EPISODE OVERVIEW

Duration: Approximately 55 minutes

Best For: Trapped entrepreneurs who carry every decision themselves and wonder why their team never quite steps up

Key Outcome: You will see why your people give you a fraction of what they could, and what changes when you lead instead of manage

He started at the very bottom of the most powerful navy in the world. He finished as a commander. The lesson he brought back is the one most business owners never learn.

THE BOTTOM LINE

You built this thing. You give it everything. That is exactly why you are exhausted. Bob Fabien Zinga came to America at 17 with one suitcase, a guitar, and enough money for a single year of school. He went from seaman recruit to commander in the US Navy, built businesses alongside a full career, and now spends his time helping other people rise. The thing he keeps coming back to is this. Most people give their work about 25 percent of what they are capable of. Management, done well, can get them to 100. Leadership takes them past it. If you are the only one in your business operating at full effort, you do not have a team problem. You have a leadership gap, and it is the reason every decision still runs through you.

WHY THIS EPISODE MATTERS TO YOU

You already know you are the bottleneck. This episode explains the mechanism behind it. When your people run at a quarter of their capacity, you fill the other three quarters yourself. That is your 55 to 80 hour week.

Bob draws a hard line between management and leadership. Management is a science you can learn from a book. Leadership is what gets people to care about something bigger than the task in front of them. Get that right and work stops flowing back to your desk.

He watched people in the Navy give everything for the sailor beside them, not because someone managed them well, because they shared a mission. The same force is available to you. Most owners have never once made their vision clear enough for anyone else to carry it.

The cost of staying as you are is not just tired days. It is a business that cannot survive a week without you, and a life measured only by the hours you put in.

KEY INSIGHTS YOU CAN IMPLEMENT TODAY

Your team is not lazy. They are unled. The 25 percent figure Bob quotes is what people give by default. The rest is unlocked by a shared mission, not by you working harder to cover the gap.

You cannot delegate what you have never articulated. In the Navy they call it command by negation. Sailors act on the commander's intent because there is nobody there to ask. If your intent lives only in your head, everything has to come back through you.

Caring about your people has to be real, never a checkbox. Bob says people smell it a mile off, the same way children do. The fastest route out of the bottleneck is a team that trusts you enough to own their part.

AI can carry the repetitive load. It cannot decide, cannot feel, cannot bear responsibility. Get clear on which tasks in your day are genuinely human and which are just noise you have been absorbing.

Success does not satisfy. Bob reached the top and found it empty. The shift from success to significance is what makes stepping back feel like a gain rather than a loss. You are not abandoning the business. You are making room for a life.

GOLDEN QUOTES WORTH REMEMBERING

"Once you attain a certain level of success, I think it is really your duty and your responsibility to start helping other people." Bob Fabien Zinga

"With leadership you can get to 110, 120 percent. And the way you can do that is because leadership is more than a science, it is an art." Bob Fabien Zinga

"Nobody is going to say on their deathbed, I want to go back to the office and make an extra dollar. It is going to be the people you love, the people you impacted." Bob Fabien Zinga

"We listen so often as humans. We listen to answer. We need to listen to understand." Roy Castleman

"It is really the impact you are having on the life of other people. All that money is going to stay right here." Bob Fabien Zinga

QUICK NAVIGATION FOR BUSY LEADERS

00:00 - Introduction: The books that reshaped a life, and why leadership principles work like gravity whether you believe in them or not

06:30 - From the Congo to Alabama with one suitcase: what you learn when survival is the test, not theory

14:00 - Technology, business, leadership: the three skills Bob bet his whole career on back in the 90s

22:00 - Learning business at his parents' side: how to listen to the customer and why the customer is king

28:00 - The Navy story: from the lowest rank to commander, and what command by negation teaches you about trusting your people

38:00 - Management versus leadership: why your team gives 25 percent, and what closes the gap

44:00 - AI and the human edge: what machines will never do, and how to build a more human company

52:00 - Success to significance: the shift that makes stepping back feel like a gain

GUEST SPOTLIGHT

Name: Bob Fabien Zinga

Bio: Bob Fabien Zinga rose from seaman recruit to commander in the US Navy while building a parallel career in technology and cybersecurity, ending up as a chief information security officer. Born in the Republic of the Congo, he arrived in America at 17 with almost nothing and now mentors and coaches leaders through his podcast and forthcoming leadership book. For business owners, he offers a rare view of leadership tested where the stakes are life and death. Full bio at https://bobfabienzinga.com/bio/

Connect with Bob:

Website: https://bobfabienzinga.com

LinkedIn: https://www.LinkedIn.com/in/bobfabienzinga

YOUR NEXT ACTIONS

This Week: Pick one recurring decision that always lands on your desk. Write down your intent behind it in plain words, then hand both the decision and the intent to someone on your team.

This Month: Sit down and make your vision clear enough that someone else could repeat it back to you. If they cannot carry it, they cannot take work off you.

This Quarter: Audit a full week of your tasks. Mark what is genuinely human, what could go to your team, and what could go to AI. Then start moving things off your plate, one column at a time.

EPISODE RESOURCES

The Leadership Bible

The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John C. Maxwell

Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill

The Richest Man in Babylon by George S. Clason

Unapologetically Ambitious by Shellye Archambeau

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey

Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

READY TO ESCAPE THE TRAP?

Take the Freedom Score Quiz: https://allthepower.co.uk/quiz

Discover how trapped you are in your business and get your personalised roadmap to freedom in under 5 minutes.

Book a Free Strategy Session: https://www.allthepower.co.uk/contact

Let's discuss how to build a business that works WITHOUT you.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST, ROY CASTLEMAN

Roy is the founder of All The Power Limited and creator of The Owner's Thrive Method, a business coaching system for entrepreneurs ready to grow without burnout. As a certified Wim Hof Method Instructor and the UK's first certified BOS UP coach, Roy combines AI as a thinking methodology, wellness practices, and business operating systems to help trapped entrepreneurs reclaim their freedom.

