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Who is Jesus to me | Origin Series #06
26th October 2022 • CROWD Church Livestream • Crowd Church
00:00:00 01:05:19

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James Sloan talks about who is Jesus, whilst going through John 7:25-8:59. Also featuring a testimony!

-- ORIGIN --

This topic is part of the Origin series where we look at the birth of the church and ask why this Man, Jesus, from 2000 years ago still has a major impact on the world today.

-- MORE INFO --

CROWD Church is a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps live a more meaningful life. We are a com­mu­ni­ty, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place where you can con­tribute and grow.

More info: www.crowd.church

Transcripts

Matt Edmundson:

Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.

Matt Edmundson:

We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps

Matt Edmundson:

us live a more meaningful life.

Matt Edmundson:

We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place

Matt Edmundson:

where you can contribute and grow.

Matt Edmundson:

Our service, uh, will last about an hour and in a few seconds you'll

Matt Edmundson:

meet our hosts, uh, for our service, who will introduce today's talk.

Matt Edmundson:

After the talk, we will have a time of worship and reflection after which we

Matt Edmundson:

head into Conversation Street, where we look at your stories and questions

Matt Edmundson:

that you've posted in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

Now, we want to invite you to connect with us here at Crowd Church, and we've got a

Matt Edmundson:

few ways in which you can do just that.

Matt Edmundson:

Firstly, you can engage with crowd from any device during our live

Matt Edmundson:

stream, and if you're up for.

Matt Edmundson:

Why not invite a few friends over and experience the service together?

Matt Edmundson:

You see, church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others.

Matt Edmundson:

And one of the easiest ways for you to do that is join one of our

Matt Edmundson:

midweek groups where we meet online together to catch up and discover

Matt Edmundson:

more about the amazingness of Christ.

Matt Edmundson:

You can also subscribe to our fairly new podcast called What's the Story,

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, where we deep dive into stories of faith and courage from everyday people.

Matt Edmundson:

More information about all of these things can be found on our website,

Matt Edmundson:

www.crowd.church, or you can reach out to us on social media at Crowd church.

Matt Edmundson:

If you are new to Crowd or new to the Christian faith and would like

Matt Edmundson:

to know what your next steps to take are why not head over to our website

Matt Edmundson:

crowd.church/next for more details.

Matt Edmundson:

And now the moment you've been waiting for is here.

Matt Edmundson:

Our Online Church Service starts right now.

Matt Edmundson:

Well, good afternoon and welcome to Crowd Church.

Matt Edmundson:

Crowd Online Church.

Matt Edmundson:

I am here with the very right Reverend s p j, and I dunno how many other initials

Matt Edmundson:

we can give you John, John Harding.

Matt Edmundson:

Great to have you with us, bro.

John Harding:

It's great to be with you Matt.

John Harding:

And uh, the less initials the better in my opinion..

John Harding:

Yeah, it's good to see you and it's good to be here.

John Harding:

Love what you guys are doing and it is always a joy to take up.

John Harding:

So thank you for having me.

Matt Edmundson:

Oh no, it's great.

Matt Edmundson:

It's great.

Matt Edmundson:

We've just, um, we've just been eating some of Zoe's muffins, haven't we?

Matt Edmundson:

So it's, it's not a bad way to start.

John Harding:

Zoe's Fantastic.

John Harding:

So if Zoe does watch it back, I've gotta say they were excellent.

Matt Edmundson:

Matt's put in the comments here.

Matt Edmundson:

Where's my pistachio?

Matt Edmundson:

I, I have no idea what that's about.

John Harding:

Lasagna.

John Harding:

And I'm, um, I'm on it.

John Harding:

Matt, I'll, I'll, I'll give it a go with this next week or so.

John Harding:

I've got some time off for half term.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And that's you.

John Harding:

Low cook.

John Harding:

You see, you've gotta give it plenty of time.

Matt Edmundson:

Ah, very good.

Matt Edmundson:

Well, if you are just joining us, we are not a cooking channel.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, we are in fact an online church.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and as, as you did tend to do with church, uh, you tend to

Matt Edmundson:

talk about food an awful lot.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, church tends to revolve around food.

Matt Edmundson:

So, uh, yeah, we are an online church.

Matt Edmundson:

Good to see you.

Matt Edmundson:

Good that you are here.

Matt Edmundson:

If you are, uh, up for it to say hi in the comments, if you're watching on the live,

Matt Edmundson:

we're on Facebook, we are on YouTube.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, always nice to meet you in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

I'll be in there throughout the service.

Matt Edmundson:

George is, uh, also in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

He's moderating, um, uh, he's moderating for crowd.

Matt Edmundson:

So when it says that crowd church needs to try this, this

Matt Edmundson:

is in fact George saying that.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, so, uh, yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

And there's Matt Crew in the comments, so if you there say hi, be great to see.

Matt Edmundson:

This week we have in fact, John, why don't you say who we've got this week.

John Harding:

Well, we have got James Sloan, who is the CEO of Imagine If Trust,

John Harding:

uh, charity based in Liverpool that are doing incredible transformative impact

John Harding:

work, working with marginalized people, um, doing work as far as Congo, DRC.

John Harding:

Uh, James is the real deal, is part of the, uh, senior leadership team

John Harding:

at Frontline Church, a good friend.

John Harding:

And, um, we are gonna really, really be blessed by James's

John Harding:

thoughts as he shares today.

John Harding:

I know that for sure.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, absolutely James.

Matt Edmundson:

What a legend he is.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and then after James' talk, we're gonna have a time of worship where you

Matt Edmundson:

can sing along and if you don't know the words, they'll be on the screen.

Matt Edmundson:

You can sing along if you're able to do so.

Matt Edmundson:

Or just think about the words as they come along.

Matt Edmundson:

And then after that, John and I will be back for Conversation Street,

Matt Edmundson:

where we will talk through your questions, um, and comments, Uh, and

Matt Edmundson:

we will love it and we'll get into it.

Matt Edmundson:

I'm very, very much looking forward to Conversation Street, John,

Matt Edmundson:

cuz we always have a good time chatting about things I think.

John Harding:

We certainly do lots to chat about.

John Harding:

And, um, do, try and keep your mic muted when you are doing the singing.

John Harding:

People might not realize Matt, um, base voice, but, um, you, you hear it

John Harding:

on this screen, but fortunately mute setting, it doesn't go out publicly.

John Harding:

So

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, I've not, I've not made that slip up yet where I've left

Matt Edmundson:

my mic on, uh, whilst doing worship.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, Dion's in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

Dion.

Matt Edmundson:

Hey, how you doing?

Matt Edmundson:

I hope you are feeling at least a little bit better.

Matt Edmundson:

Dion had covid bless her.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and so hopefully you're, you are recovering Dion.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, Sarah's in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

High Sarah?

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, high double I on the high.

Matt Edmundson:

So Hi . Yes.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, go.

Matt Edmundson:

Great to see you in there.

Matt Edmundson:

I do keep saying hi in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

It'd be great to see.

Matt Edmundson:

, Right.

Matt Edmundson:

So what we're gonna do now, uh, we will jump straight into James' talk, which,

Matt Edmundson:

uh, John so masterfully, uh, introduced.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and then we'll have the worship where I definitely will be muting my microphone.

Matt Edmundson:

And then we'll be back for Coronation Street at Coronation Street.

Matt Edmundson:

We're not gonna do Coronation Street, it's gonna be Conversation Street.

Matt Edmundson:

Just so you know, um, uh, . I dunno why I said Coronation Street.

Matt Edmundson:

That's really mental.

Matt Edmundson:

Okay, so here's the talk . We'll be back after this.

Matt Edmundson:

Oh, why is that button stop working every week?

Matt Edmundson:

Here we go.

Matt Edmundson:

Let's try it again.

James Sloan:

Today we're continuing our journey through the series called Origin.

James Sloan:

We're looking at the book of John, the last of the four gospels, and very much

James Sloan:

unlike Matthew, Mark, and Luke, in the way it describes the life and events of Jesus.

James Sloan:

So today we're in chapter seven.

James Sloan:

And we see the identity of Jesus called into question.

