What makes a good long-term partner, according to science? And why is it important to be mindful when we are choosing who to settle down with? In this episode, we dig into the research about what to look for and — equally important — what not to look for in a long-term partner. Plus, how do you clarify what you need in a partner? How can you differentiate between dealbreakers and “nice-to-haves” so that you can more effectively date?

Key Takeaways

00:00:00 - Intro and episode overview

00:02:42 - Why be mindful of who we choose as a long-term partner?

00:06:14 - What science says about what makes a good long-term partner

00:25:19 - What doesn’t make someone a good partner, according to research

00:51:21 - How to clarify what you need in a partner

01:04:40 - How to clarify what you want vs. what you need

Resources Mentioned

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Downloadable Guide: What to look for in a long-term partner (includes the Relationship Inventory and the Ideal Mate Exercise)

Warren Buffett says the most important decision you’ll ever make has nothing to do with your money or career

Study from Tel Aviv: Dissatisfaction with Married Life in Men Is Related to Increased Stroke and All-Cause Mortality

Harvard Study of Adult Development

Plays Well with Others: The Surprising Science Behind Why Everything You Know About Relationships Is (Mostly) Wrong, By Eric Barker

The Gottman Institute

How to Not Die Alone, by Logan Ury

Deeper Dating, by Ken Page

People Are Dating All Wrong, According to Data Science

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

Hello, dear listener.

2

We are on a short break, and this

is a replay of one of our most

3

popular episodes ever, What to

Look for in a Long Term Partner.

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Enjoy.

5

Depression, negative affect, which

is like experiencing feelings like

6

irritability and shame on a regular

basis, and insecure attachment

7

are all relationship risk factors.

8

And, if people, um, are able to,

um, Establish a, what we call a

9

secure functioning relationship.

10

A relationship where both people

feel safe and heard and important.

11

Um, those risk factors don't matter

12

from the relationship center.

13

I'm psychotherapist and dating coach

Jessica Engle, and this is, I Love

14

You too, a show about how to create

and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm professional certified

coach Josh Van Vliet and on today's

16

episode we're going to talk about what

to look for in a long term partner.

17

We're so happy you're here and please

remember that this show is not a

18

substitute for a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional.

19

So this is such a juicy topic today.

20

I'm really excited to

get into this with you.

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We're talking about what to

look for in a long term partner.

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And we've got a couple of questions

that we're going to be digging into

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around this that I'm so excited to

hear what you have to share because

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I

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Josh: don't know, in fact, what

you're going to share today.

26

And the first question, well, I'm just

going to share all three questions

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actually as kind of an overview of where

we're headed in this episode and the kind

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of things that we're going to get into.

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Jessica: Great.

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Josh: We're going to start with

what does science say about

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what makes a good partner?

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Jessica: Wonderful.

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Josh: And then look at how do I

meaning you the listener, clarify

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what you need in a partner.

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How do you clarify what

you need in a partner?

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Because there are some things that

may be pretty consistent across

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relationships that indicate, uh, this

tends to work well in a relationship.

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And there may be certain things

that you are looking for in a

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partnership that may be different.

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Mm-Hmm.

41

. Josh: And then, uh, we're gonna

look a little bit at this question

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of how do I clarify what I want

versus what I need in a partner?

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Because we.

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I often hear from folks, there's a

particular, you know, there's someone

45

they're, they're dating perhaps, or

they're, they're exploring things with,

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but they don't have this particular thing.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Josh: How do I figure out, is

this actually a deal breaker?

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Or is this something that is

Well, maybe nice to have, but

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not actually all that important.

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Jessica: Right.

52

Yeah, and I actually want to add one more

question to this list, and a question

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that we'll start with, which is why be

mindful about who you choose as a partner?

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It may seem a little obvious to some of

us, but I think for others, there may

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be a sense of like, well, love, if it's

meant to be, it's meant to be, um, won't

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I just, won't it just happen organically?

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Why, why should I be thinking about this?

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Um, yeah, I want to share with

you a few things about why it's

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really great to think about this.

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So, uh, billionaire Warren Buffett,

he says, marry the right person.

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I'm serious about that.

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It will make a difference in your life.

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And he actually attributes his

success to his first marriage.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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I didn't know that.

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Yeah.

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He says that his relationship with

his first wife changed him as a

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person, uh, and really encouraged

him to go out and do big things.

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Um, and I think that the, the

wonderful thing is that science

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really confirms what he's saying.

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Um, we have a lot of really great

research, uh, showing that the key to a

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happy life is meaningful relationships.

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And even more specifically with

romantic love, we really know,

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uh, the impact of happy versus

unhappy long term relationships.

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So for example, we know that

happy long term relationships

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produce healthier human beings.

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We actually have less, say, heart

disease or other health issues

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when we have a stable relationship.

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Uh, and then we also know that people

actually live longer when they have

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healthy long term relationships.

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Um, we, I wanted to share this really

cool study that recently came out of

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Tel Aviv, uh, that looked at health data

for 10, 000 Israeli men over 30 years.

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And they found that men who were

dissatisfied with their marriage were

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19 percent more likely on average.

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To die during the 32 year study.

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Mm hmm.

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Dark.

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Uh, and then strokes were 69 percent more

common among those who felt they had an

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unsuccessful marriage compared to those

who indicated a very successful marriage.

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They actually found that all

of these risks were the same

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as if these men were smoking.

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Wow.

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Or not exercising.

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Josh: Wow.

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Jessica: Yeah, so pretty huge.

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There's also a really famous study

out of Harvard, the Harvard study

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of adult development that tracked a

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This is a really sort of milestone piece

of research and they found among other

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things that secure relationships at

midlife were a better predictor of health

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30 years later than cholesterol levels.

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And just in general, those researchers,

their big takeaway from all of

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that data was if you want a happy

life, have happy relationships.

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Josh: That's so interesting.

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I was just reading a wonderful book

about relationships by Eric Parker,

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and he's citing I think some of that

same research, but he also says.

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That, uh, like happiness and sense

of well being for people who are

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in, uh, unhappy relationships was

worse than if you were single.

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Yeah.

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Josh: There's like this, this high

benefit to being in a, uh, a meaningful,

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uh, kind of secure functioning

relationship, uh, that kind of blows

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everything else out of the water.

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But there's also this flip side of.

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If you choose the wrong person or be in

the wrong relationship for you, uh, it can

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have a very big impact on your well being.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Like

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Josh: you were saying in some of

the studies from, from Tel Aviv.

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Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

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I'm sure there are people

hearing right now that are

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like, yeah, no, I've lived that.

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Not news.

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Not news to me.

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It's a very clear impact when we're

in a dysfunctional relationship.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, maybe let's talk next about

what science tells us about what

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makes a good long term partner.

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Josh: Yeah.

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I'm so curious to hear, uh, hear

what you've collected on this.

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Jessica: Mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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So, I'm gonna be pulling, um,

partially from Logan Ury's

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book, uh, How to Not Die Alone.

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And she's really pulling

from the Gottmans.

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The good old Gottmans.

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Josh: Source of, uh, so much

wonderful wisdom about relationships.

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Jessica: That's right.

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So the Gottmans are a

couple up in Seattle.

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Um, John Gottman, they, they've been

married for several decades, I think.

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And John, uh, was the lead of

something called the Love Lab,

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where they actually brought couples

in and, uh, really, uh, made love.

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Watch them closely, and over time they

were able to pick up on things that

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predicted the end of a relationship

within a really insane rate, I think

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it was like 93 percent accuracy.

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So one of the things that they looked

at is the characteristics that are, they

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associate with what they call relationship

masters versus relationship disasters.

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So we're going to talk about

seven of these characteristics.

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The first is emotional stability.

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Okay, so, somebody who can really

self regulate, not give in to anger

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and impulsivity is going to be a

wonderful partner in the long term.

