In this discourse, we engage with the esteemed fashion photographer Ben Watts, whose illustrious career spans continents and genres. The salient point of our conversation revolves around the formative experiences that shaped Ben's artistic vision, including his significant transition from various odd jobs to a burgeoning photography career, which he attributes to a combination of serendipity and relentless determination. We delve into his early influences, particularly the vibrant Australian culture that fostered his optimism and creativity, which continue to resonate in his work today. Furthermore, we examine the evolution of his artistic approach through collaborations and the importance of adaptability in a rapidly changing industry. Throughout our dialogue, Ben's insights illuminate the intrinsic value of perseverance and the pursuit of one’s passion, serving as a compelling testament to the transformative power of art. A profound exploration into the life and career trajectory of renowned fashion photographer Ben Watts unfolds as he recounts his formative years and the experiences that shaped his artistic vision. Born in England and raised in Australia, Watts articulates the pivotal moments that ignited his passion for photography, particularly during his college years in Sydney. He reflects on the eclectic mix of jobs he undertook, from delivering newspapers to working in fast food, which provided a diverse backdrop against which his creativity flourished. Critical to his development was a Scottish lecturer who challenged him to consider photography as a form of visual communication, prompting Watts to embrace the medium with fervor. This academic environment served as a launchpad for his burgeoning career, allowing him to experiment with various styles and techniques before delving into the professional realm. By integrating his unique perspective as an outsider into the Australian landscape, Watts captures an optimism that resonates profoundly in his work, underscoring the significance of narrative in visual storytelling.

Takeaways:

1. The podcast features an in-depth conversation with Ben Watts, a renowned fashion photographer.
2. Ben Watts discusses his early experiences in Australia and how they influenced his photography career.
3. He emphasizes the importance of staying focused and actively pursuing one's passion in photography.
4. The discussion touches on the evolution of the creative process in photography in the modern digital age.

Links referenced in this episode:

1. vibe.com
2. mademoiselle.com
3. nike.com
4. virgin.com
5. montauk.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

1. Nordstrom
2. McDonald's
3. Nike
4. Vibe
5. Mademoiselle
6. Australian Vogue
7. Virgin Records
8. Face magazine

Welcome to an audience at 8.

My name's Gary Spencer and on this week's show I have fashion photographer Ben Watts.

I feel like I've known you for quite a long time.

Was that it?

Yeah, on that mountain during Nordstrom.

But I'm never really sure whether we have these, like, soundbite conversations.

You were born in Australia or England?

I was born in England and I lived there to the age of 16.

Just 16 or just before 16.

I worked on.

So usually in Australia till you, like, your mid-20s?

I was there, yes.

No, not mid.

Yeah, mid-20s.

I went back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

And what kind of.

What kind of jobs were you doing then, photographically?

I mean, I was odd jobbing, doing every job, whether it's delivering milk, delivering newspapers, working at McDonald's.

I always say that I got my start in fast food.

I was probably delivering newspapers before I was delivering newspapers in England.

Worked in a hotel, et cetera, as a porter.

But college is where, when I went to college, I got interested in photography and then from there I started doing jobs before I'd even graduated.

I was sort of semi professional.

So you was always shooting?

Yeah, I was shooting as a hobbyist, as part of the.

The course.

It was an elective, but I tackled everything through a photographic sort of approach.

And I was actually reminded by one of the lecturers, those lecturers, and she's a great woman, a Scottish woman, she said, ben, this is a visual communication degree, not a photography degree.

But my answer to that was then, why is photography part of it?

And surely if it's visual communication that I choose, the language which I wish to visually communicate, and that's clearly photography.

Looking back on it, it's always good to get poked and tempted and provoked because it will sort of make you think and it'll make you answer, you know.

And so I was happy that she.

She did.

That irritated me at the time.

I remember it vividly.

But looking back or weeks later, I thought, yeah, good, because she provoked me and I gave her a suitable answer in my eyes.

And it certainly worked out.

I did well at college.

I've worked.

I was working on professionally while I was there, using the college studio, using all the resources.

Was that in Australia?

Yeah, in Sydney.

And I really think that that was a great Birthing place for me to sort of launch my career.

