In this episode, Henry speaks with Dr Julie Sanda, a political scientist and the director general of the Plateau Peace Building Agency in Jos. In a very open and frank conversation, they explore the ethics of international partnerships, the impact of the difficulties of life on Nigerian academics, the importance of storytelling in science, being a “pocket psychologist”, and what the Nigerian academy looks like when it is intellectually vibrant and exciting.

David Ehrhardt

Welcome to Africa Knows.

In this episode, Henry speaks with Dr. Julie Sanda, a political scientist and the director general of the Plateau Peace Building Agency in Jos in Nigeria.

In a very frank and open conversation, they explore the ethics of international partnerships, the impact of the difficulties of life on Nigerian academics, the importance of storytelling in science, being a pocket psychologist, and what the Nigerian Academy can look like when it is intellectually vibrant and exciting. Here is Dr. Sanda.

Julie Sanda

Several years ago, things came to a head sort of for me because, you know, you sit down in your office and you have, you know, Western colleagues who come, they spend two weeks, do research, go back, and they become experts. Okay? But one day I challenged this young woman who had become friends because she had repeated visits.

And each time she tell me, she said, you have so much knowledge and experience, you know, and. And you're just sitting here with it in your office. I'm like, yes.

You know, the system in which I work does not allow me, you know, the kind of latitude that your system allows, you know, for you to be able to pursue these things and engage. I have to deal with so many things at the same time. Okay?

So I'm sitting here, I'm doing this work. I have this experience. I cannot take time off to say, I'm just going to write. I'm doing it at the same time as I'm doing other things.

Okay, Your printer gets faulty in the office, you're the one who has to fix it. You know, there's.

Henry Mang

You don’t buy the printer yourself?

Julie Sanda

I don't even want to say it, but I bought the printer. And that's why you don't want (...) to fix it. You come, maybe the cleaner didn't come to work early.

I have to make sure my office is clean before I sit down. Before I sit down. Something is wrong with my laptop. Even when I. Okay, let's. And then there are administrative issues to deal with.

Let's say, okay, I'm done with the office and I go back home. Guess what? I have to produce my own light. I generate my own light. So on my way home, I have to worry about buying fuel for the generator. Okay?

And I'm talking of my particular case. I'm being very personal now. I don't have a man at home, so I'm the one who has to think about that. And I'm still thinking about the children.

I'm still thinking about the meals. I'm still thinking about this paper I have to write. And I'm still doing the work in the office. So these are issues. They are real issues.

I'm not making them up as excuses. They're real issues. We still are able to write answers.

Henry Mang

There's a gender bias here.

Julie Sanda

Absolutely. That's why I'm being very personal, so that you understand what I'm dealing with. Okay? So.

And again, talking about the gender bias, and I did mention to you, I said, there's no man at home. Yes. Sometimes I'm told, why are you rushing off? You're not going off to cook. To cook for somebody. Okay, so the one who has a husband has to cook.

But for me? Yes, for me, exactly.

Henry Mang

Yes. Because they're looking at your state and they are judging you by your state.

Julie Sanda

Thank you, sir. So these are all the things I have to juggle with now. My male colleagues also have many of those issues as well. Okay?

So in all of this, I'm still expected in this field because I'm an academic, to generate knowledge, okay? Knowledge which my peers can see and use and appreciate and, you know, but you can afford to, you know, to have blocks in your life.

I do this at this time. I do this. I do this. I can't afford it because I have to live life in the midst of all this. Okay, you go home, maybe there's no water.

These are real existential issues we deal with. So we're having this discussion. And she said, you know, we need.

We need space for you to come and talk about this because we're talking about knowledge generation. And she was like, it's a shame you have all of this. We're the ones who tell your story. I said, yes, this is what I grapple with all the time.

So cut a long story short, there was a conference coming up somewhere. You know, I'm not going to give details. And she said, we'll see if we can, you know, get space for you to come for this conference.

And of course, I was going to compete with it like everybody else. It was not, you know, some altruistic offer.

