Step into a story of grief, love, and incredible faith! You'll meet a woman who's faced unimaginable loss and come through it with an inspiring spirit

We're sitting down with Ann Prime for a talk about life’s tough moments, the ones that can shatter you but also define you. This is all about true pain, unwavering love, and recovery that’s only possible when you lean on something—or someone—bigger than yourself. It’s an emotional journey that might just shift your perspective on grief and the healing that can unfold with a touch of divine guidance.

Here's a summary of what is covered in this episode:

• Emphasizing the importance of living in the now, Ann shares personal insights on embracing each moment fully and the profound impact this approach has had on their life journey.
• Ann recounts lessons learned from walking with Jesus, particularly the value of being fully present, highlighted by transformative experiences starting in Alabama.
• Drawing an analogy with a seed's growth underground, the episode explores the necessity of personal development during life's darkest periods, acknowledging that challenging times often foster the most significant growth.
• The conversation touches on enduring grief, with Ann sharing her journey through profound loss and emphasizing that even in deep sorrow, God’s comforting presence is a beacon of hope.
• The episode encapsulates themes of being mindful, God's guidance, growth through adversity, and light amidst darkness, providing solace and encouragement for those grappling with grief.

MEET ANN

Ann Prime, an Alabama native and dedicated educator, met her late husband Mike in Pakistan before settling in the Southeastern U.S. The loss of Mike in 2020 marked a period of profound grief for Ann, during which she has been learning to trust God in her new season of life. Now residing in South Carolina and working with a commercial landscaping company, she's embracing new beginnings with resilience and faith.

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And now, without further ado, Let's meet your host and our

very special guest for today.

Hello and welcome to What's the Story.

My name is Sadaf Beynon and beside me is the lovely Anne Prime, who you,

dear listener, are going to have the privilege of getting to know today.

Welcome to What's the Story, Anne.

It's great to have you.

How are you today?

Thank you, Sadaf.

It's great to be here and I'm, I'm doing I'm doing great.

Thank you.

Um, so Anna and I know each other from years ago, all the way back in Pakistan.

I believe, um, and you said it was, I was in grade 10 at the

time when you first went out to

Pakistan?

I think so.

Yeah.

So, um, yeah, I want to know, I want to know what, what, um, took you to Pakistan.

I want to know how you became a Christian, um, cause I don't know

much about your, your story of your, of your Christian faith.

So tell

us.

Uh, well, I was, uh, I was born in Alabama in the USA and, um, I was.

Born into a Christian family, um, I can remember, I mean, some of my

earliest memories were going to church with my grandparents and my parents.

And, um, but honestly, it wasn't until I was 17 that I was working at a summer

camp and I really had an experience of, um, of understanding the grace of

Christ in a way I'd never seen it before.

And seeing it lived out in other people's lives, seeing, um, that

faith in Christ was a personal thing.

Um, I just had never, I had always believed in God.

I can remember even as a child, um, just conversations with God and, um, always

knowing He was near and cared about me.

But it wasn't until I I feel like, I guess this is the way of saying it, that

I met Jesus face to face that summer.

And, um, that was what I see really as, um, kind of stepping out in

faith as a follower of Christ, even though I'd always been a believer.

Making that personal decision to follow him.

Yeah.

And this was a Christian camp.

Um, I was introduced to it through my, the church I was at.

I was in a, a reformed Presbyterian church in Alabama and we had a

conference center in North Carolina, which I had worked at for a couple of

summers, but this particular summer I worked at a camp there called Camp Joy,

which was a camp for people with, um, physical and intellectual disabilities.

Great.

That's great.

So then, um, what, so that, you were 17.

And?

When you came to know the Lord as your personal saviour, um,

so what happened after that?

Oh, well, after that, that summer, actually, I made a

bold, uh, promise to Christ.

I said, I'll go home to my little small town in my high school

and I'm going to be a witness.

I'm going to, um,

I'm going to share my faith.

And, uh, and so I went back home from that amazing summer and, uh, immediately was

given opportunities to do that and was, um, pretty nervous and scared about it.

But at the same time, there was this boldness that new faith can, can bring.

And, um, I remember I spent a weekend with a friend, um, a girl who was about

to go away for, For school, to a boarding school, and um, she and I spent the

weekend at the lake with her parents.

They had a home there.

We were out on the river one day, or the lake, and um, we witnessed

a tragic, tragic drowning.

And I can remember that night back at her house, just sitting together and

crying and asking all the questions.

You know, and uh, and even though both of us had grown up in church, um, we had

never had a conversation about, uh, God, about life after death, about Jesus, and

uh, but that night we did, and um, and I was able to share with her, and she...

prayed and asked God to to save her and To give her new life in Christ and

and that was an incredible experience for me I never really shared my

faith in Jesus with someone in that way and never Seen never never been

a part of that kind of experience.

It was powerful and the next The next week when school started,

I actually had an opportunity, another friend who had been elected.

We had the Student Government Association at our school and a friend of mine

had been elected as the chaplain for the coming year, our senior year.

And she, uh, also moved away.

And so that role of chaplain in our Student Government

Association had opened up.

