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S1 E26: I think you're ready (April / @A_Bowler2)
Episode 2613th December 2022 • WebJoy • Eddie Hinkle
00:00:00 00:26:56

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April Bowler joins the show to talk about her origin story, from her first career and taking a break to raise her kids, to discovering that she was actually really interested in software development while helping her daughter plan for college.

We discuss her journey learning to code and the encouragement and help she received along the way from the tech community around her. The challenges of debugging and the love/joy relationship developers have with their code. Finally, we talked about the communities that helped her along the way: Code Newbie, The Collab Lab and Outreachy.

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Eddie:

Welcome to episode 26 of the web joy podcast.

Eddie:

I'm your host, Eddie.

Eddie:

And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and

Eddie:

what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community.

Eddie:

I hope you enjoy today's episode.

Eddie:

I think you're ready.

Eddie:

With April Balor.

Eddie:

April, thank you for joining us today.

Eddie:

I'm excited to have you on the Web Joy podcast.

Eddie:

Yeah.

Eddie:

Just kinda to get started, why don't you tell everyone who you are, what you

Eddie:

do, where you work, you know, just a.

Eddie:

Brief intro about yourself, if you will.

April:

Absolutely.

April:

Thanks for having me.

April:

I'm excited to be here.

April:

. . My name is April and I currently work as a developer for web Password,

April:

working primarily on the web application version of our projects, and I do a

April:

lot of front end work, little bit of backend, but mostly, mostly the front.

Eddie:

That's cool.

Eddie:

I guess what's a, a short version of your story, right?

Eddie:

How did you come to get involved in tech?

April:

Yeah, so I always liken it to me, kind of always searching for

April:

what do I wanna be when I grow up and at some point I became a mother.

April:

And, um, as our circumstances I was privileged enough to be able to stay home

April:

with my children for the formative years.

April:

And then once they went, I have three.

April:

When they all went into school, I started working part-time and

April:

then I realized that I just wasn't satisfied with what I was doing.

April:

It was just not very fulfilling, and so I didn't wanna move that into full-time.

April:

So somewhere along the line, my daughter, when she hit high school,

April:

started looking at what she wanted to study in college and different careers

April:

and our things, and we came across.

April:

Or, uh, I guess computer science and, and development in general.

April:

It fits her personality really, really well.

April:

And as I was going through and marking all the boxes, I went, wait a minute.

April:

Those mark all of my boxes too.

April:

. Eddie: I

April:

like to solve problems.

April:

I like to be creative.

April:

I like structured context to work in , and so I started just kind of

April:

playing around with some online free courses and then stepped that up to

April:

some online paid courses and one led to another, which led to the ability

April:

to be involved in an internship, which led to me being employed.

April:

So here I.

Eddie:

Well, that's really interesting.

Eddie:

I love the fact that you were helping your daughter figure out

Eddie:

what she wanted to do, and it's not like she was like, oh, that's dumb.

Eddie:

And you were like, oh, that's interesting.

Eddie:

That's great.

Eddie:

You both actually found an interest in it.

Eddie:

Did you all get to like, Do any kind of studying together or anything like that?

April:

We didn't.

April:

That's where the mother daughter can, you know, relationship stepped in.

April:

It was like, fair enough.

April:

That's cool that you're doing that

April:

. Eddie: Why are you trying to copy me, mom?

April:

Yeah.

April:

Yeah.

April:

But what was, what's

April:

really funny is, I got my first job offer two weeks after

April:

she got her first internship offer, which ultimately became her job.

April:

So now we both still work in the industry.

April:

. Eddie: Well, hey, that is really cool.

April:

No, definitely.

April:

As, as someone who has been a child and has someone who has

April:

a child, I totally understand.

April:

Kids don't always want their, their parents following them.

April:

. April: Yeah.

April:

We still don't talk too much about work even now, uh, more than just.

April:

We can understand when we're venting.

April:

Like the, ah, it takes forever to get my code review.

April:

It's like she gets it.

April:

But other than that, it's really dive into

Eddie:

details, Well, hey, that, that is pretty cool because as far

Eddie:

as me, like no one in my family Yeah.

Eddie:

Has anything to do with tech.

Eddie:

And so yeah, oftentimes you're like, oh my gosh, this bug thing

Eddie:

can take forever to figure out.

Eddie:

And no one can understand that.