James Sloan:

And I wanna look at a couple of points of the chapter and see what

James Sloan:

we can learn from it together, but not as an academic exercise.

James Sloan:

You know, as Christians, we believe the Bible to be, to be God's word to us, Uh,

James Sloan:

not just a text or a historic account.

James Sloan:

In fact, Nicky Gumbel, uh, a well known, uh, pastor of a church in

James Sloan:

London says, uh, the Bible is the only book who's author is always present

James Sloan:

with you every time you read it.

James Sloan:

So for me, every time I read the Bible, I look to reflect on what I feel God

James Sloan:

might be saying to me through His word.

James Sloan:

It helps me to grow my faith as I seek to, to share Jesus with those around me.

James Sloan:

And this passage in John has loads that we can reflect on and learn

James Sloan:

about in the person of Jesus.

James Sloan:

So a Titled this short talk, who is Jesus to me?

James Sloan:

For context, we pick up, uh, John's account as a debate.

James Sloan:

Uh, rage is on about Jesus' testimony and his claims to be the son of God.

James Sloan:

The people of Jerusalem.

James Sloan:

Probably a small mob of devout Jews claim he cannot be the Christ

James Sloan:

as they know where he's from.

James Sloan:

This could be due to scriptures, um, from the Old Testament.

James Sloan:

Um, in books like Malachi where it says that God's messenger will come suddenly

James Sloan:

to the temple, it may have been a popular belief that Messiah would just appear

James Sloan:

out of nowhere, almost as if he was waiting concealed, and someday were just

James Sloan:

burst suddenly upon the world and no one would know where he had come from.

James Sloan:

So let's look at Jesus' response to their accusations.

James Sloan:

It says, Yes, you think you know me and where I'm from,

James Sloan:

but that's not where I'm from.

James Sloan:

My true origin is in the one who sent me.

James Sloan:

And you don't know him at all.

James Sloan:

I know that I come from him.

James Sloan:

That's how I know him.

James Sloan:

He sent me here.

James Sloan:

That's the message translation of John 7:28.

James Sloan:

They may have known Jesus came from Nazareth, but they didn't understand his

James Sloan:

origin and his relationship to the Father.

James Sloan:

If they knew God the Father, then they would know Christ

James Sloan:

the Son as the two are one.

James Sloan:

The crowd where perhaps confused about where the Messiah would come from, but

James Sloan:

Jesus knew exactly where he came from.

James Sloan:

His origin and his mission were from God.

James Sloan:

I am from him and he sent me.

James Sloan:

Now for me growing up, I heard a lot about Jesus and all the Bible stories,

James Sloan:

but I didn't have any kind of sense of understanding what a relationship

James Sloan:

with God looked or or even felt like.

James Sloan:

It wasn't until later in life that I really felt the presence

James Sloan:

of God and then all the stories and Bible verses made sense.

James Sloan:

Cause it wasn't focused on following a religion, but living a life of faith.

James Sloan:

Suddenly it felt like an adventure rather than a bunch of rules.

James Sloan:

It was liberating.

James Sloan:

It was life giving.

James Sloan:

It was life shaping.

James Sloan:

Recently I've been on a, on a parenting course, um, about raising

James Sloan:

kids in, in church, and it talks about the difference between being

James Sloan:

God smart and being God connected.

James Sloan:

We can, we can teach our kids all the information from the Bible

James Sloan:

and they can sing all the songs at church, but this doesn't mean

James Sloan:

they'll feel connected to God.

James Sloan:

It's a step of faith they had to take for themselves.

James Sloan:

The crowds had seen and heard of his miracles, but they couldn't allow

James Sloan:

themselves to believe that this carpenter from Nazareth was the Messiah, the one

James Sloan:

they'd been waiting for, the one who could save them from Roman occupation,

James Sloan:

and the one who could bring salvation.

James Sloan:

They lacked faith.

James Sloan:

Then it, it would appear in the passage that some time, um, passes

James Sloan:

and then Jesus speaks on the last day of one of the Jewish feasts.

James Sloan:

This would've gained serious attention as using the temple courts,

James Sloan:

which was like, um, a busy area directly outside the temple itself.

James Sloan:

Um, but also because it says that he stood up to speak.

James Sloan:

Now, most teachers, rabbis, um, would've been, would've been sat down

James Sloan:

when they taught from scriptures.

James Sloan:

So in John verse 37, uh, John 7 37, Sorry.

James Sloan:

It says, If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink.

James Sloan:

He who believes in me, as the scripture said, out of his heart,

James Sloan:

will flow rivers and living water.

James Sloan:

But this, he spoke concerning the spirit whom those believing in him would receive

James Sloan:

for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

James Sloan:

So, quick bit of religious context, the Feast of Tabernacles,

James Sloan:

which lasted eight days.

James Sloan:

All through the first seven days, water from this pool called the pool

James Sloan:

of siloam, was carried in a, a golden pitcher and poured out the altar to

James Sloan:

remind everyone of the water that God miraculously provided for a thirsty

James Sloan:

Israelite people in the wilderness.

James Sloan:

Jesus boldly called people to himself to drink and satisfy their deepest

James Sloan:

thirst, their spiritual thirst.

James Sloan:

This invitation was, was broad because it said if anyone from any

James Sloan:

intelligent, race, gender, nationality, or political party, it's not limited.

James Sloan:

However, the invitation was, was narrow because it said if anyone thirsts,

James Sloan:

they must first see their need.

James Sloan:

Thirst is not anything in itself.

James Sloan:

It's a lack of something.

James Sloan:

It's an emptiness, a crying need.

James Sloan:

And Jesus is essentially saying to the crowd, there's no more

James Sloan:

water at the temple, and in the rituals that you followed, I have

James Sloan:

the water you're looking for.

James Sloan:

To come to Jesus and to drink was essentially to put your faith in

James Sloan:

him, to trust in, rely on and cling to Jesus for both time and eternity.

James Sloan:

But Jesus didn't only speak of something coming into a person, but

James Sloan:

something flowing out of them as well.

James Sloan:

It was not only a, a blessing received, but, but a blessing

James Sloan:

to others, a source of blessing.

James Sloan:

And if you put your trust in Jesus and throwing him in your

James Sloan:

life, in your heart, then life and abundance will flow out to others.

James Sloan:

And this is where I find the joy of living as a Christian.

James Sloan:

It's not a constant strive for self-improvement.

James Sloan:

It's finding your place in God family and making your contribution

James Sloan:

to serve those both with within, um, and outside of the church.

James Sloan:

There's this passage I love in the book of Ezekiel, um, where it

James Sloan:

talks about water flowing from the temple towards a, a dry desert land.

James Sloan:

As it flows the water gets deeper and deeper, um, as it flows out towards

James Sloan:

the sea and along the way you hear the, there are fresh fish in the water, the

James Sloan:

fruit trees on its bank and everything it touches kind of springs into life.

James Sloan:

And for me, that's a reminder of the potential of the church to bring life

James Sloan:

into our communities as the people of God bless others through their

James Sloan:

words and through their actions.

James Sloan:

That's a church that I love and that I believe Jesus is coming back for.

James Sloan:

Now after all these, um, accounts were given in John seven, we see

James Sloan:

that there are a number of reactions and responses from the crowd.

James Sloan:

Some say he was a prophet, some say he was the Christ, others

James Sloan:

doubted and and wanted to kill him.

James Sloan:

So what's your response to Jesus?

James Sloan:

Have you put your trust in him?

James Sloan:

Have you put your faith in him?

James Sloan:

Are you God smart or God connected?

James Sloan:

Maybe you're watching this and have never taken that step of faith as

James Sloan:

it feels uncertain or or scary.

James Sloan:

If that's the case, then I'd really encourage you to message a member

James Sloan:

of the crowd team or reach out to your local church or me personally

James Sloan:

since I made the decision to, to commit my life to following Jesus,

James Sloan:

I've, I've never looked back.

James Sloan:

It's given my life a sense of purpose.

James Sloan:

It's given me a, a church family with whom I can journey through life with.

James Sloan:

But it's also given me a sense of peace when the world is flipped upside down

James Sloan:

like we've seen in previous years.