And a teacher encouraged me to.

Well, I did, but no one else ran for the, it was just me, but they still

had me get up and give a speech.

And I just knew that that speech was my opportunity to share

what God had done in my life.

And, uh, and I did in fear and trepidation, but I, it's amazing

sort of to look back on that because before that I was a small school,

uh, kindergarten through 12th grade, only about maybe 400 people total.

Um, but after that experience of being vulnerable and sharing my story, um, that

opened up opportunities to know people in my school that I'd never known before,

um, to have conversations, to, to feel not only like seen and known, but to

see and know other people in a new way.

Um, it was incredible.

It was in my senior year.

Um, just a complete turnaround from everything I had lived before.

It was amazing.

That is, that is really inspiring.

And I love how you made such a bold promise to the Lord and how

he honored that and gave you those spaces to be able to, to share about

him and your story with others.

And the fact that you could lead your friend to Jesus, it's incredible.

It was quite incredible.

Thank you for sharing that.

So then, um, what happened after high school?

Where did you

go?

After high school, I went to a school in South Carolina, a small, um, university

that was part, or college that was part of the Reformed Presbyterian

Church, Erskine College, in a small town called Due West, South Carolina.

And I spent My four years there, um, majored in Christian education and minored

in special education and, um, Yeah, it was, uh, again, another experience of

just, uh, God's grace in so many ways.

Relationships built there, the education I, I got there, um,

and the way that experience led to the next thing, you know, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, so that was, I'm guessing, two year program, four year

program?

It was a four year program.

Four year

college.

Yeah.

Great.

And then, um, so where did the Lord take you after that?

So during my time at Erskine, I had the opportunity to go on

several, uh, short term mission trips, um, to Mexico too, actually.

And through that made relationships with, um, people at an organization

called World Witness, which again was part of the Reformed.

Presbyterian Church.

Um, and when I graduated from Erskine, my first year, I worked at a small

home for girls, um, as a teacher.

And, um, while I was working there, I was approached by, um, the director of World

Witness, who I had gone on these trips with, about an opportunity in Pakistan.

And Um, they were wanting to start a program there for students

who had learning differences.

And um, and I guess you'd say recruited me.

They knew that I had an interest in special education and offered to train

me to do this educational therapy.

Um.

And I just, I knew that my desire, I didn't know if this was what, you

know, God was leading me to, so to speak, but I knew my deep desire, um,

was to, um, step out of my comfort and do something, um, different.

I, I, I, foreign missions or being, um.

You know, in, in a different environment really appealed to

me and, um, so I, I said yes.

And I don't know that my reasons for saying yes were, um.

Noble in any way.

They were more like adventure driven.

I'm pretty sure at the time.

Um, but I said, yes, and that led to, uh, being trained to do this

educational therapy with the National Institute for Learning Disabilities.

It was called at the time.

Um, and to do that, I went to Virginia for a year and interned at a school there.

Um, and I can remember a very, um, um, this was kind of a pivotal moment

of me seeing, noticing that this was God moving me out into a new place.

I was a part of a.

A group at the church I was going to, a group of singles who, we went on a

retreat and one of the questions that weekend to the group was, if God asks

you to do anything, one thing that you would say, what is the one thing that if

God asked you to do it, you would say no?

And he went around the whole circle and most everyone's answer was something like.

Leave home, like move away from where my family lives, leave Virginia,

leave something of that kind.

And when it got to me, I, I just, at that time in my life, the one thing that if God

wanted me to do it, I would probably, I'd have a hard time saying yes to, was moving

back to the small town I grew up in.

Um.

So it was like my, what I was feeling was completely opposite to

all these other young people my age.

And so I thought, well, maybe, maybe there is something too, you know, maybe

this isn't just me seeking adventure.

I think maybe this is really God, you know, leading me in this

direction.

That desire in your heart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And actually what you said, um, at the, towards the beginning when you were

talking about the camp you were at, and you made this bold promise that

you wanted to go and witness this.

Um, you know, to others about the Lord, and he's like listening to you

talk, I can see, I can see that, um, the Lord opening up doors for you.

My question, I wanted to ask, um, so when you were in university, When

you were doing your, um, Christian education, um, course and, um,

the learn, sorry, I, I missed, uh, what was the other half of that?

It was the Christian Ed

and...

Christian education and then, uh, special education.

Special

education, that's right.

And so, in that time, I know you went to do some missions

trips in Mexico, but did you...

Were you still thinking about what your future was going to look like,

whether it was going to be more about witnessing or was it just,

yeah, tell me a bit more about that.

So, during my time at Erskine, every summer I went back to that same camp.

I worked at that camp for probably eight years every summer.

At some point in my time at Erskine, I realized I really wanted to study

education and to work with people who have different learning styles and needs.

But Erskine did not have a major in that at the time.

They were not offering that degree.

Um, and I didn't want to or feel the need to move on to another school,

so that's why I chose to minor in it, but it just, it was always an

interest of mine, certainly, um, just.

Thank you.

Um, so you were then, um, you went to Virginia.

Yes.

To get more training.