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Second, we've got kindness, so think

generosity, empathy, supportiveness.

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Third, we have loyalty.

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Capacity to remain connected

and committed even when things

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are getting really difficult.

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Uh, fourth, we have a growth mindset.

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Okay?

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So instead of being, uh, you know,

taken aback by challenges, uh, self

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critical, they're going to be motivated

by those challenges, willing to learn.

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Okay?

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Personality that brings out the

best in you is number five, right?

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How are you around that person?

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How fun are you?

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Secure, are you anxious?

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Whatever it is.

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Uh, sixth is skills to fight well.

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They can make repair attempts and

really de escalate, uh, conflicts.

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They're really gonna invite in your

perspective, make you feel seen and heard.

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And then seventh is the ability

to make hard decisions with you.

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So the capacity to really, like,

take turns leading and following

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somebody who can remain supportive

and collaborative rather than, say,

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blaming when things go difficult.

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Mm hmm.

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Josh: Mm hmm.

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Interesting.

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I'm curious.

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I want to dig in a little

bit more to some of these.

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Emotional stability.

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Mm hmm.

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Josh: This one just jumped out at

me because I know for myself, and

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I imagine this may be true for some

of the folks, uh, listening, I don't

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always feel emotionally stable.

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There are plenty of times when I feel,

you know, anxious or, uh, you know, having

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a hard time processing something that

I don't feel like I'm acting my best.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Josh: And so I'm, I'm curious to kind

of get into the nuance of that because

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On the one hand, I can totally see what

they mean when someone is so caught up in

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their, uh, you know, worries or anxiety or

anger or impulsivity that they can't kind

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of act, they can't Pause, have a moment

of pause between the experience they're

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having and the action that they take.

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It can be very difficult.

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It can cause some very

painful experiences.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Josh: And at the same time, we're all kind

of emotionally unstable some of the time.

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Jessica: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that's a really great point.

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We certainly don't want to take

these points as, um, encouragement

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to be perfect or to be, um, we

don't have to be always happy.

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Or calm.

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Um, yeah, so actually I might jump

forward a little bit to another, uh,

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study that was really interesting by

a researcher called Samantha Joel.

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She used machine learning models to assess

whether specific traits in a mate were

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predictive of happiness with that mate.

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Josh: Wait, what?

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She used machine learning models

To tell if certain traits were

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predictive of happiness in a mate.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Josh: That's mind blowing to me right now.

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Okay, keep going.

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No,

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Jessica: that's okay.

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It's, it's an amazing piece of research.

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Um, we'll talk a little bit more

about all of that in a bit, but

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the thing I want to point out is,

what they found is that we are.

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We look for traits, typically, that don't

have to do with long term happiness.

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Don't have an impact on long

term happiness in a relationship.

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Josh: Okay.

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Sure.

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So, like, for example, height.

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Jessica: Right.

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Perfect example.

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And What she found is that, um,

interestingly enough, the thing that is

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the biggest predictor of happiness in a

relationship is your partners, how they

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would, um, respond to questions like, are

you happy, um, prior to the relationship?

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Are you happy, uh, are

you free of depression?

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Josh: Like how the partner

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Jessica: would

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Josh: respond.

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So let's say I'm, I'm dating someone

and we're, we're talking about how this

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person would respond before we'd met.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Josh: To saying, are you happy?

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Jessica: Right.

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And so, you know, this to me felt

a little bit like not great news

237

because, um, um, I I have a biased sample

as therapist and I see a lot of people who

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struggle with depression and with anxiety

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like a tall order for everyone to, you

know, be in a position where they get

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to say like, yeah, I'm perfectly happy.

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That

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Josh: would be nice if we were all in that

spot before we got into a relationship.

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Jessica: Right.

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Yeah.

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And so, what was encouraging to me, you

know, they said, um, Depression, negative

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affect, which is like experiencing

feelings like irritability and shame on

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a regular basis, and insecure attachment

are all relationship risk factors.

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And if people, um, are able to,

um, to establish what we call a

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secure functioning relationship,

a relationship where both people

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feel safe and heard and important.

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Um, those risk factors don't matter.

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Yeah.

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Isn't that fascinating?

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Josh: That's, uh, that's very encouraging.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Josh: And it points to something actually

really interesting to me that I've been

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thinking about as we've been preparing

for this episode that is how much of this

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is about like the individual qualities

that we're looking for in somebody.

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And how much of it is about the

relationship, who we are together.

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Jessica: Yes.

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100%.

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And those things are connected.

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Right.

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You know, I think what this brings me

back to is like, yeah, you could have

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depression, you could have anxiety,

you could have attachment issues.

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Many of us do.

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And the thing you have power over

is building relationship skill.

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What does it look like to respond even

when you are feeling emotionally unstable?

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Right?

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Can you have those feelings and also be in

relationship in a way that is functional

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and um, you know, supportive of your bond?

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Josh: Right.

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That's, yeah, that's a, that's a really

good point because it's like we're not

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saying you have to have cleared up all of

your feelings or your insecurities or your

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worries or anxieties or doubts or whatever

before you get into a relationship.

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It's really that focus on that

skill set of, okay, Can I develop

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my capacity to have that experience?

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And still relate in a way with other

people, with this person, uh, that kind

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of, how would you put it, I'm blanking on

the words here, but like, it's functional.

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Yeah.

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Like it gives them a chance to

support you, gives, you know.

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Jessica: Enhances the closeness

rather than increases it.

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Okay.

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So, yeah, a great example I think

is, uh, Um, let's say you are

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going through a bout of depression.

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For some people depression actually

manifests as irritability or anger.

288

And perhaps, you know, everything's

kind of getting to you.

289

So in the emotionally unstable, you

know, quote unquote, um, realm, the

290

way that might get expressed is your

partner comes in, maybe meets you late

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for a date, and you chew them out.

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Josh: Right.

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Jessica: Right?

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It's like,

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Josh: what the hell's wrong with you?

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I've been waiting for you.

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That's

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Jessica: right.

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Josh: You always do this.

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You're so inconsiderate of my time.

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That kind of

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Jessica: thing.

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Yeah.

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And we can all see where that goes.

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No where fun.

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And so the other option would

be, okay, I'm feeling really

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irritable and my partner shows

up late, and I say, sweetheart.

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I'm really struggling right now with,

with some depression or, you know,

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a down mood and I'm just noticing

that I'm feeling a little irritable.

310

And I just need you to know it really

means a lot to me when you show up.

311

Josh: Even as you're saying that, I'm

like, oh, I want to be there for you.

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Jessica: Yes.

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Yeah.

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So being able to go into naming

the emotion and asking for what we

315

need, that right there is emotional

stability because, hello, you're human.

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You're going to have a lot of emotions.

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Can you, um, you know, draw

people closer by expressing them

318

without a lot of, um, hard edges?

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Josh: Yeah.

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Yeah.

321

And I just loved how you, what you

modeled there of like, a way of

322

sharing same, you know, experience

that this person is having, but even

323

as I was listening to you, I felt

like, oh, I want to get closer to you.

324

I want to support you.

325

You're, you're sharing this thing that's

clearly maybe a little hard to share.

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Jessica: Yeah.

327

Josh: Maybe feels a little scary to share.

328

And that draws me closer

versus the, the criticizing or

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kind of

330

Josh: lashing out irritability

that definitely pushes me away.

331

And I'm like, okay, I don't want to

really interact with you right now.

332

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

333

Josh: Even if you know on some level

that person may be suffering and

334

actually isn't really about you.

335

Jessica: Yes.

336

Yeah.

337

Yeah.

338

And I really want to emphasize here,

people may have heard those examples

339

and kind of go like, I don't know how

to do that or that's very foreign to me.

340

And, yeah, I just want to emphasize this

is not like something you're born with.

341

This is something that we learn.

