Pastoral burnout is a silent epidemic in church leadership. In this crucial episode of the Pivot Podcast, we sit down with Rev. Nicole Bullock, a church planter, ministry innovator, and program director of Faith+Lead’s Seeds Fellowship. Nicole courageously shares her personal struggles with burnout and offers practical wisdom for sustainable ministry.

This episode tackles real challenges facing today's pastors, from setting boundaries without guilt to redefining success in leadership. Nicole discusses balancing family life with pastoral responsibilities, creating supportive church communities, and transitioning to more sustainable ministry models. Whether you're currently experiencing burnout or want to prevent it, this conversation provides essential strategies for maintaining your passion and effectiveness in ministry.

Show Notes:

• Faith+Lead Seeds Fellowship
• Nicole’s website: https://nicoledbullock.com/

Watch this episode on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/V-dJ_r3wcIY

Mentioned in this episode:

2025 Aus Memorial Lecture

Nicole: How do we have a group of people, a staff or a group of leaders that are working with each other to help move an agenda or a mission forward together in person? And so in the day and age that we're in giving our mobility, given how things have expanded, given even our social media culture with influencers growing and that that edge it is is much more difficult to have a group or, um, people, a community, a structure around you to help move things forward. And so I'm noticing even more than, um, what I had when I was first starting ministry that leaders really are pulling, pulling the load alone, pulling the load alone, and feeling like there is no one, to connect with.

Alicia: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Alicia Granholm and joined by co-host Dwight Zscheile.

Dwight: Here at Luther Seminary's Faith lead, we see four key pivots the church should make here in the 21st century to address some of the challenges and opportunities facing it. And the first is a pivot in posture from trying to focus on fixing institutional problems to a posture of listening, discerning, and following where God's leading. The second is a pivot in focus from membership to discipleship. The third is a pivot in structure from one shape or one size fits all approaches to church, to a mixed ecology of lots of different forms of Christian community, reaching lots of different kinds of people. In the fourth is a pivot in leadership from primarily clergy led, lay supported ministry to primarily lay led, clergy supported ministry.

Alicia: That's right, Dwight. And that is why we are very excited to welcome the Reverend Nicole Bullock to the show today. Nicole is the founding pastor of Blue Oaks Church and consultant with nonprofit organizations and church leaders. Nicole is also the program director for Our Seeds Fellowship for Ministry Innovators here at Luther Seminary's Faith lead. As an expert in innovative ministry approaches. We knew that we really wanted to have Nicole on the podcast because we see the church being invited, um, to a couple pivots. One its posture and being really spiritually rooted enough to listen and discern where God is leading as well as in its structure. And moving from this one size fits all model of ministry to a mixed ecology. And as we're seeing it, these are both sources of burnout actually taking place today, especially for clergy. So we are really excited to have Nicole on the show. Nicole, welcome.

Nicole: Thank you. Thank you all for having me. Excited to be here.

Dwight: So Nicole, tell our audience a bit about yourself, your story and your journey in ministry.

Nicole: Uh, it's almost like, where do I begin? Uh, but I'll. I'll start at, uh, when I was born. Um. Just kidding, guys. Uh, but I've been in ministry, uh, since college. Really is when I initially felt a really strong call to ministry, specifically pastoral ministry. And, um, I just kind of followed a trajectory from that point. And my first ministry experiences were youth pastor, associate pastor, and then eventually it pivoted, you know, skipping lots of steps in my story, but eventually it, uh, it pivoted to planting a church in the Twin Cities called Blue Oaks Church. And I did that for about 15 years. And so that was an exciting journey. Um, we kind of got, you know, as many churches did, um, a little disrupted, if we want to say that. That's an understatement. Um, by Covid and did some things online and eventually fully transitioned. But, um, my ministry experience from getting started planting a church, leading, uh, leading as a woman, leading as a woman of color, then leading through Covid, uh, has given me lots of opportunities to grow and also just lots of experience. And so I've now pivoted, um, most of what I do to training, equipping church leaders and other nonprofit professionals and helping them navigate these waters.

