When people experience trauma, tragedy, loss, or crisis, they may become more spiritually open than ever before. But how should Christians respond when those opportunities arise?

In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave discuss how to share Christ with hurting people without minimizing their pain or pretending to have all the answers. They explore the importance of listening, asking good questions, showing genuine compassion, and remembering that our job isn't to be the hero—it's to point people to Jesus.

You'll learn why presence should come before preaching, how trauma can expose spiritual needs, common phrases Christians should avoid, and how compassionate questions can open doors to gospel conversations.

One of the things that caught my attention one time sitting at an exchange seminar is Jeff

said this phrase Light somebody else's candle when their candle has gone out.

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I was just sitting in a sheriff's office yesterday, and the guy next to me heard me take a

phone call and refer to myself as a pastor.

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And when I got off the phone call, he looked at me and he said, Did I hear you say pastor?

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I said, Yep.

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He said, Can I talk to you for a second?

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I was there to get fingerprints, but he was there to go to jail.

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And he asked

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to step outside and pray with him.

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And he asked what the Bible says about certain things going on in his life.

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And so the forty minutes I was waiting for the officer to come back for his lunch break,

we were talking.

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And the question is this in this episode, what do you do in those circumstances?

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How do you be a witness

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In the middle of what some people call a traumatic event

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Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast, where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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My name is George Binocca and with me today is Jeff Musgrave, the author and founder of

The Exchange.

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And we're very excited to jump into this episode with all of you.

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Jeff, how you doing?

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I'm doing good.

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Good to see you, George.

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Good to see you too, brother.

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~ you know, Jeff, I think every one of

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like you've been busy boy.

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Yeah, I've been busy.

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it's always busy.

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got that shepherd's heart and you're always taking care of people even when they're not

yours.

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Yeah.

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It's hard.

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You can't it's hard to w ~ justify walking away from those opportunities as a shepherd.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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well I think everybody, every one of us has experienced those moments where life seems to

fall apart.

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Yeah, cancer diagnosis, loved one, divorce, addiction, financial collapse, some tragedy

you never see coming.

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And during those seasons, people often become far more open to spiritual conversations.

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Like that young man sitting there in the sheriff's office.

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And ~ you just all of a sudden you want to talk about God because you're faced with

reality.

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So I just, you know, I wanted to talk with you about, you know, how Christians can

faithfully share Christ with people in the middle of trauma.

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And and I mean, we just start with this.

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Why does trauma open hearts?

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Yeah.

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I you know, suffering doesn't just hurt the outside of us.

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It's not just the circumstances.

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It it it hurts the inside of us.

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And you know, every human wants ~ when when your finger hurts, you wanna you wanna pull

off of the of the fire that's burning it.

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You know, ~ God built humans to to stop pain.

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And so I think a a lot of people recognize I've I've

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I've got internal pain and I've got to figure out how to handle it.

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And I I think spiritual help just makes sense to most people.

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And so that not everybody responds that way.

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Some people respond with anger and frustration.

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~ but the guy that you were talking to just is a perfect example.

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Here's he's in trouble.

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It it it's disappointing him, it's hurting him, and and he's looking for help.

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And he he says, you know, spiritual place is the

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is the first place to start.

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So would you say trauma creates spiritual hunger or simply exposes hunger that was already

there?

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Yeah.

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Well, I I think trauma exposes spiritual need.

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It creates

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spiritual openness.

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So you know that

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is that is hunger, spiritual openness.

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So the need is always there.

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The hunger is not always there.

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And so people always need God.

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God built us to need him.

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~ but but the spiritual trauma.

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or I shouldn't say spiritual trauma, the the life trauma that comes into their life, just

simply helps them to recognize I've got a need and and then that that creates the hunger

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to find an answer.

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Hmm, I love that.

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~ so y you know

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What is happening in a person's heart during a crisis that creates these opportunities for

gospel conversations?

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Yeah.

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Well, you know, I I t made the the statement that everybody has spiritual need.

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God built all of us with with particular soul needs.

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I love the ones that we've identified.

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We call them loneliness, emptiness, fear, love, guilt, but those are only the negative

side.

