Shaping workplace culture is becoming an increasingly important part of HR's role, with many HR functions being renamed as "People and Culture" and culture-related responsibilities appearing in job titles. But how do you actually go about shaping culture, especially when you're already busy with your day-to-day work?

In this special episode of HR Coffee Time, host Fay Wallis is joined by two guests: Annabelle Lawson, HR Manager at SPT Lab Tech, and Paula Brockwell, Founder and Chief Culture Shaper at the Employee Experience Project. Together, they explore practical strategies for defining, shaping, and embedding a winning workplace culture.

This episode is packed with actionable advice, from how to engage leadership in culture initiatives to how HR professionals can avoid becoming overwhelmed by the process. Whether you're just starting your culture journey or looking to refine your approach, this conversation is here to help.

Chapters from This Episode

[00:00] Introduction and Overview

[01:33] Meet the Guests: Annabelle Lawson and Paula Brockwell

[03:59] Annabelle Explains Her Culture Project

[08:32] Culture is a Strategic Enabler of Business Growth

[09:26] Using the Business Culture Canvas for Culture Conversations

[12:46] Embedding New Culture and Measuring Progress

[15:20] Timeframes for Seeing Cultural Changes

[19:55] Avoiding Overwhelm When Working on Culture Initiatives

[23:25] Starting a Culture Journey from Scratch

[24:33] The Importance of CEO Engagement in Culture Initiatives

[25:03] Book Recommendations

[26:06] How to Connect with Annabelle and Paula

Useful Links

• Connect with Fay on LinkedIn
• Fay’s website: Bright Sky Career Coaching
• Connect with Annabelle Lawson on LinkedIn
• Connect with Paula Brockwell on LinkedIn
• Paula’s website: The Employee Experience Project

Research and Resources Mentioned

• Download Paula’s free culture change resources
• Access Paula’s Business Culture Canvas
• Access Paula’s Culture Catalyst Scorecard

Other Relevant HR Coffee Time Episodes

• Episode 114: What workplace culture is, how to measure it, and a surprising way to improve it with Arend Boersema
• Episode 120: Crafting culture: unearthing and shaping the heart of your business with Louise Kennedy

Book Recommendation From the Episode

• ‘Herd: How to Change Mass Behaviour by Harnessing Our True Nature’ by
• Mark Earls ‘Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking’ by Susan Cain

Looking For the Transcript?

You can find the transcript on this page of the Bright Sky Career Coaching website.

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If you found this episode of HR Coffee Time helpful, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. This video shows you how to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts (because it isn’t very intuitive). If you're kind enough to leave a review, let Fay know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: fay@brightskycareercoaching.co.uk.

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Hello and welcome back to HR coffee time.

It's wonderful to have you listening today.

I'm your host, Faye Wallace, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I've made HR coffee time especially for you to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career.

I know that at some point in your HR career you may be asked to shape a new culture at work to help set the organisation up for success.

Culture is a topic I've seen discussed more and more in the HR world, with some HR functions being renamed as people and culture, and many HR and people jobs now have got the word culture in their title.

But shaping culture can feel pretty daunting.

As with so many of the things you're asked to do at work, you might never have had any training on how to do this and you might also be feeling incredibly busy with the rest of your work, which means it's easy to start feeling nervous about it and worried about about how on earth you're going to do it.

So I'm really excited about sharing this episode with you.

It's the third episode of the show we'll have had about culture and this one focuses on how to shape a winning workplace culture when you work in HR.

The episode is a little bit different to all the other episodes of HR coffee time that I've created for you so far.

Episodes 114 and 120 also explored culture, but in slightly different ways.

But what makes this episode so different is the fact that for the very first time on the show, instead of it being a solo episode with me or a guest episode with one other guest, you are going to get to meet two guests, Annabelle Lawson and Paula Brockwell.

Annabelle Lawson is the HR manager at SPT Lab Tech, which is a company that makes products transforming the way scientists work.

With over ten years of experience in generalist HR roles, Annabelle is passionate about continuous learning and she loves working with innovative, talented people.

Paula is the founder and chief culture shaper at the Employee Experience Project, with over 20 years of experience supporting clients in fostering great behaviours in their businesses and with a grounding as a chartered occupational psychologist, she has an in depth, practical and evidence based understanding of what drives healthy organizational systems.

She describes herself as being on a mission to tackle the overwhelm, isolation and frustration out of culture change for strategic HR leaders.