Alicia: Nicole, can you share with us a little bit more about, really, that experience of planting a new church and what that was like and some of the learnings that you maybe, you know, some of the top learnings that you took away from from a founding pastor, right, as well as, um, kind of living into some of the different stages of a new ministry.

Nicole: So from that experience and just getting a church started, I will say, like many, many church planters, I was enthusiastic, I was passionate, and it was great. And I had a church planting coach that my denomination assigned to me at the time, and I was so eager because we had a progressive plan where you start with preview services is what we call them. So you move from like, um, having meetings in your home, small Bible studies, preview services, and then every Sunday. And so as a new church planner, I was chomping at the bit. I was ready to get these things done. I'm ready for every Sunday and my church planting coach told me. He said, Nicole, once you get started with every Sunday, it is. It's really exhausting. It can be tiring. So take your time, really prepare and get ready for that. And I thought to myself, I got this. You know, I'm passionate. I'm called, let's do this. And, um, looking back at it, uh, I do wish I would have spent more time carefully preparing for all the dynamics that would shift in leadership with moving to a weekly service, things like, um, assigning tasks, creating boundaries, doing self-care things that you don't quite get to do in the process leading up or think about. Um, I definitely would have spent more time doing that. Uh, because once you do start the Sunday rhythm, you are focused on the Sunday rhythm. And so yeah, so that's a little bit of my story of how I got started and what it was like once I got in. It was definitely exciting. Absolutely loved it. But I will say in retrospect, I didn't have the most sustainable practices in place that would help me to do the work I was doing.

Dwight: So, Nicole, tell us a little bit more about the context of Blue Oaks Church. Like what kind of neighborhood was it planted in and what kind of people did it draw, and what did you learn about kind of being in mission in this time leading up to the pandemic, at least in that context.

Nicole: Well, we I am originally from, uh, Chicago, born and raised actual city. So that's important for Chicagoans who claim, like Chicago. We like to say we're from the city. And the reason why that's important for me is because I wanted to do urban ministry. I wanted to be in the city when we relocated to Minnesota. So I was in seminary and I transitioned to Minnesota to plant a church. And so immediately I knew I wanted to plant in or near the city. And so for me, when I got started, I actually started working. My background is in social work, and so I got a job at a community center, um, which was literally located right behind my house. And so I would walk to work every day. And I was over their youth program, and I had this great opportunity to minister to to talk with youth and their families. And I also worked at a church at the same time. So there was this beautiful sort of marriage between my work, um, what I was doing and then the work that I did at the church. And so I began my journey before planting as a bivocational pastor. So by the time it was time to transition to doing it full time and getting on that cycle, the demographic that we grew was from north Minneapolis, which is where I lived and worked. And so we got the church started, and lots of people who I created partnerships with or, uh, relationships will probably be a more appropriate word. Relationships with. Um, as I worked there, they were some of the first to join and come to the church. And then eventually it was through those relationships that the church, um, began to grow. Uh, they would tell their friends about it. We stayed in the community, and eventually we did make some geographic changes, staying as close to the city as we possibly could. Um, because we wanted to meet in a school. And so we met at a school that was not very far from north Minneapolis. It was a suburb that was adjacent to it, and it started with me doing work in the city, living in the city, making relationships in the city, which then transitioned to more people telling folks about Blue Oaks. And we start meeting at a school in Brooklyn Center for anybody who's familiar with the area and just continued to grow from there.

Alicia: Nicole, you've also worked with a lot of ministry leaders over the years. What are some of the things that you're seeing with ministry and ministry leaders today, and how are you understanding leaders and some of the contextual challenges and opportunities that they're experiencing today?

