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How Can I Get My Audience Fully Onboard with My Idea?: Interview with Tamsen Webster
Episode 33 • 7th March 2023 • Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking • Kirsten Rourke
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In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with Tamsen Webster, author of Find Your Red Thread, about the subtle difference between looking for solutions and looking to solve a problem and why Tamsen suggests reading outside of your area of expertise in order to develop ongoing mastery. 

Key take-aways:

  • There are more ways to tell a story beyond the hero’s journey
  • You have to solve the problem potential clients think they have before you can solve the problem that you know they have
  • Read Find Your Red Thread all the way through first, and then loop back to go through step by step

Rourke Training’s webpage: https://www.rourketraining.com/

Ongoing Masgtery: Presenting & Speaking page: https://ongoing-mastery.captivate.fm/

RSS feed: https://feeds.captivate.fm/ongoing-mastery/

Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/do2vc480etx

For the video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/LCZZ3Quya6o

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirstenrourke/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirstenmalenarourke

Twitter: https://twitter.com/kirstenrourke?lang=en

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Need a speaking coach or looking for speaking courses? Here's our affiliate link for Kirsten's speaking coach, Tim David: https://bit.ly/3eCUFPy


Transcripts

Kirsten:

Hello everyone.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, the podcast and the interview.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

And today we have Tamsen Webster, who is an author of my new

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

absolute favorite book ever.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Hi Timsen, how are

Tamsen:

you?

Tamsen:

Hi, I love that.

Tamsen:

Please introduce me all the time.

Kirsten:

So please tell for one, tell everybody about you and what it is that

Kirsten:

you do before we get into the book itself.

Kirsten:

Sure.

Kirsten:

I

Tamsen:

would say that the best description of what I do, kind

Tamsen:

of the boring description, is that I'm a message strategist.

Tamsen:

I help people.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, figure out how to engage people in their ideas and galvanize to action.

Tamsen:

But I would say that what I really do, English to English translation,

Tamsen:

helping people translate from their expert version of their idea into

Tamsen:

language and concepts that audiences can understand and connect to.

Tamsen:

So what

Kirsten:

inspired you to write the book, the Red Thread book?

Kirsten:

So please tell, uh, briefly the story.

Kirsten:

What

Tamsen:

about this book?

Tamsen:

Yeah, so the idea for it first arose probably about six years ago now, and

Tamsen:

that's when I was serving as the executive producer of TEDx Cambridge, which is

Tamsen:

the oldest independently organized.

Tamsen:

Ted Talk event in the world.

Tamsen:

Awesome.

Tamsen:

And I had an interesting challenge, which was how do you take these

Tamsen:

primarily authors, excuse me, like authors, academic speakers, scholars,

Tamsen:

and they've got this incredible body of work, and how do we get all of that?

Tamsen:

into three to 18 minutes for a general population audience, to respond to and

Tamsen:

say, oh, a, I understand B, I agree that this is important, and C, it's important

Tamsen:

enough that I wanna talk to other people and I have the language to do it.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, so, mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, that sounded like a fun challenge for me to solve, and so I went looking for

Tamsen:

it, and where I landed, In story, but not story the way that a lot of people

Tamsen:

think about it, which is, you know, telling a story once upon a time story,

Tamsen:

Hey, once upon a time I did X, Y, or Z.

Tamsen:

That's important.

Tamsen:

They're really useful.

Tamsen:

But this is actually about story structure because it's actually the story

Tamsen:

structure that our bodies and brains respond to when we get new information.

Tamsen:

And so my idea was how could we organize an idea?

Tamsen:

Into the structure of a story so that it felt like a story to the audience.

Tamsen:

It had the impact and understandability to an audience, and yet had all of that and

Tamsen:

still preserved the integrity of the idea.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

. And that set me on the path to figure out what are those elements that are in

Tamsen:

every story, not just the hero's journey.

Tamsen:

I can get on a whole big soapbox about that, but what are the elements that are

Tamsen:

in every story and thus in every idea?

Tamsen:

And then how do we.

