Superstar podcaster and creator Jordan Harbinger touches on the toxic evolution of men without role models, the weird ways perception changes across groups, the difficulty of gauging progress in unquantifiable areas, and how charisma is a learnable skill, which can make you a better networker, increase confidence, and lead to deeper relationships.

Jordan Harbinger has always had an affinity for

social influence interpersonal dynamics and social engineering.

He is the host of one of the most popular podcasts in the

world. I'm excited to introduce him to you guys. So Jordan,

thanks for being here.

Hey, thanks for having me on. And I

appreciate it.

Yeah. So what do you think are some of the key differences

between ordinary guys and extraordinary men? Or how do you

sort of draw that line?

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an interesting

sort of distinction, right? Because there's so many guys out

there that don't really know what either of those things

mean, right. So you've got these weird camps and stuff we can get

into later, where, you know, guys think they're supposed to

be one way, and they're not the other and we're not kids

anymore, we can't get away with the same type of stuff, we can't

ditch responsibility, you know, people aren't really going to

take the same level of forgiveness to the way that we

carry ourselves, or the, you know, can't be as selfish, there

was just a lot of things that went into becoming more of a

mature guy. And I also noticed that especially some of the guys

that I just know, personally that I grew up with, they were

just really not, not really interested in addressing that

whole thing. So that I still have people that I grew up with

were like, living with their parents, or they're going to

work every day, because they do have a job. But maybe they're

like, oh, you know, this isn't what I'm really going to do

later on, I'm going to do XYZ, and it's just like all this

ridiculous, kind of childish stuff, they don't want to make

the transition. And I'm not totally blaming laziness or

society or anything like that, I think that just, there's not a

clear path anymore, which is both good and bad. You know,

it's good, because now we don't have to work a nine to five, and

we don't have to grow up, get married and have kids, if you

don't want to, you don't even have to live in the same country

you grew up in, and you can work from home and all this cool

stuff. But on the other hand, there's no real clear

transition, you know, back in the 60s, and earlier and, and,

to a lesser extent, even in the 70s, and 80s, it was kind of

like, this is what kids do. Okay, you're 18, get a job, you

know, graduated from high school, get a job, figure the

rest out on your own. And that worked for a lot of people

because they were thrown into the fryer. And my dad was one of

those guys were graduated from high school. And at that point

in Detroit, everybody was going getting a job in the auto

industry. And that was what you did. And my dad went, I'm gonna

go to college, because a lot of the bosses are, you know,

college educated guys, and I want to be one of them. So you

went to college, paid his own way, I helped his brothers and

sisters go to college. And now it's like, if you don't go to

college, and there was sort of a rite of passage in the in before

our time that now no longer exists. So now it's like, do I

go to college? Do I not go to college? Do I get a job? Do I

start a business, our ideas of what makes a man are completely

skewed and screwed up? And there's no real good role models

to look at to figure out what to do? You can look at your own

parents. But if they're screwed up, you're kind of out of luck.

What are you going to do look at the NBA. I mean, you don't have

a whole lot of options.

What do you think are some of like the misconceptions that

guys have about what it takes to be a man?

Yeah, there's tons of stuff like that out

there. Because since this vacuum has happened, there's this whole

camp of guys that got started with like, maybe a few of these

modern men's movements, and some of them are really unhealthy.

Like there's this whole Pickup Artists movement, right? Where

guys, like, here's how you get chicks. Because somewhere along

the line, we started measuring ourselves by that. And so guys

went out and tried to master that which in a weird, self,

destructive, misogynistic way. There's these other camps that

turned into like, No, we have to be really, really respectful.

And we got to make sure everybody around us feel safe

and loved, which is great. Don't get me wrong. And the idea is

great, but the execution is usually something along the

lines of please everyone, but yourself. And eventually people

will love you for that. And then of course, when that doesn't

happen, you get these angry people, pleaser, guys that are

like really resentful of pretty much all of humanity. And then

they turn into the next camp of guys. In fact, I'm almost going

in an evolution here. Then they turn into the next camp of guys,

which are these like, really weird men's rights activists?

