It's new year new you time...hybrid pub style. We interview Emily Han of Lyrical Editing, a freelance developmental editor who has worked on mind, body, spirit books for traditional publishers as well as independent authors. We also talk about our bookish goals for 2019 and muse about Murakami, time management, and psychedelics.

I'm looking for a husband so I can get promoted to

a partner at this law firm. You need to help me find a husband,

because you're a headhunter, and also you have to teach me in the

ways of love so I don't disappoint this man.

Oh, my God,

hilarious.

I don't know it's just,

it's a thing that I didn't know existed. Yeah, I didn't know it

existed till this very moment. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I gotta get

back to the Obelisk Gate. Yeah.

You're being natural. Remember,

you,

singer, I'm a singer, a song.

Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout podcast with me. Emily einlander

and me. Karen kalasky, hello.

We are mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing indeed, and today, we have a freelance editor, Emily

Han with us, who created an independent editorial business

called lyrical edit editing here in Portland, Oregon. Hi.

Thanks for coming. Yeah, thank you for inviting me.

Alright, well, we're going to start off talking a little bit

today about this is our New Year's episode. We're ringing in

2019

Yeah? By the time you listen to this, it will actually be 2019

right? Now we're

doing some time travel. Yeah, right, right, exactly. Yes, yes.

Messes with me a lot, I know, because I'm like, What day is

this coming? Wait, no, I can't talk about this because it's too

far in the make me sound old and confused. Oh, God, not old, no.

But, like, dated, yeah, yeah. Like, did you? Did y'all hear

about that guy who I don't

know was? No, don't know coffee fee.

That was so last, yeah, yeah, it was, yeah.

I think we all know what you mean, though, yeah, yeah, yeah,

it's the holidays right now, right? And nobody gives a shit.

And everything hurts. Everything. Everything hurts. I

woke up this morning and it was like that Rick and Morty thing,

where the sun's coming up screaming,

and do I really have to go to work? And I'm like, I have a

podcast tonight. I can't, like, do a podcast and not have gone

to work before, because like that, just, yeah, can you

imagine, like,

moping around all day and then being like, oh, people are

coming to my house. I mean, I guess yes. But on the other

hand, it's like, I want to be able to

be in a frantic hurry to put things together before people

come to my house. You love being frantic. Yeah, true. It's one of

my favorites. It is. There's at least one drama per week that

Karina has to talk me down from, and that one was today. I was

today. It was today. But we're not going to talk about it,

because I've already gotten attention from things that I

tweeted

that made me nervous about my job. I

don't want to know about it. I'll tell you about it later.

Actually, I can just cut it. I'll tell you about

it, right? Yeah, I they put me in charge of doing all the

Ingram entries,

and I was tweeting about how Ingram's system is, like, whack

a mole, yeah. And they tweeted back to me, and then they

responded, yeah, yeah. And then Ingram's, our Ingram rep,

emailed me, and was like, I heard that you had a Twitter

conversation. And I was like, wow,

there

really are, yeah. So that was one thing last two weeks ago

that I was panicking about and talking to Corrine about she's

like, it's fine, yeah, don't worry. Okay, it's all right. At

the end of the world, it's just publishing, and it always ends

with me going, I'm going to get fired. I know, and that's why I

started a podcast about getting fired all the

time. Okay, so resolutions about reading about our careers. What

are we doing? I mean, you can talk about whatever revolution I

would like, the revolution of people not being shitty, yeah?

That would be a big plus. That would be huge. Yeah. Would be

Yeah, yeah. I'm with you on that. Or homeless, yeah? I mean.

Get shitty to be homeless, it is, I assume. So, yeah, right.

Let's not open that camera, because I got a lot to say.

This isn't Chapo trap house.

Well, I can start with my book resolutions, if you want. I

would love for you to do that. It's been a long journey. It

certainly has as regular and Emily, you don't know this, but

as our regular listeners know, I had trouble reading books this

past year, like, I just was not interested for some reason. And

I don't even think it was because, like, I, you know, do

that for a job. I just think I was just like, oh Netflix, or oh

Hulu, or like, everything just seemed more appealing than like

sitting down reading a book. So but last month, the book came

out that I was very excited to read. So I feel like I'm in my

back, like in the swing of things. So right now I'm reading

a book about Jim Jones and Jonestown, which is a great

holiday book. Yeah. What's it called? It's great. It's called

the road to Jonestown by Jeff Gwynn. It's really good. I'm

only about 150

pages in. I think it's like 450 pages. So I got a long, like Way

to go, but so far it's really good. So anyway, I bought it

from because we're gonna, we're gonna talk, we're gonna read it

together, yeah, yeah. I bought it from Powell's, all right, not

from Amazon, yeah, yeah, you'll be proud of me. I'm very proud.

I'm very excited to read it alongside of you. Oh, good,

yeah, me too. Yeah. Be great. We can. I mean, I already know that

Jim Jones tried to sell Spider Man. No, he successfully sold.

He was a good salesman, yeah, yeah.

He could sell you anything he really, truly could. So, yeah,

yeah, but I'm a page turner. Yeah, it is that. It is that,

yeah, anyway, but yeah. So my book resolution for next year is

to read a book a month, which I feel like is the measurable.

Like, I think that's a reasonable especially if you're,

yeah, yeah, especially if you're reading 400 page book, yeah,

that's, that's okay. I think I can handle I think this will be

the longest book that I read for a while, but I still think

that's, how do you know we might unleash the beast? Maybe. And

you're like, I'm going to read Anna, Karenina, maybe, maybe I

don't know it's actually a pretty good book. Is I never

finished it? Yeah, it was one of those books that I read in high

school to make people think I was smart, but then I actually

liked it. Uh huh, too. Yeah. Phase, yeah. Oh, have you read

um, I mean, it feels silly to ask this, because it's like, oh,

have you read this? Like, 100 year old

Crime and Punishment is my favorite Russian one? Yes. Is

that Dostoevsky? Yeah, it's the murder one. So

I need to read that, yeah?