Eddie:

Frustration and yet also joy at the same time.

Eddie:

Yes.

Eddie:

So that's great.

Eddie:

You have someone , it's,

April:

it's funny you say that.

April:

My husband constantly comments on like, you cost so much , don't understand

April:

why you say you love this job.

April:

I'm like, I can't explain it.

April:

I can't.

April:

It just is.

April:

And yes, I do curse a lot.

April:

I, I'm a mask that way, I guess , but I do love it.

April:

. Eddie: Well, we face these

April:

And like, I guess, what is it that.

April:

Gets you excited about working as a software engineer, right?

April:

What helps kind of push you over those frustrating points to kind

April:

of keep you engaged and excited?

April:

I really do love the creative aspects.

April:

Again, I do a lot of front end stuff, so there's a, you know, and,

April:

and I think there's creativity on, on all sides of the code base, but

April:

in particular, it's just kind of a.

April:

A fun thing to just take a blank white page and make it this like

April:

designed, beautiful theme, you know?

April:

And to do that with code is, I don't know, it's fun.

April:

I like it . And then I, I am at my heart, I'm a problem solver.

April:

Like I gravitate towards like puzzle things, puzzle games, the strategy thing.

April:

You know, that's just, Where my brain loves to be, I guess.

April:

So yeah, digging in and finding that semicolon.

April:

As frustrating as it is , like the joy of finding it is

April:

just fills me in a weird way.

Eddie:

It's that needle in a haystack, right?

Eddie:

And it's like you, yeah, you found it.

Eddie:

You may have dug through a lot of hay, but there it was.

April:

It's the determination of just knowing there's a solution,

April:

like there is a solution.

April:

Hmm.

April:

And is my first go at it gonna be the prettiest?

April:

Probably not, but there's gonna be a solution.

April:

And then from there I can refine it and then just, I don't know, believing

April:

in that there is a solution to find.

April:

I just have to keep

Eddie:

digging.

April:

And I'm sure these are probably, I'm gonna come across for that.

April:

That proves to be false.

April:

But thus far I have not.

April:

So

April:

, Eddie: I love.

April:

I think as you said, right, there's creativity and there's problem solving

April:

for anyone who's a software engineer, I mean really anyone who's in tech, right?

April:

Even design like you have a problem of how do you help a user do this

April:

and you know, you solve it through interaction patterns and stuff.

April:

Marketing, like how do we solve the issue of making someone buy this thing?

April:

But I also think, like you said, for front end, it's people who, with the front

April:

end to solve visual problems in a way.

April:

Yeah.

April:

And that's definitely, I, I've spent.

April:

a lot of time in front end.

April:

That's definitely, I, I like solving, of course, some code problems, but

April:

I also love solving visual problems too, and making things look,

April:

look fun and pretty and engaging.

April:

Yeah.

April:

Yeah, it's just, it's

Eddie:

fun.

Eddie:

, you know, on this podcast it's web joy.

Eddie:

We like to talk about things that bring us joy in the tech industry, and so I just

Eddie:

kind of wanted to say, Hey, , what is it that brings you join the tech industry?

Eddie:

Uh, you

April:

know, I just, I really love the elements of camaraderie

April:

that exists in the tech industry.

April:

I spent a good portion of the first couple of years dabbling, trying to learn

April:

code, feeling like I couldn't, I couldn't share that skill with others because

April:

they were gonna see that I was just an idiot, didn't know what I was doing.

April:

And so I did it alone and independent and on my own.

April:

Really had no gauge of where I was at.

April:

And as we all know, we never give ourselves enough credit for what

April:

we know . Absolutely, absolutely.

April:

But as I was going through the journey and in particular as I started to delve

April:

into, you know, more of like the paid guided courses, you know, there was this

April:

constant reach out there and network and get to know people and I was.

April:

Like, Ugh, I don't wanna do that.

April:

They're gonna just look at me and laugh and be like, Ugh, noob,

April:

who wants to deal with that?

April:

You know, . So finally I was like, there was, it came through my thing

April:

again and it was like, uh, you know, just start following people on Twitter.

April:

And I was like, I can do that.

April:

I can do Twitter because then nobody sees me.

April:

I don't, I can engage at a level that I'm comfortable with

April:

and, you know, go from there.

April:

And so, so that was like my first step.