James Sloan:

And it means I can trust in God, the one who never changes.

James Sloan:

I'd love to share a little video with you, a lady called Anna.

James Sloan:

Um, Anna came into our church building about eight years

James Sloan:

ago, um, looking for help.

James Sloan:

She was given food and connected with some volunteers from the church.

James Sloan:

Uh, and fast forward to the present day, and she's now working with

James Sloan:

the homeless, um, in Liverpool and leading a Polish church congregation.

James Sloan:

You know, she, she encountered Jesus.

James Sloan:

And since then, her life has been transformed and she's found her place

James Sloan:

in, in a church family where she can serve and be a blessing to others,

James Sloan:

just like we read in the passage today.

James Sloan:

So I pray today that you would experience this living water of Jesus Christ in

James Sloan:

your life and it would fill you to overflowing to bless those around you.

James Sloan:

This is Anna's story.

Anna Dzugala:

I was born in Poland when I spent 20 years of my life.

Anna Dzugala:

I moved to England and I met my partner.

Anna Dzugala:

Then when I was 20, I spent with him eight years, which were not

Anna Dzugala:

very healthy at most of the times.

Anna Dzugala:

I've got two children with him.

Anna Dzugala:

During to arguments and different lifestyle, we separated and

Anna Dzugala:

not very pleasant situation.

Anna Dzugala:

I didn't know where to look for support.

Anna Dzugala:

I've been given a voucher for food bank as I need some supplies

Anna Dzugala:

for me and the children, and I ended up in Frontline Church.

Anna Dzugala:

I walked through the door and I was greeted with the most kind smile

Anna Dzugala:

and a welcoming presence of Estelle.

Anna Dzugala:

Estelle spoken to me like nobody before about this fantastic and amazing

Anna Dzugala:

person who loves me no matter what I've done and what I've been through.

Anna Dzugala:

And she just told me that he wants me to be with him and that he will

Anna Dzugala:

give me everything I need and care for me and that his name is Jesus.

Anna Dzugala:

But the first nine months of social care help, we've been giving a place

Anna Dzugala:

in domestic violence refuge, which was very good, but we didn't have any

Anna Dzugala:

money as our claim didn't go through.

Anna Dzugala:

So we need the support.

Anna Dzugala:

It is very difficult to ask for food when you have nothing and to children,

Anna Dzugala:

it's a very humbling experience.

Anna Dzugala:

I didn't have to go through very painful roads because of people from frontline.

Anna Dzugala:

They just, they just got the money together, brought food now and

Anna Dzugala:

then treated me always with respect and dignity, and they always pray.

Anna Dzugala:

I had.

Anna Dzugala:

I had so many friends then, but the best feeling was that, that people pray for

Anna Dzugala:

me that there is this Jesus, this amazing person who looks after me and my children,

Anna Dzugala:

and that, that I don't have to be worried anymore because he will provide for every

Anna Dzugala:

single thing that I need, and he did that when I was on my own and children asleep.

Anna Dzugala:

I had nobody to turn into.

Anna Dzugala:

Then on one Sunday when I came in, I was just greeted with this big family in here.

Anna Dzugala:

Lots of people.

Anna Dzugala:

Nobody asked who I am, where I'm from.

Anna Dzugala:

They just accepted me how I am with my children, and they

Anna Dzugala:

just love me for who I was.

Anna Dzugala:

The community here allowed me to blossom, to feel good about myself, to put the

Anna Dzugala:

past behind me and learn new things about what is amazing God, that is our father.

Anna Dzugala:

I've managed to meet Ben with his community.

Anna Dzugala:

That is Bible heritage.

Anna Dzugala:

I've managed to explore even more about Bible and find out about Jesus

Anna Dzugala:

and live by what he wanted me to live by, and that's amazing to know that

Anna Dzugala:

she, for every single day, you blessed with a God present and you're doing

Anna Dzugala:

everything best to please him, and he's gonna be happy for you no matter what.

Anna Dzugala:

It was just the best thing I knew and I knew from that particular

Anna Dzugala:

moment that there is nothing else I can give to my children.

Anna Dzugala:

I'm not rich.

Anna Dzugala:

I won't have many things to give to them, but I can show them God.

Anna Dzugala:

I can introduce them to Jesus.

Anna Dzugala:

If they manage to build that connection with God, then my job is done.

Anna Dzugala:

I am.

Anna Dzugala:

I am ticked my, My parenting has been proven to be good.

Anna Dzugala:

Today I work in a Catholic school.

Anna Dzugala:

I work in a primary school where Jesus is celebrity.

Anna Dzugala:

He's celebrated every day with the prayer.

Anna Dzugala:

The children know who he is.

Anna Dzugala:

They can ask and speak freely about Jesus love to them and to others.

Anna Dzugala:

The Catholic school allowed me to meet other people, to speak to

Anna Dzugala:

other parents and use my talents to languages to translate and to just let

Anna Dzugala:

everybody know how much God loves them.

Anna Dzugala:

And it is amazing how just simple sentence make can make so

Anna Dzugala:

much difference in people life.

Anna Dzugala:

Just to know that you know what, I know it's difficult, but

Anna Dzugala:

there is Jesus and he loves you.

Anna Dzugala:

And that's put smile on people face.

Matt Edmundson:

Okay.

Matt Edmundson:

Only in you Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

I love that track by Greg and Martha.

Matt Edmundson:

I, And you have to play it loud I think, for it to to make sense really.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

I could hear you singing from the garden.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

But at least, it's on mute for everybody else.

Matt Edmundson:

I was double checking and rechecking and doing all that kind of

Matt Edmundson:

checking, but yes, so welcome back.

Matt Edmundson:

So James, thank you for doing that talk.

Matt Edmundson:

Anna, thank you for sharing your story.

Matt Edmundson:

Love Anna.

Matt Edmundson:

She is such an alleged, Anna's one of these people that when you

Matt Edmundson:

meet her, you can never forget her because she just has this.

Matt Edmundson:

aura of loveliness around her, doesn't she?

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and absolutely.

Matt Edmundson:

She's just amazing.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, just amazing.

Matt Edmundson:

So, um, thank you for sharing, uh, Dion's, put in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, you also have to harmonize and sing hashtag Sing With the Angels.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, if you've just joined us, uh, John was maybe alluding to the fact

Matt Edmundson:

that when I sing it's, it's not very musical before we went to the, uh,

Matt Edmundson:

to the, to the talk, but that's okay.

Matt Edmundson:

That's okay.

Matt Edmundson:

So we're just carrying on that conversation

John Harding:

Go from those to the Lord Matt.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

And it is a noise, bro.

John Harding:

And I completely agree with you because, I mean, I just

John Harding:

loved listening to James share and I loved listening to Anna Chshareer

John Harding:

because I, I know them, and they're explaining effectively the source

John Harding:

of their joy of their life that.

John Harding:

The difference that they make in people's lives.

John Harding:

They are great people to be around.

John Harding:

James is great fun to be around.

John Harding:

Anna just gives you a big hug and is making such a massive difference, uh, for,

John Harding:

uh, particularly Polish, Polish and other people, Liverpool, homeless people, and

John Harding:

they just really explain in some of the source of where that comes from in Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, they were, and they did a great job, eh, And um, I

Matt Edmundson:

and Anne is one of those people that I would love to dig into a story a

Matt Edmundson:

lot more than just like a few minutes.

Matt Edmundson:

Do you know what I mean?

Matt Edmundson:

And, um, we have this new podcast, Shameless plug.

Matt Edmundson:

We have this new podcast called What's the Story where we do

Matt Edmundson:

deep dive into people's stories.

Matt Edmundson:

We just launched one this week.

Matt Edmundson:

The latest one is with Malcolm, Trish Morgan, um, talking about higher heights

Matt Edmundson:

and deeper seas, which was a phenomenal, uh, conversation with those guys.

Matt Edmundson:

And in fact, they, they contacted me the next day.

Matt Edmundson:

They emailed me the next day saying, Oh, we've just been talking to somebody

Matt Edmundson:

in Boise, Idaho who got a, you know, they heard, heard the podcast amazing.