But it seemed daunting, yeah. Basically like him just

murdering somebody and then shivering a lot, and some

policemen following him around, waiting for him to break. Oh,

I'm like, why don't you just look at the evidence?

Like, no, apparently, that's not how it works in Russia, back in

the day, you gotta, like, make the people admit to stuff. Oh, I

see, wow. Okay, much as I could gather from it, yeah, yeah.

Okay. So do you have any, like,

you know, I, I still, I just, I read a lot still, yeah, all the

time. But I let my, I

don't know, my intuition kind of lead the way. Sure, find the

books and

so I don't have a commitment of how many books I want to read. I

just want to keep reading books. Yeah, obviously, yeah. But maybe

just widen my range, you know, there's, there are certain books

I haven't, you know, authors or people I haven't you know,

really let myself get into, you know, and there's classics, both

old and new books, yeah, crime, punishment, Don Quixote, I don't

know, maybe that far, yeah, so that's something I like to just

keep opening up my my, my Mind, yeah, ideas, yeah? So that's for

that, but I think for New Year's resolution, I mean, I have

career goals more in just keeping, keeping things going,

Yeah, editing and and, and really learning to work. If more

independent authors too, I'm sure we'll be talking, oh, I

would love to, yeah, but that's, you know, it's a new, it's a

whole new world for me, you know, kind of becoming

independent myself. So, yeah, okay, this is gonna be a good

interview. Oh, but I have to talk about mine first. Okay, so

I want to finish the

NK Jemisin, oh yeah, trilogy. So the next one's the obelisk.

Okay, I know she has more than just that one, yeah, but the

fifth season the Obelisk Gate. And I forgot the name of the

overarching series. I also don't know

what I'm talking about. I know the author, but yeah, they all

won Hugo Award, yeah. And so I was trying to get into fantasy.

I thought

being out of.

Fantasy reader? Oh, no, really? I mean, but a month or two ago,

I was trying to figure out how to make Korean

read again.

And so I was like, maybe if I choose a book that's like, weird

and different from what she because she likes to read

literary fiction about sad people, sure. I mean, this is

about, right? This is fantasy, literary fiction about sad

people, which I didn't realize, but

I was really into it. It was the sort of thing where, I don't

know if I said this on the podcast before, but I finished

the fifth season, and just like, burst into tears. And it was

like Saturday morning, and JT and I were about to go out, and

I was just crying and pacing around the room, and he was

like, What? What happened? And I'm like, you wouldn't get it if

I because there's this lady and she can make earthquakes. And

he's like, Oh,

wow, yeah, yeah. But then again, he likes reading, like, Roxane,

gay and stuff like, you like reading things that make you

cry, yeah, yeah. So when I finish that, I would like to

kind of widen my what I listen to on audio book, because I've

been listening to a lot of like, self help kind of stuff, because

I find it easier to like listen to without getting bored, yeah?

But what I would like to do instead is listen to thrillers.

Oh, because that's the one other, that's the fictional

thing that I found is really interesting, yes, fun. Yeah,

suspend. I mean, they work, yeah, right, to the whole mood

of it, yeah, yeah. And then your house gets really clean, yeah.

I listen to the woman in the window this year, which is a

really good one. It's, you know, it's the like, hubbub, yes,

Buzzy around or whatever, yeah. And then I listened to a couple

weeks ago, I listened to sometimes I lie, okay, which is

really good, and is actually set around this time of year. Oh,

perfect. Christmas or not, horror thriller, it's all kind

of within the same umbrella for me, yeah? So that's what I would

like to do, okay? And especially because I kind of want to write

a thriller, and so I have to, like, get that from somewhere.

So it might as well be on my like, 15 minute break where I

walk around the trail, right? Yeah, I like. I've been also

trying some new audio books too. I have, yeah, it's fun. Yeah,

some good now, especially if this the narrator, sure,

sometimes the author does it, and that could be, yeah, good

voice for it. Oh, totally. Especially if it's a memoir,

yes, yeah. I listened to the Amy Schumer one, and she was

awesome. Yeah, we're being really good at that. Yeah, yeah.

It's always good when they read their own Yeah, yeah. I started

the Parker Posey one. She's a little more winsome than I

expected. I expected a little more like, silliness, yeah? And

it's kind of silly, but it's kind of just like, she's trying

to be, like, right, pretty,

which is fine, but yeah, I mean, well, she doesn't act pretty,

like that shit, you know, yeah, exactly. She writes. She writes

kind of glamorous. But to be fair, I haven't gotten into the,

like, meaty part of her career yet. Okay, yeah, you're still at

her childhood. You said, right, yeah, I just out of her

childhood a little bit. But the beginning, like, Intro chapter,

yeah, it's called, you're on an airplane, and they did, like,

sound effect

of it like, because it's supposed to be like, you're

sitting next to this, like, older, like, sort of finished.

Like, she makes herself sound finished, like, indie movie

star, okay, okay, yeah. It's like you can hear her, like,

with her dog, yeah, snoring,

like the ice and her glass clinking and stuff. So it's

like, cute, yeah, but we'll see, huh? Thriller. Okay, all right.

Well, I'm proud of all of us for having goals. Me too. Oh,

professional goals. I've started editing indie, self published

books, so we'll see how that goes.

So far, it's been fun, yeah, but I've got like two coming up. Oh,

great. So yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's cool. I like

sleeping, though, yeah, well, sleeping is pretty great. Emily,

like, we're about to talk with you about, like, we'll, we'll

start more formally into your interview. But I would just like

to know how many books you have going at a time. Usually,

that's hard to say. I mean, it's, you know,

this is my third year as a freelancer, so I'm still really

learning to

there's no normal or I can expect, you know, I'm still kind

of building my clientele and

kind of getting the word out, so sometimes there's lulls. Yeah.