April:

And I just happened to join Twitter and start some of like the, the code newbie

April:

accounts and like the accounts that are kind of, are more well known to be the

April:

supportive of developing developers.

April:

Code Newbie just happened to be having their like, I think it's a weekly chat,

April:

but it's a chat that they do on Twitter.

April:

And the question that time was, what advice would you give

April:

to somebody learning to code?

April:

And I just remember re like those replies just because they didn't, I

April:

wasn't following a lot of people yet.

April:

And so like their replies just kept coming in my feed.

April:

And I remember just sitting there like with literal tears going, oh my

April:

God, there's this whole like source of people out there that actually care

April:

if I succeed . And they, they don't even know me, but they care like,

April:

It was just kind of inspirational and jarring all at the same time.

April:

And then that gave me the courage to go to local meetups, which made

April:

me realize that I was further along than I was giving myself credit for.

April:

And through those connections and encouragements, I was able

April:

to get the internship that I got.

April:

And you know, I probably would've still been sitting in my living room learning

April:

to code had I not like stepped outta.

April:

Fear of being exposed and, and being a new and, and just embraced that

April:

and let others who wanted to be there to say, you've got this, and if you

April:

have questions, I'm happy to help.

April:

And, you know, that was, I love that . I just have never experienced that in, in

April:

any, the other aspect of like my journey.

April:

Thus,

Eddie:

I love how you were nervous and so there was this way of kind of

Eddie:

going down this path where it's like you didn't have to go to a conference

Eddie:

with thousands of people and feel like, Hey, I'm a developer, but instead, like

Eddie:

you could engage on Twitter and even.

Eddie:

Like the main thing was you were following the code newbies and you saw people's

Eddie:

replies to this question, and it's like their replies weren't even necessarily

Eddie:

directed to you at that moment, right?

Eddie:

Like it was just right to anyone trying to learn.

Eddie:

And yet that spoke to you as someone who was like nervous and in this news, Space

Eddie:

that like, oh hey, I'm welcome here.

Eddie:

Like people care enough to write advice into the void.

Eddie:

That's really awesome and that it took you on this journey to say, Hey,

Eddie:

like now I can actually go meet up with people in person and like, it's

Eddie:

not scary cuz I've seen that like these people are, are kind and they

Eddie:

want to engage with others and stuff.

Eddie:

I love.

April:

Yeah, no, that sums it up.

April:

Exactly.

April:

It was, it was really nice.

April:

It, it was really appreciated.

April:

Very much so,

April:

, Eddie: have you kind of run into

April:

know, someone going outta their way to help you on your journey?

April:

Like either on Twitter or in a, like the meetups or

April:

anything else kind of along the.

April:

I have so many , not necessarily on Twitter because, because I did

April:

just my personality, I do tend to be a little bit more reserved on Twitter.

April:

There was a, there was a period of time when I was a little bit more

April:

active and I was writing blog posts for the intern part of the internship

April:

program that I was a part of.

April:

And so I would promote those, not necessarily for my sake, but

April:

for the program itself because I really felt strongly that it was

April:

a great program, that I wanted more people to be aware of it and.

April:

As I wrote those blog posts, I would share them and things.

April:

But then once that was over and I was working, I kind of went

April:

back to my little lu corner,

April:

So you won't see too many posts for me.

April:

I'll retweet from time to time something that resonates, but generally

April:

I'm, I'm a scroller in the lurker.

April:

And then I, I would say like the most impactful to me was, uh, the

April:

organizer for one of the local meetups was the one who introduced me to the

April:

internship program that I participated.

April:

And when they mentioned it and specifically and during, after they

April:

had announced it to the whole group.

April:

And then afterwards when we had the social time, they specifically came

April:

to me and said, you should apply.

April:

And I was like, I'm not, I'm not.

April:

I don't, I'm not, can't.

April:

And like just apply.

April:

Just apply.

April:

It's like.

April:

You answer like four questions to apply like, and you can do that.

April:

I know you can do that.

April:

And then from there you can go see what happens next.

April:

I was like, ok, fine.

April:

Ok, fine . But that push and that nudge and that encouragement

April:

of like, I think you're ready.

April:

And I would love to see you do this, that I really, really appreciated that.

April:

And I have tried paying that and have paid that forward to at least, at least one

April:

other person, but I think others, but one in particular, , where it was somebody

April:

that I also saw at our meetup group.