And also the college that I went to, you know, regardless of whether I was.

It was a photography degree or not, I couldn't have thought, imagine better circumstances which to springboard a photographic career.

Right.

There's probably more opportunity, right.

As well for you to get out and shoot more there.

I mean, you create your own opportunities.

There's opportunities everywhere.

It's what you make of the landscape and how you navigate through it and react to it.

But certainly there was.

And that's where you got your first buzz for doing outdoor and lifestyle.

My early photography definitely captured, and it still does, the Australian optimism.

They're optimistic thinkers and unafraid.

And that certainly one of my lecturers said to me goes, Ben, you're different from people here because you don't come from here.

So you see things differently.

And I did and I saw the information that was coming to me and I went through it and I edited it and I took out the good parts.

And that is a very strong key part of the Australian Persona.

They even have a saying, yeah, have a go, mate, have a go, mate, have a go, have a go.

That's always been.

I think your attitude.

One of your major strengths is your positivity and wanting to have a go at stuff.

Thanks for saying that.

No, it's for sure.

Connection with Wales as well.

Right?

Yeah.

I grew up part of.

I spent.

I lived with my grandparents after our father died and we went.

Moved up there my.

And lived to my mum because my mum was very young, so she got a second wind to the.

She met my stepfather, she rejoined the workforce and sort of.

It was just, they.

They took it on and.

And it was good, you know, and I went to.

It was more than Wales.

It was deep north Wales up on the island of Anglesey.

And that again, was an experience.

It was tough.

You know, people don't realize this unless you're there and you only have to come not only from another country in the UK or another town.

And there's a definite different way to address you.

And that might be discriminative and that might be make people's choices.

That might be like, why can't I get on the football team?

I'm playing better than half these guys on it.

Why don't.

Because I'm not Welsh.

They're putting Welsh people on their team and I'm like, you know what?

I still go to the school, I need to be on that.

I should be.

This guy shouldn't be there, you know, and but that only made me want to be, to be, to succeed more, you know.

But these are all subliminal messages you're getting in your head.

They are.

You notice it.

You notice it.

You don't.

Yeah, you're different from them and they see that as something, as a dislikable thing to a degree.

But then later, when I returned, I was welcomed so, so much by everybody and I thought, hey, man.

Well, this is very different from when I arrived.

So it's not.

You don't get walk into anywhere and command respect.

For sure.

Of course you command it.

You might command it through fear.

People will hate you behind your back and they'll make things worse for you.

What would you say was your big creative influences when you were younger?

What was stimulating your creativity when you were younger?

You know what, my mum always, first of all, music and a lot of that in Wales.

The fact it was back then, it was about the sort of like Northern Soul and the Wigan Casino.

And I noticed that the dress code, the baggy, the baggies and the flares and the leather trench coats and bob haircut and, you know, the patches on the bags, the Adidas travel bag and stuff.

And I thought, this is why all these people dressing like that.

And then I heard the music and I'm like, this is great.

It's all old Motown stacks, rare, rare American music, you know, that didn't necessarily break it in the us, but it was given a second life in the north of England.

And the north of Wales is parallel.

Manchester and the whole vibe.

Yeah, yeah.

So they were very much part of transitional that.

Yeah, yeah.

And it was a lifestyle and so the fashion, the music.

Then my mum was young and she still had always like the Face magazine, Idaho magazine.

That was later when I became, you know, I'd already addressed it.

I got into the mod culture.

I had a motor scooter thing.

I was.

Then I sort of embraced sort of like soul and scar.

So you're in London at this time now.

I moved back to London and one of a good friend of mine was lodging at my mum's home and he was a model and he was into music and I idolized it.

And I'd go around on this scooter, you know, and I wanted my own scooter and I dressed apart and I was a rude boy, then I was a mod.

And then I went to Australia.

Then we moved to Australia and they had a mod scene there and I was just fully entrenched in that.

It was just, you know, these great times.

It Was all.

And these cults and these fashion cults are sort of largely music and, and, and fashion is part of it.

Of course you're going to get into a creative way of thinking.

You're around a lot of people that are really into it, you know, it's not just.

This isn't just whimsical.

It is a way of life.

We live for the weekends and we.