Matt Edmundson:

And they said, It's just great how the sort of the world

Matt Edmundson:

shrunk for them a little bit.

Matt Edmundson:

But yeah.

John Harding:

And that's of course the name of Trish's book, which

John Harding:

is just out, I read it last week.

John Harding:

So encouraging.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

It is just story after story of Trish and Malc's life and how

John Harding:

they've just taken a risk, said yes to God and a very, That's yeah.

John Harding:

Really encouraging book of it.

John Harding:

It's not, you don't read it and think, Wow, Trish is amazing, even

John Harding:

though they're amazing stories.

John Harding:

You read it thinking God is amazing.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And wants to lead us into an adventure.

John Harding:

So I, You can get it on Amazon um, I'd seen that recently.

John Harding:

It's really worth a good recommend for half term.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, it is a very, very good book.

Matt Edmundson:

Can definitely check it out.

Matt Edmundson:

Check out the podcast if you're not subscribed to what's the story?

Matt Edmundson:

Do Check it out.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, where you do hear people's stories about how Jesus has actually transformed

Matt Edmundson:

their lives, which is something I actually, John, you were talking

Matt Edmundson:

about this morning, um, you know, this sort, this transformation effect

Matt Edmundson:

of Christ that actually, um, we got a comment, uh, on YouTube from Gary.

Matt Edmundson:

I wanna say, um, I, I noticed the other day, uh, who, who it was basically

Matt Edmundson:

saying, you know, this, the whole Jesus thing was a big fairy tale and a big

Matt Edmundson:

myth, but how do you actually know?

Matt Edmundson:

And, um, I thought actually that tied in really well with what you were saying

Matt Edmundson:

this morning that actually, you know, because Jesus transformed you, right?

Matt Edmundson:

He, he just, that's what.

Matt Edmundson:

. John Harding: Totally.

Matt Edmundson:

That's the point, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

There are lots of people who may go to churches and be religious that

Matt Edmundson:

haven't had the encounter with Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Mm.

Matt Edmundson:

For sure.

Matt Edmundson:

But when you've encountered Jesus, it changes your life.

Matt Edmundson:

Mm-hmm.

Matt Edmundson:

, uh, and that's what we're all about.

Matt Edmundson:

And I know you've had that Matt.

Matt Edmundson:

I've had that that's what we were saying before about James, about

Matt Edmundson:

Anna and James did say that quote from Nicky Gumbel, God is present

Matt Edmundson:

with you when you read the Bible.

Matt Edmundson:

I am yet to find, um, somebody who's followed a fairy tale, whose life

Matt Edmundson:

has been radically transformed.

Matt Edmundson:

You know, it, it just doesn't happen.

Matt Edmundson:

There is a power in this.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and, and in this story that becomes a life transforming reality.

Matt Edmundson:

And so effectively we read ourselves into the story, um, and same way when you read

Matt Edmundson:

John's gospel, you see people encountering Jesus, having their lives transformed,

Matt Edmundson:

all sorts of different types of people.

Matt Edmundson:

And then you think, Well, could you do that for me Jesus?

Matt Edmundson:

And that simple invitation.

Matt Edmundson:

So yeah, that, that's, we are all about transformation.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and that came across so well in talk, I thought.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

Dionne's put in here in the comments, you know, when you've

Matt Edmundson:

met someone touched by Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Fact.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, do you would you agree?

Matt Edmundson:

I mean, you just put it in the comments, but Yeah.

John Harding:

Undoubtedly, and the point is it's not a off thing, is it?

John Harding:

No, that's the point.

John Harding:

And I mean, are invited to encounter Jesus again and again.

John Harding:

And I think it's in that place of encounter that we are

John Harding:

more and more transformed for those who want a theological

John Harding:

framework 2 Corinthians 3 18,19.

John Harding:

As we gaze at Jesus, as we look into his face, we are

John Harding:

transformed into his likeness.

John Harding:

That's how transformation takes place for Christians.

John Harding:

It's not religious rule keeping.

John Harding:

It's not, it, it's not about that.

John Harding:

It's about relationship.

John Harding:

And so, um, yeah, there are times over the years where you meet people who've walked

John Harding:

very closely with Jesus and are living in that place of encounter with Jesus.

John Harding:

And they radiate peace and they radiate joy.

John Harding:

And I think you said before about Anna, she radiates joy.

John Harding:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Harding:

And she does sometimes I've gotta say, um, I like to pop into the Polish church or

John Harding:

into the Iranian church because you gotta have Pastor John and everyone's like.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And, um, and that's what we're about and such.

John Harding:

Sure.

John Harding:

We have up days and down days, don't we?

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

And uh, that we, we have the whole spectrum of human emotion, but actually,

John Harding:

um, there is you, you know, when some one spends time with Jesus, uh,

John Harding:

because it, it radiates from them.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, you do.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and like John said, you know, it, uh, fact, it is, and I, I totally agree.

Matt Edmundson:

I to and I like you.

Matt Edmundson:

I love going to see the, the guys at the Polish church, you know, you spoke there,

Matt Edmundson:

I've spoke there, had such a great time, uh, with, with the group and just, they

Matt Edmundson:

all, that's just the thing about church.

Matt Edmundson:

So Miriam put here, um, that where's it gone?

Matt Edmundson:

I go to church to encounter Jesus and to love others.

Matt Edmundson:

That's what she wrote in the, in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

And I think actually that's a very, I love the simplicity of that.

Matt Edmundson:

Why do you go to church?

Matt Edmundson:

Well, I go to church to encounter Jesus first and foremost, right?

Matt Edmundson:

To encounter God and I, and I know John, you wouldn't be sat where you are.

Matt Edmundson:

And I wouldn't be sat where I am doing what we're doing on a Sunday night

Matt Edmundson:

if that encounter had not been real.

John Harding:

A hundred percent.

John Harding:

And so the metaphor, the picture that James used from John seven today to

John Harding:

give a reason for why he does his work with imagine if trust and, and

John Harding:

he could earn a, he is a bright guy.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

You know, um, masters in psychology from Liverpool University.

John Harding:

He could earn a lot more doing something else somewhere else.

John Harding:

You know?

John Harding:

Why is he doing what he's doing?

John Harding:

Why are we doing what we're doing?

John Harding:

Matt, you give a huge amount of voluntary time to run Crowd Church.

John Harding:

You know, you must be mad, but it's, the picture that used

John Harding:

is you drink living water.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

Jesus is like living water.

John Harding:

And as you get into his presence and as you receive that and you come and

John Harding:

you're filled again and again, it's a bit like, I mean, I've got a glass here.

John Harding:

It's like you start filling that glass, at some point something will happen.

John Harding:

It'll start to overflow.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

It will start to pour out into the lives of others.

John Harding:

And, and that's very much, um, what I heard from what James and

John Harding:

Anna was saying, the reason why they're doing what they're doing.

John Harding:

I would want, I would hope people would know.

John Harding:

That's why I do what I'm doing.

John Harding:

It's because when you receive Jesus, when you're transformed by

John Harding:

him, it sort of overflows out into the life of others and refreshers

John Harding:

others and has an impact on others.

John Harding:

And again, put a whole bunch of people together like that.

John Harding:

We'd call that a church.

John Harding:

Yep.

John Harding:

And that uses sort of link in Ezekiel and that water flowing out

John Harding:

from the temple and bringing life and refreshing to all around them.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

That's the great thing, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

This, um, uh, about this, this whole Christian, one of the things

Matt Edmundson:

that James touched on was this scripture from, uh, from John.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, uh, you, you think, you know me, uh, was the statement that he read.

Matt Edmundson:

And I thought this was a really interesting thing.

Matt Edmundson:

So I quickly googled misconceptions about Jesus, common misconceptions

Matt Edmundson:

people have about Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, Before I go through what I've written down here, uh, what are some of

Matt Edmundson:

the common misconceptions that you come across inside the church and outside

Matt Edmundson:

the church that people have about Jesus?

John Harding:

Yeah, good question.

John Harding:

I mean, it instantly makes me think of, um, that, um, that will feral

John Harding:

film where the, um, the of Ricky Bobby don't watch it, it's not

John Harding:

appropriate, but the like, like the saying grace around the dinner table.

