Shownotes
Prepare to be inspired as we sit down with the extraordinary Michael Tyler, the man behind the message of acceptance and self-love in the acclaimed "Girls of the World Doing More Than Ever Before." Michael, alongside his co-author Lindsay Davis, has crafted a book that not only soared to the New York Times bestseller list but also ignites a spark of empowerment within young readers, particularly girls. We unpack the essence of their collaboration, the creative process that led to their book's success, and how their work is sculpting the character of our future generation. Join us for a conversation brimming with heartfelt dedication to the power of purposeful children's literature and the promise it holds for a more inclusive world.
Amidst a culture rife with labels and expectations, we open up about the journey to understanding and embracing LGBT identities. The discussion transcended into a broader reflection on the role of parents in breaking societal molds, nurturing their children's individuality, and fostering an environment where love is the bedrock of acceptance. This episode is a heartfelt testament to the unwavering bond between parent and child, and a reminder that our most profound duty is to nurture a world where every child can flourish, free from the constraints of labels and stereotypes.
About our Guest:
Michael Tyler is a writer, speaker, and author of The Skin You Live In and Mirror Face, children's books about acceptance and self-love. He advises educators on DEI and SEL curriculum, and has addressed forums for The Kin Centre, the Clinton Foundation, and Beyond Differences. He resides in Chicago.
Learn more about Michael and his books at https://michaeltylerwrites.com/
Connect with Heather:
The Perfect Holiday Gift! Give a copy of Heather's new book, Parenting with Pride.
Get Your *free* Holiday Survival Guide
Access the course, Learning to Parent with Pride!
Work with Heather one-on-one or bring her into your organization to speak or run a workshop!
Please subscribe to, rate, and review Just Breathe. And, as always, please share with anyone who needs to know they are not alone!
Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
Takeaways:
- Michael Tyler emphasizes the importance of acceptance and self-love in personal development.
- Parents should actively support their LGBTQ children, becoming engineers of their identity construction.
- The book 'Girls of the World' aims to empower girls and highlight their potential.
- The conversation highlights the shared struggles of marginalized groups in society.
- Understanding the humanity of all individuals is essential for fostering acceptance and love.
- Tyler reflects on his unique experiences that shaped his perspectives on identity and acceptance.
Transcripts
Welcome to Just Breathe.
Michael Tyler:I am so very happy that you are here today.
Michael Tyler:Today we have just a really, really extraordinary guest.
Michael Tyler:He is the co author of the brand new book that is called Girls of the World Doing more than ever before.
Michael Tyler:His name is Michael Tyler.
Michael Tyler:He wrote this book with Lindsay Davis.
Michael Tyler:And oh my goodness, are you in for a treat with this interview with this discuss that we get to have.
Michael Tyler:Michael is a writer, a speaker, and the author of the Skin youn Live in and Mirror Face as well.
Michael Tyler:And he is also the co author of another book with Lindsay.
Michael Tyler:And he talks, as you will see, but his whole purpose in life and what he talks about is acceptance and self love.
Michael Tyler:He advises educators on DEI and SEL curriculum and has addressed forums for the King center, the Clinton foundation, the Rockefeller foundation, and Beyond Differences.
Michael Tyler:So without further ado, I am so delighted to bring you this discussion with Michael Tyler.
Heather Hester:Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester:My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather Hester:I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester:Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester:Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.
Michael Tyler:Michael, welcome.
Michael Tyler:Welcome to the show.
Michael Tyler:I'm so delighted that you are here to talk to my really beautiful audience today and to share about your new book, which I just heard just hit the New York Times bestseller list.
Michael Tyler:Congratulations.
Michael Tyler:That is huge.
Annette:Big thanks, Annette.
Annette:It is huge for any writer of any genre, of any age group to be able to reach that kind of an accolade, that acknowledgement.
Annette:It validates all of the lonely hours you spend.
Annette:But for me, it's also an affirmation of what my intent is for writing because I'm one of those writers who I'm less about writing stories and more about writing messages because I have an interest in whatever it is that I put out into the world, particularly as it pertains to children.
Annette:It's going to have some effect on what character they develop.