Julie Sanda

And I said to her, we discussed a bit, and I said I was going to write about knowledge production, right? And I was going to do it from a point of view where we are the ones with the knowledge and the expertise.

So it's a kind of, you know, division of labor where we produce the raw material, because I was giving them the raw material, but they would now go and refine it, produce the, the knowledge in a way that is useful to the world. So I told, I said, that's what I was going to talk about, she was excited about it for her as a person.

And so she went back and we started the process and everything, you know, you have to write the abstract, the title. I started from the normal abstract.

We reduced it to two paragraphs, we reduced it to 200 words, we reduced it to 100 words, we reduced it to a sentence. I went through all of that and eventually I was accepted. Okay. They accepted. Okay. Okay.

Henry Mang

In the process of, of reducing your abstract. Did you feel demeaned?

Julie Sanda

At a point? No, I didn't, I didn't. I tried not to go into all. I was excited at an opportunity to do this. Okay.

And she told me that that's what everybody went through. So I said, fine. I said, fine. I did it. And at every stage I passed, you know, they'll scrutinize it and whatever, and I passed it.

It was a long, long, it took a long period. Eventually we did it and it was accepted. She was excited.

And the panel to which, you know, I had been allocated, they said they were excited about it. That was how we even went through all the stages. Then the final selection committee came after I'd gone through all this, and guess what?

She sent me an email to say she was very, very sorry that they couldn't accept my participation, that they had to, you know, give the space to someone else.

Henry Mang

They were, they were competing people, I guess.

Julie Sanda

Yes. So all because my perspective was not palatable, basically. It wasn't palatable, Yeah.

Henry Mang

I, I, I had an interview a few weeks ago with Professor Dagona, psychologist and professor told me about his experiences, about him trying to localize his research, and that he has always had issues, not just with his international partners, but even locally. On the view, being a psychologist, most of his work is quantitative and. Or most of the work previously.

Julie Sanda

Previously, yes.

Henry Mang

But when he went to Bradford, he found out that he could introduce more politics part of his work, and that breathed a lot of tissues.

Henry Mang

The only person that supported him was the person that eventually became his supervisor. And subsequently, even when he came back to Nigeria, he had that problem.

And I think that has been for me, and let me ask you now, hasn't that been a problem about us trying to place our methodologies and our methodologies or our points of view, our theories, our perspectives are seen as less significant?

Julie Sanda

My brother. I don't do quantitative.

Henry Mang

Okay.

Julie Sanda

I don't do, I don't do quantitative. Yeah. So for us in the social sciences, it's been this tension.

It's been this tension and it's gotten to a stage where they make you look as if qualitative is. Is less. Less. It's inferior, actually. Yes. That you're telling stories. Yes, but we're dealing with human beings.

It is in that story that meaning comes out. It's in that story that meaning comes out. I know Professor Dogona very well, so I know what you're talking about.

As a matter of fact, in this office, we've had conversations. You know, I mean, on this job, you know, we have to deal with a lot of trauma healing and so on. And, you know, it's work also.

And he told me a disagreement he had, you know, with some partners and so on, because they were focused on the Western way of doing individualistic counseling. You come to the counseling room, you sit down on the couch, and he says, we're communal people. We're communal people.

Our approaches must be communal interview.

Henry Mang

He insisted on the fact that this singularity of things doesn't work with Africa.

Julie Sanda

So you know that I know Dagona very well. So we've had those conversations. We've had those conversations. It must be communal.

As a matter of fact, we had an engagement in a community, I think, a week or two ago.

And in the preparation for that engagement, because, you know, I have psychologists and psychiatrists on my team, but Professor Dogona was in town, and I said to them, go and talk to this man. He's an expert. He's more experienced than you. He's done extensive work on the plateau and in Borno State. So go and talk to him.

Tell him this is what we want to do and let him kind of give you some pointers. And they did that. And we had this very meaningful engagement. Somebody was saying to me, oh, why don't we get this other person? And that.

I said, no, I know their methodologies. It will not work. How many individuals are we going to work with to deal with the extent of trauma we're dealing with in plateau?