John Harding:

And one of the kids goes, You know, I like to think Jesus is like

John Harding:

ninja and I like to think of Jesus.

John Harding:

One of 'em goes, Dear, dear, dear, little nine pounds, six sounds, baby Jesus.

John Harding:

So cute.

John Harding:

It's like, um, it's all well and good being like, Well, I think of Jesus like

John Harding:

this, or I think of Jesus like that.

John Harding:

I mean, let's look at the gospels and let's look at who Jesus really,

John Harding:

uh was and who he claimed to be.

John Harding:

And he is undoubtedly, consistently.

John Harding:

Um, uh, revealing that he is unique and God, but, um, that,

John Harding:

that's the point, isn't it?

John Harding:

Generally people are that there is no academic historical

John Harding:

doubt that Jesus existed.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

That is not the same for other religious leaders.

John Harding:

Um, historical religion founders, which we won't go into.

John Harding:

Uh, but there's no academic doubt that Jesus existed.

John Harding:

Um, so people wanna say, Well, Jesus was some sort of, um, rabbi

John Harding:

guru type of person, a teacher.

John Harding:

Um, some people might even say, um, a prophet.

John Harding:

Um, and really Jesus leaves no space for that.

John Harding:

And CS Lewis, the author of, uh, the Chronicles of Narnia wrote far more about,

John Harding:

um, Jesus and his life than anything else.

John Harding:

And I think he talks about madman, liar.

John Harding:

Lunatic.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

They are your three options.

John Harding:

Either Jesus is the son of God.

John Harding:

Unique God in human form, or he is a mad man, a liar or a lunatic.

John Harding:

I think he says he unequivalent of someone who claims to be a poached

John Harding:

egg, I think is the exact quote.

John Harding:

Don't, don't quote me, you know, Jesus left.

John Harding:

Generally that is what people, they, Oh, you know, you know, we, we have

John Harding:

like the nice inoffensive baby Jesus.

John Harding:

We can cope with that cause we get Christmas presents or we like the

John Harding:

Jesus that says nice things like love your neighbor and, um, turn

John Harding:

the other cheek, Jesus, the guru.

John Harding:

But actually Jesus, in this passage that James read was polarizing

John Harding:

people you either humble yourself and that knowledge that he is Messiah.

John Harding:

James used that word, The Christ, the long awaited promised Savior God

John Harding:

in human form on earth to saver us.

John Harding:

You've gotta humble yourself.

John Harding:

You've gotta, you've gotta say, I might not be right.

John Harding:

I might not be king of my life.

John Harding:

Um, and, and that, that takes humility.

John Harding:

It takes revelation actually.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

Um, you've, you've gotta do that.

John Harding:

Or people will write, write him off, but you can't write him off because

John Harding:

2000 years later, look at his impact.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

In the world.

John Harding:

He's still changing lives.

John Harding:

He's still transforming people.

John Harding:

He's still doing everything.

John Harding:

He said that he said it would, You know, I just think Matthew 28, he

John Harding:

said that he would never leave you.

John Harding:

And I know for a fact, Matt, that you and I have experienced that.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

When we received Jesus, we have known his presence with us.

John Harding:

And I'm sure the folks watching that know Jesus will have had a similar experience.

John Harding:

He's true to his promises.

John Harding:

Yes.

John Harding:

So, sorry for getting a little bit excited now.

John Harding:

No, you crack on.

John Harding:

my favorite topic.

Matt Edmundson:

No, I think, I think it's totally true though.

Matt Edmundson:

I, I wrote down some stats here from Barna Research.

Matt Edmundson:

Right.

Matt Edmundson:

Which I know you've come across before.

Matt Edmundson:

Mm.

Matt Edmundson:

So 29% of people surveyed think that Jesus is a prophet.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, 22% feel like he's, uh, said that he was a myth or a fictional character.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and this was, I mean, let's get, get onto that myth that's deepen because

Matt Edmundson:

obviously all the historical evidence that we've got, he wasn't a myth.

Matt Edmundson:

We actually know that he did come and live.

John Harding:

Josephus Tacitus, for example.

John Harding:

The writing about Jesus outside of, outside of the Gospels is massive.

John Harding:

You can't get away from it.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

You know, people, people writing historically to say, um, he, he was

John Harding:

a man who claimed to work miracles.

John Harding:

Do you know what I mean?

John Harding:

That sort of claims of God, um, that you can't get away from

John Harding:

the historical figure of Jesus.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

There's more historical evidence for Jesus than Julius.

Matt Edmundson:

That's one of my favorite quotes actually.

Matt Edmundson:

I think that was quite fun.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and in fact, Jesus makes reference to Caesar.

Matt Edmundson:

So, uh, do you know what I mean?

Matt Edmundson:

, But it's, um, so yeah, you got 22% think he's a myth or a fictional

Matt Edmundson:

character and 9% don't know who he is.

Matt Edmundson:

29% think he's a prophet.

Matt Edmundson:

And I just wanna come, I wanna circle back to this point,

Matt Edmundson:

because you mentioned CS Lewis.

Matt Edmundson:

You either accept that Jesus is a son of God, or he is a madman or a liar.

Matt Edmundson:

Why did CS Lewis say that?

Matt Edmundson:

And why do we in the church put that out there as something actually think about

Matt Edmundson:

this guys, Because, you know, if Jesus, Jesus wasn't a nice guy, he was either the

Matt Edmundson:

son of God or he was a complete lunatic, why, why do we give that polarization?

John Harding:

Well, some of the things get lost in two, the

John Harding:

year 2000 and um, 22 in English.

John Harding:

Some of the things that Jesus is saying.

John Harding:

That clearly, really angered the religious Jewish leaders of the day

John Harding:

Get lost a little bit in translation.

John Harding:

Uh, Jesus is clearly to claiming to be God in at numerous times.

John Harding:

I mean, we're going through John's gospel, the seven I am sayings.

John Harding:

He's claiming to forgive sins, and that's really important because

John Harding:

who on earth can forgive sins apart from God and wipe that slate clean?

John Harding:

Um, he's claiming that if you believe in him, and we get onto this in John's

John Harding:

gospel, I'm the resurrection of the life.

John Harding:

He's claiming that if you believe in him, even though you die, you'll be raised to

John Harding:

new life and spent eternity in heaven.

John Harding:

These, these are claims that if a person makes, you'd say they're

John Harding:

mad unless they can back them up.

John Harding:

That particular one, he backs up both by raising Lazarus from the dead and

John Harding:

also through his own resurrection.

John Harding:

Everything in Christianity hinges on the resurrection, the

John Harding:

death and resurrection of Jesus.

John Harding:

And so, um, that's why, yeah, he was a prophet, but more than a

John Harding:

prophet, he was a sinless savior.

John Harding:

And, um, that's why he, he claim the claims he make.

John Harding:

You have to say he was either absolute nonsense or of utter first significance

John Harding:

for all people, for all time.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, totally agree.

Matt Edmundson:

And that's why I think when you, when you understand about Jesus, when you

Matt Edmundson:

learn about Christ, you are faced with this point where you go either what he

Matt Edmundson:

said is true or the man is a lunatic and he can't be something in the mi,

Matt Edmundson:

he can't be a nice guy in the middle, a holy guy because a nice guy, a holy guy

Matt Edmundson:

wouldn't make the claims that he did.

Matt Edmundson:

He was either completely lying and therefore totally untrustworthy

Matt Edmundson:

or what he said was true.

Matt Edmundson:

And you kind of have to get your, get your head around that.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, d I'm right here in the comment.

Matt Edmundson:

My Jesus, uh, in fact, I can add this.

Matt Edmundson:

Let me do this.

Matt Edmundson:

I think we have the technology.

Matt Edmundson:

Yes.

Matt Edmundson:

My Jesus flipped tables and wash dirty feet.

Matt Edmundson:

He, he, uh, and, and, and that's the interesting thing about Jesus, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

He's, he does flip the tables and he does wash people's feet.

John Harding:

Well, I mean, it's interesting that when Jesus flips the

John Harding:

tables, he says, Because my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

Is just called the temple, where historically the presence of God

John Harding:

on earth dwell is called my house.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

So that's just, it's literally on every page.

