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(E17) David Melia: consciously still
Episode 17 • 15th April 2024 • Leaders with impact • Lee Griffith
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The NHS is one of those institutions that practically everyone (in the UK anyway) will have come into contact with in one way or another. We might read the headlines, listen to the political speeches or hear about our friends and families' experience. But what is it like to work and lead in the NHS - particularly in the current climate?

In this episode I'm chatting to David Melia, Chief Nursing Officer at Liverpool University Hospital Foundation Trust. We talk about:

  • bringing your whole self into your role
  • what shaped David and how he is a leader now
  • what a chief nurse does
  • transitioning from specialist to all-round organisational representative
  • Board behaviours
  • creating psychological safety
  • preparing future executives for the realities of the role
  • really learning about what's happening in your organisation
  • Banarama inspiration "It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it"
  • how it feels to lead amongst constant challenge, change and pressure
  • allyship, equity and inclusion
  • Scouse school
  • looking after yourself and not taking on the emotion of a role
  • advice for aspiring leaders.

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

Get in touch

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I’ll be back with the next episode in two weeks so in the meantime remember to sign up to my newsletter to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances and further insights on how to lead with impact.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

The NHS is one of those institutions that

Lee Griffith:

practically everyone well in the UK anyway will have come into

Lee Griffith:

contact with in one way or another in their lives. We might

Lee Griffith:

read the headlines, listen to political speeches or hear about

Lee Griffith:

our friends and families experiences. What does it

Lee Griffith:

actually like to work and lead in the NHS, particularly in the

Lee Griffith:

current climate, I'm Lee Griffith, a leadership strategy

Lee Griffith:

coach, and in the leads with impact podcast, I'm proving it's

Lee Griffith:

possible to succeed without following outdated rules and old

Lee Griffith:

school stereotypes. I'm here to help you get clear on your

Lee Griffith:

personal strategy, implement some self leadership and connect

Lee Griffith:

with those who serve through your communication so that you

Lee Griffith:

can deliver improved organizational performance,

Lee Griffith:

engagement and reputation. If you want more leadership insight

Lee Griffith:

sign up to my monthly newsletter at Sunday skies.com. Today's

Lee Griffith:

episode is a good one, I had the pleasure of chatting with David

Lee Griffith:

media chief nursing officer at Liverpool University Hospital

Lee Griffith:

NHS Foundation Trust, we talk a lot about bringing your whole

Lee Griffith:

self into your role. And David's personality and enthusiasm shows

Lee Griffith:

how you can do that with humility, reflection and

Lee Griffith:

understanding of others. We discussed that transition from

Lee Griffith:

specialist organizational all rounder, what it's like working

Lee Griffith:

with a board, how you improve the staff and patient

Lee Griffith:

experience, tackling the big challenges and encouraging

Lee Griffith:

diversity. I hope you enjoy.

Lee Griffith:

Lovely to welcome you, David to the leaders of impact podcast.

Lee Griffith:

Thank you for joining us. And the whole premise of the podcast

Lee Griffith:

is to explore what impactful leadership looks like. So I want

Lee Griffith:

to start with really open question and define for you to

Lee Griffith:

define really what impactful leadership looks and feels likes

Lee Griffith:

for you. Okay,

Unknown:

so first of all, thank you for inviting me on really

Unknown:

excited, impactful leadership, I gosh, there are so many

Unknown:

different ways to look at this aren't there. And I think that

Unknown:

one of the main ways that perhaps I will talk about

Unknown:

throughout this, because I've obviously prepared my own

Unknown:

thoughts is around how you inspire or how one inspires

Unknown:

other people. And I can't get over the past this, this whole

Unknown:

thing of being your authentic self, which I think is really,

Unknown:

really important. But actually, your authentic, my authentic

Unknown:

self might be rotten, it might really, really turn people off.

Unknown:

And so, you know, I'm sure that never happens. But how do I, as

Unknown:

my authentic self understand how I make an impact on people? And

Unknown:

do I actually bring them along on a journey inspire them to

Unknown:

lead on that journey? So I follow them? Do Why do I give

Unknown:

the opportunity for people to take accountability for

Unknown:

themselves, their actions and their services and their lives?

Unknown:

Or do I does my impact have a contrary indicator to that

Unknown:

people act differently. And so I look at impact for leadership in

Unknown:

a very positive light. But you have a personal responsibility

Unknown:

to understand how you have that impact on other people.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, I think then you've hit on a really important

Lee Griffith:

point because that sense of authenticity. And I often talk

Lee Griffith:

about being an authentic leader or, but actually yet, if you

Lee Griffith:

were really poor person, and that's just who you are not

Lee Griffith:

necessarily encouraging that, or

Unknown:

you just have a kink in your personality or a particular

Unknown:

experience. And we all have experiences in our lives that

Unknown:

have shaped us as individuals, but also shaped us as, as the

Unknown:

leaders we are or the people we are within organizations. And I

Unknown:

think that if we don't, if we don't reflect on how that that

Unknown:

has made us the way we are and how we act and how we relate or

Unknown:

not to other people, we're missing out on a great

Unknown:

opportunity not just to be effective, but we're missing out

Unknown:

on that whole opportunity of connecting with people and

Unknown:

learning.

Lee Griffith:

So So throwing your point back to you, I

Lee Griffith:

suppose what shaped you in terms of getting you to the point that

Lee Griffith:

you're at now. So

Unknown:

I mean, gosh, I think that when I've been a nurse now

Unknown:

this is my 40th year of being a nurse and so I've had lots and

Unknown:

lots of different experiences. And of course, over time, the

Unknown:

culture in which I've worked has been very, very different. I

Unknown:

started off as a trained to be a nurse and became a nurse for

Unknown:

people with learning disabilities in the early 1980s

Unknown:

and worked in What what would have been at an asylum and

Unknown:

institution. And so the behaviors there that I

Unknown:

encountered, looking back were horrific, you know, no, we can't

Unknown:

always look back with modern eyes on past times. But even

Unknown:

then it wasn't good. And it wasn't kind. But throughout all

Unknown:

of that, I worked with some people who had the absolute, the

Unknown:

absolute bottom line of what they would not go below in the

Unknown:

way in which they dealt with people or how they provide care,

Unknown:

or they, how they maintained not just the patient's dignity, but

Unknown:

their own dignity, it what could have been quite a challenging

Unknown:

situation. And so I think throughout the whole of my

Unknown:

career, I've worked with people or I've encountered people, or

Unknown:

I've worked with patients, who have actually given me some

Unknown:

essence of who I am now. And also who I don't want to be. And

Unknown:

I have two people who always springs to mind. And it was not

Unknown:

long after I first started my first nurse training around

Unknown:

somebody who really inspires me today about how to treat people

Unknown:

and how to recognize people who are trying, trying their best,

Unknown:

and who have made a success without being utterly gushy

Unknown:

about it, but actually being really sincere in in thanking

Unknown:

and acknowledging, and then somebody who was, who was such

Unknown:

a, I guess, a challenge person, individually themselves, that

Unknown:

the way in which they lead was by being unpleasant and being a

Unknown:

belief basically, and was allowed to get away with that.

