The central theme of this podcast episode is the imperative of embracing public theology as a means to invigorate the church's engagement with contemporary societal issues. We are joined by the esteemed Dr. Scott N. Callaham, Dean of the Institute of Public Theology, who elucidates the necessity for believers to transcend the confines of private faith and articulate a robust Christian witness in the public sphere. Recorded at the G3 conference on September 22, 2023, this dialogue underscores the critical juncture at which American evangelicalism finds itself, particularly in light of recent challenges that have tested the resolve of the church. Dr. Callaham's insights reveal the shortcomings of traditional theological training and propose a revitalized approach that equips Christians to fulfill the Great Commission with confidence and clarity. As we delve into this conversation, we aim to inspire our audience to consider how they might actively participate in the public discourse surrounding faith and morality.

Takeaways:

• The notion of public theology seeks to break free from the constraints of private religion, thereby encouraging believers to engage actively in their communities.
• Dr. Scott N. Callaham emphasizes the vital role of biblical literacy in revitalizing the church's public voice in contemporary society.
• The Institute of Public Theology aims to equip Christians with the theological foundation necessary for meaningful engagement in their cultural contexts.
• The discussion highlights the importance of theological education that extends beyond the walls of the church to inspire public faith and witness.
• The podcast underscores the need for Christians to reclaim their public voice, especially in a society that often discourages open expressions of faith.
• Public theology, as articulated in this episode, serves as a clarion call for believers to actively participate in the Great Commission and societal discourse.

Links referenced in this episode:

• instituteofpublictheology.org
• stopandthinkpodcast.com
• soulfishingministries.org

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Public Theology
• Soul Fishing Ministries
• Institute of Public Theology
• Founders Ministries

It's been said by many, never discuss religion and politics, especially with your family.

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You're listening to Stock and Think About It, a podcast for the Christian thinker.

In a day when sound biblical preaching has been replaced by man centered entertainment and the church has become increasingly anti intellectual, this podcast will encourage believers to think biblically and theologically.

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Welcome, friends and foes, saints and sinners, to another episode of the Stop and Think about it podcast.

We have our new friend Scott from Public Theology with us today at the G3 conference here in Atlanta, Georgia.

And so we were speaking before and intrigued by just the title of his ministry and seminary, Public Theology.

Because many times we think theology is just for the head and stay in the four walls of the church and it just ceases at that spot.

So welcome, brother, to Stop and Think about it podcast.

Yes.

Great to be here.

Thanks for having me.

So I'm Phil Sessa.

Yes.

I'm the director of Soul Fishing Ministries.

And so we were speaking a little while ago about public theology.

Right.

Can you tell us about who you are and your ministry?

Yes.

So I'm Scott Callahan.

I'm the dean of the Institute of Public Theology, which is a work of Founders Ministries.

And so some people have heard as founders, haven't heard about us or vice versa.

But this is a really important work that the founding faculty, Tom Ascol, Vodie Bauckham, Tom Nettles, a few years ago were realizing, you know, the traditional ways we've been doing things in training up the leaders of the church.

Sometimes they work, but it seems like overall they've kind of failed us in the last few years because it looks like evangelicalism writ large wants people to have a very spiritual formation, mystical piety, keep it in your head kind of faith, rather than living out a great commission faith, which is outward focused.

Right.

And so to address this problem for individuals who've kind of been enculturated not even to open their mouths about being a Christian, let alone to live in a way that would be different from anybody else, but also churches, to help them recover their public voice in society, this idea gave birth to the Institute of Public Theology.

And so we're really excited.

We've been growing this year to the point of being able to offer bachelor's degrees all The Way to the Master of Divinity.

So, you know, I just taught a class the week before coming here to be with you here at G3, and it's coming along our entire spectrum of courses.

We're online now.

We're going.

What class did you teach?

So I taught old testament survey 1.

And a title like that, you might say.

Okay, that sounds pretty academic.

Right?

But okay.

So for the people in the room and for the streamers though, I mean, I sort of didn't know how it would go until it happened because the last time I, I TAUGHT this was 22 years ago.

But I was looking forward to it and it became what I was dreaming it would be, which is, obviously we're diving deep and there's only so much time.