Nicole: I'm going to answer that question. I did want to just rewind really quickly to Dwight's question about context and who we drew. I also want to say that we were purposely a church just not focused on urban missions, but also being a diverse congregation. It was very important to us that we were a picture here on earth of what the kingdom of heaven looks like. Um, people from every tribe, every race, every color. And so we were really intentional about also wanting to build a community, a context in which people from different backgrounds, races, socioeconomic, um, backgrounds are able to come and find community together. So it was a tall order, but I would say because we were so relationally, relationally, or relationship oriented, it worked well for us. Doesn't mean we didn't have hiccups, but it worked well for us. And so I just wanted to answer that. But, Alicia, to answer your question about things that I'm noticing changing among leadership and that context, I would say the biggest thing is actually the ability to set boundaries and have self care. I think ministry now has pivoted to where many leaders are doing the heavy lifting. I know there's there's a saying in the church where it's, you know, 10% of the people doing 90% of the work. Well, if we just take that ten. Just know that half of that ten is the person that's over the organization. And so what I noticed now is that because there have been so many changes, um, giving them things like the pandemic and our world has just become so much broader and open, meaning people are working more easily, remotely, able to move around a lot more easily than they were able to. It is much more complex and difficult to. How do we have a group of people, a staff or a group of leaders that are working with each other to help move an agenda or a mission forward together in person? And so in the day and age that we're in giving our mobility, given how things have expanded, given even our social media culture with influencers growing and that that edge it is is much more difficult to have a group or people, a community, a structure around you to help move things forward. And so I'm noticing even more than, um, what I had when I was first starting ministry that leaders really are pulling, pulling the load alone, pulling the load alone, and feeling like there is no one, um, to connect with. Does that make sense?

Dwight: Yeah. So, Nicole, let's, um, let's dig into that a little bit more, because I suspect that many of our listeners and viewers will resonate with exactly what you're describing. They're feeling that burden. Right. And I love that image of pulling the load. It just feels so heavy. Um, what would be your counsel to leaders who find themselves in that kind of situation?

Nicole: I think for me, the first order of self-care is to find someone who can help you carry the load. Um, even if that is a professional. Get a spiritual director. Get a therapist. I think sometimes we as leaders, we're so laser focused on the mission and the work that we forget that we can still be creative and tugging on other resources than the ones that are right in front of us. And so I find that it is very helpful to pull on a professional to help you carry the load. If that group of people or that structure is not in place for you, it's okay to say, hey, let me employ a professional somewhere to help me carry this load. And I think that's a first good step, but I think a good next step after that is establishing boundaries. There is so much talk in our culture now and, um, in our society about trauma and healing. and how do we deal with things and set boundaries so we're healthier people. And I do think that that is absolutely crucial. We must set boundaries with others. But before getting to a place where we set boundaries with others, I think it is absolutely imperative that we set boundaries with ourselves that we say to ourselves, here is what I can do. Here's what I can't do. Here's what I know. Um, will lead me to a place of anxiety. Or, uh, it may trigger some sort of trauma if I put myself in this situation. Here's what will lead me to burn out. And so I think it's so incredibly important that before we take the steps in establishing boundaries with others if possible, because there are some, there are some situations in which you may not have the opportunity to do your own personal assessment before carrying out boundary boundaries with others, but if possible, to set those boundaries with yourself and to do your own work first. I know it is so tempting as pastors to do other people's work right? There tends to be, um, a savior complex out there. A man I know I'm not in church, but I'm a preacher. Amen, I say amen. Um, and that temptation is we want to help everybody else solve their problems, see their problems. Um, but what does Scripture say right before we get the plank? You know the splinter. I'm sorry. Out of someone else's eye, we first have to do what? Remove the plank from our own. And so I think it's really important. Employ a professional, if possible and if needed. And then begin with self. Start doing some self assessment and self work first.

Alicia: Nicole I'd love if you could share some about how, um, the your own self-care and realization for, um, boundaries and, um, and recognizing your own need in figuring out a different way forward. Um, I'm curious if you could share some of the things, maybe that, um, from your own ministry and experience that helped you to see the value and importance of that?