It's not going to work. So it's time we stood for. We know the people. We are also social scientists. We are well trained.

Some of them, like Dagona, they're gonna have gone to the best schools in the world, even if you want to do that ranking. So your knowledge must… I mean, your experiences there must be relevant to your community.

So we have to be able to take the best okay of what is out there and come and use it. There's something called adaptation, isn't it? Yeah.

Henry Mang

The problem with adapting, and it still brings us back to what you said about your personal experience, who funds these?

Julie Sanda

That is the other issue.

Henry Mang

Yes.

Julie Sanda

And I'll tell you this.

The reason why I could do what I did in that intervention where I told them to go get experience from professor Dagona, because the state government was funding me. I didn't have to talk to any partner. I didn't have to talk to any partner.

Henry Mang

So that means that there is a big problem.

Julie Sanda

There's a problem. There is. Which is, which is part of what I wanted to talk about in that paper. I told you about that, I was, I was turned down at the last minute. One of the issues was funding because they fund us. They want to be able to dictate.

Now some of them are refined in the way they dictate, quote, unquote. Now okay, some of them are refined. Yes, some of them.

And to be, to be, to be honest and to be fair, some really allow you to discuss what your priorities are. Yes, some do. Some do, right, but it takes a lot of work. But some, honestly, some allow you to determine your priorities.

But there's still still a lot of the low hanging ones, you know, that of course have what their priorities are or what their own ideologies behind it are and they will expect you then, you know, to go with that.

Again, another personal story. Several years ago, I was to do a work and they came under the name of, you know, I don't want to give too many details but so, so they came through a civil society organization, right? A Nigerian. Yes, civil society organization. And so we did everything, we signed the contracts and everything and I started the work.

Because of where I work, I also am sensitive to certain things. So you came to me as an academic, but you knew the institution in which I work.

Now every institution and profession has its own ethics and code of ethics and so on. So anyway, as the work was going on and I started my preliminary reports and so on, they didn't get what they wanted.

They didn't get what they wanted. So they began to make an issue out of it. They were bombarding me. I wasn't meeting timelines, I wasn't doing this, I wasn't doing, doing that.

They got the local organization to talk to me and all that. I was not getting the right information. What is this? So I said no. We had this back and forth and eventually I said to them, I said, what do you want?

No, but where, with where you're sitting, you should be able to do this and do that. I said no, I'm an academic and there's a way we do research. We all know. I write to the institution.

I said, I'm doing this work as an academic, not as a staff of this place. So I'm not going to use privileges. Yes. So I will, I will write to the institution like any researcher would do.

If they respond, I use that in my work. If I don't get that response, I'm not going to sit down because I know you and I talk to you, you discuss, and then I come and use it in this work.

I said, is that how you do ethical research?

Henry Mang

It's more condescending because it's, it's not what they would do.

Julie Sanda

No, they wouldn't do that in their system. They can't. They can't. So. So eventually they now said to cut a long story short, that we couldn't continue that work anymore. And whatever, whatever.

I said, that's fine, that's fine. So I signed off and you know, and whatever.

And according to the contract, of course, for what I had done, they were going to give me something if it fails and so on. And I didn't even bother. I don't even remember if they gave me or not. I didn't bother. But I said this was highly unprincipled, highly unprincipled.

So eventually they went and got somebody else to do that work and they progressed.

When I eventually saw the report, the same issues of confidentiality and secrecy and not getting information I had encountered, he encountered the same thing and it was actually reflected in the title. I said, this is what I told you people. But you were trying.. If apparently they got me for the job because they thought I would use my insider knowledge to do it.

Henry Mang

But then that becomes a problem generally for us as academics in Africa and in Nigeria, particularly because. Because in many cases, most of us, because of lack of funding and lack of access also we would want to take up these opportunities.

And in many cases we might falsify data. We might also in certain cases be very unethical. Some of these things which they would not even accept, but they want that.

But there's the second thing. I don't know whether you have encountered the issue of trying to corner you to write according to what they want their own perspectives about.