Have you ever heard of this? It's called like the men's

rights activist thing. And I'm sure that there's probably some

guys who are gonna yell at you and me about how I'm lumping

everybody together, but I don't care. But these guys, what they

do is they they write things like, oh, you know, 10 rules

for, and I'm not even I'm not even going to quote and I'm

going to loosely paraphrase for your show. Because otherwise,

it's just too offensive. But I read an article that was very

typical of one of these sites. And I read it recently because

someone sent it to me, a female friend of mine, she's like, is

this real? And I was like, sadly, yes. And it was like 10

ways to make sure your relationship goes the way you

want it to. And it's things like isolate her from her family and

friends make sure she knows her opinions don't matter. Like

don't spend any time with her family or her friends unless you

have to, you know, once a year on a holiday you can go to her

house otherwise it's all about you. You know, make sure she

doesn't have a career that it's like misogyny one on one, but

like created in a way that's way too well thought out to be like

a joke. It's clearly like this guy has implemented This stuff

and he's advocating that other people do. And people write

books about it. That stuff is creepy and weird. And when you

say something like that, then you become on their like weirdo

message boards, you become like this target. And there are

people that are like, I know where he lives, we should wait

outside his apartment and kick his ass because that's what,

that's what alpha males do. And then there's other guys that are

like, No, you'll get arrested, just screw up his credit by

doing this. And it's like, Are you kidding me, I have a

different opinion than you. And since you're a quote unquote,

alpha male, you're going to steal my identity, like get a

life, but guys are doing this. And it's a result of having no

idea what real men actually do, what real responsibility looks

like, what real, how you can actually be a strong guy and

show vulnerability and love other people and take care of

your brothers and sisters. And figuratively, or literally, it's

just like, oh, man, I grew up in this weird environment with bad

parents. So an idea of what a man is is like a supervillain

plus a Hollywood guy. You know, it's just weird.

So I want to turn the conversation now a little bit.

You talk about charisma. So you actually think that charisma is

is a learnable skill?

I don't just think that it's actually been

proven by science. The only people who think charisma and

personal skills are not learnable are people that either

are well behind the curve, which is fine, I can understand that,

but don't really want to put in the work to do it. It would be

like you ever have, do you have any friends that aren't doing so

well financially? And they say, well, it's easy for you because

this oh, well, I can't do that. Because of this. You ever have

any friends like that? Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So the

people who think Oh, charisma, personal skills network, and

that's not something you can learn. I wasn't born with the

gift of gab, the people who say that and quote unquote, truly

believe it are the people who go, oh, man, that looks like a

lot of work. I'd rather not highlight my shortcomings and

simply blame it on whatever genetics the economy,

circumstances beyond my control, you know, they'll force majeure

argument, right? And it's very, very, it's well established that

this is a nurturer not necessarily nature type of

thing. And I know, just from my personal observation, as well as

as well as the science, I know that it is teachable, because

that's what we do. If this was snake oil, we would have been

called out a long time ago, what a lot of people don't really get

their think like, oh, it's all about saying the right thing,

and you got to be quick on your feet. And maybe there's

something to that. But mostly, what it comes down to is a few

parts nonverbal communication, both reading and displaying, and

then the ability and willingness, frankly, to give

pretty much unendingly to others without the expectation of

getting something in return. So we teach a lot of nonverbal

communication skills and I can give you a drill towards the end

of the show that people listening can just try so we

teach a lot of nonverbal communication. In other words,

like looking acting, feeling confident, the the kind of like

fake it till you make it but for real, you know, science based,

nonverbal communication, how you're perceived, how others

perceive you. And of course, when you change your nonverbal

communication, to be more confident, more positive, more

charismatic, people start to treat you differently. And that

creates really good feedback loops where you think, okay, now

maybe I am that person, or how come everybody's being nice to

me today. And you've experienced this as well, I'm sure where

you're having a good day, you're in a good mood, and then

suddenly, other people are treating you really well. And

you're like, Well, today's a really good day, that's not an

accident. It's a result of the way that you're being as well.