Nicole: Well, not only am I a minister, I'm also a mom. And for me, being a mom. And that experience was the very beginning of me beginning to understand how important self-care and boundaries were. So when we began ministry, my husband and I, when we first got started, we did not have children and it was in the midst of the journey that we became adoptive parents. Um, and I remember our first. For any adoptive parent out there, you know, your story is usually unique. And we had an even more unique story as we were foster to adopt parents, meaning we didn't have the time to prepare, if you will. There was no nine months. There was a call from a social worker, and we ended up meeting and picking up our baby daughter on the same day we got the call, and so there was no room to prepare. And I was so excited about being a parent and leading that. I didn't do a self assessment and go, hey, perhaps I need to figure out how to delegate more to my team and to others instead. Um, I was so, you know, tunnel vision focused that I would have my baby in a moby. And, um, how do I describe a moby? Essentially, my baby was strapped to me while I'm leading meetings, and one Sunday my baby was really upset and she just wouldn't go to children's church. And so I preached a whole message with my baby attached to me. Um, and I thought to myself in retrospect, this is crazy. This is crazy. Like what? What am I doing? This is not sustainable. And but I did not do the work I needed to do beforehand. Now, this is all hindsight. Is 2020 right? In the midst of it, you're doing the best you can and what you know. So I don't want anyone to feel condemned or judged. We do what we, you know, know in the moment. But when we know better, we do better. And it was in that moment that I began to say, how am I going to balance motherhood and being a lead pastor my Sunday mornings? I don't have a wife. I am the wife and the mother. I am the one, um, preparing my sermon, making sure my kids eat, and then styling their hair. You know, for church. How do I sustain and do all of this? And so I had to do work to invite people in to my circle. I had to, um, put down this narrative that a more, um, a woman who sacrifices is a woman who is successful. And I think in our society, um, the narrative of women tends to be in, in black women, um, tends to be the more we sacrifice, the more we're celebrated, the more we give up ourselves, the more we're. Celebrate your really good mom. You're a really good woman when you do all these things. And so I had work around this really broken narrative that I had around womanhood and motherhood that was completely imbalanced. Um, in as I walked in this way of doing ministry. And so part of me learning self-care, the catalyst, the real catalyst for that was motherhood. How do I do this without sacrificing my sanity and my self, and still do this call that I have that God has called me to? Um, and to be honest, it took quite some time to find that balance, and I still am. And so I really speak from when I'm saying these things about, you know, get a professional to help you carry the load. Um, do boundaries with yourself. Delegate more things out. I am saying it from a place of experience of going, wow, I really did a lot of sacrificing and stretching myself in ways that were really unhealthy. How would I change that now? What do I do now to make sure I'm a healthier leader and person?

Dwight: Well, so I'm curious on the kind of the other side to that, which is, um, expectations that a congregation may have of a leader. And how do you navigate, you know, either reframing those expectations or making them healthier or disappointing them at a rate people can stand, you know, those kinds of things.

Nicole: Um, I and I think this goes back to my setting boundaries with yourself and doing your own self work. Not only do pastors tend to be folks who want to work on other people's problems, there's also a little bit of a savior complex. Amen. Um, where we want to save people and maybe hard to say no. Um, people pleasing may be the standard, um, in which we have learned how to pastor. That is the most acceptable thing. We want to help everyone. We want to be able to meet everyone's needs. And so for me, what I had to do and what I encouraged many leaders to do is you do have to reframe the congregation's expectations. And then when you reframe it, be sure that someone will be disappointed. I've never had, uh, something happen where I've set a new boundary with a person that's had an expectation of me, including my congregation, where someone was not disappointed. Um, because they want access to you and your yesses the way they want it. And so I think what's helpful is to say to that person or that group or your congregation, here is what this looks like. Um, We have I've delegated this piece out of pastoral care so you can have people to help you and walk with you. I've delegated perhaps a different piece out with, uh, some sort of ministry. Um, so other people will deal with it. And I think one of the ways that you can care for people, because I don't think people should be dismissed and disregarded just because they don't understand the concept of your boundary. I think that's an opportunity to teach, to say, hey, here is why these new boundaries are in place. Here's why we're reframing what this looks like. Because I want to be a healthy leader. And here's what healthy leadership looks like. And I want you all to be healthy as well. And so you I don't think it's good to just go. No, let me reframe it and deal with it, everyone. Um, but to use those moments as teaching opportunities for everyone. But definitely it starts with reframing, being okay with disappointing people, and just knowing that you're doing what's best for you and ultimately your organization.