Website: www.allthepower.co.uk

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roycastleman/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@allthepowerltd

1

Roy: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are in

2

the world. And today we're welcoming Bob to our Power

3

Movers podcast. Welcome, Bob.

4

Bob: Glad to be here. Thank you.

5

Roy: Good, good, good morning. Loving all the books in the

6

background. I'm sure there's a, a whole bunch of stories

7

in there.

8

Bob: Yes, indeed. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Books have changed my life,

9

basically. Yes.

10

Roy: And what would be, what would be number one on

11

that list?

12

Bob: There are a few, actually. I was thinking about it

13

earlier this today. One, One book that definitely changed my

14

life is the Bible, especially this leadership Bible. I. I

15

love this one because it's not just a regular Bible,

16

but it has a lot of leadership article and principle

17

and really looks at the Bible from a different lens.

18

Right. How can I learn how to become a better

19

leader through the stories of the Bible? So that one

20

is one that definitely impacted me. I've probably read the

21

entire Bible, I don't know, three or four times now,

22

since I was about 12, and I read it almost

23

every day, at least portions of it. And it's on

24

my podcast since last season. Last year, this was one

25

of two books for my curriculum, so we use that

26

a lot because I feel like those leadership principles, they

27

are universal and I believe, eternal. It doesn't matter who

28

you are, where you come from and what you do.

29

You can be in technology like I am, or in

30

the US Navy, or an entrepreneur or whatever it is

31

that you do in life. If you apply those biblical

32

principles, I think they will work no matter who you

33

are and what you do, because I think leadership is

34

universal. But anyway, another book that really impacted my life,

35

so many of them, but one of them is the

36

20 irrefutable laws of Leadership. Again, these laws are irrefutable.

37

They work no matter who you are. No matter what

38

you do, they will. Almost like gravity, right? You may

39

not believe in it. It doesn't matter if you fall

40

down, you are going to die from a 10 story

41

building because gravity will be in effect. There is nothing

42

you can do about it. That's kind of like what

43

it is for leadership. This is again the second book

44

I have as a curriculum for my podcast. Last season

45

and this season as well. And then I'm sure you've

46

heard of a book, Think and Grow Rich. I have

47

a copy right there. Let me see if I can

48

get it.

49

Roy: I have it up here as well.

50

Bob: Yeah. Anyway, like I say, I love books, but Think

51

and Grow Rich is one. Yeah, no, really, really revolutionized

52

my, my life. I think I first read it when

53

I was maybe 17 or 18 years old. I think

54

they say it's still the number one best selling book,

55

right. For the self help industry anyway. And then there

56

is also this one I read every year. The Richest

57

man in Babylon by George Clayson. I think it really

58

teaches you to handle money. It doesn't matter if you

59

are poor enough, you don't have anything. If you follow

60

this principle again, I think they, they work. No, no

61

matter how much money you make, it's not to leave

62

the amount you make. It's the amount that you keep

63

after you make it and how you actually manage it.

64

So there are many, many books and the reason I

65

have one is not here, it is downstairs but by

66

my mentor, unapologetically ambitious Shelley Archambault. I first

67

met her what, five, six years ago. So I was

68

already relatively successful when I met. But she really reset

69

my ambition and she got me to commit to becoming

70

even more successful and helping even, even more people. Great,

71

great book. But anyway, there are quite a few magic.

72

Roy: Let's go, let's go back. Let's go back to Bob

73

when Bob was a, a young man. Where were you

74

in life and. Yeah, tell us a bit of that

75

story.

76

Bob: Yeah, I, I guess in a, in a way I

77

feel like as a young man my life really started

78

when I was about 17 years old. I left everything

79

I knew. I was born in Point Novo Republic of

80

the Congo in Central Africa. And most of the people

81

born there because we were a French colony, they usually

82

go to France when they speak the language. And that

83

was our, I guess colonizer France was but. And some

84

of them go to French speaking Canada, Montreal, they do

85

speak French French there. But anyway, for me, my parents,

86

especially my mom, she wanted me to go to the

87

best schools in the world and America was the place.

88

So anyway, 17 years old, I, I only had one

89

little suitcase. I think I brought my guitar with, with

90

me. I couldn't bring my, my keyboard. I had to

91

buy another one when I come to the U.S. but

92

anyway, I've been playing the keyboard since I was like

93

7 years old. But anyway, so I, I come to

94

this country, I didn't speak the language. No. I only

95

had enough money for my first year of school only.

96

And I really learned, how

97

can I put this? I guess in a way everything

98

I'd learned. Again, I was still relatively young. I didn't

99

really have a lot of life experience. But whatever experience

100

I had, I really learned how to put it to

101

the test. Right. It wasn't just about theories or things

102

I've learned or read in one of those books or

103

in the Bible or something, but it was really something

104

I had to put in practice just to be able

105

to survive. But anyway, so I, I came to the

106

US I ended up in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And that's really,

107

for the first, you know, 15 years of my adulthood,

108

really. That's, that's where I was, that's where I went

109

to school. I eventually went, I met the woman who

110

became my, my wife and we kind of started a

111

family there. And then later on we moved to Silicon

112

Valley, California where we, we live today. But amazing.

113

Roy: And on that journey you've, you've done many things. You're

114

in the security space, you've. So you understand technology.

115

Yeah. At a level that a lot of people probably

116

don't. So tell us a little bit about your corporate,

117

your corporate life.

