Jean Nunnally joins us today to talk about her path to unschooling her two children. Although not originally in her life’s plan to unschool, Jean decided to look into unschooling as a young mother and never went back. You’ll learn Jean’s story from a traditional schooling background to adapting to her own children’s learning needs. She’s written “Success Without School: Unschooling My Children From Birth to College”, a book that speaks to all whether you unschool or not.

EPISODE TAKEAWAYS (what you’ll learn):

• From a traditional upbringing to the unschooling path
• Jean’s history as a people pleaser and what it’s taken to break the pattern
• How intuition and signs from the Universe led Jean to unschooling
• Seeing our institutions in a new and different light

About The Guest:

Jean Nunnally is a veteran unschooling mother of two children from their birth until college. Traditionally educated in public school in Blount County, she completed a degree in finance at the University of Tennessee before starting a 14-year career with Shell Oil in Houston, Texas. She left the business world after becoming a mom and was subsequently accredited as a La Leche League leader and eventually became a board-certified lactation consultant. Her unusual story detailing her unschooling journey--what she learned from the experience and the broader implications of this philosophy of choice and self-determination--shows that self-directed learning is not only a possible alternative to conventional school, but highly successful and a critical concept for the future of education to boot.

Find Jean Nunnally here:

Website

Facebook

Instagram

About the Host:

Maureen Spielman is the Founder of Mystical Sisterhood, a podcast dedicated to bringing more joy, healing and expansion to the world. She is a seasoned life coach who supports individuals through one-on-one coaching, groups and workshops.

Connect with Maureen:

● Check out her Instagram: @maureeenspielman

● Learn more about her work at www.maureenspielman.com

● Want to join our Mystical Sisterhood Membership community? Find out more here: https://www.maureenspielman.com/mysticalsisterhood

● Email Maureen at hello@maureenspielman.com to inquire about coaching, podcasting & speaking engagements

● Want to view Mystical Sisterhood episodes? Visit the Mystical Sisterhood YouTube Channel here: Magical Sisterhood Youtube

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Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is

Maureen Spielman and I sit down today with Jean Natalie to talk

about her work her life and her book success without school,

unschooling, my children from birth to college. There is a lot

in this episode, everything from veering off a traditional

upbringing, a traditional path, to do something that was

courageous and out of the box, transforming people pleasing

behaviors to standing up for what feels right to you,

following your intuition and leaning into our children's

needs, whether we choose to go down a path of unschooling, or

they're in traditional school. We kind of cover all topics

today, and I'm grateful for Jean for being here. Enjoy the

episode, and let's get to it. Hey there, welcome to mystical

sisterhood. This is your host, Maureen Spielman. I started the

show to highlight the intuitives, healers and other

courageous women that I've met along my journey and continue to

meet. Through amazing interviews, I seek to ask

insightful questions to uncover ways in which you the listener

can apply the wisdom and knowledge to your own life. I

believe that we're all in this together. So sharing healing and

joy, and bringing community together is both my passion and

purpose. If you'd like to learn more about the mystical

sisterhood community I'm building, please visit www

mystical sisterhood.com See you in the episode. Hey, welcome

back to mystical sisterhood. This is Maureen and I'm here

with Jean Nunnally. I am really really excited today Jean to be

with you. We have a mutual friend Zenith who introduced us

and in Zenith had this really bright light bulb come come to

her and say like, Oh, I think these two would be good

together. And so welcome to our space, we're gonna talk about a

lot of things. The topic, I always say like the topic is

this, and then we'll uncover what else is meant to come up.

But you are the author of a book called success without school,

and really an expert it within yourself and in your life and

unschooling, but I just want to start there and say, you know,

there is so much to share today, but a big hearty welcome to you.

Thank you so much. And thank you for having

me. I mean, I'm truly truly honored to be a part of this

podcast, because I it's, it's amazing for me,

thank you, I'm so happy. You know, there's,

there's so many places we could start. And when I was sort of

compiling notes, and reading through the book success without

school, just hold it up for those who are going to be

watching on YouTube, so they can see it. And we'll provide links

later, but just this idea that, from what I can glean, you had a

pretty traditional upbringing, and sort of the way you were

brought up, and, you know, going through college and getting a

job after college, and it was pretty, you know, what I'd say

is traditional. And then I, for me, when I think of we're going

to look at a little bit the differences between homeschool

and unschooling, but wow, like, to me, it's such this courageous

embrace of a path for your children to take. And so we'll

maybe we'll start at, you know, tell us a little bit about your

upbringing and your home life and maybe even your school life

as a youngster.

