Summary:

In this conversation, Jennifer MacTavish, Kaitlyn Kitzan, RJ Taylor, and Tianna Brand examine the deepening leadership crisis in the agri-food sector against a backdrop of compounding global and economic crises. The panellists explore how systemic risk aversion is paralyzing traditional governance, and argue that building resilience requires abandoning obsolete status-quo models in favor of radical collaboration, peer-to-peer connection, and reimagined engagement.

Show notes:

The agri-food sector is navigating an unprecedented era of overlapping turbulence, from supply chain disruptions and climate volatility to shifting trade dynamics. Yet beneath these operational pressures lies a deeper, less discussed crisis: a severe shortage of leadership. In this episode of The Future Herd, co-hosts Jesse Hirsh and Jennifer MacTavish are joined by panellists Tianna Brand, RJ Taylor, and Kaitlyn Kitzan to confront this challenge head-on. The central question of the conversation is whether traditional leadership frameworks are fit for an era of chronic uncertainty, or if the industry's default governance models are actively repelling the next generation of changemakers.

A recurring theme throughout the discussion is how recent economic shocks have bred a profound risk aversion among producers and sector organizations. RJ Taylor, a second-generation fish farmer and industry association lead, shares how market volatility and broken supply chain commitments forced his business into extreme caution, creating a painful paradox where he publicly advocates for sector growth while privately pulling back on expansion. Kaitlyn Kitzan, a Saskatchewan grain and cattle producer and consultant, echoes this sentiment, noting that the combination of market penalties and digital toxicity has driven many agricultural leaders to become intensely reserved. Both guests illustrate how the emotional and financial toll of recent years has made conventional leadership roles look less like opportunities and more like endless 'shit sandwiches,' contributing directly to the burnout and vacancies seen on boards today.

To counter this paralysis, the panellists explore practical, grassroots interventions that challenge legacy governance structures. Kitzan shares success stories of shifting annual general meetings from sterile local venues to collaborative, all-inclusive international retreats where members are compelled to connect away from the pressures of the farm. Similarly, Taylor emphasizes the necessity of carving out intentional social spaces and funding peer-to-peer networks for up-and-coming leaders rather than cutting travel and connection budgets during lean times. Tianna Brand adds a crucial foresight perspective, arguing that because historical forecasting data is no longer reliable in a disrupted world, leaders must move away from rigid prediction models and instead build anticipation muscles by asking different questions and tapping into collective community intelligence.

Listeners will take away a refreshing, grounded perspective on how the agri-food sector can survive and innovate through crisis not by doubling down on rigid hierarchies, but by embracing radical flexibility, shared responsibilities like co-chair models, and authentic cross-sector collaboration. This episode matters because it pulls back the curtain on the human cost of agricultural leadership today, offering actionable blueprints for how Canada's food system can redesign its institutions to attract and retain the brilliant minds needed for the future.

Topics: Agri-Food Leadership, Leadership Crisis, Risk Management, Sector Collaboration, Agricultural Innovation, Governance Models, Strategic Foresight

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh and welcome back to another

episode of The Future Herd.

I'm here with my fantastic co-host, Jen McTavish, and we've assumed, uh,

assembled rather and assumed that our panellists are going to weigh in on

the, uh, ephemeral, on the abstract, on the indispensable notion of leadership.

But before we even entertain such a fantastic concept, we'll take a moment

for a little bit of introductions 'cause this is the first time that our

panellists have actually met each other.

So, Tiana, I'm gonna throw to you first only because it was

the conversation we had with you that then inspired this panel.

'cause we thought, you know, we should talk about leadership a little more.

So before we get into it, uh, why don't you share a little bit

of information about yourself.

Sure.

Hi everybody.

Guilty as charged.

I guess my name is, uh, Tiana.

I am, um, I'm a Canadian, but I don't live in Canada anymore.

I'm also French.

That's where I live.

I live in France.

Um, I am a career long public servant, both in Canada and

at the international level.

I've managed programmes and projects and have done a lot of work in foresight,

meaning our look at the present day and how we see the futures unfolding.

Right on.

Should I pass it on to somebody now?

Sure, yeah.

RJ Taylor, I'm a second generation fish farmer here in Ontario.

Um, family business, growing all sorts of different kinds of fish.

Um, both in southern Ontario and then also, um, up in northern

Ontario, uh, in partnership with, uh, first Nation up there.

Shishi, Gowan.

Um, but I'm also just a big fish and science nerd, so, um, I get involved and,

and say yes probably far too many times.

So I also, uh, lead our industry association here in Ontario for fish

farmers, um, and then serve through a, a few different things, um, to,

to further research and innovation in the agriculture sector at large.

Very excited to be here today for this conversation.

Awesome.

Well, good morning from Saskatchewan.

I'm a fourth generation farmer with my family.

We've got a grain and cattle operation here.

Um, but I needed something to keep me busy off the farm as well.

So I started my own consulting company and I work with, uh, mostly

agriculture industry organisations.

Um, so lead like Sask Young Farmers, Sask Young Egg as their general

manager and other organisations like that, um, throughout the day.

So yeah, excited to be here and um, leadership is one of my favourite topics,

so looking forward to diving into it.

Right on.

And you know, as I said before we started recording, there aren't really any rules

or structures to today's conversation.

I suspect the threads and the opportunities for insight are,

are gonna flow quite profusely.

But I, I felt it was good to kind of set the context, which is The Future Herd

is essentially a leadership podcast.

We're, we're kind of interested in how our food is produced in, who is really

essential in making sure that that food gets from where it begins on the

farm to where it ends up on the plate.

But the other through line of the Future herd as a podcast is crisis.

And it's crisis, not just as a theoretical, but something that is

increasingly impacting how we produce our food, how our food is distributed.

And, you know, crisis can be in the abstract.

Presently it's been energy crisis in terms of what's happening in the strait of

our, and literally it's direct impact on diesel prices, on fertiliser availability.

But then of course there's the climate crisis, which is a whole

other dynamic, or where here where I live, there's a bunch of farmers

who've literally been washed out.

We've had so much rain in Eastern Ontario that, that floods ha, have,

have really been a huge issue.

I think the first question, or the first thread is, what does it mean

to be a leader in an era of crisis?

Is that even relevant as leadership changed at all?

