Join Jason Fernandes, Co-Founder of AdLunam Inc., as he speaks with Holger Fischer, Head of Ecosystem at Concordium, about the future of blockchain and identity management. They explore the role of decentralized identity verification, balancing privacy with accountability, and how blockchain can transform security across industries. A must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of AI, blockchain, and secure digital identity.

Identity-Centric Blockchain: The Future of Security and Verification

SPEAKERS

Jason Fernades, AdLunam Inc

Holger Fischer, Head of Ecosystem at Concordium

Hi, everybody. We'll give it a second for the room to fill up. If you're just tuning in, please drop an emoji in the chat to confirm that you can hear us properly. All right, we'll wait 30 seconds and then get started. All righty, everyone, before we kick things off, I've got some exciting updates for the upcoming events where AdLunam \ be making waves. I'll be speaking at the wiki finance Expo at Bangkok this Saturday on September 7, on token omics and airdrops design in Thailand. This is the place to be. I hope to see you there. Our co-founder Nadja Bester will be speaking at Gatherverse AI Evolve Summit on September 10, on a panel title day, workforce revolution, AI and human collaboration and action. Definitely don't want to miss this one. Follow AdLunam to get the viewing link. Altcoin Observer, that's our media partner. I mean, that's our media arm will be a media partner at wiki finance Expo Bangkok on September 7, we'll be catching up with experts in the web3 world and giving away some awesome merch. So don't miss out wherever we're bringing the future blockchain to you. Alrighty. Fantastic. Now without further ado, welcome to episode 87 of Diving into Crypto sponsored by AdLunam Inc, I'm your host. Jason Fernandes, co-founder at AdLunam really excited for today's discussion on the future of blockchain through identity security and verifiable credentials to help us navigate this exciting topic, we have a very special guest. Holger Fisher, head of ecosystem at Concordium. Concordium is a layer one blockchain that specializes in identity security and verified verifiable credential solutions. It's a blockchain designed to make the world a safer place. It integrates identity, identity verification and authentication directly into the protocol. So you know that balances accountability through the use of zero knowledge proof, before I get too far into it, I think perhaps hold you. Would you like to maybe unmute, maybe tell us a bit about yourself?

Sure. Thank you very much, Jason, nice to meet you, and nice to be on the AMA today. Can you hear me? Am I coming through clearly?

Yes, perfectly. Glad to have you here as well.

Very good. So I think a little bit about myself. My background spans from various roles within tech and blockchain. I think real passion has always been in sort of finding ways to make cutting edge technologies or disruptive technologies more accessible and impactful, both for users and businesses. Before I joined Concordium, I worked at a company called 2021 AI, which was a, or is a platform for developing, maintaining and governing machine learning models. And now I moved into blockchain technology, which has always been a hobby of mine, always something I've been investing in, focusing in, very interested in. And as soon as I found out that there was a possibility to work for a blockchain company in Copenhagen, Denmark, where I'm based out from, I seized that immediately. So that's very briefly, who I am and what I've been doing before.

Awesome. Now, since we're on the topic, I'm curious, you know, how you going to do sort of got into blockchain and crypto? I know you touched upon that briefly, but what was the moment, you know, where the switch flipped and you said, hey, you know, I think this is something that I want to do for a living.

I think being highly engaged within this whole fear, within this whole industry for many years now, one of the key issues I observed in within various change that I was sort of doing due diligence on and investing in adding to portfolios were more like the growing need for a more secure and trustworthy infrastructure, a more secure and trustworthy system that you could build these blockchain solutions on top of. I think there was a very, very large lack of robust and scalable solutions, which was causing friction for a lot of companies across a lot of industries, and especially in sectors that require high levels of compliance. So I think that being getting my eyes opened up for a place or chain like Concordium, it was very clear to me that blockchain as a infrastructure, as a technology, had to, had the potential to provide a more, what can you say, transformative solution where you can merge a lot of stuff and a lot of entities from web two to web three. And I think that that sort of whole thing stemmed from some of the shortcomings of earlier blockchain projects where there is a lot of anonymity, which is not really a place that you are welcoming. As we see regulatory compliance emerge much more in this space, and this is especially where Concordium comes in. And I will get a chance to speak on that on a later behalf, but basically what I'm doing at Concordium, being head of ecosystem growth, is to focus on building partnerships. Is to focus on supporting projects that are leveraging Concordium’s blockchains, unique identity layer, stable transaction fees, infrastructure that has been built out over the past couple of years, or even leveraging innovative ideas that is coming from other parts of the ecosystem as well. And basically what drew me and was drawing others to Concordium at the time was its very scientific research driven approach. A chain that was designed with compliance identity in mind. And this is not just another blockchain chasing trends, right? It's a platform that's deeply rooted in sort of addressing these very real world issues that businesses face today, and particularly within digital identity, which I know will touch a lot upon today as well, Jason, because concordat might have been a little bit early with that, as a lot of these features has been more nice to have and but as regular as regulation is coming to the space, it will be more transition to need to have. But we can get into that.