Right. So yeah, you're absolutely spot on. It was a

very traditional, conventional sort of upbringing. Certainly,

my, my, I had a wonderful home life very stable. Mom, dad, two

older brothers, and very traditional schooling, other

than I'd started out at a very small, tiny little rural county

school. And so my schools were fairly small, but again, very

traditional. I was, you know, the a student, I was the people

pleaser, the teacher pleaser, the teacher's pet kind of thing.

And, really, I always thought of my education as being really

good in school being really good. And it kind of wasn't

until I was unschooling my own kids that I started to see that

there was a there was a bit of a damage done to me by school. And

I didn't like I said, it took me a long time to realize that for

a long time, I would say yes, I had a great school situation,

but now I'm doing something different. And now I sort of

realized that a lot of that school This structure was was

creating the people pleaser that I grew into. And it's something

that I'm still trying to unwind today. And I'm still stuck with

being very much a people pleaser. And I know school is

not the only influence on that. But it was a lot of an influence

to try to be, you know, you're set up to be only good if you do

these things. You know, that's what makes you worthy is if you

make these grades, if you do these things, and you're not,

you're not ever given the message that you're worthy, just

because of who you know, just because

yeah, yeah. So that's interesting, because

you're saying you had a good experience in school, you didn't

feel particularly affected by it in many ways. And it led you to

a big university, and a big job after that. And so that really

wasn't the reason your that you knew in the moment, the reason

why you chose to go down the path of unschooling that

happened for you afterwards?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have

terrible situation in school. Like I said, I was a good test

taker, so I make good grades that came in things came very

easily to me. Yeah, it was, it was after I actually had kids

and started to meet people who were doing things a little bit

differently and seeing how their kids were, well, a lot of it was

at the beginning, I you know, people were talking about

getting your kids into preschool at really what I felt like, was

a very, very young age. And I motherhood was such an amazing

time. For me, it was such an amazing transformation. And I'm

with my, you know, my daughter, who's the older and just loving

being a mom, and suddenly I'm getting these messages that

well, you need to start looking for a preschool and I, I

thought, well, I don't want to, I'm not ready to give her up,

you know, I'm not ready to hand her over to some stranger for

the better hours of the day. And that kind of threw me into a

little bit of a panic. And that's when someone handed me a

book about that was a compilation of different

homeschooling methods or philosophies. And I read this

one, you know, this one article by John Holt, who kind of became

the my guru. And it just totally resonated with me, and it made

me realize it just made me realize that's what I wanted for

my kids. I wanted my kids to, you know, I just seemed, it just

seemed like the right thing. I don't know, I'm just guessing

the universe was speaking to me in that way. But yeah, it was

just very, very powerful. John Holt's the one that coined the

term unschooling. So, and he's kind of he was a champion of

that methodology, really a very amazing guy.

That's amazing. There's a lot of a lot

right there. You know, I want I want to talk about unschooling

in a minute. But the first time I met you, when we had the

conversation, it was striking to me that, to me listening to your

story, you were leaning into your intuition from a really

young age, let's just say or a young place in your life. And we

don't always know that intuition is the thing that's guiding us.

And it's our it's, it's unique to us, because the path that you

have walked is unique to you. And so, but the story was around

when you were a very young mom, and I believe breastfeeding, but

you were around the other Lecce mothers and you saw like a way

of being with their children. That was super like you're

saying, when someone handed you the book, The John Holt book is

like you saw something in it that spoke to you that made

sense to you? And do you think of that as intuition? Or do you

now know that it may have been or how did you follow because a

lot of times, we see things we like, but then our our, like

cultured mind is the one that says, but that's not possible.

That's not That's not possible. It's not reasonable. It's it's

kind of ridiculous, whatever

it is. Yeah, no, I think it is. I think it was

intuition. I don't know that. I would have called it that at the

time or noticed it, but maybe I just always had I don't know,

because I always grew up thinking that there were

possibilities that there wasn't anything that was impossible.

And for some reason, I can't really tell you because I did

grow up in a very conventional sort of family. I don't know the

unconventional sort of appeals to me and things just when

things resonate with me they're, they're strong than the idea is

strong.

So yeah, sure.