Yes.

And then, um, did you, did you end up at, did you go to

Pakistan right away after that?

Or was there still, was there more, um, was there more that the Lord took you

through before he planted you in Pakistan?

Um, there was.

It was pretty much directly from there when I, um, I

guess it was the summer of 92.

I did some orientation for working, um, you know, in, in a

boarding school, in a, in K school.

And then I did the training for, um, working with the discovery program.

And then I had the internship in Virginia and that was kind of while I

was waiting for my visa to come through.

And I finished teaching in Virginia.

Uh, early summer of 93 and went to Pakistan in August,

I think it was August of 93.

93.

Yeah.

So that was, yeah, that was, uh, yeah, it was wonderful.

And it changed your life, didn't it?

It did in

so many ways.

Yeah.

All right.

Tell us about that.

Well, I went, uh, yes.

I went to Pakistan in the summer of 93.

Uh, to be, to work, help, help, not to start it, but to help start the discovery

program, which had already been started there and, um, got to be a part of that.

I had, um, I believe I had six students and my first year that that's what I did.

I spent time.

You know, building relationships with the other staff and my students and teaching

and getting involved on campus and it was an amazing community to be a part of.

I've never experienced anything like it and never have since.

Just incredible, made up of people from all over the world and just

a beautiful, beautiful picture of what the Bride of Christ is.

My second year there, I was asked to be, uh, also be a boarding

parent for seventh grade girls.

And so I moved into one of the dorms and had my seven seventh grade girls

and, um, and was teaching still.

And it was, uh, an amazing year.

Um, in between all that, the summer, I guess it was my second.

You're there.

Um, I met Mike Prime.

Uh, Mike had, his parents worked at the school and he had

actually graduated from MCS.

Years later, when he would tell this story that we met at MCS, he always

liked to leave out the part that, um, that he graduated before I even came.

He liked to make it sound a little bit scandalous, but, uh, but he had

graduated and gone back to Canada and, uh, he was out visiting his parents.

Parents and working in Pakistan for the summer and to come up to the school

and we, we met one day, um, I was leaving the campus with, uh, another

teacher and she had had a flat tire.

So we were about to get all the paraphernalia out to change her

tire and Mike and a friend of his came walking up and, uh.

I said, oh, we'll change that attire for you, and I remember he said, walked over

to me and said, I'm Mike Prime by the way.

And that was, uh,

that was it.

That's, that's lovely.

I do remember, I remember you being around, and I remember Mike being

around, having come back as well.

I didn't know all of this was going on, until it happened.

Yeah, um, but yeah, I want to echo what you said about MCS.

It really was a very special place.

And, um, I haven't experienced anything like it ever since as well.

I would have to agree with you.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, you and Mike then.

Yes, we, uh, we met that summer, uh, so summer of 94, uh, we

spent very little time together.

We would run into each other around campus and just chat for a minute, and, uh,

somewhere toward the end of the summer, he was back on campus, and he asked me,

have you ever been to visit in a village?

And, uh, and I, I had been when I had visited, um, friends in the

South, I'd gone to some villages, but I'd never actually been to one

in Murray, like to anyone's home.

Um, and Mike had relationships with a lot of the men who worked on campus,

the maintenance workers and, uh, guys, families, he would go to their

homes and, um, so he invited me to go.

So, and so one evening, Mike and, uh, two other friends of his and, and I went.

We hiked down the mountain onto the mountainside to go to someone's home and

we had tea which then turned into dinner and it was an amazing, yes as it does, a

wonderful evening and it actually ended up being the first day of the monsoon.

And so the rain started and we, we knew we needed to leave and we ended up hiking

back up the mountain in the pouring rain.

And it was, you know, it was an amazing experience.

So when we got back to campus, we actually drove into Murray and, um,

went to where his parents were staying at the time and visited with them

and then ended up visiting with each other till like three in the morning,

just getting to know each other.

And then the next day he went back to Canada.

And back to school.

Yeah.

The very next day.

So that was nice.

Um, you know, and I, I didn't know, I thought he was a great person, but I

didn't know if I'd ever see him again.

Um, a month later, however, I had a postcard in the mail from Mike and

On it, he had put his return address, which you don't usually put those on

postcards, you know, but he had it.

And so, uh, so I wrote him back and, um, and we ended up writing

letters, you know, and that was, email was a new thing at the time.

Uh, but we didn't personally have email, you know, the school had

it and probably his school had it, but, uh, so we wrote letters.

And every two weeks I'd get a letter and send one back.

We did that for eight months and then he came back to Pakistan

and that was the summer of 95.

And it was coming up to the end of my two year commitment at MCS, um,

and that summer we got engaged.

So he came back for you, that, that second time?

No, no, he had, he came back with two friends.

Okay.

They, uh, they came to work in the South with some missionaries there.

He had come back to do that, um, every, I think every year after he graduated

from MCS, he came back and did that.

So no, not just for me.