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I mean, the reality is the reason we say loneliness is because God made the human soul to

be connected.

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To other people.

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And obviously the person that we need the most is him.

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Emptiness.

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Everybody needs a sense of purpose.

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God made humans

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with it with that need, fear.

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God made humans to need security.

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And so when we start seeing these expressions of the need, we're just simply seeing what

God placed in a person's heart.

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He

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He the reason he built those needs is because he literally wants to satisfy all those

needs.

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And ~

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when we leave God out of our lives, our souls literally become needy and sick.

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And ~ and what happens in a a tragedy is that we begin to recognize the the need, the

sickness of our soul.

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And you know, we can try really hard, and I think most people do.

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To drowned out the sounds of the needs of their soul.

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I I actually wonder if some of our necessity for constant entertainment, ~

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you know, s you sit still for two minutes and you're bored.

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and it's it's I think that all of that comes from just a desire to kind of cover up the

the pain that

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Every human experiences in their heart if they don't

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have a living, loving relationship with God.

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I love this idea of lighting somebody else's candle.

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I I don't know

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where the picture came from.

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I can you can I elaborate on what this metaphor means or

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So it the ~ Chris Rice had an old song and I I I learned it a couple of years ago and so

to me it was a new song, but I've been told since that time that it's it's a really old

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song.

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~

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but ~ the ~ the chorus goes, you know, carry your candle, run to the darkness, seek out

the helpless,

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confused and torn, hold out your candle for all to see, take your candle, go light the

world.

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But the verses

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is what really stirs my heart.

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Mm.

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verse one: there's a candle in every soul, some burning brightly, some dark and cold.

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There's a spirit who brings a fire, ignites a candle and make or candle

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and makes his home.

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And that's that's the healthy soul.

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God built that candle to need the fire of the spirit.

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so we're supposed to take our candle and run to the darkness.

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The second stanza is the one that really speaks to me.

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Frustrated

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brother.

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See how he's tried to light his own candle some other way.

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Mm-hmm.

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See now your sister.

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She's been robbed and lied to.

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She still holds her candle without a flame.

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They're just a picture of those people without any hope.

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So then this course really speaks.

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So carry your candle, run to the darkness, seek out the lonely, the w tired, and the worn.

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You know, we George, I'm I'm ashamed of this, but the reality is as humans, we're kind of

like the Pharisees who walked to the other side and the Samaritan went to help ~ the good

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Samaritan story.

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And and we

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tend to ~ avoid the lonely, the tired, the war.

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~ and and God says, no, you you hold out your candle for all to see.

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Take the candle that I've lit.

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I mean, the only reason I'm not sitting having been lied to and robbed and and trying to

light my own candles because the Holy Spirit came and gave me his light.

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So now God calls me to share that light and with the rest

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of the world.

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Mm.

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I love that.

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and I think you're right.

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It we get scared of needy people, but we are all needy people.

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yeah.

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and and no one's asking you to solve everybody's problems.

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And I think actually that's one of the problems.

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Cause I've heard people say this.

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Somebody will say, I'm going through this, this, this, and this.

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And the first event out of the believer's mouth is, ~ I know exactly what you're going

through.

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There can be a pretentious approach to this kind of ministry where it's like, do I have to

pretend to have all the answers?

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Do I have to like always say, I I I I know, I know, I know.

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Like how can we offer hope without pretending to have all the answers?

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Yeah, I I think that there's two two parts there.

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there is a willingness to be humble and to let people know I do have needs too.

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But then the answer is, you know, Jesus is the star of our story.

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I mean, the the the light that's burning in my heart is not there because I figured out

the answers.

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The light in my heart is there because

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Jesus came and lit my light.

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He is the star of my story.

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And he's the one who has all the answers.

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My job is not to figure out how to answer their their problems.

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My answer is let me let me walk beside you myself, be a comfort to you.

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But number two, let me introduce you to the one who has the answers.

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I I have a friend that I'm working with right now, and he's got ans he's got needs way

beyond my capacity.

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I mean, I it's just

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It's almost like, you know, this is out of my league.

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but the fact is that it's not out of Jesus league.