So you are within, you are a Nigerian, you're in Nigeria, you know the context within which you can write about, but then they already maybe foreseeing what they want you to write. I don't know whether you've come, you've had that experience.

Julie Sanda

Well, in my case, I mean, I have learned to fight my way through the system. And so I normally go through a long period of negotiation because if I find that I'm not going to have that freedom, I normally wouldn't do it.

So that's it. But I know that the issues of funding are real. They are real for us and for academics. You want to do this work. You want to do this work.

And to be honest with you, some of these opportunities we have had has built our capacities because it exposes you to other way of doing things, you know, new methodologies, maybe new developments in your field. And, you know, it, it helps you truly, okay, just to be disciplined also in terms of, you know, the way you do your work and all of that.

So it has been very advantageous. But, you know, when, then there are these other issues, then we have to fight. We have to fight, you know, for the sanctity of what we're doing.

Henry Mang

Going back to, you had pointed out the fact that you are more into qualitative research. What has prompted me, you're within the social sciences.

And in most cases, just as we had pointed out, there have been that clash between, with those who think that the quantitative way is the most advantageous. And then there are some of us, people like me, that don't like numbers at all.

How do you cope within a system that usually looks at numbers as the most important thing?

Julie Sanda

Well, I have coped because in my world, I mean, there are quite a number like me. And I grew up in a generation where, you know, we, we did that. That's the way we were trained.

Okay, My, my teachers, that was the way they trained me. As a matter of fact, I had a professor who used to tell me, you know, that people can use statistics to lie. So he was averse to it.

So I guess that was ingrained in me as well. He was averse to it. He said, you can use statistics to tell any story.

Now, for me, who is, I've already made my disclaimer right from the beginning, so maybe you can, you can, you can see my bias. I know that numbers, numbers do tell stories, right?

They can tell some stories, but I know that some people can be unscrupulous so to use it to tell other stories. So even if you have numbers, your narrative, you know, must, must match.

You know, you must have methodologies that, that will enable you to tell the truth with the numbers and to stick with the numbers. I've come to appreciate numbers over time. But, you know, for me, I wouldn't go out of my way to look for them, right?

And I never learned those methodologies, so I don't have to bother about it. And with my age, you know, I can escape.

So with my age now, you know, But I know that some younger colleagues in the environment where I worked had to learn, you know, how to do all of that. And I was like, I'm too old to learn new tricks. I'm happier where I am, you know, so.

But you know, like, like I said, some people, the problem for me with, with quantitative is some people use it as, as an end in itself. That for me is the challenge. It's not the methodology per se, but that's for some people, it becomes an end in itself.

And you're reading a text and you don't understand anything, okay? And it's just about the formula, the regression, the this, the that. Now if you talk to somebody else, of course they will not be as harsh as I am.

But you know, you know, in qualitative, for us as political scientists, I mean, our argument is that it's social science research. What makes the science in the social is that there's rigor. It's not as if we tell stories just for the sake of.

There's rigor, there's a rhythm, there's a logic in what we're doing. There is rigor in qualitative, and we teach it, we learn it as well. There are theories, we work with theories.

And your theory basically will set out, you know, the framework in which you're going to do so as long as we follow that, you know, we've been able to, to stand our grounds, you know, it is.

When you do a work for us as political scientists and social scientists, if there's no theory and if it is not coherent, you know, in the work, then that's the problem. Yes.

Henry Mang

You have mentioned your lecturer, Professor Elaibo.

Julie Sanda

Yes.

Henry Mang

And. Well, let me just look for trouble a bit. You're obviously within the group that were taught by Elaibo and people like Al'amin Mazrui.

What was the experience then in University of Jos? I was told that at certain point, seminars and all of these were really exciting experiences for people. I went through the University of Jos,

As an undergraduate. I never attended a single seminar. So I want to know what has happened.

Julie Sanda

What has happened?

Henry Mang

What was your experience?

And then maybe, for instance, I can infer what has happened because from what I was told about the experiences when Al'amin Mazrui came into Jos at certain times, or maybe Patrick Wilmot came Into Jos. There were a lot of discussions, a lot of excitement. These are things I just heard because I'd never experienced them.