It doesn't mean that people won't be snotty and rude to you.

If you're in a good mood. It just means that chances are, if

you're in a great mood, and you're engaging other people all

the time, and they're reading positivity, friendliness,

openness from you, and the way that they do that is

nonverbally, they're probably going to treat you differently

than they are going to treat the guy who looks grumpy, stressed,

and like he's just over it.

How do you go about doing that? Like, how do I start the

journey of becoming confident if I don't feel that way?

That's a great question. Especially because,

you know, a lot of people go well, what causes this in the

first place, and I don't want to zoom out too far. Because I'm

not a psychologist. I'll just blanket statements a parents

upbringing environment, that can ruin us, just as it can make us.

You know, the kids who were really fun, popular and great

and well adjusted in school, they had a different environment

than the kid who never said anything and had some trouble

going on at home. Right? We all that's like a cliche, it's so

obvious now. Now we look at the way that people are the way that

people behave. And as adults, we carry 99% of the crap we had in

childhood, we can slowly start to outgrow it. And we can slowly

start to become confident, but it doesn't mean all that stuff

goes away. It has to be a manual process. Just like if you're 100

pounds overweight. You don't just gradually Oh, you know what

I just randomly got in shape. No, it's you had to change your

habits, right? You had to change the way you eat. You have to

change the way you exercise. And usually you have to change the

way that you think about yourself. Because if you and I

grew up together, and you were fat when we were kids, and this

is hypothetical, I have no idea whether or not you were fat or

not. I Let's say that you were like 100 pounds overweight, you

were always a fat kid. And we went to college in different

places, and I haven't seen you, and then we have our high school

reunion. And you're thin, right? I know, you've made a change.

And it's dramatic. And everyone that knows, you knows that

you've made a change. Now, if I was always the shy kid, and you

know, all the way through middle school, high school, and then I

go to college, and we have our high school reunion, what would

it take for you to notice that I'm less shy? And how would you

measure that? You wouldn't really, I mean, you might

notice, because maybe I'm a little bit more outgoing than I

was, but you and I were friends. So I wasn't really shy with you.

I was more shy with, you know, women or other strangers, but

you wouldn't really notice that because the way I interact with

you hasn't changed all that much. And there's no gradient

that you can say, Well, Jordan was, you know, he used to be

really shy. And now he's what less shy I mean, those are the

most descriptive terms that you can really give that type of

change. It's another thing, if you look at people who knew me

growing up, and they go, Wow, you're like a totally different

person, because my change is really drastic. So when you look

at somebody who's has a physical change, that's dramatic, you go,

wow, you know, what, you really did something, what was it and

they have a strategy that was backed by science, that looks

like it probably was the reason why they've changed the way that

they appear. If I have science based strategies that change the

way that I behave, there's a 90% chance that most of the people

that I interact with will not even really notice that much.

Because they're wrapped up in their own stuff. Now, someone's

appearance is so basic, that you always notice the difference.

That's why you'll see somebody that you've known for years, and

you'll go, did you get a haircut or something? But you would

never go? Amen. Did you um, did you suddenly talk to three

strangers that you never would have talked to this morning,

you'd never, you know, you never will have that. So it's in part,

its measurement, or lack of ability to measure. And to it

has to be such a dramatic change for most people to notice other

than you, right? Because your first impressions are already

kind of made. That's why it's even more dramatic to notice

that somebody has lost weight, or gained it, versus somebody

who you know, changing their personality, because that image

is already there. If you meet a bunch of new people, after you

make dramatic changes to your personality, they see you in a

completely different way. That's why I go by my middle name now,

which is Jordan, and people who I grew up with are used to

calling me let's say, Eric, right? So people who I'm young

when I was younger, they go man, you you don't look like a

Jordan. I can't call you, Jordan. And people that I meet

now go, oh, man, I can't call you Eric. There's no way I could

call you, Eric. I don't look like a Jordan or not look like

an Eric. That's ridiculous, right? The only thing is their

perception of me their initial one is what's burned into their

brain. And so now the new one doesn't quite jive with what

they imagined me to be. And that's why it's so hard to

notice. If somebody's made dramatic changes. It's not that

it's not science based. It's not that this can't be done. It's

just that we don't have good measurements for it other than

subjective perception.