April:

That was progressing and kind of, I saw them in a similar space than I was of

April:

spinning their wheels and trying to be perfect their, their Java script and

April:

trying to perfect where they were at and, and stepping in and saying, you

April:

need to take this to the next level.

April:

Let's get you started on some open source contributions so that you can

April:

actually work in real code instead of trying to just keep learning.

April:

Concepts and ideas that you might not ever come across and you have the skills

April:

to research them if you do . That was kinda the most impactful one for me.

Eddie:

And I love that you mentioned like you kind of paid

Eddie:

that forward as well, right?

Eddie:

Like this community.

Eddie:

Mm-hmm.

Eddie:

only continues to be impactful in that way if we receive it and we also pay

Eddie:

it forward and we give it forward.

Eddie:

So I love that kind of train happening there.

Eddie:

. April: No, I absolutely, and

Eddie:

a positive impact on me, it just drives me the most to be able to

Eddie:

provide and to pay that forward.

Eddie:

You know, I kind of came across you because you being involved

Eddie:

with the collab lab, and I think that's another big community, right?

Eddie:

Like in speaking of communities that kind of people receive, people pay forward.

Eddie:

Where they kind of have taken that receiving and paying forward into

Eddie:

a persevering lifecycle, right?

Eddie:

Where people can come, people can learn, and then people can then

Eddie:

mentor and carry that forward.

Eddie:

Um, yeah.

Eddie:

I guess, you know, what are your experiences with the, the collab

Eddie:

lab and, and what did that look

April:

like?

April:

Yeah, I've actually been involved with them on a few different levels.

April:

I came across them on Twitter , which is their primary

April:

outreach, um, source as well.

April:

I really loved the concept and the idea because one of the things when

April:

I, when I did my internship, the mentor that I worked with asked me

April:

at the very beginning, like, what are you hoping to take away from this?

April:

Like, what are you hoping to learn out of this experience?

April:

And, you know, they gave some examples like, do you wanna become better at React?

April:

Do you wanna look, you know, better at, and there's a lot of technical

April:

aspects that they were asking, like, if I wanted to improve.

April:

And I was just like, I wanna know what it feels like to work on a team,

April:

to work as part of a team and, and what does that look and feel like?

April:

Because, This is a world that's not, I, I've never done this before,

April:

So I wanna be able to walk into a job and feel competent, and not feel

April:

lost and confused and so forth, so that I can be the best, you know,

April:

give the best of myself to that job.

April:

So that was kind of my, my goal and my purpose.

April:

And I think at that point I realized like the code will come and with, I

April:

had already seen, so, and I, and, and we'll talk a little bit later about

April:

the program itself, but I had already experienced what it was like to get

April:

feedback from a senior developer.

April:

And so I already knew like the, the growth was going to be there

April:

from a technical standpoint.

April:

Mm-hmm.

April:

. And so I wanted to ensure that I then got that other layer

April:

involved when I saw the CoLab lab.

April:

That's.

April:

Their mission statement, , or a version of their mission statement, which is

April:

to, to give early career developers that experience of what it feels like

April:

to collaborate as part of a team so that when they are interviewing, they can

April:

have more informed conversations about their experience and, and that process.

April:

And then when they step in on day one, they step in just a little.

April:

More ready and prepared for the work that they're going to be asked to do,

April:

and without a lot of the side noise, like the friction that comes from not

April:

knowing what the process looks like.

April:

And so I, I just really wanna be there and support that.

April:

So I've been, I've been a mentor for a couple of cohorts.

April:

I've also done some mock interviews during their career lab.

April:

Um, in fact, I have another mock interview coming up.

April:

I'm both going to be giving one to one of the, uh, collab participants, but I'm

April:

also going to do the interviewer mentor.

April:

I'll be the interviewee.

Eddie:

That's

April:

awesome.

April:

Yeah.

April:

Yeah.

April:

So just to give them an example of what it.

April:

To, what does an interview look like?

April:

. , it's a really great program and I really appreciate the work that they do, and

April:

so I try to contribute where I can.

April:

And then I also presented it to my work and we incorporated it in as

April:

part of one of company initiatives.

April:

Multiple people from my work also jump in and mentor and help out, so

April:

it slowed down a little bit lately.

April:

But it was fun for, it was fun for a little bit.

April:

We had like four or five people going at a time, so it was fun.