Or is it still the same kinda, uh, uh, kitten caboodle?

So, rj, I'm gonna throw to you first partly because you know, when we

had our conversation here in the podcast, you had a very optimistic,

a very confident approach to the way in which you encountered leadership.

While at the same time, you're not hiding your head in the sand in terms

of the volatility and, and the nature of turmoil and turbulence in our economy.

So, uh, why don't you start us off?

How, how do you kind of, uh, uh, uh, complete the circle as it were of

leadership in, in a time of crisis?

Yeah.

Okay.

Jesse, that's, I, I think there's a, there's a few different avenues I can take

that down, but I think, you know, when I view it from a, a fish farming lens, um,

and then, and just a wider agriculture lens, I think, you know, crisis is

such an amazing time for innovation and opportunity and trying new things.

And I really think the role of leadership in that is sometimes,

um, really just sort of paving the way and showing others that like a

new way of doing things is possible.

Um, and I think sometimes that can be in a really large, um, conceptual

space of like bringing people together to try and solve problems.

But, you know, for us on the farm, you know, what we're doing is we're trying

to take fish farming from nearshore to offshore to sort of avoid some of the, the

challenges we see with more erratic storms and warmer waters and things like that.

And that's just something that I've had way more people tell me

that it's not possible or that it's gonna be really challenging, um, or

that we're 10 years away from that.

Then I have people being like, yes, there's a way to do that.

There's a way to innovate and change and, and drive difference.

But, you know, we've been doing it now for five years and it is absolutely possible.

But I think sometimes in the leadership space, when we're, or, or just in

the agriculture space, sorry, we have these conversations and it's like, oh,

that, that change or that innovation, like, we're, we're not there yet.

That's like 10 years away.

But it takes, I think, um, a, a leader to, or a, or a, or a group of leaders

to, to go, oh, well, we're not gonna get there in 10 years if we don't

start trying something new today.

And I think that, that the, the, all the crises we see, they just throw

the fuel on that fire to, to get us moving and, and get us innovating

and, and trying and sometimes failing, but trying harder next time.

Um, as much as we can.

Well, and similarly, Caitlin, one of the big takeaways I had from

our conversation was, you know, the, the processing infrastructure that's

being created in Western Canada, and it combined that with the transportation

needs and the infrastructure needs.

One of the crises I left out in my kind of question was the

tariffs and the trade stuff.

So, you know, building off r J's point about innovation, what are the, the,

the both sources of optimism, but where do you think leadership really makes

a difference in creating these types of new opportunities and enabling the

kind of innovation that, that I think is happening right across our sector?

Yeah, I, and I really like what RJ said about, you know, I think crisis

allows, especially organisations and not-for-profits, um, to innovate, right?

Because those are tend to be the groups who do things, you

know, the same way all the time.

And so when they hit a crisis, they are kind of forced to innovate.

Um, but kind of going on, um, your question around the value added and some

of the processing cap capacity, I think some of these crisises and when we look

at tariffs and international trade and things like that, we're, we're forced to

look what can we do more in Canada, right?

Where can we process more?

Where can we take our ingredients and create them actually

into a food product, right?

And, um, I think some of these crisis has really sped up the whole national

food strategy and, um, the value added.

And you know, that it has been a huge thing for my community of Yorkton.

Um, having two of the largest canola crushing plants, the

largest oat milling plant, right?

And it has changed how our community is, um, the other crisis that you kind

of left out and, you know, this is my opinion and the leadership crisis.

And I think for me, I just wanted to mention it and, you know, it's sad, but

it has also really grown my business selfishly because we see so many

different groups and organisations that don't have that next leader to step in.

And so we've been able to step in even for a transition to prepare

maybe the next leader, um, or, you know, they end up staying with us.

But I think that's something that as an industry and we're starting to see more

of those young leader programmes, but something also, I think we have to be

very mindful because we have less and less people willing to step up, step up

and be a leader within this industry.

Well, and Tiana allow me to use that to throw to you.

Uh, and I, I love the phrasing of the leadership crisis.

To what extent does, uh, uh, a lack of foresight or a lack of long-term

thinking factor in to that dynamic, like if there is a leadership crisis, if we

don't have young people, if we don't have even old people willing to take

over in leadership, that seems to be a real symptom of a, a lack of foresight

and a lack of long term thinking.

Yeah, I sure, absolutely it is.

But I think even sometimes when we take a moment to think, um, long term, we also

need to look at where we were disrupted in that long term thinking and kind of

bring us back to, okay, what do we do now?

Right?

So it does bring us to the leadership crisis or, or, or what have you.

And, and how do we bring, um, I, I think there, there are, there's

lots of young people out there.

Are we speaking their language?

Um, are we getting to how they see, um, leadership as well?

Because I think a lot of times what people see is that there's a, an

abundance of, um, change happening and it feels faster and faster

and the future feels, um, closer.

that doesn't feel like it gives people a lot of time to, okay,

what do we need 10 years from now?

Because that idea, even RJ had brought it up, that idea, things are 10 years out,

the futures are closer than you think.

They, um, we should be acting like the change is coming tomorrow.

And in that regard, start thinking, uh, or start not even planning, but anticipating,

um, what needs to happen, needs to happen next, uh, for, for tomorrow.

They pretend that the future arrives tomorrow, or multiple

futures arrive tomorrow.

And, and what are we doing today to, to help, um, fill those roles?

Well, and let me take that as a opportunity to

throw it back to you, Caitlin.

And, and this is both a curiosity of mine, and I'm curious, uh, from a sectoral

perspective, you know, grain farmers deal with futures and future contracts

all the time, and there's a lot of activity right now happening on future

markets, especially with regard to grains 'cause of what's going on in, uh, you

know, the Ukraine, Russia, what's going on in terms of all Im, how does that

impact the psychology of grain farmers?

How does that impact how you make those decisions?

And I'm trying to, we, we had a goal around there where we sort

of gave some abstract answers.

This is an area where I'm just starting to learn and look at how

grain farmers use contracts and use futures and use comm commodity

markets to make their own decisions.

Help us understand how the kind of rubber hits the road

here in a very practical way.

And then rj, I'm kind of curious to have the same thing happen in terms of

how you project markets and think about people who want to eat your fish and how

that impacts your production as well.