Yeah. So you mentioned that word perception. Is the

biggest part of perception, the way that we perceive ourselves

first, and then charisma or confidence become sort of the

outward display of the perception of ourselves. Would

you agree with that?

Oh, man, that's brilliant. Yeah. And in

fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. Because the thing

is, you can't be or it's very difficult to be outwardly

charismatic. If you have a lot of trouble perceiving yourself

as somebody who's confident now you can act charismatic, don't

get me wrong. So everyone right now is like no, but that one

guy, right? No, you can act charismatic. Look at a lot of

me, you see these actors that have like these crazy substance

abuse problems and stuff, when they're acting, they're

phenomenal. But they're acting, it's an art, right? You can try

to do that as much as you want. But the whole point of this

exercise is for you to become happier and more fulfilled, and

create better relationships not to make other people think that

you're cool. That's that's the unhealthy stuff that we were

just talking about in the beginning of the show. So we all

probably met those kids, or even adults where you think, man, you

know, this kid's so cool. He's tall. He's athletic. Oh, the

girl was like, Man, I wish I was him. And then you know, you have

that one drunken and like, cool, intimate conversation with the

guy and you find out that he like, hates his parents, and he

feels like he's stupid. And the only thing he has is athletics,

but he's not good enough to get into college. So he's like

really insecure about his future and you're like, holy crap, this

guy has real problems. What I didn't know that. You know, the

whole time. You're wishing you're wishing you're him and

he's thinking what am I going to do after this? Right? He's the

most insecure guy you've ever met. And the reason that you

thought that is because you went well, I'm below him on this

ladder and on this measurement, I'm less and on that other

measurement. I'm last and he's definitely beat got me beat

here, here and here. You know, you this is all a matter of self

perception, just as his shortcomings are also a matter

of self perception.

What is your definition of charm?

You know, it's really tough. Let people ask me

that all the time. But it really comes down to a lot of different

things. I mean, there's this cutesy definition where it's

like, getting the answer without having to ask the question, you

know, that's all fine and good. But it depends on a lot of such

I know, this is a worst answer ever. But it depends on the

situation, right? You know, if you're looking at at this from

like, the confidence and charisma angle that we've just

been discussing, it's literally to be so confident in yourself

that you're comfortable being authentic, which means you're

comfortable being vulnerable, because here's going back to the

beginning of this conversation, a lot of guys go, Yeah, I'm

confident I could like beat up anybody who disrespects me.

Well, that's not really confidence, right? Because

clearly, you're not going to beat up anyone who disrespects

you, you're tough guy, you're just really hurting and really

insecure. So you act like that, right. And you see these truly

confident guys that you've rarely meet. And they're really

honest about what they're afraid of. And then they're the ones

who are really close with their mothers and fathers and wives

and girlfriends and kids, because they can be vulnerable,

they can come back after a hard day of at work, and they can be

the spaghetti Flying Spaghetti Monster or whatever to their kid

and they can, they can take care of the emotional needs of their

family. That type of thing. That's extremely, that takes a

lot of development, right? And it takes a lot of confidence to

be able to go you know what, I'm going to quit this job that I

don't like and start a business. They're confident enough to

admit when they're wrong, they're confident enough to

continue learning through life without having to prove to other

people that they already know everything. So it's more like a

savoir faire type of thing that's evolved into really the

type of savoir faire itself, where it doesn't matter what

other people's perceptions might be. We may teach you to read

those and others we may teach you to display them well to

others. But really, it's about you, you know, it's about how

you feel how comfortable are you in your own skin because there's

nothing more attractive than somebody who's got that nailed.

Mm hmm. Well, I appreciate it, brother. You're doing a good

thing.

Appreciate it, man. Thank you