Although, if I may, I'll tell, I'll tell this little story of our engagement,

it's funny and I don't think many people know it, but um, when he came back, poor

college student that he was, he wanted to bring me some kind of little gift,

but he didn't really have money and he didn't know what it would bring, and

he was visiting with his brother before the trip and they went hiking, and as

they're hiking along the trail, he um, He kicked something on the trail and looked

down and, and there was something shiny.

So he'd been down and pick it up and it was this little

dainty, pretty little gold ring.

And he thought, well, I'll just give her that.

Well, I don't know that he really thought about it that way at the time, but, um,

he cleaned it up and he brought it out.

And, um, so.

In the evenings, we would visit in the staff lounge.

The girls would go to bed and I'd go down to the staff

lounge and we'd sit and visit.

And as often happened in Pakistan, the power went out one night while

we're sitting there visiting.

We're in the pitch dark.

We had no candles or anything.

And, um, the night before we had talked about You know, our understanding

of dating and what do we see that as at our ages or whatever.

Um, you know, to me...

At the time, I thought, well, you date in order to know if this is

a person that you should marry.

Um, it's a time of discerning and, um, and we came to that agreement and

decided, okay, well, we're dating.

And so this is the next night he's just given me the little ring and said, you

know, I wanted to give you this gift and told me the story and we thought it

was funny and, and the power goes out.

And he said, um, So, you know what we talked about last night, yes?

What do you think?

I'm sorry?

What do you think?

And I knew what he meant, but I, sitting there in the dark, I'm like, no, he's

going to need to really ask this question.

More effort, please.

Yeah.

And so I

said, I don't, what do you mean?

And he finally said, will you marry me?

And I, I was shocked that it came so soon.

Yeah.

But I also knew.

You know, and uh, so I said yes, and he reached over, of course we're in

the dark, he reached over and took my hand, and he took it and put it on

his mouth so I could feel how big he was smiling because we couldn't see

each other, and I just, uh, we always.

Yeah, that was a fun, fun story that we, um, really enjoy.

So, yeah.

Thank you for sharing

that.

It is a fun story.

Yeah.

Um, so you got engaged and, um, and then how long were you engaged

and were you in Pakistan for that engagement time or did you move

back?

What happened?

For, yep, for some of it, um, we, my time was up in August and I believe,

um, you know, we did announce our engagement while we were there.

So we got to enjoy that time with friends and family there.

One of the other, um, staff members at the school made my wedding

dress, which was incredible.

Um, we were thrown a, a big, uh, Mindy party by friends there.

It was beautiful.

I bet.

Um, and then went back, I went back to, uh, Alabama where my family

was and Mike went back to British Columbia where he was in school.

And it was five months from when we came back to when we got married in December.

of 95.

Amazing.

And you got married

in Alabama.

In Alabama.

Yeah.

In Alabama and friends from Pakistan and from Canada and of course from

the States were there for our wedding and it was, it was an incredible.

Beautiful, wonderful time.

So, and I know

that, um, you've, you've had, um, I know you, you had wonderful years

with Mike, but tell us more about your marriage and about Mike falling ill.

Uh, so...

We married in 95 and we spent our first year in British Columbia and for various

reasons we chose to move to the States and we ended up in Columbia, South Carolina.

Um, Mike was going to finish school at a Bible college here, um,

Columbia International University.

And he also worked full time at the university, so that took some years,

but we really settled into life here.

And our daughter Eden was born, um, in Columbia.

And um, Um, we lived here, I say here because I'm back here, but, um, we lived

here for about nine years before moving to Alabama, which, um, you know, when I

made that, um, I left Alabama at 18, um, my hometown to go to college and it was

18 years later that we moved back there.

Um, and it was the right time.

It was the right time, uh, for lots of reasons.

We lived there for 12 years, and it's interesting, sort of, one of the big

lessons that I have learned over time, or am learning, I should say, I don't

know that I'll ever completely learn it, but I am learning, is that, um, our, our

journey, uh, of following Jesus, is a lot less about those big adventures that

I know I was seeking when I was young.

And it's more about right now, this moment today, and how I'm living it.

And I think our years in Alabama were the beginning of that,

that lesson and that school.

Yeah.

So,

if you don't mind, why, tell me, I want to uncover a bit more about why, why you

say that, what happened that made you?

I feel like you learned

that lesson or started learning it.

Um, I, I believe, so the choice, when we started to build a family,

when our daughter was born, we made the decision, um, that I, I wanted

to stay at home and, um, that, you know, that meant lifestyle choices,

um, that were limiting in some ways.

Hmm.

Uh, financially, really the, the only way, Hmm.

Um, things that we had to choose to give up.

Um, but they were certainly worth it.

We never felt that they weren't.

But that honestly was the beginning of learning that lesson of, um,

you know, it's being, um, totally present in the moment for the

people that you're in life with.

is more important than anything else.

Um, there are things that we can aspire to, there are things that can draw our

attention and our mind away from the present moment, and we can put, and I

say we, but I know that this is true of me, that I can put my energies into

things I might want in the future, or things I might, uh, regret from the past.

But all of that pulls me away from being truly, really present

right here in the future.

And...

You know, this past three years has been a big lesson in that, but as I approach

the anniversary of Mike's death, um, I've been doing a lot of looking back

over the years and lessons learned.