Unknown:

Because the organization didn't challenge and it was a different

Unknown:

time. And, but everybody knew what an unpleasant person this,

Unknown:

the ward manager was, and I always had this, and I'm not

Unknown:

gonna say the name, but I always have this in my head around. If

Unknown:

I ever got to a point where I thought I was displaying any of

Unknown:

those behaviors or traits, or even those thoughts, that's the

Unknown:

bit that's going to make me think, actually, is this the

Unknown:

right? Am I in the right place? Either? Am I in the right job?

Unknown:

Or am I in the right place in my life, or any of those? And then,

Unknown:

of course, there are other outside influences aren't there

Unknown:

or what happens in our lives? You know, we can't and we

Unknown:

shouldn't, we should try and separate our own life

Unknown:

experiences, from how we act in work. And I think that's all

Unknown:

about bringing your best self to work, whether that authentic,

Unknown:

however, we describe it around, acknowledging that the

Unknown:

experiences that we have, as an individual will shape us no

Unknown:

matter where we are, and to try and mask that, or pretend it

Unknown:

didn't happen, or you're not dealing with something or you've

Unknown:

not celebrated something or, or you've not been hurt by

Unknown:

something, I think leaves an emptiness in who you are as a

Unknown:

person and also, therefore an emptiness as who you are as a

Unknown:

leader. Yeah, yeah.

Lee Griffith:

While there is a lot here that I want to unpack

Lee Griffith:

exactly, you're gonna come to later on in the discussion,

Lee Griffith:

taking you right back. So you've been in nursing for 40 years was

Lee Griffith:

that? Yes. Yeah. Did you like

Unknown:

I want to be a nurse. Never, never, never in a million

Unknown:

years. So I grew up in Liverpool, my father died.

Unknown:

Suddenly, when I was 14. I'm the youngest of three children. And

Unknown:

my mum was left as a widow when she was when she was relative.

Unknown:

Well, she was the one. And the plan for me was ending I was I

Unknown:

was 14, when dad died. My plan for me was I was going to finish

Unknown:

the school. And then I was going to do my A levels. And it was

Unknown:

the early 80s. And, you know, if people have a certain vintage

Unknown:

will remember what it was like, then it was it was it was

Unknown:

horrific. You know, there was job shortages, there was there,

Unknown:

recession and all those sorts of things. And so the plan was

Unknown:

either David, you get a job, or you use your eight levels and go

Unknown:

to university. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew

Unknown:

what I wanted to do, but more more laterally, because it

Unknown:

involves really just having a good time and, and doing what a

Unknown:

young teenager would want to do, you know, go out and stay out

Unknown:

and work in the pub. And that really wasn't the probably the

Unknown:

best idea. And so as part of my high levels, we were allowed to

Unknown:

do an afternoon a week doing voluntary work. And I went and

Unknown:

worked with Mencap and I chose Mencap because the sensor or the

Unknown:

place I was going to be doing the voluntary work was it was

Unknown:

easy to get to it was something that I had never done before and

Unknown:

I thought that would be interesting. And I went and I

Unknown:

really really enjoyed myself and I really thought this is going

Unknown:

to be really great. And again, looking back it was very sort of

Unknown:

old fashioned even though fashion said At times, but it

Unknown:

was it was an opportunity for people with who have a learning

Unknown:

disability to mix with their peers, and to try and do some of

Unknown:

the activities that you would do. And they records and we, we

Unknown:

just tried to have it, but it was it was a false environment.

Unknown:

So it was in the church hall. But it was the best that I guess

Unknown:

was happening at the time. And one of the workers said to me,

Unknown:

gosh, you're good at this, have you thought about doing it as a

Unknown:

career and I smell I'm gonna plan to go to university because

Unknown:

I want to get a qualification. And they said, you can become a

Unknown:

nurse for people with learning disabilities. Now, I'd never

Unknown:

there was nobody in my family who was in there sort of any of

Unknown:

those services. And so I just, I thought, That's Gosh, that's

Unknown:

interesting. And then there was an advert in the Liverpool Echo

Unknown:

a couple of weeks later for a hospital just outside the East

Unknown:

End of London who were advertising for student nurses.

Unknown:

And I saw it and I, I applied, and I had a small interview in

Unknown:

Liverpool, and then I pass that on that had to go down to

Unknown:

London, or outside London to start to have a proper

Unknown:

interview. And of course, I didn't think I was going to get

Unknown:

it. So it didn't bother telling them that ad apply. And four

Unknown:

days later, I told her I was staying at a friend's house

Unknown:

overnight. So there you go. I got a letter, say that I was

Unknown:

going to be starting my training in that September. And then I

Unknown:

had to break it to my mom that I was going to become a nurse. And

Unknown:

I was going to be moving down south not going to university

Unknown:

because it wasn't a university program. And so I, my mom sort

Unknown:

of just wish she was just wide eyed with astonishment of a

Unknown:

nurse. And she basically said, Well, you know, I'll give you

Unknown:

three months. If you don't like it, come back, we'll find you a

Unknown:

job. And then you'll go to university the year after. And

Unknown:

of course, I went, I loved it. And the rest is the rest is

Unknown:

history. So short answer, no expectations that I would ever

Unknown:

be a nurse. But as soon as I started my training, I recognize

Unknown:

that that whole aspect of being with people either as a in that

Unknown:

pair caring role or that professional role, but also with

Unknown:

colleagues and the atmosphere working in an organization, a

Unknown:

big organization, and the experiences that have the

Unknown:

absolute privilege of those experiences was something that I

Unknown:

thought, oh my goodness, I'm at home here. And it just led on to

Unknown:

lots of different opportunities. And I don't think I've ever

Unknown:

looked back and thought, Gosh, I wish I had gone and done

Unknown:

sociology as a as a degree, nothing against people who do

Unknown:

sociology as a degree in the early 80s. But I don't know

Unknown:

where I would have ended up I'm sure it would have been very

Unknown:

happy. What my life has been so rich for the fact that I have

Unknown:

been a nurse. So

Lee Griffith:

you're now chief nurse in a hospital trust in

Lee Griffith:

Liverpool? Yeah, for those who don't know what that might

Lee Griffith:

entail, again, to give a brief overview of what cheapness does

Unknown:

feel. So I work at a large university teaching

Unknown:

hospital in in Liverpool. And we have three hospitals sites

Unknown:

before hospitals, we employ probably just over 15,000

Unknown:

members of staff, of which about a third are registered nurses,

Unknown:

healthcare assistants and allied health professionals. And so I'm

Unknown:

the I'm the member of the Trust Board, who is professionally

Unknown:

accountable for their practice, but also have a an executive

Unknown:

responsibility for patient safety patient's experience, for

Unknown:

safeguarding for governance and the way in which we manage our

Unknown:

governance processes. From those that learning from incidents of

Unknown:

volunteers chaplaincy, there's a whole raft of portfolios, and

Unknown:

then some some clinical services as well, infection prevention

Unknown:

and control tissue viability, smoking cessation, some end of

Unknown:

life care, and so we have a whole portfolio. And so I'm the

Unknown:

representative on the board that gives advice and assurance on

Unknown:

safe practice, advice and guidance on how we should

Unknown:

conduct ourselves as a board for making decisions when it comes

Unknown:

to those patients safety and experience concerns or issues,

Unknown:

but also to put back quality Angular when we're talking about

Unknown:

decision making discussions around how we use our resources,

Unknown:

and so can reflect back into would that potentially have a

Unknown:

positive or negative impact on how safe we can provide care.