Tamsen:

Apply that to our ideas, and that's what the book is all.

Kirsten:

So is your next book gonna be called More Than the Hero's Journey?

Kirsten:

. Tamsen: I'm just saying . So when

Kirsten:

about the, yeah, it was very funny.

Kirsten:

My original working title for my next book was Hijacked by Heroes.

Kirsten:

That will probably be a chapter in this new book.

Kirsten:

This new book.

Kirsten:

We're still debating on the title, but my current favorite is Give

Kirsten:

them Something they Can't Un Unhear: How to Build Ideas for Buy In.

Kirsten:

That's kind of my, oh, I like it.

Kirsten:

Yeah, that's a nice, so it's either that or Galvanize . Gotta

Kirsten:

build ideas for my end.

Kirsten:

Haven't really figured out which one it is, but that's, that's the big idea.

Kirsten:

So the book that I'm talking about is Find Your Red Thread:

Kirsten:

Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible.

Kirsten:

Now, I first heard about this through my speaking coach Tim

Kirsten:

David, who uses your stuff.

Kirsten:

Oh, I love Tim David.

Kirsten:

All of his work.

Kirsten:

And he keeps talking about, did you do your red thread, did you

Kirsten:

do your red thread with everybody?

Kirsten:

And I finally was.

Kirsten:

, I gotta go buy this book and I bought it a month ago, and if I

Kirsten:

had bought it in January, 2022, my business would be different.

Kirsten:

Oh my

Tamsen:

goodness.

Tamsen:

I would be I, well, by the way, just a quick aside, Tim David has written

Tamsen:

what is still one of my favorite, favorite books, so Tim's book,

Tamsen:

magic Words, it just continues to be a book I refer to all the time.

Tamsen:

So, yay.

Tamsen:

I'm glad the world is small in.

Kirsten:

Yes it is.

Kirsten:

And also I live in Massachusetts so it even smaller because you're talking

Kirsten:

about Cambridge and I'm like, yes.

Kirsten:

Oh that's

Tamsen:

right.

Tamsen:

I go fast because he does.

Tamsen:

And I do.

Tamsen:

And we're hey,

Kirsten:

yes, we're all, we're all in the same, the same pocket.

Kirsten:

So that's why I wanted to have you come on here is because I've been so, I was free.

Kirsten:

I'm gonna go into me for a few minutes and then people were on the podcast who

Kirsten:

are listening who are old time listeners.

Kirsten:

Just bear with me because I know you've heard this story.

Kirsten:

So I was a freelancer for 22 years and then I had been.

Kirsten:

Hearing, you know, you should really not just form your own business,

Kirsten:

but be your own boss forever.

Kirsten:

And I was always like, oh no, that's okay.

Kirsten:

That's okay.

Kirsten:

I, I will be happily to do it through vendors.

Kirsten:

And then October, 2021, I was like, oh no, I really do need to be doing this.

Kirsten:

And made the decision and kind of wrapped up what I was doing and

Kirsten:

made the leap at, in January, 2022.

Kirsten:

Went completely fully autonomous.

Kirsten:

Now the thing is, is that the make your big, big ideas irresistible,

Kirsten:

and the red thread piece that I wish I had known is I have been trying

Kirsten:

to speak in the voice of my ideal client for over a year, and I really

Kirsten:

couldn't do it until I read your book.

Kirsten:

Until I worked through your exercises.

Kirsten:

Oh my goodness.

Kirsten:

And then I was like, oh, oh, well delighted.

Kirsten:

Okay.

Kirsten:

So that's why, that's why I wanted to bring you on and I wanted to give

Kirsten:

you this feedback live on camera because it's like, well, thank you.

Kirsten:

I just really, oh my God, everybody go buy this damn book.

Kirsten:

Seriously, it's wonderful.

Kirsten:

So it's, thank you.

Kirsten:

It's an exercise and also theory, and there's some brain science in there.

Kirsten:

Oh my gosh.

Tamsen:

It's all, yeah, it is.