Yeah, actually, I'd love to. I like the idea of, you know, I think the idea is something that that that is really going to grow. It's surprising that it hasn't quite caught the interest of investors the way some of these other more like narratives, like AI, excuse me, Metaverse, all these NFTs, for example. I think by far, one of the greatest use cases, I think, for blockchain eventually will end up being, you know, the ID, and sort of controlling access to information and ensuring, you know, sovereignty of that information. So I'm curious, definitely want to learn more about Concordium. I know you guys are layer one. So with the, with the with the goal be, since your head of ecosystem, with the goal beat to have, you know, multiple projects, let's say launch on the blockchain. Like, would you be guys looking at launchpads to essentially, then launch projects in the DID security space, on, you know, Concordium, build on Concordium. Like, is that something that you guys are looking at? Like, how do you guys actually implement that?

So I think to begin with, it's important to maybe talk about decentralized identity, or self sovereign identity, as we call it, as well. I mean, when we talk about another big emerging technology, such as artificial intelligence, that is something people have been talking about for the past decade. It wasn't really until you had that killer application with hundreds of millions of users within a couple of months time, like ChatGPT and generative AI that you started to understand, or the layman started to understand why we need this new, emerging, disruptive technology and what it's good for. And I think if you ask me something you just said yourself, that the killer application for blockchain technology will be a decentralized digital identity. I mean, if you take a look at the world right now, a lot of digital identities, Yours, Mine, everyone listening in here, is managed primarily through centralized systems. This was actually also something I studied a lot about during my Master's at Copenhagen Business School, where, whether it's a social media platform, it's financial service or, as we all probably have, a government issue, ID, all of these systems operates within a centralized framework, right? And this is a place, this is a database like any other, where data is stored and it's controlled by a single entity, and the risk in this setup are clear, right? Data breaches, stuff like identity theft, misuse of personal information, all of this, right? And, and I think everyone has known or heard about these major incidents where we have these huge data breaches, where sensitive information of millions of people are exposed, right? And these are just the kind of breaches that highlight how vulnerable centralized systems are to attacks. So in terms of blockchain in this role, in terms of Concordium In this role, and in terms of sort of getting that killer application that will make people understand, why the hell do we need this? Why are there so many why there's so many research within the space? Why is there so much money pouring in? Why do we have a lot of new interest coming? I think it's, it's because people are aware that this technology is what will allow a lot of us to enable to balance these privacy issues right. And I think blockchain is often sort of hailed a bit and frowned upon a bit for its anonymity or privacy enhancing features. But the reality is that full anonymity is just not feasible in any regulated environment, right? And especially when it comes to combating fraud or complying with KYC or anything else. So blockchain can sort of provide this decentralized solution to identity. But the technology itself also will have to meet the regulatory requirements of these real world applications. And as you asked at the end, this is where sort of components come comes in. Why? Because it is a layer one blockchain, but it has identity at the core. You cannot just create a wallet, get a seed phrase, and then that's it. When no one knows who you are, right it so with identity at the call it's compulsory from cauldron to become a network participant, you go through a simple identification process. It sort of helps to address the limitations of both decentralized identity systems, but also where you have these more anonymity focused blockchains like Bitcoin or Ethereum, right? So with Concordium, we're sort of trying to show that you can have both privacy, but you can also have accountability, and because of that, is a thanks for something we call something industry called zero knowledge proofs, right? So basically, that is just a technique that allows for identity verification without exposing any sensitive data, and that is sort of where everything moves into one single harmony within Concordium, right? So using layer one blocks and have identity at the core, but to have accountability, like, if there's any bad actors that done any illicit activity, they can actually be disclosed, they can be found, right? So, so, but at the same time, you are fully private, because every time you want to sort of let anyone know any personable, identifiable information, you have that decentralized in your wallet, and through a few knowledge proof, you can actually just prove the statement that someone is asking, right? And, and I think that sort of is the gist of what we are trying to do here at Concord, if that makes any sense at all. Jason,

no, absolutely it does. I'm also curious, you know, what about, what about, you know, people that want to stay more anonymous? Do you think? Do you think the role of Concordium, as is definitely to verify somebody's identity, but then also be a bridge towards something like blockchain, like, like Bitcoin, or some of these more privacy focused coins, and then sort of say, you know, show them that they can have a bit of both. Or do you think that you're going to build, in some degree, or maybe completely, anonymity and privacy directly into Concordium?