Unknown:

Again,

Lee Griffith:

there's loads in here that I want to pick up on

Lee Griffith:

but I want to focus a little bit first on that transition into

Lee Griffith:

one Things, often with first time executives, you see that

Lee Griffith:

they've come up through a specialist route. And then they

Lee Griffith:

get into this more general generalist role where they're

Lee Griffith:

having to be more organizationally focused and

Lee Griffith:

everything. So I'm interested in what your experience has been as

Lee Griffith:

you've transitioned through more and more senior roles into one

Lee Griffith:

where you're not just representing your specialist

Lee Griffith:

area, but you're having to have everything.

Unknown:

So I guess, I took the usual route of becoming a

Unknown:

general nurse training after after my learning disability

Unknown:

training. And then I stayed in that because that was that I

Unknown:

felt really comfortable and the opportunities were great. And I

Unknown:

did that usual route of becoming a ward manager. And then I went

Unknown:

into a specialism and set a service up. And then I was given

Unknown:

the opportunity to actually go back into a leadership role and

Unknown:

become responsible for a whole group of wards and departments

Unknown:

Am I did that and was that something I chose to do?

Unknown:

Probably not. In practice, I don't really think of how to

Unknown:

forward a cogent forward plan for my career, what I've done is

Unknown:

I've always tried to put myself into the best position of just

Unknown:

in case something comes along, oh, that may look interesting.

Unknown:

But when I got into the leadership role, and the overall

Unknown:

wards and departments, I recognized that gave me a

Unknown:

greater opportunity to not just support patients, but support

Unknown:

people who were providing those services, to have a greater

Unknown:

voice in how those services were delivered, and how they were

Unknown:

going to be better supported as professionals. And then then I

Unknown:

got your opportunities to that I was the deputy director of

Unknown:

nursing. And then I had my first Chief Nurse role back in 2006.

Unknown:

And so, and that was a small organization. And it was great,

Unknown:

and it was lovely, but it was recognized that my experience

Unknown:

there as a Chief Nurse would be very, very different to appear

Unknown:

in a larger organization. And so I think that was a great

Unknown:

opportunity for me to, to have tested the waters of whilst

Unknown:

that's something I was comfortable doing, or at ease

Unknown:

with the discomfort of doing, and but also competence to be

Unknown:

able to make decisions. And to work within that collaborative

Unknown:

approach of an executive T. Think I did have that security

Unknown:

of because it was a specialist trust, I was able to rely on my

Unknown:

specialist clinical knowledge to help guide me through some of

Unknown:

those trickier decisions. And then it was an IT WAS JUST

Unknown:

opportunities and circumstance. I did a sideways move, typical

Unknown:

my deputy director of nursing in a large teaching hospital. So I

Unknown:

got that wider experience, again, not with the expectations

Unknown:

that I was always going to go on to that senior leadership role,

Unknown:

because I was considering Do I go into a senior clinical route,

Unknown:

but opportunities just came up. And I guess the more I was

Unknown:

becoming involved in AI, I gave myself an opportunity to

Unknown:

experience more than just what that was in my role. I you know,

Unknown:

I would dabble or I would get involved in particular projects.

Unknown:

More as a curiosity than than anything. It led me to a point

Unknown:

very often of Gosh, that's really interesting. I'm sure I

Unknown:

could do that. Or would it be great to be one of those, one of

Unknown:

the leaders that that could help shape doing something or making

Unknown:

a difference, and we use making a difference quite a lot in

Unknown:

nursing. And for me, it was what would be the impact on the

Unknown:

people who are providing that service, to make them more

Unknown:

effective, and gain greater satisfaction of doing that job

Unknown:

themselves out. And we now know that there's all research around

Unknown:

the happier staff, more engaged staff provide better patient

Unknown:

care and better patient outcomes. But in essence, what I

Unknown:

wanted to do is work with colleagues so that they enjoyed

Unknown:

doing what they were doing. Because ultimately, it's a very

Unknown:

difficult and challenging job, no matter who you are, whether

Unknown:

you're clinical or non clinical in the NHS. It's always good to

Unknown:

be pressured. And I wants to be part of an opportunity for

Unknown:

people to feel as though their job perhaps enrich them in some

Unknown:

way.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah. What's What surprised you moving into a

Lee Griffith:

board? Well, not

Unknown:

my current vote. Robots, people's behaviors.

Unknown:

Yeah, and people's behaviors. And, and again, this isn't This

Unknown:

certainly isn't my current organization, or perhaps

Unknown:

mentioned my current organization or how I feel about

Unknown:

working here later. I've witnessed some really

Unknown:

interesting and I use the word interesting advisedly behaviors

Unknown:

and ways in which people react to one another. Whether it's

Unknown:

around politics with a small p, and schisms and key, whether

Unknown:

it's around the absolute profound knowledge that some

Unknown:

people have, who may be a non executive around a particular

Unknown:

issue and you think, Oh, my goodness, you know, how amazing

Unknown:

is that, that they can, that you know that they have really taken

Unknown:

the time to hurt themselves so that they can make the best

Unknown:

participation, and then others that perhaps haven't, and they

Unknown:

will lead down a rabbit hole or a or a particular hobby horse,

Unknown:

on an on any opportunity. And so that's been one of the other

Unknown:

people, but it's also been my own, how I felt, when I've, I've

Unknown:

thought, I am feeling vulnerable. In the situation's,

Unknown:

particularly if it's a, if it's to deliver difficult or

Unknown:

difficult or controversial news or result to the Trust Board?

Unknown:

How does that make me feel as an individual taking responsibility

Unknown:

for that? Where I may be sharing a message, that wasn't my fault,

Unknown:

but you can't, you know, one, I'm in a position of

Unknown:

responsibility. And I can't just say, Oh, it's not my fault. But

Unknown:

I have to take an accountability for myself, and my own

Unknown:

leadership around. So why are we in a position and so sometimes,

Unknown:

understanding more around my own vulnerability has been that

Unknown:

profound learning at Trust Board, and what is it that makes

Unknown:

me either feel uncomfortable, or has made me feel uncomfortable?

