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S03.06 Fiji: Blue and Green Finance Pioneer
Episode 620th October 2021 • Capital Musings • UN Capital Development Fund (UNCDF)
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Esala Masitabua, Deputy Governor of Fiji’s Reserve Bank, speaks about blue and green bonds, the national financial inclusion plan, parametric insurance, and the factors that have made Fiji a regional and global leader in innovative climate finance.

Transcripts

Esther:

can hear you very clearly.

Esther:

It's really nice sound quality.

Esther:

So if you're ready, we'll get started.

Esther:

Yep.

Esther:

Okay.

Esther:

Perfect.

Esther:

Hello everyone.

Esther:

I'm Ester Pansa, head of partnerships, policy and communications at the United

Esther:

nations capital development fund.

Esther:

Welcome to season three of Capital Musings UNCDF podcast, where we focus on fresh

Esther:

ideas and new innovations that serve our mandate to make finance work for the poor.

Esther:

In the world's least developed countries, you can find our

Esther:

Capital Musings podcast on.

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Spotify or our website www dot UNCDF dot org.

Esther:

The theme of season three is the road to Doha.

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We will be exploring issues relevant to the LDCs ahead of the fifth UN

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conference on the least developed countries and Doha Qatar in 2020.

Esther:

Today, we're going back to the Pacific to speak with Isabela.

Esther:

the deputy governor of the reserve bank of Fiji.

Esther:

Fiji is not at least developed country, but is the host of the UN

Esther:

multi-country office for the Pacific and an important regional leader.

Esther:

Deputy governor, thank you so much for joining us today.

Esala:

Thank you for having me.

Esther:

Please tell us about yourself.

Esther:

Where are you from?

Esther:

What did you study and what led you to the reserve?

Esala:

The last time a Fijian.

Esala:

I grew up right here in Suva, the capital of Fiji.

Esala:

I was fortunate enough, uh, to be awarded the Australian government

Esala:

scholarship in the early nineties.

Esala:

And I studied in Griffith.

Esala:

In Brisbane, Australia.

Esala:

I think the bachelor of commerce degree, they're majoring

Esala:

in accounting and finance.

Esala:

And I completed an MBA and approves graduate diploma in economics right here

Esala:

at our university of the south Pacific.

Esala:

I joined the reserve bank in the accounting unit in 1997, and I've

Esala:

had a extremely rewarding central banking career, which is still ongoing

Esala:

and as enjoyable and rewarding.

Esala:

Now almost 25 years later.

Esther:

It's wonderful to hear that you're still enjoying

Esther:

your time at the reserve bank.

Esther:

What drew you to public finance?

Esala:

Well, I've been part of the, reserve bank, executive

Esala:

management team since 2004.

Esala:

When I assumed the role of head of currency and corporate services in

Esala:

2009, as part of capacity development, I was transferred to have Prudential

Esala:

supervision and financial stability.

Esala:

And then in 2012 as head of financial markets, and this is a

Esala:

role that is charged with leading.

Esala:

The implementation of monetary policy in the central bank.

Esala:

And in this role, I also collaborated with government on public finance.

Esala:

And I was in this role when we became only the third country ever to

Esala:

launch the develop to the green bonds.

Esala:

So that was way back so it's been part of my central banking career

Esala:

that has drawn me to public.

Esther:

And please tell us about the Maya commitments and how these impacted

Esther:

Fiji's national financial inclusion.

Esala:

The Maya commitments made under the Meijer it's played an integral role in

Esala:

our financial inclusion plans and efforts.

Esala:

So the Maya declaration was launched in Mexico in 2011.

Esala:

It's a global initiative by the Alliance for financial inclusion members,

Esala:

essentially agencies in countries that are charged with financial regulation to

Esala:

create a commitment platform on setting measurable financial inclusion targets.

Esala:

The AFI membership recognizes that a country contexts differs.

Esala:

And externally imposed top-down targets and solutions rarely work.