And sometimes there's two to three projects just come in. So

I can't really answer that. Okay, the same. But right now

it's, it's about saying yes, then yeah, then saying no,

projects, yeah, you know as I just kind of build again, just

building my experience, building my base, yeah, as a freelancer,

yeah, exciting time of growth, right? Yeah, right, yeah. Well,

let's get into this then. So tell us what kind of editing you

actually do. Well, I'm a developmental editor, and so

that's still what I do as a freelancer, but lyrical editing

offers copy editing and proofreading, and I also do

manuscript evaluations and book proposal. But development

editing is my, my, my area of expertise and

and I love doing it. So can we, can you get into a little bit,

just for people who are listening who don't quite

understand what that means. Can you, like, talk about what

developmental editing entails? Sure, so development editing is

usually the first stage of editing. You know, when, when

the author has

done whatever he or she can do, you know, finished, complete.

You know, written the manuscript. They've gone through

their rounds of their own edits of it and their drafts, and now

they're ready to have a professional pair of eyes, you

know, look at it and evaluate it. So usually development Ed is

the first phase, because we're really looking at those bigger

issues of organization, book, structure,

you know, tone, style and messaging. You know, I

specialize in nonfiction. So this is going to be a little

different than probably fiction.

So fiction, so I have to speak to nonfiction, yes, right? And

so nonfiction, you know, especially in the genre of body,

mind, spirit or personal growth, you know, we're really looking

at how the message, you know, the takeaway for the reader is

really laid out, yeah. And so the development editor is really

looking at, is the is the structure? Sound? Is it solid,

you know, is the groundwork there? And how is that author

relaying the teaching or the message or the or the narrative,

you know, that can be woven in? It's the most intimate phase, I

think, of editing. I always call it. It's very intimate, because

the development editor is really working hands on with the

author, right? And, and it takes a lot of

restructuring, sometimes rewriting,

cutting out stuff, putting in new things, you know. So it can

be, you know, it can be from heavy to light. You're breaking

some hearts there. Yeah, it can be a little, you know, it can

be, you know, it's a lot of trust and needs to be built

around it. But yeah, it can be a little difficult. You know, I

won't say it's always easy.

Some authors are more willing to let go, right and open up to the

process. Yeah, and you just have to work through it. You have

some, like, good persuasive techniques for people who don't

want to cut their stuff out. Well, I do approach it with

compassion.

I try to be gentle, but that doesn't mean I'm also not I'm

not honest, and I being honest. You do have to be

confident in yourself, in the sense that what you look at and

what you're recommending as an as an edit, you do need to have

the confidence and to be honest, but you do want to be

compassionate and mindful that this is the author's baby. You

know, this is right, this is their heart and soul. And you

don't want to you

want to honor it. You want to show that. And I think if you

can just show that and get that across. So come and meet you

halfway, yes, you know, and kind of hear your side of the story

and like, why this needs to happen, right, right? And I feel

like too, I do.

I want to hear what the author has to say. If they disagree, we

work it out. I I never feel like that. What I say is absolutely

right, right? But it's an, it's a suggestion, and then maybe it

opens up to further conversation. So that encourages

humility on all sides. Yes, exactly, exactly. You have to

put our egos yes aside, right? Yes, I exactly. And then come to

it as a as creative individuals, because creative process means

that we need to, I feel, you know, you want to invite being

open minded. Do you find you have a lot of stalemates when

you're doing stuff like that, like where you really think

something should happen and they just won't do it? Yes, yeah, it

does happen. Then you just have to let it go. Yeah? You know,

you have to let it go. I think that's one thing with.

Sometimes working one on one with an author who may be doing

it on their own, sure, you know, and going to self publishing

routes, versus, if I'm working on the behalf of a publisher,

you know, I'm then in service of the publisher, right, right? You

know. And the publisher has their expectations when you're

working of just the author, you know, you just, you're working

with the author and what they want. So, you know, it's, it's,

it's kind of finding the right balance between, obviously, you

want your client to be happy, yeah, right, have a positive

experience, but at the same time you want to offer your best

work. So you know, it's kind of finding the right, striking the

right balance, and each person, each author, will be unique,

each project will be unique. Yeah, sounds like a balancing

act. It is. So, all right, so what was the path that led you

to be there? There's so many different kinds of editing. You

know, there's copy editing and proofreading and like, Well, you

say you do manuscript evaluation as well. Like, what led you to

your particular path in editing? Well, it started well, I was,

prior to my freelance gig, I was an acquisitions editor for

beyond words, publishing

based in Hillsboro, Oregon, and

as an acquisitions editor there for adult titles, it was under

our responsibility to be a development editor as well of

the projects. So I that's kind of where I then learned. I mean,

I basically was mentored and had an apprenticeship, I would say,

at beyond words, under Cynthia Black, who was the co founder

and president of beyond words.

And so being mentored by her, I then learned to be an

acquisitions editor and then to become a developmental editor as

well, because we, we had to wear, you know, it's a smaller

publishing company, so we wear different hats, right? And we

led that phase of the process. So that's kind of where I that's

where I learned, learn my skills and so, and I just had a natural

knack, I mean, if I say so, myself, an

affinity with developmental editing. I felt I'm a big

picture, right? Yeah, right. And so I could kind of

learn. I used my could use my own kind of sense of not, you

know, from reading these types of books as well, but also kind

of my into my intuitive sense, yes, yes. I could kind of put

that all into work. So development to editing just kind

of came very natural for me, but also learning it on the job, and

then working on projects right, working of authors, you know,

kind of just increased my abilities and my talent with

that. Yeah, would you say that it requires a lot of like,

empathy to be able to be a good development? Yeah? Empathy, and,

as I said, compassion, because you really need to put yourself,

you know, I respect the author incredibly because, you know,

they're, they're putting their, yeah, their story out there

absolutely, and I may not necessarily always agree, or,

you know, think you know exactly, you know, again, we may

have our differences, but it is something that we you know, it's

an emotional journey for the author. And you know you want to

be empathetic. You want to be able to

put yourself there, right? Yeah, so how do you how do you set

boundaries and protect yourself in that case, since empathy

takes a lot out of you, I mean, speaking as someone who has had

those experiences of like, trying to work through people's

stories with them, not nearly as much as you. But like, I find

that it can be draining sometimes. So like, how do you

take care of yourself? Yeah, it can be draining. I think just

taking

well now that I freelance, I can really control my schedule, so

that gives me a lot more freedom to say, Okay, now I need to step

away from, right, from this, this project, if I'm in the

midst, because you do, you get so

you get so deep into the content. And especially as a

development editor, you really, you're looking at many different

things, many layers at once. And so now I just, I need to find I

go for a walk. I step outside. I have to move usually, you know,

because you're sitting, usually at a chair in front of, you

know, your screen, and you need to just kind of get back into

your body. And that's usually what I find. Is a great remedy,

is to move around, to go for a walk, go out.