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So my job is to show him I care, spend time with him, and then take him to Jesus.

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Help let's let's look together at what Jesus says about his his particular situation.

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Hmm.

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I I love that.

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I I think one of the things like we all want to do naturally as human beings is when you

see somebody who's down, you kind of want to cheer them up.

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But but there is a distinction between trying to cheer somebody up and bringing them hope.

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What what would you say is the difference between those two things, hope and cheering up?

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Yeah, well cheering up is not a bad event.

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I mean it's it's just temporary.

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I mean the the I I don't know about you, but when someone's trying to cheer me up, I may

smile for a moment in this conversation, but it's not even gonna last the whole

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conversation.

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~

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giving someone hope can literally be life changing.

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And so that that's what we want.

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We want Jesus to enter into their life and and bring a life change.

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there's

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In the book of Hebrews, at the beginning of the chapter of ~ the great what I call Hall of

Faith, Hebrews 11, ~ there's a definition of faith.

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And he says faith is the reality of hope.

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And what

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he's saying is that that hope is the resultant attitude of real, genuine faith.

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So real lasting hope only comes when it's

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Faith, it's it's trusting in a trustworthy source.

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And and so in other words, I can start putting my hope in something that's not gonna help

me.

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It's a false hope and it's not gonna change my life.

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In fact, it might change my life for the worse.

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But it's only when I have my hope in a trustworthy source that that hope is actually gonna

change me.

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And of course, we know the only real trustworthy hope is Jesus.

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Jesus said, I'm the light of the world.

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So if we're gonna try to light someone else's candle, the only way we're ever gonna be

able to do that is by bringing them to Jesus, who is the light of the world, and bring

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Jesus into their life.

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He's the light.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I I love that.

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Making Jesus the star of the story instead of me being the hero.

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sometimes

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sometimes

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we want to be the hero.

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Do you know what I mean?

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It's like

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you know, ~ I can help you.

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I I know the answer to that one.

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And ~

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yeah, we really do kind of like to be the hero sometimes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And tell people how we've made it through stuff and yep.

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I'm guilty I've been guilty of that as a pastor many times.

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You know, I mean getting down to that practical aspect, sometimes, you know, Christians

mean really well, but we actually say stuff that hurts in these situations.

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So in your experience, what what are some common mistakes believers make when when talking

to hurt people and trying to be a witness during that time?

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Yeah, well, I I actually think you you kind of mentioned this earlier.

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I know exactly what you mean.

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And typically we take off with our own story and kind of leave them in the dust.

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And I actually think that I know exactly what you mean statement is meant to try to

identify with them.

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Okay, you're not alone here, you're not the only person that that has had to deal with

this particular issue.

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But ~

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When you're the person who's going through a hurt and someone else

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says, I know exactly what you're talking about, I the the

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thought that goes through the hurt person's mind every single time is, No, you don't.

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And

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and so, you know, that that's a cliche that can really hurt.

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I I I actually think sometimes when we say things like, you know,

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You just need to hang in there and trust the Lord.

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And frankly, what we're doing is we are minimizing their problem and ~ and kind of ~ those

are cliches.

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I mean, it's it's it's wrong because trusting the Lord is a right event to do, but when we

make them in such a glib way, it it it is surfacey.

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It doesn't I mean, really what we've almost said to someone is

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Look, I'm a little busy and I don't have time for your problems.

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So just hang in there, buddy.

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Try trust the Lord and I'm out of here.

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Hmm.

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Yeah, I I I totally have made that mistake and ~ have eaten my words and ha have learned

to say things like, instead of I know what you're going through, I I I have at times said,

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you know, if I were you, I'd be feeling exactly as you are.

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It is totally reasonable.

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You know, it validating instead of, you know, me

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~ judging the situation.

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And and maybe

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even something like I can't imagine what that must feel

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like.

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So that we're we're we're empathizing along with kind of justifying how difficult this is.

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Yeah, I I think that that is a very, very, very well said, perfect way to put it.

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And that's really the heart of the matter is empathizing.

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there are times I think Christians make statements like everything happens for a reason.

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God ha must have needed another angel.

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those are things that are not often helpful.