Esala:

So therefore each country is given the freedom to determine their own targets

Esala:

bottom-up and based on individual circumstances at the heart of, with

Esala:

the commitments, aim at delivering concrete financial inclusion outcomes

Esala:

by providing sustainable, relevant, and cost effective financial services.

Esala:

So there are a few underpinnings on these commitments and

Esala:

one is the post recognition.

Esala:

Financial inclusion is empowering and can uplift people out of poverty.

Esala:

Or the second one is their reaffirmation that we can learn from each other.

Esala:

A peer learning platform is very much a part of my commitments and the final

Esala:

one is transparency and accountability.

Esala:

we make new year's resolutions.

Esala:

I think one of the important things is that we always conveyed to

Esala:

someone to hold us accountable.

Esala:

So that's very much a part of my commitment to be when we announce

Esala:

our commitments, commit that we will help each other achieve those goals.

Esala:

And we also commit to some sort of transparency and accountability.

Esala:

So for Fiji we've, come a long way since 2009, when we started out journey and

Esala:

we would not have achieved it without support of AFI and the membership of,

Esala:

those under the Maya, that duration.

Esala:

And also we recognize the support of so many partners and stakeholders

Esala:

along the way, including the UN government agencies, financial

Esala:

inclusions, we've just concluded our demand side survey in December, 2020.

Esala:

And this follows up on an earlier demand side survey, just to track

Esala:

some of our national inclusion goals.

Esala:

And it has showed to us that we've made some progress.

Esala:

I would hesitate to say significant because I don't want to be patting

Esala:

ourselves on the back, but we've made inroads and we are all aware

Esala:

those of us who are involved in this space, our work is never done.

Esala:

It's so many challenges, so many, hurdles, and.

Esala:

the environment is always fluid.

Esala:

Whoever knew that covered with cheetahs, but we've made significant

Esala:

progress in, promoting access for financial inclusion products.

Esala:

we have, Achieve some of the goals around, youth, accessing financial

Esala:

products set up of, MSMB development.

Esala:

We've introduced with the financial institutions for the first time.

Esala:

My reporting on desegregated data, which was a huge hurdle.

Esala:

We've continued to integrate financial literacy into the school

Esala:

curriculum, and now we're looking at.

Esala:

That's reeducation.

Esala:

Digital payments have been a large part in, innovation.

Esala:

And also we were the first country to integrate or to incorporate

Esala:

inclusive green finance questions in our demand side survey.

Esala:

So it provides some baseline for us going forward.

Esala:

So in 2016, when we hosted the AFI global policy forum, we made

Esala:

some commitments on Greenfield.

Esala:

And that is to work with our partners in developing and promoting

Esala:

sustainable business models.

Esala:

So it's been a long journey.

Esala:

We still are on the way, but the, my declaration and our partnership

Esala:

with the UN beefy AFI has played an important role in whatever little sector.

Esala:

Achieved so far.

Esther:

Thank you very much, sir.

Esther:

And I think you're being modest because we know that, for example,

Esther:

just one of those examples that you cited, the, financial literacy being

Esther:

incorporated into the curriculum.

Esther:

I believe it's in the entire primary school curriculum of

Esther:

Fiji from kindergarten all the way through high school.

Esther:

And that is quite an accomplishment.

Esther:

So congratulations on that.

Esther:

So sir, many of our listeners may not be familiar with Fiji.

Esther:

I wonder if you could give us a general sense of how big the economy is, what

Esther:

the population is and what percentage of the population you're trying to

Esther:

reach with the financial inclusion plan

Esala:

enough financial inclusion plan.

Esala:

Our, goal was to reach, around, 85% of, our doubt population.

Esala:

around 600,000 or total population is, just, around 900,000.

Esala:

So very small.

Esala:

So our target is to reach 85% by 2020 and at least 50% of which, Agenda women.

Esala:

And, from the last DSS survey we had achieved around 81%.