You can dive deep in half of the Old Testament in a week.

But we dive a week.

Yeah.

Half of the Old Testament in a week.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah.

So there's only so deep you can go as you dive deep.

But we were selective.

Okay.

But as we're doing this, it's almost like preaching all day long, you know, because you get into the word of God in the Old Testament, which is my specialty, and you just soak in it.

Like we took a whole afternoon just for the Book of Ruth, for instance, and you discover some riches there that if you were just reading fast, just reading quickly, let's get through this, you know, let's have our 3 minute recharge kind of attitude, and this is an attitude we get from that personal piety kind of faith, then you'd miss it completely.

So it was fantastic.

This week, Tom Askell is teaching ecclesiology, the doctrine of the Church, and many theolog education programs, they actually don't have a whole course devoted to that.

But what more important class could you have for our present age where we've kind of been disappointed by how our church has acted in the last few years when faced with, from a church history standpoint, mild pressure, just really mild pressure.

And the church folded, shut the doors, locked people out for a couple years.

It's pretty embarrassing.

So the doctrine of the church is this week, and then the following week we're starting Hebrew 2.

Excited about that as well.

So of the Old Testament books that you taught through.

Yes.

Do you have a favorite one that you locked in?

That's easy.

Go ahead, go for it.

One of my specialties is the Book of Ruth.

So that's why we took an afternoon.

It's a short book.

Okay.

So if we had to spend an equal amount of time on Each page, it would be like, okay, you have to flip through the whole half of the Old Testament in a week.

Just keep going, flipping the pages.

So we slowly down and read every verse of the Book of Ruth.

And there's so much going on in there that tends not to get out to the church at large, because that's a book that tends to get confined to the women's Bible study versus being a book that's preached through, that's studied intently.

And so one of the things I say is, by the end of my actual full Ruth course that I've taught many times in the past, then it should become the men's Bible study book after a week like that.

Amen.

Amen.

I did a lot of teaching and preaching through Jonah.

You have any nuggets on the Book of Jonah for us?

Well, it's nice and short as well.

So this is one of those books that tends to get extra attention when you're doing the application of your Hebrew learning to preaching.

So, you know, it's a short book, so it can be covered in a textbook.

One thing I think is great about the Book of Jonah is you have that prayer in chapter two.

So that's different from the surrounding story.

You don't tend to focus on that prayer very much.

But if you look at what Jonah is praying, it's by no means like an imposition dropped down into the book.

It actually very much connects to where Jonah is at that moment in his not quite correct theology about what's going on, about how God has commissioned him to go to the great big bad enemy and to preach to them.

So very good book theologically.

So I'm glad to hear that you devoted that kind of attention to it.

Yeah, I had to read about 700 pages of commentary, I think 10 sermons on the book.

And just.

I knew very little about it.

When I think about what I learned.

Yes.

Really got to plumb the depths.

No pun intended.

Yes.

Well, and he certainly did.

Jonah.

Yes, he did.

But you know, something about the Book of Jonah.

As with every book in the Bible, we want to take it seriously for what it says.

You know, we want it to instruct us.

Yes.

And I saw one time a children's Bible.

Right.

And what it did with Jonah was just.

You just regret that this is done where at the end of the story, it said, and Jonah learned his lesson and understood that God loved everybody.

And, like, what are you talking about?

It ended with a question.

Yes, yes, yes.

So we need to pay attention what the Bible says, because we're not the children's story Bible, Jonah.

Right.

You know, we're the other one.

We're the Bible one.

Yeah.

They make it seem more like a Pinocchio almost, with Geppetto is in there in a raft and with a light on.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

So I'm very interested.

Public theology.

Yes.

What do we mean?

From the head to outward?

Yeah, yeah.

What do you mean?

What do we mean?

So this is a term that begs for a definition.

Right.

And so the Institute of Public Theology doesn't have the word seminary in the name.

Not because sort of we aren't doing something like that, but because we're focusing on this public theology idea.

And the idea with public theology is breaking free from the shackles of this private religion that has been foisted upon us.

That's so out of touch not only with the church in history and, well, what the church needs to be in every age, but also what the Bible says about the church.