It was all about it.

Having the right scooter.

I had my scooter all chromed out, spent.

Even at the age, you know, I was.

I'd have been like 18 or something or maybe even younger.

I was getting my shirts tailor made at a.

Just shit like that.

It made me proud.

And people don't think about.

That's no small feat.

You know, talking like before I'm even 21.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

I was like riding around as soon as I could legally be licensed and I was riding it illegally before that.

I was on my scooter riding around.

I used to ride to school on it, you know.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Nobody had tried.

They were all on the bus.

They had no idea.

They're not in pubs.

I was in pubs before.

Right, right, right.

I was going in pubs by the age of 14.

So your first excursion to America, was it New York?

Hang on.

Yes, it was when I was very young.

I came with my mum.

Okay.

But I actually plant a seed for you.

What did that plant the seed for you?

Even then it freaked me out because it was just so noisy.

I remember.

And coming from like a small village in Kent, you know, on the commuter belt outside London, it was like, whoa, New York's something different.

Even now when you get outside of the airport, it's not like London.

It's not like, come on, all these people making all these comparisons.

Get over yourself.

Just you come to New York, put a blindfold over your face and just listen and tell me you get the same smell.

It, listen to it.

Tell me that your senses aren't more overloaded than they are in any other city in the world, you know, Western city, I'm sure.

No, I, I, I, you know when people have asked me about New York and I say, well, you got to understand that when you're growing up in England and you, and you're my age, you have fed on a black and white T. But New York is the biggest, right?

And it is.

And there's Kojak and it's all those things.

Yeah, yeah, Kojak.

So that, you know, if you got the chance, you had to take that Chance, no matter what came of it.

Yeah.

It's just something that happens, I think, to us in the uk, right?

We're just fed that.

Everything's bigger and better and it's faster and it's just an attraction, but it.

Is, it really is.

And that's why sometimes I get like, dude, don't even come at me with this comparison.

Because it's just.

It's really futile.

I appreciate it.

You should have pride if.

Whatever city you come from, but don't try and enter into a competition about which.

Because it's not.

It isn't.

Great music out the uk.

Great.

Amazing.

All the good stuff, all the culture, everything.

But it's not the same as New York.

Yes.

Nothing is the same as New York.

Before you.

Before you went into photography full time, what job was you doing then, Ben?

Before I got into photography full time?

Well, I was working in nightclubs.

Was you really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was.

I was working on the door of nightclubs, all the trendy ones.

And that was a gateway.

Was that in Sydney or London?

Yes, Sydney.

And it opened so many doors and.

Because, you know, I did the Hippodrome, right?

Oh, really?

I remember going to the Hippodrome.

Yeah.

That's funny.

And did you.

People don't realize that when you do a door of a nightclub, you find out a lot about people, right?

Like, you talk to everybody and you find out different personalities and who's going to be aggressive and who's not going to be.

You just find out a lot.

Well, you know how to hand, you know.

Yeah.

You become like a sort of.

I hate, like a politician in one way or another.

But you.

What you.

What I did is like, I worked in all the good places, like around Sydney.

And I'm not like blowing my own trumpets.

It's the fact I was getting arsed to work in them, you know, and we knew the right crowd to let in and I knew who was who and who wasn't.

And I'm not doing this for the rest of my life.

You know, the pay is not bad.

And you did have a lot of power.

And it did go to my ego and stuff.

Cause back then we had more power than the DJs and stuff.

They were just playing, you know, that was my club.

They were.

You know what I mean?

Like, they were my background, those guys.

I had first dibs because I'm out the front.

So, you know, like, that was just, like.

It was just amazing.

There's great stories of doing doors, there's all sorts of Angles.

Oh, my God.

You could make a whole sort of reality show on the stuff that went down.

If, you know, we'd have like, massive crowd and people don't queue as well.

That's an English thing.

They don't queue.

Everyone masses the door like this, you know, like so and so.

So you have to pick people out and then you make, you know, a route for them to come through or call them through, you know, and if you step up and you're not called through, then you definitely.

Yeah, that's all changed nowadays.

I mean, that was my gig at the Hippodrome and be like that person.

That person.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That's all changed now, right?