Esala:

So just under our goal, but 75% doubt women.

Esala:

So we've, achieved progress on the gender inclusion.

Esther:

Congratulations.

Esther:

And I know you were citing earlier that desegregated data was one of the.

Esther:

Advances that were brought by the Maya commitments.

Esther:

And we know from UNCDF work, how important it is to to dis-aggregate data by gender

Esther:

in order to track that key indicator of how many women are being served.

Esther:

So thank you for paying attention to that.

Esther:

So you had mentioned the green bonds.

Esther:

please tell us more about the reserve bank's approach to green

Esther:

finance and also blue finance.

Esala:

Thank you.

Esala:

So arising from the reserve Bence mandate to develop the financial system and

Esala:

drive the financial inclusion agenda.

Esala:

We've been working on, uh, several, initiatives.

Esala:

I think, the term that you use now is cross-cutting like we have a mandate

Esala:

as a central bank are no different to many other central banks as It's the

Esala:

build Montre stability and financial stability, but eel, cross cutting

Esala:

across that, we've been able to integrate some of our approaches to

Esala:

achieve green finance and to finance.

Esala:

And some of these that includes using what we call convening power

Esala:

within the economy to bring together stakeholders, to talk about this

Esala:

issue and to come to some, concrete, collaboration increased our capacity.

Esala:

So we engage stakeholders in a private public partnership, a case in point

Esala:

is the recent collaboration with, UNCDF, Pacific climate adaptation.

Esala:

Not as Shiva man, his team on achieving the paramedic insurance product.

Esala:

I mean, that's just, a resounding indication of what can be achieved.

Esala:

So that's one of the key approaches is trying to use our credibility.

Esala:

Convening power within the country to bring together stakeholders and to, foster

Esala:

the goals of, blue and green finance.

Esala:

The other thing is, we'll try to align our strategies.

Esala:

To the government's plans.

Esala:

You would be aware that the government is, no very vocal, on green and blue finance.

Esala:

and it's been incorporated in their national development goals.

Esala:

And we try to align now and be strategies, accordingly capacity building, as

Esala:

I mentioned, and awareness is an important, part of our approach to green.

Esala:

And blue finance strengthening data collection.

Esala:

As I mentioned, we've included it in the demand side survey for the first

Esala:

time, some questions on inclusive, green finance, and that provides a baseline, but

Esala:

that's an important approach to, the Bruin green finance initiatives of collecting

Esala:

data and also the support of, innovation.

Esala:

Innovation probably cuts across all spheres and innovation is one

Esala:

of the key ingredients that will help us achieve a lot of these

Esala:

technology has improved so much.

Esala:

And as we've seen with the paramedic insurance, innovation

Esala:

and technologies, is where we can make significant, leaps and bounds.

Esala:

So that's another.

Esala:

Approach that we've taken and we've, totally supported,

Esala:

innovation, wherever it pops up.

Esala:

And just finally, linking back to the Maya commitments is, international

Esala:

commitments and endorsements We on this in and posting international commitments.

Esala:

And that's something that holds us accountable and also shows to the

Esala:

world that we don't only, whine about this issue, but we are willing

Esala:

to put our money where our mouth.

Esther:

Thank you so much.

Esther:

Deputy governor for that comprehensive answer.

Esther:

I think this would be a good time to go into some definitions.

Esther:

So could you please tell us what is green finance?

Esther:

What is blue finance and what is inclusive?

Esther:

Green finance.

Esala:

K green finance as were there's still a lot of, development or agreement

Esala:

that has to support it's taxonomy or.

Esala:

Exactly defined.

Esala:

But during the, development of our green bonds, we've, helped, along the way by

Esala:

IFC and green finance is just ensuring that we raise funds to address some

Esala:

of the issues around climate change.

Esala:

And as we've seen with our green bonds, one of the stark realization

Esala:

that we came across is there's most of the projects that we had narrowed

Esala:

down to meet with, the best practices, globally accepted at the time was that

Esala:

most of these projects are led us to adaptation rather than mitigation.

