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31. Bored Ape Board Game, Clueless Crypto Punks, Metaverse Billions, Metaverse Standards, Oculus Moat, Web3 Mobile Phones
Episode 3127th June 2022 • META Business • Holodeck Media
00:00:00 00:37:53

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In this episode, we discuss Imagination Gaming launching a Bored Ape board game, Noah Davis leaving Christie's for Crypto Punks, Mark Zuckerberg envisioning big spending from Metaverse consumers and predicting a billion metaverse users, Microsoft and Meta creating The Metaverse Standards Forum, Solana Labs aiming to make Web3 mobile phones, and so much more!

Episode 31 Keywords: Imagination Gaming, Bored Ape board game, Noah Davis, Christie's, Crypto Punks, Mark Zuckerberg, Metaverse consumers, Microsoft, Meta, The Metaverse Standards Forum, Solana Labs, Web3, mobile phones

Transcripts

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Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The

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Metaverse and web three are bringing about the biggest

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revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the

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prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the juice Cohen. We will be bringing

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you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into

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what it all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

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From the boardroom to the metaverse. This is the meta

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business podcast. I am Paul the Prophet Dawalibi. I'm joined

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today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For those

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of you who are new here, welcome to the official podcast in the

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metaverse. What we do is we cover the most pressing,

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Metaverse, news and topics of the week. When we look at all of

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it through a business and C suite lens, we dissect we

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analyze the business implications of everything

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happening in this industry. For our regular listeners. Thank you

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guys for tuning in every week, thank you for leaving a five

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star rating and review. I read all of your reviews guys, I read

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every feedback you leave on the podcast. We really appreciate it

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when you show love when you subscribe when you leave a

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review. Or even better just share it with a colleague with a

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friend. If you love the content, if you love the podcast sharing

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it is the absolute best way of showing that love. Jeff, how you

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doing this week? I'm very good. We were recording on a special

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day today. Arguably the most special day of the year. My

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birth knows the most, you'd be a little bit biased.

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And by the way, I forgot to say last week congrats on 30

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episodes. This is episode 31. But like kind of a small

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milestone 30 episodes pretty big. I think for podcasts. 30

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episodes is big that the podcast is growing, we're getting a lot

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more listens. You just mentioned actually in the pre show that

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we're now getting requests for people to come on and be

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interviewed. So I'd be curious, you know, to the regular

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listeners, like let us know if you want us to have people on as

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guests and interview them. And then also who you'd want. We've

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had some some great people write to us and say they want to come

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on as guest. But it would be great to hear from our

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listeners, like other people you want us to try to get if we go

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down that path, we'd love to hear feedback.

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Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I mean, we've held off

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because, you know, we've had this format, and it's been

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working and people like it and it's, you know, been snappy and

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punchy. And it's a bit shorter than your usual podcasts maybe.

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But, you know, there's been, like you said, so much inbound

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interest, people in the web three world in the metaverse

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world in the crypto world in the NFT world you name it all sorts

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of asking to be on the show. And I think we're open to it right I

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think it's all going to depend on the kind of feedback we get

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from from you guys from the listeners and

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if you want to see it or hear it or not. So I will say an empty

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world I hear you're now a famous NFT subject if you will, I

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already was just to be clear, to be clear.

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We we mented the world's first esports NFT and so like if you

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want to be the the absolute if you want to be the collector of

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all collectors you know the creme de la creme of collectors.

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That's the NFT you want to having said that you know I I

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was supposed to be speaking at an ft NYC this week. I'm not

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there, obviously. But they minted like 10 NF T's for every

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speaker who's there. And I was surprised to see that people

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claimed my NF T's right? This is just my face, which arguably is

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maybe the best subject matter for an NF T but

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it was it was interesting to see. I will say though I still

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believe the one to own is the world's first esports NFT you

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can go on open sea you can check it out history it was history

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making no one had ever done this before in the esports world and

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that's the one you want to own if you're a real if you're a

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real collector

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for these days.