So Jesse, I've never really thought about it that way.

That, you know, and now my mind's, you know, going, so this is gonna

be kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall, but, um, and seeing

what maybe sticks with somebody.

But I think for, you know, our, I'm gonna talk about our farm it, you

know, because that's kind of where my experience is, is we probably, you

know, really, um, did a lot of forward contracting and understanding futures,

um, probably four or five years ago.

And prior to that, that was, you know, things were a little

bit more settled, right?

And it was easier to do.

And then we had a major drought, um, and we did not meet a lot

of our forward contracts and we paid a lot of penalties in it.

And I would say then our farm has become a little bit more reserved, right?

And we've pulled back and, um, we have always, with the uncertainty it has

made all of us say like, okay, we're not gonna plan out now that far, and

we're gonna like take a little bit by a little bit and think about more of

that once we have grain in the bin.

So we've built actually more bin space, we're actually gonna store

and then try to sell, right?

And play that game because we're uncertain, right?

And we don't wanna pay those extra penalties, right?

So that's kind of how being are.

And I think even in leadership, and I know I'm kind of jumping all

over, but it's early for me, so I'm gonna, um, take that, right?

But even in our leadership, I think we've become a lot more reserved too.

I know myself as a leader, I've been a lot more mindful of, what

can I say, when can I say it?

When do I step in?

When do I step out?

Because there's become a lot of uncertainty, right?

And I am, I don't wanna say I'm scared, but it's become challenging.

And it even ties into, um, I did a presentation last

week about harassment, right?

And, you know, leadership and work like what, what I say online or what?

I post online knowing that I'm gonna have one good comment and there's

probably gonna be five trolls who aren't even standing behind their own name,

who are gonna comment on it, right?

And so it's really made, before I used to post everything on

social media, but now I'm like so careful of everything that I say.

And so I think this whole, where I'm gonna turn back is in the last even five years,

I feel like we've become reserved, right?

We've become reserved on how we market our grain.

We've become reserved of what we post online.

We've been reserved of what rooms we show up in, what we say

in those rooms when we say it.

And, um, it's draining all at the same time.

So that's Jesse.

I don't know if that's how you wanted me to answer the question, but that's my,

I

my.

um, can I chime in here for a minute?

'cause I think that's really interesting, Caitlin, what you just said.

And I think it ties back to what Tiana was saying about, you know, with new

leaders, are we speaking their language?

And one of the things that I've noticed, you know, about the, the reservation,

it's not just I'm, I'm more reserved because I'm afraid of the backlash online.

What I'm noticing is that do I wanna put myself in a position of leadership

it's all the shit sandwiches you can eat and what's in it for me

and where's my quality of life?

Right.

I, so I think, yes, there is this sort of like, why would I put myself out

there just to get bashed by people?

and I think that's speaking a little bit to this crisis and leadership that we're

seeing and like people not wanting to step up into these positions of leadership.

And it comes a lot of saving time and energy too.

know, my, my father who's been in the aquaculture sector now

for over 50 years, you know, even when I was a small child, he'd be

like, we'd be sitting at the dinner table and he'd be like, I always have

too much fish or not enough fish.

Why can't I ever have the right amount of fish?

I, I didn't understand it then, but I can tell you the last few years I absolutely

understand that mostly because we've jumped into a, a, a whole new market,

getting into the opening, a grow out part of the business, which is like substantial

opportunity for, for scale and growth.

And my sister and business partner, we, um, slash business partner, I

should say, we're, we're ambitious.

So if we can grow, if we can scale we'll, we'll do it.

And in the first couple years of our grow out farm up north, um, that's what we did.

We thought if we can put more pens in the water and grow

more fish, like let's do it.

But then one year, um, things, but three years ago, things

substantially changed in the market.

Um, and we were stuck with a lot of fish that didn't, um, have a sale.

We had some large commitments from large customers that reneged on them.

And so we put the fish in the freezer and then all of a sudden the bank

was like, oh my goodness, now you're, you're holding onto all this product.

Like, where are the sales?

Where are the sales?

We're like, it's okay.

It's in the freezer.

But the bank was so risk adverse and we're like, we're just

like other livestock groups.

We put it in a silo.

We sell it over the next six to 12 months.

They're like, you need to sell it now in order to make

your certain payment schedule.

And, um, and we ended up having to like, pull everything outta that bank

and pay us a small fortune to switch everything over to Farm Credit Canada.

And the long story short of that is that these last few years of turbulence

have left us completely reserved.

So this year, like I've run out of different sizes of fish.

I would love to be selling more fish.

We could have grown it, but we're just like not a risk tolerance for two people.

Arlan and I, my my sister and I who have a very, very high tolerance for risk.

Our risk tolerance is like a near zero.

So it's incredibly reserved in this market, which is really,

which is really frustrating.

'cause I'm, I'm sort of out there as an industry spokesperson talking

about, you know, we're one of the fastest growing agriculture sectors.

We have so much opportunity for growth.

Um, there's so much opportunity for indigenous economic reconciliation

for, um, um, more further processing and opportunities in Northern Ontario.

But then it's like, I'm also a farmer over here being like, yes,

I have those opportunities for growth and I'm, I'm not taking them.

And I, I see that all over the agriculture sector at large.

So it is like a, a, a disconnect between like political leadership and even

those advocating for our sector and like those of us farmers on the front lines

trying to, you know, having been stung.

I, I think there's a fair amount of folks in those first couple years

of the pandemic that were also stunned, but now we're in this time

and you're like, I'm not taking those, those risks like I did before.

Um, which leaves, you know, all those bigger issues of food

sovereignty and food security and.

Further processing and expansion and all that stuff is, uh, on pause or diminished.

uh, I was gonna jump in anyways 'cause I, I'm hearing on one hand,

crisis is a, is an opportunity for innovation and yet on the other hand

we're seeing, um, risk adverse, right?

So how, how can you be innovative in a risk inver adverse environment?

and this, these questions around what kind of leader, like, who wants to step up,

who wants to step into this, you know, this void and, and munch away on that

delicious sandwich you mentioned, Jen.

So I think in some ways have been applying the, the status quo

vision of what a leader is, right?

The fire, the person that puts out the fire, multiple fires, um, and at

the same time tries to other fires or means of managing those fires.