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why aren't those kind of phrases helpful?

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Well, first

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of all, when when someone dies, they don't become an angel.

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I mean that that's that's

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kind of a that ~ it's it it's it's it's really not even true.

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the fact is that God does allow the things that happen in our lives to have meaning and to

~ work

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together for good.

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but sometimes we implicate God as the as the doer of bad things when that's really not the

the case.

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I think I've told

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you this before.

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~ there was a man who was trying to help somebody who was angry at God.

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And not anything he said was getting through.

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And he says, Okay, you know, I I you you can.

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Think any way you want to, but just just remember this one event.

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God is good.

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It's the devil that's bad.

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And and I I just think sometimes we have to acknowledge there is a real enemy in this

world, that real bad things happen because he is generating them.

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We see that from the story of Job.

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And and frankly,

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they are genuinely facing grief.

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They're genuinely facing anxiety.

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And ~ to to make some sort of glib statement on top of the the pain and the anxiety and

the the hurt that they're currently feeling

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is is just really, really not helpful at all.

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Right.

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Right.

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Yeah, and it's disingenuous.

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I mean it's not the truth and people need the Bible.

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They need the truth.

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Not our opinions, you know, yep, not a

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sometimes

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these glib statements w that may not even be our opinion.

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They they may just be something

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we heard somewhere and and said it again and ~

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yeah.

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Not not everything that's said to us should we repeat, but ~ you know, nah I mean so I

mean ba kind of playing off of that, so then what how can we speak biblical truth without

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sounding insensitive?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I I I think the very first answer to that is be sensitive.

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you know, telling someone the truth doesn't mean that we don't hurt with them, that I

mean, I don't know whether you're this way, George, ~ but sometimes I can enter into a

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situation and I'm not emoting.

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I mean, they're the ones

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that are going through the problem.

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They're the ones that that are

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feeling the hurt.

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I mean, I just came in off the street.

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I've I haven't felt any of that.

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But when I get in the room and I feel their hurt, that emotes me.

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I mean that the my emotions immediately start going.

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And I think if

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we will just slow down for a moment and genuinely see the raw pain and and the hurt that

people are going through and ~

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And recognize this is someone who needs a gentle, kind, compassionate hand here.

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~ I I I can't come in and just spout off answers.

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I this is

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a so number one, be sensitive.

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and then number

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two, listen.

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It i you you the very best way to figure out how to help someone is to get them to voice.

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their need.

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And

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and if we listen long enough, if we ask the right kind of sensitive, caring questions,

then eventually they're gonna voice those needs.

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It's gonna be a lot easier for us to, and then the third event, speak that truth into

their heart.

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So it it

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is truth is what sets people free.

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But the Bible uses this phrase that is critical, and that is speak the truth in love.

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And it's one is not opposite of the other.

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They are the the reason we speak the truth is because we love and and so we we can do that

in a way that is not insensitive, that is genuinely helpful.

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Hmm.

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So so I love delivering truth to people and I've been guilty at times though of getting so

excited about the truth that I start giving them a sermon instead of being just there,

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being a friend.

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what do they need first?

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You know, what order do these

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come in?

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Yeah.

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I I y you've probably done this before, but I I've been walking out the the door to go to

the hospital or go to I I remember getting a call and parents found their

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young their their child.

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It wasn't a y it wasn't a young child, it was a middle aged child, having ~ ended his own

life.

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And you know, you're you're walking into these circumstances and Anna will say, What are

you gonna tell them?

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And ~ my answer is always I have no idea.

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All I know is they need me and I have to be there.

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And I I think

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~ y you wrote this down.

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I love this phrase, presence before preaching.

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I mean, what they need is is you.

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They need someone who loves, someone who cares, someone who's willing.

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I mean, the reason that you and I cannot can go through the valley of the shadow of death

and not fear evil is because Jesus is with us.

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And ~

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What what people need in a moment like that is someone to be with them.

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you know, the ~ the Bible makes it very clear, be quick to hear, slow to speak.

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And so d if we just that's by the way, that's James chapter one, verse 19.

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that's one of those verses we need to etch into ~ our memory banks and keep it forefront

in our thoughts.