I

you had a couple examples in the book to

the One, you had a story about when you were little, because

what you're saying to me right now, I believe to be very true

is how you said it was just attractive to be unconventional

or. And I remember those parts of me that too, like when I was

a young girl, there were things that maybe a parent would say,

and I'd rise up a little bit indignantly and think like, oh,

that's not my truth. And isn't that interesting? Because we do

have these, the, the beauty of, you know, when we're born and in

just our light, and all those things, and then we get kind of

pulled away from it from school and from our family, and

whatever happens to us in life, but I can remember those times

as a kid, of, of being like, gosh, dang it, that's not my

truth. And so you I think you have a story about a project

when you were a little girl, and just that it just didn't fit who

you are at the time, it was just it was constraining you and

keeping you in a box in a way. I thought that was important. I

have,

I think very strong, that like not specific

instances, but many, many little instances of feeling dismissed

as a child, by adults, well meaning, but adults that said,

oh, there's no you can't understand these things that

we're talking about. Or you shouldn't be in this

conversation. This, you know, because you're a child. And in

my, in my side, my brain, I was thinking, I, I have all the

capacity to have this conversation. I don't understand

why you can't see that in the. And so I think because they

really remember that feeling of a very frustrating feeling. It's

still a kind of a trigger for me, if somebody if I feel I'm

being dismissed by somebody unfairly, I didn't want my kids

to feel that it just felt so disrespectful. And so I think I

always wanted to treat my children as though they were

already they came into this world existing as whole beings.

And as people that granted, they don't have the experience yet.

So the difference in our lives is, you know, I would tell my

kids, I'm not any smarter than you. Because I mean, how do you

measure smartness? How do you measure IQ, I, the only thing I

have is, I have years of experience on you. That's my,

that's my only difference. And my experience is not necessarily

going to be relevant for you. Because you have your own life

to lead. You have your own path to go. So I can share my

experience. And you can choose to listen to it or not, but it's

your life, your life. You're living your life, not me. I'm,

I'm here to help you to facilitate and guide you. But

I'm not going to tell you that is above my paygrade to tell you

what, what you should be doing based on what I think you know,

so yeah, so a lot of it was just that memory of feeling what it

felt like to be dismissed as a child that drove drove me. Yeah,

that was operating inside of you. And I'm

blown away. Because, you know, when we got together is a lot of

what you speak about are the tenants of conscious parenting,

you know, that I studied and Dr. Shefali is Institute they really

are conscious parenting is seeing your child is that whole

being is taking away that hierarchial type of structure

that is like I know more than you therefore you should listen

to me and do all of my roles. And just a willingness to let

your child be your guide. Because what I'm hearing you say

to is you didn't go into this with any master plan of I am

here to teach them. It was more it sounds like it was more. I

want to empower them to be internally driven by what is

guiding them, right. Yeah,

we can collaborate. We can work together. But yeah, I

never wanted them to see me as, and that's why I really don't

like the word teacher. Because it has this connotation in our

culture of I must impart to you something that's important. It's

one thing if I go to someone, like if I come to you and say,

Maureen, you have this information, Will you teach me

this? Then I've given you permission, okay. And I And I've

asked, I've requested teaching, but for you to say gene, you

must know you must learn what I have. And I say well, I don't

necessarily want that. That to me is it's it's bullying kind

of, you know, it's it's, it's an we you know, we downplay it but

to me, a school situation is kind of a bullying situation

where there's a Each year at the front of the room that's telling

the kids what they need to do when they haven't necessarily

wanted that.

Yeah, so it's really an invitation to take a

look at how conventional school is structured, which we know

it's such a behemoth that it's, that will change. Right? Yeah.