118

Bob: Yeah, that was very interesting because when I came to

119

this country, to the U.S. originally, I wanted to become

120

a medical doctor. So I was a pre med student

121

at the University of Alabama, right. I did biology and

122

chemistry. And then when I was a junior, I, I

123

was part of, I think it was epsilon epsilon epsilon,

124

right, the pre med honor society. And one thing they

125

helped us do when you become a junior is they,

126

you shadow doctors in your, in your field. So I

127

shadowed doctors at the university medical center, at the big

128

dch hospital we, we had in town. And I figure

129

that a lot of MDs that I was shadowing, they

130

weren't very smart. Actually. They looked to me like glorified

131

f pharmacist, especially in the medical school because most of

132

them were resident. They would go and talk to their

133

patient. Now, of course, they would ask for permission for

134

me to be there just to shadow the doctor. But

135

then they would find out about whatever symptom they were

136

adding. And certain men, they would go to the back

137

office, they would look at this black book and then

138

they would see, okay, for this type of thing, I

139

need to prescribe this type of medicine. I'm like, no,

140

this is not the case kind of doctor I want

141

to become. So I said, scratch it. So then, then

142

I said, okay, I want to do the MD PhD

143

program. Not just get the MD, but earn a PhD

144

as well. And that program was extremely competitive. Although I

145

was an excellent student, I didn't get accepted to that

146

program. So then what I decided to do is, okay,

147

I'm going to work on my PhD first. So I

148

did a PhD in microbiology, immunology, to be more specific.

149

And then after that, my plan was to then go

150

back to medical school and the M. The md. But

151

things worked out differently because when I got married and

152

we were pregnant with our first child, I was like,

153

you know, I have to make some money. Because as

154

a PhD student they gave us like a thousand dollars

155

stipend. And then I didn't have to have to pay

156

for school, but that just wasn't enough. But anyway, and

157

then the only job I could find was to work

158

in tech. So kind of like the rest was history.

159

But then another thing that happened to me when I

160

was about 17, right when I came to the US

161

is it was in the mid-90s. And this, I don't

162

know, I guess it's just an insight, I don't know

163

where it came from, but I felt like in the

164

mid-90s, looking into the future, I'm like, no matter what

165

I do in school, I'm going to have to be

166

good at three things. And basically throughout my entire career

167

I've tried really hard to become good at those three

168

things. One was technology. Because I was seeing back in

169

the 90s, you've got Mel AOL and all that. I

170

was seeing how technology was changing everything. Even in biomedical

171

sciences, everything we did was pretty much, you know, supported

172

by tech now. So I was like, technology is the

173

future. I need to find a way to learn tech.

174

Number two. I was like, well I need to learn

175

about business too, right? It doesn't matter if I'm going

176

to become a medical doctor, maybe one day I will

177

have my own practice. I'm going to have to learn

178

to be profitable. So I will need to learn how

179

to run a business. So technically I started my own

180

business when I was about 18 years old in 97,

181

98, I was doing like I learned how to do

182

website, which was technology and nobody knew how to do

183

that then. So I made a whole bunch of money

184

doing websites for a lot of my professor, nonprofit, my

185

friends, lawyers, real estate investor. I mean a whole bunch

186

of people. I even run the ad in the school

187

newspaper and I would be gang referral that way. And

188

back then it was a lot of money for me.

189

As an international student I was charging about $2,000 per

190

website. And then I was like, okay, when you charge

191

$2,000, that's a one time thing, then I need to

192

get money over and over again. So then I started

193

having some type of subscription, kind of like a lawyer.

194

You, you, you get you, you, you, you get me

195

on a retainer and anything goes wrong I will make

196

update and stuff. So anyway I started with one client.

197

I ended up with like a dozen, dozen clients while

198

I was going school full time. That really helped pay

199

a lot of my, my school fees. But, but anyway,

200

I had that idea, yes, technology. But then I need

201

to learn how to do business too, and differently, how

202

to run a profitable business. Now the good thing for

203

me is my mother and my dad, they were both

204

entrepreneur growing up and we, we had a yogurt business

205

that made a whole bunch of money. Really helped support

206

me throughout my entire life. And when I was a

207

kid, usually during the summer, I would work full time

208

from my parents, so I would become a sales, a

209

salesperson and sell yogurt and things. So I

210

did learn a few things about business for my parents

211

growing up. Just watching, watching them and see how entrepreneurial

212

they were.

213

Roy: But then it's amazing when you go through that experience,

214

you learn what to do, but more importantly, you learn

215

what not to do, right?

216

Bob: Yes, absolutely. No. How to handle people, hire people and

217

get rid of them when they don't add much value,

218

but especially how to listen to the customer because really

219

the customers are king. Without them, you don't have a

220

business at all. And then I have to use marketing

221

and all of that to attract more customer and then

222

sign big, big, big contract and stuff. So yeah, I

223

did learn a lot growing up with my, with my

224

parents. That was really a blessing. But then the first

225

thing was leadership. I was like, I need to learn

226

how to lead people because like even my first dream,

227

right, if I become a medical doctor, I have my

228

own clinic or whatever, because my, my uncle had two

229

clinic he went to. First he became a cardiologist. And

230

then he came back to Africa, not to the Congo,

231

but to Gabon, where he had a very successful clinic.

232

And then he decided to come back to the Congo

233

where he had two, two clinics. And he was the

234

art surgeon as well. And then around 96, 97, when

235

I came to the US, a civil war broke out.

236

So he left the Congo. So he's back in France

237

now. But anyway, but even him, he was kind of

238

like my role model. When you have a clinic, you

239

have to hire other doctors, nurses and stuff. So you

240

do need to learn how to lead people, how to

241

influence them. So I was like, that's another skill I

242

definitely need to get whether I become a doctor. And

243

later on I even got into tech. It doesn't matter.

244

Technology, right? Business and leadership, those are three skills I

245

absolutely need to have. So throughout my entire career, I

246

really did everything I could to become really Good at

247

those three things, including later on joining the US Navy.

248

Leadership was something I was really a lot of the

249

books. I probably read more than 3,000 books by now.

