Season 7 Episode #169

In this episode of Hey, Boomer, host Wendy Green delves into the deeply fascinating and often turbulent world of family dynamics and historical conflicts with acclaimed author Dean King, known for his work on "The Feud, The Hatfields & McCoys, The True Story." Exploring the lessons from the infamous feud, Wendy and Dean provide a thought-provoking discussion that sheds light on the enduring relevance of history in understanding contemporary conflicts and relationships.

Guest Bio

Dean King is a well-known historian and expert on the infamous Hatfield McCoy feud. He has studied the feud extensively, and believes that it was sparked by multiple factors, including the politics of the Civil War and a love affair.

Through his research and expertise, he has shed light on the emotional and historical complexities of the feud that continues to captivate audiences.

Dean is an award-winning author of 10 non-fiction books.

Episode Overview:

Wendy and Dean delve into the intricacies of the Hatfields & McCoys feud, a conflict that spanned generations and captured the public's imagination due to its sensational nature. They highlight the complexities of family ties, political influences, and personal vendettas that fueled the rivalry, examining the root causes and pivotal moments that shaped the feud. The episode unravesl the evolution of the conflict, exploring how the feud transitioned from violent clashes to economic competition, and the enduring impact it had on the surrounding communities.

Episode Takeaways

Dean King offers invaluable insights into the legacy of the Hatfields and McCoys feud, emphasizing the lasting repercussions of bitterness and animosity if left unchecked across generations. He also underscores the importance of seeking common ground and practicing generosity in resolving conflicts, drawing essential lessons from history that resonate in today's world.

1. Understand the origins and complexities of the Hatfields & McCoys feud.

2. Recognize the influence of the feud on modern-day conflicts.

3. Explore lessons from history that can be applied to resolving current disputes.

Call to Action:

Connect with Dean King:

Website: https://deanhking.com/

Email: deanhking@gmail.com

Join the conversation and share your thoughts about family feuds with us on social media using #HeyBoomerPodcast.

Join the Boomer Believers for access to one-on-one Zoom discussions with a guest. On June 30 at 6:00pm ET our guest will be Dean King.

Visit https://buymeacoffee.com/heyboomer0413 to sign up. There is not obligation; you can cancel your membership at any time.

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Well, hello, and welcome to Hey Boomer. My name is Wendy Greene, and I am your host for Hey Boomer. And at Hey Boomer, we are changing the conversation about getting older. Rather than seeing it as declining, We see it as the opening of a potentially exciting new and vibrant chapter, a time for exploration, Self discovery and learning, and happy Martin Luther King Junior day. How interesting that our discussion of a historical event and its impact on us falls on a day when we remember other historical events that also had enormous impact on our society. So today, we're continuing on our theme of family dynamics. And the relationships today we are talking about with Dean King, the author of The Feud, The Hatfields and McCoys, The True Story. Dean has done research, and the story of the feud is spelled out in detail.

He had to include several family trees within the book so the reader could keep up with the family members who were still living and which family members had been killed during the feud. It also is not as simple as being a Hatfield or McCoy. Members of the families intermarried, which complicated the animosities even more. The Feud is a story of families, and revenge, and politics, and brutality. And we'll spend some time with Dean learning about the story, things like what started the feud, how long did it last, What were some of the mitigating factors that kept it going? How did it impact not only the families but the American society? And then we'll dissect some of the lessons that could be learned from these events, because Isn't it always best to learn from history rather than repeat it? Before we do, get ready to embark on an incredible journey with us by becoming a Boomer believer, And welcome to our newest Boomer believer, doctor Barbara Kaufman. What's in store for you as a Boomer believer? Well, you will be able to join a monthly Zoom meeting with incredible Hey Boomer guests, and this month, it's going to be Dean King. You'll be able to join the monthly Boomer banter sessions where we find friendship, insights, learning, have great times. You'll get to sport your Hey Boomer pride with a special edition ball cap.

You'll get a shout out on the podcast to celebrate you as a new member like I just did for Barbara Kaufman, and you'll get special birthday recognition because you deserve it. So mark your calendars for the inaugural Boomer Believer event on January 30th at 6 PM EST, where we'll get to talk and ask questions and learn from Dean King about the Hatfields and McCoys. Join us as a Boomer believer for just $25 a month, and you can sign up for this first one if you wanna talk to Dean. And if you decide you don't want to continue, there is no obligation. So don't miss out on this unique opportunity to connect, engage, and learn with and support the Heyboomer community. Alright. You ready to meet Dean? Hi, Dean.

