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In this episode we speak with Olivia Croom Hammerman about her journey from publishing project management on the west coast to New York managing editorial and design production. Olivia goes into the difference between the "factory floor" of a big-publishing art department, and the creative stimulation and collaboration that comes with creating an indie book design. She also breaks down exactly what a successful book cover is supposed to show to help it get sold.

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Enjoy today's interview. You

foreign Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast with me. Emily

Einolander, we're mapping the frontier between traditional and

indie publishing, and today we have Olivia Croom Hammerman on

Olivia Croom Hammerman is an award winning independent book

designer living in Manhattan with her husband and cat,

Amelia. You can find her work at Olivia creamdesign.com welcome

Olivia.

Hello. It's great to be here.

Olivia is a friend of the pod. She's She's

frequently interacting with us on social media, and she reached

out after we had our interview with Greg, because she has

worked with University of hell press sometimes. Yes, yeah, can

you, can you talk? Just name a couple of the books that you

worked on with them?

Let's see. The first one that I worked on with them

was the most fun you'll have it a cage fight by Rory Douglas,

which was great. I did the cover and the interior for that one.

And then let's see what, what are some other really fun ones?

So boys, by Suzanne burns, cover and interior for that. Let's see

I do the interiors for most of their books. Okay, cool. And

then sometimes the covers. Greg has a stable of us that he comes

to for the covers, so we rotate.

But I love referring to a collection of

contractors as a stable. Like, yeah, for some reason it doesn't

insult

me. Yeah? Me neither. I was like, That's cool, to be

clear. Greg has never used that term,

but it's very common. It's very common. Makes

me feel like a racehorse, yeah? I feel special, yeah, I feel

like they're gonna wear hats for me. Big, big floppy hats. All

right, well, please tell us a little bit about your background

in book publishing. Yes.

So I first started working on literary magazines

when I was in high school, and that was really my first

introduction to any sort of publishing process, I was very

interested in writing. I thought writing is what you did when you

were interested in books. And when I got to college and I was

a creative writing major, it gave me access to a lot of

different internships with various small presses that were

connected to Eastern Washington University and literary journals

like Willow Springs. And I learned through that that I was

more interested in the publishing side as opposed to

the writing side of things. So when it came time for me to

decide what to do after college, I applied and ended up going to

Portland, state's Master's in writing and publishing program.

Haha. I went to,

yes, there was a lot of us out there. We're pretty

great. And that, it was my senior year of college where I

was responsible for designing the undergrad literary journal

that I figured out that design was really the main thing I was

interested in. I knew I was a good project manager, but I was

really interested in design. So those are kind of two paths I

looked into while at PSU, and really settled more on the

design side of things. Once I graduated, I had an inkling that

I would probably need to move to New York City at some point in

order to work full time in books, but I wasn't ready to

leave Portland yet, so I actually ended up getting a

marketing design job with an architecture firm in Portland,

and I worked there for a little over two years, and that was a

really great experience, because it was still print based design.

I was creating proposals and awards submissions. To help the

architecture firm bring in work. And so it was very complex

document layout, and we were creating books, and an entire

production process was happening in house. So from conception to

printing, yeah, to printing, to assembly, all of that was

happening in the office. And that was a really invaluable

couple of years in terms of helping me understand design.

You know, I was a junior member of the team, so I had much more

experienced designers and marketing people around me that

were really mentors, and I continued to freelance on the

side with small presses in Portland, and continued to try

and be an active literary citizen in that scene. And I

figured out after a couple of years that I really wanted to

take those skills and work full time in book publishing, having

a day job and then books as a hobby just didn't that wasn't

going to work forever. So I sold, I think, I think I

calculated out as 93% of my possessions sold away, donated.

Showed up to New York City with an Airbnb reservation and two

suitcases and and, and, like many people that move here, I

made it work. Got an apartment, took took a while to break into

book publishing, but I did do it. I my first job in New York

City was with Henry Holt, which is an imprint of Macmillan, and

I was in the managing editorial department. And if anyone is

thinking about coming to New York and pursuing that, managing

Ed is a really great place to start.