Out, get some fresh air,

you know,

just take some moments to kind of just decompress, yeah, not

for sure. Well, yeah, yeah. Sometimes, you know, just talk

to somebody,

someone who isn't a client. So,

what is a normal? What is a normal week slash day slash

month look like, since you set your own schedule to a degree,

but you also have to meet deadlines. Luckily, we do have

deadlines, because that makes a big difference. Yeah, otherwise

kids could just drag right, right? So it gives us some

order. Yeah? For sure thing

again, because as a freelancer, I don't have, you know, it's not

a nine to five kind of deal, but I do keep, you know, daytime

hours, because I have a nine year old, right? And so as a

mom, too, I I'm, I'm always keeping my schedule open and

flexible, because I have to, you know, pick up my son for sure,

you know, right? Oh, and things like that. So, so normal days,

it's hard to say, you know, I'm, I work on weekends, I work in

evenings. I just kind of find, I find the time. But I'm, I've

learned yet, you know, as a freelancer, you do have to be

really good about your time, and you really have to have good

time management, yeah, and, and I'm not a natural

procrastinator. I like to feel that's a great

I do because I know I don't work well under stress, yeah, or

feeling overwhelmed. So I need to be preventative, yeah, yeah.

So I, you know, so I just try to, I really, you know, I keep a

calendar, and I'm really careful about my time, but, you know, I

try to keep general hours, yeah, right, at the same time again,

I'm flexible, because that's the beauty of being a freelancer,

and I'm going to take advantage of that. Do you find that, do

you end up setting deadlines for your clients, and do you find

that works or doesn't work? Or, like, how does that work with

someone else's schedule and your schedule trying to work

together? Yeah. I mean, usually I, when I take on a project, I'm

going to do the development to edit, I take the initiative and

propose the schedule first,

you know, we have a conversation about timeline and what they

like to achieve. You know, they have a certain due date in mind,

and then we kind of go from there. But I, I set the

schedule. Usually I propose a schedule, and then we, we work

it out. But usually the clients, you know, are pretty good, yeah,

they're open, yeah, because they they're happy that someone's

scheduling

it. Think about it, yeah, I kind of lay it all out when I give my

whole plan, you know, my whole plan of what we're going to do.

Here's the schedule, and I think it's a relief. Yeah, that

totally makes sense. I love structure. Yes, I do provide

structure.

So have you worked with any authors who are not part of the

traditional publishing plan, who are more independent or self

published, or

whatever, something that that is unusual for you. Since you've

become a freelancer,

I have worked with a few independent authors who have

chosen to Self Publish. I mean, majority of my clients still

with I freelance with publishers so but with the direct

relationship with an author, you know, it's been interesting I

have, and

it's a different experience, and I'm still learning to kind of

navigate through that, because

it's, it's

kind of more of a loose, sure experience, you know, there's,

there's less structure, right? Because with a publisher, you

know, okay, you got the expectations, yeah, deadline,

because, you know, publication day and all these things,

there's a whole kind of process to follow. But with working with

an author, one on one, I've had to learn. I struggled, I have to

admit, in the beginning, to go, how do I do this? Yeah, how, how

do I create the structure and the process behind it? And it's

kind of been a learning process for me,

and and I've also found that, you know, because it's looser,

I'm having to go, Okay, I need to be more hands off, actually,

and that's a little strange, yeah, it's like less control.

And so that's kind of, I'm learning, to kind of find the

right balance. Yeah, that way. Because sometimes I want to go,

wait. No, we should be doing this and this and this. But the

authors, you know, they may want just really a light edit. They

just kind.

Know, you know you have to really work with them, because

sometimes the authors don't really know what they want to

that's the other thing I have found in my experience. You

know, when you're working with a publisher, the publisher knows

why they acquired this project, and you know what they want from

it, right? But when you sometimes work with an author

who's self publishing, especially if it's the first

time, they're still unsure, no, I wrote this, man, I wrote this

book, but I'm not really sure what it needs. And so it's kind

of then up to you to go in and go, Okay, let me,

let me figure it out, right? Let's start looking at it

together. And then you kind of have to coach them a little bit

and guide them right through the process. And are these mostly

first time authors I have, yeah, there's been actually a mix a

couple first time, you know, a couple you know, who have done

on their own self publish, and they just maybe sell it as on

the off their website. You know, maybe they're a life coach, or

I've worked with a

personal trainer, and she had, like, a fitness book and

but most of the times, they're their majority, I think they've

been first time authors, so they really don't know the process,

yeah, yeah. Or they've heard, you know, researched it online,

and have different stories about it, but they're not really sure.

Does it get a little WebMD there exactly? They're like, well, I

read this

like, well, sorry to say, right, right. Not quite like, my

book has this disease that no one has heard of, sure of it.

Like, no, it's fine, yeah, but they're just, they're just a

lot, I mean, it's true, just, so maybe they're more relaxed about

it, yeah, don't have maybe the highest, the highest standards

about well, it really needs to be fact checked, right? They

feel pretty empowered. Yeah, they feel because I'm writing it

and it's okay, I'm just gonna put it out there and see what

happens. Yeah, okay, yeah, you can now, you can now do, right,

which is amazing. I mean, I, I mean, I'm a big fan of it. I'm

not. It's just learning to kind of figure, at least from my end

of it, how to,

how to kind of create the right process, right? But most of the

books that you've been doing are from traditional, yeah,

publishers. And so the the publisher will contact you and

say, we have this book. And, right, yeah, so they'll contact

me and let me know that there's a project, and if I'm

interested, and tell me about it. And

you know, and then from there, I'll look at the manuscript.