Hi, Wendy.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

It's great great to be here. Love to talk about history.

I know. I'm excited about what we're gonna talk about. Let me do a brief introduction, and then we'll jump right in. So Dean King is an award winning author of 10 nonfiction books. Dean relishes the adventure involved in making history come to life while at the same time diligently searching out the truth and turning up new historical detail. While researching his national bestseller skeletons on the Sahara, He crossed the Sahara on camels and in Land Rovers. He trekked the Long March Trail in the snowy mountains of Western from China while researching Unbound and was shot at in Appalachia while writing The Feud. For his most recent book, Guardians of the Valley, Dean traveled to John Muir's boyhood homes in Dunbar, Scotland and rural Wisconsin and spent months roaming Yosemite National Park and the Sierra Nevada.

That Sounds amazing, Dean. I would have loved to be out there in

the

assembly and learning all that, But I wanna jump right in. Okay? You ready?

Ready to go.

Alright. Chapter 2 starts by defining what a feud is. You write, a blood feud in the vein of the Hatfields versus the McCoys or the Montagues against the Capulets of Shakespeare fame is essentially a state of warfare between 2 families. Feuds do not always have neat beginnings and endings, And such was the case in the Hatfield and McCoid feud. It seems there were potentially 3 starting points of the feud, politics, theft Theft and love. Would you talk about those?

Yeah. You know, Feuds can take many different forms and have many different factors, and, I always like to say they're not logical, You know, they're they're inherently emotional. And, in this case, you know, there there there there's been historical debate about what Started the Hatfield McCoy feud when it started. And and for me, as I studied it, I saw, several events, And I like to pro pride myself as being the master of the 1 match fire. I learned it in Boy Scouts. I can light a campfire with 1 match, but But I think this fire that, you know, the metaphorical fire of the feud was lit from 3 different spots. You can still do it with 1 match, but you don't just light 1 spot. And and the so there was the the the the politics of civil war that that was a big factor, and and then there was A love affair that that brought the 2 families, made them them clash, you know, kind of a matter of honor.

And then there was, There was shooting and and murder that that also, was part of it. So,

that was political too. Right? A lot of the shooting and murder.

Sure. And and and and the and the theft was an argument over a a hog, which seems trivial, but, you know, if we get into it a little bit, you'll see that A hog was in a very important thing, you know, at that place at that time. And so, the the the matter of the ownership of this particular hog, became, another flashpoint.

So you talk a lot about the 2 patriarchs, Devil Anse Hatfield and Randall McCoy. Can you kinda go through their relationship? Because they started, I think, as friends. Right?

Yeah. And one of the, fascinating aspects of this feud, I think, is that in 18/48, we're talking about, the the Tug River Valley which, straddles the Westford now West Virginia, Kentucky border. At the time, it was Virginia and Kentucky, and then that part of Virginia was would secede from Virginia during the civil war and become West Virginia. But so the Hatfields and McCoys lived peacefully together in the Tug River Valley, during the first half of the 19th century. They were so close, they intermarried, they did business together, And they actually petitioned the government of Virginia and said, hey. Look. This is this this is 1 community here in the Tug River Valley, and you've got a state line through here that's dividing us. Really, you should make the whole Tug River Valley part of Virginia.

And Hatfields and McCoys both signed this petition, and so, It it it never got passed. But if that petition had gotten passed, I I believe there never would have been a Hatfield McCoy feud.

Interesting.

Yeah. But and and and then I I think that speaks then to the friendship of of Devil Anse Hatfield and Randall McCoy. I mean, these families were inherently Close knit. They came from the, you know, similar places. They understood each other. The when the war the civil war broke out, Because the state line went right through there, it would it would start to complicate things. It's funny, you know, when you get Back from history, you like to have everything black and white and work really well. Nothing works well in the field.

No explanation is clean and simple because You you had the the the state lines. It didn't separate the McCoys on the union side and the Hatfields on the, Confederate side. All the Hatfields and McCoys on the Kentucky side, which was neutral for the 1st year, eventually fought for the union. All the, Hackens and McCoys on the confederate on the West Virginia side the Virginia side, even though it would secede and become West Virginia part of the union, they stayed with the south except for Randall McCoy who grew up in West Virginia, but lived on the Kentucky side. And, he fought for the confederacy with Devil Anse Hatfield. And so, you know, these guys, fall on the same side in the war and ran in the in the same group. So, you know, again, feuds are irrational and they're emotional, and and it's often as People probably know, when families when things fall apart on families, it can be extra heated because they're families And because they're close in, you know, and have deep seated, animosity potentially, and and I think that's what sort of, exploded here was was that these these families were so close. They even raided each other during the civil war, and, and and it created great, passion and anger.