And I like I do like your messages, though, because I

think that, you know, for whatever a family chooses for

their kids, the elements that, you know, this is why I think

it's, it's sometimes interesting, like your book is

called success without school, unschooling, my children from

birth to college. But this is, there's so much in this book

that's valuable for everybody. So we sometimes we can't be

fooled by what the title of a book is, yes, if that particular

population wants to read this book, then this is for you. But

I think there's so much more that's for everybody. And for

me, like, looking at these ways that well, how does my child

feel like if they're in conventional school? How are

they feeling if this is, if it's presented in a certain way, or

even as a teacher, or, you know, we can we can do things at home,

like, oh, I as your parents, I consider your your teacher, your

guide, you know, and just start to so I think that conversation

is so valuable for anyone on either side of, of the choice, I

guess, because I think that one thing I was thinking about when

I was reading the book was like, how things can also I'm trying

to jog my memory is just like sometimes how, Oh, I know what

it was that there can be the rightness or wrongness put on

things and that it's like, this choice is good. And this choice

is not good kind of thing. But what I saw, and we can jump into

the unschooling part of it is where I'm not, I'm, I'm a

listener today to in that I don't know a lot about

unschooling, and I'm, I'm fascinated by it. I, I feel like

like my projections on to unschooling have always been

like, wow, you know, those families are super brave,

because I don't know if I could take that on yet. I love this

concept of really learning driven in from internally,

instead of the outside, you have to have these grades, you have

to take these, ask anyone that, you know, I know locally. And

just like standardized testing, I just never really vibed with

it at all. And I think I don't think it's great. And when I

would drop off my daughter for the LSAT and she would be just

in complete tears and just to see those that fallout from it

that really does does affect children deeply. And I don't

know where I was going with that, but just the continuum,

and I think it was around. When you talk about that your kids

were at home being unschooled, yet they would have playdates

with kids who went to a traditional school or they would

have you know playdates with kids who were homeschooled or

unschooled. And they so one of these misperceptions was that

you don't have as rich of a social life if you're

unschooled. So I mean, we can start there with unschooling,

but what are like? And what are your kind of hallmarks of the

unschooling experience or John Holt's or whatever you want to

share?

Well, definitely to your point about socialization,

which is something that we get asked a lot, and it's probably

easy for people to think about it as you must be in a vacuum,

you know, maybe your kids don't see because we're so used to the

structure of school, a bunch of kids all together with one

teacher at the front. And the idea of, you know, you don't

have that classroom setting, how do you meet people? But so yes,

there's some intention will be there was some intention on my

part around trying to find a group of people, which I did, I

was lucky to we were in Houston. So we had a big city, lots of

people around and, and enough to find a little core group of

families with kids roughly in that same age range, who all

were interested in just playing or doing things. So we didn't

all have the exact same educational philosophy but we

had very similar parenting philosophies. So I feel like all

of us were very respectful parents, we had similar values.

And that was very important to me because I wanted my kids

around other kids who were happy and grounded and feeling you

know, feeling good from that standpoint, because I think what

I've noticed is that when you're happy, you don't you don't bully

other people. You don't you aren't mean you aren't petty,

you know that that usually comes from a feeling of lack in in a

person themselves. So having having a peep having people

around that we're all happy. And on that same wavelength with

her, it was really important to me. And yeah, you know, it was

there's no lack of activities for kids if you look. And if you

don't find what you want, you make what you, you make

something happen, you know, which isn't that hard either

especially because the nice thing about being homeschooled

or unschooled is that you've got all these hours during the day

when a lot of institutions or teachers, music, teachers,

museums, they're not busy, because and so they've got time.

And they're happy to fill those hours with some way, especially

with kids who are eager to learn because the kids that are you

know, when you're doing something, because you've chosen

that activity, that's the thing that all all the coaches and

teachers that we dealt with, were constantly saying about our

group, a group of kids, gosh, everybody is so they're so

happy. They're so enthusiastic, they're so nice to each other.

And I said, Well, that's because they want to be here. And they

know that they don't have to be here, they could leave at any

time they got control, they have agency to, to leave if they

don't like it. And so yeah, of course, they're happy, because

they're always doing something they wanted to do.

Yeah, it's a beautiful byproduct for kids to

be able to experience the choice. As a mother, it's also

you take on a lot. And I imagine that looks like a lot of

different ways. You know, I think that you were able to stay

home with your children. And so there's probably, do you see

certain subsets of the population of unschoolers?

Working? And then how does that work? Do guides come in? And are

rotating houses? Or what kind of what does that look like?