John Harding:

Yeah, you can, We got in human form and of course the point was in the Old Testament,

John Harding:

hundreds of years before God promised a time when he would come in human form.

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

, it'd be Immanuel.

John Harding:

God with us.

John Harding:

So, yeah.

John Harding:

Um, and, and, and, and he had the confidence to serve.

John Harding:

And I think that's the point.

John Harding:

When you encounter Jesus, you get the confidence to serve when you know that you

John Harding:

are so loved by him and so transformed by him that you, you can do the, the things

John Harding:

that he did because you're not looking for status or recognition or fame or fortune.

John Harding:

You only want him to be famous.

John Harding:

And um, and that's what Jesus says when he washed the dirty feet.

John Harding:

He said, Uh, now that I have done that, that's what you should do to others.

Matt Edmundson:

It was the greatest, uh, lesson in leadership, wasn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

This washing of the dirty feet.

Matt Edmundson:

It was just unbelievable, uh, that, that whole side of things.

Matt Edmundson:

Now John, we have used this word transformed quite a lot, right?

Matt Edmundson:

That Jesus transforms us.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and I just wanna take a step back here.

Matt Edmundson:

And ask the question, and let's dig into it a little bit.

Matt Edmundson:

If you are not yet a Christ follower, if you are outside the church or

Matt Edmundson:

if you, you're kind of new to the Christian message, what does that mean?

Matt Edmundson:

How does God, Transform us?

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

Well

John Harding:

I think there's two ways of answering it.

John Harding:

First, and we mainly major this, so far it's, it's just an observational thing.

John Harding:

You, you were in the service I was in and speaking it this morning.

John Harding:

I was saying when I look over my shoulder over my life, over the past

John Harding:

10, 20 years, I can see that God has been working my life changing

John Harding:

me, making me more like Jesus.

John Harding:

Um, I can say that confidently because it's the Holy Spirit's work, not my work.

John Harding:

I've just cooperated and surrendered to what the Spirit wants to do,

John Harding:

and I've got a long way to go.

John Harding:

Um, so, so let me give you some concrete examples of that.

John Harding:

there are things that were fears for me.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And as I brought those to Jesus and asked for his help, he's helped me

John Harding:

to overcome those fears, things that would trouble me and make me anxious.

John Harding:

And as I've brought them to him, because he promises that, um, he

John Harding:

will bear our burdens and that he will fill us with his peace.

John Harding:

And so, so every morning I come to and say, Jesus, you are the prince of peace.

John Harding:

Um, I ask you to fill my life of your peace.

John Harding:

You promise to fill my heart and in mind with peace.

John Harding:

And, and so my life is more characterized by his peace

John Harding:

than, um, it, it, it was before.

John Harding:

And I'm growing in more and more of that.

John Harding:

And I think this, that has true so many areas of our life.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

Um, it's not just making us better people, it's things like, um.

John Harding:

I know there are things that I've done in the past that I'm ashamed about, but as

John Harding:

I've brought them to God, I've experienced his forgiveness and I've experienced

John Harding:

his cleansing, and I've experienced him freeing me from that shame and that

John Harding:

guilt and that sense of, of condemnation.

John Harding:

That's what we mean by transformation.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

That's what we mean.

John Harding:

Uh, I've gone from being a very, very self-centered, egotistical

John Harding:

person to a less self centered, less egotistical person.

John Harding:

And the Lord is, um, doing a, work in my life.

John Harding:

Let me give you a really vulnerable, um, example.

John Harding:

Um, this morning I was up at seven to do my morning devotions as I always

John Harding:

do, and I've been a little bit tired.

John Harding:

I've had huge amounts of additional stuff on.

John Harding:

I felt I had no energy and no life.

John Harding:

And I was like just listening a bit like you had that song from Greg and Martha.

John Harding:

Before I was listening to worship music, I was just saying, Jesus,

John Harding:

you are promised to be my strength.

John Harding:

You are promised to strengthen me when I am weak.

John Harding:

And I, if I'm honest, I was a little bit tearful.

John Harding:

I was like, Jesus, I feel I've got nothing to give.

John Harding:

Hmm, I've got nothing to give.

John Harding:

And I spent, you know, a bit of time, I'm a pastor, so I I, you would expect

John Harding:

me to be able to prioritize that time.

John Harding:

Not, not all church leaders do.

John Harding:

It's so important to do that.

John Harding:

Just to just, again, like James Sloan said, just to Dr.

John Harding:

Imagine it just to drink that water, just to receive.

John Harding:

And I felt by the time I'd left the house, it house, in fact I took a

John Harding:

little bit of bread and wine just to have communion with the Lord.

John Harding:

I felt that's what he said to do and I just felt I received from him.

John Harding:

And I was strengthened by him and I was able to then go out as a church leader

John Harding:

and be involved in the church service and hopefully bless lots of people

John Harding:

and encourage lots of people, not in my own strength, but in his strength.

John Harding:

So that would be perhaps a more concrete example of this invitation

John Harding:

to be transformed, uh, that the Holy Spirit wants to do in our lives.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

That's brilliant.

Matt Edmundson:

And that's, I mean, like you say, that's a real concrete one, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

And there are times when, um, I will have the same story, you know, where you don't

Matt Edmundson:

feel like you've got anything to give, but God, God usually does something right,

Matt Edmundson:

And he brings that transformation.

Matt Edmundson:

So I think there's transformation in many different ways, isn't there?

Matt Edmundson:

There's transformation where he transforms our character, he trans

Matt Edmundson:

and, and as a result, our habits change, our thought patterns change.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, you know, he, he transforms our thinking.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, you know, the Bible talks about that, doesn't it, in Romans 12,

Matt Edmundson:

about getting your mind transformed.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and that normally happens for me when I read the Bible, or, you know, listening

Matt Edmundson:

to great sermons by your good self ofs.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, but it's that, and, and that brings that sort of, and like you

Matt Edmundson:

say, you look back over years and go, Man, God, I I was not easy.

Matt Edmundson:

I'm still not, but cheap as, man, that's amazing, you know, what's gone on there?

Matt Edmundson:

And then like, there's the, the, the more instant transformation.

Matt Edmundson:

So you've, uh, feeling empty this morning.

Matt Edmundson:

We've known people, um, instantly get healed.

Matt Edmundson:

We've known people actually not get instantly healed, but we know

Matt Edmundson:

a lot of people that have done.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and there's that, that transformation there isn't there where it's sort of

Matt Edmundson:

where God just sort of gets involved.

Matt Edmundson:

So how do we, I mean, you talked, I suppose there's a clue

Matt Edmundson:

in what you've already said.

Matt Edmundson:

If I think it through John, you know, when you're talking about how this

Matt Edmundson:

morning you were just praying, you're doing your daily devotionals, is it

Matt Edmundson:

as simple as, as that to experience this transformation, uh, of, of God?

John Harding:

I mean, I'm really, So we wrote a book, didn't I?

John Harding:

Called reflex.

John Harding:

You did try.

John Harding:

I just wanna do that every time you book titles mentioned.

John Harding:

Indeed.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

Um, and I try to unpack this dynamic of transformation with

John Harding:

the Christian in detail because we rarely unpack the mechanism of.

John Harding:

One of the things I say in the book is that, um, for the Christian

John Harding:

transformation is a not automatic.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

It doesn't happen from being passive.

John Harding:

If it did, the world would be full of transformed world changing Christians.

John Harding:

Um, you've gotta engage in the process.

John Harding:

Um, and so the way I talk about it a bit like a reflex, um, input

John Harding:

stimulus and outcome response.

John Harding:

So I'd say if I poke you in the eye, you blink, you don't think about it.

John Harding:

It's automatic.

John Harding:

If the got to use on those hammers and taps you on the knee with

John Harding:

one of those a reflex hammers, your knee swings if you're alive.

John Harding:

So it's about getting the right inputs.

John Harding:

That's why the passage from John seven works so well for this.

John Harding:

Yeah, it's the right.

John Harding:

You've gotta, you've gotta drink it in to use the particular metaphor

John Harding:

that's used in today's passage.