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I am not sure yeah, I've actually I feel I'm sorry like

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you put me on the spot they actually I'm not sure it's some

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reasonable amount given the historic nature Well,

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price on it so I can't

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the price is too low right regardless of what it is. That's

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just

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All right, let's get let's get to news we got so much to cover

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this week.

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And in fact, I want to start with some board apes speaking of

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NF T's let's start with you know maybe the biggest other than

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other than mine of course and and that is the headline here

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imagination gaming partners with board a community to launch a

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papalii game. So the first ever NFT inspired board game and I

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don't know if this is purposeful spelling here I am guessing it

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is obviously it's in quotes

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will feature 22 board eight caricatures with

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Chance for players to win exclusive board a yacht club

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NFT. So it's a board game, it features board apes. And you can

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win an NFT. I'm not sure how, you know via presale, they're

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pre selling it via a papalii.com. If you're really

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interested in this, I don't know if it's loosely based on

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monopoly. I'm not sure what the the rules of this tabletop game

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are.

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But it is a tabletop game, it is a board game, using board eight

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characters. What do you think of this? Jeff, other than the

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fantastic Pong, I love the Pong. I'm always a sucker for fun. I

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like to board eight is expanding the IP into different areas.

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Like I think, you know, the fact that they're, they're bringing

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it on the board game is interesting. I just don't know

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how big what is the overlap between board eight fans and

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that that, you know, mindset versus people who play board

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games and tabletop monopoly. Like, I suspect that the number

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of people who are fans of board eight is not, it's not tiny, but

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it's not huge to begin with. And then the overlap between those

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people and the people who are really hardcore into monopoly

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and like, board games has to be very low. So I wonder if they're

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gonna sell this as almost like a collectible thing. Because that

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could make sense. They sell it at a high price. It's almost

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like collectible. Because we know that the mindset of these

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NFT collectors and the people who are buying board apes,

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they're willing to pay up for something scarce in nature and

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has value or even even more so like secondary market value. So

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I can kind of see that. But if they're trying to make this like

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an actual mass market product where like, you know, your

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parents or my parents can walk into a CVS and like, want to buy

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a board game, and they buy this instead of monopoly or glue or

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whatever else. I'm not so bullish on.

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Well, it does say it says that there's a quote here in the

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article from the president of imagination, gaming, who they're

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the partner that they're making the game with. And it says

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beyond getting in on the board a pipe. The gameplay allows

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everyone to learn a little bit about the crypto world, even if

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you don't fully understand NFT jargon, or the cryptocurrency

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world. I mean, I don't really buy that, right. Like, to me,

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the audience for this is really, its collectors, it probably is

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not a fun game. There's probably no one in this audience that

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cares to play a tabletop game for the most part. And I feel

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like this is just another collectible. And let's face it,

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the people who buy board apes are collectors, right? They're,

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they're paying for collectibles. This is just another collectible

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to sell them.

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100 No, I think I 100% agree with that. I wouldn't be

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surprised to see these things selling on ebay make a limited

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amount still selling on the secondary market for big dogs.

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But yeah, to your point, it's a collectible.

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I mean, they're pre ordering for $50. But it doesn't say if it's

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a limited run or not. I'm not sure that I mean, again, it's

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interesting that if the boxes fire, I bet you could buy it for

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like 250 400 or sell it for that.

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And I bet that they make a ton of easy money on something like

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this just because people buy for this exact reason to collect it.

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Now. You know, let's put the story next to another one. And

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this one you spotted on Twitter, which I love. Let me show the

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story first and then I'll show the Twitter post. The story here

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was Christie's wonderkid no and Davis who sold that $69 million

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people is leaving the auction house to lead crypto punks into

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the future. Now, for those who don't know crypto punks, also

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owned by Hugo labs, who owns board a yacht club. So same

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company we're talking about here. And Noah as part of this

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new new role, put out a series of tweets which I'm going to

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read here. So he says I'm humbled and honored to announce

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I'll be leaving my current post in July to steward the crypto

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punks as brand lead under the umbrella of yoga labs. Before I

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say anything else, it's important to confirm what we