Esala:

So that was something that we've learned.

Esala:

So green finance is basically trying to channel finance into helping, initiatives

Esala:

projects that, will help in the mitigation or the adaptation to climate change.

Esala:

Lou finances to do with the oceans.

Esala:

it's the G 14 life below the ocean.

Esala:

So I think in the past, since our involvement his, presidency of cope, we've

Esala:

highlighted the issue of oceans because.

Esala:

Oh, the Pacific it's an integral part.

Esala:

And there's increasing realization that healthy oceans lead to

Esala:

a healthy global atmosphere.

Esala:

So blue finance would lead to any type of financing that we can direct towards,

Esala:

not maintaining the sustainability of the oceans and just inclusive green finance.

Esala:

It's the latest, edition of trying to ensure that green finance doesn't

Esala:

just include large projects, but it makes a difference to the lives of

Esala:

those at the bottom of the pyramid.

Esala:

Those that we are trying to reach with, financial inclusions

Esala:

uplift out of poverty.

Esala:

And I think, again, the paramedic insurance is a perfect

Esala:

example of how we can bring.

Esala:

Those types of solutions.

Esala:

So any type of finance that will support initiatives to bring climate

Esala:

mitigation or primary adaptation measures or financial services down

Esala:

to the last mile, that's, something that we would consider inclusive.

Esala:

Green finance is available to anyone.

Esther:

Thank you very much, sir.

Esther:

That's very helpful to have those definitions.

Esther:

So you've mentioned a few times now the parametric insurance product that you

Esther:

developed in Fiji with the support of our excellent UNCDF colleagues based there.

Esther:

I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about.

Esala:

Yes, the paramedic insurance is amongst the most innovative solution.

Esala:

As I've mentioned, it's a collaboration between government UNCDF.

Esala:

Again, as I mentioned, Pacific insurance and prime adaptation program, the gap

Esala:

and the private insurance companies.

Esala:

You mustn't forget the assistance in this and the digital service

Esala:

providers, the reserving.

Esala:

Was able to, assist in the development and pilot team and the testing

Esala:

of his index-based microinsurance product that targets farmers,

Esala:

fishers, small businesses, market vendors, and other vulnerable groups.

Esala:

So the product pitch is considered is the first amongst the small island

Esala:

nations in the Pacific or small island states our office Pooka.

Esala:

Do help affected households respond to cyclones and flood risk.

Esala:

So both carry a maximum coverage of a $1,000 Fijian dollars.

Esala:

That's around, 500 us with annual premiums of around a hundred dollars Fijian.

Esala:

And that equates to less than $2 a week.

Esala:

So something we feel is manageable for these households, Fijian

Esala:

households that are vulnerable.

Esala:

To the devastation of future storms can afford a financial shield.

Esala:

And this also means they don't need to wait for government assistance, but

Esala:

instead they will have the assistance available in a much shorter timeframe

Esala:

through the paramedic insurance covers.

Esala:

So I believe there is, based, stones technology solutions on

Esala:

the back end that will implement.

Esala:

the payment option and all the, ability to discern who's eligible to

Esala:

be, paid or the cover to be paid out.

Esther:

So this is private insurance for individual.

Esala:

Yes, it's private insurance and it's, because of the technology,

Esala:

I believe it's able to reduce the cost significantly to make it accessible.

Esala:

and because it's linked to technology that, enables some sort of plotting

Esala:

of where the areas affected, the dispensers with a lot of, administrative

Esala:

and hurdles that build up costs around a disbursement of the claims.

Esther:

Thank you for explaining that.

Esther:

That sounds indeed like a fantastic product to help build

Esther:

the resilience of communities and families to climate change impacts.

Esther:

We know that Fiji, like many island states is very vulnerable to climate

Esther:

change impacts and in fact, keep suffering the impacts of climate change.