So I'm wondering if we need to take another sort of, um, worldview of

what a leader is and what a leader could do in these types of, um, in the

agricultural environment writ large.

Because we do a lot of work based on past, that's how we forecast a lot of

how we're going to be doing our, um, managing, I shouldn't say our, 'cause

I've never been a farmer other than my small chicken flock that I have in

my backyard and my vegetable patch.

But having worked a long time in, in, um, the animal health, um,

and, uh, welfare environment, think I can say something about that.

So we do a lot of, uh, work about forecasting.

So we're basing our, our are decisions on past data and past data

has, um, gone all over the map now.

So we don't have a means of forecasting anymore.

We need to be much broader and anticipating more.

So what do those leaders look like in, um, that we are, we're,

we're slashing the old model here of what a leader should be doing.

And based on, you know, your, your knowledge and your, um,

experience, what could that, what could those leaders look like?

Well, and in particular one of the through lines I think

that came in that was risk.

do leaders entertain risk and and what is the framework or

the concept for that risk?

You know, I, I really liked Caitlyn's metaphor of the grain storage, or not

metaphor, Caitlyn's example of the grain storage and r j's example of the freezer.

'cause both allow for a little bit of resilience.

What is the leadership equivalent of that?

Because I, I, I was shaking my head and I, I was getting emotional both when

Kaitlyn was like, you know, yeah, I don't post as much anymore and there's

always, you know, nameless assholes who are just gonna throw shit at me and

then Jen brings up the shit sandwich.

know, RJ again, I'm gonna throw to you as the optimist, where

does risk play a role in all this?

And in particular, let's call it reputational risk or even emotional risk.

'cause that is a part of putting yourself out there, let alone your

point about the financial risk, you know, props to farm Credit Canada.

But nonetheless, it sounds like you incurred a lot of stress that is now

impacting how you make your decisions.

Yeah.

Well, I guess a roundabout way of answering that question is something that

we think a lot about, which is that when we're trying to, when times get tougher

or more reserved, like the, this, I find that companies or organisations like

find a place to trim in their travel budgets and their conference budgets.

And that's something that I, I, I really encourage people not to do because I

find working in agriculture, especially during, um, tougher, leaner times, um, it

can, it, you're, you're not necessarily like out and about talking with other

farmers and like getting a few different perspectives be you're, you're, you're,

you're in that quintessential silo.

And so one thing, you know, even our, our, our industry association, usually

we do a summer grower gathering every few years of like senior leaders

and owners and managers and things.

And this year, um, we were like, those people see each other all the time.

Let's all cherry pick our up and comers from these different, from all

of these companies and like, make it really enticing, like the association

paid for them to get together.

And like we were expecting about maybe 15 and like we blasted through at I think

30, 30 participants and just like watching those folks in the room debate things

together and go, that's how I do it.

This is how I do it.

That sort of approach, um, really helps de de develop the, the leadership and

like help push the whole herd along instead of, um, the few odd ones.

So I definitely wanted to say like, I think a, a really big aspect of

leadership is getting away from the farm or away from the business

and like talking to other people.

And so whether or not the leader is the person that creates that in, in

atmosphere or that is the atmosphere that we're developing those leaders

is, is I think a really big contributor to what helps our entire sector.

Maybe I'll just jump in here.

And I love what RJ says about like bringing people together, right?

And we see that, um, in the sectors that I work mostly in as well.

But another like really practical thing that we've tried now in

a few different organisations.

Like when we're struggling, nobody wants to be the chair of, you know, the board

or nobody wants to like, you know, take on maybe that a little bit of extra role.

We've tried co-chairs, right?

And so it's this shared responsibility.

It's, you know, they both are giving their time, but they've

got each other to lean on, right?

Or if I can't, you know, if somebody's not available, there's somebody else and

it just kind of takes the pressure off.

And sometimes it's, you know, we try to like switch co-chairs, like maybe

they're two year terms, but you know, one and they're, you know, transitioning

and there's this opportunity.

And I think it's just going to Tiana's point of like, no, yeah, traditional

governance models, one chair, right?

Traditional governance models this way or that way.

But we're gonna have to adapt, right?

To attract these younger people to be involved.

Right?

And maybe meetings, like I've sat on some organisations who didn't believe in Zoom

meetings and I'm like, you're not gonna get any younger people that have kids at

home that are, you know, gonna be able to travel across Saskatchewan monthly

for a meeting, like not time or find childcare even within the local community.

And so I think lots of the organisations that I'm involved in,

and I feel like I can say this word 'cause Jen said it first, but like

Metimes, I'm the shit disturber.

And like I go, I'm on the board as the shit disturber and people know that, but

it's not for, to make the organisation worse, it's just like, how do we make this

organisation, you know, that young people want to be involved in or can be involved.

And then another one is, I used to sit on a board that had four hour board meetings,

but let's be honest, an hour was actual business and three hours was bullshitting.

And so I said, if you want young people do the meeting from seven to eight,

if whoever chooses to stay to bullshit and have a drink after the meeting

can, but for those who have things to, you know, get done in the evening can.

And so just trying to make some of those little changes, I feel

like attract better leaders.

Well, and to further elaborate on the ship metaphor, you know,

when I walk out into the pasture that my horses are in, I either have to harrow

the field or I have to literally kick the shit to then help disperse it across.

It's not our fault.

These organisations have shit.

We're coming to these organisations disturbing that shit because

it then adds fertility.

Now Tiana, there, there's two things you've said today that

I, I, I want to come back to.

One was, are we using the language that young people, are we using the culture

that young people would understand?

But then you also, I think, tie that to models of leadership.

Are there new models of leadership or different models of leadership

that we should be entertaining?

Because I think implicit in both of those is a kind of status quo that

that many institutions are just using language and culture to create the

same leaders over and over and over.

So how do we short circuit that?

How do we get new language?

How do we get new models of leadership in so that we then get new blood,

new ideas and new shit disturbers?

Well, I think what RJ and, and Caitlyn were saying, we're giving examples

of, of how to kinda shake things up.

What I've, what I heard, the common denominator and all that

is that the people, the personal dynamics still play a big role.

Um, and the communication amongst your community still plays a big role.