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won't be doing. Simply put, I will not F with the punks. What

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does that mean? It means no punk punks on lunchboxes or cringe TV

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shows slash bad movies. It means no arbitrary rushed utility or

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thoughtless airdrops. It means if you love your punks because

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they are what they are just punks. Then you and I see eye to

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eye. The first thing I will do is this. If you're a punk holder

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and you care about the legacy future of the brand, I want to

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talk one on one. I'll be at the punks brunch during NFT NYC and

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will begin scheduling sit downs immediately. Wherever punks go

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the community will help guide us now. He says a bunch of other

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things but that was the gist of this

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What do you think of his comments, Jeff? Especially

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compared to the last story where we saw you collapse? Again, the

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company he's just joined this call it selling out in the way

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he says he's never gonna do with the board apes IP?

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Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure I understand this, when you own an

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IP, you know, one of the ways to monetize it is through these

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various different channels. You know, for game movies like this,

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this is a Disney strategy, right? They literally coined

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that right, you have an AI, dicing exactly the, that's the

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perfect word merchandising, put in store and make stuff down on

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when you make a ride at theme park. And for a long time, I

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feel like we were hearing that these crypto brands were

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becoming IPs. And then they were going to do that exact

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merchandising strategy, there was going to be a video game, it

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was going to be a movie. And if you own the the eight, you would

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be able to use your aid in those things. And you would get

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merchants you would get

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you would get revenue shares from which to some extent made a

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little bit of sense, if you assume that these things

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actually are right. He's not sure how much I buy into that. I

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think the top couple are fairly well known amongst people like

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us who in this world, but I don't think they're, you know,

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it's not Mickey Mouse, let's put it that way. So I'm a bit

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surprised that, you know, he feels that this is what the

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community wants, and that there's this backlash to using

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their the, what is an IP as actually an IP to make revenue.

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So I'm surprised it's one thing to be thoughtful like, I

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understand if his point was like, Look, we're just not going

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to be crazy about it and make it just completely in your face and

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try to monetize something I can I can get behind that like being

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being careful with using the IP, like anyone who owns a valuable

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IP would agree that's but to completely be dismissive of it

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is just a bit a bit odd to me. And it kind of maybe it speaks a

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little bit to who's buying these things just like sort of a

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vanity project. They don't even care about getting revenue

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stream like a revenue stream or like making returns. It's just

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like a, it's really just like a show me good that people buy.

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Yeah, I mean, I take serious issue with the word wunderkind

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in that title, right? Like, I don't know the guy, maybe he's a

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genius in other ways. But if you're if your only point of

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reference is he sold the people for 69 million bucks. I mean,

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this is a piece of art that was sold at peak hype, right to some

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moron who like thinks this is going to be worth 10 times this

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in the future. Like is it's pure luck, right? Like it was right

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place right time. So give him credit for that. But like, this

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is not a strategy. This is not a business model. This is not that

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he has no plan to actually build a business here. All he's saying

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is I'm going to do nothing and hope the value of these things

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increases, which maybe a year ago, that was the strategy in

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you know,

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June, almost July 2022. I think this is this is lunacy, right?

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Like, this just does not work anymore, that we're we're past

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the point. We have to be past the point of this greater fool

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theory, which by the way, Bill Gates, you know, said the same

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thing that I've been saying for the last year or two now.

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That, you know, we have to get past this and there has to be

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real business. And there can be we just talked about a papalii

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Like, it's silly, but people will probably buy that. And you

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know, the merchandising thing was an old Spaceballs Mel Brooks

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reference, but it works. Disney has shown it can work. Right?

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And, and, and you're right, maybe we're reading too much

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into his words, maybe he means he's only going to do quality

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partnerships and IP extensions. But I don't think that's what he

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means here. Like, I think this really is like, I'm gonna do

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nothing. We're just gonna, it's all about the punks and we're

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going to see this you know, we're going to ride this to the

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moon kind of mentality that

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has got a lot of people in trouble, and I think has

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destroyed a lot of value over the last two or three months.