What defines managing Ed? Like keyword,

managing

Yes, so the managing editorial department sits right

at the intersection of production, acquisitions,

design, production, editorial and really kind of contracts,

the contracts department, and basically they are the ones who

determine the schedule for a book, the production of a book,

and and keep the train rolling. So like I was the person who

would show up at people's desks and just say, Hey, we're just

wondering where this copy is for the jacket, that kind of thing.

You're the project managers of the

process sounds almost like enforcer, a little

bit, very

much though. It's it's a particular personality that

excels in managing Ed and it was great. It was I got a bird's eye

view of the entire process. The only areas that I didn't really

get to see a whole lot of in that position was marketing,

sales and publicity. That was really very separate, but being

able to see how, oh, I left a department out you have, you

have design which does interiors and an art which does the covers

and jackets, two separate departments. So getting to see

how art interacted with acquisitions and and how just

all these departments need to be coordinated and you have to keep

so many people on the same schedule, was really helpful in

seeing how big corporate traditional publishing works,

and Henry Holt is a small imprint in comparison to others.

So it was a good it was a really good stepping stone for me to

see kind of big publishing in a small imprint, and then being

able to jump into what I really wanted to be doing, which was

cover design, but a much, much bigger publisher, Knopf, which

is a part of Penguin Random House, right? And and I actually

the timing was completely crazy, but I actually left Knopf right

as all of this started. My last day in the office was in mid

March when they were trying to get everyone switched over to

working from home, and I was already there, like getting

ready to be a full time independent book designer. So

it's very bizarre timing.

So this is an interesting period of time for

you in a different way than it is for a lot of other people, I

guess so you're already making a transition to going off on your

own sort of thing.

Yes, yeah. I think everybody's workflows are

changing dramatically. And I don't know if I was ahead of the

curve or not, but yeah, my my workflow is. Was already, like,

completely transforming,

right? I have a question that I don't think I

put on here, but like, what is I know very, very little about in

house cover design, like, for the people that I've worked

with, we were, you know, a imprint of Simon and Schuster,

but far away. And so you'd kind of just like, someone would make

the cover somewhere, and that was that. And sometimes it was

one of our contractors, and sometimes Simon and Schuster

took care of it. But like, how does it work? When they're

they're right there, and you can talk to them.

It's, it's a really cool it can be an extremely

collaborative process. That's, that's the goal, that's always

collaborative. But you get a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and

sometimes that's helpful and sometimes it isn't. The way I

saw it work. It's really in print specific. So I was

technically a part of the vintage anchor books department,

but the art department as a whole did all of the design for

cannot double day Pantheon Shokan vintage anchor Borzoi,

like a lot of imprints, but we were so we were all interacting

as as cover designers, but, but technically we were separate. So

for example, vintage and anchor, which is the paperbacks, that

was more you would so you as the designer, would work with your

art director, and you and the art director would figure out,

let's say three, three options, something like that. You show it

to the editor, kind of see what the editor is thinking, and then

you take it to a decision Committee, which is made up of

the editor at large, the vintage publisher and various other

heads of departments, and they give feedback. And sometimes

it's really fast, like I had covers that got approved in one

or two meetings. And other times it's just a constant. It can go

on for months and and that can be influenced by a lot of

things. Like you can all decide that you really like one cover,

and then it goes to sales conference, and Barnes and Noble

says they hate it. So it gets kicked back, and you start the

whole process over again. And so that that was kind of the

process for vintage and anchor for Knopf, it was, it was more

you had a lot of interaction with the editor, like, as a

designer, you were getting a lot of, like, direct, sometimes art

direction, sometimes just constructive comments, but much

more interaction with the editor and and, and you'd be working

with your art director in all of that as well. And so the

approval process varies dramatically between imprints.

So where does the author come into that

decision making process. It's just, it's so absurd,

yeah, so I'm not sure where the author came in

exactly, with Henry Holt, like I do. I think that they did have

quite a bit to say, like, if you're showing something to the

editor. The theory is that once the art department and the

editor are kind of settled on something that you can show an

option or two to the author and the and the author, as far as I

always witness both at hold and it cannot. They do get, say,

they get quite a bit of it. And yeah, and they definitely get to

be part, part of the process in both cases. Now, it also depends

on how big of an author you are, like that has a huge that can

have a huge influence on how much input you have. But no one,

no author, was ever told to go away. Like author was always,

always a part of the discussion, as was the agent.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see how that

would be a good advocate in that situation, and probably a voice

of someone who also understands marketing, yes, so in your

opinion, like, what makes a good cover?