Julie Sanda

So my experience, in fact, it is that background that makes me passionate about academics. And passionate about political science. It's my foundation. Al'amin Mazrui. You said it. Wilmot Izaria

And later when I went for my Masters, I sat with Wilmot. And in fact, I remember a famous debate, you know, where Wilmot was supposed to come and debate with Mazrui or something.

But anyway, and you remember things like the triple heritage. Mazrui came and did a big conference in Joss. And I keep telling my colleagues and students this.

So whenever we were doing a seminar or Mazrui was coming, we were the planning committee. Our class with Elaigun, we sat with him.

And when Mazrui would come, he would host Mazrui in his house with us, the class, you know, his family would cook. We would sit in the same sitting room with Mazrui, and we could ask him questions and we could just listen to their stories.

You know, it was so exciting. And, you know, and when Elagu's lectures on Nigerian military, Nigerian military history, it was like a seminar.

Everybody from the university came, medical students, for those of us who are political scientists, if you didn't come to class on time, you wouldn't get a seat because science students, yes, they would come with their recorders. That was the history class that we had.

They would come with their recorders, medical students, and we would be the ones standing up because they would come get the choice seats. Because Mazrui class was alive. The lecture hall could not take everybody. That was the foundation we had. Okay. And he would tell it like a story.

But I mean, how do you tell that kind of story with regression? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to beat down on them. But anyway, so you would tell those stories.

Henry Mang

It builds up with somebody, with somebody like that. It speaks for itself.

Julie Sanda

Don't let, Don't. Don't let my brother hear me on this. So, so, I mean, so those were the classes then. You know, so. And then we had people like Professor Gana.

Henry Mang

Yes.

Julie Sanda

You know, so class was interesting. The lectures were interesting. Things they taught us then you couldn't, you couldn't. You can't forget.

And I think part of it also, you know, I love to call myself a pocket psychologist. I loved psychology. Part of it also, I think for me, the attraction for me is the way the brain works, because they say the brain thinks in pictures.

Elagu describe these pictures to you in the way he tells the things. That's why storytelling is so powerful. Sure. So how do you forget? How do you forget?

Henry Mang

That's why I chose to do history.

Julie Sanda

Thank you. So how do you forget? So anyway, and I'll tell you my love with. With storytelling. We're telling a lot of stories here.

Henry Mang

Go ahead.

Julie Sanda

I was a science student in secondary school, but I would be the one who would read the history books, the stories of Mansa Musa, the Mali Empire, the Songhai Empire. I didn't read history, but I know them because I used to read the textbooks and the notes and tell my classmates the story.

That's how they used to study. I would tell them the stories.

Henry Mang

I think that's where the passion comes from.

Julie Sanda

Yes, for me, that's it. Yes.

Henry Mang

As it rests now, you don't look at it as a cumbersome activity, look at it as part of your livelihood, part of what you do on a daily basis.

Julie Sanda

Absolutely.

Henry Mang

And I don't know.

But for instance, for me, most especially going to (...), one of the biggest problems I had was that most of the students that came to development of history were forced to. And so the teaching has been very tedious.

Julie Sanda

Yeah, it's difficult. You get a lot of pushback.

Henry Mang

You get a lot of pushback. A lot of times students, the students can't even… They are not interested at all. Yeah, most of them came in with the mindset, they want to study criminology, they want to study psychology, international relations, because this. And then you come in with your stories and then they become…

It's over time, maybe in their third year, then they begin to pick interest, but then their CGPAs have dropped and then it becomes problematic. And just as I had pointed out, I wanted to know your experience as an undergraduate and all of through these years, and it's exciting to find, Okay, a professor will tell you guys. Ah, come, let's sit down.

Julie Sanda

Absolutely, absolutely.

Henry Mang

For me, even in the 1990s when I started university, it was really problematic. And things have changed so rapidly that it even gets worse now because there is so much of a disconnect with this, with the students.