Tamsen:

Well, one of the benefits of having, having built it originally with, and

Tamsen:

for these academics and scientists and scholars and philosophers and

Tamsen:

engineers, was that it needed to be backed up with not just like, here's

Tamsen:

this great idea, but it needed to really be backed up with like, how does the

Tamsen:

brain work and how does motivation work, and how do people make decisions

Tamsen:

and how do we process information?

Tamsen:

And how does the brain process information?

Tamsen:

What gets in the way of that and what doesn't?

Tamsen:

So, yeah, I mean, I don't, I mean, it's, thank you for noticing that, but

Tamsen:

yes, everything in the book is backed up six ways to Sunday with quality

Tamsen:

science, and that's, that's really important to me because for a lot of

Tamsen:

the folks that I work with who are many times primary researchers themselves,

Tamsen:

it has to be at that level in order for them to, you know, adopt it.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, because you, When they first meet me, they're like, well, who are you?

Tamsen:

I mean, these days it's a little different, but you know, six years ago

Tamsen:

they were like, we don't know who you are.

Tamsen:

I'm like, I know who I am.

Tamsen:

I'm working in Harvard Business School or whatever.

Tamsen:

But they're like, I don't know who you are.

Tamsen:

So like, how do you establish that credibility quickly?

Tamsen:

And the, and the science was important

Kirsten:

for that.

Kirsten:

So for people who aren't in the United States or people who aren't in

Kirsten:

New England, please understand that Cambridge is its own special place.

Kirsten:

It is the People's Republic of Cambridge.

Kirsten:

It is its own special culture in many ways.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

It's its own country.

Kirsten:

Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Kirsten:

It has its own laws.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

And yet much they don't.

Kirsten:

No.

Kirsten:

You can't give an opinion without being willing to have peer reviewed

Kirsten:

sources, including saying anything full waitress at a restaurant.

Kirsten:

Like you have to have your data that's at your fingertips.

Tamsen:

Yeah, that's right.

Tamsen:

Which tracks exactly.

Tamsen:

And it's gotta current data too.

Tamsen:

You can't just be like, oh, well 17 years ago there was a study because

Tamsen:

there's gonna be something newer.

Tamsen:

And so there really is that expectation of kind of you need to.

Tamsen:

What people are thinking about right now.

Tamsen:

But I'm delighted that you said that you had that experience with

Tamsen:

the book because that was part of the design of it was mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

like, I didn't want other people to have to become an expert in this thing too.

Tamsen:

Right?

Tamsen:

Like I love working with people who are experts in their own area and.

Tamsen:

The last thing anybody in that situation wants to do is like figure out, oh my

Tamsen:

gosh, I have to go learn this too in order for my idea to be successful.

Tamsen:

Yeah.

Tamsen:

And I, it was one of the reasons why I also wanted to, to find something that

Tamsen:

was complimentary to, but simpler then the hero's journey because, you know, I

Tamsen:

spent 25 years in Brandon message strategy in with four organizations large and.

Tamsen:

I've yet to meet anybody in an organization that feels like they

Tamsen:

have enough time, enough money, or entirely the right people around

Tamsen:

them in order to get everything done.

Tamsen:

Yep.

Tamsen:

So I would find that, you know, in my early days of experimenting with

Tamsen:

story, that you start to talk to people about rising actions and following

Tamsen:

actions and all of the stuff, all the steps that the hero's journey

Tamsen:

and they just start to glaze over.

Tamsen:

Or what I would also notice, since I spent so much time in my career with

Tamsen:

nonprofits, they're like, but there.

Tamsen:

A villain, , when you're an art museum.

Tamsen:

Like there's not, you know, other than time and climate.

Tamsen:

And so that was part of what was driving me, which was how could I frame this

Tamsen:

in such a way where the questions were and the exercises were things

Tamsen:

that you didn't have to be an expert.

Tamsen:

in order to be able to answer, you only needed to be an expert in your own idea.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, which I believe everybody already is, and doesn't necessarily mean the questions

Tamsen:

are necessarily easy to answer as you have found out, but they're at least, nope.