And also coming in as the, know, the, the person that's going to rattle people's,

um, status quo, like how Caitlyn does when she comes into something and, and,

and rattles what people are thinking.

I guess some ways to get people we can use, um, maybe as an entry

point, try to find the same sort of language of like, Hey guys, what,

what, keeping you awake at night?

And you, what you might hear from different generations of, of people on,

on boards or, or within the communities, um, of, uh, of practise or agriculture

or aquaculture, et cetera, is that, sure, you might find some common, threads of

what's keeping people awake at night.

Um, but you might also hear of things that are a little bit different.

And when you start asking the questions of like, how do you see this changing?

You're not going to the same sort of leadership.

Maybe it's like leadership from a more horizontal, systemic type of

way of, of, looking at this because of it does shake up the status quo.

It tells us something like, well, the system's not quite function.

Uh, it's functional, but it's not quite optimal.

And so if we are asking each other amongst ourselves and being the people

who say like, Hey, I'm seeing this and it's causing alarm bells within me.

Are you guys seeing the same, are you seeing this, is this an alarm bell to you?

Or is this an innovation to you?

You don't have these types of conversations.

is allowing for one, the anticipation piece of it, and two, the long-term

thinking about who's, how do we deal with these things that are so close to us

right now and not feeling very far away.

I think there's just, um, the, the, the common denominator, again, being

the people, the personal, the the professional, um, and then going beyond,

um, maybe your board or your, your people, your direct people who were

considered to be leaders and start pushing not out, but maybe bringing in

and gathering that, um, sort of energy of, of the possibility of um, what

they're observing and trends that they're seeing and their possible solutions

and problem definitions, et cetera.

I just, I'm gonna maybe take the conversation a a bit sideways,

but, uh, as I was listening to you, Tiana, you raised, was a couple of

questions kind of percolating and one of them is around like, the future is

really, you know, back to r J's point.

It's really today we have to start working today for what we think

is gonna be here in 10 years.

all of the issues that have been raised to this podcast are quite daunting

and can be somewhat overwhelming.

And how do we navigate that, that sense of overwhelm, right?

Where it just all seems too big and too hard and keep people engaged and

at the table so that we can get really creative around our problem solving.

Do any, any of you, do you have any words of wisdom on that one?

I think for me, when, you know, we are feeling overwhelmed and

we're trying to solve this big problem, sometimes I'm like, I just got to sit

in my office and figure it out alone.

Right.

And that's probably the worst thing to do.

And it comes back to RJs, you know, comment about bringing people together.

You know, having those focus groups or committees or round tables and just

having discussion and knowing that not one person has to solve it by themselves.

Right.

But as a collective, coming together with the different skill sets, the different

perspectives, the different experiences, and really putting that all together to,

you know, I'm not the only one feeling overwhelmed if I'm overwhelmed about,

um, you know, where the cattle industry and markets are going, like others.

You know what I mean?

Like there's others who are probably also feeling the same.

And how do you bring those people together?

And I think as leaders within our respective industries, that's

one of our jobs, right, is to help bring those people together.

Well, and let me build on that and, and throw

you a, a a a fastball rj.

'cause I, I, I know you're perfectly capable of hitting it out of the park.

I absolutely align with your habit of foregrounding innovation

because I think it is a, an important rallying point for people.

And I think, Tiana, if I'm understanding you correctly, part of what we're

suggesting here is foregrounding crisis is something we need to do, it's something

we need to do in a way that allows for different solutions or, or different

innovations or different responses.

And I laughed when Jen said, you know, sometimes some of the crises

that we touch upon here in the future heard are really overwhelming.

And you're like, what the fuck?

Like, what am I supposed to do?

And I think that is why it's easy for us to focus on the innovation.

But to what extent do you feel comfortable for grounding crisis?

Do you think leaders should foreground crisis?

And if you really wanna go for the advanced level, what are the

risks of foregrounding crisis?

You know, the most obvious being conspiracy theory does tend to be a

part of the shit sandwiches that are part of the internet as we know it.

And I think that's part of the larger notion of foregrounded crisis.

I, I'm rambling, RJ.

Bail me out here.

Yeah, I think, um, so thing I want to draw on is, so

I, I plan our annual Fish farmer conferences, um, for the association

with the, with the committee.

There's, there's a, there's a lot of great minds behind it, but when folks are sort

of new to our conference, you know, this year we had our, our largest event ever.

We lured a lot of folks up from the US when they saw the programme before

they came, I was getting badgered.

It was like, why are your breaks 30 minutes?

And then it's like, why does the first day end at four 30?

And I was getting, I was getting like, like, why do you cram the

sessions into this part and have like an hour and a half for lunch?

And, um, and I, I don't know, it was, I was like, you, you just, you just gotta

come, you just gotta experience it.

Because like in the, me taking over the event, like I realised, you know,

we thought the event was supposedly like, cram these sessions in and say

these important things when really, like the magic is when you take a bunch

of people who work in this sector.

And I would say agriculture, you know, I, I, I did leave, you know, at 18 and,

and, and spent a decade in, in sort of the more science research space away from ag.

Um, I was so excited to come back to agriculture because like the

passion people have for this industry that are in it, like is it must

rank of all of the sectors, like very, very high in, in comparison.

So you, so you take a bunch of people who are passionate and you

put them in a room together with a beer in their hand, and they don't

talk about like their golf game.

They talk about like their, their farm.

And they compare things and they talk about, um, how do you solve that problem?

And I think that like, there doesn't, there, there, there's probably a

space to foreground crisis in a formal workshop, but I think it just like

naturally bubbles out when you have all these passionate people with a lot

of engineered social time together.

Um, and I, I, I'm gonna say, you know, uh, we, we have played the predictor

game, but I always do have to go back, you know, our, our Arlen and I, like

we say, like we make the best decision we can with the data we have now.

'cause when we start predicting things and guessing how things are gonna

go, um, there's, it, it, it, it's way more unlikely that we're gonna

get it right than if we just make the decisions that, that we have now.

But yeah, I really wanted to sort of draw to that, that social engineering aspect.

And I, I see that at events a lot too.

Like, we always think it needs a formal agenda, but it's like the, the magic

is what happens outside of the agenda.

Um, and that's just why encouraging future leaders, current leaders

like to to to leave their operations and spend time together is, is, is

where some of the magic happens too.