342

And so, if that's something that

you don't feel confident you

343

can do, great news, you can.

344

It's going to take maybe a little bit of

practice and training, but totally doable.

345

Josh: Yeah, that's, I love that.

346

That's like the good news of all of this

is that there are some very discreet

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skills that we can learn both for

ourselves to name and understand what

348

we're experiencing, be able to express

it in a productive way, and then also

349

how to relate to other people around us.

350

In those moments.

351

Jessica: Yes.

352

Josh: And, and on the other side of

it, right, there's both how we, uh,

353

are with what we're experiencing, but

then there's also when we are in that,

354

the other partner's shoes, when our

partner is going through something.

355

Jessica: Yeah.

356

Josh: How do we be with them in

a way that, uh, is supportive

357

and loving and produces more

closeness instead of more distance.

358

Jessica: Right, and it's an

expression of some of these other

359

traits that we were talking about.

360

Kindness.

361

Loyalty.

362

Right?

363

Can you show up in a moment where your

partner is distressed in a way that, um,

364

yeah, again, allows you to get closer.

365

Mm hmm.

366

Josh: I know, uh, one of the things

that comes up for me when I hear

367

the word loyalty is, uh, a worry

that's like, Well, what if I don't

368

know if they're my person yet?

369

Mm

370

Jessica: hmm.

371

Josh: Right?

372

Like, I don't want to just be

loyal to whoever walks in the door.

373

Jessica: Yes.

374

Josh: And so there's, and we're

looking at what, like, what to

375

look for in a long term partner.

376

Mm hmm.

377

Josh: And so there's, there's an

interesting tension here between

378

loyalty is a wonderful quality.

379

Yes.

380

You

381

Josh: really do, it makes a big difference

in a partner, and at the same time we're

382

trying to assess, like You know, you

don't want to just be loyal immediately.

383

Jessica: Absolutely.

384

Well, yeah, I think there's a

lot we could pull out in there.

385

Dating is about assessing what

is possible in a relationship.

386

Yeah.

387

And so, I think that there's a way to

be loyal without having, Um, clarity or

388

a stated intention to be there forever.

389

Josh: If we haven't made an explicit

commitment to each other yet, like

390

how do I know if loyalty is present?

391

Um, like what, you know,

how am I assessing that?

392

How do I know, how do I

know if they're very loyal?

393

Jessica: Yeah, totally.

394

So, um, one way to look at that,

that I appreciate Logan talking

395

about in her book, um, is to look

at their other relationships.

396

So, do they have relationships with

people from earlier in their life?

397

Um, there's some exceptions to that,

some people move around, um, and, You

398

know, are they, are they meeting with

people from different phases of life,

399

because that indicates they, they do

retain relationships over time, um, and

400

then also just kind of getting a sense

of, of their relationships and, um, they

401

may make comments that indicate to you

either that they stick around when things

402

get hard or maybe they cut and run.

403

The other thing to look at there, I

think, is when you are in distress.

404

In some way.

405

How do they respond to that?

406

Do they pull away?

407

Do they shame or criticize you?

408

Or do they stay close?

409

Do they offer support?

410

And even, you know, I hear the piece

in here about like, it's not always

411

going to be appropriate at certain

levels of dating for someone to

412

like be your, your go to person.

413

Like maybe you've gone on a few dates.

414

Right.

415

It's not appropriate really to,

you know, lean on them in the

416

middle of a crisis potentially.

417

Right.

418

And at the level that you're

at, are they showing up?

419

Okay.

420

So, I can imagine someone who's gone,

you know, on a few dates with someone

421

else, um, if they understand that

person's going through something,

422

they might be reaching out, right?

423

To say like, I'm thinking about you

and I'm wondering how you're doing.

424

Is there anything I can do to support you?

425

Yeah.

426

Versus like, Gosh, I told that

person my grandma's sick and I

427

haven't heard from them in a week.

428

Josh: There's a whole, uh, other

podcast or multiple podcasts I'm

429

sure will, will make about, uh,

episodes will make about pacing.

430

Jessica: Yes.

431

Josh: Uh, cause that's, it's almost

like we kind of can't talk about what to

432

look for in a partner without looking,

talking about pacing and how to, uh, cause

433

some of this happens over time, right?

434

You're not going to know all of this

from the first date or the first

435

month, you know, some of these things

that you'll learn as you're saying.

436

out of experiencing each other at

each stage of dating and seeing

437

how are they responding when I'm

in distress or how, how are we

438

together when we're in distress.

439

Facing a difficult challenge.

440

Mm-Hmm.

441

difficult decision to have to make.

442

Um, you're gonna learn so much

out of that versus out of what

443

we may say about ourselves or,

444

Jessica: you know.

445

Absolutely.

446

I'm so looking forward

to that conversation.

447

And, um, yeah, I think that

what, what really struck me

448

about these different, uh.

449

These seven qualities I've, I've named

versus the ones we'll go over later of

450

like what are the common things people

look for that, that don't actually

451

correlate to relationship happiness.

452

Mm.

453

The ones that we're talking about that,

that the Gottman's, you know, uncovered

454

is they're, they take time to assess.

455

Right.

456

And the other ones are like, you can

assess them basically on a dating app.

457

Um, and so that, I think that's, Maybe

one of the like, truths of, of dating

458

mindfully for a long term relationship.

459

We have to take time to assess,

and we have to allow that

460

that's, that's just part of it.

461

Josh: Yeah.

462

That's a really good point.

463

Jessica: I have one more, sort of like,

Beautiful list that, uh, I think is

464

a great way to wrap our minds around,

like, what makes a relationship

465

master who is emotionally receptive.

466

Okay.

467

This comes from, excuse me,

comes from Ken Page's work.

468

He wrote the book and has a great

podcast called Deeper Dating.

469

One of my dating coach,

uh, mentors from afar.

470

Um, and.

471

He likes to talk about attractions

of inspiration, so attractions

472

of inspiration are relationships

characterized by ease and warmth, and we

473

can identify an attraction of inspiration

with a few different questions.

474

For example, are you inspired

by your partner's mostly

475

consistent caring and acceptance?

476

Are you inspired by their goodness,

their decency and integrity?

477

Is your love fueled by respect for

the kind of person your partner is?

478

Um, are you both willing to do

the hard work of healing the

479

relationship's areas of weakness?

480

Do you like who you are in

the presence of your partner?

481

Uh, does he or she make you a better you?

482

Josh: Mm hmm.

483

I love that list.

484

It feels like it also points

towards, um, how are we together.

485

Jessica: Yes.

486

Josh: Which, I've just been

loving that frame recently.

487

It's like, because there is this

interesting interplay between, there

488

are some qualities that you know,

you do want to look for in a partner.

489

Mm hmm.

490

Like you were mentioning earlier, uh,

from the Gottmans, and there's also this

491

quality of like, and how are we together?

492

And we relate differently to different

people, and kind of different people

493

bring out different qualities in us.

494

Jessica: Yeah.

495

Josh: And so, it's not like a kind of.

496

Uh, right, wrong, uh, kind of assessment

of like, oh, good partner, bad partner.

497

It's like, it's really more like

good partner for me or not, like, you

498

know, what is our relationship like?

499

How are we together?

500

Are we, as you're saying, like,

you know, emotionally responsive?

501

Are we kind?

502

Do we respect each other?

503

Is there room for, uh, both of us in

the relationship, both of what we need

504

and want, um, what's important to us?

505

Jessica: Yeah.

506

Yeah, it makes me think about a

couple therapists, you know, we

507

like to talk about there's the

individuals and then there's this third

508

organism, which is the relationship.

509

And we're really, you know, a couple

therapists is actually treating the

510

relationship, not the individuals.

511

And, um, yeah, so I think in

dating we can be assessing the

512

we ness from the very beginning.