People don't.

They don't stand for that anymore.

But back in the day.

No, they do, but they didn't really.

Then everyone would get mouthy and come with this and come with that.

Some of the crap that you listen to.

And then people bribe you and that's okay too.

But why'd you let him in?

And I shut up, man.

He gave me $100.

Here's 20.

Now I want 50.

And they give you like 200.

Until I tell them that they give it less and they give it because otherwise they start screaming and crying.

So it's just.

Anyway, I let people that worked in the fashion industry in, right?

And then I called them and got their phone numbers.

Yeah.

And they did help me out, you know.

You started to shoot.

Yes.

And one of my other mates was also aspiring and stuff.

I think he was like, aspiring director and stuff.

And he's just such a.

He wouldn't even let his own mum in the club kind of guy, you know?

And he would be like, no.

And like, john, you're gonna be doing this job for the rest of your life, man.

Get with it.

Use you only have this opportunity.

What was the turning point for you where you thought, you know what, I could really make a go at this photography?

Well, just between that doing it at college and using the thing, because I was at college still while I was working on the door.

And that helped pay for accommodations and stuff.

And then I started getting jobs.

And then I would be working at night and I'd be working till, like, sometimes I wouldn't get home till five in the morning.

And then I'd have to be on set at like 8.

And it was just small things.

It was like this one guy used to come down the club a lot.

He ended up having a massive publishing company.

He actually ended up owning face and stuff.

And you know, and he's like, ben.

Yeah, come down.

And then they'd always be really rude.

You go in there and they'd be like, oh, one of his friends, you know, because they knew that he liked to go out and hang out.

But he was actually the owner of the whole publishing group.

But then they saw my work and they're like, no, this is pretty decent.

So we get to sort of appease the big boss, right?

And it's actually of value to us.

It's not just some clown, you know, I just got to take this more professionally.

I can't be like, I can't.

People gonna think that I'm just, like, working on the doors.

This is Australian, shooting and shooting.

And then I need to go.

I need to step back away from this and.

And get full time into photography.

And part of my ego, like, I still love the nightlife and stuff.

So I'm like, I'm sad to let this go, you know, because I had a real camaraderie and friendship with a lot of people worked in that world, and I wanted.

I didn't want to lose that touch.

But eventually it was all good, you know, and then I went over to the UK and I sort of had done what I could do in Australia.

I could have stayed and done.

But how long was it going to go on for?

Like, it was quite a rapid rise, which could mean for a rapid descent.

So I'm like, I gotta.

Now I've grown my wings, I gotta fly, you know, because if I don't, I'll be here, which isn't a bad thing.

But I wanted to go, you know, and I was still young, and I remember speaking with one, someone I consider a mentor that I did a college project on, this photographer, Grant Matthews.

There's a lot of great photographers there.

Graham Shearer, Grant Matthews.

They were the kings.

And I used to look at their pictures.

And I spoke to Grant and he was pretty friendly at first.

He's kind of a bit standoffish.

But, you know, he respected my curiosity and he shared.

He goes, ben, just go there.

You're younger and you're willing.

My tolerance of things as a younger person, when you're younger, you have a lot of tolerance.

If I had to sleep on a couch, that wasn't going to bother me.

If I had to be, you know, I was broke.

That didn't bother me.

My lifestyle in Australia was good, but if I had to set back my lifestyle in order to fulfill my dreams, I was there.

I was ready for it, you know, and if I had to go from shooting, like, a cover of Australian Vogue to shooting a postage stamp picture in Mademoiselle.

That was all good with me.

It was just as long as I was evolving.

Yeah, yeah.

Constantly moving and participating in my profession of choice.

Yes, that was fine.

And you have to do that sometimes.

You gotta go through these, like, what I call pain barriers.

And that might.

My description of this might seem futile, but you'll be surprised once people get comfortable, how difficult it is to then come out of the comfort zone and go back into the pits.

And that's something.

I mean, I've never really had a problem with it if I've got some.

I always say, sometimes I roll big and sometimes I roll small, but it don't matter as long as I'm rolling.

Yeah, but I think that attitude you have, I think that's made you just very likable within the business, you know, because you.

You do stay humble.

And you.

