I have to look that we've been
Speaker:married since 2009. We've got three kids. Like we, we
Speaker:were talking before we started recording, I'll just move on
Speaker:to this beautiful old house. And I think, I think
Speaker:everyone has to take some times, sometimes you just think,
Speaker:Oh, you know what? There were certain times in my
Speaker:life where it sucked. It really sucks, but look where
Speaker:I am now. So I think, I think you're right.
Speaker:And I'm sure you, you've got things in your life
Speaker:as well, where you look back and go, what do
Speaker:you know what?
Speaker:That was a bad time, but I have grown as
Speaker:a person and in my life and everything else that's
Speaker:come on. I mean, you, you, you know why you've
Speaker:got kids and, and a wife and things, and you
Speaker:must think the same thing at times. And I think
Speaker:that's a valuable thing to do that. Right?
Speaker:I hear you in that because I'm, I'm just glad
Speaker:that we no longer have to be in competition with
Speaker:Jenny for the
time. It was just scary. I hear you, man. I
Speaker:can probably hear you. So this is a poll. This
Speaker:had been an absolute blast. I really enjoy chatting with
Speaker:you today. And I could quite easily, if this was
Speaker:a Joe Rogan show, I'd be quite easy to speak
Speaker:for another two hour and a beer and a joy
Speaker:that with you or for, for people that want to
Speaker:connect with you, listen to your podcast, check it what
Speaker:you do. Yeah. Or even to put you on Twitter
Speaker:about it, you know, Paisley, oops. A lot of shirts.
Speaker:Where's the best list to find you to connect with
Speaker:you online.
Speaker:Yeah. Well, other than the Podcast, which obviously you have
Speaker:to go and listen to a Twitter is probably the,
Speaker:the, the, the best place to find me when my
Speaker:Twitter handle is at the pool Sutton.
Speaker:Awesome. And I'll be sure to leave the link to
Speaker:the Podcast and Twitter and a good fashion designer in
Speaker:insurance. So if, if you're, if you listen to this
Speaker:on your favorite app is Normal would just check the
Speaker:shortest as usual with the link will be there for
Speaker:Paul. So again, Paul, I appreciate you coming on today.
Speaker:Thank you so much. Thank you. This has been Podcaster
Speaker:or Stories. If you enjoy this week's episode, hop on
Speaker:over to Podcaster Stories dot com and you can sign
Speaker:up for the three, a newsletter and catch up and
Speaker:all the episodes, all of a sudden on your favorite
Speaker:podcasts apps, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and More until
Speaker:the next time take care and stay safe.