Annabelle was part of the most recent cohort of my group programme inspiring HR and when she asked me if I knew very much about shaping culture within an organisation, I said no, but that I did know someone who did and that person is Paula.

The conversation with Annabelle gave me an idea.

I asked her and Paula if they'd be interested in joining me for an episode of HR Coffee Time, where Annabelle does most of the interviewing, asking Paula for help and advice around a culture project she has just started at work.

And with me chipping in now and again to help ask questions that I think you, the person listening, might also find helpful.

Luckily for me, both Annabelle and Paula said yes.

And that means that you are about to hear our chat.

I really hope that you enjoy it.

Let's go ahead and meet them now.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Paula and Annabelle.

It's wonderful to have you here.

Hi, bea.

Hi, Paula.

Hi ye thanks for having us.

You are very welcome.

And I thought to start us off today before I dive into the questions and before Annabelle dives into some of her questions, it would be great to hear a little bit about your situation at work, Annabelle, so that you can explain it to Paula and then lead into your first question that you have for her.

Yes, of course.

Thank you.

So at the moment, we're focusing on culture within our business.

So it's been a really fast and furious journey and really focusing on commercial delivery.

So we've also done some acquisitions, so a lot has changed and also navigating the pandemic as well due to our sector.

So we haven't really focused in on what our culture is or what we want it to be.

So with a new CEO joining our businesses recently, we've really want to know how we can build on the success that we've had prior to him joining.

But also, how can we leverage this to get to the next stage of our business and really continue to build on having that winning team mentality within the business.

So we've started speaking to our employees about culture and had some roundtables with teams in the UK.

So it's been really interesting kind of finding out about what people actually they have to say about that.

So our focus now is collating all of that information and then being able to feed that back to our executive team.

So my question would be sort of to understand what advice you can give in terms of how this can be successful within the business.

Yeah.

Lovely.

Okay.

Exciting.

Well, I suppose my initial instinct in listening to you talk is that you're in a brilliant place because what you haven't got is a load of rubbish and toxicity that you're trying to.

You're kind of ahead of the curve in terms of noticing that you've accidentally created something that works quite well or it's come together nicely, but appreciating the fact that that will get you to the next stage.

And I think that brings you light years ahead of a lot of businesses who wait until the cracks start to show, or noticing that what's got them to where they were isn't really working as they move into the next phase.

So I think the fact that you're thinking about it proactively, you've got CEO engagement and drive around that.

That is really the foundation for success to start with.

So, yeah, brilliant, brilliant that you're at the point you are and you're thinking about it consciously, I think, in terms of thinking about where to go next steps.

For me, this is a really common place that clients contact us to have a conversation, because what they do is they get a really good understanding of the irks and the tweaks and the things that colleagues say they would like to be different.

But often that consultation doesn't necessarily get really to the heart of.

Of what drives business performance.

So it's kind of surface level stuff like what's going on in the canteen or routine for availability, you know, whether the printers work or not, things like that, really.

And particularly, I think if you're thinking about a next stage of the business and a new mode of operation that might be driven by growth, or looking at expansion or whatever it may be, or thinking about how you navigate that acquisition, those acquisitions, then colleagues don't necessarily have the insight.

So where I would be looking is starting to think about working with your CEO and your executive around, defining the ideal future and figuring out what type of behaviours you need to allow you to move into that next stage of growth.

And then what does that mean in terms of your culture?

And that allows you to contextualise all of that lovely colleague feedback that you've got around what's important to them and how does that fit to that culture, fit for the future?

So that business focused conversation and what does the business need moving forward to contextualise what colleagues say they want, I think is really helpful.

Yeah, I definitely think that that would be helpful because we have definitely seen a difference in, I think, people saying or themes coming out a bit around wanting free food.

But I think actually the meaning behind that is really that there's that missing of social connection.

I think where we've had the pandemic and been working from home, returning to the office gradually, I think that's a real driver, is more the social connection for our employees.

Paula, it's great to hear your advice and I'm really looking forward to hearing everything else you'll be sharing with us today where you've talked about the importance of having the discussions with leadership.

Have you got any recommendations or structures that would really help set Annabelle up for success with doing that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I think there's a few things that really help in having those conversations about defining the ideal culture.

One is about supporting leadership.

To really understand that culture isn't this fluffy thing that happens outside of how they run the business, but it's about the way in which you do business and the way in which people behave, which means it's directly linked to performance.