I mean, no, it's a very simple answer, because that's not the idea, right? I mean, right now, if you are building on any other infrastructure in web2, or if you're trading on an exchange web2, you're not anonymous, right? I mean, like, that's not the purpose your everyone is very well aware of who you are, right? Because that's what you have to do and follow to in order to comply with the regulations and the safeguards that's installed within that space, to sort of meet the regulatory requirements, and it's very important that you understand, to try to understand Concordium In the same way, because it integrates a decentralized digital identity directly into the protocol. It's very foundational element so where most other blockchains just primarily focus on anonymity, which maybe works well for certain use cases right now, but if you ask me, it's not scalable when it comes to the broader applications in regulated industries and right now we are see the regulatory hammer is falling, Right? We're seeing more and more of these legal proposals from big commissions like marketing crypto assets in the European Commission, which is very much about to go live, that is focusing exactly on the application of blockchain technology in this space, and when government has is going to try to enforce this, or if you are bank or maybe even if you are a healthcare provider who wants to keep on using the technology, or now that regulation has emerged and you understand how to use it in within a well structured guideline, this is where Concordium really comes into space, right? Because they need to do it in a way where they know they can identify individuals when necessary, but at the same time, these individuals also protected their privacy in an everyday transaction. So it's actually quite a unique design of how you are not a private permission chain, but that you are public permission list chain. So you try to combine all the benefits of being that, but still with the ability to comply with regulations like KYC and AML and Concordium. It's an idea at the protocol level that sort of enforces that, right? And don't ask me too much in detail, how we do this with it. The issuers and verifiers. I'm not an expert at all, but essentially, every user and gets a verifiable real world identity, and it's not something that's exposed on the blockchain thanks to our users of zero knowledge proof, right? So users just have it in their wallet so they can prove their identity without revealing any other details. And it's, it's, it's, it's something that we are building out with applications for decentralized applications, right? And basically, I think one of our product managers described this in a very good way, saying that it's actually the only blockchain where you have user attributes accessible through smart contract. Okay, if you are, if you have carbon credits that are only tradable for UK citizens, you can actually with zero knowledge proofs, guarantee on the platform that your carbon credit is only tradable for UK citizens. If you say you only want this NFT to be available to people with verified social media accounts, you can have that as well. If, if you want your defi protocol to only to do KYC checks, you can have your KYC check as within your wallet, right? So basically, it's, this is how we're trying to build it out.

Yeah, no, I get I get it now. So essentially, what you're saying is that while the users could choose to be private in, let's say, communication, or how they interact. They're not private to the regulators, so like you have identity verification built in, but then post. Then the person, for example, could choose to be private but then still transact in in a regulated fashion, because there they can share that data just specifically the people that require that data, regulation, regulators and so on,

exactly, exactly right? And it's about finding that that common middle ground, because there will be a lot of technology within this space that will have to adapt very roughly and very quickly when the regulation emerges. Right? So it's also the conversations we're having every day with use cases, applying for grant, building on top of Concordium’s infrastructure, using some part of the tech stack, it's for them to understand that by building on this infrastructure, you are sort of safeguarding yourself against the regulatory risk that you would have building on other chains, right, and you are also ensuring that your users very, very quickly can interact with this technology, or invest in this technology within a compliant environment and I think it's definitely been too early when Concordium sort of went live, because why would a lot of projects sort of mitigate this risk when the regulation hasn't been there yet. I think it's something that they will start to do when the regulation comes. And I guess at the end of the day, it's also about ensuring longevity and minimizing risk for these projects building on top of the infrastructure. So it's always interesting conversations to have.

Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because it's already you have that, you have that built in. So it's sort of acts as a backstop against issues with you that they could have down the line and regulators. I'm curious if you've heard about XM TP, where you know wallet to Wallet messaging, which is, which has been, which happening quite a bit on like Ethereum is a few. I think ether mail, for example, supports that. I'm curious whether you think that there's a use case for messaging within, within, within Concordium. The reason I ask is because it seems to me one of the main one of a core sort of use case when it comes to messaging. And if you see this with sort of these WhatsApp and other chat messaging apps is sort of funds, wallet to Wallet transfers, right? And it seems to be in a compliant, already compliant ecosystem, Blockchain. Wallet to Wallet messaging would allow to for natively building in sort of direct transfer of funds, for example, and pretty much of whatever somebody holds in that wallet, right? Would be an interesting sort of use case, I think.

Well, definitely, actually, to be quite honest, it's the first time I'm hearing about this specific technology, so I'm definitely going to read up about it afterwards, but I haven't. Bit about it before. Maybe you can tell a little bit.