Alicia: Thank you, Nicole. I yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I really appreciate hearing hearing that. I'm also curious, uh, when you look back and maybe. Right, we can't look back, uh, outside of the the frame of reference that we have today. Um, so it really kind of looking forward in a way as well. Um, but what what would you say, um, is something that you wish someone might have told you, uh, about starting a new ministry, um, earlier on in your ministry journey.

Nicole: I think I would say what I wish someone would have told me. There's only one you. Um. And you have to do your best to take care of you. I think at the end of the day, the congregations we serve are families that we love and serve as well. And even beyond that, beyond ministry, beyond home, whatever our other responsibilities and spaces are where we are invited and even required to show up. It is really imperative that we figure out ways to take care of ourselves, Because once you hit a place of burnout where your mental health, um, emotional health, your physical health and even perhaps relationships, very important relationships, um, get impacted by a lack of boundaries and a lack of healthy, healthy self assessment. Um, we look up and it's too late and we're trying to do work. Um, that we should have been more proactive about in the beginning. And so I think I would say to my younger ministry self, Nicole, there is only one you you can't do everything and you're not supposed to do everything. Take care of you. Um, and the things that bring you life, that fill your cup, um, that keep you passionate about what you're doing. Because only you can control, um, that.

Dwight: So, um, one last question for you as we bring this to a close, and I just, I just want to say, like, what you just shared is so important for our listeners to hear. And those of you who are listening or watching, um, let's sink in. I think those words, uh, and God's blessing over each of you as leaders, there is only one you. You're precious. God has called you into this work and it's so easy to lose sight of that. Um, but one last just question for you, Nicole. So you planted Blue Oaks Church. It had a life cycle. It was a new Christian community that was creative. And its life cycle got, of course, disrupted by Covid and came to an end. And that's that's very normal, I think, for church plants and just for, for congregations for us to think about. What are a couple of key takeaways that you would want to share with our listeners and viewers around that whole journey and that experience?

Nicole: Um, I would say, um, a couple of takeaways is one, normalize endings. Um, endings are okay. Um, endings happen in life. We all have a beginning. We all have an end, right? We look at our lives and we've all had cycles. And I think it's really important to normalize endings and not put too much emphasis on the ending. Meaning sometimes we like to completely define our success according to, um, how far we went versus the fact that we went at all. And I think, um, redefining success to mean faithfulness and not productiveness. I was and don't get me wrong, I was very productive as a leader. And I thought in order to be more successful, I need to be more productive. But really, I just needed to be faithful to the thing that God had called me to do. And so I think the takeaways are let's normalize endings. They're okay. They're healthy. They're supposed to happen. And then two, let's define our success by the fact that we showed up, that we did the work and that we were faithful to the call as we were in it.

Alicia: I love that wisdom, Nicole, and I can't help but think as we're closing, Nicole and I have, uh, we've known each other for. I actually think it's a couple of decades at this point. Nicole, you say how old we we we met when we were, like 16. So just.

S4: Kidding. Exactly, exactly. We don't look it. We don't.

Alicia: Um, but we, we tried a couple of things that were like, you know, we were faithful. We responded. And, you know, they had their own life cycles and, um, and there was nothing wrong with, with how long or short those ministries or those experiments existed. Uh, it was just fun to be faithful together. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights and wisdom with us and our listeners today.

S4: Yes.

Nicole: Thank you all for having me. Thanks again.

Dwight: And to our audience. Thank you for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're watching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Alicia: And finally, the best compliment that you can give us is to share this episode and the Pivot podcast with a friend. Until next time, Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile. We'll see you next week.