So I think having that conversation where you help link this idea of how our culture is, what characteristics we have, the beliefs that people have about our culture, drives how they feel and therefore immediately drives their behavior.

So culture is as much of a strategic enabler of business growth and performance as youre operating system or decisions that you make around your resourcing models or whatever it may be, that it's as important because actually it informs the behaviours that people drive on a day by day basis.

So that's the first thing I would say, is having that bigger conversation, not having the dictionary definition of what is culture, but what does this actually mean in relation to performance?

And the best way to do that is to talk to that executive team about what their goals are, what the priorities are, how they see current behaviours matching to that, and what they need moving forward.

And we've got a lovely tool that I'm really happy to share with you that's called the kind of business culture canvas, which is giving you a series of questions that you can use to host that conversation, which is things like what's going on in the market, what are the big opportunities that you need to leverage, or the risks that you see, what your competitor is doing that we need to be able to do as well.

And what behaviors does that mean?

We need to demonstrate to do that.

So hosting that bigger conversation and showing how it links to the operational running of the business I think is massively important.

And then the second piece I would say, of defining the ideal culture is once you understand the behaviours you need to drive performance, then think about the behaviours that you need to drive engagement.

So at that point, I'd be having a conversation with colleagues again about if this is how we need to act to allow the business to succeed, what do you need from each other, from managers and leaders to make that happen.

So you're defining both business needs and colleague needs, which creates that balanced psychological contract of delivering business results through a thrive colleague population, rather than accidentally creating some sort of sweatshop where it's just about the business needs.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

I think going back as well to the employees is a really important point.

I think closing that sort of feedback loop really helps.

Then I think take people on the journey.

I think the context of the business leader direction around these are the types of behaviours that we need fundamentally shifts then the conversation with colleagues.

So rather than talking to you at that surface level about food vans or Fridays or the stuff that's associated with that social connection need that you mentioned, they'll be focusing in a bit more.

You're orientating them towards how do I fulfil the business needs and how do I make this deal where if that's what the business needs from me, I'm being really clear about what I need from the business to be able to deliver that in a happy, healthy and sustainable way.

So we're shifting that deal towards a partnership, I guess a partnership around performance rather than what is the business going to do to just make me feel happy today?

Because it can't be about that in isolation.

I love how you've talked about culture being a strategic enabler for the business puller.

I think that's a phrase, or I hope that's a phrase, that lots of people listening will be able to give them confidence when they walk into their organisations and say, this is something we need to start thinking about and start addressing.

And I love the fact that you have so generously said that you will share the canvas that you have.

I'll pop a link to that in the show notes for everyone.

I've already seen the canvas and it's fantastic.

So for anyone listening, if culture is something that you're really trying to improve your skills at developing and shaping and talking to your leadership team about, then please do check that out.

I think you'll find it really useful.

Now that we've started off with your brilliant advice for Annabelle on how she can start approaching tackling culture and deciding on culture and shaping culture in her organization, and she's going to have those really helpful conversations and has already started having them, what would your advice be about how anyone, or Annabelle in particular, can then embed the new culture once everyone's decided, okay, this is the ideal culture we're aiming for, how can she then actually go about embedding it again?

This is a really common kind of challenge points for businesses.

One of the places that we start working in partnership with businesses on really commonly is where they've either done or they've got another business to do that kind of as is, and to be evaluation.

And so they can see really clearly where they are at the moment and where they want to get to.

But what they don't necessarily understand or they don't have the vocabulary and tools to really understand and articulate with the rest of the business is what needs to change to get there.

So one of the things that we did in our approach honestly fueled out of my frustration of lots of years of doing this and just seeing it not quite click the way that I really wanted to, that I guess, my values would make me feel proud of, really.

We built what we call the kind of culture catalyst scorecards, which sits below that piece around as is in two b and allows you to have a look at your organizational ecosystem and say, well, what is it within the way that we do business, how our leaders are acting, our managers behave, what our colleagues expectations and behaviour is driving, but also what is it in our systems and processes that is really driving us to have the culture that we have today, and how are those things helping or hindering us from getting to our ideas?

Ideal culture.

So in looking at that, what you can do is a really systemic kind of, or systematic, should I say, rag rating that says, well, this stuff's actually working.

It points towards the ideal culture, it's just not clicking the way that it needs to.

But these few things are really holding us back or really encouraging us to behave the way that we always have.

And it allows you then to start to prioritise the action that you need to take and really broadly involve other people in that.