I don't know, maybe as a last question, I know you're quite tired. What do you think can change within the system, being both an academic and an administrator at a certain point?

Julie Sanda

No, but you know, within the university system or with academics generally.

You know, in fairness, I think if you look back to that era, the things that academics have to deal with now, they didn't to a large extent, have to deal with them before, I told you about power supply, for example, they weren't struggling with that.

They could buy their cars, their children could go to school without. You know, these days we have to look for this consultancy and that consultancy and this consultancy to make ends meat. to make ends meet.

So in fairness, there is some of that. And because people began to now chase after that, they saw alternatives with that and so on, then we began to look out more and more and more.

In fairness, honestly, this is part of it. This is part of it. Because you can see when the thing began to drop. So we cannot remove academics from the wider systemic issues. And this is why.

Yeah. So on the university, on the university campus now, you have to. You also deal with the same things.

As a matter of fact, I have, I have, I have a friend. This same Leiden, I think you talked about also, is it Leiden or somewhere? He used to go give summer lectures and he told me that.

He said he's from U. I.

He said this is one of the things he used to teach about, to tell them why knowledge production is difficult for us, but we still find a way to do it. So honestly, we do have some who have maintained their respect and have gotten respect for us. Okay.

But it is also because of some of these opportunities. So if you are able to negotiate, like one of my professors, again in NDA used to say, Professor Tar, you have to negotiate access.

Some of them have been able to negotiate on the side of good. Some have negotiated to where they have just, you know, fallen prey to, you know, to everything else that is going around.

So we must, we must balance the picture.

So there's both of them going on so many things that, like I've said, you learn capacities, you learn methodologies, you meet, get to know your peers, you know, they, they get to know you. And then when opportunities come up, they can also extend some of these to them.

And we have excellent academics who have gone and served institutions abroad and, and also bettered their systems and come back. One of them is Adetula. Yes, they have bettered their systems there and come back.

We have some of them who are heading big organizations that are doing good. Kima with Makata Foundation. Okay. We have Professor Ibanu. We have people like that. Okay.

So it's not to say that all of it is bad, but we need to be having these conversations.

My professional association, the mpsa, is doing a lot in terms of reviving the ethics, you know, of the profession and getting professionals back to being proud of being political scientists.

As a matter of fact, these things we're discussing, we've been discussing it now we have an elders forum because the elders have been standing by us to make sure the association at least we bring back, you know, they've reintroduced teaching of theory of methodology and so on for political scientists within the boundaries, you know, of the association, just to make sure that they don't go. Because, yeah, they've all been frustrated also, but they want to give back through a more disciplined channel and so on.

So a lot of that is happening, you know, to make sure that we don't lose everything. It's not that when a generation dies off, then everything is gone with them. So we have some of the greats. They're still associated.

Professor Gambari is there. Professor Genaudi is there, you know, Oyobari.

They still associate, you know, with us in terms of making things work, you know, for, for political scientists and so on. So I don't know. I was rambling. I don't even remember the question.

Henry Mang

When you said about the elders forum, I began to laugh in my mind because as a historian we had this elders forum. But it's become very political now. So that is where you, you see, we, we, we.

We have what we call the old rabbits who determine who goes where or who.

Julie Sanda

Oh, no, we don't do that.

Henry Mang

And that's when, when I, when I heard that, I, I began to, to wonder.

Julie Sanda

It's a loose thing.

Henry Mang

But in, in most cases, and I think this is where I, I have fear with different bureaucracies within Nigeria. Bureaucracy starts with a loose structure trying to put in instruments that work.

And then somebody captures particular size of the instruments and makes it kind of his as a whole. And even in small informal spaces.

Julie Sanda

Well, in ours, we've not even made them part of the main structure. So they don't know what's going on in the main structure. They just give advice. They are not part of the main structure.

So they don't know the decisions we're making there. If we take anything there for the advice, that's the one that they see.

Henry Mang

That's a good one.

Julie Sanda

That's what history should, should learn from. And you know, we used to look up to the History Society for a very long time. History Association. Yes.