Esther:

So this sounds like a fantastic tool.

Esther:

The micro level or the individual or community level,

Esther:

what are some policy tools?

Esther:

The government is exploring to reduce the risks of climate

Esther:

change on a policy or a national.

Esala:

Well On the government level, as I mentioned, government

Esala:

has been very active in this space.

Esala:

And I think most important one that's on the table right now.

Esala:

So climate change bill, if the primary purpose of the bill, we

Esala:

hope to bring together, but to provide a comprehensive response for

Esala:

climate change and how to implement.

Esala:

International commitments and obligations to reduce carbon

Esala:

dioxide and greenhouse emissions.

Esala:

So it will seek to provide that framework to incentivize collaboration

Esala:

and partnership between the government civil society and the private sector.

Esala:

So the bill, I think it's still in its consultation phase with, parliament,

Esala:

but it hopes to introduce some of the innovative, climate litigation adaptation.

Esala:

And . But in 2012 government, they put in place a national climate change policy

Esala:

to address the impact of climate change.

Esala:

And it has also gone through a few reviews as the environment is changed

Esala:

and linked to this is a government five-year and 20 year development plan.

Esala:

And also.

Esala:

Link into our commitments on sustainable development goals.

Esala:

And they are also linked to a tax incentives for environmentally friendly,

Esala:

motor vehicles and the like, and also Sanctions on environmental degradation.

Esala:

So there's a whole raft of measures that government, has put in place to support,

Esala:

climate, commitments and the climate G.

Esther:

Thank you, sir.

Esther:

Sounds very comprehensive, indeed, and very effective for the government

Esther:

to be planning on such a holistic and comprehensive level for the entire,

Esther:

economy and nation to be shifting to these climate change impacts what a

Esther:

great example for the rest of the world.

Esther:

Especially as we are looking at.

Esther:

Big commitments that countries are making during the climate week of the UN.

Esther:

And of course, looking ahead to the cop in November, I wonder if you

Esther:

can tell us sir, about the Fiji blue bond and then also as a wider context

Esther:

question, what is it about Fiji and the policy environment that has allowed

Esther:

such a small state to be so innovative around some of these financial tools?

Esala:

So the blue bond is probably on the back of our green bond issue,

Esala:

the success of our green bond in 2017.

Esala:

And we seen how the impact that it has had in a furthering, at least the conversation

Esala:

on climate change and highlighting the plight of, especially us in the Pacific

Esala:

for Fiji to be able to launch those green bonds, we constantly state in

Esala:

the Pacific and all small, most small island states that we are the ones who

Esala:

are suffering the most at the coalface as they call it of climate change.

Esala:

And, we are the one who probably, as the science tells us, contributing the least.

Esala:

So.

Esala:

for a nation that's facing the brunt of that.

Esala:

And to be able to launch a green the green bonds, speaks for him.

Esala:

and based on that success, we thought at that time, that probably blue bonds is the

Esala:

other development that we could pursue.

Esala:

We understand that, Seychelles, has done it and we've looked at their

Esala:

experience and, we've collaborating with some of the partners, to try

Esala:

and see if we can, develop these in the, not too distant future.

Esala:

So on the question of, how we are able to do it, This goes to um, uh,

Esala:

principles, a priest once, shared with us.

Esala:

And I've never forget from years ago is, three principles in

Esala:

life or in anything that you do.

Esala:

And I think this has held true when I reflect on our journey on the green

Esala:

bonds, in some of these developments.

Esala:

And that three principles is one that you try to make a start.

Esala:

The second principle is to keep at it and the third one.

Esala:

Is to build to last.

Esala:

And I think there's a lot of, willingness across the segments of

Esala:

society just requires the wheel and the courage to bring this together.

Esala:

I think from the green bonds, we had some excellent, technical

Esala:

expertise, in IFC and, Just for us.