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slow

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to speak, quick to hear.

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it's yeah, that's so important.

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I think

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Sermons are valuable, but even in those moments, ~ most of the time, most of the sermon

they've already heard through life's circumstances.

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You know, what

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what they need first is someone to love them and then maybe

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just nudge them in the right direction.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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~ listening, y you can't minimize the importance of listening or the power of listening.

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Just your presence is is a big deal.

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~ and I've kinda wondered, and and maybe you can give me your thoughts on this, I've seen

that showing up has been so powerful in ministry.

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And the idea that a pastor sits inside a study all day and just

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studies, the idea that a Christian goes through their whole life just in their own family,

ministering to their own family, going to church, coming back, and doesn't show up at

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things is not a great idea.

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So why is it important to show up?

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How important is it to show up?

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Yeah.

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Well, I think ~ let's just look at Jesus' example.

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when

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Jesus knew, I mean, he told his disciples, we're gonna go see Mary and Martha, and their

brother is dead.

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And so when Mary and Martha come and tell him, Lord, our brother's dead.

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You if you'd been here, it'd been different.

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it I mean he already knew.

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I mean, there was nothing that Jesus didn't know.

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But but even Jesus didn't try to fix their problem right away.

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What Jesus did is he went to them and wept over.

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with them.

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And I think what a beautiful example of helping us to recognize, yeah, Jesus did help

them.

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And in fact, he resurrected Lazarus.

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He fixed their problem.

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he's the ultimate fixer.

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But but he he stopped and waited and wept with them first.

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I mean you you think about the woman at the Samaritan or the the Samaritan woman at the at

the well when Jesus went

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I mean he knew what her need was.

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~ he the very fact that he said, Go get your husband and and

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Hmm.

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then tells her, Yeah, I know you're not married.

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You the guy you're living with i is is not your husband, but you've had five husbands.

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I mean, th he knew all of that, but he didn't start there.

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What he started there with was asking a woman that he was not supposed to have any contact

with culturally, not morally, culturally.

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And he says to her, Could you do me a favor?

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Could could you help me out here?

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I mean, literally what he was doing by asking her for that was just showing him her, you

know, you are a you are a person who is worth something, and you you are not the outcast

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you see yourself as.

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And what what a kindness Jesus did for her in just asking for a little favor.

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So I I f I feel like

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Jesus pa paints the picture for us so beautifully.

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And we could look at multiple more examples of that.

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But I it he helps us to recognize this is this it's caring.

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It's about being there, it's about listening to people.

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and and yes, Jesus met both of those women's needs, but first he showed he cared.

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So in trying to listen like Jesus and also head towards open gospel doors, how does asking

good questions lead to that?

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I mean, because that's that's our desire as Christians is to share this good news.

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So does asking good questions, I mean, how how on earth does the do those two things

connect?

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Yeah, well I I think the very first event is we should define what a good question is.

396

a good question is on point.

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I mean what when I don't know what you do, but when I go to s visit someone in the

hospital, first event I do is ask them, so what are the doctors saying now?

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And letting them tell me about the circumstances that are going on, when when

399

There it's every single time you see a traumatic event, there's stuff you don't know about

it yet.

400

And if you can just be genuinely compassionate and asking questions that are on point, and

then a question, a good question is always going to show genuine interest and concern.

401

And and I think those two words are really important.

402

I have to be interested in the space.

403

in the trouble they're going through, does does that make sense?

404

Because most people aren't.

405

And they

406

the this person is going through a trial, going through a difficulty, and most people

don't know about it and and those who do don't care about it.

407

And I mean that's the way they feel.

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And so if I can show genuine interest and then in doing so show them genuine concern.

409

~ a another

410

event that I think helps in terms of you were asking, you know, so how

411

What's the connection between good questions and and the gospel?

412

Mm.

413

if if I can find the soul need in a person's life.

414

So if

415

I'm asking them about what's going on, what's a doctor saying, you know, what what

happened here in this ~ accident scene, you know, what whatever I'm asking about, whatever

416

traumatic events

417

someone's going through, if I'm asking enough questions about that.