Well, and, and that's a great answer and, and I'll, frame it

as to foreground the social dynamics to foreground the social needs.

Tiana please.

Well, I was just going to hit the nail on the head with you.

Hit the nail on the head actually, sorry, rj, this idea

of prediction and, and whatnot.

And, um, that's what I was trying to get at before was like when you

did forecasting, you were pace, placing your bets on past data,

and then trying to extend it out.

But the conditions under which that past data, um, existed, no longer exists today.

the idea of prediction, um, is kind of, well, you might get, you

might get lucky, uh, but if you're exploring other possibilities, I think

you're in a, in a much better place.

And again, this idea of going back to the community, um, and how people are

seeing these problems and how they might be, um, defining them and then providing

solutions to them is another form of ex exploration for, um, for everybody of

the, the futures they could create, um, with applying the solutions in their

context or might need to take those solutions in one context and say, okay,

what are my, are my, um, conditions in my, in my case, um, that might need

to be tweaked or, or what have you.

So I think some ways you're doing a lot of orientation around the possibilities.

Um, and I think you are in doing that, you help and up your

anticipation muscle, if you will.

and then through anticipation, you start thinking like the

what ifs and then the what next.

And I think those are, um, a very interesting way to, to think and

to communicate with people as well.

let me use that then.

A a construct a question, you know, part of what RJ I think anecdotally

but accurately described was too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to

putting on an event in the agricultural sector in that someone has to do the

work in RJs case and everyone has 2 cents as to how that should happen.

Caitlin, I, I'm assuming you've also kind of experienced this, so

I want to take Tiana's provocation there and translate it into the

actual kind logistics of ag events.

Is it tenable to have an agenda for an A GM or a meeting in which all

of it is uncertain in which rather than saying, here's the presentations

and what you're gonna get, it's, here's the questions we're gonna

address and there's no answers.

Caitlin, would you be able to pull that off?

Is that viable?

How, how could you, on the

Yep.

ag, acknowledge the uncertainty that we're all experiencing?

Well, at the same time, people want to go to an event that is very

certain, that has times, that has specific breaks and specific topics.

How, how do we balance these tension?

Yeah, I think, you know, I, I run a few AGMs every year and

you know, there's some that are still very back in the same model.

There's one that we've actually, like, we do five, 10 minutes get what we absolutely

need to get done for, you know, law.

And then the rest is literally just, we ask the crowd questions, right?

And we do a whole feedback table.

But one of my favourite AGMs that I organise is, um, for an

organisation that we, so it's the Western Canadian Wheat Growers.

We used to host it in, um, Western Canada.

Nobody would come in February because nobody wants to be in

Winnipeg or Regina in February.

So then we were doing, so then, um, two years ago I was chair of the

committee and we went to Mexico.

We went to Mexico for the week.

We had 140 of our members.

And I mean, in Regina before I think we had 20 to 30 members, we

had 140 farmers join us in Mexico.

And you know what I loved about this?

A GM is you spent all week together and the best conversations and the

best solutions happened around the pool bar, um, you know, in the evenings.

And it was, you know, as board members, when we came back and had

our board meeting, we had so much great feedback, um, and comments

and thoughts from our members that we were able to compile it all.

And it really has led us in the last two years.

And so this year we're going back to the Dominican.

We're going to the Dominican.

We have already a hundred people members registered.

And I think, you know, did we get some pushback?

Absolutely.

But it's one third cheaper than hosting an event in Canada.

I'm just gonna say that it's a lot cheaper going there.

'cause all your food and drinks are covered.

Um, and it really, when we host a one day a GM, people come in and come

out and sometimes RJ I know we've, I've created social hours, but people

sometimes don't stay 'cause they wanna get back to their farm, right?

And so when you lock them in an all-inclusive resort for

a week, they have no choice.

They can't go back to the farm.

in the West now.

They can't, they're stuck.

Um, so yeah, I guess for me, Jesse, that's one of the events that I'm most

proud about because we literally lock them into an all-inclusive for a week.

And we make like there is some format, like it's not just come for a week and

just do whatever you, well, I guess you could, but there is, you know, two

mornings of speakers and we've got some, you know, scheduled stuff in there.

But the best stuff happens in the evenings and pool bar.

So.

If, if I can add onto that too.

One thing I've noticed, which is really funny, so we had this event

with these 30 young people, and I hate to do that in my day, but, um,

when I, if my employer sent me to an event, I would go to everything, right?

It's just like, it wasn't even up for debate, but I noticed with a lot of the

young folks at this event, when you gave them the exact agenda down to like, this

is when we're at a brewery for dinner.

This is where we're axe throwing.

You know, the, this is when we're in the hotel.

Like they all like, talked about what they're gonna go to or not as if it

was like, oh, I'm not gonna do the axe throwing or something like that.

Like, it was very bizarre for me.

'cause I was like, this isn't like a sign up for each session thing.

This is like, you're here and this is, this is a summer camp.

We're doing everything.

But it was definitely back to, you know, what, what Tiana was saying about,

um, a a different generational look at leadership or these sorts of things.

So I, I think that was, that was a learning for me to, to, to

maybe not communicate the agenda quite so widely so that people

can just come along for the ride.

Like, uh, like what Kaylyn was saying.

Or creating that space.

Like I just hosted sas, young Farmers Board and like, again, when I, I used

to be on that board, um, it's full circle for me now, leading the group.

But like, again, like we were, if we had a few day board meetings, like we

would eat breakfast together, we would do the board meeting all day together.

We would eat supper together, we would do an evening activity.

And now this generation, and I know I'm like not that far removed, but still, like

they've asked for, like, they want to go start their morning by themselves, right?

To be in the, and, and it's just adapt.

So now I don't plan a breakfast, right?

Everybody's on their own for breakfast and you know, the evening activity

was supper and then some wanted to go back to their room and some

wanted to go for a walk, right?

And it was almost like creating space in the agenda where when I was on the

board, I'm like, keep me busy from 7:00 AM till 11:00 PM and like, but now it's,

you know, creating that space and um, allowing for some of that, you know, more

maybe quiet or mindful, like, but there also needs to be a balance because I

also think there has to be some, I don't wanna say forced, but, um, you know,

like, because you don't want, like, that social interaction is also so important.