Esala:

The timing was right with the presidency of co-op and I think that's, as we

Esala:

plot along our life as policymakers, sometimes we recognize that,

Esala:

circumstances outside us are colluding to provide the perfect environment.

Esala:

And we have to recognize these, instances.

Esala:

They are people that are placed sometimes.

Esala:

Like this paramedic insurance, there's a lot of moving parts, but without

Esala:

specific people in place there, and we all share the same, vision,

Esala:

it just requires some, Goodwill or some, ability to bring together and

Esala:

to be able to capitalize on this.

Esala:

So that's basically the sharing that I have.

Esala:

I'm sure.

Esala:

I've in network.

Esala:

We do collaborate and help each other.

Esala:

And also share this a lot of Goodwill across the segments of society,

Esala:

whether it be NGLs, UN, world bank.

Esala:

There are people there that are working towards a mutually inclusive

Esala:

goals, and it's just a matter of recognizing and bringing them together.

Esala:

And then we'll be able to achieve, mutually beneficial outcomes.

Esther:

Thank you very much, sir.

Esther:

And especially as you point out from the perspective of a resident of a Pacific

Esther:

island, which has done almost nothing to contribute to climate change, but

Esther:

bears the harshest brunt of the impacts.

Esther:

We were saying in some panels here at the United nations today, that

Esther:

that's one of the great inequities of.

Esther:

LDCs and SIDS and other vulnerable countries that they have contributed so

Esther:

little to the problem, but they have the fewest resources to deal with the problem

Esther:

and are bearing the brunt of it the most.

Esther:

So thank you so much for your flexibility and your forbearance and your creativity

Esther:

in coming up with these solutions to these problems that the world has helped

Esther:

create and now, should help you solve.

Esther:

What can other small island developing states or SIDS and least developed

Esther:

countries, or LDCs learn from Fiji's approach to important policy questions

Esther:

about green and blue finance and even approaches to policy like

Esther:

the national climate change plan?

Esala:

Well, From Fiji's experience, I think, as I mentioned, the stakeholder

Esala:

awareness bringing together Important players, government, the central bank.

Esala:

they need to be at the forefront and to use, to bring these places

Esala:

together as they could awareness.

Esala:

And also capacity building is important.

Esala:

We started on our roadmap for bringing the financial sector in before 2017.

Esala:

And we quickly found out that, we needed the help.

Esala:

And so we are able to tap into some resources and host a workshop

Esala:

that brought together a lot of partners from across the world.

Esala:

This is just before COVID.

Esala:

So I think stakeholder awareness and capacity building is an important

Esala:

lesson that we've learned alignment to national development goals.

Esala:

And.

Esala:

ensure that you see what the government is trying to achieve.

Esala:

Take the national goals.

Esala:

I think, governments all over the world, they churn out, policies,

Esala:

laws, and it's, for us, other segments of society to tap into that and see

Esala:

how best we can, bring them to life.

Esala:

So the alignment to national development plans, this system having a sustainable,

Esala:

or having a framework, a plan.

Esala:

And as I mentioned, just to make a start sometime we, it's an overused term.

Esala:

I know a low hanging fruits, but if we make quick wins, you

Esala:

are able to generate momentum.

Esala:

So that's another important lesson that we've learned.

Esala:

constantly surveilling, to see a roadblocks or hurdles.

Esala:

It's not an easy thing because, we all aware that once we went into

Esala:

this space, we find that we are constantly balancing a lot of, issues.

Esala:

There are some, say for instance, Forestry some of the sectors or industries

Esala:

in the economy may suffer short-term because of, policies taken to address,

Esala:

green finance and climate change.

Esala:

But I think, having a long-term, View is always very important

Esala:

and, it's very, very difficult.

Esala:

And probably one of the greatest challenge is balancing that long-term

Esala:

view with a short pain of the shut them adjustment, segments of society you

Esala:

have to make, but it's something that must be done having a long-term view.

Esala:

And, the, just the final one is another well use that term

Esala:

that no one size fits all.