Henry Mang

In fact…

Julie Sanda

And when, when they stopped the teaching of history, we joined the campaign for the advocacy for bringing history back. How do you have a people grow without history? How? How?

Henry Mang

You know, for the first time in my experience as a student of history, this is the first time I'm enjoying my work. Not necessarily, but for the first time, you're teaching undergraduates, Nigerian military history.

As an undergraduate history student, it was a three credit unit course on the Nigerian Civil War.

Julie Sanda

That was it.

Henry Mang

That was all.

Julie Sanda

What?!

Henry Mang

I still feel bad that students either of history or political science do not have not just even adequate, but even the basic knowledge of the experience of civil war. And I think it still reflects on what we have now, issues of IPOB

Julie Sanda

and all of this. You know, if I had my way, everybody, and I mean everybody would read history. Everybody.

Henry Mang

I loved history because of…

Julie Sanda

Yeah, everybody.

So, you know, the challenge we face, like I said, the difficulties that academics face, you know, today, it doesn't excuse everything, but I'm saying that those challenges are real. But within that space, some people have been able to negotiate and get something that works for them.

So it's not that partnerships or collaborations are bad or they are wrong. There's a lot of good from them.

But we should stand our ground and negotiate something that is beneficial for us and for our system, because that knowledge must help our system.

Henry Mang

So maybe it's time for us to actually find our feet and work on what we know and what we can build on, before we negotiate. Because in many cases, most of what we do is borrowed. I think I was discussing with Professor Dagona too.

Sorry, I keep on bringing him back, but he talked about the fact that in many cases the context is always… We forget at a certain point to even include our own context in research, because we've already been given an outline of what to provide on how to produce it.

Julie Sanda

You know, one of the favorite. One of the other favorite courses I enjoyed when I was in school was African Political Thought.

Henry Mang

Yes, I enjoyed it too.

Julie Sanda

So we got to know what they were thinking about in East Africa, what they were thinking about in North Africa and so on. So later when I started traveling to some of those countries, I could identify with them because I knew about Ujamaa African socialism.

You know, I knew Bouteflika and all these people and so on, all this Nasser and so on. So when you go to the country, it's exciting. Okay, so what are we teaching? So much as I say, yes, there's… We have reasons why we've had challenges. But then, you know, there's a general pervasive sort of intellectual laziness that has come into the system as well.

Henry Mang

That is an important topic.

Julie Sanda

Yes. So we don't really prepare for these lectures. We just want to regurgitate. You remember the era of handouts, restfully, I think it has stopped now.

Yes, it has stopped now. So people don't prepare for their lecture per se, but like where we are in the space where we are. Because I do pro bono teaching in the university and with some of my colleagues and friends that do that, we are determined to bring back some of the excitement that we had in school.

And I know in one of the spaces where I do this, not too long ago we actually had a seminar and we used one of our African classics, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, and we made the students review it and then we had a seminar with external speakers to talk about it and talk about is it relevant in our society today? You know, so we're trying to revive some of.

So we need to make conscious effort also as academics to rebuild some of those, you know, some of those, those, those kind of experiences to help the students these days. We have technology to help us. So we do PowerPoints. In some of the classes.

You try to bring, you know, interesting stories and graphics to help them in the class. So I try to do that. Yeah, I was trying to make another point about. Yeah, about pictures. Yes. How we learn.

So I try to do that in my classes, you know, just to make it alive. Have them also prepare seminars. You know, these days they don't even have the patience to sit down and write the way we did. Oh, it's amazing.

But one liners, I tell you, in an exam, you get one liners in exams. And I'm like, in political science or social science?!

Oh! So we have a big problem, but we really need to reinvent, you know, our, our academics and make it.

Of course, it's not that you won't find, you know, exceptions, but there's a general, a general problem and we need to, you need to, to be more creative, you know, and innovative in how, how we deal with, with that situation, you know, so, but, but that's it.

And so even in my, in my old age, I'm looking forward to sitting with my students again, you know, and, you know, recreate some of those kind of memories.

David Ehrhardt

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