And you.

And you've.

You've done some really great work.

When you.

When you started off, who were your major photographic influences?

Well, first of all, one of the reasons I came to New York was Vibe magazine.

I wanted to work.

She was shooting a lot of urban stuff.

Yeah, I did.

But the Vibe was like the.

What we say, like the urban Vogue.

It was just an incredible publication.

It was breakout publication using great talent.

And the people that worked there were just really, you know, they were very talented people.

It was.

It was just an amazing publication to be working for back in the 90s and just to be around and then see where these people went onto.

And George Pitts, who was the photo editor there at the time, gave me.

I pestered the hell out of that guy, you know, like, he's not with us anymore, bless his soul.

But he gave me a break, you know, I was, you know, borderline annoying.

I kept calling him.

Back then, it was voicemail.

I kept leaving messages, kind of timed it so it wasn't like three a day.

Kind of like we remember Rupert Pupkin in the King of Comedy, how he just kept calling and then he was showed up and camped out.

That was you?

Yeah, it was kind of a bit like he camped out in the lobby waiting to see.

I didn't do that, but that's what not to do.

But I certainly was on that kind of enthusiasm level where I kept calling.

And he said to me, when I finally got through, because back then that everyone's phone number was on the master head of the magazine.

So it wasn't hard.

You know, you took Interest and because you've been calling me a lot.

And I was like, yeah, I have.

And I really think if I could get some time, if, respectfully, if you had a moment and I could come in, I think you'd agree it's worth your while.

And he goes, well, you know, who you been working for?

I said, sky Magazine.

He said, I'm not a fan.

And I said, I stopped.

I was like, honestly, I'm not either.

But the assignment I had was the submission I made was something of personal interest.

And that is why I took the job on.

And I'm proud of the pictures.

It's the pictures that I'm proud of.

And he's like, listen, Thursday, 3:00pm Come in.

I'm glad you pestered me and came down there.

I'm glad you were persistent.

He said, I'm glad you're persistent because there is a.

There is work for you here at Vibe.

And I think it was Ditto.

He was the art director.

He came over and I met them and Graham Derek, Derek Proko, he was like, London guy.

He was working at the Face magazine and got on so well with him and it was just.

We just fell and it slowly started coming to place from there.

Yeah, yeah.

Your.

Your book, is it Big Up?

That is based on.

Based on that.

Right.

It was my scrapbook kind of stuff.

And that's what I showed to George.

And he was, you know, he was very receptive of it.

And that's why I say, if people come at you asking for stuff and asking for time, if you have time and it doesn't cost you anything, then just do it.

It's not a life.

It's not a deficit.

It's not a deficit I can't stand.

I've been around so many people.

I've watched them.

They've been so protective of their time and so protective of.

It's like, what are you protecting?

You're just being selfish.

You're not protecting anything.

This person wants nothing more than just a simple.

It's not taking anything, it's costing you nothing.

It's not taking anything away from you, but it means a lot to them.

Again, that goes back into your general attitude of people.

Yeah, it does.

But around a lot of people that I do see do play these tunes.

And it's very broad.

The people you surround yourself with is very broad.

And I think that really helps in your influence, in your work as well.

Right.

Would you.

Would you describe yourself as a lifestyle photographer?

Yes.

Or a fashion photographer?

I'm a lifestyle and Fashion photographer.

I certainly wouldn't say.

I'm only one or the other.

I wouldn't.

I have a certain way of shooting fashion and some sort of sophisticates might like to sort of say, well, you're not fashion.

And I'll say, you will?

Then tell me what fashion is.

Because I. I'm.

I'm fashion to a T, man.

I'm the.

One of the most fashionable people out there.

Without trying.

Yes.

You know.

Yes.

So don't come at me with any rules.

You're on that cutting edge all the.

Time, but anyone that cavaliers or something or whatever, you better have it, be able to back it up.

I'd never do that.

Yeah, sure.

What was the job for you which you felt changed everything for you that took you somewhere else that you thought, wow, I could really push on from here?

Yeah, well, that would be early days, early doors in.

In Australia, where Nancy Pilcher, Lincoln's Pilcher's mother.

Yeah, she gave me a break at Australia Vogue and her.