Esala:

We have to tailor, make whatever solutions to suit your particular

Esala:

circumstances in your country.

Esther:

Thank you very much, sir.

Esther:

Words of wisdom all, and I love these three principles.

Esther:

Make a start, keep at it and build to last.

Esther:

I think those will be very useful for many of our listeners, whether

Esther:

in policy or government or private sector, wherever they work.

Esther:

So as we look to wrap up, deputy governor, if there was one thing you could do to

Esther:

support small island, developing states to deal with climate change, what would it.

Esala:

I think I have to say it's, going back to this issue that we talked

Esala:

about, that a small island states contribute the least to this problem.

Esala:

And I know that we constantly talk about the ease and the access to resources.

Esala:

To be able to mitigate or to adapt to this, issue of climate change.

Esala:

So I'll have to say that it's how best we can, reduce some of these, requirements.

Esala:

I do understand being a central banker for 25 years and being involved in government

Esala:

policy all this time, we do understand the difficulties around, providing

Esala:

finance across countries across borders and the, fungibility of money these are

Esala:

taxpayers dollars at the end of the day.

Esala:

And I know a taxpayer out in Australia.

Esala:

The United States would want to ensure that it's directed to the right place.

Esala:

So there are all these type of requirements that are designed to allay

Esala:

those type of fees, but something needs to be done to ensure that there is a better

Esala:

flow of, capital to where it's needed.

Esala:

to countries such as, those in the Pacific or the small island states to

Esala:

help with the issue of climate change.

Esala:

uh, one time we were discussing of how a rich country like to bike

Esala:

and just create, Out of nowhere.

Esala:

And then we have some in the specific that are sinking.

Esala:

So maybe the issue of funding.

Esala:

So if I were to do something or if you would have had to ask me, the

Esala:

one thing that I would do, and it would probably have a look at how we

Esala:

can channel those, assistance a bit quicker to be less honorous on some

Esala:

of these countries in accessing.

Esala:

funding and technical expertise to be able to address some of the challenges

Esala:

they are facing real challenges, three location, and the light.

Esther:

Thank you, sir.

Esther:

It's interesting.

Esther:

How many people on this podcast from very, very different backgrounds say

Esther:

they would improve access to finance and maybe it's because it's a UNCDF podcast.

Esther:

That seems to be the answer to many of the problems people face.

Esther:

But I think to your point about the tax payer in the United States, I think.

Esther:

us citizens should consider the fact that the United States has 5% of the

Esther:

world's population, but we use 25% of the world's energy and emit a disproportionate

Esther:

amount of the carbon emissions.

Esther:

So.

Esther:

I think the shift in thinking is that American taxpayers should be paying

Esther:

to help Fiji and other Pacific island states adapt to climate change because

Esther:

we have helped cause this problem much more so than citizens of Fiji.

Esther:

So, we'll put that out there and see what happens in the debate.

Esther:

But deputy governor, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all

Esther:

of your insights from your long and distinguished career in public service.

Esala:

Thank you very much yesterday I think if, all the taxpayers think like

Esala:

you we will be able to achieve, that goal.

Esala:

Thank you for having me.

Esala:

Thank you so much.

Esther:

Thank you for joining us.

Esther:

And I think if we could offer everyone a trip to Fiji as a reward

Esther:

for being a global citizen and thinking about climate change, then,

Esther:

they would certainly agree with me.

Esther:

Thank you very much to our audience as well for joining us

Esther:

on UNCDF podcast, Capital Musings.

Esther:

Once again, you can find us on apple, Spotify, and our

Esther:

website www dot UNCDF dot org.

Esther:

If you found this episode useful, please spread the word on Twitter.

Esther:

Hashtag Capital Musings, or leave us a review on iTunes reviews.

Esther:

Help new listeners discover our podcast.

Esther:

So if you enjoyed listening, please leave a review.

Esther:

Thanks.

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