Okay, so a little bit of a loaded

question. Oh, a big loaded question.

But to me, a successful, a success. A book

cover is doing a few things simultaneously. One of the major

functional parts of a book cover is that it needs to tell the

potential reader what kind of book they're looking at. In a

split second, they need to be able to look at it and know it's

fantasy, it's market fiction, it's self help. It's horror.

It's so, so successful. Cover is telling a reader that just right

away so they know what they're looking at. The next layer is

making sure that the cover is communicating what the author or

editor, the Create will call it the the wordsmiths. With the

wordsmiths, thing need to be, needs to be presented clearly,

like, what it what is a key thing from the book that needs

to be presented on the cover? Now that could be something very

literal, like a scene from the book can be an object. It can it

can be anything but, but it the cover does need to be showing

why that story is unique, why that book is unique within this

category and the next kind of the if you're thinking of it as

a cake, the typography is the filling and the frosting. It's

what's holding everything together and communicating, not

only title and author and dictating what has more

prominence to your eye, but also, is this an award winning

book? Has this author done other books that you might have heard

of, is there a really important blur that should be on the

front? So you've got those considerations, you know. And

then, you know, is the spine intriguing? Is this a book?

Eventually, all books are going to be shelved face in so it's

like, what's the spine doing? And then, you know, for the

back, you're talking about what blurbs Do you want to emphasize,

and you get into into the word smithing with what needs to be

on the back. But a successful cover is basically all of those

elements, the typography, the category and the uniqueness of

the story, all need to be held together, and it just needs to

look damn good. Yeah, bottom line, yeah, it just needs to

look good, and, and, and that. So to me, that's that's the

success, that's a successful cover that can do all those

things.

Well, what are the ways that that falls apart,

the whenever I see a weak cover, often, part of that

is that there were, it's clear that there were design decision,

design decisions made without a strong reason. There's kind of,

there's, there's a lack of purpose in some of the decision

making, and maybe that's the placement of a photograph, or

it's the placement of the type, but, but it's often, even if you

can't quite name it when you first look at it, there's

something visually dissonant or or just something that that

isn't working because there weren't good decisions made. And

it's often you can't quite put your finger on it right away,

but you just look at it and you're like, there's something

not correct about what I'm looking at, and it's clearly not

on purpose,

right? So it sounds like there's both a level

of detail that you have to pay attention to, but you can't lose

sight of the bigger like holistic picture, or, or, you

know, something's going to be out of place, even if, on its

own, it's going to look good. Yeah, yes. I think you talked a

little bit about who, who is steering the ship when it comes

to that. Sounds like it's a pretty collaborative process.

How would you say that it differs between, you know, the

larger publishing companies where you worked, versus the

small press, where you've worked, versus self publishing,

even

so big publishing. And when I talk about big

publishing, I do mean like the big corporate houses, one way or

another, you are on a factory floor with that you are in a

book factory, and things are moving quickly. And there is a

bit, there can be a bit of a template feeling like this is a

thriller. Make it look like these other three thrillers that

were on the best seller list for us. So there can be a bit of

creative stifling that can happen as it as a designer, that

has never happened to me when I'm working with small presses

or self publishing authors. I mean, there's really quite a bit

of creative freedom with them, particularly. Say I really like

working on poetry and and literary fiction. And with those

genres in particular, you can get weird if you want to,

and to follow that template,

not at all. And it can be really that can be really

fun. And then on the flip side of that with when I'm working

with authors and and small publishers, it can be a lot of

fun to take something like a self help book or a thriller or

something that has kind of a defined market presence, and get

weird with it, like make sure it still fits, but be able to bring

your own interpretation of that. And I always find that that

small presses and and self publishing authors are often

just like over the moon with that process. They just love

being a part of of that kind of creative process. Not to say

there aren't sometimes roadblocks and sometimes the

visions don't quite line up, but I rarely had bad interactions

with with self publishing authors and small presses.