250

But how do you first influence yourself? How do you

251

lead yourself? But then how do you lead people? All

252

kinds of people. And I've really learned a lot. Again,

253

part of the reason why now I have my own

254

leadership podcast and I'm writing my first leadership book, which

255

I'm hoping will be released sometimes early next year. But,

256

yeah, it is a lot of learning. But I feel

257

like these three skills, I've helped me a lot, and

258

that's really what I try to convey to my mentees

259

and the people I coach, because I feel like in

260

the age of artificial intelligence, leadership is even more critical

261

today because that's something that AI will never be to

262

do.

263

Roy: Yeah, I think that's, that's a good point. And, and

264

you know, even with one of the things I always

265

say to people on the AI side is you have

266

to remain the architect. You have to remain the leader

267

of your agents and of the, of the AI. Otherwise,

268

yeah, it does what it wants to do, which is

269

so much like, like the human side of things. And.

270

Yeah, and it's the communication that's so important, isn't it?

271

You need to be able to listen. You need to

272

be able to listen. That's the first thing for me

273

is how do I actually listen and hear what people

274

are saying and what do they mean by what they're

275

saying? And I think we just listen so often as

276

humans. We listen to answer and we need to listen

277

to understand. Yeah.

278

Bob: Like, one of the other books that will impact me

279

was Stephen Covey. Right. The Seven Habit of Highly Successful

280

People, where I say you have to listen, not to

281

respond, but to actually understand. And that's, that's one thing

282

I had to learn to do. Right. My mom told

283

me so many times when I was growing up, right.

284

God gave me two ears and one mouth, and I

285

need to use them in those proportion. Right. Listen as

286

much, much more than I do speak. And. Yeah, because

287

when you listen to people, then you understand where they

288

come from, and that really helps you then be able

289

to solve their problem. Like one of the things I

290

learned when I say then business skill, and one important

291

skill in business is really being a salesperson. Yeah, you

292

might be shy and stuff, but if you can sell

293

anything, you will never prosper, you will never be profitable.

294

And for you to be able to sell anything, first

295

you need to understand what your customer needs. Well, you

296

don't just want to give them something that they don't

297

have that many useful. So you have to stop, listen

298

to their needs and then you can come up with

299

a solution. You're almost like a consultant, right? Okay, this

300

is the problem. This is how I understand it and

301

this is what I can do to help you solve

302

your critical problem. And I think Zig Ziglar, if you

303

help enough people solve their problem, you'll never have to

304

worry about money. Right? Because then they will in return

305

take care of your needs as well with the composition

306

they give you. But listening is a very, very critical

307

skill.

308

Roy: Tell us a little bit about your career in the

309

military.

310

Bob: Yeah, so 911 is what did it for me. But

311

even prior to that at the University of Alabama we

312

had ROTC program. That's where Americans go. And we had

313

one for the Air Force and one for the army.

314

They would pay for their school and then once they

315

finish with the program, they would then join the Air

316

Force or the army as an officer. So because I

317

was really good at math, they gave me this placement

318

test when I came in as a freshman at the

319

university. Basically I didn't need to take math at all.

320

So what the university decided is as a biology major.

321

Normally math125, which was calculus, would be the last class

322

you would take as a senior. But since no, I

323

was so good at math, they let me take it

324

as a freshman. So to me, again, I had done

325

that in high school, so it was just a review.

326

Of course I made an A plus. However, about half

327

of my class were ROTC officers from the army. And

328

they didn't get math at all. Not at all. And

329

they were like, I absolutely have to pass this class

330

because if I don't, the, the army is going to

331

kick me out of a program. So I, I did

332

it for, for free. I mentored them and most of

333

them got Cs and a couple got beats. But really

334

they didn't get it at all. But it was so,

335

so easy for me. So another thing I did to

336

help with my school fees when I was a student,

337

I became a mentor so people would pay me to,

338

to mentor them. But that's when I saw, okay, these

339

people are in the army. And I knew army was

340

leadership. People like General Collins Powell, I think you have

341

his book right right up there. He was my long

342

distance mentor until I met him. I'm like, that's even

343

the essence of leadership, right? So like I say, technology

344

was one of the things I wanted to learn. Eventually

345

I got into technology by working for the university libraries.

346

I was like a computer tech assistant. That's kind of

347

how I got my start. But the other one was

348

leadership. So I tried to get into the Army IOTC

349

or the Air Force ROTC program, because I knew if

350

I went to the program, then I would become an

351

officer and I would really learn how to lead. But

352

at the time, I was not the Assembly. I was

353

not a US Citizen, I was not a permanent resident,

354

so there was no way I could become an officer.

355

So I let that go. Then after 9, 11, again,

356

I wasn't a permanent resident yet, but my wife was

357

a US Citizen and we were pregnant and our baby

358

would. Would be a US Citizen as well. So I'm

359

like, okay, let me go talk now to the Navy,

360

to the army, to all of them, not just becoming

361

an officer, but maybe I can even come in as

362

an enlisted person again, learn those leadership skills in the

363

most powerful military in the world. All of them told

364

me to go Pakistan. You know, I am not a

365

citizen. I am not permanent resident, so I cannot even

366

be enlisted, even though I already had a degree by

367

them. But then, like the Terminator, I told them, I'll

368

be back, right? So I got my green card in

369

2004. It was like August. So then I went back

370

again. But now I knew not to talk to the

371

army of Americans because those were like, crazy. They're just

372

nuts. But the. The Air Force and the Navy, those

373

people, I felt like they use their brand more than

374

they use their body. And with my education background, especially

375

in the tech field, that would be more aligned. So

376

I went talk to the Air Force and the Nadia

377

told them, I told you I'll be back. Now I

378

am a permanent resident. So how do I sign up?

379

Again, a SEAL couldn't be an officer because I didn't

380

have a citizenship. But then they say, okay, you can

381

become an it. A tech. IT

382

Information technician for the Navy or the Air Force.