And Kathy, I've forgotten her second name, she was the art director.

But basically Nancy was making the decision.

She's like, talk about optimism.

And just, you know, and forever.

They did use Graham and Grant, you know, and they gave me this fashion story and I really, you know, I was still.

Had only just departed from the nightlife world, but I brought in a lot of people, interesting people from that world, and it really made some pictures that were different from what they were used, but still good, still going in that Australian, optimistic, sort of healthy, you know, fun sort of approach.

And it was good.

It was standout work.

And I. I received a lot of sort of, you know, positive comments and a lot of credibility, like creative credibility from doing that and doing a good job of it.

And in fact, I got another assignment from them.

They started using me regularly.

If I'd done a bad job, it would never have run and then I would never have been called again, you know.

But I got called in again and Nancy went into the office.

She goes, ben, come into the office.

I went into the office.

She goes, we got a letter.

We never get letters.

We got mail saying how.

Because back then there was no email and stuff saying, what a refreshing story.

And great.

She goes, did you write that?

And, you know, I thought, you know what?

No, I didn't.

But I'd like to take credibility because had I even thought of that?

I'm not beyond that.

I would go in, I would put like 20 letters in the mail from different, you know, postcodes.

I'd have spent my week driving around, mailing letters.

But honestly, something like that gone right over my head.

I think you market yourself very well.

Yeah, but there's a lot of guerrilla marketing you can do that's off.

Off boundaries and stuff.

And it does make a good impact, and I'm certainly not above it.

When my first book came out, like, Virgin Records was a big place for, like, music.

Was the first one called Big Up.

Yeah.

And I went in every one of them, and a lot of time it was.

But I made sure my book was right at the entrance.

And if I had to physically move it, then I was doing that.

I was walking around with big things and no one asked me anything.

So I come to some store people, attendants would be, like, looking at me.

But I mean, if you walk with confidence and authority, no one's going to question it.

They might have thought that I was a regional manager or something that wasn't stopping.

I just went in there, put my book right at the front, and.

And, I mean, I have no evidence that it helped it at all.

But I can tell you what, it certainly didn't harm it.

So you're in New York, you're doing the stuff for Vibe.

Working with Mademoiselle magazine, trying to get some advertising campaigns.

What was your first big advertising campaign where you thought it was big?

I was working with Nike.

Okay.

And then we went around the world, and it was bloody great.

We were going out to Oregon and.

And it was like a new part of America that I could bring in every Nike.

Right.

Because it was really good.

And I got on really well with the people that work there.

I ended up working with them a lot.

Going to Brazil, going to China, going to Taiwan, went to London, went to the Den.

Photograph Casey Keller.

Oh, right.

Okay, Greg.

That's gritty over there for sure.

One of the groundsmen tried to give me some aggro, and I'm like, dude.

They do at Millwall.

Shut up.

That's just the way it is.

No, I was kicking the ball about.

He goes, do I have to?

I'm like, do you have to?

I'm like, I don't.

But it's really none of your concern either way.

We went to Brazil training.

Training day, and they're on the pitch training.

A lot of fans show up for training, you know, and, And.

And.

And Ronaldo.

Not.

Not the Ronaldo.

R7.

No, the other one.

What do they call him?

L. I don't know.

But he can play too.

Oh, my God.

He.

I've.

I've got pictures of me playing football with him.

Gianninio was in it.

A couple of the guys that were playing with them, I think they were playing with Tottenham or.

I'm trying to think Giovanni.

There was a lot.

A couple of guys were playing in the Premier League anyway, so, you know, I can't speak Portuguese.

I was in the same hotel as them.

They see me in the common area in the rec room and stuff, playing table tennis.

I'd played a couple of games with them, so I was sort of in favor.

They're like, oh yeah, the gringo is this, you know, me and my assistant and stuff.

I'm like, nah.

I went up and, you know, started hassling them, taking pictures after the scrimmage at the end.

So they stayed on the pitch because they're joking around.

We're like throwing water around, having a laugh.

But it was too much for the fans, man.

They can't.

Because usually you come out, you train, you're not static, you're moving, you're moving, you're moving and then you're off the pitch, you know, 45 minutes, you know, an hour and a half, you're off the pitch.