That's great. Yeah, everybody's just excited

to make some art.

Exactly.

So we talked a little bit about traditional

authors and what what they do to affect their book covers. And so

can, can you tell us about how a self published author might go

looking for a good designer who you know is going to be

trustworthy, do a good job, but also look for them in a way that

doesn't make them seem suspicious. Suspicious, I don't

know. I feel like, as someone who does copywriting,

contracting, if there's a way someone approaches you as if

you're going to, like, cheat them, it's like, doesn't start

off the relationship on a good foot. So I feel like there's a

balance to strike.

So if you're starting from scratch, looking for a

designer, one of the one of the first things I would do is ask

your writing community and see if they have any suggestions,

because it's often, it's often word of mouth. It's often, like,

I know somebody who worked with this person, and those are often

the best ways to establish relationships, because

everyone's got some skin in the game, yes, and so, and that's

how I get a lot of clients. It's word of mouth and and doing like

podcasts and writing articles and this sort of thing. So let's

say you have a few names of some designers, and you're an author

looking that the next step is looking at their portfolios and

making sure that they're doing doing covers that fit with your

visual esthetic and and the sweet spot is finding a designer

who is particularly talented in the category that your book

falls into, and you like their stuff. That's that's really what

you're looking for when, when you get to the point where you

want to contact this person, and we'll just say it's a cold call.

Maybe you don't have any sort of intro from anybody else. I think

the main thing is just being polite. Getting emails saying

hello, I wrote a book. I found your portfolio this way, I would

really like, I would really like to talk. And it can be that

short, it can and, and the the next thing that a designer will

probably respond with is like, please tell me more about this.

And, and it starts. It starts a dialog. In order to just keep

things above board. I always recommend that everyone have a

contract, and if not, if not, like a full official contract,

both sides need to get everything in writing and get a

written agreement to it. So sometimes that just means email,

but that's unusual for me, I really only do that with people

I know or yeah, really it's only people I know or people that

have been recommended to me. Just for everybody's sake.

Contracts are good. It helps set up the design process. It gives

everybody a clear set of expectations, and again, it puts

a little bit of skin in the game.

How did you create your contract?

I Let's see, how did I create my contract? I think it

was right, right out of grad school. There was someone who

circulated, another designer had been doing this for a little

while, who circulated their. Version of a contract, and I

took that and elaborate it

on it. So another word of mouth situation,

yeah, another word of mouth because, I mean contracts,

even if you're a really talented writer, contracts and legal

language are their own thing. So, and there's so many

templates out there. There's a lot of resources out there for

both I would think, for both writers and designers to use,

and probably it makes more sense for the designer to be providing

the contract. But when I'm working with small presses or

publishing services firms, they will often have their own

contracts. Oh, that's another route that authors can go to. If

you know somebody or you've been working with a publishing

services firm, they can often recommend or will have designers

already contracting with with the firm and and, just to

clarify, a publishing services firm is a business that provides

services that anybody from a self publishing author all the

way up to a big five publisher can utilize. So it's editing,

it's design, it's ebook conversion, readers, responses,

it can be all kinds of stuff.

What are some of the most unexpected things

you've come across in your publishing career that you

didn't know about going into it from school maybe,

oh, that's a good question. I think initially it

was that interior layout and cover design are totally

separate departments like I never talked to anybody in

interiors once I was in the cover art department, which

always struck me as very strange, but it comes together.

I mean, either way, it all comes together. The other thing that I

found really shocking was that at least at very old school

imprints like Knopf, the cover designer, the jacket designer, I

should say, almost never does the whole cover themselves.

They'll get the front cover and spine approved. Like, once all

of that's approved, they'll hand it over to a junior designer and

and the junior designer will be the one who does the flaps and

the back and all of that, and that just that still boggles my

mind, and it was a huge part of my job. I worked with a lot of

the senior designers, including chip Kidd and Carol Carson, like

laying out and John Gall, like laying out their jackets once

they had approval. And it was amazing to get to work with them

in that way. But it was so weird to me, like, because a lot of

the time, especially if you're doing effects and something kind

of fancy that's going to affect the entire wrap around, they're

they're needing to be involved in it every step of the way

anyway. And it's like, Well, I'm really happy to do this for you,

but like, why am I?