513

So this makes me want to talk

a little bit more about what.

514

Doesn't make someone a good partner.

515

Ken Page, he talks about the attractions

of inspiration and he also talks

516

about what he refers to as refers

to as attractions of deprivation.

517

So, these are relationships I

hear clients talk about often.

518

They're easy to get caught in and, um,

they are characterized by a sense of lack.

519

Okay, so when I think of attractions

of deprivation, I tend to think of,

520

um, do you know the myth of Tantalus?

521

Uh, no.

522

From Greek mythology?

523

Okay.

524

So he was a king that was punished by,

uh, Zeus, uh, for some, something he did.

525

I don't remember what he did, but

he was punished by being placed

526

in a pool and near a fruit tree.

527

But the pool would, the water would rise

up right below his mouth and then go back

528

down over and over again all day long.

529

And he was punished.

530

He was very, very thirsty, and so

he wasn't able to drink any water,

531

and the fruit tree was like just out

of reach, and he was super hungry.

532

This is his eternity, so,

533

yeah, and so I think these attractions of

deprivation can have that experience where

534

it's like, it kind of feels like it's, we

almost get the love that we really need,

535

but then we never quite get all of it.

536

Josh: It reminds me of the

kind of intermittent, uh,

537

uh, reward reinforcement.

538

Jessica: Beautiful.

539

Yeah.

540

Josh: Um.

541

You probably know the studies better

than I do, but, uh, the kind of thing

542

where they've shown where rats and mice

and cages, and I think this has also

543

been shown to be true in humans, where

if we're intermittently reinforced for

544

doing something, like we do something

and sometimes we get a great result

545

Jessica: and

546

Josh: other times we don't.

547

It's more addictive, more engaging,

kind of, we want to do it more than

548

if we always get a good result.

549

Jessica: That's right, yeah.

550

Josh: And this is what drives

gambling and, you know, all

551

these other things, anyway.

552

Jessica: Yeah, it's a fascinating finding.

553

Yeah, they found that the, the mice,

when the mice were able to consistently

554

push a lever and get food or some sort of

substance, They were much less interested

555

in the lever than the rats who pushed

the lever, uh, and the food or drugs or

556

whatever only came out some of the time.

557

Yeah.

558

And that's exactly right.

559

And, um, Ken talks about that.

560

This is what we're talking about is

they're very, very addictive because that

561

circuitry gets activated inside of us.

562

We feel like maybe if I just try harder.

563

Josh: If I just do it right, if

I just communicate in the right

564

way to them, or if I just really

565

Jessica: Yeah, so characteristics

of an attraction of deprivation.

566

People may recognize

these from their lives.

567

This is when somebody may exhibit

lying or cheating behaviors.

568

Selfish behavior, unavailability.

569

Josh: When you say selfish

behavior, I've been selfish, so

570

Jessica: I just want to clarify,

571

Josh: what are we talking about

when we say selfish behavior?

572

Jessica: Yeah.

573

Good question.

574

Well, um, okay, how about you're on a

hike and you, your ankle starts to hurt

575

a little bit and your partner, um, really

just kind of pushes you to keep going.

576

Josh: Okay.

577

Yeah.

578

Yeah.

579

It's like they're, they're more

excited about finishing the hike.

580

Then they are about taking

care of you and your ankle.

581

Jessica: You got it?

582

Mm-Hmm.

583

. Uh, so selfish behavior unavailability

that maybe can't or won't commit to

584

fully, don't have time to spend with you.

585

Addictive behavior.

586

Hurtful behavior, right?

587

Maybe they're making digs or, um,

otherwise not really respecting you.

588

Uh, untreated or unresolved

emotional or psychological disorders.

589

Josh: And so again, with the untreated

or unresolved psychological disorders,

590

we're not talking about, uh, if you might

be experiencing depression or anxiety,

591

it's like a rule out for a relationship.

592

We're really talking, like, what

would be an example of that?

593

Jessica: Yeah, so untreated or unresolved,

uh, emotional psychological disorders

594

that might include bipolar disorder,

uh, that is not being addressed through

595

therapy or medication, uh, or major

depressive disorder where the person

596

really just refuses to get help for

it, were definitely, again, um, We

597

don't want you to come away from this

thinking you have to be perfect or,

598

um, you know, perfectly well adjusted

in order to have a relationship.

599

Many, many people have chronic depression

and anxiety that they have to manage.

600

Um, so maybe, uh, analogy might be

like, Um, Say you've, you've, you

601

know, are dating and you meet somebody

who's diabetic but they refuse to

602

take insulin, for example, right?

603

Um, if somebody is experiencing

depression, anxiety, how

604

are they managing that?

605

Are they going to therapy?

606

Are they taking other self care?

607

Approaches or not.

608

Josh: Right, like are they

getting support in some way?

609

Are they engaged in their healing?

610

Jessica: Mm

611

hmm.

612

Josh: All right.

613

And, and I would imagine also some of

these things point back to some of the

614

other criteria on this list, right?

615

Are they able to show up

in a way that is engaging?

616

that is consistently available, where

if, you know, their, uh, experience of

617

their mental health is such that, uh,

they may still be getting support, but

618

it's, it's so intense right now that

they just aren't consistently available.

619

Jessica: Yes.

620

Josh: That may not be, at this

time, the right fit for a partner.

621

Jessica: Mm hmm.

622

That's right.

623

Josh: And it can be so, this is the

thing I think about these attractions

624

of deprivation, it can be so tempting,

uh, to want to be there to help them

625

heal, whether it's from addiction or

whether it's from a major mental illness.

626

And, you know, I know I've sometimes

had the thought like, well, if

627

I'm not there, who else will be?

628

Um,

629

Josh: which is putting a lot of

responsibility on your shoulders.

630

Kind of over emphasizing or

maybe a distortion of our own

631

importance sometimes, right?

632

Like, oh, I have to save this person,

um, when it's like, it's not about

633

me or it's not about us, right?

634

It's about, uh,

635

are they really available for the

kind of relationship, the kind

636

of mutual, equal relationship

637

Jessica: that

638

Josh: we're really craving underneath?

639

Yeah,

640

Jessica: well, and I, I imagine there

may be a question in some listeners minds

641

of like, what about the loyalty piece?

642

Right.

643

Um, and I think that, again,

that, that comes back.

644

So to flesh that out a little bit.

645

Okay.

646

You just told me that I should be

loyal and look for loyal partners,

647

and then you're also telling me,

like, if someone's going through

648

something and they aren't available for

relationship, I should just cut and run.

649

That seems like it

doesn't quite make sense.

650

Um, and I think, again, this comes

back to, like, are they doing

651

anything to take care of themselves?

652

Um, there is, I think with the

loyalty piece, we have to balance

653

loyalty to ourselves and loyalty

to the other person, right?

654

If you're letting go of all of your

needs and not taking care of yourself,

655

that actually doesn't benefit the other

person or the relationship at all.

656

Josh: And I think there's also an

interesting nuance here between what

657

are we looking for at the beginning of a

relationship and how are we with someone

658

who we're in a committed partnership with.

659

Jessica: Yes.

660

Josh: Yes.

661

And that, uh, Yes.

662

You know, loyalty obviously shows up

differently at each stage, as you were

663

saying earlier, at each stage of dating,

uh, we may Uh, want to pause before

664

getting into a relationship with somebody,

for example, who's experiencing addiction.

665

Jessica: Yeah.

666

Josh: Untreated addiction.

667

Jessica: Right.

668

Josh: Um, that may not be the right

time to be in a relationship with

669

that person, uh, versus if perhaps

our committed partner, uh, becomes,

670

you know, has an accident, goes,

starts getting pain medication

671

for their pain, becomes addicted.

672

Mm hmm.

673

Josh: It's a different, maybe

a different conversation.