And the fans, they don't get time to think or whatever.

They just watch.

I keep taking pictures and stuff because I'm loving it.

And then the chaos, I'm loving it.

You got some good stuff doing?

I did.

I gotta find those negs.

But then the next thing I know, my tripod's gone and one of them's sort of like running like he had, like he'd got.

Been awarded the World cup, like ah, like this or anything.

But my assistant ran face full face and tackled him down and got.

Grabbed him back like ah, got it back, you bastard.

Great times.

And then Greg ended up putting me in.

What year is this in his book?

What year is this?

Not 98, maybe 97.

When did you get to.

When did you decide to.

Like this is it New York.

This is where I'm going to base myself.

95.

95, yeah.

I came here to be here.

No, I didn't come to New York to go live in Boston.

These were crazy times.

And Greg was.

He was running the soccer team.

He ended up being the global sort of marketing CEO and he included me in his book, you know, and the Emotion of Design.

It's a top seller.

Anyways, he goes around the country doing forums and the guys like had stacks of experience.

He's just incredible at what he does.

But they're good times, you know, talk, you know, he was coming up then too.

And I got on with the women's soccer team and.

And I was shooting the U. S. Men's soccer team.

We're talking about the.

The.

The women's one was the one that Mia Han was on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Brandon.

They won the world cup.

Yeah, they did.

It was a good side.

And I had, like.

I'd like to think I had a pretty sort of inside relationship with them.

You know, when you get a job come in.

Do you.

Does the creative process start mulling around in your mind or do you wait and speak to the creative director?

Now it's very much a collaboration and.

And sometimes they're asking for mood boards and a treatment.

Back then, it was more, I.

You'd think was a naive approach, but it wasn't because they know how to match personalities.

And it's sort of like when you curate a party or a dinner party, that's how you'd create a photo team.

Now sometimes they sort of want these kind of like, project.

They'll give you a project before, and that's fine.

It is definitely.

The politics are more prevalent and you have to be able to collaborate because there's a lot of creative thinkers on set, you know, but it's always.

There's one, you know, when you get on an aircraft, there's one pilot that's flying it with the responsibility of you arriving on time and getting to your destination.

And creatively, that's a metaphor for, you know, you're responsible.

And I guess that a lot of.

Responsibility in your hands.

And I guess with the rise of digital, it's become.

I mean, because back in the day when the photographer said he's got it, then he's got it, and everybody trusted.

On set that he'll tell you, take a few more roles, you know, the people at next.

It always.

Pat would always say that, and I was more than happy to say that.

But to do that, everything gets screwed.

Yeah, they see it.

No, they see it there.

And that's good because it means that you're walking, you're going home that night knowing there's no element of surprise.

Because everyone has agreed that.

Yeah.

And sometimes it does sort of homogenize the creative process a little bit.

There's a yin and yang in everything, isn't there?

But largely it's an insurance policy when you're going away.

But now the travel isn't as much because every.

It's just the business is changing more rapidly than it ever has done at present, you know, and it's not going to slow Down.

That's just the way it is.

Are there still jobs out there that secretly, you think you know what I'd really like to shoot?

Yeah.

I mean, there's every job there is and that's in my wheelhouse.

I would like to be considered for.

Yes, of course.

There's nothing.

No job is.

Is too big or no job is too small.

I just like to be creatively active and contributing and relevant in my business.

I was thinking the other day, there's different friends of mine that have been in and around Keith Richards and apparently he's always got a guitar in each one of his rooms and he's never without his guitar.

And I was thinking about you in that.

Socially, wherever you are, you've always got your camera with you and you're always shooting.

You know, it's not.

It's not just a job to you, you know, that is.

No, it's more because you're always practicing your trade.

And honestly, it's also a way of removing yourself from social engagement and picking the engagement of choice, you know, which is the camera.

It can be used.

It can be a disguise.

So use it as a barrier sometimes.

Yeah.

Or a disguise to.

But it's always with a positive outcome.

Interesting.

It's always with a positive outcome.

It's not a prop and it's not because I don't want to engage.

It's because I want, you know, going back to working in nightclubs, I.