And that's one of the biggest ones I see.

It's not just been in these last three years I've been learning that,

it's been, it's been a long time.

Maybe because I'm having a hard time learning it.

Um, so what happened with Mike?

So the summer of 2019, um, our daughter was starting her, um, She was getting

ready to start her senior year of college and she was in school down in

Florida and had decided to take the summer and go to school in the UK.

So she was there for the summer and her, her hope was to do some traveling in

Europe after her time in school was done and she wanted to do that with friends.

That didn't work out.

So she invited her dad to come and um, I was going to be working

at a camp in Alabama that summer.

That same week that she wanted to travel, so she and Mike

got to do this trip together.

And, um, so the week he was gone, I was gone to camp and we both had

very, very different experiences, but we came home with a very similar.

Sort of, um, realization, I guess you'd say, um, I had spent this week in a camp

called Hope Heals Camp in North Alabama.

And if you don't know about the organization called Hope

Heals, um, please look it up.

It's an amazing organization, um, do a beautiful family camp for

people living with disability.

Um, and my takeaway from that whole week of camp was a need to recalibrate, a need

to get back to the essentials in life.

So when Mike came home and we talked about our experiences,

that's where we were both coming to.

The next day we went back to our normal jobs and our normal life, um,

but with a completely new perspective.

And the same day he got a call.

from his boss, offering him a promotion that would move us to Georgia.

And this was not something we were expecting.

It was a real surprise, but when we talked about it and prayed about it,

we realized that that was part of what we were being kind of prepared for.

And it was something we needed to say yes to.

And so we did.

And within a month, we were moving to Georgia, about, I think, a five

hour drive from where we were.

My family was in Alabama, um, and it was a process.

Mike moved first and it took me about a month to pack things

up and finish my job and move.

Um, but one experience that happened in the process of them moving, looking

back on it, we know had a pretty big impact on the next month, the next year.

Um, Mike was putting a new roof on our house in Alabama before we moved.

He and some friends were working on it on Labor Day, on uh, what was that, the

Labor Day of 2019, and he had a fall.

He fell off the roof, and he walked away that day, nothing broken, no, nothing

major, but had a lot of pain, and the next couple of weeks, um, had a lot of

pain and was going to a chiropractor and dealing with it, um, and he got better.

Over the months, um, but it never completely went away, that pain, um, and

so fast forward then, um, to November, um, my mother who had not been real well for

a long time, she had a chronic pulmonary disease, um, she passed away in late

November of 2019, not long after our move.

And, um, we, I got to be with my family and with her in those days.

But coming back from that, um, into, you know, the Christmas season and

all of that, having just moved to a new place was a challenging time,

but it was also a time that really brought us together as a family.

Um, Mike and I, and Eden coming home to be with us on that Christmas was good.

Um, so the spring of 2020, as everyone will remember, brought COVID.

Um, it was, uh.

March of 2020, when we got the first kind of, in South Georgia anyway,

the first kind of, um, inkling that something big was going on.

Um, and we got a call, I think it was November, I mean, uh, March 11th, that

Eden, our daughter was, her school was going to close down for a couple of weeks.

They were sending everybody, um, either home or at least they had to stay in

their dorms and do school virtually.

She decided to come home.

She, um.

So she came for two weeks, that turned into the rest of the semester.

Um, and about two weeks after she came home, Mike started having some

unusual symptoms that at first he thought were related to the back pain.

Because from the fall, he had always had some kind of nagging pain in sort of his

mid back and even in his diaphragm area.

Um, but in these weeks, he started having other symptoms that just,

we realized that this is, this is not just pain from your back.

Fall and started trying to get him in to see a doctor, which proved to be very

difficult at the beginning of COVID.

Doctors weren't really wanting to take on new patients.

Offices weren't just open for walk ins, you know.

So it took us several weeks to even get an appointment.

But once we did, things moved very quickly.

And um, in April he was diagnosed with a third stage esophageal cancer, which was,

um, It was a shock, um, to say the least, but his father had had the same cancer

several years before and they found it early and they had done a surgery that

was very challenging and difficult and hard to recover from, but was successful.

And so we had hope.

We thought that, uh, well, dad's been through this and we'll,

you know, we'll be all right.

Um, but that was, you know, mid April.

Uh, by June we knew that Mike's had, uh, advanced to fourth stage,

um, and the surgery wasn't even an option when it was at third stage.

He started treatments, chemo and radiation, and he started, uh, uh, the

long process and journey of illness.

Wow,

and it's, wow, so much in such a short span of time, losing your mom

to, well, even the move away from home and then losing your mom and

grieving and being part of that, and then with everything that then

happened with Mike, I'm so sorry.

Thank you, Sai.

It was, um, you know, it was a, an unexpected thing, um, looking back, I

think as I said, earlier, you know, coming up on The anniversary of his passing,

um, I've spent a lot of time looking back through things I wrote during that

time, through particularly the Psalms.

During those months, Mike and I read through the Psalms together, um,

every day we were reading and...

So in the margins of my Bible, uh, there are things that I

wrote during those, those days.