Even with

an independent author, I always ask for the manuscript, or at

least sample chapters, because it's important to know if you're

the right fit yeah to project, I don't ever assume that, oh yeah.

I'll just take it yeah and not know I, you know, I may not. I

mean, as an editor, you feel like, okay, you should be able

to objectively Right, right on any project, onto any topic. But

I don't believe that's necessary true. I mean, it's true to some

degree, but I feel like I still need to feel some connection to

it, yeah? And maybe, maybe it's different if you're doing copy

editing, right? Yeah, development, that you're just so

immersed in it and such a you just you delve deeply into the

content that you kind of have to feel like you you get you at

least have some experience in it. Or the topic

also fascinates you in some way. Or you have to find something

that pulls you in, sure that you're not completely bored by

No, exactly, right? Maybe it's the author. Maybe you have a

conversation of the author, or you learn about the author and

you're like, wow, that's, you know, he, she's, you know, doing

something really amazing, and I want to be a part of that, yeah.

But for me, I do need to feel some kind of personal

connection. Yeah? For me, is something that, then when I feel

that, I go, Okay, I think I can do this. If I don't feel that, I

I'm hesitant, yeah, it totally makes sense, absolutely, yeah.

If you're going to be working so intimately with somebody, it's

right, then I think you offer your best work too. Yeah. I

mean, not everybody resonates with a book about like, knives.

Yeah, that's true.

I've been waiting for this book my whole life. Yeah, can I ask a

question really quickly? Oh, of course,

would you consider editing fiction? Have you edited fiction

in the past?

No, you know, I have, not. I have. I'm interested. I just

haven't had the opportunity. You know, I've, I've definitely kind

of carved myself, yeah, sure, in this niche, yeah, yeah, sure,

and this market. And once you do, it's kind of hard.

Sometimes,

you know, I've the closest I've ever done anything. It's maybe

more like a memoir, inspirational, more memoir ish,

which could be a little fiction, nonfiction, depending, you know.

A million He's author,

but yeah, I I just think I'd have to be learning a whole new

right, a whole new kind of way of editing, and that would be

exciting. Yeah? Maybe that's a New Year's resolution.

You're welcome. Is that? Yeah? Thank you, because I have

thought about it. Yeah? You know, the question has come up,

just the opportunity hasn't or the right opportunity hasn't

come up. Yeah, yeah. See, anybody out there has a good

fiction, yeah? And I love reading fiction, yeah? Thanks.

So anyways, we'll see. Well, do you you like reading mind, body,

spirit books on your own, or is it just been so professional

that you can't really separate yourself professionally from it?

Well, I do, you know, before I since college, I've always

had a kind of, you know, I've always investigated, I guess you

could say, you know, as a spiritual seeker, I've always

been had leanings and just kind of want to explore spirituality.

So I've always read spiritual type books, yeah, and then, when

working at beyond words, who focuses on body, mind, spirit,

you know, obviously that just increased my interest, and I

still read it for personal, my own pleasure. I like reading a

lot of nonfiction books, different kinds of nonfiction,

but

especially spirituality. I do have more leanings to Buddhism

and Eastern religion and philosophy, so those are things

I still read now. Yeah, so and I, you know, I, that's why I,

again, it's a personal connection. So, you know, lucky

for me, it my route to becoming who I am now was very organic,

and, you know, coming from beyond words, and working in

this market, in this genre, it was, again, just a natural

connection to who I was already, you know, becoming, and, like,

my own personal interest. So lucky for me, it just worked out

that way. I'm looking at this list here, and I'm trying, you

gave me this list you've worked on. I'm looking for the Buddhism

ones that and is the yogi code, yeah, the Buddhism one. Well,

there was Lama Marut, somebody acquired and worked with at

beyond words, the renegade Yeah, the renegade monk, yeah, the

spiritual Renegades guide and then be nobody write two books

and yeah, he's a Buddhist monk, not my he actually disrobed or

what's it called happiness, oh yeah, you have a DVD. Yeah, we

have a DVD. Oh yeah, you should watch it. He's fine, yeah, yeah.

And as a freelancer, though, I did work on a book with a

publisher through Simon Schuster, wisdom rising, and her

name is Lama sultrum. Oh, yeah,

a female Lama. She was, well, she has an amazing story. She

was one of the first

North American women to be ordained as a monk. And this is

like in the 1960s Whoa, and she's one of those amazing

pioneers. And she basically, like, hitchhiked her from, like,

going from England across all the way to, like, Middle East

and all the way to the Himalayas. Oh, my God, in the

60s. So she was part of this whole kind of movement, you

know, to the east, yeah. And she was, she knew Ram Das and all

these people. She was really one of the, one of the first women

to be part of it. And so she's amazing, yeah. And so working

with her was, I learned a lot. And her book is very woman, you

know, it's empowerment, but yeah. And was incredible story,

her story and she hers, her book was a mix of memoir and

teachings. Okay, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's, she was

incredible. That was wisdom, right? Wisdom wise and fair

name, llama Salim, okay, okay, okay, yeah, she's amazing. Yeah,

I would be really interested in reading me too. Friend and I

were actually talking about, at some point, talking about why we

were interested in mind, body, spirit, because we both are, I'm

not sure that everyone who works there is yeah, like, yeah, so

you both, all right, yeah, yeah, not necessarily. Like, Buddhism.