Unknown:

So yeah, it's looking at my own learning from situations that

Unknown:

might might not have felt so great initially, but you know,

Unknown:

looking back, and perhaps how I've dealt with things in

Unknown:

different ways, I do like to reflect, don't do sort of formal

Unknown:

reflection. As an exercise, I don't, I don't sort of write a

Unknown:

journal I do. I do write things for memory. But actually, I do a

Unknown:

lot of personal reflection, on my day or my week, or whatever,

Unknown:

when I'm doing non work activities. And I think that

Unknown:

that sort of exercise is really, really important, because that's

Unknown:

the only way that I personally am going to learn and then

Unknown:

reflecting some of that back to other colleagues,

Lee Griffith:

the point you've raised about vulnerability is so

Lee Griffith:

interlinked, in some ways to the behavior point that you've made,

Lee Griffith:

because that's all about how safe you feel, to share those

Lee Griffith:

vulnerabilities and to the things that need to be added.

Lee Griffith:

And if you don't have the right conditions around that board

Lee Griffith:

table, that allows that safety and allows you to be vulnerable,

Lee Griffith:

then that's when the issues occurred, isn't it? Yeah. And I

Lee Griffith:

wondered whether, because we touched on earlier, you you had

Lee Griffith:

this example of an inspiring leader and an award manager

Lee Griffith:

whose behaviors were appalling. And, you know, that is what

Lee Griffith:

you've wanted, you've obviously encountered people at board

Lee Griffith:

level that perhaps haven't had the behaviors and or

Lee Griffith:

demonstrated values that that you would agree with? How do you

Lee Griffith:

how do you think that because it's, you know, this isn't

Lee Griffith:

isolated, I hear this from a lot of people that work, no service,

Lee Griffith:

I've worked in health service myself. So I've experienced that

Lee Griffith:

firsthand. And I have friends and family as well who've, and

Lee Griffith:

it does feel like it's a constant challenge that seems to

Lee Griffith:

be cropping up. Obviously, there are many exceptions and

Lee Griffith:

variability across the country. But what can be done about that?

Lee Griffith:

I'm going off topic a little bit. But it's an interesting

Unknown:

tool. I think it's how I mean, I think we're most

Unknown:

organizations are either looking for, how are we going to create

Unknown:

a pipeline or recruitment, or a future state of succession for

Unknown:

all sorts of roles or roles? So if we're thinking about boarding

Unknown:

the executives and non executives, what how are we

Unknown:

going to prepare people for what may be their future career? And

Unknown:

I think that's equally as important for non executives,

Unknown:

because they will come in and the vast majority of people I

Unknown:

work with, as non execs have been really, really inspiring,

Unknown:

you know, they they often hold really important experience

Unknown:

important and very, very busy jobs and yet they still have the

Unknown:

desire to to support the health system to be better than it is

Unknown:

and, and those sorts of issues. But I think it's becoming more

Unknown:

difficult and challenge now because we're seeing more public

Unknown:

being held to account sort of accountability and We're not

Unknown:

preparing the future workforce as well as we can do. Was the

Unknown:

pandemic something to do with that? Well, I think it was a

Unknown:

lots of things went on pause. But I think that we've got a

Unknown:

responsibility within our own health systems, not just our own

Unknown:

organizations to look at so. So what are we doing to encourage

Unknown:

current and future leaders to be as as progressed as they can be.

Unknown:

And I think that that's a challenge challenge, as well as

Unknown:

everything else that's happening in the NHS. But if we don't do

Unknown:

something, by yesterday, we are going to be in a really really

Unknown:

parlous state, because a lot of leaders that I know are of a

Unknown:

certain age, you know, I'm, I'm 58 this year, and don't deny

Unknown:

that I look at I am 58. I'm 58. And, you know, I'm not intending

Unknown:

to retire just at the moment. But I know that in the next few

Unknown:

years, that will be probably what I'll do. And the job that

Unknown:

I'm in now isn't a first job for a chief of Chief Nurse. This is

Unknown:

a job for someone who has had a an experience and a bit more of

Unknown:

a seasons experience, and career. And we need to be

Unknown:

supporting people now as a professional. And that's not

Unknown:

just in nursing that's in in all roles on boards. And I really

Unknown:

don't think that we as a NHS have really taken that on board

Unknown:

properly. I think we pay lip service sometimes. And we put

Unknown:

people on a program for that program is often in house really

Unknown:

tried to do it really nicely. And well. But actually, the way

Unknown:

in which you get that experience is by having contacted networks

Unknown:

outside of your own organization, and that it's not

Unknown:

just friends, it's not just bodies, it is people who will,

Unknown:

who will challenge you challenge you respectfully, but will

Unknown:

challenge you about your your, your aspiration, or your

Unknown:

position or your decision making or how you would react to a

Unknown:

particular set of circumstances.

Lee Griffith:

I need to hire you as my marketing person that's,

Unknown:

well, we can discuss it, it's normally biscuit. So

Unknown:

you know.

Lee Griffith:

So you touched on the fact that you represent a

Lee Griffith:

third of the workforce in your organization. But your

Lee Griffith:

accountability is much more wider than that from a quality

Lee Griffith:

patient care point of view. And from an organizational

Lee Griffith:

responsibility as well. How do you make the two things work

Lee Griffith:

with each other and not against each other.

Unknown:

So I think that the most valuable thing that I do is

Unknown:

to really prioritize visibility. And so that visibility can take

Unknown:

all different forms. So obviously, people can't see me

Unknown:

today, but I'm in uniform today, I wouldn't normally wear

Unknown:

uniform. But what I try and do is two or three mornings a week,

Unknown:

I will be on one of our hospital sites. And I'll meet the staff

Unknown:

who are coming in for the beginning of their shift. So

Unknown:

I'll be there for 630. And I'll do that till eight o'clock in

Unknown:

the morning. And of course you meeting members of staff,

Unknown:

whether it's nurses or administrative staff,

Unknown:

consultants, porters, whoever are coming in, as well as

Unknown:

members of the public. And first of all people at have started

Unknown:

this in the pandemic, because it was an easy way to contact to be

Unknown:

in contact with staff. But what I found was just having that not

Unknown:

not running around trying to do a hello, how are you, but

Unknown:

actually standing still in a prominence area and giving

Unknown:

people eye contact as they come into work and say morning, how

Unknown:

you doing hope you have a good chest, I hope you have a good

Unknown:

day, people are a little bit stunned, a little bit unsure at

Unknown:

first, but you become a fixed feature. And then people will

Unknown:

come up and talk to you. And so I think I learned a lot more

Unknown:

doing things like that where I am being consciously still and

Unknown:

observing than I would if I were to do a formal round or

Unknown:

whatever. And I don't really particularly like those that

Unknown:

that that formality of I think it just puts people's backs up

Unknown:

and didn't really think it's as as useful as it as it could be.