Um, reflections on the Psalms that we were reading.

And one thing that stands out as I look at it was the incredible

courage that he faced all of that.

Um, from the day that he found out his, uh, his, yeah, courage,

um, at stepping into that.

Was, um, inspiring, I guess, um, his courage, his faith, the, the first days

that, the first day we talked to the oncologist, uh, he said, you know, Doc,

and I'm watching this, I'm seeing this, you know, 45 year old man who's healthy,

looks healthy, uh, strong, fit, healthy.

Being told that he has cancer, being told, you know, what, this is what we recommend

for your treatment and all this, and just seeing what he's about to have to face.

And he said to the doctor, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm okay either way.

I want to live.

I want to be here.

I want to, you know, be with my family.

I want to do life.

And he wasn't crying like I am.

Um, but I know that if I die, I'm okay.

Because I know I'm gonna, I'm gonna be with Jesus.

I'm okay with that.

I'm not just okay with that.

That's good.

And to hear him say that because it was true, and it was what he was really

feeling and experiencing was, um.

Wow.

What a great testament to the Lord's goodness to him and faithfulness to

him for him to have such a strong relationship to be able to say that.

Looking back, the wonderful thing is that, it's one thing to say that when you're

sitting in that chair and you feel good, and you know, you feel courage and you

feel boldness and you think, I'm going to hold on to this and believe it, but

it's quite another to still be able to say that when you're in pain or you're

laying in a hospital bed, as he had to do a couple of times through those

months, but to still be able to say that.

In those times, that was what was really

a testament to God's goodness.

That's incredible.

What was, what was grief like for you in those very early days?

And I guess in some sense, you were probably starting the process of

grieving while he was still with

you.

Yeah, I think that, uh, I think that that's true.

And I don't think that at the time I thought of it as grief.

But yeah, I know that was part of the process.

Early on, after Mike was diagnosed, we talked about it, and we wanted to be

very careful, if we could, to be mindful of how we approach the whole thing.

Because We certainly wanted healing, and we asked God for healing.

And we, we sought conventional treatments, and we pursued alternative things to help.

Um, and we prayed for healing, and we asked others to pray.

But we also didn't want to be in denial.

And we wanted to welcome, actually welcome death, if that was what the Lord asked.

It was the next part of his journey, our journey.

And...

And that was all part of that not fearing it.

If we believe what we say we believe, that after this life is

true real life, eternally with God, then why should we fear this?

The threshold, the having to die, is a very hard thing.

It's something that, that we both did fear in a way, and

looking back on those moments.

It was really, really hard, but knowing and believing that it's a threshold to

something that is unimaginably wonderful.

We just didn't want to be in a place where either of us would resent that, or,

I don't know how to put it really, but

we just didn't want to deny the possibility.

And so, Because of that, I think, yes, there was a lot of grieving

going on in those six months.

But there was also a lot of celebrating.

And a lot of trying to be very present, as I said.

That was something that I believe that balance between seeking and desiring

healing, but yet welcoming whatever God had, helped us to actually, simply, Live

each day, what was given to us that day, be totally present with each other, um,

and honestly it's going to be strange to say this, and I know that I can't really

explain it except that it's a mystery, but there was something about those six

months, some of the most, um, Beautiful and unified days of our lives together.

And I think it all comes back to that being fully present.

What a gift from the Lord.

Yes.

You said when you came back from your week in camp and Mike returned from

his time with Eden in Europe, you both came away with the same message or

felt like you needed to recalibrate.

And it sounds that the Lord, it sounds like the Lord gave you that

time and that sense that this is what you needed and it set you up.

For what was coming unbeknownst to you and, um, from the way you're

talking, the way you, um, talk about being present and, um, and

living each, each day in the moment.

And you talked about reflecting on scripture together with Mike and just

in everything you've talked about, it felt like you are, you held.

Each other you held Mike in an open hand before the Lord and whether he takes

him or whether he lets him stay You were okay with that and that's hard.

That's a really hard place to be but how so

powerful Yeah, it's it's not a place I ever stayed Consistently, but that yeah

Wow, thank you for sharing that.

So what does Um, I don't think we ever stop grieving.

I don't think, I don't think that's a thing.

So how are you, how are you navigating that in, at the moment?

Like where are you, where are you, where are you up to in that grieving journey?

You know, it's interesting.

That's a good question.

Um, and I, I think in a way that's what I've been thinking about this

past, you know, um, this October.

It's, it's, um.

three years.

And so, and this time I've been kind of looking back and taking,

taking account, I guess, um, of that journey of grief and, uh, where I am.

And, um, I, I don't, I don't know for me.

So I've, I know there are a lot of different ways people look at grief, but

I feel like for me, it's been almost, and I've probably heard this somewhere else.

These, this is not a new concept, but for me, it's almost been

like a spiral of, of this.

You know, the different stages of grief, but at a, at a different level each time.

Yeah.

And so going through the, those, um, those different stages, um, and different

levels of understanding, but also with a different, uh, different reliance on

God, a different, perspective on life, uh, from a different vantage point,

looking back at, um, Mike's death.