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And instead should be embracing sort of how do we how do we

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extend this IP this brand? To 100 different things and

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maintain the quality? Show me that strategy right? How do we

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make great things with the crypto punks IP as opposed to

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and gotta respect the quotes below to start a new job and

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saying look, I'm not gonna do a

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one on one meetings

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NFT NYC

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I'm not gonna do anything.

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Yeah, I don't know. It's weird. And it's like this is gonna

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backfire. So interesting. We hired a guy whose background is

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you know, he was he built a digital auction shirt like maybe

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that should show in and of itself like where where there

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you go labs his mind is in terms of this whole strategy.

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Like, why not hire someone? A product leader at Disney or

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someone who's built, you know, like, like, someone who

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thematic universe stratagem and like a brand expert licensing

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expert, like someone like that. It's like, No, you hired a guy

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who ran an online auction house. What does that have to do with

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building like an IP brand?

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Well, this is why I think this comes to a head, right? This has

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to, because you've got bored apes on one side, merchandising,

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monetizing, doing brand extensions, I think we, we

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talked about a TV show or like a few episodes ago, now this eight

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papalii. And then on the other side, you've got crypto punks,

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and this guy who, you know, this is like, this is religion. This

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is not business. And, you know,

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when it's all about the brand, and okay, that's good. But like

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if you do nothing with it, and you don't sell anything around

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it, no, there's no business there. And I think those two

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cultures, those two viewpoints have to clash at some point. And

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we will, I think, I think you will see someone get ejected or

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people get ejected as a consequence, I don't think you

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can maintain two radically different strategies within the

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same company forever. So we'll be seeing which one it will be

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interesting to see which one wins out. I suspect, investors

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are going to want to see the broader merchandising not rely

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on some Yes, the greater fool Let's hope the the apes we

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bought keeps going up works in a bull market. And the people who

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own the apes are like, Well, I'm only going to own this for a

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little bit. I don't care. I'm just watching go up. I'm

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watching secondary market prices go up. I'm getting rich. You

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know, don't worry about doing anything like don't ruin the

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brand. You have a great thing. As soon as that reverses. I

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suspect it has I haven't looked at the prices, secondary market

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prices of these things, but I'm sure they're down. You know, 50%

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Plus, as soon as that happens, you start having the bag holders

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who own these things. Start saying, Okay, well, I bought

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this for a million dollars. It's now apparently worth 200 grand.

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Get me some utility for it. But in removing dividend checks, get

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me some revenue, like let's make this a thing. So I suspect this

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conversation is going to get turned around very

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interesting. It's an interesting one of those very interesting

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wants to follow to see how it plays out. Let's talk about two

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stories from the maybe the the biggest personality of all in

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the metaverse space. And that's Mark Zuckerberg himself here.

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And two stories coming out of meta this week. Let me start

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with this one. Jeff. The headline here Mark Zuckerberg

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envisions a billion people in the metaverse spending hundreds

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of dollars each. So he told CNBC is Jim Cramer that Mehta

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platforms is in a position to spend extensively on long term

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research, and that the metaverse will usher in a massive economy.

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He thinks they're gonna get a billion people doing hundreds of

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dollars of commerce. And this is a quote from Mark, each buying

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digital goods, digital content, different things to express

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themselves. So whether that's clothing for their avatar or

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different digital goods for their virtual home, or things to

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decorate their virtual conference room, utilities to be

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able to be more productive in virtual and augmented reality.

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And across the metaverse overall.

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You know, let me just put that next to let me put the two

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stories together here because I think both are interesting. Back

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to back here. The other one is, Zuckerberg details this plan to

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move your digital items across the metaverse. So what happened

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is they've rebranded Facebook pay has become meta pay, but the

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idea is to make it a wallet for the metaverse so that you can

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manage your identity, your items, your payment methods, all

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within meta and the metaverse.