Unknown:

But actually, what I really thought would happen was I would

Unknown:

just be inundated with people coming up and having telling me

Unknown:

what was wrong, what was wrong in that organization or how I

Unknown:

was treated badly or whatever. And I have to say 90 95% of

Unknown:

people come up and tell me something positive because they

Unknown:

don't think that I know that it's happened, whether it's in

Unknown:

their departments or on their ward or whatever. And it could

Unknown:

be something monumental, or it could be something that they

Unknown:

consider as being trivial but actually makes a difference how

Unknown:

they prepare for meal times for patients. And they just want to

Unknown:

let you know because they're proud of it. And so, you know, I

Unknown:

will, you know, we all have our phones with us and I'll throw

Unknown:

out a while just jot that down. Because when I do go out onto

Unknown:

the clinical areas, I'll make a point of going and seeing Rachel

Unknown:

on ward 12. T. But and just going on away. Yeah, he you've

Unknown:

done some really great around mealtimes. I've come just before

Unknown:

lunchtime, just to sort of see what it's because this sounds

Unknown:

really, really exciting. And that's where I get my greatest.

Unknown:

My greatest learning. Yes, we do lots of improvement work. Yes,

Unknown:

we have lots of data and outcomes. But I think being able

Unknown:

to triangulate all about with what you're seeing, and actually

Unknown:

how it feels, because we can do improvement work. But if it

Unknown:

doesn't feel good for the people who were doing the work, or it

Unknown:

doesn't feel good for those people who are receiving care,

Unknown:

we're hitting the target, but missing the mark. Absolutely. I

Lee Griffith:

love that phrase, I'm gonna steal that with pride

Lee Griffith:

consciously still, that's, you know,

Unknown:

if so this was something that I did, or many,

Unknown:

many years ago, and I think it will probably miss out I'm sure

Unknown:

it was a Royal College of Nursing toolkit. And it was

Unknown:

called observations of care. And so if you go into a busy area,

Unknown:

say and outpatients clinic, and you just take a seat, and you

Unknown:

just sit quietly, and watch the interactions. So you'll have a

Unknown:

member of staff who may walk through? And are they looking at

Unknown:

that person who's in a chair, who looks really anxious,

Unknown:

because they're going to be going in for some results? Do

Unknown:

people get eye contact from people as they walk in, because

Unknown:

all that people really want to have is an acknowledgement that

Unknown:

people know that they're there. Because if they get that

Unknown:

acknowledgement, they feel safe. They feel as though yes, my

Unknown:

presence here is important. And then when there's a delay, or

Unknown:

people, they don't feel as though they've been lost. So

Unknown:

that whole issue of being conscious of your own presence

Unknown:

and your own impact is really important. And it's so it's

Unknown:

really great to be able to sit back and watch how other people

Unknown:

do it. Because you can we can learn how we treat our patients

Unknown:

and our the people who use our services, but also why sometimes

Unknown:

staff don't do that, because of the way in which either they're

Unknown:

being led or the organization dumps a load of pressure on them

Unknown:

that is unnecessary, or a whole batch of data requests or fill

Unknown:

this form in and do this because it's the nurse can do it because

Unknown:

all they you know, because the so many of them are or whatever

Unknown:

that might be. And it's that it's that learning and it is

Unknown:

it's a really, really powerful tool just to observe, not

Unknown:

comments, not go and try and fix things. But just to what

Lee Griffith:

I can see behind you. Is it fun boyfriend?

Lee Griffith:

Bananarama. It ain't what you do. It's the way that you do it.

Lee Griffith:

That yeah, I love that. I mean that just a conversation. I will

Unknown:

be crucified for this. We had some really great news

Unknown:

about about our patients experience, sorry, our staff

Unknown:

experience survey recently. And there's a lot of us that the

Unknown:

executive team is relatively new. And so this was the first

Unknown:

year's results that really had an impact because because it had

Unknown:

an impact.

Lee Griffith:

You were the most improved trust when you in the

Lee Griffith:

country, we are indeed on all

Unknown:

measures. And so you know that that that took us from

Unknown:

being lowest of the bout. Adequate, which is not where we

Unknown:

want to be, but actually in a year it was. So we were

Unknown:

discussing a Trust Board around. We were just so how did that

Unknown:

happen? So we were talking about the improvement plan, we were

Unknown:

talking about the processes we do with the way in which we

Unknown:

measure and and we would you know all that really, really

Unknown:

important stuff. And then I was asked for a comments. And I said

Unknown:

I think it's our method, our method of how we have delivered

Unknown:

the improvements. And I'd like to make a quotes and the quotes

Unknown:

I would like to make is Bananarama. It's ain't what you

Unknown:

do. It's the way that you do it. And of course, I did it as a

Unknown:

joke, but to make a point. And it was I was told that somebody

Unknown:

had been on a Trust Board for that see, been an art Bananarama

Unknown:

had never been closer to them before. But actually, it seems

Unknown:

it is the way that you do it. And so well one of my colleagues

Unknown:

sent me that as a as a joke reminder.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, it's a nice, you know, we can have all these

Lee Griffith:

plans and these Wizzy strategies and we can make it sound really

Lee Griffith:

intellectual, but it comes down to kind of heat and behavior

Lee Griffith:

salutely.

Unknown:

So, you know, I have worked in an organization where

Unknown:

we had this, we had a discussion about the five and 10 foot rule.

Unknown:

So if you walking down a corridor, and you are 10 foot

Unknown:

away from somebody, you smile at them. And if you're five foot

Unknown:

away, this was some time ago, five foot away, you'd go Good

Unknown:

morning, you know how intimidated and you're so young,

Unknown:

you know, it was it was so false intent was good. But it was so

Unknown:

false and felt uncomfortable, you know. But again, part of it

Unknown:

I what I've taken the ways, you've got to understand how

Unknown:

people look at you as a leader, as you're walking down that

Unknown:

corridor. And if I'm, if I'm marching off to buy a sandwich

Unknown:

from a lunch somewhere, and I sort of like, go in over three

Unknown:

meetings that I've got this afternoon, and crikey, have

Unknown:

prepared for that. And that's going to be an issue. And people

Unknown:

are walking past and I'm not acknowledging people, they're

Unknown:

either going to think he's moody, or he's not approachable.

Unknown:

And neither of those, I would want people to have that

Unknown:

impression of me. Sometimes I am moody. But it says, that

Unknown:

shouldn't be reflected on how I work or treat or react with with

Unknown:

staff. I need to deal with that and in a different way. And so

Unknown:

you know, you're very much on show, I guess. But yeah, and so

Unknown:

yeah, we said we don't have a five and 10 foot rule here.

Unknown:

That's good.

Lee Griffith:

So can we touch a little bit on the challenges? So

Lee Griffith:

obviously, there's been a lot in the media recently around public

Lee Griffith:

satisfaction in the NHS. We know morale is an issue. That's that.