And, you know, before coming to the Institute of Public Theology, my family and I were Cross Cultural International missionaries among the Chinese in Asia.

Really.

So if we had a private faith, we were supposed to keep to ourselves.

Well, what was that about?

I mean, you know, like God's calling to all of his church to participate in the Great Commission in some way, some direct way.

Well, that was a whole waste of time if we have this private faith.

This just meant for me.

Right.

You know, so public theology is supposed to have a public voice.

And so, you know, we feel we're just trying to be faithful in training our students and whoever God will bring to us.

And I certainly hope God will bring more people to us as a result of us talking, but to train them to regain that public voice.

And a wonderful thing is this doesn't require charisma, you know, this doesn't require special skills, actually, it doesn't require creativity to preach and teach the word of God because it's not primarily about what the person is bringing.

What primarily we should be doing when we're preaching and teaching the word of God is being a messenger of that message, a faithful messenger of that message.

The authoritative and sufficient word.

Yeah.

It makes me think again of the book of Jonah.

He said, this is the message you need to preach.

He couldn't bring his own message, couldn't alter what was given to him.

When you preached that, when you preached that, did you talk about.

He didn't even seem to be a very good preacher.

No, no, he like 40 days.

Yeah.

And Nineveh will be destroyed.

He was almost Like a Christian that you brought to the streets to evangelize, who, like, threw a gospel track over his shoulder and somebody picked it up and God saved them from it in spite of it.

I've often wondered if, as he's traipsing through Nineveh, is he preaching even in Hebrew, not even trying to be understood, you know what I mean?

Because they didn't speak Hebrew.

No, they didn't.

Right.

Ah, very good point.

Yeah.

You know, here's a small time, a small town guy in a big town city, you know, in this metropolis, but he had theology that he knew even on the ship.

He said, my God is the God that I serve, the sea in the dry land, the right God.

But then eventually God thrust him out to bring it public.

Vomits him out, Vomits him out of the mouth.

Exactly.

But he went public with it.

And many believers, like you said, they're kind of like a Joseph of Arimathea, where they're like secret disciples, so to speak.

And then Joseph came to a point where he went to Pilate and said, I want the body of Jesus at the most dangerous time, perhaps for him to ask for that body.

And yet he does.

But I feel like so many believers are kind of like that secret Joseph of Arimathea, and they don't want to go and ask for the body of Christ, the crucible, crucified Lord, and identify with him.

Why do you think that is?

Well, that's the inertia of American Christianity.

I think we're at a crisis point, a point of re evaluating Christianity as it exists in the US and I like how John MacArthur has said, you know, a lot of these churches that seem to be permanently closed down, that's a good thing.

The kind of church that would agree to be closed down for years, just keep the doors shut.

We don't need that kind of church, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, during that whole Covid thing, a lot was learned.

Yeah.

During that time.

It was a sobering time.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, I was appalled that there was certain denominations or ministries even, that attacked MacArthur for opening and keeping open, because that's where theology came to bear to say who has the authority over the church, the state.

So.

Well, the lamentable fact is, is that so many figures who had been so dependable in the past, it must be that they sort of had memorized right answers before but didn't have a basis.

Because when the true test came, which wasn't, again, wasn't that difficult.

Right.

When the true test came of what is the Right thing to do.

Utter failure on the part of many.

Utter failure.

Yeah.

Very disappointing.

And so this leads us back to.

Well, where do we go from here?

Right?

Yes.

Where do we go from here?

I think we're having this conversation at G3.

Whenever this episode should air.

That's where we're talking.

And we are really.

It's refreshing.

We're surrounded by a lot of like minded folks here.

Yes.

A lot of people who are pulling in the same direction because we see that, you know, God's apparently not done.

With us, thank God.

He could be done with our society.

Right.

He could be done with evangelicalism, business as usual, you know, but apparently God has more work for us to do.

So we're going to do it, you know, we're going to carry forth the Great Commission in our culture and not just keep it here.

We're going to do what Jesus says about going to every language, people, tribe and nation.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, we come from.

In New York City.

We have every nation tongue and tribe has come to New York City where we preach and minister.