Sure, sure. So there's this essentially unstoppable domains. They've partnered with this company called, I believe it's called XM TPO, and essentially what they do, and it's essentially a web it's a standard blockchain standard for wallet to Wallet messaging, right? So you can have a wallet, and that wallet can be listed on several domains. That wallet could be on even Coinbase, for example, or another wallet could be, let's say, on Coinbase, and you can communicate directly, like, kind of like messaging between wallets. So it's similar to like, if you think about the person to person messaging like you might have on WhatsApp, except your identity is your wallet address, and your access to that wallet is how you communicate with other people. That the interesting sort of use case. The reason that's interesting is because one of the big discussions these days is, is Twitter banning people, YouTube banning people, and censorship and things like that, and so, you know, people don't really have access and control over, you know, their communications. So, for example, I have a very good friend who passed away a few years ago. I went, I went back to our Facebook messages just to sort of reminisce about some discussions that we had, and I realized they'd all been automatically deleted, because apparently Facebook, if you don't log in, like every few years or whatever, they literally freeze your account and delete all your messages. So it's crazy, because all these years of messages that I thought I had that I owned because I was on Facebook Messenger and I communicating with my friend, I realized then that I didn't own that right. And so this wallet to Wallet messaging is such that, essentially, it's permanent, and it's, you know, censorship free, and you it's not controlled by anybody. And then, of course, you can interface with that, whether you're in ensemble domains or crypto. You can just communicate cross across the platform using these wallet to Wallet messaging. And it seems to me, one of the things that they don't, I don't, know if they really have integrated this yet, but it seems to me like if you were to sort of transfer funds between these wallets like that would be one, a really good use case for Fall wallet to Wallet messaging and in your system, because those wallets presumably would already have regulatory KYC, you could very easily build a payment system on top of that, you know, on top of a messaging platform that's built on Concordium.

Definitely, definitely, I think just a quick correction here is we are enabling for KYC to be done. When you are creating a wallet, becoming a network participant. It's actually just a basic identification process. It's not a full KYC, but the infrastructure is there to allow for it, right? And I think that when you sort of speak about the maybe come as a few challenges, right? I think that a lot about what you're also referring to here is sort of maintaining privacy in a public ledger or communication between wallets, right? And, and, I mean, blockchains are designed to be transparent, right? I think every transaction is recorded on a public ledger. But while this transparency is also one of the blockchain's biggest advantages, it also poses a challenge for privacy, right? Because if every transaction is visible on the blockchain, how do you then ensure that the user's pi, I is not exposed, and, and, and again, I think this is where we are focusing so heavily on zero knowledge proofs, which we have implemented, which sort of allow users to verify that certain information, such as identity or such as age, without revealing any personal details, right? And and I think that this ensures privacy you sort of while maintaining the integrity of the system. And I think this is, this is a key mentioning whenever you are sort of speaking about, as you do here, building some of these transfers funds, payment solutions for users on top of an infrastructure, right? Because it sort of allows for that next step of regulatory compliance within identity verification, because that is essential, as you say, if you want to comply with laws like within KYC or ml, right? Because I think one of the problems right now is that, and I know you face this yourself, Jason, I mean traditional KYC process, it require us to submit such large amount of personal data, right? I mean, and we know that it all gets stored in a centralized database somewhere. Again, as I explained earlier, then it's all of a sudden vulnerable to breach and and I think that that that what you can do here with concordium is that you can sort of provide a. Way to meet these regulatory comply requirements without compromising this you use a privacy right. So it's about for concordium, at least, not only just to have a this identity verification, but have built out a web free ID infrastructure that allows for identity applications to be built on top of and then, and this is somehow we are trying to work with this through verifiable credentials, as you mentioned, to be used to to sort of create trust in some of these boxing applications.

Yeah, it's a really good explanation, I think. So, what would you say are the advantages of building digital identity directly into the blockchain as a layer one? How does that approach differ from, you know, more traditional identity management systems?

Okay, so I think we already touched a little bit upon this, right? But I mean, basically when you sort of build these directly into the systems. I mean, I think what we have been trying to do here is, is sort of creating these verifiable credentials that are basically tamper proof digital certificates, right? So, so you can prove certain attributes about an individual or an entity, and it's not only personal identifiable information, it's also qualifications, which could be your high school diploma, your bachelor education, diplomat, about where you work, other personal qualifications, and then using these credentials in a variety of ways to sort of build trust between users and businesses, right? And I think that when you sort of look into the advantages of having that on a decentralized system instead of a decentralized system is, as I referred to before, that you are sort of mitigating a lot of the risks and a lot of the problems that are with being present and having all of your information available in centralized systems that is very vulnerable to data breaches, data leaks and so on, right? So I think it's about getting rid of that, as I referred to in beginning, also. So we are stepping into a world where you sort of has this, have this data, have this completely under control within your own realm of security and within, within, sort of your your own decentralized wallet only for you to access, only for you to use, proving the information, proving statements, without storing that information anywhere else, which is basically what you want, right? So I think that would be a good way of describing it.