383

However, since you already have a degree, you don't have

384

to start at the very bottom. We can probably start

385

even as a petty officer, like an E4. So you

386

skip like free rank. But again, because I wasn't a

387

citizen, I couldn't get a clearance, so that wasn't possible.

388

So they forced me to start at the very bottom.

389

So I got into the Navy as an E1, as

390

a seaman recruit. That's kind of how my military career

391

started. But then after boot camp, I was like, you

392

know, one of two things will happen to me if

393

I'm going to end up my career in the Navy

394

as a senior enlisted, which is E78, E9 or I'm

395

going to become an officer and end up as a

396

senior officer. Right. Commander or Captain. And yeah, and

397

after boot camp, I was still a. At least I

398

went from seaman recruit to seaman. But they couldn't promote

399

me to free, which is paed off the subclass again

400

because to take the advancement exam, a portion of that

401

is classified. And I wasn't eligible for a clearance since

402

I wasn't a US Citizen. But because I had joined

403

the military, they really fast tracked my application for citizenship.

404

So the day I became a citizen, I went back

405

to the officer recruiter office and I was okay, I

406

told you I'll be back. I am a U.S. citizenship.

407

I am a U.S. citizen. Now. How do I become

408

a Naval officer? So the process took about a year,

409

a year and a half. So within that time I

410

was able to advance to it. Free family. And then

411

I went from E4 all the way up to 01.

412

I became an Ensign in the US Navy in 2007.

413

Was it September 12, 2007. So after about three and

414

a half years as enlisted, I became an officer like

415

say the rest is history. And finally in 2021, so

416

that was what, five, five years ago, I became a

417

commander, the most powerful Navy in the world. And I'm

418

going to be retiring soon. So I went from E1,

419

which is the very, very bottom, to becoming a senior

420

officer in the Navy again. That was the leadership skill

421

is what I was looking for. And becoming an officer

422

in the Navy has definitely shown me how to lead

423

in times of war and peace and especially when the

424

stakes are the highest, when the lives of your sailors

425

are at risk. So there is no greater leadership experience

426

than that because after becoming a commander, I even really

427

got lucky and privileged to become a commanding officer. And

428

when you are a commanding officer in the Navy, we

429

believe in command by negation. That's very different than the

430

army, the Air Force and, and the other branches because

431

usually as a sailor you are away at sea, so

432

there is nobody to tell you what to do. All

433

you have is the intent of your superior. And then

434

you, the bucks really, really stops with you. And you

435

make all of the decision for everybody under your care.

436

You're in charge of both the mission and, and the

437

people. So that really gave me experience I would have

438

never got anywhere else in the world. And amazing.

439

Roy: And what a journey that must have been, right? It's

440

just so many different perspectives to understand and to learn.

441

And so coming out of that, I say coming out

442

of that, you're not out of that yet.

443

Bob: But yeah, I am definitely on my. On my way

444

out. I am no longer active. But yes.

445

Roy: So now we go into your entrepreneurial journey and

446

tell me a bit more about that now.

447

Bob: Because of my parents, even when I have a full

448

time job and I am an individual contributor or a

449

leader and I work for an organization, I always see

450

myself as an entrepreneur, right. I always see myself working

451

for me. So I am the CEO of my own

452

business. I am. I always see myself as a consultant.

453

Even though I am W2 and I get paid every

454

two weeks or every month or whatever. I don't really

455

work for the company, I work for me. So I

456

see myself as a consultant. And another person who brought

457

me that perspective is Brian Tracy, another one of my

458

mentor. He lives here in California, in San Diego. One

459

of the book he wrote it. That's Frog. It was

460

the best ever for a very, very long time. He's

461

written many, many books. I've read pretty much all of

462

his books and I really like the way he thinks.

463

And basically when you are in charge of your own

464

life, when you are in charge of your own business,

465

even if you work for someone And I've always had

466

something working on the side. Like I started when I

467

was a student at ua. I was doing website and

468

stuff and then I got into a whole bunch of

469

things. I became a consultant and I did a bunch

470

of stuff on the side. But. But it was always

471

Bob Fibian Zinga working for Bob Fibian Zinga. I just

472

happened to be at this company at this time. So

473

it's about how do I add value? What would I

474

hire myself if I work for this company? Because the

475

truth is. And General Powell talked about that too for

476

most people like the last Harvard Business Review because I

477

am on their board of advisor for the magazine. They

478

had said that about most people. It's about 25% also

479

is really what they give to their company. They don't

480

give 100% of their ability to their employer because they

481

go to work, they read the newspaper, they check their

482

email, they do a whole bunch of stuff. When it

483

comes to what they actually do to earn their paycheck,

484

generally speaking it's about 20, 25, 30%. And general common

485

power said we have management technically because that's another reason

486

why I had to earn my Master of Business Administration.

487

Learn about management and business. But with all of the

488

management science, because it is a science you could probably

489

get people to get up to 100% of their potential.

490

In theory, you could. That doesn't always work that way,

491

but that is possible, at least with the tools that

492

you learn in school and so forth. With the science,

493

that is a possibility. But leadership goes above and beyond

494

that. With leadership, you can get to 110, 120%. And

495

the way you can do that, because leaders. Leadership is

496

more than a science, it is an art. And I've

497

seen it in my own eyes in the military, where

498

people are willing to give their life to die for

499

the sailor to their right and to their left, and

500

I can for them too. That's because we have a

501

mission that is greater than ourselves. So it goes beyond

502

management. It gets into leadership. So I have seen that

503

with my own eyes. So there is a big, big

504

difference between the two. So really, when it comes to

505

leadership, it is having a common vision. Right? So you

506

have this mission, you have this vision, and you have

507

the core values which all of you guys shared and

508

you are committed to that and also taking care of

509

each other. Right. In the Navy, we say, I think

510

we started from the army, but no mission first. But

511

people, people always, always caring for people, but really truly

512

caring for your people. It's not just like a check,

513

a checkbox, or just lip service because your people would

514

know the difference. Almost like being a parent. That taught

515

me to be a leader as well. Because your children

516

can really smell BS a mile away. They know when

517

you mean it, when you, you do not. Right. And

518

when you're really true in it. I mean, it's really

519

the difference between night and day. So that is, that

520

is really, I think in my life, some of the

521

lessons I have learned, but it has really been impactful.