Because it's not just HR saying, I need to get everybody excited about this, but it might be saying, actually leaders, if we want to have more empowerment and accountability, then one of the things we need to look at is the type of papers that we're accepting into boards, or how we respond when people escalate issues to us.

Do we just lift those and take them and resolve them, or do we nudge them back down and coach people through resolving them themselves?

So taking a really practical approach at looking at different parts of the system to help us figure out where we are accidentally encouraging people to behave in a way that we don't want them to.

So that is a really great tool.

And again, we open source all of our methodology.

So I can share the link for you, for the access to that so that you can look at that dashboard and look at how you work at that yourself to really think about and identify those drivers?

Yeah, I think that would be really helpful to anyone probably embarking on this kind of journey.

How long do you have a typical timeframe that you would look to, you know, see improvements of particular areas in culture or.

I know, I understand it's probably quite an iterative process, but.

But just, I think when you're talking there about behaviors, you know, that sounds like it could be more of a slow burn than something that would happen overnight.

Yeah, it's interesting because we see different pieces depending on the behaviors.

So different organizations will have certain things that sit as opportunities to flip quickly, and the kind of driver map allows you to see that.

So where are the things that are just, really are just a consequence of how we do business, or a system and process, or a belief that people are reacting to that isn't really secretly held, that would be able to flip quickly?

Those things, we can move quickly, and we call those in the culture change kind of world, the green shoots, because that's the stuff that shows people that we're serious about change, that we can have impact.

So it's important to really focus on those.

But we've also then got in most organizations, some sacred cows, and they're the things that are really embedded, that have become functional for some reason through a long period of time and are really difficult to unpick with those.

Typically, it can take anywhere from six to twelve months to really start to get to a place where people are ready to challenge those and look at them differently.

And then it can take a bit longer for the momentum to build on those.

But the great thing about culture change is that often we look for very quick results, and the preparing of things can take a while, because we've got to get people to a place where they feel safe, they accept, they feel confident that they can do something different, and they're willing to lift their head above the parapet, that can take a bit of time to do.

But if you do that well, through great comms and great role modeling and doing that quick win stuff to show people that you really mean business and really getting your leaders to demonstrate the change that you're seeking, if you do that well, it's like sending a snowball down a hill.

It builds momentum and it builds volume really, really quickly because you've created the conditions for things to catch fire.

So my best advice to you really is to contract with your leadership team around.

We call it having that runaway for takeoff.

So make sure that you really define what that Runway looks like and what are the quick wins and green shoots that you can see on the way to show people that progress is happening.

But then thinking about that true takeoff behavior change, giving yourself a bit longer to contract on that, and being really clear about what the conditions for change are on that.

So that piece around leadership, role modeling, and I'm picking some of the really sticky systems and processes is massively important because otherwise, we're just asking people to superhero new behaviors in an environment that's not primed for them to succeed.

So they'll either burn out and leave or they'll become disgruntled.

So you've got to make sure that the conditions are primed before you ask them to try and fly.

And would you use that rag model that you mentioned to as part of your communication to employees?

So you've got your business metrics, for example, and you would use that as well, I guess, just in terms of thinking about the expectation as to how quickly these things, you know, people might expect them to change.

I'm just, again, thinking how I can communicate, or the executive team can communicate to the business about where we're at in that journey as well.

Yeah.

So for me, storytelling is massively important.

So we use the rag system, often quite close within the change team and the exec, because people can mistake a red with this perception of a poor culture.

But that isn't what we mean.

What we mean is it's that factor isn't aligned to your ideal culture.

So there's lots of businesses that we work with that have really great cultures.

They're just not fit for where that business is going in the future.

So they might have a bright red and orange dashboard, and that doesn't mean that they're not looking after people and performing perfectly well within their current context.

What it means is they're not set up to drive the growth or the innovation or whatever the new opportunities that they're trying to seek are.

So I think it depends what your rag rating looks like and whether you feel like you've got the channels for your colleagues to really understand that.

But I definitely think talking about that journey of change, again, we've got a readiness model.

I'm throwing everything at everybody today, but we've got a readiness model that thinks about this bit around attitude, mindset, capability, and opportunity.

And we use that language with people in terms of, we've got to understand this first.

We've got to get our own role in it.

We've got to create the conditions that makes it easy for you to do this.

So we're talking to people about the whole system, but perhaps not just sharing the nitty gritty of it.