April:

. Eddie: Yeah, I love it.

April:

Like you said, it's interesting.

April:

You can really tell when kind of a company or a group of people within a

April:

company like really support, cuz you.

April:

When you join the collab lab Slack, like you'll end up running across,

April:

you know, several companies that you have a handful of people from

April:

the same company all involved.

April:

Yeah.

April:

And you're like, oh, wow.

April:

It definitely makes a, a really positive statement.

April:

You know, as far as like, yeah, the people who are involved in this company and what

April:

they prioritize and what they care about.

April:

So that was, Encouraging to see.

April:

It was really

April:

great.

April:

I was actually really, um, was really happy to see that

April:

being undertaken from us.

April:

And, and it was kind of a, in and around the aspects of, you know, we as a company

April:

try to do what we can in regards to like diversity and inclusion and so forth.

April:

And so we wanted to be able to try to mirror that out

April:

into the bigger tech sphere.

April:

And so by supporting an organization like the collab lab, which does also support

April:

underrepresented individuals, it kind of gave us an opportunity to, you know,

April:

be out there and be involved in and make a difference outside of our internal

Eddie:

circle.

Eddie:

Yeah, that's great because, That's one reason I got involved with the

Eddie:

collab lab as well, because as a white man in tech, I am amongst a

Eddie:

huge herd of overly represented, uh,

Eddie:

You go, go down the checklist of are you overrepresented in tech?

Eddie:

Yes, I am a clone of many people and so for me, like figuring out how to help

Eddie:

tech become a more diverse and inclusive.

Eddie:

Place, like being part of companies and looking around and being like, uh, this

Eddie:

company isn't, you know, very diverse.

Eddie:

A big problem is the funnel in like, people knowing that they can be in tech,

Eddie:

knowing that there are people to support them and help get them ahead, right?

Eddie:

Where it's like, oh, like not only do I know the tech, but I can work

Eddie:

on a team and I have team experience and kind of helping break down

Eddie:

some of the systematic things.

Eddie:

Hold people who are underrepresented back from being able to be involved or having

Eddie:

as good interviews or things like that.

Eddie:

So, yeah, I love that focus.

April:

One of the other pieces that I think is, is really, really, really

April:

lacking in our industry is, is a lot of individuals find tech later.

April:

They don't always find it in college, and sometimes it's misconceptions about

April:

what kind of skills they need to have to be a computer science major or.

April:

You know, sometimes it's simply they can't afford to go to college.

April:

You know, I mean, like, there's so many reasons why individuals don't

April:

take the traditional college path.

April:

So then you have this pool of people that the industry is trying to bring

April:

in, or, so the speak says , um, but they don't have things, the college degree.

April:

And if you look.

April:

And I, from my own personal experience, the opportunities that are, are

April:

afforded to you through internships and otherwise are usually aided by that.

April:

Like you have to be an active student at an accredited university in order

April:

to be qualified to do the internship at this company or that company.

April:

And so when you have a lot of these individuals and, and many times,

April:

From the underrepresented communities that are coming into this career

April:

later in their, in their lives or through non-traditional means.

April:

There's just not a lot of resources available to get that experience.

April:

And so wherever I can help programs that offer that through, such as the co

April:

lab, I, I'm gonna do my best to do so

April:

. Eddie: Right?

April:

So speaking of right, like internships and how people.

April:

Can get that kind of experience.

April:

Um, you kind of hinted at this earlier, but kind of talking through your

April:

experiences with an internship, you know, obviously in this podcast as

April:

people are probably used to me saying like, we love to support each other.

April:

Right?

April:

And we always kind of want to hear what shout outs people have

April:

for things that they might wanna look into and might be helpful.

April:

And so with that, you kind of had your internship and so tell

April:

me a little bit more about.

April:

Absolutely, I'd love to.

April:

So I went through a program called outreachy.

April:

Um, I believe your website is outreachy org.

April:

It's an organization that's intended to bring underrepresented individuals into

April:

free and open source software community.

April:

And it is a paid internship, which is nice.

April:

Obviously, , I mean, it's not the highest.

April:

Paying internship, but it is one.

April:

And, uh, there's an application process.

April:

And if you, if you clear through the application process, then you are brought

April:

into what's called a submission phase.

April:

And so that submission phase is approximately a month,

April:

if I remember correctly.