That's that so, so that sort of covers why, how that differs when it comes to blockchain. I'm curious for when it comes to identity solutions that are more, that are traditional, like not on the blockchain, what is, what are the advantages of of of you know, using Blockchain technology when it comes to identity verification versus, you know, let's say, in a personal, even enterprise context, versus what are they even doing before, you know, before blockchain came around, what were they doing even looking at when it comes to digital ID? Because we've spoken with a few people in digital ID, and they don't really even see themselves as blockchain. No, they, you know, yeah. Curious, what do you think?

Yeah, there's a big difference, right? There's a big difference. I think an interesting way to think about it is also, how do you encourage for wider adoption of blockchain based identity solutions among businesses and consumers. I don't know if that's something you have thought about yourself.

Could you repeat the question?

So how so you're asking now exactly I mean, what have people been doing before, right? But basically, I mean, as we are moving into a more decentralized world, how? What I mean? How do you encourage a wider adoption of these blockchain based identity solutions, right and and especially in a mainstream retail business world? I think that is, that is where right now, a lot of the solutions are centralized, right and right? And I think that that the technology itself is incredibly promising. You I think you would think that as well. That's why you're sitting here interviewing right now. But it's still, as you say, relatively new, right? And there's a lot of challenges that you still have to overcome in terms of trust and usability and regulation, even though. Know that you are actually, which is the whole idea, right? You are removing that third party risk. You're removing the whole trust element. But it's still very, very difficult, because the technology is quite tainted of some source, right? Because it's still, if you go back to the early days, has been very much the Wild Wild West, and it has been used for anonymity purposes, right? So, right? I think, I think that that that when you, when you speak about this, is a lot about the lack of understanding of how blockchain and decentralized ID works, right? And and then we are facing that every day, businesses, retailers, when we're speaking to them about, as you mentioned earlier, traditional models of identity verification, they are usually not aware of the benefits that a blockchain based identity solution can offer. And we at concordium, at least, has been investing heavily in more guides, more developer tools, more tutorials to sort of help businesses or developers or retailers to understand how they can more easily, easily integrate blockchain into their operations and And I think that a problem with that is, as as we're being told Daily, and it's something we're working on, is also more sort of user friendly interfaces, right? So how do we how do we need to make a blockchain based identity solution as easy to use as possible? It also means developing a more user friendly interface that sort of, I think, disguises and hides the whole complexity of blockchain technology while you are still getting all the benefits of it being decentralized. And we are trying to do that with a focus on building a wallet that prioritizes this, sort of making it more simple for individuals to manage their identities and credentials on the blockchain. But of course, we still haven't cracked it completely yet, because we're still waiting for this whole web two space to be more educated and more aware, being able to teach them exactly how that works, but also just the benefits of it widen and you can, you can take that all the way back to also simply understanding the benefits of why using a public, permissionless chain, why not use just a private, permissioned one? I mean, why? It seems like we are avoiding a lot of the unnecessary risks there are with validators and with the native cryptocurrency and tokens, etc. But at the end of the day, I mean, it's fast, it comes down to explaining to them the lack of transparency, right, and the lack of decentralization, which they are missing out on using a private blockchain instead of a public one, and it's exactly the same direct correlation you can make between a centralized identity system and a decentralized identity, right? So I think that is some of some of the challenges that we are facing every day and speaking to and educating on, and it takes a long time we will get there as soon as we see more, we will use cases and pilots, because that is always one of the best ways to encourage adoption right showcase. We will use cases where blockchain based identity solutions are already delivering value, whether it's KYC processes in finance or patient verification in healthcare could be more supply chain transparency. I mean, this is always some of the examples that is being sort of talked about the most, right?

Yeah, well, one of the things I tell you that jumps out at me is just the process of going on an airplane, right? The amount of times I just take out my passport, the amount of times is check against my name. It's literally ridiculous, you know, and it's and I'm always wondering, like, don't they already have this information? They know what time I'm arriving, they know what time my plane is leaving. They can see me try, you know, travel through the system like, literally, they'll, like, getting on the the little tunnel to the airplane. They'll check, they'll check your path, your passport and your boarding pass. And then once you get to the end of the tunnel, there's another guy there who's again, checking your boarding pass and and ticket. And then you get to the plane, and then the arrows just wants to check your your boarding pass and ticket, and it's just like, it's literally the craziest thing ever. I just think, you know, if they put an NFC trip or something on on my passport, and then just, you know, you tap your password and scan your finger, or something like that. It seems to me like, like, when is blockchain? you know, penetrate the air airline industry, like, do you have, you have any thoughts on that?