522

That's how you are able to really lead a highly

523

impactful team, highly if, if effective team. And together you

524

can do so much more than you can each do

525

separately. You really build that energy.

526

Roy: I think, I think the, the thing that speaks to

527

me about what you're saying is that for the entrepreneurial

528

spirit, for entrepreneurs, that, that, that entrepreneurs are my people.

529

Yeah, I love entrepreneurs. Because.

530

Bob: Yes.

531

Roy: Yeah, we go into the world, we see a problem

532

that we think we can help with, and we step

533

out of our comfort zone and we go into you

534

helping with this problem and we give everything of ourselves

535

for it. And quite often we do that at, at

536

the cost to our own health and at the cost

537

to our own lives. And you know, this is, this

538

is, this is one of the things I work a

539

lot with. And you know, what you said there about

540

vision is so important because if you can't articulate your

541

vision in a really powerful way, you can't get your

542

team to rally around you, you know, and to give

543

more of themselves. Right. So getting that vision very, very

544

clear is so important. And I think, yeah, I'm going

545

to segue now into the new world, right? Yeah. And

546

the new world of AI and the new world of

547

disruption that's coming and the new world of possibility that's

548

out there.

549

Bob: Right.

550

Roy: What do you make of where we're going?

551

Bob: Yeah, it's quite interesting. And back then we didn't have

552

AI, at least not the way we had machine learning,

553

but not AI the way we have it now, especially

554

generative AI. But I kind of knew the 21st century

555

would be like this age of, I guess, IT information,

556

right? Because the information has just not expanded. Because back

557

then, even 1 to 2000, where Google became really, really

558

big and search, search engine, and also I was kind

559

of already seeing a trend, not just technology taking over

560

everything, but also the knowledge expanding so much. Like for

561

eggs, for example. Right. Like I say, I was in

562

the PhD program at the university where I got ABD

563

all but the dissertation. My main professor was telling me

564

back in the 80s when he went through a similar

565

program. He had this PhD in immunology. He knew absolutely

566

everything there was to know about immunology, everything. But in

567

the year 2000, when I was going through the same

568

program is like, there is absolutely no way we can

569

know everything now because the knowledge has just expanded exponentially.

570

It's impossible to know everything, just impossible because it is

571

really growing at machine speed. So what I really, I

572

guess the insight I had, yeah, we are going into

573

the 21st century, you know, 2000 and beyond. That's going

574

to be the age of information. But now we know

575

for sure it's the age of artificial intelligence. So it's

576

really changing a lot of things. But again, looking at

577

where we are now and where we are going, like

578

even Silicon Valley, it was really in 2021, right. 2022,

579

when generative AI really blew up. Prior to that, you've

580

got to know, I took a position. I was the

581

head of information technology and security for a startup in

582

San Francisco. I was in 2019. And part of the

583

reason why I went to work there is because they

584

were using AI Back then. AI wasn't as big as

585

it is now, but I could see the potential and

586

I really wanted to learn about it. They use artificial

587

intelligence and Machine learning for customer support. And I helped

588

that company be aware of pre IPU and the benchmark

589

because of the pandemic, we didn't go ipo, but I

590

helped them and get acquired, merger and acquisition by, by,

591

by a bigger company. But in anyway so I, I

592

again there are certain things I'm like, no, I need

593

to learn this or I need to work my life

594

in such a way that I, I, I gain those

595

skills which I believe are going to be really in

596

demand in the future. Because even now you, you look,

597

I have two kids, one of them graduated from college

598

last year. My second one just starting college this week.

599

But it's like they can't even get those entry level

600

jobs that my generation had, right? Gen Z is like

601

AI is taking over all of our opportunities. And during

602

the commencement address this past year, anybody mentioned AI, they

603

were booing at them. No, we don't want to hear

604

it. We are completely against it. So they are going

605

through something I think no generation has gone through before.

606

Even here in Silicon Valley, when AI really started to

607

blow up, they were like, no, AI, AI will never

608

take away your job. It's just going to help you

609

be better at it. But in Silicon Valley, I came

610

to Silicon Valley in 2014, so 12 years ago. I

611

can tell you here the number one job has always

612

been software development. If you are a software developer, you

613

can write code. You are at the very, very top

614

of the society here. You get paid the most and

615

people want to cudgel you. They give you free food,

616

free practice, they do all kinds of things to, to

617

get you to join that company because code is key.

618

But today I know big company like Meta, Fortune 100

619

company, Google, they've been able to replace a lot of

620

their software developer with AI. Although AI is making some

621

considerable mistake though in this small control lab they can

622

do okay. But when you put them into production like

623

Google, one of their AI deleted the hard drive full

624

with code. Now the AI said it was sorry, but

625

it didn't recreate the code. So now they're trying to

626

rehire a lot of the software developer they laid up.

627

I guess what I'm saying is the world is really

628

truly changing. And I believe back to the insight I

629

had when I was about 17 years old is leadership,

630

I believe is even more important now than it has

631

ever been in our existence. Because yes, we can use

632

automation, robotic AI and all of those things, but we

633

will always need people who can lead other people, people

634

who are going to be able to drive those projects

635

so that's one skill that AI will never ever be

636

able to take away from humanity. Right. And especially in

637

the field. I am still in now in the government,

638

in the military, when talking about national security, again, it's

639

a matter of life and death. We cannot just let

640

machines take over and make decision. There is a reason

641

why there is a commanding officer and we need the

642

commander's intent and there needs to be human in the

643

loop and a human person needs to decide. Yeah, you

644

can get the help of AI to analyze now thousands,

645

not hundreds of thousands, millions of data. AI does it

646

much better than any human analyst. That is true. But

647

when it comes to making the decision, are we going

648

to push the button and it a target, a human

649

being has to make that decision.