Annette:I grew up coming into civil rights era where content of character was always foremost a focus in my development.
Annette:And I, and that's what my approach has always been to writing for children is how am I contributing to the content of the character?
Annette:So when something like the New York Times bestsellers list says you did a good job of contributing to the content of the character, I feel good about that.
Michael Tyler:Yes, I would say so.
Michael Tyler:I would say so.
Michael Tyler:So just so everyone knows the full title of this beautiful book, which, oh, my goodness, is just gorgeous, as well as the content is beautiful.
Michael Tyler:It is called Girls of the World Doing More than ever Before.
Michael Tyler:So this is the second book that you and Lindsay Davies have written together.
Michael Tyler:Can you talk a little bit about.
Michael Tyler:I'd love to hear more about this book and then kind of bigger picture about the two of you writing together, why you've chosen to do this and kind of what you're trying to, what message you're really wanting to put out into the world.
Annette:Well, I think Lindsey is in accord with me in terms of actually doing message content material.
Annette:Lindsay approached me to do this book, Girls of the World, after we had done the book we did last year, the Smallest Part of the Dot.
Annette:And so I went back up to that book because we had known each other for two or three years before we decided to actually get involved in a writing project.
Annette:Lindsay had a couple of books remaining on a book contract deal that she had done already, but she wanted to do something that was different than what she had previously read.
Annette:And she had four books that had done very well.
Annette:And she had the experience where she was talking to some individuals and some students in a classroom, and part of the discussion turned to divisions and society and race, and she was introducing to them the concept of the Human Genome Project, in which a truth that came from the Human Genome project is that 99.9% of all human beings are genetically identical, which is a fascinating thing.
Annette:So what if we had a world based upon understanding that?
Annette:Right, right.
Annette:One tenth of 1% makes this difference.
Annette:And so Lindsay contacted me after she had that outing with the.
Annette:With the school and said that she was so excited about how excited they were to learn that that she just knew that this had to be some kind of book, and that's how A Small Spot of the Dot came to be.
Annette:And it was after that one was done that the.
Annette:The simplicity of how we work together was such that she said, well, you know, I've got one more book I want to.
Annette:I want to consider you to join me on doing.
Annette:Which was an immediate.
Annette:Yes, and of course, and why not for me?
Annette:And she said that she really wanted to do a book that spoke to girls, a book that spoke to the development of Their own identity and their own sense of self.
Annette:And that's something that I had always wanted to do.
Annette:I was always reluctant to write that book on my own because I never wanted to be accused of mansplaining that issue.
Annette:And so I always felt that if I ever did that project, it required me to have a co author who was female.
Annette:And Lindsay and I had already proved that we knew how to run a fast dunk.
Annette:So that's what it was.
Annette:It was a pass.
Annette:And there it was.
Annette:And it was a joy to write.
Annette:It was fun.
Annette:We were on the same page right off the bat, as we were the first time around.
Annette:And it was just easy putting everything together, putting the concept together.
Annette:The one thing that I give Lindsay credit for is that she has a very pure sense of what it is that she wants to convey.
Annette:And she definitely has trust that I can find the concepts and the words to work with her to get that to become verbalized.
Annette:And it's not a difficult thing for us to do, to come together.
Annette:Working with her is the easiest thing that I've had in terms of collaboration with anybody.
Annette:This piece of cake.
Michael Tyler:That's so nice.
Michael Tyler:You're very lucky.
Annette:Yeah, very lucky.
Michael Tyler:I'm really, really lucky.
Michael Tyler:So are you the one who has the talent with being able to rhyme and to really bring things together in such a poetic.
Michael Tyler:Just the way it's, you know, it's written is so beautiful and so pleasant to read.
Annette:Thank you for saying that.
Annette:Yeah, that is something that.
Annette:I do have an actor.
Annette:Lindsay and I happen to like the same child poets we were.
Annette:We're both big Shel Silverstein fans.
Annette:We're both big Dr.
Annette:Seuss fans.
Annette:So we both have that kind of lyrical DNA in our minds.
Annette:And so when we sit down to write, I think we both bring that.
Annette:It informs how we write.