So if they were so close, what happened? And if they fought on the same side, what happened?

Randall fought on the same side as with Devil Anse, but one of his brothers fought for the union, And the the, the Hatfields came across into Kentucky, at the end of the war and killed that brother, Herman McCoy. And and so, you know, that that, of course, would Create some issues for for Randall, though nothing happened immediately, and that's part of why there's questions as to was that the beginning of the feud? Well, there there wasn't an an immediate follow-up to that, and and also brings me back to my sort of 3 3 flame beginnings of a fire. That was 1. But, also typical with feuds is there's not necessarily an immediate reaction. Frequently, what will happen is that An event will take place, maybe a family's honor is affected, and it will be the sons, or the sons and daughters of that family who will later attack back to try to regain their honor, and so it may take years for them to grow up. And and this feud took place over a period from the civil war to 18/90 and a little beyond, but there was a major event in 18/90 that, effectively, ended the feud. But, you know, so you had several generations affected, different different many different reasons for being a part of it or not. And today today, you have you have a similar effect.

You still have some animosity there, but you have Hatfields and McCoys who are marrying now as they married back then during the feud because they were big families, and they had, different different feelings and and and goals, and, so it's very complex.

But there was also big flashpoints at at the election gatherings. Can you talk about what brought those on?

Yes. And and I I wanna once mention one thing before we move on, apropos of that last question, was That, one thing I discovered that had been unmet, you know, in my in my research was that, Randall McCoy's son, Jim, worked in Devil Anse's moonshining operation Mhmm. Operation Mhmm. And, and told a newspaper reporter, a New York newspaper reporter that back in the day, It got run-in a big, section of the newspaper, but then had been basically lost to history. So, again, that complexity here here, you know, For your question, here's a son that was working, you know, one of Randall's sons working for Delance, and and and then you have a series of events. So, you know, West Virginia, this part of Kentucky are very hilly, very remote, beautiful places, but, you you know, a lot of verticality, Hard hardscrabble land, hard to work, there's there's cold there, there's, and and people were scratching a living out of farming and, hunting, but, so it was election day that brought them out of the mountains from their from their pretty much full time work to to do pretty much everything else, which was to, you know, to socialize, to court, to elect officials and and to celebrate. Also, when the celebrate celebration carried on too long, there was drunkenness, there was fighting, And so you got the full gamut of of human activity right there in one day.

And they would cross over. Right? So, like, the election might have been in Kentucky, but the Hatfields from West Virginia would still come over for that election day. Isn't that right?

Yeah. And there again, you know, it really was kind of 1 big community. There was Devil Ants Hatfield on the West Virginia side, And there was preacher Ants Hatfield on the Kentucky side. He had Ken there right where the elections took place, so they wanted to visit. You know, it was natural. Some would say that the Hatfields came over to intimidate the McCoys at times and to that they couldn't vote in Kentucky to influence the vote, But as the animosity heated up, but, you know, in one case, you had Devil Anse's, son, Johnsy, who saw 1 of Randall McCoy's daughters who who he thought was, quite attractive, and and they kinda snuck off and and started, an affair, and that would be one of the flashpoints of the feud. He took her back to to West Virginia. Randall was incensed that, his daughter was there, unmarried, living in the house with with, Randall Hatfield, Randall and his wife, vicey Hatfield.

And so, you know, that that was 1 in incident. A little later, a couple years later, there was, an argument over an unpaid debt of 3 McCoy sons who were angry over, what had happened with their sister with John c Hatfield, Then picked a fight with, Elias, Hatfield. Elias's brother, a a civil war hero, stepped up. Ellison stepped in, sort of took up the fight for him, and ended up fighting the 3 McCoy boys who stabbed him multiple times and eventually shot him. I can can tell you the rest of that tale, but that's just, you know, one of the another of the flash points there that happened on an election day.

Yeah. Yeah. It was brutal. And it sounded to me from my reading of it that the the moonshine had an awful lot to do with how the tempers got out of control and yeah. That's what we'll

do. Yeah.