Tamsen:

Straightforward.

Tamsen:

And they're a little bit, yes.

Tamsen:

They're able to, you know, they're designed so that you

Tamsen:

can say, well, you know, Hey, I.

Tamsen:

I know I have this idea, so I know the answer's in my head

Tamsen:

somewhere, so let's dig it out.

Tamsen:

Yeah.

Tamsen:

The

Kirsten:

thing, the thing I found most valuable was, it's so funny because

Kirsten:

you can always do better with other people than you do with yourself, right?

Kirsten:

Like I Oh, absolutely.

Kirsten:

I help subject matter experts.

Kirsten:

Absolutely.

Kirsten:

Cobblers

Tamsen:

children.

Tamsen:

. Exactly.

Tamsen:

It's like, it's like, I don't have shoes, but you Therapist shoes.

Tamsen:

The therapists have therapists as, yes, Absolut.

Kirsten:

So I've been doing technical training, instructional

Kirsten:

design, and speaking forever.

Kirsten:

Like that's my thing, right?

Kirsten:

So I now work with subject matter experts on getting out of their own

Kirsten:

way to be able to be really engaging and do the thing they need to do.

Kirsten:

And so I was like, nice.

Kirsten:

I fell into exactly the SME paradox that I coach people on, which is I was

Kirsten:

like, well, I know what I'm teaching.

Kirsten:

So the.

Kirsten:

I know how to say it.

Kirsten:

And everything I put out there was in Kirsten speak and not in the voice

Kirsten:

of the person I'm trying to reach.

Kirsten:

And the thing I loved most was you have a point in the book at

Kirsten:

which you're like, all right, we're gonna get there in stages.

Kirsten:

This part is not gonna be the final piece, and you're not gonna think it's awesome.

Kirsten:

You're gonna think it's kind of a little, a little odd, but it's a stepping stone

Kirsten:

to get to here and you need to do this.

Kirsten:

And I was going through, going, okay, all right.

Kirsten:

And I had exactly the reactions you were describing.

Kirsten:

I'm like, but this isn't exactly right and I want it to be perfect.

Kirsten:

And then I started going through it and went, oh, This

Kirsten:

is how I get out of my own way.

Kirsten:

This is how I stop using.

Kirsten:

Yes, exactly.

Kirsten:

Like I keep using ongoing mastery, which is the name of the podcast

Kirsten:

to describe what I do, but Right.

Kirsten:

That's not what people don't what that means.

Kirsten:

Exactly.

Kirsten:

And that's, that's not it.

Kirsten:

So the, what is the result?

Kirsten:

What is the goal?

Kirsten:

What is the effect of what you do?

Kirsten:

That's what you do.

Kirsten:

And what's their perspective on it and their words for it.

Kirsten:

That's what you and I was like, once I was able to flip.

Kirsten:

It became so much easier, , it became

Tamsen:

so much easier.

Tamsen:

I, when someone refer to this, I wish I could remember who it was

Tamsen:

because I do like to give attribution.

Tamsen:

So I wanna be clear that this is not my framing on this.

Tamsen:

I just sadly can't remember whose framing it was.

Tamsen:

Where was something like that?

Tamsen:

You, the, the framing is to understand that you've just offered people.

Tamsen:

The solution, you haven't actually described the problem, right?

Tamsen:

But people aren't looking for solutions.

Tamsen:

They're looking to solve a problem and that that's a subtle difference,

Tamsen:

but it's really important and it's one of the reasons why you really can't.

Tamsen:

, I feel fully get an audience on board with your ideas unless you've

Tamsen:

got it anchored in something that they know they want and need right

Tamsen:

now and that they know they want and need is critically important for that

Tamsen:

Yes.

Tamsen:

In in that.

Tamsen:

It's just because a lot of times we have this temptation go, well,

Tamsen:

I know what your real problem is and your real problem is x.

Tamsen:

They're not looking for that.

Tamsen:

They're not searching for that.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, you tell them that off the top and they're like, well that may be so,

Tamsen:

but I've got this other problem that I really know that I have right now

Tamsen:

and we've gotta figure that piece out.