Why aren't you just doing it? Yeah, just do the

whole thing. That's one more piece.

I think it's because they had, like, a lot, like, a

lot of jackets that they had to be designing. So it made sense

to a certain degree, but that was so the opposite of what I

came from with, with small presses, where I'm production

and the designer, like, all in

one, handing over a completely finished

product that they can just go print. Yes, exactly. I knew very

little about cover design. We had Jessica reed on here, and

she was a marketing designer, and I kind of asked her about

she's just like, you know, I have no idea. I don't know how

that works. That wasn't what I did.

So, yeah, I listened to that episode and I just laughed,

because it's completely understand what she was saying

at least, at least at Knopf, there was very much a nurtured

opaqueness to what we were doing, like we liked having a

bit of distance from the other departments which you I did not

work there long enough. I mean, I was there for years, but the

people who worked there for a long time have been there 2530,

years, wow. So I was not there long enough to really see why

the senior level people liked having that distance. But I'm

going to trust there was a really good reason for

that. It's so strange to me. It was

really weird too, because, like ad promo we do

interact with with the ad promo designers to a certain degree,

because they. They're, they're using our files and things, but

always so very short interactions. It was, it was

funny. I mean, yeah, just like,

hi, these are the files. That's it.

Yeah, much. And then, like, you know, with interiors,

we never talked to them at all. And I'm like, this is weird.

We're all designers. Like, why aren't we talking to one

another?

Are they afraid that creative conflicts

might emerge?

I mean, I just wanted to go get a beer with some co

workers I don't like interact with all the time, but that just

wasn't a thing.

Wow, sounds very clicky. It would

that's what I found a bit. I mean, when Bush came to

shove, everybody, like, held together, but like, yeah, the

departments were very separate. It was very odd. And I prefer

the small press and the self publishing processes because

it's very collaborative. It's everyone's involved, and as long

as everyone's letting everyone do what they're good at, it's a

really it's a really great process. It's really

stimulating, like creatively stimulating, as

long as there's mutual respect for

everybody's abilities and opinions and stuff like that.

Exactly. So, what advice would you give to someone who really

wants to be a book designer, whether that be cover or

interior whatever? So not an easy path, I'm guessing,

not an easy not an easy path if you want to work in New

York, one like looping back to an earlier question. One of the

other very surprising things I found about New York is that it

can be sort of shockingly provincial when when it comes to

where you went to school, and where, where you're it's your

pedigree. There's like, a pedigree kind of thing going on

sometimes. And just, just to give an idea of my background,

it's like, I'm I'm a Southwest and West Coast girl, like, grew

up in Albuquerque, went to school in the Pacific Northwest,

and I'm very much used to kind of the mobility and particular

type of open mindedness that you find in the West, like in

like, the glorifying of people who didn't

even finish college. I would see that. I see that kind of, like

Bay Area attitude, where it's like, maybe you have a more

creative outlook if you didn't go to college.

So yes, it's just a flexibility with, like, where

you're coming from, whether that means geographically, mentally,

creatively, there's just, there's room for everybody in it

seems that that's my, my perception of it in a very

general kind of way, as opposed to what I have found on the East

Coast, which is everybody went to college when they were 18.

They went to Brown, Yale, Harvard, whatever, and they're

done at 22 and then their assistants, and

what is that like?

It was really hard for me at first, like, to kind of

get my head wrapped around that, because I haven't been in

college, like, not counting grad school, but I haven't been an

undergrad in 10 years, and to end up having discussions with

hiring managers about where I went to school and like why I

don't have a graphic design degree from whatever Art School

was very strange. So I moved to New York when I was 27 and, like

I said, had a master's degree already had, like, a decent

amount of work experience, considering I was a 20 something

and and they really didn't know what to do with that, like a lot

of hiring managers just didn't, didn't really know what to do

with someone who wasn't like a fresh faced like Ivy League

college grad. And that, at first I thought, well, maybe that's

just me, because I'm applying to these assistant positions, and I

probably am in a very different position than a lot of these

other people who are applying but, but in the five years that

I've been in New York, that has held up, it's, it's, there's a

tribalism to it, like, where did you go to school? Like, and, and

specifically with book design, they're looking for you to have

a graph like a BFA, you. Or an undergrad degree of some kind in

graphic design, or it is really hard to break into cover design.