And then what happened to those McCoy brothers was pretty brutal. So that takes me to this next question, though, where the book does seem to portray the revenge killings by the Hatfields to be much more brutal and grievous than the McCoys. Hence, the killing of the McCoy brothers and the ambush on Randall's family and the killing of his daughter and son and the beating of his wife. Is that true? And if If that's true, where was the law in all of this?

Yeah. I think the the the incident where the the McCoys, stabbed Ellison Hatfield so many times was, more the anomaly. I mean, that that that that, of course, was a a violent awful event, but, the the Hatfields generally had the upper hand. They had a little more wealth and a little more firepower. Again, where we'd like to we would love for the lines to be very cleanly drawn. Devil Anse Hatfield, had a timber operation, and he had McCoys working for him. And so sometimes McCoy McCoys were doing his biting in which, you know, would would make, the McCoys very upset and angry about that that their own, Family members were on the other side, but, this was a a a very remote area. It still is very remote, but back in in that day, there weren't There weren't state troopers who would come would come in.

They had justices of the peace who were elected. You know, pre preacher Anse Hatfield was, one of those justices of the piece on the Kentucky side. There was a a an a Hatfield who was justice of the peace on the West Virginia side. So you can see these 2 families have a lot of of power in the in the area. They also had, political power. They could they could swing the polls for a governor. So no governor's gonna send somebody down there to to fight against his people even if they're doing maybe something bad, in in Kentucky. They're not gonna send, a law enforcement down there to try to rectify that situation because it's a no win situation for them.

There there just wasn't, you know, Because it was so remote, there there wasn't any law enforcement. So these people, you you know, they were frontiersmen and women, and they they grew up there. They were self reliant. They knew how to stick up for themselves. They had very strong feelings, and they were courageous and weren't weren't afraid to defend themselves.

So why do you think this got picked up by, like, news in New York and became like a national story, And and eventually, the bounty hunters came in.

Yeah. Well, you know, it it was even an international story. At the same time, during this period, you had Jack the Ripper, committing his murders in London, and you'll see some international papers where there's a Jack the Ripper headline and a Hatfield McCoy headline, And I think it played well to the international press who could go that's what an American is. You know, these hill people living there were very distinctive and, You know, making moonshine shooting, it was easy easy to characterize them that way. Unfair, of course. The New York media did nothing to mitigate that. They went in there and played that up because it it made big headlines. It it brought in readers.

And really, you know, a watershed moment was When the Hatfields decided, the the McCoys Randall McCoys had gone to a a a cousin of his and, a guy named Perry Kline who was an attorney in Pikeville, Kentucky and told him what was going on. And Perry Klein had had an altercation with Devil Anse Hatfield already over some property that he, that he had inherited in his family, the Devil Anse man had managed to take away. So he was very prone to sticking up for the McCoys into fighting for them. And the Hatfields thought, boy, they're gonna bring the law down on us. This is gonna be a problem. We need to end this, feud right now. Let's go get Randall. And so they sent a group over on New Year's Day in in 8, 18/90 and attacked the house, burned it in in during the shooting, killed, Alaffair, one of Randall and and Sally McCoy's daughters, and and that made big headlines.

You know, before it was men shooting at each other, it wasn't that uncommon in the day. You had the wild west going on and and shootouts and feuds in in the Appalachian, some more bloody than this one. But, once an innocent young woman was killed, it became, sort of a different beast. The New York City, papers sent reporters in there, and they were very talented reporters. They they went in there and And they really reported deeply and and and produced some of our best raw material, yet it was also stigmatized the families in the area. The people in West Virginia and Kentucky are rightly still angry about the condescending nature of some of these reports, Yet it is some of the most accurate reporting in terms of the action that we have.

I want to, gonna take us into the present, but I want to do a little Quick word from our sponsor, Road Scholar, who offers amazing travel experiences for boomers and beyond as well as grandparent and grandchild trips, which I have been on a few. Altogether, I've been on 4 Rhodes Scholar trips in the past 2 years, and each one has been exceptional. Rhodes Scholar has trips to all 50 states and over 100 countries, and you can find them at road, roadscholar.org/heyboomer. Here it is. Road, r o a d, scholar, dot org / heyboomer. So please go and support our sponsor, and love your travel with Road Scholar. Okay. So I wanna bring us now a little bit more into the present, Dean.