Lee Griffith:

Across the board, things have been incredibly relentless, pre

Lee Griffith:

production pandemic, but has continued to, you know, ever

Lee Griffith:

since. And then there's this narrative nationally around the

Lee Griffith:

drive to do more with less focus on improving quality moving care

Lee Griffith:

out of hospital settings, whatever it might be. So there's

Lee Griffith:

this constant challenge and change in the way that the NHS

Lee Griffith:

should be working. How does it feel to be leading in the midst

Lee Griffith:

of that,

Unknown:

on my on my best day, it's really exciting because

Unknown:

actually, I work in a system where our health and social

Unknown:

partners are really, really want to collaborate and to work on

Unknown:

different models and different approaches. And so there is an

Unknown:

opportunity for us to be as creative as possible. I work

Unknown:

with some amazing people within my own organization, who were

Unknown:

really Sparky, and why don't we? Why don't we pilot Why don't we

Unknown:

do or whatever, you're really great and picking up the best

Unknown:

practice from other areas. On my less than best day, it can

Unknown:

sometimes feel overwhelming of not another, not another and

Unknown:

whether that's partly because of I've been around the block a few

Unknown:

times. Now, when you do see some of the things initiatives come

Unknown:

back again, perhaps with a different badge or, or a

Unknown:

different logo will be a bit weird. We've done that before.

Unknown:

And I never want to be that person who says we did that

Unknown:

before it never worked. Because perhaps things just were at the

Unknown:

wrong time. And that's why it didn't work. Perhaps we didn't

Unknown:

give it the greatest emphasis, or the different care in how we

Unknown:

implemented or we didn't support our our people to to, to be the

Unknown:

best that they could be. But there's a you're right about the

Unknown:

morale across across the my profession, nationally, is that

Unknown:

you know, people feel people still feel exhausted. And they

Unknown:

all they can see is through to the end of the shift in the main

Unknown:

that obviously that's not everybody. But I'm still

Unknown:

heartened by even though people are working incredibly hard in

Unknown:

very, very difficult circumstances. The significant

Unknown:

thing that comes back from them is we want it to be alright for

Unknown:

our patients. We want it to be safe for our patients. How can

Unknown:

we do it differently? And yes, we will all have a tuner or this

Unknown:

isn't right. We need more we need difference. But actually,

Unknown:

that recognition is still there around. Well, we're not going to

Unknown:

be able to move all these patients out of the hospital,

Unknown:

they should be in social care or receiving care in their own

Unknown:

homes. And so that is going to have a delay within our patient

Unknown:

flow. So what are we going to do to make it the best that it can

Unknown:

be maintaining people's privacy and dignity and in that the best

Unknown:

of a difficult situation. And a lot of that comes from my

Unknown:

colleagues who are working on the frontline as it should do

Unknown:

because they're the experts. They're the ones that are living

Unknown:

it day in day out. And so it does feel disheartening it

Unknown:

sometimes it feels overwhelming, but it does bring absolute

Unknown:

golden rays of amazingness Because of the way in which some

Unknown:

people take that challenge, and really turn it into an

Unknown:

opportunity. I know that sounds cheesy. But some people I work

Unknown:

with that. Yeah, I just don't know where they get that

Unknown:

creativity and that drive from the having done a really, really

Unknown:

tough shift.

Lee Griffith:

And how do you get, I suppose the board buy in

Lee Griffith:

and that alignment, when you've perhaps got, I'm not saying this

Lee Griffith:

of your organization, specifically, you've got a

Lee Griffith:

finance director that is really focused on on the bottom line,

Lee Griffith:

you've got an operational director who's being pressured

Lee Griffith:

for the targets, for example. So everyone's got their own

Lee Griffith:

pressure from a different angle, how do you what is posed about

Lee Griffith:

getting that alignment,

Unknown:

I suppose it's about being mindful that without the

Unknown:

partnership of working with the FD, or the chief operating

Unknown:

officer, or or whoever, without was working together it, you

Unknown:

know it, you know, having a sound, financial balance means

Unknown:

nothing, if there's such significant harm, having amazing

Unknown:

quality of care means nothing if we are absolutely bankrupt, and

Unknown:

we're all removed as execs and then the hospital goes into a

Unknown:

mass cost improvement plan the year after, and everybody leaves

Unknown:

because it's boom or bust all the time. So so there is an

Unknown:

imperative for us all to understand what our own

Unknown:

priorities are. One of the amazing things that I'm really

Unknown:

delighted about the organization I work in and this is led by our

Unknown:

chief executive is that we make a conscious decision that once a

Unknown:

month, the executive team take some time together, and we take

Unknown:

a day. And that's that's a big commitment, time wise. But we

Unknown:

take a day, we do some what our shared goals are we do, what

Unknown:

development do we need as a team? We do? What are our

Unknown:

priorities and how we're going to get to them? But actually, it

Unknown:

will be David from a nursing and clip, non medical clinical

Unknown:

position. Where do you see and then our FD will come in. And we

Unknown:

and we will all understand that we will come to a mutually

Unknown:

agreed to scenario unitary board, is that a unitary

Unknown:

approach? But we will do that? And we will it's safe for us to

Unknown:

have a bit of a discussion about David, you talking through your

Unknown:

hat? Because actually, we can't do that at the moment. And I'll

Unknown:

be going here, but we if we don't we've got a regulator

Unknown:

who's really pushing for us? And how are we going to balance that

Unknown:

regulatory aspect against our, the regulatory aspect around

Unknown:

finance and, and so it's how we work together around having that

Unknown:

balance and understanding of what our risk is. And so that's

Unknown:

the approach that we take here around our discussions and our

Unknown:

approach is around, what are we going to do to reduce that risk?

Unknown:

And that risk can be a financial risk, it can be a patient harm,

Unknown:

risk. And never never are they just the one thing? No.

Lee Griffith:

It's one of those? It's like a Jenga tower, isn't

Lee Griffith:

it? You lose? Yeah, yeah. Easy Pieces and try not to. Yeah, I'm

Lee Griffith:

conscious of our time, but I do have a couple of other areas

Lee Griffith:

that I want to touch on if that's okay. So stalking is a

Lee Griffith:

bit of a strong word, but I've had a look at your social media

Lee Griffith:

and talking about, and I can see that you're a great ally and

Lee Griffith:

champion for Equity and Inclusion. Yeah, I suppose I

Lee Griffith:

want to understand a bit more around what I suppose

Lee Griffith:

particularly you're being a male leader in a quite female

Lee Griffith:

dominated area, what your experiences and challenges have

Lee Griffith:

been and how you've had to tackle them in your career.