Annette:But I am very adept at doing things quickly.
Annette:I have a huge amount of words swimming around in my head, and I can just reach out and grab them.
Annette:But that lyricism, the poetic lyricism, that's always in my mind, no matter what it is I'm thinking about.
Annette:I tend to phrase things even if I'm writing prose.
Annette:People have often said that when I'm writing prose, it's very lyrical.
Annette:I just had that sort of rhythm in my head.
Annette:And the subject matter that Lindsay and I were tackling was so dear to us.
Annette:We were so impassioned about that.
Annette:It just became easy to bring it out.
Michael Tyler:That is a gift.
Michael Tyler:I mean, really, really a gift.
Michael Tyler:Oh, my goodness.
Michael Tyler:I hope you both Realize that.
Michael Tyler:I mean, just individually, but then as a team, that is really, really extraordinary.
Michael Tyler:You're very lucky that you found each other.
Annette:You were lucky.
Annette:We're lucky.
Annette:We realize that.
Annette:Yes.
Michael Tyler:Oh, my goodness.
Michael Tyler:So, you know, my audience is pretty niched as well.
Michael Tyler:A lot of people who listen to my show are parents and allies of LGBTQ kids, youth, adolescents, young adults.
Michael Tyler:So this is definitely.
Michael Tyler:You know, when I.
Michael Tyler:This came into my inbox, and I was like, oh, you know, not a direct translation, but definitely a parallel.
Michael Tyler:Right.
Michael Tyler:Like, there's a lot of stuff here that I love and is so beautiful.
Michael Tyler:And so I'm wondering if you, you know, just some words of wisdom that can translate from what you wrote in this book, from what you shared in this book to a parent who might be just beginning this journey with their child.
Annette:I think that there are a lot of overlays, because whenever you're looking at any individual who's part of a group that is marginalized or disparaged on a broad scale in society, many of the issues that they confront are the same issues that others and other demographics confront as well, because the overall issue is the dehumanization of that person.
Annette:And so you can be African American in a racial caste system in America, and you're dehumanized.
Annette:You can be poor in a society that favors wealth, and you can be dehumanized.
Annette:You look at the caste system in India, for example, one of the most dehumanizing systems of apartheid anywhere.
Annette:And so when you look at children who grow up lgbtq, they are constantly dealing with not only the peril of their own psychology of constantly questioning themselves, correct, undermining their own value, because they're not finding value anywhere, even oftentimes not in their own home.
Michael Tyler:That's right.
Annette:But the greater pressure comes from the peers that they're with because they can't find community, which is essential.
Annette:If you're going to have any sense of belonging, you need to find that community with your peers.
Annette:And so their sense of dehumanization can be far more.
Annette:Have a far more gravity to it, because as young people, they are yet not equipped to handle that, to emotionally deflect that or psychologically deflect that.
Annette:And for parents who really are allies, I always say that they need to become more than allies, because you can be an ally and be passive.
Annette:To me, they need to be active engineers in the identity construction of their own children.
Annette:I have a son who's gay, and I knew that he was before he was 2 years old.
Annette:I knew that he was.
Annette:And at the time that I realized that, I actually took some delight in knowing it.
Annette:I did.
Annette:Because I didn't grow up with homosexual anxieties.
Annette:I didn't grow up, it's strange to say that because I'm a kid in the 60s, but my mother was very open to lots of people and she worked with a lot of individuals in fashion design.
Annette:And so I got to meet a lot of people who were in the LGBT community community and had a comfort level with it right off the bat.
Annette:Also, by the time I was 15 years old, I developed a fascination for life sciences, part of which was genetics and evolutionary biology.
Annette:And I started doing a lot of reading of research that was coming out of the Salk Institute out in California.
Annette:And much of what they were concentrating on was trying to understand if there was a biological genetic substrate for homosexuality, same sex attraction.
Annette:And finding out that there actually was, it legitimized the biology of it all.
Annette:And one of the things that I came to understand and what I'm saying, I'm saying because I hope parents who are listening are picking up on the point I'm making with all this information is that this is what you need to know if you want to help your child.
Annette:Okay.