So the feud officially, not officially, unofficially, ended around 18/90 with a hanging. Is that right?

That's correct.

Can you tell us about that?

Yeah. You know, at that time, you gotta remember, this is the the Reconstruction has ended in the south after the civil war. You have it's the age of industrialization. You have the railroads connecting the nation, And then all of a sudden, you you have, northeasterners who are very interested in the energy assets in West Virginia and Kentucky, the coal. And you have locals who are also interested in making money off off the coal. And so, The the northeastern industrialists are coming in, buying up the land, before a lot of the the locals know its true value, unfairly. And this is still, you know, an issue that's with us today. But, locals also knew that these guys weren't gonna be able to come in and extract that cold Cole, if they if they believed that it was a lawless place, that murder was going on, and that there was havoc and chaos.

And so they wanted to end the feud. And so because of there had been raids back and forth across the West Virginia Kentucky line. Perry Klein had gone and gotten a Kentucky governor to come and get involved. The West Virginia governor had gotten involved. They they both sent militias down to the area, Nearly had a border war between 2, you know, states that were on opposite sides in the civil war, and so could have Potentially reignite the civil war right there. You know, there there there were there there were political reasons for this not being straightened out, and so, you would have a posse go over a Kentucky posse came over into West Virginia and raided and killed somebody and, you know, back and forth. And so it it was it was basically a mess, but and and so, really, there was arrests of some Hatfields. One of them, was made a sacrificial lamb.

He was convicted of the of the killing of Alaffair in that, house raid, and and he you know, they they put up gallows. There were supposed to be no more public hangs at this time. You know, those There's a were a thing in the past supposedly, so they built a fence around it low enough that you could see from the hills above to see. They made a big spectacle for the media to come, and everybody came to see it to show that the Hatfield McCoy feud is ending, but but they were still scared that Devil Ants might ride in with his with his posse and and, rescue, the the guy who was was to be hung. And so, There was a lot of law enforcement and militia in Pikeville at the time, but so that was, he did not do that. There was the the the hanging and that that, pretty much ended the feud, though, you know, there there would still be tit for tat And the feelings never went away, and that has sort of continued on to this day.

Well and you've mentioned that, Continuing on to this day, there is actually a reality show out now, right, called the Hatfields and McCoys Forever Feuding?

That's right. The the real Hatfields and McCoys forever feud.

Are they still feuding?

They are in a different way. You know, it's it's, more economic this today, Whereas it was it's very male driven back then. You have women who are are big players in the the, you know, sort of hostilities now, And and so, you know, they're McCoys who are, you know, in in the 1st season of of this, This follow doc, we call it, where you're following real people. It it is Courtney McCoy setting up a restaurant in hospitality, site, to to attract ATV riders who ride on the Hatfield McCoy trails. Tourism's very big there now, but she she's actually in Logan, West Virginia, which is traditionally Hatfield country and very close to where, a big group of Hatfields who also cater to the ATV trails are. And so, you know, it it is it has set up some some ill feelings. They're they're still making, spirits. They're starting, hospitality, another hotel.

The the Hatfields are starting a hotel, and and you've so you have have these bitter feelings. These are, these are ambitious, smart people. They're in this incredible environment, and it's actually very fun to see them sorta try to with each other.

That's what they're doing now. There's no shootings now. They're just trying to outmaneuver so that they can run each other out of business.

Pretty much. Yeah. They're still they're still heavily armed, but they're still intermarrying. You know? In the 1st season, there's a marriage between the Hatfield and McCoy, and, and there's some bitterness over the fact that the wedding taste takes place at the McCoy's place and not the Hatfield site. And so, they still compete when they're out hunting. If you tune in to, the 2nd season, which will be out this spring on Fox Nation, you'll see that there's, competition on who can kill the biggest buck, and there's a bet. And so, you know, a lot of the things that you would have seen back in the day have not changed. They're still very rural.

They're they're still very much attached to the land. They're still very proud. They're still very armed. I should say that there was an official peace treaty that was signed, between the Hatfields and McCoys. So that's one thing that has changed.

Yeah. And your role in this in this ongoing series on Fox Nation, what is that?

I I'm actually a a producer and an on air Dorian. So, Fox Nation loves this history as do the Hatfields and McCoys, and and so, I appear on the show at certain times to sorta connect what's going on today to the the history that took place and to make parallels and and and and to compare it, which I think, makes a little different from a lot of sort of reality follow docs is that we're tying this into this tradition in history and, this family pride and and, really, these are salt of the earth American families. I think there's a lot to be learned, from from studying them, life.