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So you know, a sort of wallet and payment solution slash

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standard for the metaverse. What do you make of soccer Berg's

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prediction here, the billion people, the hundreds of dollars,

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the things they're going to do? I mean, I know it's sort of a

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big, big topic. Jeff, if he had said this a year ago, I think

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people would have probably been surprised, but at this point,

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like I've read that headline and was like, okay, or is that

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surprised? Like, I don't know if anyone's at this point,

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surprised that that's their goal, or that we expected that

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will happen. Right? Like, the question is really then becomes

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well, how long will it take? But I don't think either of us are

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wouldn't be surprised at all. If we're in the future, five, seven

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years from now, and there's a billion people who are

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interacting with the metaverse on a daily basis, and you know,

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spending hundreds of dollars. I think that's even very

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conservative. I think once you get the people in the metaverse,

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they're going to be spending way more at they'll be spending

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whatever they would normally spend in the real world

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basically in the metaverse, so I don't think that's surprising at

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all. The piece that was interesting was in the article

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they talked a bit about the Oculus, headsets and the talk

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Too little bit about how the shipments have been a bit

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disappointing after like the holiday season. They said

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shipments of headsets have failed out number shipments of

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PCs or smartphones. It's not shocking. But I do think that's

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that's the area where I feel like Mehta is going to have the

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biggest struggle where they've really tethered their whole plan

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to the quest and to VR, which I think is ultimately potentially

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going to be their downfall. As well as the fact that I just

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think the medicine brand meta, and Facebook's brand is so bad

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right now amongst consumers. Like, I just don't know if

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you're going to get the kind of adoption, even if they build the

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best technical Metaverse, which they honestly probably end up

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with, probably will end up doing just because they're investing

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so much. I don't know if they're ever going to get the adoption

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just because they feel like they have such a bad brand image. Do

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you think that's something that matters? If you think it's, if

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they build the best product, it won't matter? People will just

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get over it and use it? Or do you think actually been

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tarnished? You know, Jeff, I actually think my view on Oculus

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relative to Facebook and betta is totally different on this

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one. And that is because I actually think Oculus is is the

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greatest most possible hardware is really hard, right? It takes

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a lot of years, takes a lot of development and research. It

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takes a lot of money. And I believe Oculus Mehta with Oculus

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has at least a few year has started like I don't think

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anyone's even remotely close. You could say maybe valve with

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the index. But for the most part, Oculus is way ahead. Lower

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cost hardware, better technology more portable, all these good

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things right. And I think this is their mode because if we

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believe Oculus is going to be the on ramp for the metaverse,

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and the art is going to be the on ramp for the metaverse.

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Oculus puts Mehta in a an incredibly good position. It's a

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huge competitive advantage, etc. Right.

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I think Oculus actually will probably go down in history is

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maybe one of the best investments. In meta slash

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Facebook's history. They paid a billion dollars for Oculus. And

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if we believe there's going to be a billion people in the

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metaverse if you believe Mark Zuckerberg is number here,

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right? You're talking about a business not going to be worth a

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billion dollars. Same at a business in just an Oculus.

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That's going to be worth a trillion dollars. You're talking

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about, you know, an installed base the size of Apple iPhones,

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right? Probably a two or $3 trillion business. And so

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I really do think Oculus is the feather in the cap for meta. I

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think it's their big competitive advantage. And I also think it

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to your, again to where I disagree with the point you

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made. And I understand the concern. There's this reputation

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concern with Facebook, right. But Oculus softens that a bit,

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right, the kid who gets an Oculus for Christmas, he plays

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with it. He's playing Star Wars. He doesn't know that it's

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Facebook, he doesn't care that it's Facebook, right? It creates

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a new perception of the brand and a new face for the brand.

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And I think this is a good thing for them. But it's a good point,

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right? There is this reputational risk with Facebook.

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The question becomes that billion user number, right, does

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that. Is that plausible? Is that reasonable?

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You've got you know, how many Facebook users

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maybe 2 billion to 3 billion billion, right? So you got to

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think one out of every two, or one out of every three Facebook

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user transitions to the metaverse.

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Yeah, when you put it that way, it's a high it's a little bit of

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a high bar.