Unknown:

Yeah, so I, I think that one of the most important

Unknown:

aspects of my job as as a member of the of the of the board, and

Unknown:

that not alone, being the Chief Nurse is around, how do we

Unknown:

ensure that there's fair and equitable access to opportunity

Unknown:

for the whole of our workforce? And if I just look at our

Unknown:

nursing and HP workforce at the moment, we've done a significant

Unknown:

and very successful recruitment of international recruitment

Unknown:

drive, and it has been successful. It's been over a

Unknown:

number of years, and we've had a really small attrition, tiny,

Unknown:

tiny amount of attrition because people feel welcomed and

Unknown:

comfortable and but that's not just that's not good enough, is

Unknown:

it because we are not seeing the representation of non whites

Unknown:

colleagues, people of different ethnicities in more seeing Yeah,

Unknown:

clinical roles. And so that's just wrong. It's wrong on the an

Unknown:

individual basis. But it's wrong for our organization, because we

Unknown:

are missing out on the opportunity of the amazing

Unknown:

experience, having worked probably in two other health

Unknown:

systems, before coming to Liverpool to for people who are

Unknown:

really experienced in their clinical function, but also I've

Unknown:

had been in significant leadership roles, that we should

Unknown:

keep them on a band five, or a band six shouldn't just talk

Unknown:

about grades. But, you know, that denotes that we're not

Unknown:

taking them seriously. And so, you know, we we, as an

Unknown:

organization are actively looking at and so how can we

Unknown:

support that equitable approach, for access to opportunity, I've

Unknown:

had the privilege of of receiving reverse mentoring from

Unknown:

from some members of staff. And it doesn't fill me with joy,

Unknown:

some of the stories I hear, and some of the experiences that

Unknown:

people have, and it's, we can call it, we can call it all

Unknown:

sorts, it can be unconscious bias, we can call it all sorts,

Unknown:

but it's prejudice. It's prejudicial behavior, of

Unknown:

treating people differently, because there is a

Unknown:

characteristic and that characteristic is that they are

Unknown:

not white British people. And that makes me feel angry, it

Unknown:

makes me feel upset, but it makes me feel why are we doing

Unknown:

this to purposely tie one our hands behind our back from being

Unknown:

the best organization we can do. And so, so whatever I can do as

Unknown:

a leader and a visible leader in our organization, I think is

Unknown:

absolutely my role to do that. We talk about, you know, I've

Unknown:

mentioned a few times about being your authentic self, I,

Unknown:

I'm very open, I'm a I'm a gay man, I've been I've been out all

Unknown:

my career options to either I guess, get out. But there you

Unknown:

go. But it's uncomfortable, uncomfortable about, you know,

Unknown:

don't go shouting or talking endlessly about about like, my

Unknown:

sexuality or anything. But I'm comfortable with people knowing

Unknown:

that sort of the whole me, obviously, there are bits that I

Unknown:

did we all edit that way people know in who I am, and I'm my

Unknown:

background. But I equally know that that means that when I've

Unknown:

had some traumatic and very upsetting things have happened

Unknown:

in my life, that I've been able to get that support to help me

Unknown:

through it by my work colleague, Mike, my husband died 13 years

Unknown:

ago, very unexpectedly. And the love and support I got from the

Unknown:

people I worked with them was amazing. And I don't think I

Unknown:

would have got through or moved moved on to a different place in

Unknown:

my life. Without that, I was okay to talk about bout that

Unknown:

loss. If I was in a situation where I didn't feel I could be

Unknown:

supported either because of my sexuality, or my gender, or my

Unknown:

ethnic background, because people wouldn't support me, we

Unknown:

are not getting the best out of people. And people will leave

Unknown:

our organization or they will just come in, do the day to day

Unknown:

and then leave and go home. And our patients will not get that

Unknown:

best level of care, because our staff are not being treated with

Unknown:

respect. And so for me, that whole equitable approach is

Unknown:

around, let's just respect one another.

Lee Griffith:

Tell me a bit about scouse school because I've

Lee Griffith:

seen it on nine and I love I suppose the cultural awareness

Lee Griffith:

that it brings that connection you've you've obviously making

Lee Griffith:

with the community, the pride the puddly in, you know, what's,

Lee Griffith:

what's the impact of that. And I suppose that's the walking the

Lee Griffith:

talk, isn't it of trying to be inclusive. So

Unknown:

this this was a scheme developed by three of my

Unknown:

colleagues, I take no part in that I go and show up for now.

Unknown:

I'll do a bit of a spiel because of an audience. But it's mostly

Unknown:

it started off for our internationally recruited

Unknown:

nurses. And then we expanded it to anybody who was coming to

Unknown:

work in our organization, who had been recruited from from

Unknown:

overseas, and then we've done it for people who are practicing.

Unknown:

It's a little and it's it's it's free to attend. It's on a

Unknown:

Saturday mornings, early afternoon. And we talk about the

Unknown:

history of Liverpool what how Liverpool became Liverpool and

Unknown:

some of its history, some of its very proud history, but some of

Unknown:

its its history with that we should acknowledge that you

Unknown:

know, there is Liverpool's participation in the slave

Unknown:

trade. Then we talk about some of that cultural issue around

Unknown:

the decline of of industry and then the cultural elements

Unknown:

around music and football and I So we don't want to get all

Unknown:

really heavy with people, but we want to get them give them a

Unknown:

flavor of this is where they're living. And, you know, everyone

Unknown:

has a place in Liverpool. You know, I'll be really really

Unknown:

proud and say I don't follow football at all. I'm from

Unknown:

Liverpool but I live in Manchester and so that that's a,

Unknown:

you know, whew, that's about Mark. But you can be you can be

Unknown:

who you want to be and who you are in Liverpool because there's

Unknown:

something for everybody. And then we do it, you know, the

Unknown:

colloquialisms and the Liverpool accent can be quite strong and

Unknown:

difficult to understand. And so we do even things like you know,

Unknown:

we teach them gaps words that you'll hear when you when you in

Unknown:

the street or Gauss words that you'll hear in the hospital or

Unknown:

in the Ozzy when they come in. And so we even do something like

Unknown:

you know, we give them different scenarios, and then we'll get

Unknown:

three of them often they have to do a short two minutes to get

Unknown:

using the words. And I thought Gabor, no, gosh, nobody is once

Unknown:

going to want to do that. It's the best bit of the day, and

Unknown:

people are all buzzing to another level, we're all really

Unknown:

excited about getting up and doing it and and what it's done.

Unknown:

It's given people a, a bit more of an anchor and a hook into the

Unknown:

city, that actually we're they are not here, just to work in

Unknown:

the hospital. They are here to be part of our community and to

Unknown:

enrich the community as a whole. scouse school is going to

Unknown:

develop even further because actually, what we need to do is

Unknown:

we need to learn more from our our new colleagues about what

Unknown:

they are bringing to Liverpool that we need to learn about that

Unknown:

will enrich our lives. So it's on the whole it's it's a great,

Unknown:

it's a great day adds a lot of laughter. Our a lot of laughs

Unknown:

Yeah, thank you Tila, like we do mention Scylla of Silla, it's a

Unknown:

real fun day. And it also creates connections between

Unknown:

people in the room, as we'll get over 100 people, you know, we do

Unknown:

it every other month, and we'll get 100 people turning up. And

Unknown:

it's great. And it's a great way for people to get connections

Unknown:

with people that are also new into our organization.