Tamsen:

So it very much is this idea that we've got to solve the problem they

Tamsen:

think they have before you can solve the problem that you know they have.

Tamsen:

And figuring out how to stage them to that is really critical

Tamsen:

for getting that buy-in that.

Kirsten:

Yeah, and that's the part that I never even, because I was

Kirsten:

unwilling to address the problem they think they have, because I

Kirsten:

know that's not the real problem.

Kirsten:

So I was always like, no, no, no, . That's not it.

Kirsten:

And people can't hear you and help with the dog.

Kirsten:

Oh, . Hold into the microphone.

Kirsten:

I have a muting microphone, people who are not on video.

Kirsten:

So there's a little tap that I'm doing for people on video.

Kirsten:

and what I do is I tend to double tap it, which means I mute and then unmute

Kirsten:

and then yell at the dog or my kid right into the microphone, which is

Kirsten:

what I've done twice in the last two

Tamsen:

weeks.

Tamsen:

Oh, no worries.

Tamsen:

No worries.

Tamsen:

I have both dogs.

Tamsen:

Apologize.

Tamsen:

I hope so.

Tamsen:

I understand

Tamsen:

, Kirsten: but I'm gonna mute.

Tamsen:

There we go.

Tamsen:

Pull in the teenager out, out of the cave.

Tamsen:

There we go, . Okay.

Tamsen:

So, uh, if, if you're doing this on audio, if you're coming up to us through the

Tamsen:

audio, go to YouTube, look at the video, you'll crack up , just saying a lot.

Tamsen:

Everything will suddenly make sense.

Tamsen:

Everything will make sense.

Tamsen:

So this is life on the air.

Tamsen:

This

Tamsen:

is how it

Kirsten:

is.

Kirsten:

That's right.

Kirsten:

That's right.

Kirsten:

So what is your, when people are going through your book, do you recommend that

Kirsten:

they, that they try to do it kind of all in one flow, that they do it in pieces?

Kirsten:

What is the, how do you recommend they use your.

Tamsen:

So I have found now that people, it's been out there in the world for a

Tamsen:

couple years that the reader recommended way of proceeding through the book is

Tamsen:

to read it all the way through once without doing any of the exercises.

Tamsen:

Okay.

Tamsen:

So just to see, just to get a sense of how it all comes together

Tamsen:

and how all the pieces play into each other, and then go back and

Tamsen:

then kind of go section by section throughout, because I think reading.

Tamsen:

all at once helps you understand how, Ooh, that's, that's on me now.

Tamsen:

I should have silenced that.

Tamsen:

Reading it all at once helps you, I think, understand how very much each

Tamsen:

of the pieces builds on the one before.

Tamsen:

How, for instance, you know there's a section of the red thread that I call

Tamsen:

the problem or the two part problem.

Tamsen:

You really can't identify that one really clearly unless you've.

Tamsen:

Previous piece figured out, which is the goal.

Tamsen:

And similarly, you can't really figure out what the best truth statement

Tamsen:

is, which is what follows that two-part problem, unless you've really

Tamsen:

got the two-part problem nailed.

Tamsen:

And so I think understanding how those pieces come together makes

Tamsen:

doing the exercises more efficient.

Tamsen:

And I, and I'm a, I'm a big fan of efficiency, so that's how I'd recommend

Tamsen:

the people read it all the way through.

Tamsen:

First, get a sense of how it all comes together, and then go back

Tamsen:

through and work it all, you know,

Kirsten:

step by.

Kirsten:

Ed, I will add to that, that I recommend that what everybody does is what is

Kirsten:

advised in the book, which is that you keep a notebook and you keep all the steps

Kirsten:

because you're gonna go back to your first stuff and you're gonna look at kind of

Kirsten:

where you were in the beginning, and some of that's gonna be pulled into the end.

Kirsten:

So keep your notes.

Kirsten:

Don't, like, don't do it on a, a legal pad and then toss stuff like

Kirsten:

get a notebook, keep it, go all the way through and keep all of your

Kirsten:

history and all of your brainstorms because you'll go back to them.