Okay, that's really helpful.

Thank you.

Listening to you talk, Paula, it makes me think, oh my goodness, there is so much to this.

Have you got any advice for someone listening who may be in a very similar position to Annabelle, busy on this work and worried that they're going to get overwhelmed?

Sorry, I'm not saying you're getting overwhelmed, Annabelle, at all.

I'm thinking about me.

If I was back in my old HR role and I heard all of this advice, I'd be thinking, this is fantastic.

Thank goodness someone is telling me how I approach this.

But I also know my other feelings would be, oh my goodness, there is so much to do.

How am I going to stay on top of all of this when I have got my business as usual work as well?

It would be great to hear what your thoughts and advice are around that puller.

Yeah, it's a beautiful question because I think that's where a lot of people end up.

They feel like they are the sole architects of culture and they're trying to make every piece happen.

And a big bit of the work that we do with HR leaders is supporting them to really define their role in the change.

Ideal for me, and this is a journey, but ideal for me, is as strategic HR leaders, our job should be really being the conductor of the orchestra.

When you look across the culture driver piece we own, we can directly influence but one small part of that overall system.

It's our job to create the capability, I guess, the system, the people, systems and processes, and the overall capability within the business for people to manage this.

But in the same way as we don't expect it to appear and type on a keyboard, for us, it's not our job as HR leaders to enact the culture.

So really our change effort should be more about how do we activate the other parts of the business to make sure that doing what's required.

So how are we working with our comms colleagues on the storytelling?

How are we really supporting our exec leaders to understand that the decisions that they make in the moment really impact people's beliefs and expectations about how they should behave at work?

How do we help those local leaders and local managers support people to make good decisions and give them permission to behave in the way that we need them to and create the conditions for that?

So our job should be about enablement rather than making things happen.

But I think in the early stages, what our job is really about is reminding leaders of the kind of the age old model of servant leadership, really.

I think a lot of businesses have got to the point where leaders think it's colleagues job to inform them, advise them, and make them feel safe.

And if we can encourage that flip where we get leaders and managers to understand, actually it's our job to create the conditions where all those extra boots on the ground are doing what we need them to, to deliver the business results, then actually that's what great looks like from a behavior point of view and a leadership and management point of view.

So for me, that's the challenge.

We should be focusing on flipping the mindset of our leaders and managers and then doing the work that we can influence while supporting and encouraging other people to do what they need.

Still sounds like quite a long list, but hopefully you can see that there's a fundamental shift there in, you know, write the theme tune, sing the theme tune, one man band approach to actually having the orchestra that you're conducting and getting the tune out that way instead.

That's really helpful to know.

And I think knowing that you're, you know, you're not solely responsible for that is quite comforting.

I was perhaps thinking about it from a perspective of, you know, if I wasn't in the place that I'm in, so I hadn't done the round tables, or perhaps the culture hadn't been as successful, you know, up to this point for the business, how would you then, you know, recommend someone starting looking at their culture and wanting to craft it?

Yeah, it's a good question.

I think that piece around where there's a know where, perhaps there is perception that there is a poor culture or there's.

There's challenges, or often what we see is that kind of crack between leadership and colleagues and very different perceptions of experiences and people blaming each other on things.

I think the starting place has got to be about contracting on your role.

So making sure that in those circumstances, often what I see is that HR people get caught in that kind of policing role, so they're sent in to have the conversations when difficult behavior happens, or they're the person in the room who's saying, I get that's how you feel, but here's another perspective around it.

And so I think that often what we've got to do is get ourselves out of that role, extract ourselves out of that role, and move more into the coach role around that.

This is your responsibility to get this from this person and support in that way.

I'm not suggesting that, you know, those are, those are the words you use, but starting to reorientate that and help people to notice that they're responsible for the culture is important.

Honestly, in my experience, you cannot make a difference if your chief executive is not on board with you.

So for me, the starting point of any culture change initiative isn't to go, thank you for delegating this to me.

I'll go away and figure out what I can do.

It's to say, okay, so you're saying this is important, which is why you raised it, or you're not saying it's important, but you're complaining about all this behaviour, so therefore it is important.

Let's have a conversation about what type of business you need to succeed.

So going right back to that, defining the ideal culture in a really business centric way, have that conversation with your CEO.

See if you can really hook them on this idea of behavior being a driver of performance and culture being a driver of behaviour.

And if you can get moving on it, because you can do some really great stuff.