Annette:Because if you, if you don't take it from the approach that I'm suggesting that you might take it from, what ends up happening is you become susceptible to the social pressures out there because you're trying to fit in where everybody else is trying to tell you you should be.
Annette:And that's the last thing you can do when it comes to your own child.
Annette:So When I was 15, I was learning, for example, that about 8% of all animals will exhibit some sort of same sex attraction.
Annette:And then even a similar amount will exhibit hermaphroditic presentation.
Annette:And in humans, we consider that art term out to be intersex because hermaphrodites actually have functioning organs where intersex stealth.
Annette:They may have don't do a presentation, but not functioning.
Michael Tyler:Right.
Annette:And so what that told me at that young age was that there was no set determination, a binary determination of what sexual presentation was or what sexuality was.
Annette:That it existed on a gradation and that I saw it at that young age as frontier of understanding what human, the human animal was about.
Annette:Because we didn't understand this at all, because we already had a fixed notion on what it was.
Annette:And we were just going to run with that and make everybody fall into that category.
Annette:So from early on, teenage years on, I never fell into that.
Annette:I never Felt that I had to subsidize an understanding of that.
Annette:I was always fighting people with that.
Annette:I ended up having a very lonely teenage life.
Annette:But what it made me when I realized that my son at a very early age was gay, is it made me immediately.
Annette:And this was not something I had to make a conscious decision to do.
Annette:It made me immediately embrace him as I would any other child.
Annette:It made me immediately embrace all of his humanity.
Annette:Because I didn't see it as being an apparition.
Annette:I didn't see it as being a perversion.
Annette:I didn't see it as being a choice.
Annette:I saw it as being an element of who he is.
Annette:When I look at people and listen to people describe their sexuality, I don't hear it any differently than if you were to describe yourself as a person who wore glasses, or if you were a person who had blonde hair, or if you were a person who was 5 foot 8.
Annette:To me, it's a very benign adjective that describes who you are.
Annette:And I think if parents out there were to start off with that as a foundational and a fundamental understanding of how to think about their relationship with their child, they wouldn't find it to be complex at all.
Michael Tyler:Right, Right.
Annette:So that's what I would recommend they start off with doing that.
Annette:It's not that hard.
Michael Tyler:Well, it's not that hard.
Michael Tyler:It's like saying you love your child unconditionally.
Annette:Yeah.
Annette:You just have to.
Annette:Part of what your love unconditionally is, is that you have to love.
Annette:The way I term it is, you have to love with power.
Annette:And what I mean by that is, is that you have to love knowing that you have to give them the strength to prevail and exist in a society that more likely is going to aggress against them.
Annette:There's more likely going to antagonize against them.
Annette:Now, my mother had to do that raising African American children.
Annette:So what I say is there's an overlay between the dehumanization of people, Regardless of what demographic they happen to fall into, then it's the same.
Annette:So my mother had to love us with power.
Annette:She had to give us that internal strength, that internal power, and that truly fully embracing and accepting who your child is.
Annette:Because if you don't, they're always going to think that there's something wrong with them coming from their own parents.
Annette:Right.
Annette:And you're the people, mom and dad.
Annette:And people have to give them their greatest sense of self, their greatest sense of certainty.
Annette:And so if you're operating with the thought Any thought at all, any doubt, any hesitancy that some element of your child is something is abnormal or something that delegitimizes their humanity, then you're.
Annette:You're crippling them.
Annette:You're going to harm them in some kind of way.
Annette:And so I look at it again.
Annette:I look at sexuality as a benign characteristic.
Annette:You know, I wear a size 13 shoe.
Annette:That person over there happens to like men.
Annette:And these men, I don't see it any differently.
Annette:I never have seen it.
Annette:This is the problem when you take the religious intent, give it a political cause, and then you use it to persecute people.
Annette:And so I don't have that problem, that complication.
Michael Tyler:No, you do not.
Michael Tyler:That was so beautifully said.
Michael Tyler:I feel like we should.
Michael Tyler:That was kind of a drop the mic moment.
Michael Tyler:Had it there.
Michael Tyler:We're done.
Michael Tyler:All right.