650

Roy: Yeah, 100% agree with that, I think. Yeah, the human

651

element is where we are going to differentiate ourselves as

652

companies. Right. I've seen this over the last three and

653

a half years that I've been very really deep in.

654

I mean, I've been in tech for most of my

655

life and yeah, I've seen this coming. And what's going

656

to happen, what's already happening is you'll see companies trying

657

to automate everything. You know, then they'll realize that there's

658

things that are automatable and there's things that aren't, you

659

know, so, you know, then they have to go back

660

the other way. Right. And.

661

Bob: Sure.

662

Roy: Excuse me. Yeah. So what are the things that humans

663

can do that AI can't do? And how do you

664

get your team to do more human things and then

665

get the AI to do the things that aren't more

666

human or that aren't required by human, that humans don't

667

like doing. And if you can do that, if you

668

can be a more human organization, that's when you're going

669

to really rise to the surface.

670

Bob: Absolutely. Because part of leadership is also emotional intelligence, awareness,

671

but also empathy. And of course, a machine will never

672

ever be able to show that. So there are several

673

things that human can do that today's AI cannot do.

674

Not merely because AI needs more computing power, but because

675

humans are living, they are embodied, they are conscious, they

676

are morally accountable beings. Sometimes the AI can appear to

677

be conscious, but it doesn't have a conscious at all.

678

I think a useful distinction is that AI can simulate

679

many expressions of humanity. And simulation is not the same

680

as possessing the underlying human experience. So there's a big,

681

big difference. So a lot of things that human can

682

do that AI absolutely cannot is experience life. Right. Humans

683

feel the pain, the joy, the grief, the love, the

684

fear, the awe, the exhaustion and all of those, right?

685

I can recognize because in a way, AI

686

can kind of take it in many, many ways. That's

687

why, like something really, really tragic. I was two years

688

ago, right, that little boy, I believe, from Florida, he

689

was 12, 13 years old. And if he thought he

690

was in love with this llamath and then unfortunately he

691

committed suicide because they were going to meet in some

692

AI event and B2 to Together Forever. So people

693

have this emotional attachment to the machine and they feel

694

it is real, but it really is not, right? Because

695

AI can recognize, even discuss and respond to description of

696

those experiences, but AI cannot experience them. So I think

697

that is important to know loving someone. I've heard of

698

AI people actually getting married with their AI bot, which

699

is just ridiculous, but it actually happened. I think there's

700

another company that's. That's making it so that you can

701

have a date with your AI. Basically they use a

702

phone. I think that was in New York. But no,

703

AI can produce compassionate language and help someone express love.

704

But AI does not form a human bond or miss

705

someone or sacrifice and all of that. So doesn't have

706

any lived experiences, cannot exercise genuine moral agency and bear

707

responsibility. Now I speak a lot about 12 to 15

708

times every year on cybersecurity, privacy and those type of

709

thing. And the emerging tech. And I used to joke

710

about two years ago, hey, if AI commits a crime,

711

who is going to go to jail? But a few

712

weeks ago, AI did commit a crime. OpenAI went ahead

713

and hacked the system of their customer. I think at

714

least three of their customers. That is a crime. So

715

who's going to go to jail for that? We cannot

716

take chat deputy to jail. So who's going to be

717

responsible, right? So I think that's why governance is so

718

important in the age of artificial intelligence. And there needs

719

to be someone who's going to be responsible for what

720

the AI does. Because AI absolutely has no agency. And

721

AI also doesn't have any intrinsic purpose like humans do,

722

right? Because as human being, we can ask, why am

723

I here? What kind of person should I become? What

724

is worth sacrificing for? What legacy do I want to

725

leave? AI can help explore some of those questions. But

726

AI doesn't have a life whose meaning is.

727

Roy: I think what's really, for me being quite interesting to

728

see is how AI can really amplify the

729

shortfalls of humanity as we stand, we shouldn't be in

730

this situation. We really lost this ability to connect. We

731

lost ability to, to communicate correctly. We lost abilities, many

732

abilities that, you know, make us human. You know, and

733

hopefully this, this, I mean, AI can definitely give us

734

an age of plenty. You know, medical is going to

735

get better. You know, farming is going to get better.

736

You know, we're going to have more time on our

737

hands. There's going to be more, more money to be

738

made by everybody. There's a, there's a whole big school

739

of thought around this. Then just maybe, just maybe that

740

gives us the opportunity to explore what it means to

741

be human. Right. And to, and to really, you know,

742

honor that as, as people. Because, you know, we, we

743

have this unique thing called life. And you, I, I,

744

I've been through the, the, the mill and, and we,

745

we'll speak about that when, when we meet up on

746

your podcast. I'm looking forward to that. And yeah, the,

747

the, the, I would much rather be in Iceland having

748

experience with my family. Yeah. Than necessarily just working 14

749

hours a day to make money. Right. Because there's an

750

element of being human that's so important and experiencing things

751

and going out into the world and seeing what's there

752

and, and just, just maybe AI gives us the, or

753

more of us the opportunity to do that.

754

Bob: I, I, I really do observe. I think it really

755

depends on how we take it, which direction we lead

756

it. Because during the pandemic, I think in Silicon Valley,

757

one thing that happened which I really loved, is it

758

helped us to just slow down and even stop, right.