Kirsten:

You will definitely

Tamsen:

go back.

Tamsen:

That's a great point, Kirsten.

Tamsen:

Yeah.

Tamsen:

A lot of the stuff that you end up not using early

Tamsen:

oftentimes shows up again late.

Tamsen:

And that's great actually.

Tamsen:

I, and having that kind of fullness of capturing what it is like right in

Tamsen:

the beginning as you're trying to tell somebody all the things that your.

Tamsen:

Can do.

Tamsen:

It's good to capture all of that.

Tamsen:

Your audience can't process it.

Tamsen:

right up all up front, you know, so the, that's why you wanna

Tamsen:

not give it to them right away.

Tamsen:

But that stuff can be so valuable.

Tamsen:

Once they're kind of agreeing in principle with your idea, then

Tamsen:

all of those extra things that it can do, those classic benefits and

Tamsen:

extra features and those kinds of things end up then validating their.

Tamsen:

Initial feeling about, oh my gosh, this, this is a good answer to my question.

Tamsen:

And not only that, not only does it answer that question, it also accomplishes

Tamsen:

all these other things that I didn't think were possible with one thing.

Tamsen:

But if you start with all of that, a lot of times people's impression is

Tamsen:

they start to, it starts to feel like.

Tamsen:

Kind of the knife infomercial, right?

Tamsen:

Where it's like it slices.

Tamsen:

Mm-hmm.

Tamsen:

, it dices, it folds your laundry, and then you start to go and you're like,

Tamsen:

there's no way something can do all that.

Tamsen:

So if we can get to a point where somebody says, I have one big problem

Tamsen:

and this is one big answer to it, and once they feel like, oh, okay,

Tamsen:

you have solved the problem that not only that I knew that I have, but the

Tamsen:

one that I didn't knew know that I.

Tamsen:

isn't it interesting that they can say to themselves, oh my gosh.

Tamsen:

And as a result of now solving both those problems, I'm able to accomplish

Tamsen:

the slicing and the dicing and the doing the laundry, which they wouldn't Yes.

Tamsen:

Have been necessarily as open to at the

Kirsten:

beginning.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

What is it?

Kirsten:

It's a floor wax edge dessert topping.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

It's all the things.

Kirsten:

. Tamsen: Exactly.

Kirsten:

I mean, it's one of the things that I'm thinking about for my, for my new book

Kirsten:

is like, just by how you structure, and these are the, the two books are

Kirsten:

definitely cousins to each other.

Kirsten:

How you structure all of this if you do your job well, and this is true

Kirsten:

with finding a red thread as well, that the case that you make for your

Kirsten:

idea should also simultaneously.

Kirsten:

For that one big answer.

Kirsten:

Should also simultaneously make the case for all the other

Kirsten:

things that you think it can do.

Kirsten:

You just can't craft and deliver six messages simultaneously.

Kirsten:

Nobody's got that kind of attention, by the way, from your audience

Kirsten:

standpoint, and because you can't give it that level of attention, all six

Kirsten:

of those messages wouldn't be strong.

Kirsten:

So I'm of the opinion that you go all in on making one case and one

Kirsten:

message really, really strong.

Kirsten:

Again, if it's built well, it will make the case for all the other

Kirsten:

things that your idea can do.

Kirsten:

All the other benefits, it can have, all the other problems that

Kirsten:

it can solve.

Kirsten:

Yep, and it's just, like I said, it's super, super helpful.

Kirsten:

Now I am on your website, which is Tamsen Webster.com And I noticed

Kirsten:

that you also have speaking on here.

Kirsten:

So what do you have coming up?

Kirsten:

Do you have any events coming

Tamsen:

up?

Tamsen:

Well, the very next thing I have coming up is the, uh, National

Tamsen:

Speakers Association Winter Workshop Conference here in San Antonio.

Tamsen:

Well, not here in San I'm in Boston.

Tamsen:

It's in San Antonio actually this weekend.