I think everybody has something they resonate with. But, yeah, I

don't know. Like, do you want to talk about that at all? Yeah, it

might. It might get slightly dark, but well, is that okay, if

you want to put it on, yeah, podcast land, sure. No, I'll do

it. I'll do it. So my mom unexpectedly passed away in like

2010 Okay, so at the time I was.

Still. So I was raised Catholic, okay, I was always like, I was

kind of like, falling out of it by the time she passed away. And

then her passing away was kind of like, no pun intended, the

nail in the coffin. I'm so sorry. But I was just like, you

know, I just don't believe this anymore. I'm not interested in

this. This isn't just doesn't like resonate with me in any

way. So I think after that, I kind of just started, like,

exploring more, sort of different facets of

spirituality, and sort of like different modes of belief. And I

think that was something that I finally like because, you know,

obviously, I've been Catholic my entire life up to that point,

and it's like, I think when something like that happens, you

kind of just start seeking more, because it's like this, you

know, life event, obviously, and you're sort of like, what do I

do now? So anyway, but I think like, that was kind of like the

starting point for me, and to sort of like thinking more

broadly about spirituality and like how it would apply to me,

and what I actually believed and what sounded like appealing to

me. So anyway, but that was, yeah, that was my starting

point. So there you were, my very happy story. Yeah. Where is

that taking you now? Yeah, I think, you know, I still read,

it's funny. I read a lot of Do you know who? What's his name?

Ethan Nick turn, do you know him? No, I so he has, his father

is David Nick turn, and he is, like, a big Buddhist, I can't

remember, like, he's written a bunch of books. I don't remember

who published them, but he's like, this Buddhist kind of

teacher, and He's based in New York City. Okay, so Ethan is his

son, and I read this book by him, maybe, like a year was it

was actually when I was interviewing for this job. I

remember they asked me about it, and it was some, I can't

remember the name of the book, of course, now, but, but anyway,

yeah, but I like, I feel like I sort of like, tend towards that

kind of, that side of it. I think more like the Mind Body

Spirit genre, okay. And I like some of the more like straight

ahead self help stuff. But I think, yeah, like, the Buddhism

kind of like angle is more, I don't know. I just find it more

interesting, because I think it's so different from my

religious experience growing up, you know. So I'm like, Oh, this

is a completely different perspective. Yeah, yeah. I

understand, because I was brought up Baptist. Oh,

believe it, yeah. So, you know, going to Sunday school, yeah,

yeah. So I totally understand what you're saying. You know,

Buddhism is this total

that's a lot different than, yeah, it's counterpoint and but

as I've gotten older and just more life experience, it's, I'm

finding my past is kind of moving a little bit more, at

least more into just, you know, I also kind of dropped out of,

like, yeah, I need to find my what resonates with me, right?

And, and letting go of kind of the dogma, right? And basically,

and just going, you know, yes, I want a spiritual life, but I

want it to kind of come through, yeah, from my own experiences,

right? And not be told, yeah, like, what you should believe

in, exactly. So, you know, that's wonderful. And I Yeah,

yeah. You know, the one book I was just thinking when you're

telling me about your story is, you know, one of my favorite

authors. And everyone is heard of. Her is children. And, you

know, when things fall apart, yeah. And I remember when I've

had some pretty rough times, that book has just always, it's

always, like, just spoken to me, you know, it's like, it's that

book that you have on bedside table. You know, they just reach

out for Yeah, and, and, and take not Han is another one pieces

every step. You know, these are kind of classics for me, and,

and. So when you know, when you go back to these books, I've

read them several times,

it means something like, Okay, I keep going back to these same

books. It's the sort of thing that changes. Every time you

read it exactly. I always find something new. I always kind of

discover some new gem of a thought or an idea that, like,

okay, now I need to just kind of take that in and kind of write

that, you know, kind of meditate on, that you know, mindfulness

and all you know, just learning to be more mindful and

compassionate. Those are things that I do, yeah, resonate with,

yeah, yeah, that's wonderful, yeah.

I'm glad it's good. It's good to be on the journey. Yeah, for

sure, it's true. Yeah. Like, it sounds like we all like

structure, but hate rigidity,

you

know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Emily, Oh, yeah.

I just, I was raised Presbyterian, which is actually

one of the most, like, laid back Christian. That's true, yeah.

But also, like, there was just a really big influence, because

all of my friends were in like, a little bit more conservative

areas, and then

I love my father, but he kind of is a little bit more

conservative as well. And so I became very I am an intense

person by nature, and confirm.

I don't know why I'm an Aquarius, but I haven't either,

but worked out that way. I.

Yeah,

but so I just kind of threw myself into it, and I'd like

read the Bible all the time and listen to Christian radio. No, I

was so intense. She's hardcore, okay, yeah. But then the thing

is, when you get intense about something like that, you find,

you find, like, a crack in it, and then the crack destroys you.

So like, I started finding all of these cracks in the way that

I understood things, and I'm also a very intellectual person,

and so I was trying to make all these things make sense, and

then I just couldn't anymore. And so I just gave that up

completely. Because I was like, This doesn't make sense. This

doesn't make sense. I can't deal with that. And I was so

emotionally invested that it was just like, I can't handle it.

Yeah, so only it was only, like, a couple years ago that I

finally was like, I'm gonna start like, caring for my

spirit. I don't know what that means. I don't even know if I

believe in a spirit, but that doesn't matter if I believe in

it or not. So the kinds of things I've gravitated toward

are like, this is super nerdy, like, beard, Neck Beard stuff,

right? But, like, there's a thing called Chaos magic, which

isn't necessarily it's not a belief system. You don't have to

believe in anything to do it. It's just more like something

that encourages your mind to be flexible. Okay? And so it works.

It works under the assumption that, you know, like, different

belief systems. So, like, you know, a little bit of mythology,

like Greek mythology or nordic mythology. So it's a whole

smorgasbord, yeah.

So it's like, you go learn about these different systems, and

then you apply whichever one works for you to different parts

of your life. Okay? And so that's kind of where I am right

now, is just like giving myself that room and that freedom to

explore, yeah? And kind of it's like, I describe it as having,

like an operating system, but then now I just kind of need the

software. So that's actually one of my goals, yeah, reading this

year is to, like, find, like, the different, the different

software that I can kind of put into that belief system. Well,

it always begins with the questions. Yeah, questions,

right thing, right? That, you know, just isn't sitting well,

you want to explore, you know, and it's exploring, and

exploring is investigating, right? You're just kind of

again, and I don't want to be a mean atheist, you know.