Um, for me now, so this year, uh, well, it's been a progression, um,

in the first months for me, I spent a lot of time, um, in Psalm 23,

and just kind of walking through what that, that Psalm is and means.

And I spent...

A lot of hours walking, I mean, literally walking, um, taking walks in private

places where I could, um, pray and just talk to God out loud, um, and with my dogs

looking at me like I was crazy because I'm talking to no one, but, um, but I was

talking to God and those moments, just that physical exercise, being out, um,

in nature and, Feeling my feet hit the ground and breathing deep and sometimes

crying and sometimes ending up laying on the ground and just letting those emotions

of grief that needed to be expressed come out was, I stayed there for a long time.

Um, and I remember in those days, Psalm 23, um, where it says, um, Even

though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.

I, I don't know, was given, I, I saw this image in my mind.

I've always heard that and thought of it as a person who is like the shadow

of the possibility of their own death is, is around them and they're afraid.

But at this time I saw, no, no, no, that shadow that's cast.

over me right now is Mike's death.

And a shadow happens when something is between you and the light source.

And God is that light source.

And there are days that I feel like he's nowhere near.

But this image that I saw was like, I could, it was like I was stepping

outside the picture and I could see in.

Here I am walking in this valley and it's Mike's death that's casting

the shadow, but there is the light.

God is still there.

I have nothing to fear.

This hurts.

It's hard.

I don't really want to be here, but God is still here, there.

It's him that's casting the shadow and I'll see the light again.

And that, um, that knowledge, that image really, like pulled

me through those months in a way.

Another thing sort of that spoke to both Mike and I, when he was sick

and then to me after, was music.

Um, Mike played guitar and we sang a lot in our home.

Um, lots of worship songs.

In the months that he was sick, he didn't have the energy or the voice to sing much.

And, so we listened to a lot.

And, uh, a song we heard early on in his treatment time and we listened to.

Daily, was a song, Always Good, by Andrew Peterson, as uh, an anthem,

a daily reminder to us that even though our circumstances are not

good, God is good, God is good.

And Mike, when he would lead worship at our church, he always had this um, a thing

that he would say, that he heard somewhere and loved, so he would say it, um, God

is good, and the congregation says back.

All the time, and you say, all the time, God is good, and so hearing

that song, we immediately both thought of that little refrain that

you love to say, and it's true.

It is.

It sure

is.

I love hearing how, um, your relationship with the Lord is just

from, from when you became a Christian.

Or decided to follow Him, um, at the age of 17.

You just can see the Lord's hand in your life and your, um, faith seems

to have grown stronger and stronger by every experience that the Lord gave you.

And it's wonderful to see that even in something as tragic as having to lose

Mike, that you've been able to hold on to the hope and the goodness of

Jesus.

I think, uh...

You know, Sadhguru, I think it's more Him holding on to me.

There's two things in what you say, remind me of two other spots I was

reading through in my journals.

One is the fact that most growth in my life, and I look back

at, has happened in the dark.

Absolutely, yeah.

And I think that's probably just a true thing naturally.

Most, you know, when you think of a seed, so much of the...

Necessary growth happens when it's under the ground.

Think of a child.

So much very important growth happens in the dark of the womb.

And I know that's been true in my own life.

And, um, and, yeah, one of the biggest lessons or reminders through

this time has been how God holds me.

Us.

Um, Isaiah, let's see, what is it?

Isaiah, had it open earlier today.

In Isaiah 41, verse 10 and verse 14, I just love when they say,

Fear not, for I am with you.

Be not dismayed, for I am your God.

I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you

with my righteous right hand.

And then, it's actually 13, For I, the Lord your God, hold your right hand.

It is I who say to you, fear not.

I am the one who helps you.

Um, and I have written in my journal, like my, um, margin of my Bible, yeah.

Um, um, April 23rd of 22, I wrote this.

Um, and this is, again, I was given this image as I read those verses.

So, the one says, Um, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

So I picture God or Jesus holding around me like we would do if we

were helping someone up from a fall.

Reach around them with our right hand and pull up.

Yeah.

And so holding me that way in his arm.

But then in 13 it says.

I hold your right hand, which means that he's reaching across with his

left hand to hold my right hand.

And so the image is like being completely encircled in the arms of God.

And that's how, that's how I picture what you said earlier.

You said that you've, I think you said you've held on to,

um, He's all known to me.

And elsewhere in the Psalms, again and again, I kept seeing this, um, where David

says, the psalmist says, I cling to you.

That there's this active part that we play in this holding that God

is, but that activity is nothing but just clinging, and that's what,

that's what these days have been.

What do you think this whole

experience

and this process has taught you about yourself?

I know you've learned a lot about God, that's very evident in how you've

been speaking, but what has it taught you about yourself, do you think?

That I have deep, deep need.

To know that, that I won't be, uh, abandoned.

I think that there is definitely something in, you know, losing the

person that you've, you know, pledged to love till death do you part.

And, you know, that love doesn't die.

To feel that, I guess there's something I'm learning about my own personality in

a way that, um, I have this underlying fear that I think, um, and so to have

that happen, you know, this person.