674

There is still perhaps a choice point at

some point in there, you know, we don't

675

need to go too far down that rabbit hole.

676

But it's just there may be a different

kind of, uh, process or like a way of

677

showing up in that moment that we wouldn't

have done at a stage of relationship

678

where it's like three weeks into knowing

this person, it's not appropriate for

679

us to be supporting them at that level.

680

Jessica: Yes.

681

Yeah, I think that's a really great point.

682

Uh, and I think part of what's happening

in here when we're dating is we're

683

really, we're making guesses at how

someone will be long term based on

684

the information that we're getting.

685

Josh: Which is kind of a foolish

endeavor given how completely

686

unpredictable life is and, you know, just

fundamentally we just don't know, right?

687

We just, we never know how

things are going to turn out.

688

We're just kind of taking our best guess.

689

We're gathering the information

we can and making Yeah,

690

Jessica: it is a bit of a fool's

errand, and we have to do our

691

best with that process, right?

692

And so, I think that, you know, if at the

beginning of a relationship, you know,

693

you You realize, gosh, okay, this person

is really suffering from an addiction.

694

Part of the thinking there is,

well, if this is what I'm finding

695

them in right now, the best

predictor of the future is the past.

696

Uh, and so I'm going to make the

assumption that if he's not willing to get

697

help or they're not willing to get help,

then this, this may only get worse, right?

698

Many mental health issues

without treatment just get worse.

699

Um, and so at that point, It may not be

accurate, but it may be self protective.

700

So those are the characteristics

of an attraction of deprivation.

701

I want to shift over to, back to

Logan Ury's book, and some of the

702

things that she pointed out are, uh,

easily observable traits that a lot of

703

people look for when they are dating.

704

That research actually shows,

Do not contribute to long

705

term relationship happiness.

706

Josh: I'm so excited for this list.

707

Jessica: I wonder if you have

guesses what is on this list.

708

Josh: I may have poked a little bit at

Logan Urie's book as I was preparing

709

for this episode, so I may have

some thoughts or ideas, um, but I'm

710

excited to get into the piece around

attraction as well, which may be part

711

of this list and maybe also a good one.

712

Separate conversation, but, uh, but go

ahead, I want to hear what's on this list.

713

Jessica: So the four things that

she, uh, discusses are wealth, and

714

we'll add a little caveat here.

715

Money does matter in general for

happiness and for relationships,

716

but only to a point.

717

So after your needs are, are really

met and a little more than that,

718

you know, going for the wealthiest

partner isn't going to have any

719

impact on relationship happiness.

720

The second one is physical attractiveness.

721

Uh, the reasoning there is lust fades.

722

Right?

723

Even if you've got the hottest,

uh, relation, or hottest partner

724

you could imagine, your lust

is going to fade over time.

725

It's not going to go away necessarily,

but, um, we have to have more

726

than that for the happiness.

727

Uh, similar personalities.

728

That's

729

Jessica: one I think will

maybe surprise some people.

730

And also shared hobbies.

731

Shared hobbies do not, it's, it's

so funny to me, I love that this

732

is on this list because I always

hear people say, well, I need to

733

find someone with common interests.

734

And that is not my experience

as a, as a dating coach seeing

735

a lot of relationships form.

736

That really doesn't, it doesn't matter

as much as people think it does.

737

Right.

738

Josh: Interesting.

739

Jessica: Okay.

740

Josh: Okay.

741

So wealth, physical attractiveness.

742

What's the third one?

743

Jessica: Similar personalities.

744

Similar personalities.

745

Like, I'm introverted

and I need an introvert.

746

Josh: Mm hmm.

747

Shared interests.

748

Okay.

749

But I think we should

talk about attraction.

750

Great.

751

Because that's, that's, uh, you know,

I think some of the other ones are

752

maybe a little bit less surprising

or less kind of controversial.

753

But a lot of us have this thought

that's like, well, I've got

754

to be attracted to the person.

755

Mm

756

Josh: hmm.

757

We don't even necessarily know what that

means, I think, when we say that, right?

758

There's like a lot of levels of

attraction that when we really unpack

759

it, there are a lot of different ways

that we're attracted to somebody.

760

So yeah, I'm, I'm curious to hear what

your thoughts are on this, because

761

I hear what Logan Urie is saying

about physical attractiveness and

762

that fades over time and that makes

sense and our bodies change, right?

763

So it's like even if you marry

the absolute hottest 20 years, are

764

they still gonna look like that?

765

No, they're gonna have whatever, they're

gonna have little wrinkles and things and,

766

you know, I've gained weight and whatever.

767

And so it's, if you're just relying

on that to keep your connection

768

going, you're going to be in trouble.

769

Jessica: Yes.

770

Josh: For any kind of meaningful

long term relationship.

771

And we want to be attracted

to the person we're with.

772

Jessica: Absolutely.

773

Absolutely.

774

Yes.

775

We want to be attracted to our partner.

776

It's important to be

attracted to our partner.

777

In fact, um, sexual satisfaction

is one huge piece of long

778

term relationship happiness.

779

Um, Now, whether you are attracted

to someone is a little different

780

from physical attractiveness.

781

Josh: Tell me more.

782

Jessica: So, let's think about

physical attractiveness as like, So,

783

what does society say about whether

or not this person is attractive?

784

Okay.

785

So, um, going back to Ken Page, one of

the concepts he presents that I love

786

is, uh, you know, looking at partners,

uh, looking at your attraction to

787

partners on a scale of zero to 10.

788

And what he's suggesting there

is you're not looking at, is this

789

person a 10 in the eyes of society?

790

You're looking at how drawn am I

to this person on all levels, okay?

791

And he really recommends actually

aiming for people who you are drawn to,

792

regardless of what society says about

them, your attractive, attraction to

793

them is between a four and a seven.

794

Josh: Wait, what?

795

Hold up.

796

So, a couple of things here.

797

Number one, so we're separating

out, this isn't like a ten on the

798

hot or not whatever online poll.

799

This is your personal attraction to them.

800

And you're telling me that we

shouldn't go for People who are a

801

10 on our own attractiveness scale.

802

Jessica: Yes, that's correct.

803

Well, um, I mean, you can give it a try.

804

Experiment at home.

805

Yeah, really.

806

Go do research and

development, see how that goes.

807

I mean, for a lot of people, they do go

for the, what for them is a 10 out of 10,

808

makes their knees weak and everything.

809

Ken's point, which I agree with, is

that Oftentimes, it's not just about

810

physical attraction or say, pheromones,

it's also about, um, some way that

811

they get our attachment system going.

812

Um, coming back to intermittent

reinforcement, it's often people who,

813

um, There's some sort of intermittent

reinforcement experience where we're

814

actually not going to get all the

things that we need from them and we

815

kind of pick this up on some level.

816

They may be people who remind us of

people from the past and basically they

817

just get our nervous system a little

bit activated in addition to attracted.

818

Josh: Mm.

819

Jessica: And so,

820

Josh: So they get our nervous

system activated in what way?

821

Say more about that.

822

Jessica: Yeah, okay.

823

So, you know, these concepts

feel like nesting, um, dolls.

824

Yeah, absolutely.

825

It's like I want to

explain all the things.

826

Yeah.

827

Um, okay.

828

So, um, You've probably heard the

like kind of pop psychology belief

829

that like we're attracted to people

who remind us of our mom or our dad.

830

Sure.

831

Jessica: Okay.

832

So it's kind of along those lines.

833

Other people, we, we project onto them.

834

Okay.

835

They remind us of people from our

past without us even really realizing.

836

Okay.

837

And so for a lot of people, the 10 out

of 10 is not just a hottie, doesn't just

838

fit our like, whatever type we might.

839

They often also, um, maybe on a

very sort of unconscious level, um,

840

remind us of somebody who we were

very attached to, but maybe didn't

841

get all of our needs met by, okay?