And I'm not an atheist. I just don't like that whole vibe of

like, I've decided nothing exists.

You all think so too. Yeah, yeah. So exploring is fun, yeah,

that's what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Well, it's just because I

just finished.

Michael Poland, how to change your mind? Oh, is that the one

about psychedelics? Yes,

it's it. It's about what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. It's

how psychedelics is, you know? He it's a real deep dive into

kind of history of psychedelics and the science and and this

revival that's like is happening right now, with scientists

studying and kind of proving, well they are proving, with a

lot of research right now, that it's has a lot of healing, sure

elements for like depression, for addiction, For the terminal,

terminally ill who are facing death. So, and then he talks

about his own trips that he goes, Wow, yeah, me, like, made

up with all these icons of, like, psychedelics, yes. Well,

he does meet. So there's a whole history of it. And the history

is, is incredibly fascinating, because we think of, at least

for me, you know, you think of Timothy Leary and all that. But

this goes before all that psychedelics, is much earlier

than that. And there was this, like shamanic stuff, or, well,

they do talk about shamanic indigenous traditions as well,

because this is kind of where that's really the root of all

this. But they're this, what they're talking about, in the

sense of, in the Western world, of just the research and the

scientists looking at it, happened in the like, early 50s,

before Leary and that they were already

it was like it was legal, in a sense, like they were using it

and talking about it. It was an open kind of investigation about

it. But actually, Larry, with his kind of shenanigans,

actually helped to really shut it all down. Oh, because it was

government related, right? It was like it was, he was using it

to be, you know, create that social revolution, culture

revolution, you know, those is the 60s and the Vietnam War and

all these things that were happening, obviously, but so we

kind of always

give Leary the credit, in a way, as the cultural kind of voice

and face of psychedelics. But this book just really delves

into beyond that, and just kind of really talks about it, but

also just how it is. The most fascinating thing I found, too,

is.

Just the meeting of mysticism and spirituality with science,

because we always think of these as polar Yeah. But psychedelics,

the psychedelic research is what's helping it kind of now

fuse basically and be and be, because what happens is that the

scientists who are used, who are researching it, all use it, and

they're like, this is amazing, yeah, and it is for the

spiritually hungry, because Poland himself admits that, you

know, he's he considers as an atheist, right? And he does, he

relates three or four of his trips, and they're pretty

powerful. I mean, the way he describes it, because one of

the, well, it's very hard to put into words, what your trip,

but he does it amazingly, and it's really beautiful. It's very

powerful. And he comes out of it going, I'm this was, yeah, I

mean my, soul. I mean him. He opened himself to another place,

to another Yeah, yeah. And he feels, he felt completely

altered, wow, after I've heard that, yeah, so many people. I

read, um, I read Talon. The book was trip. It was just called

trip, and it was a, it was kind of like, came out, I think

around the same time, I think it's the more like millennial,

like old millennial version, maybe like cusp, okay? And it's

basically just him kind of like doing that exploratory memoir

kind of stuff, yes, about and then he, like films himself to

having his trips, because he's trying to, oh gosh,

he's trying to make sense of them and trying to see, like, if

he can remember what was going on in his head at the time that

it happened, and it doesn't work, you'd want to see it

might not inspire any yeah, there's this chapter. I think it

was, I think it was LSD, where he, like, had somebody sitting

him, and then, like, he goes through this whole thing of,

apparently, I thought she was trying to kill me at this point.

And then this happened, like, at, you know, 2:30am

this is, this is what I said, and then I went and I hid behind

the couch. It's just, I think he was trying to do what Michael

Pullen did, but, like, less successful. Okay, okay, it was a

little bit more like one of those personal things that's not

like, from the core of a journalist who's trying to

explore things and actually find out. I mean, yeah, but it's an

interesting movement. Is, yes, it is, yeah, I found a book. I

mean, I have to after. I'm like, wow, I want to

go through something you never thought you would have wanted to

do. And he even said that when he was investigating he he was

envious of these people's experiences, and because he

heard these amazing stories, he's like, I need to experience

this. And he does, yeah, and he goes through experience of going

back to his own birth. Wow. And that's a common story. Many of

them actually can remember and feel their birth holy.

I know he has one scene where he's like, giving he's giving

birth to like son. It's like, really, and it sounds that

sounds kind of sounds idiotic, the way I'm saying it, but

you read it and how it's just so

full of emotion and intensity. And it's, he says, it's like, it

just felt so real. And he just, yeah, once you come out of that,

you can't go back yeah right away, because you've, like, seen

something, experienced something, you just can't

pretend that didn't happen. Yeah? So it was very

enlightening to me. I found it I was like, a page turner for me.

So it's also got a great cover. Yeah? It's like this trap door

right up above it. It's a really cool cover. Yeah? So subject

matter,

okay, well, that sounds really cool, yeah. Well, I mean, if, if

you ever, you're

interested in psychedelics,

I don't know, text me talk

about Yeah, if you need somebody to babysit,

yeah? Yeah. All right. All right. Um, damn okay. Like, we

just went through everything. I think we did too, that's all

right, though,

um, yeah, what else is there? I can't, well, let's just, let's

just want to freestyle, yeah, this is what we do. Well, we

were, I was going to ask you, like, what you were reading

right now. But, I mean, are you reading that right now? I just

finished that, and then

I'm a big murakabi fan. Oh yeah. Is New killing commentatory, uh

huh. Is it good? Yeah, it's, it's great. I mean, that's a

again page turner. It is. It's really i.

I, I'm in, you know, just kind of caught into the whole drama,

yeah, of it. I'm almost finished with it. So, oh, wow, was that

the one that was up for the bad sex award? Oh, I may have been.

I think I feel like I remember they're always

weird. He's a surrealist, yeah, yeah, my mind, yeah, that makes

sense.