Lee Griffith:

I love that. And it's an it's such a world away

Lee Griffith:

from, dare I say the dry induction that many people have

Lee Griffith:

to go through when they start in the organization,

Unknown:

we do the dry induction as well. You can't get away from

Unknown:

your fire, your fire here trade in or information governance,

Unknown:

you got to do that. But this is something but this is this is

Unknown:

sort of a voluntary approach. And I think we are able to do it

Unknown:

because Liverpool has a very, very strong identity. I don't

Unknown:

know whether it'd be the same if it was sorry, spill, who knows?

Lee Griffith:

I don't want to get into stereotypes there. And

Lee Griffith:

I wanted to touch briefly my penultimate question and is

Lee Griffith:

about self care, self leadership, self preservation,

Lee Griffith:

however, however you want to define it, and I suppose nurses

Lee Griffith:

by nature are usually highly compassionate bundles of

Lee Griffith:

empathy. How do you make sure you're not absorbing all that

Lee Griffith:

emotion?

Unknown:

I mean, obviously I am, I am a nurse, I work in a

Unknown:

different role. Now, I don't provide clinical care myself for

Unknown:

to look after myself, I think that it's, I'll be honest, I

Unknown:

think I've gotten myself into lumbar in the past where I've,

Unknown:

I've just take out just more and more and more, and I'm

Unknown:

absolutely running on an empty tank. And I've done that because

Unknown:

I think I've alright, I'm quote unquote, resilience, and I can

Unknown:

bounce back. But unless you've got something in the tank,

Unknown:

you're never going to bounce back properly. And so I'm a lot

Unknown:

more aware now of when I perhaps need to slow down a bit or how I

Unknown:

make better use of my time out of work. Work is always going to

Unknown:

be busy, but I can I can sometimes control my out of work

Unknown:

my weekends. I really try and keep my way out live by myself.

Unknown:

Got great friends, but I really try and keep my weekend except

Unknown:

when I'm on call work free. I would much rather stay later in

Unknown:

the evening, Monday to Friday or Monday to Thursday, do a bit of

Unknown:

catch up in the evenings at home. But more weekends is about

Unknown:

a weekend and it's about having time off. It's around. You know,

Unknown:

we don't really get much, much opportunity. It's around doing

Unknown:

some exercise. It's around being with people. And if you can

Unknown:

combine the two so I joined a walking group because I love

Unknown:

walking but I was doing the same old walks. And it's I think I'm

Unknown:

really personally I'm very fortunate that most of my

Unknown:

friends don't work in the NHS. Most of my friends aren't

Unknown:

nurses. So we don't get into the NHS politics. And there are

Unknown:

people say hours work, and you know what to talk about at

Unknown:

length, but they wouldn't understand. And it would be a

Unknown:

bit pointless, because they're going, it's going to talk about

Unknown:

whatever it is they do, and I'll just go lovely. Or I'll do

Unknown:

something simpler. That's it. So we check in with each other, but

Unknown:

actually, it's it's having something different going on in

Unknown:

my life. And in the main, I get that, right. I often talk

Lee Griffith:

about nurturing your network and being really

Lee Griffith:

intentional with who you surround yourself with, you do

Lee Griffith:

get variety in whatever shape or form that might be. And yes,

Lee Griffith:

that sounds like that's, that's how you're approaching it.

Lee Griffith:

Fantastic. So my final question is, what's the one piece of

Lee Griffith:

advice you would give someone who's perhaps, in has been in

Lee Griffith:

that specialist role looking to move into a broader executive

Lee Griffith:

role for the first time?

Unknown:

I think, I think there's a couple of pieces of

Unknown:

advice, I think one of them is make yourself known. One of the

Unknown:

things that I have is that I have people just send me an

Unknown:

email saying, I'm in such and such a role. I'm, I don't know

Unknown:

what I'm going to and what I want to do next. And you know,

Unknown:

what, it's an opportunity for me to have a cup of coffee and a

Unknown:

biscuit. And we'll have a cup of coffee and a biscuit. And we'll

Unknown:

just talk about, so where are the great, what's the bit that's

Unknown:

really interesting them and, you know, I'm not doing that all day

Unknown:

long. But I do it frequently enough for me to be able to

Unknown:

better understand that. And then people making themselves known

Unknown:

is really important. People, put yourselves out there, if you see

Unknown:

that there's an initiative happening in your organization

Unknown:

that even just sparked a little bit of interest. Make it make

Unknown:

yourself known that actually, you might want to be part of

Unknown:

that. Or you might want to have a peripheral role in it. Or it

Unknown:

might be the EU some of your own time. But that might be really

Unknown:

rewarding to you personally, because it might give you the

Unknown:

direction of that's really not what I want to do. You know,

Unknown:

because it's equally important to understand what your next

Unknown:

role isn't going to be. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

yeah. try before you buy kind of thing. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

indeed, I

Unknown:

was I was. In my previous roles. I was a deputy

Unknown:

chief executive, which was great and really interesting, as well

Unknown:

as Chief Nurse. And then I was, I was the interim chief

Unknown:

executive, for a while. And I knew that being a chief

Unknown:

executive was one thing I never want to be. Just not that it's

Unknown:

not a great job. But it just, it doesn't push the buttons I need

Unknown:

in my career, and my life, to satisfy me, is the same as a

Unknown:

nurse thinking about what clinical area you want to work

Unknown:

in when you first qualify, I always thought I wanted to work

Unknown:

in accidents and emergency emergency departments. And then

Unknown:

I did that as a student. And I thought, There's no way I want

Unknown:

to work here. It's not like the telly. It wasn't like the

Unknown:

television. And so surprisingly, and then I found my own niche.

Unknown:

When I when I qualified and and you know what, even if you go

Unknown:

into something, it's not going to be forever, or it doesn't

Unknown:

have to be forever, but you will take something from it to move

Unknown:

into your next role.

Lee Griffith:

Brilliant, really? Well, thank you so much. I

Lee Griffith:

literally could talk to you forever. But we do have to end

Lee Griffith:

at some point. If people want to get in touch or follow you like

Lee Griffith:

where's the best?

Unknown:

The best, the best approach is to go through

Unknown:

Twitter X. Yeah. And my handle is at all one word at David F.

Unknown:

Amelia at app ready.

Lee Griffith:

And I'll put that all in the show notes. But thank

Lee Griffith:

you very much again for your time. Nope.

Unknown:

Thank you very much for the opportunity. It's been

Unknown:

really great.

Lee Griffith:

If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review

Lee Griffith:

on Apple podcasts and let me know what you thought on

Lee Griffith:

LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the

Lee Griffith:

next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime, sign up to

Lee Griffith:

my newsletter at Sunday skies.com for monthly insights

Lee Griffith:

on how else you can lead with impact. Until next time,

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