I mean, this is exactly what we are, what we are speaking about with the use of ckps or zero knowledge proofs, right your your ability to verify specific information without showing any other information or without having that information stored anywhere else, right? I mean, every time you're showing your passport, you're actually giving them a lot of different information, right? And there's a lot of times where do I actually only after maybe one attribute or two attributes, right? I think, I mean, just mentioning healthcare before we actually, we had a great ama space the other day with one of our new partners called Livia. Livia is sort of an NGO. It's based in Austria, and they are working within sort of transforming, sort of healthcare delivery for more refugees and more. What can you say small marginalized communities and what they are trying to build is sort of an E health solution that can enhance like diagnostic capabilities for trained medical professionals. So, so right now, as as you're saying, you go into a place, you go into the doctor's appointment, you're revealing a lot of various specific information. You have to go there yourself. It's not really a very digitalized journey at all, right, but, but sort of by transforming the patient's pathways, by automating some of these processes, you actually help them, not only to share this information, but also at the same time, to what can you say to improve the user experience and utilize blockchain technology to enhance the security of the data, integrity of the data, but also allow them to automate these processes, right? And I think that so we are trying to work a lot with some E health solutions within various spaces. You're talking about traveling yourself, you're talking about a passport, right? It's it that is also definitely a space that could be disrupted with a more digital solution protecting more privacy information, right?

Yeah, because, you know, a lot of times, like you pointed out earlier, maybe the air hostess just wants to see my seat numbers. She doesn't care about all this other information. Meanwhile, the immigration guy wants to see very specific information. You're essentially just giving a whole bunch of extra data when you don't when you don't necessarily need to. But I'm curious, you know, you mentioned healthcare earlier, and you know, there in America you have this thing, the health insurance privacy and portability act, but HIPPA and so it seems to me like, you know, if you if you figure out a way to be HIPPA compliant and to have, you know, a blockchain based identity solution that was, that was both HIPPA compliant, you can then just plug that directly into any healthcare system, and then that would be a potential use case, right?

Well, for sure, but actually, again, you caught me. You blindside me a little bit. I haven't heard about the specific Health Care Act in the United States. Maybe you can tell a little bit about it.

no, sure. Sure. Listen, I totally get it. Tends to be a lot of information that you get in the world tends to be very American centric, right? And so when you talk about from the broader perspective, anyway, I'll explain a bit. So the it, they passed this law. This is a long time ago. This is like, back when I was still in college, about how health insurance privacy, health information and privacy, rather was, was both private and then portable. So, for example, you could move doctors, and then they had to transfer information. And the information had to be like, held within certain like safeguards to ensure that the privacy was was maintained. And it seems to me like, if you have a blockchain solution that we that was built out, yeah, I'm just talking about a potential use case, right?

Yeah, no, no, I definitely understand. I definitely understand. And I think that it's difficult to navigate right now, because there's a big evolve in regulatory landscapes when it comes to identity verification, or, as you're saying, your data privacy laws, right and, and, and sort of having governments or regulatory bodies understand the advantages of more blockchain based identity solutions is a critical step. I mean, they are, at the end of the day, the ones regulating it right? And it's very difficult for them to regulate stuff they can't understand. And when they regulate stuff they can't understand, that is where it starts to stifle and hinder innovation. It, and when it comes to the adoption of blockchain based identity solutions, you're speaking about it within healthcare, I think that when you then take into account an infrastructure at concordium, it is that it's much easier to work within existing regulatory frameworks, rather than positioning itself on an adversary to regulators, right? So we believe much more in embracing compliance, embracing regulatory oversight, because that is, at the end of the day, how we think blockchain can achieve mass adoption, because it needs to be in a place where there's trust and accountability, and I mean compliance with data privacy laws, as you were talking about here, it's a big one, especially when it comes to blockchain and identity verification. Because within, I mean, just take within the European Union, this is where we operate a lot. Within you have the whole GDPR, General Data Protection Regulation right and and they place very strict requirements on how personal data both can be collected or stored or used by these entities that collects it. And you've seen a lot of the big American corporations like meta getting very, very big fines because they have been sort of overstepping the GDPR regulation within the European Union. And there is a lot of this that can be completely mitigated by sort of transitioning to more decentralized systems. Because when you, for instance, take a look at concordance identity system, there's a lot of GDPR compliant features there, because you allow users to make control over their own data. That's one. You know that personal information is not stored on the blockchain. That's two, and you know that it's done in a way that ensures privacy and security, right? So, so it's actually, when you think about it, any regulators or or any data privacy laws descriptions, solution to a lot of these problems. But the thing is that a lot of these large corporations, they're very much interested in collecting our data, right because they are monetizing it, and they're using it for various purposes and selling that, etc. And right now, we sort of have to either pay for the solutions, or we let them use our data. That is actually what it is right now, right and then, if you take a take a look at blockchain or web three, a big part of what we're trying to disrupt within this space is that users store their own data, they get their own data, and then they can monetize and use this and even sell it, because data is worth something. It's it's it and it's us. It's our behavior data, it's our spending data. So it should also be us who capitalize and monetize it, not the big corporations using it. So I think it's a very difficult thing to speak about, because I don't even think there's a lot of the regulatory bodies or or entities know exactly how to use this technology to to even circumvent a or maybe not, know, not circumvent but, but to mitigate these GDPR compliant systems, right? Because that's basically what it can be about. So Right? There needs to be a lot more engagement in engaging with regulators, and that is the first step?