The last one I read was like, Oh, what was it? Colorless? A

colorist.

It's a hard, it's a long, long, yeah, very long title. He was

the one who didn't have a name that was for this. Yeah,

colorless. Bukit, the

character's name, I'll put it in the show notes,

okay, but I remember reading that, and I think the one before

that was one, q8, four, yeah, kind of a massive

like, Oh, this is a letdown. There's no exploding German

Shepherd in it. Yeah? Those two books, when I read them the

first time I and I, I've read all of Murakami's books, right?

I'm kind of a hardcore fan, and so one curate for and the

colorless one, the first colorless fellow.

I those ones I read the first time. I was a little

disappointed

for some reason, but when I took the time to go back and read

them, I enjoy them much more second time, yeah, oh, I really

liked one q8 for Okay, yeah, okay, yeah. I like how he kind

of has the, there's that little nod to it, the cult leader, oh,

yeah, thing. I mean, yes, yeah. Well, he also wrote, I mean, did

you read the journalist, the underground, yes, oh my read

that train the into, oh yeah, interviewed all these people.

Oh, my God, been in the gas attack, and it was, it was, it

was, it was a great, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating.

You should read it, because you like cold. You do love them.

Yeah, you just had a you just had one of your blog posts I did

about the cult books that I have read and love, and only two of

them, so you have to so many more. I know I will write from

different perspectives of the survivors, but then the

perpetrators.

Yeah, yeah, detail kind of behind this. Yeah, like to be

part of the cult. Yeah, it's interesting. What's the name of

that book? Underground, underground, underground. Okay,

all right, okay, so, do you have a favorite Murakami book?

Gosh,

I like Kafka on the shore. I do too. Yeah, it's one of my

favorites. That was my first Oh, really, yeah, yeah. For me, is

wind up bird. Okay, that was my first one introduction. Then I

kind of went back and read. But I, like, a lot of his early ones

to wild, cheap Chase is pretty, yes, I like that kind of say,

like a little bit of a series the cheap Chase, oh, I just know

it was, he was, like, in the snow, yeah, yeah, and yeah, I

love, I mean, Norwegian would, I mean, there's several other ones

too, but,

but Kafka on the shore was kind of, it's a great one. It's a

great because I love all the characters in it. I kind of, JT

one day was talking about how there's that scene where he's

listening to Kid A

Radiohead. And JT was like, wait, wait, wait, he like, quit

and cut his head

while he was reading it. That was insane. I probably

told that story wrong, but he'll let me know. Wait, no, he won't.

He doesn't listen to this podcast.

Yeah, so we know that you're reading the Jim Jones, yes,

that's what I'm reading right now. And then, I don't think, I

think that's, oh, I was also reading this other book by Megan

O'Connell called and now we have everything. How's that going?

It's all right, I don't know. She's like, I really liked her

on Twitter, reading things I know I think I might stop. I'm

like, halfway problem. That's part of the problems. You had

to, like, finish. Oh, I know you force yourself to finish books.

Yeah, I do. I think it's a Virgo, okay? Like, it's like,

you just have to get it done. Yeah, yeah. It's, like, admitted

to this. I'm gonna do it, but I am there. There's no enjoyment

in it, yeah? It's like, she's, I read the book because I really

like her on Twitter. She's funny on Twitter, she wrote a book.

Great, sure. I'll check it out. And it's fine, but it's just not

really like. I'm not really interested. Just so I think I'm

not separating it, yeah, I'm gonna feel okay about that,

yeah,

yeah. I'll just read more about Jonestown, which I'm more

interested in. So I mean, if you're like, if you still like

it, and it's the beginning for me, of of, like, biographies and

that kind of thing, art is always the hardest, yeah, the

hardest, yeah, yeah. That's because you're just like, I

don't know for real, yeah, but I feel like Jim Jones's life gets

real weird, like, real fast, you know, like, my speed, yeah, he

had a wackadoo.

Been like, yeah, it's not like, I mean, it ramps up pretty fast.

So, yeah, ready, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Get excited. I know.

I know how it ends. Yeah, yes, we all do, yeah.

Anyway. Oh, well, I got, I just got the Jim Jones book, and then

I got lime, the limetown. Yeah, cool. You're very excited.

Listen to podcasts a lot. No, oh, there's this one that was, I

guess. It was written by a bunch of guys who went to the Tisch

School, okay? And it was one of the few good fictional podcasts

I've ever heard. Well, I mean, a lot of them are good, but a lot

of them have really bad actors, yeah, but the actors in this one

are fantastic. And it's one of the only podcasts I've listened

to where I've, like, screamed in public because it scared me so

much, yeah, like, and it was really embarrassing, but it's

such a good podcast. And I forgot because it, it came out

with Season One, like, two years ago, and then just like, in the

last two months, it popped up with a season two, okay? I was

like, what? And then it was like, we have a book out with

Simon and Schuster that's a prequel to all of this stuff.

And I was

like, I got that from pals too. And this upcoming weekend, when

we have, like, four, yeah,

yeah. So,

goals, yeah.

So Emily, do you have anything else you'd like to share with us

about your career, like and your current business, or anything

you'd like to plug?

No, I'm, I'm just thank you for inviting me onto this. I was

just excited. Yeah, this opportunity is my first podcast.

Yeah, we're so honored. Yeah,

it's fun. And no, I just, just want to say, keep on reading.

Yeah, loving books, yes, the best thing I just love books.

Yeah, I'm glad that we all share that. Yeah, definitely, yeah.

Well, that's basically, that's our sign off is, oh, well, we've

decided to not make it as cussy as we used to, because sometimes

we have children's publishers, we want to be like, yeah. So

now, instead of thanks for giving a shit about books, it's

thanks for listening. Today. You can find us@hybridpubscout.com

you can find us on Facebook at hybrid pub Scout, on Twitter at

hybrid pub scout. We're on SoundCloud, Apple podcasts,

player FM, just search hybrid pub Scout, and we'd love it if

you left us a five star review. Thanks for listening, and thanks

for giving a riff about

you.