Oh, yeah. So as a historian, Dean, you you work, you research to uncover the complete history of events, And it still feels like we don't always use that information to learn from We still have some of the same emotional traits that got us into trouble in the 1st place. You know? You have the the love and the hate side of things, the revenge, the ambition, Power, greed. So why do you think it's important to study history?

Yeah. You know, those those long term, Those those those kinds of, emotions and and human traits are not gonna go away. You know? They they're they're they're here for the long term. But I do I do think it's important to study history to try not to, you know, go you know, do some of the the the the wrong things we did before that led us down a bad path and also to, to analyze what goes on and determine what's right and wrong and and who's right and wrong and and that sort of thing. So His history is important. I think we do still, you know, analyze aspects of of history and come up with lessons that we can can take away. There there are plenty of lessons to be learned from from this feud, and then, you know, one of which is that, you know, emotions can get the better of us. And if you have conflict, it's always better to step back and to give it some thought and to try to discuss and talk through something when when emotions aren't so hot.

So, you know, that's a big initial lesson.

Yeah. And so with that in mind, I mean, how did they even get to the place where they were able to sign a peace treaty? They there had to be some of that kind of conversation you're talking about.

Well, you know, again, I I I mentioned that these are salt of the earth families who who give a a a higher proportion of their of their families to the military than a than a lot of areas. When the when the gulf wars were were, happening, you had Hatfields and McCoys who were there, you know, fighting the war and the Hatfields and McCoys came together and said, look, you know, after 9/11, we wanna show that, even though the Hatfields and McCoys, you know, have their differences that are feuding. If you attack America, we're coming together. You're fighting both of us. We're gonna be side my side, and and I think they they they they they felt that, and they partly, felt they needed to do that to support their family members who are off fighting the war to show this kind of support. And and so that big event brought them together to to sign this peace treaty.

Okay. That's interesting. I didn't know that. So once the war was over, They went back to now they've gotta defend their own families and keep the

food going. I'm not sure that ever went away, but, the The hostility that had been generated from actual, murders and betrayals of all sorts back then, They they wanted to bury that hatchet. You know? They're still very proud of their family history, and it is a gem of American history, I think. Even though it's complex and complicated, you wish that that certain family members had behaved in different ways, I think it is uniquely American. There is a lot to learn from it. I think you can see these these aspects, of of their self reliance and their, strong feelings and their, Desire to stand up for themselves and speak out are all very American type behaviors, and again, it's something we can look at and go, okay, for better and for worse. You know? It it makes us strong people. We believe what we believe in.

We believe, you know, in right and that we're right, But we should also look out on are there other side and say, are are we sometimes you know, are feelings too strong? And should we learn to compromise in certain situations? And, and should we put our emotions aside and and try to talk through things? You know, it doesn't always work. I I think that the the next thing you gotta learn is that, if if you can't do it on your own, you you need to go get some help, you know, you need to go find the counselors or, you know, the the moderators in in the law, And that even went in on back in the day. You know, Devil Lance would go to the to the, law and and try to get in the courtroom and so did Randall McCoy. So these 2 patriarchs understood that. Again, we've we've reduced this, and I think those New York reporters did us a disservice when they said these were toothless moonshine and hillbillies. Mhmm. These were intelligent people, and they were sophisticated in their own way, and they were ambitious. You know, they they have logging businesses, and they were, they were, you know, creating timber that rebuilt the nation after the war.

And and so they they they did work the system when it worked for them often. And when it didn't, they, unfortunately, sometimes, You know, well into their own hands.

Yeah. But it also seemed like at the towards the end of your book, you were talking about several of these people. I'm looking at your thing now, your family chart, but several of them towards the end seem to start to step back from the violence and the shootings and start to think there was a better way. Devil Anse was 1, and one of his sons, Cap, wasn't it?

Yep. Who became an attorney. Devil Ansel was was born again. One of his grandsons will become the governor of the state of West Virginia. Yeah. You know? Again, You know, that that disservice, these were intelligent, ambitious people, and they had, they had means and, the ability to advance themselves in I think I think all Americans can identify with that. We're a nation of of immigrants who, you know, came here largely to rebuild their lives from from someplace where they weren't doing as well, and they were eager to improve selves, and I think that spirit has has always, been with us.