Yeah, no, I think that's a really awesome point, particularly about, you know, you know, this is the, this is the data that we have and, and if you're not, if, if you know how they It's often said, if you're, if you're not paying for, if you're not paying a subscription, then then you are the product, right? Yes. Whereas in web three, you have this sort of more democratic understanding where, hey, listen, if it's my data, I want to be compensated for it. And I think that is a really fascinating discussion. We should definitely also talk more about that offline, because it's one of the projects that adlunam X is working on is, is focused and specifically that area, but yeah, I think it's, I think that's ultimately where we're going to go, because you think about, like, sort of social, social fi, or even just sort of social media, that, that sort of idea, that the concept of people contributing to using the network effect and making a network more valuable, and that value to be accrued by the owners of that network, where, as opposed to the people actually building the value that is the contributors to the network, I think those days are gone. I think that's like a very web. Way of looking at, I think web three is gonna, it's gonna sort of usher in a way a world where, you know, the people that are making the network more valuable are also the people that own the network, which is not, you know, not true with Facebook, right? I mean, essentially, the more content that you post on Facebook, the more value that's built for Facebook, not for Facebook users, which I think is going to be a very big shift when it comes to web three.

I think you hit it spot on, Jason, and it's very interesting space. I think we're about to round up now it's 10 minutes to fall, right? Do we to be quite honest, I think that we should do a part two at a later stage this year.

I mean, it's really, I'll tell you what it's been. It's been really fun chatting. We normally about halfway through jump into some announcements, but this time, it was just fun to get fun conversation. I didn't want to break the flow, so I just thought, I sort of soldier in. By the way, I'm curious, so let's shift gears. And since we're, you know, toward the end, curious what, what got you into it, into web3, like, where are you Where? Where are you coming at it from a philosophical perspective. There's a lot of people, you know, they get into web three because they're, you know, let's say libertarian, so they believe, like, in that sort of way. And other people, other sorts of people, get in from, like, a more programming perspective, I'm curious others get it from finance. So I'm curious how you got in and what your origin story is.

Oh, that's a very, very good idea, I think, to be quite honest, the very first thing, besides it being, I mean, very first idea was just basically this new paradigm shift in a whole new asset class that you could invest in. That was basically the very first point at what got me into Bitcoin or Ethereum back in the early days. But what is the most interesting thing now is the pleasure of being able to speak to so many innovative minds, so many new entrepreneurs on a daily basis. And I have the sole pleasure of being a position at concordium, being a part of a ecosystem growth or commercial team where we are getting, I mean, many daily grant applications from many skilled, knowledgeable, ambitious and forward thinking entrepreneurs who wants to build the next, you know, big thing, and to sit on a daily basis and speak to these people on how they want to utilize blockchain technology to do this, and how they want to utilize concordance infrastructure to do this, and understanding how we can improve the ecosystem and infrastructure that allows them to fulfill their dreams and and disrupt whatever it is that they want to disrupt. I think that is what's keeping me completely in this right now, and that is always what will sort of keep me within a disruptive tech space. Because I always think that is the most interesting thing, right? So one thing is, you're believing in the technology. Another thing is to, when you work for layer one infrastructure, to to help other, the project builders, other entrepreneurs, to fulfill their ambitions and their dreams and their usage of blocking technology. So that is, that is, that is the answer. What? How about you? Jason,

Oh, wow. I think that's a good question. I think I draw in. I when I was in college, I wrote a paper about democratization, and what were some of the principal driver, drivers of democracy. And one of the things I came up with eventually was sort of money and and freedom around money, right? And sort of Bitcoin. And when I saw Bitcoin, which happened a few years later, I was like, wow, this is exactly, you know, what I was thinking about from a perspective of, you know, increasing freedom in the world. And it just sort of, you know, slotted, slotted right in but I'm but, so, yeah, that would be neat. But I'm curious, you mentioned, you know, you're on the forefront, obviously, since you're talking to a lot of these entrepreneurs that are building, like, the next generation identity and security DApps, I'm just curious, what do you see on the horizon? Like, what's like, the most exciting thing that you see on the horizon for us?