So where do you find the balance of creating them, the space that they need,

but also making them do, you know, get to know each other, kind of, not just

within the formal meeting portion.

Well, and, and even though

okay.

was kind of presented as a joke, I think there's something

quite brilliant at the idea of having participants be captive, right?

Of having them be in a space and time where they are kind

of compelled to be together.

Because the other element that we're describing here that I think

is important to name is the genuine scarcity of attention that contemporary

leaders have to deal with, right?

It's the scarcity of attention of your members.

It's the scarcity of attention of the general public.

I mean, so much of what a leader has to do in our current

moment is compete for attention.

When to Caitlyn's point, a lot of people just want to tune out.

They just wanna disassociate, they just want retreat.

So I'm curious, and, and Tiana, I'm gonna throw to you, because I think this does

come back to our symptom of a lack of long-term thinking, even a lack of vision.

How do we, outside of captivity, outside of capturing people in like an escape

room or something, do we as leaders, as people who want to foster foresight

and participatory foresight, how do we deal with this attention issue?

How do we deal with the larger attention deficit society that

we kind of find ourselves in?

Well, I honestly don't think it's one thing or another.

You know, we do talk about this idea of the, the attention deficit,

but then there's also that sense of wanting to, um, look internally.

Uh, you know, be more mindful.

There is this sense of individualism, but there's also that sense

of wanting to be together.

Um, it sounds to me actually that both RJ and Caitlyn have done, they've done

a lot of stress testing already of possible ways of working with people.

Um, and as the, the leadership is changing 'cause we're, we're

constantly in motion of, of change and change is changing us as well.

Um, I think what you're doing actually is that you've already come up with

some, yeah, you've stress tested how you interact with people and, the attention,

the attention deficit thing, I don't think you need to be louder or whatever.

Maybe you need to be more succinct, uh, concise.

Um, how do you, maybe ask them how they want to be spoken to?

Like, do we do this in a tweet format?

what's the, the thing that's, um, the biggest trend that we see happening today,

you know, like in 140 characters or less.

and, um, people love data.

You know, people really do respond to this type of, of, uh, key words or, or assem

assemblance of something succinct and, and concise, but that they can challenge.

Um, because we're also in this mode of, you know, AI is a bit of our,

how do I, how, how do I put it?

Um, politely is bit of the reg regurgitation machine

a little bit too, right?

So there's, there's challenges to that as well.

So I think this idea of just stress testing as you go along, the possibilities

of your interactions with people, um, and bringing them, acknowledging that they

all hold different ideas of the future and have different futures in themselves

and different possibilities that they see.

And so is there a format in which this can come out in, you know, sort of a,

a pattern or pa patchwork type of way that can be, um, not as the answer, um,

but multitude of answers and also, um, opportunities, uh, for people to, through,

because I agree, we, we kind of bring our paths with us and say, oh, you know, back

in my day, or I was part of a, a board and now, you know, it's come full circle.

It's like, wow, you've gone through a period of whole complete stress testing

and apply what you think is going to work.

But also this idea of participation is huge.

You need to not assume, I think we spoke about assumptions at

the beginning of this podcast.

Not assume, um, that, or don't even assume that you should be the one responding.

And bring, uh, bring others into the, into the network of, um, possibility.

Now, Jen, I don't know why I don't know why the phrase stress

testing associates in my mind with shit sandwich, it, it did kind of make me want

to pivot and throw to you and say, I, I think both RJ and Caitlin have offered

some, some really smart interventions or design concepts for events.

suspect you've had to suffer through a lot of really bad events and,

and boring moments within events.

And do you have any insights on how they could be done better or to, to

Anna's point, how they could be more open or accommodating to the types

of experiences and participation?

I think we'd all like to see.

Mexico, everybody should just head to Mexico.

It's the take home message I heard.

Um, I think it's, I think it's really, I'm gonna say first hats off, Caitlin,

because I think that is a bold move.

I have that idea up the flag pole with other organisations and the fear

associated with the no answer, right?

Like they say no because they're afraid of the pushback.

They're afraid of the optics of taking the holiday.

Right?

and so, I don't know if I'm gonna answer your question, Jesse, but I

think that one of the things that I struggle with when planning events or

when trying to do different with groups is this navigation of the fear response.

which is often what is root behind the no answer.

and so comfortably moving people into a bit of a unknown space, like let's

just try and see what happens, right?

Um, that, that I find is sometimes the biggest, the biggest hurdle.

Ask for forgiveness after.

Right.

Yeah.

What's the worst that could happen?

It'll be great.

Don't worry about it.

Well, and at the risk of opening Pandora's Box, why

don't we end on the topic of fear?

I started this episode on the topic of crisis, which does

seem to be the relevant context.

And I think Jen quite rightly points out that often the biggest obstacle

to new leadership, to new ways of thinking about the future, new event

configurations, is the fear of the unknown, the fear of something different,

the fear of something going wrong.

So I'm curious to hear how you guys deal with fear or the role

that fear needs to play or not play in how we think of leadership.

Jen, you wanted to start.

Oh no, I, I, um, I didn't wanna start, I was just saying that sometimes

it's the fear of failure, right?

which could be coupled with that fear of backwash.

But I'm more curious to see what the panellists have to say.

I, I think I'll, I'll cut in here if I could.

um, I've been having some very, um, in let's call them intriguing

discussions with fellow fish farmers and specifically business owners Canada.

Um, because what, what the last five years have shown, um, at least in

aquaculture, but, you know, I, I start to hear this a little more, um, and, and,

and maybe Caitlin will back me up or, or tell me this is just a fish problem.

But, um, we're, we're sort of at a strange precipice where the old ways

aren't necessarily working anymore.

And I think folks are starting to realise that doing things the way

we've always done them is actually riskier than trying something new.

say that was the case three or four years ago, but I, I feel like, um,

it, it is, it is absolutely what we're seeing now, and I think it's a bit of

a, more of a sociological trend that I see because there are lots of places

that have been trying to do things the way they've always been doing them.

And then there are the innovators and, and people pushing out there.

And we're starting to see, um, those people that have been doing

it the way they always have done it, running into some of these problems

associated with specifically change or some of these larger supply

chain energy, um, input cost issues.