Michael Tyler:You really don't know how to improve or add to that.
Michael Tyler:I mean, bestselling author who is just extraordinary.
Michael Tyler:Oh, my gosh, you just made my.
Michael Tyler:Really made my entire day.
Michael Tyler:Thank you so much.
Annette:I appreciate you saying that.
Annette:But as I caution everybody, I can't talk the ears off an elephant, so we can go on and on.
Annette:For example, I remember growing up and my mother having worked with individuals who put on fashion shows and did garments and so forth, and having met a few men who were in that business.
Annette:And at the time, I was one of the sectors that they could go into where they actually earn income was fashion, and it was beauty, and it was cosmetics, and it was hairstyling and so forth.
Annette:So they were the ones who really were the experts at putting together fashion shows, which oftentimes were fundraisers for organizations in my neighborhood, in my community.
Annette:And so I got to meet a lot of these men and I got to befriend a lot of them.
Annette:And I always found them to be fascinating because there was a vitality to them that I just didn't see in other people.
Annette:But I came to understand them also to be individuals who found their own community.
Annette:And I got to be invited into that community to really understand who they were as people.
Annette:And so growing up, I was around them a lot, and I saw the person.
Annette:I didn't see the thing because that's what society wants to do with people it doesn't like.
Annette:It wants to call them a thing instead of realizing that they are a person.
Michael Tyler:Right.
Annette:And so that's where the name calling comes in.
Annette:Name calling is that thing.
Annette:And I never saw them as things.
Annette:I never saw them as alien people.
Annette:I always saw them as People who had hopes and fears, people who had heartache and laughter, people who had deeper understandings about elements of life than many of us who aren't challenged as they are.
Annette:When every single day of your life is an issue of survival, you come to live life with a greater understanding of how to survive.
Michael Tyler:Right.
Annette:And you come to live life with a greater value of what living day to day actually is.
Annette:And so many people that I found who've been most disparaged in life are the people that I've gotten my greatest lessons about what it means to be human.
Annette:And I think that that is the question that we should all be asking any parent out there who is raising a child and what my sister.
Annette:My sister's lesbian, my sister likes to call the Alphabet community.
Annette:Any parent is out there raising a child in the Alphabet community should not be trying to understand their child in terms of their sexuality.
Annette:This is what I would recommend.
Annette:I'm not saying this is an orthodoxy.
Annette:This is what I recommend.
Annette:They should be simply trying to understand unsnited child as being fully human, because that's what they are.
Michael Tyler:Yes, they're fully human.
Annette:And if you help them understand that, then they can exist and be fully human anywhere they are in the world, anywhere they are in society, anywhere they are in any city that they had.
Annette:And I also advocate that by doing that, because there's nothing bigger than being human.
Annette:There really isn't.
Annette:You can be a woman, but that's not fully human.
Annette:You can be a man, but that's not fully human.
Annette:I can be 6 foot 3, but that's not fully human.
Annette:You can be 5 foot 3, but that's not fully human.
Annette:To be fully human is this composite.
Annette:It's so big that it casts a shadow of everything else.
Annette:So if you're developing that, there's no power anybody can have over you.
Annette:And oftentimes it shuts down what might be adversarial because people cower in power.
Annette:So give them that power.
Michael Tyler:So good.
Michael Tyler:That's beautiful.
Michael Tyler:I mean, really beautiful.
Michael Tyler:So there's so much wisdom in that.
Michael Tyler:Because I think, as you know, what I hear from people so often is I'm so scared for my child, I don't know what to do.
Michael Tyler:And it's so easy to kind of get wrapped up in that space right.
Michael Tyler:Where then you can't see.
Michael Tyler:So you offering this wisdom is so empowering, and it's so freeing and just incredibly good advice for everyone listening.
Michael Tyler:So I hope y'all are taking notes.
Annette:I hope people regard it that way.
Annette:I really do.
Annette:And you said, for example, parents who fear for their child's existence.
Annette:There's not a parent anywhere in the world, anywhere in America who has a daughter who doesn't fear for her existence.
Annette:Yep.
Annette:There's not a single one.
Annette:So how.