John Harding:

So I would say, um, it's about encountering Jesus.

John Harding:

Um, we encountering through his word, just reading his word daily, not again

John Harding:

academically like James said, but reading it to really see Jesus and gaze

John Harding:

at Jesus and asking him, Jesus, what are you wanting to say to me today?

John Harding:

Uh, how you revealing yourself to me today?

John Harding:

Prayer.

John Harding:

Just talking to Jesus in more recent years, listening to Jesus.

John Harding:

So I've really tried to build the habit of, um, and discipline of silence and

John Harding:

just sitting in silence, um, for extended periods to hear Jesus speak to me.

John Harding:

Um, and again, it's not an audible voice, it's just that

John Harding:

sense of his spirit within me.

John Harding:

Um, worship.

John Harding:

But I think that, Community, whatever sense online or in person meeting with

John Harding:

others and accountability in that as well.

John Harding:

So, um, I, I would say if you wanted to experience radical transformation as

John Harding:

a Christian, probably one of the most significant things you could do today

John Harding:

is find a couple of other Christians that you trust that you can be open

John Harding:

with, that you can be vulnerable with.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

That you can talk challenges with.

John Harding:

You can pray together.

John Harding:

We were in a group, were we for years?

John Harding:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Harding:

We were, but we were very honest with each other confidentially about our

John Harding:

challenges, our struggles in life.

John Harding:

That was transformational.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

It was over and it was a drip feed effect, wasn't it?

John Harding:

It wasn't like a, an instant thing.

John Harding:

It's like you look back over a six or seven year period, you're like, Wow,

John Harding:

Matt, God has done something in my life.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

So one of the things that James said that I, I think we should

Matt Edmundson:

probably just, um, touch on real quick cause I'm aware of time.

Matt Edmundson:

He talked about how this is not self-improvement, it's

Matt Edmundson:

not like the self-help thing.

Matt Edmundson:

This is, this is not what you're talking about.

Matt Edmundson:

Is it, It's not that kind of, you know, self-help rah rah kind of transformation.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah,

John Harding:

yeah.

John Harding:

I mean, we, we, we call the message of Jesus good news.

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

, which is, you know, the word gospel comes from the word good

John Harding:

news as opposed to good advice.

John Harding:

And that is the point, isn't it?

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

and, you know, the, the Christian life will help you and impact your

John Harding:

life in all sorts of remarkable ways.

John Harding:

But fundamentally, um, it, it starts like this.

John Harding:

It starts with the message that God deeply loves you, God deeply

John Harding:

desires relationship with you.

John Harding:

Um, all of us have done wrong things, all of us.

John Harding:

Sinned to use that old fashioned word.

John Harding:

You know, Um, all of us have fallen short of God's standards and um, and so

John Harding:

God comes into our world and he becomes like us and takes on flesh and blood and

John Harding:

human fog over that flesh and blood can be broken and poured out on the cross so

John Harding:

that all of your sin and all of my sin and all of your shame, and all of my shame,

John Harding:

and all of our brokenness and all of our condemnation and all of our guilt and

John Harding:

all of our sickness is placed on Jesus.

John Harding:

On the cross is a substitute, is is a sacrificial lamb for us.

John Harding:

The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and we

John Harding:

get his life and his freedom.

John Harding:

And so really it's not about good advice or about self-help, it's about recognizing

John Harding:

our deep, profound need for Jesus.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And his forgiveness and asking for that.

John Harding:

And he comes and he cleanses us, and he makes his home in our hearts.

John Harding:

That is the Christian message.

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

, that is the good news, that we can be forgiven and set free in our

John Harding:

relationship with Jesus restored.

John Harding:

So we have good news people and we want the world to know that.

Matt Edmundson:

That's such a good saying.

Matt Edmundson:

And I, I've, I mean the, it's, it's funny isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

You know, the visualizing your goals and saying it out loud every day and you know,

Matt Edmundson:

tell the universe that's what you want.

Matt Edmundson:

This is the, the Christian message, The power of it doesn't come from

Matt Edmundson:

you, it comes from him and it comes from Christ in you, you know.

Matt Edmundson:

The God of the universe that lives inside you, which is still one of the most

Matt Edmundson:

miraculous things I've got to drink.

Matt Edmundson:

Get my head around every day.

Matt Edmundson:

Right.

Matt Edmundson:

That he makes his home in us.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, in fact, I wrote that in my notes earlier, John, as you were talking, I just

Matt Edmundson:

wrote, he makes our home in us brackets and once he moves in, he likes to give

Matt Edmundson:

it a bit of a clean closed brackets.

John Harding:

He does, he does.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

That's the point.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

We belong to him and he belongs to us.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, that's totally true.

Matt Edmundson:

So it's not self-help.

Matt Edmundson:

This is not you trying to do something in your own strength.

Matt Edmundson:

This is, this is, uh, the gospel.

Matt Edmundson:

One last thing, John, Uh, totally a lit a little bit off piece, but related

Matt Edmundson:

to what Anna said, and Dion actually put this, I've marked it down here.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, so Anna starts off her story by talking about how she went to

Matt Edmundson:

food bank and met Estelle, right?

Matt Edmundson:

Who is also one of God's choice people.

Matt Edmundson:

Right.

Matt Edmundson:

She is just such a lovely, lovely lady.

Matt Edmundson:

Yes.

Matt Edmundson:

And so Dionne wrote here, always good to hear about the power of a good welcome.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

And there's, there's something quite magical about that, isn't there?

Matt Edmundson:

I mean, you've seen it in church and I've seen it in church.

Matt Edmundson:

It actually, the, the welcome that you get when you, when you go into church, I think

Matt Edmundson:

can often make or break what you, how you feel about that whole thing, right?

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, and I just want any thoughts on that?

Matt Edmundson:

Cause I just, we've been talking about you.

Matt Edmundson:

I just thought I'd, I'd mention that.

Matt Edmundson:

Cause I thought it's such a good point.

John Harding:

Well, let me just say, first of all, um, I'm sat looking at a computer

John Harding:

screen with a camera in front of me.

John Harding:

I can see a few comments coming up.

John Harding:

There's some names on those.

John Harding:

Some names I don't know.

John Harding:

I mean, thank you for joining us.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

I mean, we, we are so blessed that you have joined us and given some of your

John Harding:

time and I hope it really blesses you.

John Harding:

And I hope you, you connect in.

John Harding:

So whatever I can say to welcome.

John Harding:

You guys, um, welcome.

John Harding:

It's just brilliant having you.

John Harding:

Part of what's going on here and being part of it.

John Harding:

I, I remember I went to a church in, um, in, in Singapore a number

John Harding:

of years ago, and, um, I was a little bit tired and weary in

John Harding:

life and we were welcomed so well.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

We were made to feel so special that it was like, like

John Harding:

the best bit of the service.

John Harding:

Mm.

John Harding:

It was like, it was, it was in itself almost like transformational, you know,

John Harding:

it's, um, xenophobia xenophilia, the, um, the, the sort of love of the stranger.

John Harding:

It's just to sort of make people feel like they're part of the family.

John Harding:

And I just think that's so much what Jesus is doing in the gospels.

John Harding:

Jesus is there's the push and the pull of Jesus for those who think they know

John Harding:

best, the arrogant, the religious, and the, there is a push, there's a challenge.

John Harding:

But for the who, whoevers for the lonely, for the outcasts, for

John Harding:

the isolated, for the excluded, there is a welcome from Jesus.

John Harding:

Yeah.

John Harding:

And uh, I suppose this is representatives on earth, his followers, we need to

John Harding:

get much more better, uh, welcoming and receiving people like, like Jesus

John Harding:

did because he was the master of it.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, I totally agree.

Matt Edmundson:

And it goes without saying, Regardless of who you are or where you are,

Matt Edmundson:

what you believe or what you don't believe, you're always welcome.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, always.

Matt Edmundson:

Welcome at Crowd.

Matt Edmundson:

Always welcome at Frontline here in Liverpool.

Matt Edmundson:

If you're in the city, we would love to see you.