842

And there's a part of our nervous

system that wants to, uh, correct that.

843

Correct that experience, okay?

844

So this is referred to

as repetition compulsion.

845

Okay.

846

If you want to go real Freudian.

847

Ooh.

848

Ooh.

849

Freudian.

850

So we're drawn to relationships where

they remind us of past, um, sort of

851

unmet needs and we want to fix that.

852

On, on an unconscious level.

853

So if my dad was distant, I might have

a tendency to be attracted to people

854

who are a little aloof and may not be

that emotionally responsive, accessible,

855

responsive, engaged kind of person.

856

But my nervous system, uh, gets

really activated around them and

857

kind of draws me closer to them

in a way that feels like love.

858

Mm-Hmm.

859

. Because my first experience of a, um.

860

A man that I had deep love for

was one where there was love,

861

but also a lot of distance.

862

Josh: And so it, it, uh, it can often

feel, we kind of, I think, equate it

863

to that experience that we see in the

media and whatever, and like love at

864

first sight, like super intense, weak

at the knees, like the kind of romance

865

novel, like, ah, kind of experience.

866

And, um, what I'm, what I'm getting

and I, kind of what I, I think I've

867

seen also in my own life is that is,

it's very, like, almost addicting.

868

Jessica: Yeah.

869

Josh: It kind of has that, that experience

of, like, almost a compulsion or a, like,

870

kind of that intermittent reinforcement,

like, um, we kind of get high off of it

871

and we

872

Josh: kind of mix up some of those

signals also about what is attraction

873

and what is this other unmet need

trying to get expressed or get met.

874

Um, that kind of feels very compelling,

but ultimately is very likely to

875

be pretty unsatisfying in a long

term relationship and not actually

876

really meeting these deeper needs for

connection and intimacy and safety.

877

Jessica: Yeah, one of the chapters Logan

has in her book is called F the Spark.

878

Josh: I really appreciate

that, that, uh, title.

879

Jessica: Yes.

880

I know.

881

I love that too.

882

Yeah.

883

And, and the, the sort of idea in there

is in healthy long term relationships,

884

oftentimes attraction is something

that deepens over time and it may not

885

actually be present like, like that

sort of hot physical attraction that

886

you associate with the 10 out of 10.

887

That's not necessarily going to be

present right at the beginning when

888

you see them on the app, when you

talk to them, um, on the phone, when

889

you meet them for the first time.

890

Mm hmm.

891

Jessica: That sort of thing deepens

as you two create that really

892

secure, uh, warm connection.

893

I think that's very

surprising for some people.

894

Yeah.

895

Josh: Very counterintuitive.

896

It goes against all of the, the

love stories that we see, or almost

897

all the love stories that we see

in media and books and TV and.

898

Jessica: Yeah.

899

I really want to emphasize here,

because I think it's interesting.

900

easy to not hear this

totally, um, correctly.

901

We're not saying that you should keep

seeing someone if you are not attracted

902

to them or if your attraction to them

is low and just keeps getting lower.

903

That is not what we're saying.

904

Good.

905

Clarification.

906

As

907

Jessica: good a person as they are,

you do need to be attracted to them

908

and, you know, going Noticing your own

attraction, how it is over time, and

909

maybe not going for the 10 out of 10.

910

Um, and also, you know, just sort

of letting go of, gosh, what does

911

society think about this person and

their attractiveness, and noticing

912

your own draw to them on multiple

levels, physical, emotional, social.

913

spiritual, all of

914

Josh: them.

915

Yeah.

916

And so we're aiming for that

4 to 7 window out of 10.

917

Uh, just like you're saying,

we're not saying, Oh, if

918

it's a one, just keep going.

919

You're going to get the

track to them eventually.

920

No, we're not saying that, but, um,

kind of maybe dial it back from the

921

most intense 10 out of 10 because

that's going to be cause you problems.

922

Yeah.

923

Jessica: So, um, there,

there are a few other.

924

of these traits that are like easy to

look for but not actually applicable or,

925

um, important in long term relationships.

926

I want to name from that same study

I mentioned earlier from Samantha

927

Joel, um, with the machine learning

models that assess whether specific

928

traits in a mate were predictive

of happiness with that mate.

929

Mm hmm.

930

Uh, first one, race or ethnicity.

931

We have religious affiliation.

932

Josh: Really?

933

Jessica: Yeah.

934

Height.

935

Occupation.

936

Mm hmm.

937

Physical attractiveness.

938

Mm hmm.

939

Previous marital status.

940

Mm hmm.

941

Josh: Mm

942

Jessica: hmm.

943

Sexual tastes.

944

Josh: Interesting.

945

Jessica: And, sorry, last

one, similarity to oneself.

946

Josh: Mm hmm.

947

So, sexual taste, like, whether

or not they're similar to you or

948

indissimilar things, doesn't actually

correlate with, you know, sex.

949

Jessica: Right.

950

And I imagine, you know, if we

go back to what does matter, you

951

know, there's emotional stability,

kindness, loyalty, growth mindset.

952

Uh, the growth mindset in

particular, you know, um, Dan

953

Savage talks about, um, GGG, right?

954

Do you remember what the?

955

Josh: Good giving and

956

Jessica: Good giving, do I remember?

957

Good giving and game.

958

You got it.

959

So, um, they've got some skill.

960

That's a good one, right?

961

See, I'm not even remembering.

962

I'm like, here's a concept.

963

I'm an expert.

964

Josh: Uh, Dan Sapp.

965

Yeah.

966

My takeaway from that, I actually don't

remember exactly what his definition of

967

it was, was essentially that are they,

are Uh, kind of generous, uh, in the

968

bedroom and are they up for trying things?

969

Are they willing to explore

with you and experiment and

970

kind of, uh, be in it together?

971

Jessica: Um.

972

Yes.

973

Josh: So I think that's where you're

going with that growth mindset.

974

If I,

975

Jessica: you've got it.

976

Josh: Whether or not we have

the same tastes, are you,

977

are you open to exploring?

978

Are you open to being kind of experiment?

979

Are you interested in, in helping

your partner experience sexual

980

satisfaction and joy and happiness?

981

Jessica: Absolutely.

982

You got it.

983

Josh: So what's interesting I think

about this conversation is that this

984

list of what to look for in a partner

is also in many ways a really good

985

roadmap for how to be a good partner.

986

And that one of the, one of the traps

I think we can get into when we are.

987

Dating.

988

We're kind of serious about looking

for our long term partner is we get

989

into this very evaluative checklist

kind of assessing the other person.

990

Are they, are they this?

991

Are they that?

992

Are they that?

993

Nope.

994

Okay, next.

995

You know, and we forget

about how are we showing up?

996

Are we showing up in a way

that our, our partner will

997

recognize us when they find us?

998

Jessica: Yeah.

999

Yep.

00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:29,130

Josh: Um, and that this isn't a just

about what can I get from this person.

00:49:29,350 --> 00:49:29,600

Jessica: Yeah.

00:49:29,650 --> 00:49:34,800

Josh: Um, in the words of my friend and,

and coach Zoe Tobey, uh, what can I give?

00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:35,600

Mm hmm.

00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,490

Josh: That, that kind of switching from

that what can I get, what can I get,

00:49:38,490 --> 00:49:40,230

what can I get to, what can I give?

00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:41,280

Who are we together?

00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:41,690

Yeah.

00:49:41,700 --> 00:49:45,730

Josh: What is, do we have a shared vision

for partnership, for our relationship, for

00:49:45,730 --> 00:49:47,320

the kind of life we want to have together?

00:49:47,490 --> 00:49:51,240

Jessica: Yeah, I'm so glad you're pointing

that out because I think that is kind of

00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:55,340

the downside of knowing all these things

is you can, you can go into, I see a

00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:56,570

lot of my clients struggling with this.