And if you can't, then set some really clear expectations that you might be able to do some stuff that bumps morale a little bit, but you're not going to be able to change the overall tone of the organization.

So honest conversations, honest contracting, and if you feel like you're in a toxic place that you're trying to superhero against and nobody else is interested in, honestly, just get out of dodge because you are not going to change it.

You are going to sacrifice yourself in the context.

And that's really the best advice I can give you.

I get in trouble for that when I start coaching people around that in our contracts.

But I think you've got to think about sustainability around this sort of thing.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, it's been so wonderful learning from you both today and listening to your conversation.

Annabelle, I want wish you the best of luck with your culture journey at work.

It sounds like it's got off to a brilliant start anyway, and I'm sure it will carry on in the same vein.

Paula, it's been so lovely having you share your expertise.

I know I'm hugely grateful and that everyone listening will be as well.

For the first time ever, I get to ask two people their book recommendation question.

I normally ask this at the end of every guest episode.

So yeah, for the first time, I'm going to ask you both.

So, Paula, are you happy to go first and let us know what you would like to recommend for everyone?

Absolutely.

So for me, one of the biggest influencing books for me in terms of my journey on doing culture change differently was heard by Mark Earls, which looks at the idea of how to change mass behavior in a way that's human centric.

So heard by Mark Earls is a must read for anybody who wants to know more about this area.

I would say, oh, fantastic.

And as always, I'll make sure that I pop links to both the book recommendations in the show notes.

Annabelle, do you want to tell us what your book recommendation is?

Yep, sure.

So at the moment I'm currently reading quiet by Susan Cain.

I think I just, in terms of my own personal development, found this a really interesting topic around the difference between introverts and extroverts and the power that introverts can harness to be successful.

So that's my current recommendation.

Well, that's such a fantastic book.

That's one that has been recommended a couple of times on this show before.

I wonder if it's even the most recommended book.

So quite a strong signal there if anyone's thinking about what they should be adding to their reading list.

As always, I will finish the episode by saying that for anyone who'd like to get in touch with either of you, I know you've both very kindly said that you're happy for people to connect with you on LinkedIn, so I will put links to your LinkedIn profiles in the show notes.

And Paula, I'll make sure that I put a link to your business website in there too, as a reminder for anyone to look it up.

Paula's business is called the employee Experience Project, so all that leaves me to say is a huge thank you for your time today.

It's been fantastic chatting about culture with you both.

Thank you very much.

I really enjoyed the experience, so thank you Paula, for sharing all of your wisdom and look forward to the next part of the journey.

Thank you.

It's lovely to hear what you're up to.

I can't wait to see what the next chapter's got for you.

That brings us to the end of the episode.

I hope you enjoyed the slightly different format this week and that you liked hearing from Annabelle.

And Paula, if you're about to embark on your culture journey at work, I really hope this episode has given you some ideas on where to start.

And if you're already in the thick of it, like Annabelle, I hope you've picked up some useful tips to keep you going.

I'd love to know what your favourite takeaway from the interview was you can always reach me on LinkedIn.

I've probably spent far too much time on there.

I'm on LinkedIn as Faye Wallace and that's Faye without an e on the end, so it's spelt f a y, while Wallis has an is on the end instead of an a c e.

And if culture is a topic that you're especially interested in at the moment, don't forget that there are two other HR coffee time episodes that focus on culture.

You might find them helpful to listen to next.

They are episode 114, what workplace culture is, how to measure it, and a surprising way to improve it with Arend Borsima and episode 120, crafting culture, unearthing and shaping the heart of your business with Louise Kennedy.

I'll make sure that I pop links to both of those in the show notes for you.

And speaking of show notes, you can find them for every episode of HR Coffee Time on my website, Brightsky career coaching.

Just go to the website, click on HR Coffee Time podcast and you'll see every episode listed there for you, along with the full notes for each one.

It's a great resource if you want to revisit any of the topics that we've covered and find links to all the resources and book recommendations that are in most of the episodes.

Thank you so much for listening today.

If you have enjoyed the show, please do subscribe to it or follow it so that the app or website you're listening to this on will let you know as soon as the next episode is released.

Or of course, there is always the option of signing up to receive my free weekly HR coffee time emails.

You'll find the link in the show notes and on my website.

If you sign up to receive those emails, I will let you know when new episodes are released and I also share lots of other tips, information and resources in those emails as well.

Take care and I'm really looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode.

For.