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But yeah, over the over the course of time, I definitely

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believe you know, we're super bullish that they will hit that

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note. Well, let me just take a step back. The Metaverse will

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hit that number, will it be Facebook? That I guess I'm maybe

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not as convinced as you are, but I think your points are valid in

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terms of the brand softening. I do think that if you buy an

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Oculus, you're probably not thinking about it as Facebook

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problems. You know, if you're if you're a teenager in your early

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20s You probably don't even know what Facebook is. You probably

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don't think of Instagrams product either. So that's a

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that's a fair point. And hardware is hard. So to the

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extent that they are the best currently at VR hardware that is

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a massive advantage that I guess I probably was maybe underrated

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Yeah, I mean, let's let's talk about another potential

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advantage here. And I think this story is an interesting one and

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talks about meta again. The headline here is meta and

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Microsoft team up to create Metaverse standards. Apple and

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Google sit out. The group believes open standards will

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help realize the so called Metaverse, so

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bunch of companies are forming what they're calling the

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metaverse standards forum. Meta is a founding

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member big tech names like Adobe, Microsoft and Vidya also

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founding members. But Apple and Google are not participating.

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Now the forum it says is meant to foster the development of

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open standards for the metaverse. They will explore

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where the lack of interoperability is holding back

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Metaverse deployment, and how the work of standards developing

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organizations defining an evolving needed needed standards

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may be coordinated, accelerated. You have Adobe epic, IKEA,

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Qualcomm, Sony, like a bunch of big names, all part of this

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forum. I'm curious, two things. What do you think of all these

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companies getting together to create some standards? Or at

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least trying to find some standards, Jeff, and maybe more

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interesting? What do you think of Apple and Google sitting out?

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So that was gonna sort of be my take? I definitely understand

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its part, I want to hear your opinion, because this is

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something you pounded the drum on for a while, even from really

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like episode one on it's been all about comparing the

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metaverse to the internet and how the Internet has, you know,

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created standards. And that's really what these kind of open

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open standards, and that's how the Internet evolved. So I

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definitely want to hear your take on that. What I thought was

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the most interesting part was who's not involved, as you

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mentioned, and it's funny that it's actually the platforms that

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are the biggest on mobile, and also the ones that are charging

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these exorbitant kind of tape rates. So I just wonder if

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there's some, you know, if that plays into the reason why

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they're not jumping into these open standards, and non closed

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guard, you know, walled garden approach of this, this Metaverse

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that the others that maybe have a little bit less turf to defend

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are kind of jumping into, you know, with open arms. So maybe

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they're saying, Okay, let's, let's take a step back. We've a

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pretty good thing on mobile here, you know, with these app

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stores taking 30% Cut and no interoperability, like why don't

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we just take a take a breather before we jump into?

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I mean, you know what I love about the story, because we

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didn't discuss this pre show that I knew you were gonna have

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a totally different take on the why Apple and Google set out

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like I there's probably like four or five different reasons

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we could come up with. Right. And I think that's an

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interesting one. I hadn't thought of that. But yeah, I

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mean, they want to protect their walled gardens here. And any

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kind of open standards may be bad for business in their mind.

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To the standards point, yes, I've been beating the drum about

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it. I think it's really just a question of, once you've seen

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enough tech lifecycles like a different different technology

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metas if you want to call them come and go.

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The patterns are always the same, right? And new,

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groundbreaking technologies, revolutionary technologies,

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standards. I think you have to it was inevitable that it had to

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get there for everyone to succeed for the vision of a true

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capital and Metaverse to be realized. So I applaud this. I

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think this had to happen. I'm happy it's happening. I think I

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called it but Mehta was going to be leading the way on this. And

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I think we will see great things from this group of companies in

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terms of laying the groundwork for what will eventually be the

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capital and metaverse.