Tamsen:

And talking about a, something that's related to what I do, but really a kind of

Tamsen:

off topic for most of my speaking because I'm talking to speakers about how to.

Tamsen:

Their keynote descriptions, how to describe their ideas for meeting

Tamsen:

organizers, potential clients, et cetera.

Tamsen:

And then typically, you know, then, then some other things are coming up that are

Tamsen:

a bit more, you know, kind of, that are more specialized and more along the lines.

Tamsen:

So I'm speaking at the Association of Fundraising Professionals,

Tamsen:

Boston Day here at the end of April, talking to them about, Yeah.

Tamsen:

How do you get people on board?

Tamsen:

How do you kind of galvanize people to action behind an idea?

Tamsen:

Yep.

Tamsen:

And yeah, there's some other really interesting things coming

Tamsen:

up over the course of the year.

Tamsen:

I'm, I'm looking forward to even have something in Milan at the

Tamsen:

end of the year, so that should be

Kirsten:

fun.

Kirsten:

Ooh, Milan, I like it.

Kirsten:

Yeah, I like it.

Kirsten:

Excellent.

Kirsten:

Yes.

Kirsten:

Alright, well thank you

Tamsen:

so much for coming on.

Tamsen:

I'm like, yes.

Tamsen:

Um, happy to speak in Milan.

Tamsen:

Yeah,

Kirsten:

I like that.

Kirsten:

It's like, and, and by the way, you know, if we could have a really

Kirsten:

decadent hotel and a lovely meal and all of that, that would also.

Kirsten:

Yeah, wouldn't that be nice?

Tamsen:

Yeah.

Tamsen:

Wouldn't that be lovely?

Tamsen:

Yeah, I'm, I'm excited to, I'm very excited to speak with fundraisers because

Tamsen:

as I mentioned earlier, I've spent, first 15 years of my career was in nonprofits.

Tamsen:

I, I spent three years doing fundraising communication strategy

Tamsen:

for Harvard Medical School.

Tamsen:

So I love fundraisers.

Tamsen:

They've got a tough job and I'd like to think that I've learned some things that

Tamsen:

could potentially make their job easier.

Tamsen:

So I'm really excited to, to get out there and, and to debut

Tamsen:

some of this new thinking for.

Tamsen:

So

Kirsten:

last question before we go.

Since this is Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, do you have any advice about

Since this is Ongoing Mastery:

ongoing mastery for our audience?

Tamsen:

You know, I do.

Tamsen:

I think one of the best things that you can do for ongoing mastery is to

Tamsen:

read outside of your area of expertise and spend as much time doing that.

Tamsen:

As possible, and that can take a lot of shape.

Tamsen:

So I, you know, I obv, you know, I obviously do read in my area of expertise

Tamsen:

a fair amount, and I share a lot of those links, is what I call swipe files.

Tamsen:

So you can find those on, on LinkedIn.

Tamsen:

But, you know, I, I read a lot of fiction.

Tamsen:

I read a lot of things that aren't about, you know, persuasion, influence, change,

Tamsen:

communication, those kinds of things.

Tamsen:

Because the more that you can understand about other people's worlds, the

Tamsen:

better you can relate what you do to.

Tamsen:

They know.

Tamsen:

And by the way, when it comes to ongoing mastery speaking, presenting,

Tamsen:

the more that you're gonna be able to find these like wonderful stories,

Tamsen:

analogies, metaphors that are just great for illustrating certain points.

Tamsen:

And because you're not kind of fishing where everybody else is for those, your

Tamsen:

talks, your illustrations, all of that just end up being a lot more interesting

Tamsen:

to people because they're like, oh my gosh, I've never heard that story.

Tamsen:

So that's, that's my biggest thing is read outside of your ex area of expertise.

Kirsten:

Fantastic.

Kirsten:

All right, and with that we're gonna wrap up.

Kirsten:

As a reminder, everybody, we have the Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking

Kirsten:

LinkedIn group, and please leave comments on YouTube and all the socials.

Kirsten:

We'll see you next time.

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