It's really hard. I finally did it for you. My position wasn't

technically a cover designer, like, yeah, I was in the cover

art department. I was given the opportunity to do original

jacket design and cover design, but my position was decidedly

not design oriented. It was production oriented, which means

putting those mechs together, putting mechanicals together of

the approved front covers and spines, and building it all out

and solving like production problems on the design side, so

converting Quark files to InDesign that sort of stuff.

Wow, yeah,

I'm sorry.

No, it was, it was a learning it was a really good

learning experience, like I learned just as much about how a

book is printed and and the complexity of like paper choice

and ink choice finishes. I learned a huge amount in that

position, but I was decidedly not a designer. That was not in

my title, it was not in my job description, it was totally at

the discretion of the art directors whether or not I could

design that was not my full time like responsibility in my day

job. It doesn't it really didn't seem to matter that I had an

extensive portfolio from working with small presses and self

publishing authors that just for some reason, confused them more

than convinced them of anything. So that that is one serious

struggle of New York City that I found so for someone trying to

break into it, and you don't have a graphic design degree, I

don't know how realistic it is to try and break into cover art.

It might. One piece of advice I gave a student is that either

look at Interior Design, which is a little more flexible they

seem I didn't. I never worked in that department, so I can't say

for sure, but they seem a little more flexible with that and the

and the other thing is, is looking at jobs like I had that

are embedded within cover art, and you are a part of the cover

art department, but you're doing something else, your main job

function is maybe image research or studio management or

something like that, and then you might be able to hone your

skills and get to know your manager well enough that there's

a possibility down the road that you can start doing original

designs. But it's tough. It's really it's it's hard to

overstate how difficult it is in New York and and particularly in

a creative industry like book publishing that so many people

want to be a part of.

So now you are full time cover design for small

press and self published authors. Are you doing just

cover design? Are you doing, like, full book design? What?

What you doing?

Full book design and marketing material design? So I

really like doing the whole package. I love doing both

covers and interiors, but I'm open to either and, and then,

like sales kit design, so one sheets, bookmarks, any other

kind of collateral, I do that too. And, and my, my clients run

the run the gamut. It's It's Big Five down to self publishing

authors,

great, well, so we'll make sure to put your

website up there. So if people need some some book design, have

our have our stable of recommendations at hybrid pay

scout. Do you have anything else that you want to plug or do you

have anything else you want to talk about or both?

No, let's see. I mean, I want to give a shout out to

independent bookstores. They are the lifeblood of the industry,

and they're struggling right now. So if you're out there and

you have the ability to buy your books from your local

independent, like, please do that if you need to buy online,

which a lot of people do, still check in with your local indie.

They've probably got some sort of web presence where you can

buy books or look into bookshop.org.

Yes, we are. We are curating a. Yeah, all of

the people that we've interviewed, all of their books

on. So if there, if you, I know, actually, you have your own

bookshop.org, store, right?

I do. I have, I keep a list of all the books I've

worked on on there, in case people want to hop into

that. Yeah? So, Olivia Croom design.com,

yes, all right. And are you on social media for

Yes, I'm on I'm on Twitter and Instagram. On

Twitter, it's just at Olivia Croom, and then on Instagram, I

am reddish dot ampersand,

all right, was that one of your original email

addresses from back in the day.

It wasn't I was late to the Instagram phenomena, and I

just picked something out because I had just gotten an

ampersand tattoo. So it's like, yeah, yeah.

It's a cool symbol. All right, Olivia, thank

you so much. This has been great. Yeah, thank you. This was

great. And you can find us on Twitter, at hybrid pub Scout, on

Instagram, at hybrid pubscout pod. You can find our

bookshop.org, store on our website, hybridpubscout.com

please sign up for our newsletter, and if you are a

part of our community and have any successes in authoring,

editing, designing, anything to do with books, email me,

emily@hybridpubscout.com and we'll try to include you in our

newsletters and updates. Thanks for listening and thanks for

giving a rip about books. You.