Matt Edmundson:

We would love to meet you , uh, it's, um, yeah, it's one of those big

Matt Edmundson:

challenges, like you say, to always be kind of that welcoming, isn't it?

Matt Edmundson:

Oh, brilliant.

Matt Edmundson:

So, John, let me just, uh, bring up this comment here cuz Matt Crew, who

Matt Edmundson:

always reminds me of the things that I should or shouldn't say, uh, bless him.

Matt Edmundson:

He's put here in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, where's it gone here?

Matt Edmundson:

Don't forget everyone, the clocks change.

Matt Edmundson:

In fact, let me put it on, uh, the clocks change.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, next Sunday morning.

Matt Edmundson:

Join us at six pm GMT next Sunday.

Matt Edmundson:

Matt Edmundson announces this at the end of the live stream.

Matt Edmundson:

So, thank you, uh, Matt for that public service announcement announcement there.

Matt Edmundson:

John, we get another hour in bed, don't we?

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, is that We do, don't we?

Matt Edmundson:

We get another hour in bed next weekend, which is, uh, which is i, I have to be

Matt Edmundson:

honest, I just think they need to get rid of this clock changing nonsense.

Matt Edmundson:

But, you know, I don't wanna get too political here on Crowd Church, but come

Matt Edmundson:

on, government, uh, you know, fix it.

Matt Edmundson:

We don't need it.

John Harding:

Even changing your way happens on my birthday weekend.

John Harding:

So for as long as I can remember, I've had a a a, I've lost an hour.

John Harding:

I've had to get up, like we've lost an hour on my birthday and birthday weekend.

Matt Edmundson:

Oh, that's not a good, that's not a good

Matt Edmundson:

association to have, is it really Just you need to get rid of that.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, so yes, let's petition, uh, the new, whoever they are, whoever comes in power.

Matt Edmundson:

God bless you.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, I saw, actually, can we get a little bit political?

Matt Edmundson:

I saw.

Matt Edmundson:

Justin Wellby wrote on Twitter that he had been praying for Liz Truss

Matt Edmundson:

after she resigned, uh, and said, uh, you know, regardless of political

Matt Edmundson:

opinion, you've been a public servant.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, thank you for your service and, um, praying for you.

Matt Edmundson:

Well, the backlash, um, from people over that level.

Matt Edmundson:

What about praying for the poor?

Matt Edmundson:

What about this?

Matt Edmundson:

What about that?

Matt Edmundson:

And I'm like, Yeah, I don't think that means Justin's not doing that.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, no, You know, I, I think it's all in there.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, so regardless of your political stance, do be praying for England.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, at the moment in this political climate, which we now face ourselves,

John Harding:

uh, we, I'm gonna say that, and I know you and I agree on

John Harding:

this from over the years, but if you're a follower of Jesus, let's not use

John Harding:

social media to say things that are rude and offensive and argumentative

John Harding:

and disrespectful, that undermine our witness to the world, uh, about people.

John Harding:

Because whatever you think of that person or that from that political party

John Harding:

or whatever, God loves them deeply.

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

and God longs to bring his grace and his mercy to them.

John Harding:

They're just a broken human, just like you and I, who needs

John Harding:

God's love and God's grace.

John Harding:

So yeah, let's love them.

Matt Edmundson:

Let's pray for them that could not have said that better myself.

Matt Edmundson:

Absolutely.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, let's do that.

Matt Edmundson:

And actually, um, I often think when I read some of those social media comments

Matt Edmundson:

by Christians, um, it undermines their, it, it undermines the wrong phrase.

Matt Edmundson:

It shows me that their faith is in the government rather than in the God of

Matt Edmundson:

the government, if that makes sense.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and um, I think it's just in times like this, we don't have to be afraid.

Matt Edmundson:

We don't have to panic cuz Jesus is still on the throne.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and he's still,

John Harding:

whose life has been transformed by Jesus.

John Harding:

Because when you realize how real he is in your life, it gives you a

John Harding:

confidence when all the energy bills are going up and when, who knows who's

John Harding:

gonna be in government for how long and who knows what Russia's gonna do.

John Harding:

And yeah.

John Harding:

Our confidence is not in any of those things.

John Harding:

Mm-hmm.

John Harding:

, It's in the living relationship that we have withJjesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah, totally.

Matt Edmundson:

Totally.

Matt Edmundson:

And that's the hope we have one of the many, uh, uh, that we can hold

Matt Edmundson:

onto in this political crazy time.

Matt Edmundson:

Yes, I'm keen.

Matt Edmundson:

Yes, I'm interested.

Matt Edmundson:

Yes, I care.

Matt Edmundson:

But fundamentally my hope is built on him.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, and he's the anchor of my soul.

Matt Edmundson:

So, uh, we can trust in that.

Matt Edmundson:

But obviously, You know, pray for our government and, um, and our leaders at

Matt Edmundson:

this time, and that Gods will be done in terms of, you know, what happens next.

Matt Edmundson:

Really?

Matt Edmundson:

England needs a little bit of, uh, That's very true.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, Dion, I'm just, sorry.

Matt Edmundson:

Glance over at YouTube.

Matt Edmundson:

Neither trust nor Boris nor Richie, I suppose, uh, nor Penny Morton

Matt Edmundson:

or any of the other consent to contends, uh, have the power to

Matt Edmundson:

stop the plans or power of Jesus.

Matt Edmundson:

Amen.

Matt Edmundson:

Very true.

Matt Edmundson:

John, thank you so much for joining us, buddy.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, it's been great to see you, uh, always love hosting with you.

Matt Edmundson:

Always love conversation street.

Matt Edmundson:

Yeah.

Matt Edmundson:

I always love throwing you the tricky questions.

Matt Edmundson:

Cause you, you quite happily answer them.

Matt Edmundson:

If you ask some other people, they tend to throw 'em back at you.

Matt Edmundson:

And I'm just like, No, no.

Matt Edmundson:

I'm just gonna give to on these.

Matt Edmundson:

That's fine.

John Harding:

I didn't even know that was an option.

John Harding:

Next time,

Matt Edmundson:

it's for you mate.

Matt Edmundson:

It's not.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, next week we have Esther Richards speaking, talk about transformation.

Matt Edmundson:

Esther has a phenomenal story, which is on the What's the Story podcast, how God

Matt Edmundson:

brought her through insane depression, um, and almost on the verge of suicide.

Matt Edmundson:

And if you want to hear that story, it's on What's the Story.

Matt Edmundson:

It's the very first one.

Matt Edmundson:

Anna Kettle and Dan Orange will be hosting.

Matt Edmundson:

I'll be back in a couple of weeks with Phil Watson, uh,

Matt Edmundson:

which will just be hysterical.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, just the way it's gonna be, uh, but brilliant at the

Matt Edmundson:

same time cuz that's just Phil.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, so we are gonna end Crowd Church right there.

Matt Edmundson:

Do, come join us next week, 6:00 PM if you would like to join in our weekly, uh, Live

Matt Edmundson:

Weekly Life is not a weekly, uh, midweek prayer meeting is what I'm trying to say.

Matt Edmundson:

If you'd like to come join us on Zoom midweek in our community group slash

Matt Edmundson:

prayer meeting slash get together slash whatever's gonna happen happens.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, we would love to see you.

Matt Edmundson:

Just get in touch with us.

Matt Edmundson:

We will send you the details for that.

Matt Edmundson:

It was great.

Matt Edmundson:

Miriam joined us this week, so, uh, great to see Miriam.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, thank you so much, uh, as John said for joining us.

Matt Edmundson:

Thanks for giving up your time and joining the comment.

Matt Edmundson:

It's good to see so many people in the comments.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, so Sarah, uh, no worries, thanks.

Matt Edmundson:

She says, thanks for such a great stream.

Matt Edmundson:

Um, Matt Crew says, Thanks to the Ancient ones for hosting tonight.

Matt Edmundson:

I think he's talking about you, John.

Matt Edmundson:

Brilliant.

Matt Edmundson:

God bless you.

Matt Edmundson:

Everyone.

Matt Edmundson:

Have a fantastic week.

Matt Edmundson:

Uh, we'll be back again next week, uh, from John and myself.

Matt Edmundson:

God bless you, everyone.

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