April:

And during that time, you can pick a project from the organizations that are

April:

participating in the um, uh, program and contribute to their code bases,

April:

through their open source code base.

April:

It's a really great way to get some experience working on actual code

April:

bases with dedicated mentors there to help guide you and give you feedback.

April:

And so when I did it, as I said, I didn't feel like I was prepared at all.

April:

And so then I started it and I picked a, a project to kind of.

April:

I guess lurked around a couple of the boards for some of the different

April:

projects, and I really liked the overall tone of the mentors on the project that

April:

I ultimately ended up contributing to.

April:

Because for time and resource, your best to pick one or two projects total because

April:

you know, otherwise you only ever get the opportunity to do very small starter

April:

projects like clean up these extra CSS lines that made it through a rease or.

April:

You know, go in and change the text on this error message or things

April:

that just are designed to get the code base on your computer,

April:

get it compiling, get it running.

April:

Have you find yourself, find the code that you need to fix and then

April:

not have to worry about the fix it.

April:

Like those little starter issues.

April:

And so if you're trying to contribute to multiple projects, you're

April:

probably never gonna get past that phase . And so that makes sense.

April:

So I found the, I found the organization and so it happened to be a project, um,

April:

read through Mozilla called Pontoon.

April:

They're a localization application that, that Mozilla uses for some

April:

of the internal localization.

April:

And it's also a free and open source software that can be used by others.

April:

And so I ended up in the end, Kind of approaching it with, I have 30 days

April:

with mentors that are ready and willing to review and give feedback, and I'm

April:

gonna take full advantage of that.

April:

And if I get the internship, that's even better.

April:

, . And so in the end, I ended up kind of, I think I put in five or six patches.

April:

Through the course of that first month and then actually continued

April:

on one of my patches while we waited for the internships to be announced.

April:

And so, and then, and then I got the internship.

April:

So it was fantastic.

April:

, yay, . But what I really liked about that process was twofold.

April:

One, I had the ability to show my skills.

April:

It wasn't just an application where you talk about or, and it wasn't,

April:

um, like a, you know, like a elite code test or something along those

April:

lines that just shows whether or not I can process logically and.

April:

A certain time restriction or whatever.

April:

Um, it was real code that I was then able to interact with and communicate

April:

with the or the maintainers and have that give and take process and.

April:

I really, really appreciated that, especially as somebody who didn't qualify

April:

for traditional internship opportunities such as those offered to college students.

April:

And so even if all I ever got was those first 30 days, it still would've been

April:

an invaluable asset to me going forward.

April:

So it was a, it was an extra gift to be able to do the internship and complete

April:

the internship project for them.

April:

And I still actually participate on that project to this day.

April:

And it's been, I think three years now, I think three or four

April:

years now since I started on it.

April:

I haven't done a lot of code contributions lately just cuz life, but I do still

April:

attend most of our weekly, you know, calls just to touch base with and keep in touch

April:

with what's happening on the project.

April:

And so therefore when I do dive in, I'll be ready to go.

April:

, Eddie: I love how, you know, they

April:

also like, being a paid internship for many people in underrepresented,

April:

like that can be a huge challenge.

April:

If the bar is, oh, I have to, you know, work for unpaid for X amount of

April:

time, like all those things we can do to kind of pull down the gates and,

April:

and open things up is, is excellent.

April:

So That's awesome.

April:

That's an

April:

excellent program.

April:

I, I was, Very happy with my participation in it,

April:

. Eddie: Well, thank you so much

April:

It's been a pleasure chatting and, uh, getting to hear a little more

April:

about your story and, and what gets you excited about the tech industry.

April:

Yeah, absolutely.

April:

Thanks for inviting

Eddie:

me.

Eddie:

Absolutely.

Eddie:

Thank you for joining us for episode 26.

Eddie:

I think you're ready.

Eddie:

With April Balor.

Eddie:

You can find out more about April on her Twitter.

Eddie:

At a underscore Balor two.

Eddie:

You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link

Eddie:

to April's Twitter in the show notes.

Eddie:

If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well.

Eddie:

Why don't you give us a shout out on Twitter or tag a friend or coworker

Eddie:

that you think would enjoy it?

Eddie:

And don't forget to follow us on Twitter or subscribe to our

Eddie:

newsletter to stay up to date.

Eddie:

Thank you for listening and have a great day