Oh, that is a very good question. So to be quite honest, I'm not sure. I think what I'm actually looking forward to the most is some of more of these regulatory. Legal legal frameworks to emerge so we can integrate more with traditional systems, and we can get more innovation created in test environments and sandboxes where it's being sort of properly overlooked with the proper regulatory guidelines, right? Because I think at the end of the day, that is what also, excuse me, what will spur, sort of the next wave of adoption with this technology, and when that will happen? It's not 100% sure, but we know that there's a lot of resource research and resource capacity being thrown into these commissions that is defining these new regulatory bodies and regulatory frameworks that will sort of allow for this to happen. So if you ask me, then that is what we are waiting a lot for, and keep on waiting for until it comes.

Do you think that there's, I know this is such a question of the times. But do you think that there is a any opportunity at all for AI to to intersect with DID and improve it in any sort of way?

Oh, very much. I mean, if you go in on concordium.com/ai you're actually seeing how Concordium verification and AI accountability works hand in hand. So right now we have a at the heart sort of AI innovation, a lot of digital twins being created, a lot of AI avatars being created, and a lot of content coming from these. And right now there's a lot of fake content coming from these. These can both be from presidents, prime ministers, celebrities, high standing business, men or women, and that's a problem. So Concordium, sort of is utilizing its web free ID infrastructure for AI companies were offering a more robust framework for issuing digital certificates, and this is basically a digital certificates that forges a verifiable link between AI avatars and their creators utilizing whatever AI model is at play, and by that connection, you are then ensuring that each avatar adheres to ethical standards and is recognized as legitimate within that AI ecosystem, Right? So we have a use case called fry AI. They are a digital twin, a digital avatar company, and they are utilizing exactly concordance web three ID technology to embed this digital identity within their digital twins. And I think that is a perfect answer to your question, right? Because that exactly showcases how you have decentralized digital identity verification with AI. That is sort of highlighting the more practical utility of those two technologies. So you have aI sort of as being groundbreaking, and then you have blockchain keeping it a little bit in check, ensuring that you have a safe, verifiable environment, that this can be developed underneath and with,

yeah, yeah, It's gonna be really interesting to see how those, how this intersect, and how that actually, you know, plays out. I think in the future, we're almost out of time, sort of so just as sort of as a cap, I'm curious. You know, what's your personal philosophy? What keeps you going during the bear markets? Just curious.

Well, I think it, that is exactly what I was mentioning before. It's the drive and energy you get from speaking to to found us and entrepreneurs and developers on a daily basis, seeing their drive and their just innate and 100% believe in this technology, in this space, and then you utilizing that energy and turning it into your right? I mean, it's just, it's basically impossible not to keep on being in this space when you are met with so much entrepreneurial spirit and an ambitious, ambitious forward thinking within this space. So when you ask me, I think that would be the that would be it,

yeah, for sure. I think I would definitely second that. I mean, I did a lot of investments, I heard a lot of pitches. Think I heard like 1000 pitches over like a seven month period. And we made a lot of investments too. And it was really, just really, really one of the most rewarding things I did, because you're just talking to all these founders. A lot of them have stars in their eyes. Some of them are also, you know, firmly grounded. And then, you know, a lot of them are working and just cutting edge technology and like, that's, there's nothing sort of more fun than being able to see that up close, you know. And I think that both of us, both from you from an ecosystem perspective. And then, you know, adlunam, we launched a lot of projects so we end up, you know, meeting a lot of them. But yeah, I think that's, that's kind of what keeps, keeps us going, for sure. Great. Yeah, this has been an incredibly insightful session. I want to extend a big thank you to Hoja, to you, of course, for sharing such valuable knowledge with us over at adlunam today, and huge thanks to all of you. Tune in, ask questions. Apologies. We didn't get to questions this time. But if you tweet, Holger Fischer Fisher , I'm sure you know he'll answer the interesting ones for sure.

Jason, I got to speak a lot this time. Let's do a second session later this year where we maybe can get to some some questions, and then hopefully also be a little bit more development we can talk about right it's been very idealistic and philosophical right now, which is also good, but let's get that schedule another one later this year, and then we can take more questions.

Sounds great. Looking forward to we'll definitely connect about that. Thank you so much for your time. Everybody have a great day and see you at the next session. Thanks.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Ciao,

thank you.