Um, and so I I, the, the optimism in me says that, um, I, I think that that's

just a, something we need to continue reinforcing that the, the doing that doing

nothing is, is, is the riskiest choice.

And, and I, and I would love to, I'm sure you folks are always better at

interpreting what I say and making it sound, sound a bit smarter.

I'm sure there's some framework for that, but that's something I,

a message I would love to leave.

Brilliant.

I would agree with you, rj.

I think lots of organisations that I work with are at that point where they have

fear if they don't change because they don't have the new director stepping up,

they don't have the new members joining.

They don't, you know, they're not seeing, and they're at a point where we either

need to make a change or the fear of this organisation is going to merge, collapse,

have no funding, have no members.

Right.

And so I would agree with you on that.

Um, and I had one more thought and it just, um, it left somewhere

this morning, but I, if I have it, I'll jump back in there.

So.

Please do Tiana.

Yeah, I think that idea of the status quo, um, it may be more

risky, is, um, a provocation to look at, to embrace uncertainty.

Um, it's an invitation to embrace the uncertainty.

Um, and that sounds like a very strange thing to, to say, but I

am hearing so far is that both Caitlin and RJ have been doing that.

Um, you know, they, they've taken the, tried to break up the status

quo, whether that's AGMs or, or how they communicate with people

or what they do in their agendas.

You're, you're breaking the mould um, there's, I don't think

there's anything wrong with that.

I think some very nice shapes come out of, uh, breaking the mould the

idea of, um, let's see what happens.

You can take if you want.

'cause there was also this idea of risk adverse, um, aversion.

Risk aversion is like, well, what would happen, what would be the

first order of consequence to this?

What would be the second order of this?

And try to map it out for yourself a little bit.

What's the worst that can happen even to that?

Okay, if it's going to be a no, what's the worst that's going to happen?

And can I loop back and try to actually make this seem like the other

person's idea in the first place?

You know?

Um, so I think there's a way of, um, slowing down, um, taking a, taking a

beat, uh, in the face of fear and, you know, tapping in to those resources

that you already have about, okay, the worst thing that's gonna happen?

And think about it.

take, take the time to think about it and, and, and map it out for yourself.

Um, because you, you might be surprised with, uh, what you come

up with rather than hand ringing.

I think it's a way to get out of hand ringing.

Maybe Jesse, if I could just quickly jump in here and talking

about kind of fear and leadership.

My, my thought has come back to me, but I feel like, and we haven't said this

word all call, but post COVID, OVID, um, we were all very, I feel like lots

of people were trying to protect their ground and protect their organisations

and it was very, like, I felt like, um, we lost kind of the collaboration

that agriculture is known for, right?

But in the last probably year or two, I've seen some of that drop.

And I think we've seen more collaboration.

And I think if we really, truly want to see change, um, and have

new leaders, like collaboration is what this industry is known for.

And we have to make sure that that's priority, right?

And so it's not the fish industry versus the canola industry, right?

But it's like, how do we both win, right?

How do we all win?

And I think that's just so important.

'cause I know lots of, um, you know, young farmers are like,

I don't want that rhetoric that it's, um, this or that, right?

Why can't it be both, right?

Why can't we come together and work together?

And I think that's, um, something that we just as leaders sometimes need to also

leave our egos at the door and walk in and say, you know, we have to make the,

what's best for this industry, right?

And not what's best for me, or even what's best for my, you know, canola.

But it's what's going to be best for the agriculture industry as a whole.

Right on.

And I, I, I need to emphasise, uh, just how brilliant all of you

have been in today's conversation.

And, and I say this partly because it's part, some of the simplest things have

turned out to be the most brilliant, the Dominican Republic, Mexico example,

uh, is one in particular, right?

In, in hindsight it's like, oh yeah, that makes total sense.

But it's the fact that you are shifting the venue, When you keep the rats

running in the same maze, they are not gonna find a new way to get the

cheese, but you take them outta the maze and all of a sudden they're gonna

start talking about different ways in which they could enjoy the cheese.

I think that's part of what we've done today.

That's part of what the future herd tries to do in that it tries to get

people outside of the usual conversations and imagine new possibilities.

And as always, we end an episode where I've got a million more

things I wanna ask about.

And Caitlin, I think you summed it up perfectly in that collaboration a subject

I think we should come back to today.

We talked about leadership.

am proposing that as a group, we get back together at some point in

a mutually agreeable future and dig deeper into the issue of collaboration.

'cause I think to Tiana's repeated point, we're thinking about collaboration in

an old, dated, obsolete way and that you guys are stress testing new types

of collaboration that we should dig deeper into, into a future episode.

And, and I hope you guys are amenable to that.

Any final words?

I just wanna say thank you again.

I think I've learned a lot from Caitlin and rj, and it was a real

pleasure to, to meet you both.

you've certainly made my mind, uh, stretch my ideas around collaboration

and also meetings in a, in a way that, um, that's super, that's super helpful

and I'm also glad to hear that there's so much optimism as well, for, for what

comes next because, um, the headlines, uh, you're the antidote, both of you to the

headlines that I'm reading, so thank you.

I would just echo that and say it's great to connect with

people who have similar mindsets.

Um, and it's good to know that you're not alone, right?

And there's other people who are, you know, trying to maybe solve some of

these big crisis or issues or problems.

So yeah, great conversation.

And yeah, Jesse, collaboration could be probably a whole other episode.

Yeah.

And Jesse, we, we, I mean, I guess to speak on my behalf and maybe

all of us, we, we would be nowhere with these answers, without your

enthusiastic questions and responses.

So thank you for, for bringing us together.

Um, and even, even today, like even in the agriculture space, I feel like

a very Ontario centric, we, we think we're being collaborative in our own

way 'cause it's different sectors.

But today showed, showed me there's a, there's a bigger country,

there's a bigger world out there.

I'm really honoured to, to be here today, um, with some non Ontario folks too.

So thank you.

Right on.

And thank you Jen, uh, uh, for mobilising organising and really

making this particular episode happen.

Uh, do you have any final words other than, uh, take off a.

No, I just, I really enjoyed today's discussion and it was just

so lovely to see three people who I always enjoy having conversations

with come together in one space.

So it was a real treat for me.

Thank you.

Thank you all.