00:49:56,580 --> 00:49:59,950

They'll go into dates and it's like,

I didn't really feel a connection.

00:49:59,990 --> 00:50:03,790

And like, I felt like, it just

sort of felt kind of businessy

00:50:03,790 --> 00:50:05,070

or formal or something.

00:50:05,730 --> 00:50:06,020

And

00:50:06,250 --> 00:50:08,640

Josh: it's like, yeah, and I

was sitting there assessing

00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:09,405

them on all these questions.

00:50:09,565 --> 00:50:10,295

Criteria.

00:50:10,355 --> 00:50:10,745

Jessica: Right.

00:50:10,755 --> 00:50:11,715

Josh: And I wasn't present.

00:50:11,715 --> 00:50:13,115

So it's of course you weren't connected.

00:50:13,125 --> 00:50:13,145

Yeah.

00:50:13,155 --> 00:50:14,615

Like you weren't, you weren't there.

00:50:14,615 --> 00:50:17,865

You weren't showing up and being

interested in doing the things that

00:50:17,865 --> 00:50:20,405

would naturally create a connection.

00:50:20,425 --> 00:50:20,855

Jessica: Yeah.

00:50:20,855 --> 00:50:20,895

Josh: Yeah.

00:50:20,895 --> 00:50:25,775

And so it's such a, yeah, we can, we can

so miss the opportunities in that way.

00:50:25,775 --> 00:50:26,035

Yeah.

00:50:26,315 --> 00:50:26,505

Jessica: Yeah.

00:50:26,505 --> 00:50:30,965

And I think that goes back to

really kind of like settling into

00:50:30,965 --> 00:50:33,765

the truth of like really dating

for a long term relationship.

00:50:33,785 --> 00:50:34,855

It takes time.

00:50:35,005 --> 00:50:35,325

Right.

00:50:35,385 --> 00:50:36,915

So allowing.

00:50:37,310 --> 00:50:41,750

Um, allowing you and the other

person to take that time, right?

00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:45,040

And going into a date, yes, I

want to be aware of things that,

00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:46,630

that they might be showing me.

00:50:47,260 --> 00:50:51,690

And like, let your evaluative brain know

we're going to take the time needed to

00:50:51,690 --> 00:50:53,190

really gather the information we need.

00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:55,100

We don't have to do it within one date.

00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:00,270

Um, and I think that can really bring

in more of that sense of ease and like,

00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,430

can we just be together and see what's

possible when we're more present?

00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:06,020

Josh: Yeah.

00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:07,190

Yeah.

00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:07,660

I love that.

00:51:08,875 --> 00:51:14,585

Okay, I, uh, so that, we've just talked

about how, what does science have to say

00:51:14,585 --> 00:51:18,415

about what makes a good partner in a lot

of wonderful depth here, going in all

00:51:18,415 --> 00:51:20,745

kinds of wonderfully nuanced rabbit holes.

00:51:21,255 --> 00:51:25,115

Um, so let's go into the second question

here, which is how do I clarify?

00:51:26,525 --> 00:51:27,255

Jessica: Yes.

00:51:28,235 --> 00:51:33,405

Yeah, because, uh, research is

research, and you are not a research

00:51:33,405 --> 00:51:34,815

study, you are an individual.

00:51:35,485 --> 00:51:41,955

And so, um, the tool that we

like to use on our team, uh,

00:51:42,205 --> 00:51:44,585

is, there's two tools actually.

00:51:44,595 --> 00:51:46,835

One is a relationship inventory.

00:51:47,530 --> 00:51:48,040

Okay.

00:51:48,660 --> 00:51:56,880

And this is where we are inventorying

in a, uh, spreadsheet past relationships

00:51:56,940 --> 00:52:01,690

and all sorts of things about those

relationships, uh, including what

00:52:01,730 --> 00:52:03,145

it taught us about what we do.

00:52:03,485 --> 00:52:05,735

Need or don't need in a relationship.

00:52:06,075 --> 00:52:06,305

Okay.

00:52:06,305 --> 00:52:09,875

So that's number one, looking at

the past to gain some insight.

00:52:11,305 --> 00:52:16,215

And then number two is something

called an ideal mate exercise.

00:52:16,795 --> 00:52:20,935

This I got from fellow therapist and

dating coach Pella Schaefer Weissman,

00:52:20,935 --> 00:52:24,885

and it's adapted from a book by

David Steele called Conscious Dating.

00:52:25,445 --> 00:52:29,745

And basically it's a three tiered

list where you write out everything

00:52:29,755 --> 00:52:34,135

that you that you are looking for

in a mate, and then you prioritize,

00:52:34,655 --> 00:52:36,675

uh, all of those different things.

00:52:38,465 --> 00:52:40,575

Um, yeah.

00:52:40,575 --> 00:52:42,545

So those are our two main tools.

00:52:42,785 --> 00:52:43,115

Josh: Okay.

00:52:43,345 --> 00:52:45,385

Are these tools that we can

make available to folks?

00:52:45,415 --> 00:52:45,865

Jessica: They are.

00:52:45,945 --> 00:52:46,515

Josh: On the pod?

00:52:46,575 --> 00:52:47,085

Jessica: Yeah.

00:52:47,195 --> 00:52:47,785

On the pod.

00:52:49,585 --> 00:52:50,665

Yeah, we'll definitely share those.

00:52:51,145 --> 00:52:52,835

Take a look in the show notes.

00:52:53,255 --> 00:52:58,935

Josh: And is there any, uh, guidance or,

you Kind of main takeaways from those

00:52:58,935 --> 00:53:00,655

things that we can share with folks?

00:53:01,225 --> 00:53:03,555

Jessica: Yeah, well, we'll talk

a little bit more about the ideal

00:53:03,555 --> 00:53:04,885

mate exercise in a little bit.

00:53:04,945 --> 00:53:08,555

Um, one thing I'll just say about the

relationship inventory, the point of

00:53:08,555 --> 00:53:10,865

that one is to really assess patterns.

00:53:11,405 --> 00:53:16,485

So, part of what we actually have people

do is, uh, we have them complete it

00:53:16,785 --> 00:53:21,370

such that they're completing it, um,

not By looking at one relationship at

00:53:21,370 --> 00:53:25,680

a time, but by looking at one dimension

of all their relationships at a time.

00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:30,930

So for example, um, you

know, attachment style.

00:53:31,590 --> 00:53:34,340

Okay, so if they go through,

they've got a bunch of relationships

00:53:34,340 --> 00:53:38,070

they're inventorying, they're

looking at the attachment style,

00:53:38,070 --> 00:53:41,660

writing down the attachment style

of each partner one at a time.

00:53:41,830 --> 00:53:42,070

Okay.

00:53:42,110 --> 00:53:45,010

So that they can really see the

pattern over time if there is one.

00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:45,420

Okay.

00:53:45,580 --> 00:53:46,050

Okay.

00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:47,260

So that's number one.

00:53:47,815 --> 00:53:51,225

Number two, I think this is a really

great way to look in particular

00:53:51,225 --> 00:53:55,215

for what we might refer to as

like your relationship kryptonite.

00:53:56,015 --> 00:54:01,835

So if you start to see that you

have like a soft spot for say, I

00:54:01,835 --> 00:54:08,985

don't know, creative souls who also

have, uh, untreated mental illness.

00:54:09,250 --> 00:54:13,240

And an avoidant attachment style,

therefore never commit to you.

00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,780

Um, that's some good information.

00:54:15,890 --> 00:54:16,140

Yeah.

00:54:16,170 --> 00:54:16,510

Right?

00:54:16,510 --> 00:54:19,400

So, we all have kind of

those, those soft spots.

00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,630

And, um, I think that only by looking

back and really assessing things

00:54:23,630 --> 00:54:25,390

over time can we start to see them.