759

And really reconsider what is really important. Because prior to

760

the pandemic, prior to 2020, I mean, we would be

761

working like 60, 70, 80 hours a week here. It's

762

like no, work, work, work. You say you love your

763

family, you say you have values, but you don't spend

764

any time your family. Yeah, you make a whole bunch

765

of money, but, but you never have quality time with

766

the people you say you care about the most. And

767

during the pandemic, it really forced us to reconsider our

768

values and our priorities. And I think that is really

769

important. That's really what makes us human. Because for anybody,

770

once you are at your deathbed, you're never going to

771

say, oh, I want to go back to the office

772

and make an extra dollars. That's not going to come

773

to your mind. I can guarantee that it's going to

774

be the people you love, the people you impacted, the

775

relationships you have. And another thing about AI too, is

776

it can generate options, right. But the human being are

777

the one to choose, right? AI can analyze the consequences,

778

but again, human being have to accept responsibility. AI can

779

provide information, but again, the human being have to exercise

780

the judgment. AI can imitate empathy, but human experience compassion.

781

AI can help formulate values, but humans decide what they

782

stand for. And I think that really makes a big,

783

big difference. Who are we? Because the vision of AI

784

you get is kind of like everything is going to

785

be so good and rosy and the world's going to

786

be a better place. But the truth is there is

787

a. A vision opposed to that too. Right. Where AI

788

is going to start killing everybody and the world is

789

going to go to. To actually, one. One question I

790

ask on my podcast, too, is no. Seeing how AI

791

is being developed. Right. Right now, do you believe in

792

dystopia or utopia? Right. Because I think as of today,

793

we can still go either way because remember, men tend

794

to be very greedy. And although we can use AI

795

to do a lot of goods, and we can, and

796

we should, but there are people out there who are

797

thinking about how to use AI to kill people. Kind

798

of like the atomic bomb. Right. How can we use

799

drone AI powered to actually destroy? So there is kind

800

of like that balance we, We. We always have to

801

keep in mind. I think there's a lot of good

802

that can come out of it, but if you are

803

not careful, a lot of evil can come out of

804

that too.

805

Roy: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's. That's. Yeah, that's

806

where our power comes into it. That's where our power

807

of people speaking out come into it. Yeah. And if

808

we, if we can speak the positive and be aware

809

of the negative, but speak the positive and make the

810

positive options real for people, then we can make a

811

difference.

812

Bob: Absolutely. That's why I think with AI, governance is really

813

key. It is absolutely critical, and it has to be

814

governed according to our values.

815

Roy: Yeah. So one more thing before we close. If you

816

were to lead, leave people with one thought a year

817

of your life, of your history, of your stories, what

818

would be the most powerful message that you could leave

819

people with?

820

Bob: Well, I. The older I get, maybe I got this

821

from my primary mentor, Dr. John C. Maxwell. So about

822

five years ago, I was in a position where I

823

felt like I pretty much accomplished everything I wanted to

824

accomplish in life. Right above. And above everything I could

825

have imagined this little kid. Upon the Republic of Congo.

826

I came to America. I couldn't barely speak English. I

827

had only enough money to pay for one year of

828

school, and here I am today. I became a chief

829

information security officer when I started 30 years ago being

830

a computer network assistant. And then I joined the Navy

831

as a seaman recruit, the lowest rank. And then I

832

ended up becoming a commander and the most powerful Navy

833

in the world. So I start at the very bottom,

834

and then I end up at the very, very top.

835

So I was, okay, I am relatively successful. But the

836

thing with success is it really doesn't satisfy, right? Because

837

I think if you don't have money, money means everything

838

to you. However, if you have enough money, then it

839

doesn't mean anything anymore because if you're able to take

840

care of your bills, you've got a house, a car

841

and all of those things, you can buy more houses

842

and more cars, but you can only sleep in one

843

bed at a time. You can only drive one car

844

at a time. So it really loses its value. So

845

it was time for me to move from success to

846

significance. And My primary mentor, Dr. Maxwell, says, Once you

847

test significance, you will never, ever success will never satisfy.

848

And I think that is so true because with significance,

849

it's no longer about you, but it's about you really

850

caring about other people. Now you want to help other

851

people achieve their own level of success. You want people

852

to reach their potential, discover their purpose, and live on,

853

on purpose. So I think one of the most important

854

thing now, again, the older I get, the more I

855

realize I'm not on this earth just for me, myself.

856

And I know again, that is perfectly fine. You're starting

857

in life. You have to struggle at time and also

858

until you are able to take care of yourself. But

859

once you do that, once you attain a certain level

860

of success, I think it's really your duty and your

861

responsibility to start helping other people. So part of the

862

thing I am doing with my podcast, for example, is

863

I'm thinking about Bob Fibian Zinger. When I was 17

864

years old, when I just started in life, when I

865

first joined the Navy, what I wish I had known

866

back then, that I do know now. And I think

867

that mentorship, that knowledge can really close the gap and

868

really help people live on purpose. Because yeah, you can

869

go after money, nothing wrong with that. But if money

870

is all you are seeking, I think your life is

871

going to be pretty empty, right? And I believe in

872

life. Another one of my mentor, Tony Robbins really taught,

873

taught me this is in addition to the science of

874

success, you really need to learn the art of fulfillment.

875

Because if you are not fulfilled in life, it doesn't

876

matter how much money you are, because when you die,

877

you're not going to take it with you. It's not

878

like when someone dies, the earth is followed by you

879

all with all of your money, gold, TV and houses.

880

No, that doesn't happen. All that is going to stay

881

right here. But it's really the impact you are having

882

on the life of other people. So if there's anything

883

I have learned throughout my my life, really, one of

884

the main message I am preaching out now is, yeah,

885

don't just live for yourself, but add value to other

886

people. And I think that's going to help you really

887

live a life of purpose, but also get fulfillment.

888

Roy: Magical. Well, thank you very much for joining me. It's

889

been a pleasure speaking to you and we look forward

890

to speaking to you again soon.

891

Bob: Thanks, Roy. Appreciate that.