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Well, so my tinfoil hat theory came from, like my own

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perspective, which is, I believe the metaverse gets built,

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AI or evolves, not necessarily from a game, but from gaming

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culture, gaming minds, gaming themes, right? Like the

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metaverse truly is just a superset of gaming, or maybe

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even a subset of gaming, if you want to call it that, right like

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gaming. And the metaverse are intimately linked in my mind and

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cannot be separated. And the two companies that sat out in my

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mind, are the two big tech companies today that just don't

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get gaming. They don't get it. Right. Google has tried and

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failed miserably. Apple. I mean, you could argue they've sort of

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tried but definitely not. Not.

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Not like in sort of, in line with their resources and their

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capabilities, right. They could be doing way more. And I think

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it's to companies that don't have gaming cultures within

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them. Like what with like, if you look at it, it's it's just

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not their bread and butter. And it's not an area they

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understand. And so I'm not surprised that they probably

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won't really understand the metaverse either. I think it

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just follows that they won't and they will be laggards in that

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Metaverse discussion now could they catch up? Sure, right. Like

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Apple's rumored goggles could be groundbreaking and everyone

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wants them but I'm very skeptical because I don't think

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they understand

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Then gaming, either one of them all that well. And this is why

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they sit out. That's my that's my tinfoil hat theory. That's

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fair. I think that makes sense.

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Yeah, it's an interesting one I like I said, I really hope, I

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really hope it pans out to them building something, you know,

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really cool. On top of whatever standards they create here.

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Let's, let's finish on one last article here, Jeff, and that is,

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this is cool. We talked about hardware in the context of

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Oculus. Here's another piece of hardware. And this is solena

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Labs building a web three mobile phone. So the backers of the

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Solana blockchain said the devices will cost around $1,000

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be available for delivery in early 2023.

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The phone is going to be called saga, it's an Android handset.

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It's a modified ozone handset. I don't know that the the probably

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no Diem, I guess, with specialty crypto wallet functions. And the

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Selenium mobile stack Software Development Kit for web three

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programs. Cost $1,000, like I said, be available early 2023.

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It's their biggest bet yet on mobile focus growth. It's going

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to feature a web three decentralized App Store,

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integrated Solana pay for on chain payments, a mobile wallet

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adapter, like all about mobile, and crypto mobile and mobile web

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three games, I guess is the vision here, all in sort of one

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handset you could buy now. I'm not sure if this is more for

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developers or more for end users. But what do you think

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Jeff, of the Solana mobile phone here saga? The first thing I

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literally thought was this, this is this is Google stadia for

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phones. And it's like it's a problem solution. It's a tech

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solution in search of a problem. Like, maybe it's a little

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facetious, because I do think the mobile, the current mobile

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ecosystem is really not optimized for like crypto

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gaming, stuff like that, just because the walled gardens that

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Apple will have kind of like what we just talked about, you

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can't do pain, you can't really do crypto payments on those app

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stores.

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But I would have rather someone come up with a software solution

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within that ecosystem that made it less clunky than the current

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version, but didn't include having to buy a whole new phone,

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I just do not fundamentally believe there's enough people

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out there that you're gonna get enough adoption, that this is

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gonna get critical mass, like, I just don't believe they're gonna

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create a good enough product from a hardware device

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standpoint. And then also an application standpoint, you will

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have on sure if a bunch of crypto developers go to apps for

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this, but I just, I find it hard to believe that you're going to,

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you're going to see a massive adoption from a developer

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perspective of this phone, because I just don't think

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you'll see enough people buying. Wow. So I'm not super bullish on

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it. But I do think it's interesting when the to actually

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follow up is not something that I had expected opposite from

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from

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what do you think?

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I'm gonna call it something but I think crypto companies, for

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better or for worse, because you could say, and it's a good

Unknown:

thing, it's, it can also be a bad thing. In this case, I think

Unknown:

it's a bad thing. Where, because everything has been rah rah

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crypto for the last two years or three years like and, you know,

Unknown:

everything's up into the right and, and everyone's gotten

Unknown:

massively wealthy, and there's billions being thrown at this

Unknown:

like that, you tend to develop a bit of a god complex, right? And

Unknown:

you start to just assume you can do everything. Right. And we've

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talked about this before, like, every every blockchain based

Unknown:

game pitch deck that I see is like, this is our token. And by

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the way, we're gonna make a great game. And then this is

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like, like, okay, but you just assumed like the really hardest

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part and like, assuming you can make a phone, which is a piece

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of hardware, which is really hard. And this is not going to

Unknown:

be a great phone, right? It's some, probably some Chinese ODM,

Unknown:

I don't know this company that is just going to be a plastic

Unknown:

and gore glass slab. That's no different than any other phone.