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So, as we said earlier, one of the takeaways, from the book was the moonshine that, showed up during the elections, and moonshine and guns don't mix. But, seriously, when when you think about 2 to 3 lessons that can be learned from the feud besides the ones that you've just mentioned. Are there a couple more that you think, you know, between families and you've talked about as Americans, but what about within families and between families?

Well, I I think, you know, one thing we we we don't see enough of is is, an act of generosity of, you know, in in the future so much of somebody saying, okay. You did this, but let's, We're gonna we're gonna take that, but let's move on in a positive way. And I think, it it almost takes more courage to, you know, turn the other cheek. You might be accused by your family of being softer, you you know, but, and and it's more rare. I think I think we need more of that. We could, you know, and and that could have ended the the hostilities sooner. I think that, you know, We should also think about, the the long term. If we can commit a, a violent act, the long term repercussions of that, can go on for generations, and and that's the nature of the few too that that that the initial act is forgotten almost, But the families know they they hate each other.

They've been trained to hate each other, and and so there's no way to resolve it anymore only because it it it all you've got is this passed down conflict and hatred as opposed to, you know, a real reason, something that you can actually sit down and go, well, Here's what happened. Here's what went wrong, and, you know, apologies or or whatever. So, you know, I think those are are are are some lessons. The the idea that that that bitterness and anger can be passed down to the next generation very easily. You know? Our our children pick up on things, You know, if if aunts and uncles are not your brothers and sisters aren't getting along together. They know their aunts and uncles, you know, and and that can it brings divisions to families that, We have hard time healing. It just gets harder and harder.

We do. And I think it's it's interesting if you can ever sit down with people that you feel like you have everything you disagree about, you find out that there really are things that you can agree on, like You love your own children. You know? Well, so do I. And you like good food. Well, so do I. So Instead of only looking at all of the things that we disagree about, you know, what if we can find a few things that we can agree on and start from there?

I agree. You know, in in the case of of the feud, each family has its own history. And because some of it was What was going on was not legal. It was whispered, and it wasn't said out loud, and it's sort of passed down, and you'll get different versions of each event from each family. And I experienced that when I tried to reconcile them in the book. I tried to look at, okay, here are all the possibilities. Here's what these guys said. Here's what these guys said.

And I tried to bring those together and look at the evidence and come up with what I thought was the the clearest true history to the story, but it it wasn't, ultimately, wasn't, something that could please both sides all the time.

And Well, the book was intense and so much detail. I don't know how you kept track of everybody. I really had to take my time Keeping track of everybody. It's but it's called The Feud, The Hatfields and McCoys, The True Story by Dean King. If you are interested in history and what went on during that feud, I highly recommend this book, and and you will need all of those, Family charts in there to keep track of who's who. If you'd like to connect with Dean, you can check out his website, which is deanhking.com. There, you'll see all of his books that he's written, And you can also email him at deanhking@gmail.com. So let him know what you thought about this story and other questions, and you can certainly join us on the The 30th January 30th as a boomer believer, and talk to Dean 1 on 1 within our Zoom meeting.

So That will be go to buy me a coffee.com/heyboomer 0413, and come and talk with Dean and me. And I love it when I hear your comments too. Please let me know as you're listening live in your comments. Comment on the podcast. Let me know what you liked, What you thought I didn't ask, that I should have asked. You know, always trying to get better at that. And, also, be sure to support our sponsor, road scholar.org by going to roadscholar.org/heyboomer. So go plan your next trip.

Okay. So coming up, continuing on our learning about family dynamics and how to heal broken relationships. My guest next week is doctor Janet Steinkamp. Doctor Steinkamp is an educator, a teacher trainer, a communication expert, an estrangement consultant, a researcher, and a mom. In conjunction with several professional roles, She spent her career of 25 plus years working with people to develop effective individual and group communication skills, establish healthy relationships and be confident, successful, purpose driven people. We will be diving into improving our communication skills within in our families, something that all of us need. So to continue To embrace this time of your life with exploration, self expression, and fulfillment, thank you so much, Dean, for what you shared today. This was Fascinating book and fascinating discussion.

Thanks for having me on, Wendy. I enjoyed it.

Oh, I'm glad you did. I the Hey Boomer show is produced by me, Wendy Green, and the music was written and performed by Griffin Hanrato, a student at the North Carolina University School of the Arts, and my grandson.