Probably some Chinese.

There are definitely some Chinese.

Yes.

We have Asians in our church.

We have people from the Caribbean, really all over and really just a beautiful picture.

But I think sometimes believers are actually afraid to step out of their comfort zone and go to people from different ethnicities and bring them the word of God.

Yet say we believe what it says.

Every nation, tribe.

Again, the theology.

So like when I taught on Jonah, the theology in his head and his functional theology didn't seem to match and that's what it seems like.

Yeah.

You're address in public theology.

Well, and you know, you bring up ethnicity, there's a whole alternate religion that's around nowadays surrounding that exact topic.

It's a false religion.

The critical race theory religion.

Oh, absolutely.

That BLM theology that those who have.

Dreamed that false religion up are using the power of the state to grind it in everyone's faces, force them to swallow it.

Right.

Okay.

It's a golden calf.

It is an idol.

It is not the God that led us out of Egypt.

Right.

Okay.

It should be opposed with every fiber of our being in our churches as we teach the word of God.

But the thing that's so frustrating is those who had those memorized right answers before seem to fall for this with no problem when the testing time came.

And that says to me that we actually don't have a good number of people who trust in the authority and sufficiency of scripture.

They need something else.

You see what I mean?

We don't need anything else.

According to the Bible, we don't need anything else.

Yeah, well, we went in the middle of a BLM rally and preached the gospel, the justice of God.

Someone tried to steal our speaker.

There were 50 police officers protecting a building.

Yeah.

And I'm still speaking as my speaker's being carried away.

I'm walking after the guy and no police officer ever come to help me.

Yeah, that just really said something I.

Was about to say.

How'd that go?

Yeah, right.

No one helped me.

I had to go and like chase the guy down.

He said, you can't preach over here because we're having, having a protest.

So I just said, I'm a protestant, I've been protesting longer than you.

He didn't understand, you know, the tongue in cheek.

We took it right back.

And then he went and spoke to a guy from our church, unbeknownst to himself, and he said, you know, look at this guy.

He's preaching.

He's, you know, he's light skinned guy, even though I'm half Puerto Rican, you know.

So the guy said, well, you know, I'm a Christian.

And the guy from our church said, there's no way you can be a Christian.

He said, yeah, and he had a tattoo.

And he said, if you were a Christian, you would never stop or squelch the preaching of the gospel.

He said, that's my pastor is preaching.

And it was almost, it was like appalled, like, you're with him.

He said that he.

So he said, that's my brother, not you.

And that, that like spoke volumes because our guy was Trinidadian.

And, and, and so he was speaking to another black guy who stole, who tried to steal our spe.

And he was saying, you're not my brother, that's my brother.

And so he just saw the power of the gospel.

That's public theology.

I don't know, you tell me.

It seems pretty public to me as you describe that.

How can people like look into this ministry that you're doing?

Yeah.

Watch for the typos because It's a long URL.

The website instituteofpublictheology.org okay, easy enough to.

Spell, easy enough to spell.

Bell.

Well, let's pray if you would.

Close us in prayer.

We're Soul Fishing ministries.

We go on the streets.

Public theology, I guess, is what we're all about, trying to live this out and train people in biblical hermeneutics as well.

And so we're doing some of this stuff.

But we know the great importance of public theology.

And we really appreciate you being here with us.

Why don't you close in word prayer?

Let's pray then.

God, Phil and I do thank you that we've had the opportunity to talk today.

And we pray that this podcast would be a blessing to listeners and God that you had motivated more listeners to really live out their faith publicly.

Not in any abstract way, not trying to mow their lawns better or anything like that, but really, God, to have an explicit Christian witness sharing the hope that is within us because it's the only hope we have.

Jesus Christ gave his life for sinners so that trust in him would result in us being able to live with God our Father forever.

God, we need your Holy Spirit to fill us.

We pray this for our audience.

God, if there are people who are listening who have not come to faith in Christ that today would be the day of salvation.

And should it please you God, please bless the work today of Phil and his ministry and the work of the Institute of Public Theology.

We just place ourselves in your hands and we pray in Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, thank you for taking this time to stop and think about it.

If you would like to contact us, please email [email protected].

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