All my work was done outside and at the entrance.

If I went inside, I didn't know what to do with myself.

I'd.

I hated being inside.

Everything was outside.

It was about people getting in and the people, the conversations I'd have there and amongst other people in my business.

Just like with photography, my conversation in a social environment a lot of time is about me taking pictures and stuff.

It's not.

If we had to sit down and have a heart to heart and stuff, I could be.

I'd feel very uncomfortable and stuff, probably.

Yes, yes, I get that.

So you have three books, right?

Three books out.

Was it Big Up?

What's the other?

What the other one's called Leakshot.

And two editions of Big up came out, which was good.

The hard copies good.

It's a collectors.

But the Big Up.

And then.

And then I did another one, Montauk Dreaming, that's more about Montauk.

That as it ages, it becomes more relevant because it's about sort of early pictures and a lot of these establishments have changed and stuff.

And people who have been around Montauk will remember them, you know.

Well, I think you're solely responsible for the rising Montauk person.

I mean, you're like the mayor of Montauk, then.

Come on.

No, there's a lot of people.

I would never.

Never to use that word, cavalier again as being something.

Andy Warhol was out there, right?

Yeah, he was out there.

With what sort of frequency?

See, I don't know.

The Stones went occasionally, perhaps just once.

I don't know.

I'm not there holding roll call, you know, and I have never been.

Yeah, that's right.

But there's a lot of people that have been out there, that are born out there, that live out there.

So for someone like myself to announce myself as mayor would be preposterous, and it would infuriate and irritate people.

So I never do that.

But what I can say is I've definitely become part of its fabric, and I'm definitely sort of aware of a lot of things.

Not everything.

Yes.

And I've definitely changed my outlook on things that perhaps I liked and didn't like.

And, you know, for a while, I was.

I did aggravate a lot of people within that community and.

And I didn't get it, but now I do, and I understand and I don't regret it.

I think you're being very humble.

Yeah, well, I'd like to think so.

I'd like to think that the majority would agree with that.

If you could go back, would there be anything you would have changed or would you have done exactly the same to end up where you are today?

I don't know.

You know what?

There are some things that, you know, as far as sort of taking my foot off the gas to enjoy myself.

But if you don't, then you never will.

So it's a weird thing to play because sometimes people who aren't necessarily popular and don't have much social life, and they don't have that to distract them, supersede, because they don't.

They're not invited to the party.

Yes.

Yes.

They don't stay at the party.

Perhaps that I would like, maybe.

But if I.

But I always wanted to, you know, because I wasn't at first, and I never did.

And then when I did, I'm like, you know what?

I don't mind this, and I used it for my benefit and I didn't stay too long.

But I think sometimes, perhaps if I put.

Put more effort in and been less about sort of going out to these.

But honestly, probably not.

It's minor stuff.

I mean, there's many things that I feel like I've fallen short of, but that's just what it is, you know, no regrets.

And sure, things could be better, but they could also be worse.

If you could give any young aspiring photographer any advice, what would that be?

Or is there any particular.

One piece of advice?

My advice would be stay.

Stay focused and keep doing.

Keep moving, stay active.

Don't get distracted.

Don't think that there's, for a moment, there's any shortcuts.

Believe in what you're doing, Pick what it is that you enjoy doing most and you believe in most, you yourself, and continually move in that direction.

Don't be distracted.

Don't think that you can receive sort of advice from social media or advice from even books, you know, it's important to read.

The best advice you can give is you give it yourself by continually acting and moving and participating in that profession.

And you will slowly move towards your goals.

As long as you're moving closer and closer towards it, you're still gaining traction and you're still in there with the possibility of reaching that goal.

Because I've just seen too many people because it hasn't happened quick enough or because they think it's happened too quick, but it hasn't.

They didn't.

They got a full start and then they arrived thinking they'd finished, but they hadn't.

It was just.

It was an illusion and they fell short and, you know, dropped out.

That happens, man.

It happens.

But if you keep going forward and keep trying, it's honestly, it's the way.

It's not about, you know, making vision boards, it's about doing it great.

Just do it.

That's a great way to end.

Ben, thank you, mate.

Really appreciate you being on.

Thank you.

Cheers.