Unknown:

And to your point, you don't if you don't reach critical mass,

Unknown:

what is the point of this whole exercise other than wasting

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zillions of dollars developing your own phone? When you're

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right. And I'm totally in agreement with you here that all

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that development effort should have been on? How do we crack

Unknown:

the existing platforms and leverage the existing

Unknown:

distribution and make, you know, grandma's iPhone, good enough to

Unknown:

use to do all the things that the Solana phone can do?

Unknown:

That's the bigger price. And so I don't know why you go after

Unknown:

the small price that's exceedingly difficult, unless

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you make the assumption that it's not that hard. Right. And

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that's a row

Unknown:

wrong assumption. It's an assumption that comes from a god

Unknown:

complex. I think it's just an also a misunderstanding of

Unknown:

ecosystem. Like, I don't think there's that many consumers that

Unknown:

are yearning so much to use crypto technology that they're

Unknown:

going to buy a whole phone to be able to do it. The benefit of

Unknown:

crypto

Unknown:

very small group, but the benefit of crypto technology is

Unknown:

one, it's all happening in the background. So if there ever got

Unknown:

to a point where the use case was so great, that there was

Unknown:

enough consumers that really yearn for this, that they were

Unknown:

willing to go switch their smartphone, which is an absolute

Unknown:

pain in the neck, that nobody wants to do you know, what Apple

Unknown:

and Google are gonna do, they're gonna say, Oh, guess what, with

Unknown:

Apple Pay, you can now use crypto, and then your, your

Unknown:

phone is dead. Second, they decide to do that. So as soon as

Unknown:

you find the killer app, they're just gonna come and steal

Unknown:

everything like, Oh, we're losing a little bit of market

Unknown:

share, guess what we now enabled crypto payments, boom, ever.

Unknown:

You're got your install base is that, like,

Unknown:

it's so insightful? And I think so funny. You say that, because

Unknown:

I read an article just the other day that every time Apple does

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like their, their core, like their twice a year, you know,

Unknown:

like where they show off the new hardware. Like at their

Unknown:

worldwide developer conference, they show off new features in

Unknown:

their operating systems, that I read this article that said,

Unknown:

every worldwide developer conference, when they announce a

Unknown:

feature 1000 startups go out of business.

Unknown:

And you're right.

Unknown:

They do figure out some killer app for this that everyone

Unknown:

wants, while you already have how many billion iPhones like

Unknown:

out in the world, you just added as a feature in the next version

Unknown:

of iOS. And I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's the point

Unknown:

though. Maybe they want to spur, Google and Apple to do

Unknown:

something. Maybe that's an expensive.

Unknown:

Like, that's an expensive way of doing it. So

Unknown:

like that was this was a fun episode.

Unknown:

That is the end though. I will say. Don't forget, guys. This

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podcast drops every single week. So share it with a friend share

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it with a colleague, tell everyone about it. Go check out

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our brother slash sister podcast if you want to call it met a

Unknown:

woman and also business of esports if you're not subscribed

Unknown:

to those Jeff's on business of esports also. And so if you love

Unknown:

the juice, you can't get enough of the juice at Jeff Cohen 23 Go

Unknown:

subscribe to business of esports as well if you found this here.

Unknown:

But we really appreciate you guys tuning in every week. We'll

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leave that Review share with a friend. Don't forget the future

Unknown:

is fun. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks for joining us here

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on meta business. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast

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everywhere you get your podcasts, leave a five star

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review and tell your friends, family and colleagues all about

Unknown:

us. Also, make sure to follow metta TV on all socials to get

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