00:54:26,450 --> 00:54:30,120

Josh: That's, that's really interesting

because I, you know, as we were saying,

00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,280

we can talk about the research and

all these things all day, and then

00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,560

there are different things for each

of us that are those little points.

00:54:36,810 --> 00:54:41,410

Points where we get hooked in by an

old pattern, for example, like what

00:54:41,410 --> 00:54:46,250

you're saying, and having some way

to look back in our own lives and

00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:48,640

see, oh, this is what it is for me.

00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:50,360

This is how it shows up for me.

00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:51,980

This is what I need to be aware of.

00:54:52,310 --> 00:54:54,630

Which is not going to be relevant

for everybody else, but it's super

00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:56,090

important for you to know for yourself.

00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:56,700

Jessica: Absolutely.

00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:57,740

Mm hmm.

00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:59,130

Yeah.

00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,970

The other resource that I really love

for this is Ken Page's book, Deeper

00:55:02,970 --> 00:55:04,390

Dating, which I mentioned earlier.

00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,030

There's a bunch of exercises in

there to help you discover what

00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:09,820

he refers to as your core gifts.

00:55:10,350 --> 00:55:14,700

And his whole premise is that we

all have gifts and when we end

00:55:14,700 --> 00:55:18,770

up being chronically single or in

relationships that are characterized

00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:23,860

by that kind of deprivational

quality, oftentimes we are not finding

00:55:23,860 --> 00:55:25,530

people who can honor our gifts.

00:55:26,340 --> 00:55:32,210

So an example of this would be, uh, let's

say, Uh, your core gift is a deep sense

00:55:32,220 --> 00:55:37,010

of kindness and, uh, you have a big heart.

00:55:37,710 --> 00:55:42,040

You may have a tendency, if you're, if

you're not able to really learn how to

00:55:43,050 --> 00:55:47,380

honor that gift within yourself and choose

people who honor it, you may attract

00:55:47,410 --> 00:55:50,295

people who, um, are harsh with you.

00:55:50,915 --> 00:55:57,105

And who are, um, yeah, not, not

respectful of the fact that you,

00:55:57,145 --> 00:55:58,415

you have a big sensitive heart.

00:56:02,495 --> 00:56:07,675

So that would be the, the main thing is

to do a little bit of that work on paper,

00:56:07,685 --> 00:56:09,955

perhaps with a friend or a professional.

00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:14,330

To really sense, uh, what are the things

I've learned from my past relationships

00:56:15,070 --> 00:56:19,920

and to get on paper what are all the

things I think I'm looking for in a mate.

00:56:22,350 --> 00:56:26,360

Josh: I imagine, actually don't know if

you do this with any of, uh, the folks

00:56:26,490 --> 00:56:32,280

you work with, but I imagine it may also

be useful in there to understand what

00:56:32,290 --> 00:56:37,535

are those kind of, uh, On paper things

like that I think I should be looking for

00:56:37,615 --> 00:56:40,645

that we're talking about earlier, these

qualities that don't actually correlate.

00:56:41,225 --> 00:56:42,245

What are those for you?

00:56:42,255 --> 00:56:47,685

Like are you really set on having a

partner who is, you know, also really

00:56:47,695 --> 00:56:54,195

into outdoorsy stuff for instance, or a

partner who is a certain height, um, and

00:56:54,295 --> 00:56:58,265

really kind of asking yourself, actually

one of our clinicians mentioned this to me

00:56:58,265 --> 00:57:02,745

that she also often asks people, will this

impact the quality of your relationship?

00:57:02,805 --> 00:57:03,095

Jessica: Yeah.

00:57:04,165 --> 00:57:08,075

Josh: And really, like, really looking

at that, right, it's like, really, will

00:57:08,075 --> 00:57:12,405

this really impact the quality of a

relationship if you're not both outdoorsy

00:57:12,425 --> 00:57:17,995

or you're not both, you know, therapists,

for instance, or you're not both, uh,

00:57:19,215 --> 00:57:21,785

really into gaming, whatever it might be.

00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,710

Jessica: Yeah, one of the things I really

appreciated that Logan talks about with

00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:31,420

the common interests piece that's a little

bit nuanced is you can absolutely have

00:57:31,420 --> 00:57:35,620

different interests so long as you manage

that in a way that doesn't negatively

00:57:35,630 --> 00:57:39,640

impact, uh, your quality time together.

00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:42,500

in either direction, right?

00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:46,300

Like if you, you want to give your

partner freedom to do the things that

00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:50,770

they love if you don't love them,

and they also need to be, you know,

00:57:50,860 --> 00:57:55,010

spending enough time with you to, to

really continue to deepen that bond.

00:57:55,170 --> 00:57:55,540

Right.

00:57:57,890 --> 00:58:02,450

Josh: The other thing that I've found

helpful in the past, and this also

00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:06,350

comes from Zoe Tobey, who I mentioned

earlier, He talks about creating an

00:58:06,350 --> 00:58:11,480

authentic relationship vision that

is all about how are we together.

00:58:12,030 --> 00:58:13,960

Talking a little bit more about

what we were saying earlier.

00:58:14,590 --> 00:58:15,770

What is the relationship?

00:58:16,190 --> 00:58:18,650

What is that kind of meeting

of the two of you together?

00:58:18,860 --> 00:58:24,380

It's like, uh, and so shifting

from things like, you know,

00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,710

they think the way that I do to.

00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:28,850

We communicate openly and lovingly.

00:58:29,020 --> 00:58:29,420

Jessica: Yes.

00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,750

Josh: That kind of, that's what we're,

we're attuning to, uh, or like we're,

00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:36,730

you know, we love wholeheartedly.

00:58:37,110 --> 00:58:37,710

Like, what

00:58:37,710 --> 00:58:43,240

Josh: are the qualities of how we are

together that I want in a relationship?

00:58:43,260 --> 00:58:43,770

Mm hmm.

00:58:44,350 --> 00:58:48,380

Josh: that will then help me navigate as

I'm exploring relationships with people.

00:58:49,650 --> 00:58:50,880

Is my vision present here?

00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:52,900

Do we have a shared vision?

00:58:53,060 --> 00:58:56,660

Are we both really interested in, you

know, helping each other fulfill our

00:58:56,660 --> 00:58:59,260

purpose as part of our shared vision?

00:58:59,370 --> 00:59:00,620

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:00,660 --> 00:59:01,390

I love that.

00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:07,510

There's an exercise that I like to do with

a lot of clients where we actually have

00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:10,000

them speak to their future partner, right?

00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:10,880

So I'm a drama therapist.

00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:17,040

I like to use role play and sort of

imaginal work and have a practice

00:59:17,050 --> 00:59:20,820

of Speaking to that future partner

and kind of feeling the energy of

00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,700

their rapport and of their dynamic.

00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:22,920

Mm.

00:59:23,260 --> 00:59:27,930

Jessica: Um, and I find that really

powerful, uh, because it, it can be,

00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:32,980

you know, we can shift out of the like

cognitive, cognitive analysis, this

00:59:32,990 --> 00:59:37,970

trait, this trait, this trait, and

shift into like experiencing what we

00:59:37,970 --> 00:59:42,020

want to feel potentially or what we

will feel, feel with that part, person.

00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,480

Josh: That is so interesting

because it's very much like what I

00:59:47,610 --> 00:59:49,200

remember doing when I was younger.

00:59:49,585 --> 00:59:50,975

Looking at online dating profiles.

00:59:51,045 --> 00:59:51,655

Mm hmm.

00:59:51,855 --> 00:59:56,765

Josh: That I got to a point, after doing

more of the kind of looking for the

00:59:56,765 --> 01:00:02,365

check boxes and I had whatever my things

were, and, um, not having great success

01:00:02,365 --> 01:00:04,995

with that, having some relationships

that didn't go the way I wanted them