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Then eventually I can just look at them and say, So let me ask you, how how are you

handling all this?

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And ~ it doesn't

420

I mean, in in a moment like that, when a person is seeing that you care and that you're

entering their pain with them, ~ it doesn't

421

take long to go from here's what we're talking about in terms of the hurt and and here's

how I'm dealing with it.

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I'm s I'm I'm really suffering here.

423

I'm struggling.

424

And so th those questions, if

425

If we start on point, we show genuine concern, eventually are going to get down to those

soul needs.

426

And from the soul need, it's pretty easy to take it to Jesus.

427

Yes.

428

Yeah, 'cause it exposes that part of God's character they are handling an unbelief.

429

And then you know, okay, that's not true about Jesus.

430

Can I you know, can I tell you something?

431

Yeah, you had a bunch of questions that I thought were really valuable.

432

Why don't you why don't you bring those

433

out?

434

Yeah.

435

~ you know, hey, how y how are you really doing?

436

~ what

437

right there, when I read it, I thought, I've seen that one before.

438

You know, ~

439

Anna led someone to the Lord and it started with that question.

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She it was

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it was a y y you know, sometimes people are a little surfacey with us and they say,

442

you know, I'm I'm I'm doing okay.

443

And then when you look in their eyes and you say, No, how you really doing?

444

And yeah, it it's amazing what people say to you after that moment.

445

So that's that's really good.

446

What else you got?

447

Well, and I love the way you put it earlier.

448

You're jumping into their into their hardship.

449

So asking questions like, what's been the hardest part?

450

What did the doctor say?

451

how has this changed the way you think about God?

452

What's been hopeful to you?

453

What's given you hope?

454

you know, you're ask you you're digging in.

455

Yeah.

456

are valuable because what you're doing, George, is you you're assuming this person is is

thinking right.

457

You're you know, sometimes we walk into a circumstance and you know, you you are really

messed up here, man.

458

Let me fix you.

459

And and and what you're doing is you're assuming that these people are are thinking right

and you're just

460

getting to that point of the conversation.

461

So I I think

462

that's really ~ extremely wise on your

463

Mm.

464

Well, you run the risk of preaching to the choir, you know, and nobody likes it.

465

It's awkward and embarrassing, but ~ it it's asking about the circumstances, several

follow-up questions, both to understand situation, show care.

466

Really important not to assume anything in these circumstances.

467

And ~ and then you can move on to questions about okay, hey, so how are you dealing with

this?

468

How how does it make you feel?

469

What are the thoughts going in your head?

470

What's your headspace like right now?

471

~

472

are you having trouble sleeping?

473

what are you worried about in particular?

474

Is it money?

475

Is it this?

476

Is it that?

477

You really start to dig in and really see a clear picture before you start speaking.

478

Yeah.

479

Yeah.

480

Good.

481

That's real good.

482

Yeah.

483

Well, that takes us to almost exactly thirty minutes, which means it's gonna take two

episodes to finish this conversation.

484

But I think this is a very powerful one.

485

Jeff, you've been a pastor for more than thirty years and you know, you've y you're still

shepherding.

486

I mean you're shepherding at Calvary and you're doing stuff ~ over there while you're

doing all this full time.

487

And so I think there's lots more just nuggets of wisdom

488

And truth and just some beautiful, beautiful principles that we can apply to our lives as

believers.

489

Because some of the best opportunities to share the gospel is when people are just in a

tough situation, staring the reality of life and death in the face.

490

That will really sober somebody up just like that, you know?

491

And so, ~ so we'll continue this next week.

492

For those of you that have been listening, thank you so much.

493

~ thank you for supporting the podcast, ~ your donations.

494

subscribing, following, sharing this.

495

It's what makes gospel talks gospel talks because we don't really spend any money

promoting it.

496

~ we pray that you pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send

forth laborers because guys there is not a harvest problem.

497

But there are a bunch of people not willing to do the work.

498

And ~ we need more people that want to work.

499

on this and make it their life's work, no matter what their vocation is, what their

training is, whatever.

500

It's not that hard.

501

It's simple stuff.

502

So we love you guys.

503

We are praying for you.

504

And we will see you next week.