That was so close to me in my life, not there anymore.

Um, yeah, I don't know exactly how to verbalize now what I'm trying to say,

but seeing that that is an underlying fear that I probably have had all my

life, but, and yet knowing that...

My Savior will never, Christ will never abandon.

He, you know, Jesus is the outpouring of God's mercy and love and grace into into

life and into this humanity that we live in and even though I, in the core of who I

am, have this fear of being alone, I know That I'm never alone, that He is always

with me, and I have nothing to fear.

So I guess in a way, sort of learning that, um, learning that

about myself is very humbling,

yet I think humility is our only starting place with God.

If we aren't starting, if I'm not starting from that place, then I have

this misguided idea that my efforts...

Are what keep me close to God, and it's just not true.

Yeah.

It's Him.

It's God.

That is

so true.

There is so much wisdom in those words, Anne.

Yeah.

You might have already, um, answered this in so many ways, but, um, if...

If you had one message, or one key learning, what would you

say that is?

That's a good question.

One.

Gosh, I think in, uh, you know, I'm still, still learning so much.

I think maybe that, what I just said, might be it.

Um.

If I was to rephrase it maybe, if you were to go back to, um, was it the summer,

was it the summer when, um, you were at camp and Mike was away and you came

back, um, before it all kind of kicked off in some sense with your mom and then,

well, Mike and your mom, Mike's fall, um, What would you tell yourself, like

if you were to go back, if you could prepare yourself in some way, what would

that, what would you tell yourself?

That's a good, that's a good question, good way to put it.

Um, well going back to that word that, uh, was so dominant in my thoughts,

uh, in those days, recalibrate.

Um, I think I would tell myself to, to take that very seriously.

And to me, over time, in looking at that word, what I came to is

that that really means going back to what is essential in life.

What is essential in my faith is what's essential in life.

And to recalibrate always to me now means getting back to the heart of God.

Coming back to His presence and actually recognizing that I'm

never out of God's presence.

He, God is always present in me, with me, in you, with you.

He is, I'm the one who sometimes steps away.

And that recalibrating is that always coming back to God.

And I suppose we could talk about concrete ways that we can do that in our daily

lives, but for me personally, that is, um, you know, images are very powerful for me.

Um, that's just, I think, in pictures, I think, and um, for me.

Imagining on those walks that I told you I took, you know, imagining that

Jesus is actually right there walking with me, um, is powerful for me.

Knowing that at any moment or time I don't have to go to a special place

to pray and I don't have to do any particular ritual to talk to God.

Um, God is always with me, and for me it is in the person of Jesus that

I feel just the closest communion with Him, um, knowing that, knowing

that I need to recalibrate myself.

On a moment by moment basis and remind myself.

I was thinking of it this way the other day, you know when you're in

a conversation with someone and you want to, and you're really talking

and connecting, it's usually when you're looking in one another's eyes.

I realize that there are times.

When God is drawing me near, and gazing at me, and I'm not looking,

I'm looking at other things.

My attention is on anything else but, but his gaze is just drawing me in.

And when I stop, and actually really look full on his face.

It changes everything.

And I can do that in any and every moment of the day.

Thank you, Anne.

That's so powerful.

I feel like listening to you, I'm able to walk away with so many

golden nuggets, like recalibrate.

You're so right.

And even you said something at the beginning too about being present in

the moment and like how often we, um, You know, pine for something that was or

might be in the future instead of, like you say, being in the moment right where

the Lord has placed us in the present.

It's so important.

It's so important.

And um, the other thing, like you were talking about the Lord's

goodness, and from that looking at, or just Yeah, thinking about

how the Lord has been so good.

It's hard not to be grateful for those, the things that he's given us

and blessed us with and that heart of.

of, um, thankfulness to the Lord.

Um, it does, it takes you to a different place.

It takes you outside of your, yourself and allows the Lord to, to minister to you.

Yes.

Um, and I can, I can see that I can hear that in your words and, um,

I'm just so thankful that you, that you, uh, shared your story with us.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome, Sara.

Thank you for inviting me too.

It's, it's,

it's our pleasure to have you, it really is.

Um, and before, before you go, I'm really conscious of, of the time.

Um, is there any way that if, if one of our listeners wanted to reach out to you

and maybe, um, carry on the conversation with you in some sense, if they're in

the same boat, um, or have just, I've gleaned a lot from what you've said

and would like to talk to you more.

Is there a way that they could reach you?

Absolutely.

Um, I guess an email would probably be a good way.

Yeah.

So I, I have that.

I can put that in the show notes along with, um, Hope Heals.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'll, I'll add that.

Well, that's, that's it from us today.

Thank you again, Anne, for, for being here.

It just.

Yeah, it's just been a wonderful conversation to hear what

you've, what's on your heart.

It's just, the Lord has been so good.

Thank you, Sadaf, and it's been so good to be with you again after so many years.

Yeah,

absolutely.

So fun to reconnect, right?

So that's it from me, and Ann, and, uh, we'll see you soon in the next episode.

Bye for now.

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