Annette:How are you processing that?
Annette:How are you sending your daughter in the world when you know the hazards that face young girls and face grown women in this world?
Annette:The hazards are far greater for girls and women than there are for boys and men.
Annette:And so are you handicapping your daughter in some kind of way because she's a girl entering a world where she might find aggression or she might find abrasions or she might find misogyny and sexism?
Annette:Because if you're not considering her full humanity to deflect that, she will always be vulnerable to that.
Annette:So I don't see that any differently than having a child who's a race minority who has to face that, or having a child who has a disability and has to face that.
Annette:Why is that any different?
Annette:If we think it's different, then we will make it different for our children.
Annette:And so we as parents can make that a problem.
Annette:We don't need to make that a problem for them.
Annette:They should fully embrace who they are as being natural.
Annette:You should fully embrace who they are as being natural.
Annette:Yep.
Annette:There's.
Annette:There's oftentimes something wrong with how society sees them, but there's nothing wrong with how they see themselves.
Michael Tyler:Correct.
Annette:Okay.
Annette:I go out in the world every day, and there's something wrong with how society sees me.
Annette:When I see people grabbing their purses and clutching and following me around in stores and so forth, there's something wrong with how society sees me, but there's nothing wrong with how I see myself.
Annette:So I have a Teflon garment on my mind.
Annette:Whenever I walk outside, that stuff just bounces off of me.
Annette:Because I don't enter the world as a black man or as an African American man or as an African American.
Annette:Those are elements of who I am.
Annette:I enter the world as a human, as being fully human.
Annette:There's nothing bigger than that.
Annette:Nothing bigger than that.
Annette:So I would ask those parents out there, with care and love and with the intent to power, give power to their children because they love with power, love strongly, love fiercely, that they.
Annette:They will.
Annette:They will be able to give them that same Teflon shield.
Heather Hester:I love that.
Michael Tyler:Thank you.
Michael Tyler:That is just.
Michael Tyler:That is just perfect.
Michael Tyler:Just like that.
Michael Tyler:I would love to talk to you all day long, but I am watching our time very closely.
Michael Tyler:So I just want to give you one more.
Michael Tyler:I know we.
Michael Tyler:We talked about the book just a little bit at the beginning, but I'd love to kind of circle back and end with that as well.
Michael Tyler:So I will let you end with whatever you would like to say about the book, where people can find it and all of those good things.
Annette:First of all, you can find it anywhere.
Annette:Anywhere you can get a book, whether it's your local store, whether it's a big chain, whether it's online in your library.
Annette:The book is available.
Annette:It's keenly available, and I really hope people seek it out.
Annette:The one thing I most, most want to say about the book is it's easy to say that it's about girl empowerment, but to me, it's more than that, because I believe that no society will ever reach its maximum while denying half of its citizens.
Annette:And America has yet to reach its maximum.
Annette:There's no society on the planet that's done so because patriarchy runs most societies, and so most societies are denying half their citizens.
Annette:I want to live in a world where humanity is maximized.
Annette:And so to me, as a matter of logic, then, in order to have that.
Annette:That more perfect union or that ultimate civilization, you have to bring women and girls full on board.
Annette:You have to get the most out of them that you can and give them the belief that they can get the most out of themselves so they can make the most contribution to any society that they're in, and then we will have the most of whatever humanity can be.
Annette:So to me, it's more than just an identity empowerment.
Annette:It's how do we put a message inside of a child that's going to enable them to create the maximum society that any of us can live in?
Annette:Because that's the society I want to live in.
Annette:So that's the last thing I would say about it.
Michael Tyler:Love it.
Michael Tyler:Thank you.
Michael Tyler:Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be with me and to be with all of my people.
Michael Tyler:So, so appreciate it.
Annette:Thank you.
Annette:I appre.
Annette:Appreciate you giving me the time because you gave me a chance to talk.
Annette:I love to talk.
Michael Tyler:Absolutely.
Michael Tyler:Well, you know that's what I do, right?
Michael Tyler:Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester:Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester:If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so, so grateful.
Heather Hester:For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester:Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester:And remember to just breath until next time.