Oh, good question. So yes, certainly, I would say it's

unusual for, let's say, working parents to unschool. But it's

not impossible. And a lot of people do it. And here's the

thing is, so instead of thinking about I'm my kids need to be

taught or they need to be in a learning environment. Try to

shift the paradigm to consider that your children are able to

learn, they come wired into this life to learn, they started from

the time they were babies, learning about their their

limbs, learning how to communicate learning how to

ambulation how to get places, that doesn't stop when they are

two, or three, or four or seven or eight, they're always able to

learn. So rather than think I have, they have to be I have to

be there teaching them all they need is an environment that safe

to to work in. So some, what some single moms even have done

is they make sure their children are in a in when they're too

young to be left on their own, that they're in a safe place

where there are some resources for them to play. Because

remember, we think of play as adults in our, in our culture,

we think of play as a bad thing as a frivolous thing. But play

is the work of children it is how they're learning, they're

trying things on they, they try on ideas and, and emotions and

in all kinds of things, you know, from from physical block

towers to, you know, emotional ideas. And so that's what they

need is just an environment to play in for the years until

they're until they're able to really start to teach

themselves. So in a way a parent could, it could theoretically

never be with their kids very much. Maybe No, never. But

during the hours that they're home, they can read together,

they can talk together they can be together. And if the parent

is trusting that the child is in a safe place and can learn on

their own, that's really all that they need. And you're

empowering your child to say I'm able to do this I'm capable of

learning on my own and then all you have to do as a parent is

just provides resources around those can be books, those could

be internet, those could be other people, they could be

teachers, they could be tutors, not necessarily like but so

there's just so many different ways.

So would you say that wood wood the way you

structure it in your own home, say okay, you know, roughly from

this hour to this our our our school hours and so there would

be that expectation for the kids.

Well, again, I didn't do it that way and we We're just

living life. Like we would get up in the morning. They would do

their thing I would do my thing we'd be in the house together,

they would they could they had access to me all the time if

they needed me if they had a question, but I wasn't directing

their play. And so the idea of school hours is, again, it's a

paradigm that we're taking from our the culture of school saying

that there should be but if you look at human beings, at

sometimes my my role model was, was more j in the cave, the cave

woman, you know, what was what would Jane do used to be what

was in my head, like, she didn't have school, she had a life.

They were they were living life, okay, they were looking for

food, they were finding, you know, making shelter, they were

enjoying nature, they were traveling, they were doing those

things. So, you know, that's the kind of model that I was

thinking about, for, what are we doing? How are we playing? How

are we interacting? So it's just, you know, we talked a lot

we did things we were in the car together driving to this thing

or that but was very non school ish. It's the word unschooling.

Yeah. Thanks for shedding light on that. And,

and I love the the, the just taking a look at at a structure

that's existed for a long time. And just saying, curious about

this, you know, does this work for our family? Do we want to do

it a little bit different? I'm curious about your experience,

as you began to kind of step into getting curious about how

these days were going to go how you wanted your kids to learn,

I'm sure that it gradually unfolded as the days and months

and years went by. But did you see yourself looking at other

parts of your life differently? I don't know if that makes

sense. But just like, I feel like you your path, the way you

describe it, it's a lot of letting go of what you thought

was right, what you thought, or you may not even thought it was

right, what you what you were told to do. And so you

questioned a lot, like, does this work for me anymore? And

did that become sort of a more of a life mantra is that? I

guess, yes, it did very much. So and I think I talked

about a little bit in the book, you know that there were some

pillars that really fell for me, one of which was our western

medicine sort of fell, because I had always trusted that, as you

know, as a as a young child, that the medical community had

my best interest at heart just that seemed normal to me. And it

wasn't until I had a baby, and was going to see pediatrician

that I realized I was getting advice. Again, well meaning

advice, that that was not really in my best interest. It was a

cultural norm. But it wasn't necessarily what was working for

me, what was working for my baby. And that's that little

shift, that little paradigm shift started to call into

question all of the, of the medical side. So not that all

medical advice is bad. And please don't get me wrong. I

don't mean that at all. But there are times when profit

comes before people. And I I never knew that before. I mean,

this was something that was a revelation to me at the time.

And now I am able to see through a different lens to see, not

everything is as it seems. So that was a one big pillar to

fall. And then institutional religion was a little bit of a

pillar for me too. Again, not all institutional religion is

bad, but there are times when the institution itself is more

important to people than the than the message or the people

themselves that are in it. So that was another sort of pillar

to follow because I really, I wanted a more a more direct

relationship with my Creator. And I like that I can I can have

that now I can have I can choose my own beliefs. It's a choose

your own adventure story. I can choose the beliefs that I want

to keep, and I can let go of the ones that don't serve me. So

it's a it's a very, you know, there's a very conscious choice

on my part for that. And then the third one was kind of

education is stuck because I was already those other two pillars

had sort of fallen for me. In other words, I It's like the

curtain had been open to you know, Dr. Oz had been revealed.

And so I now saw things in a different light. And education

was in the same way I realized, gosh, you know, education as we

know, it isn't really how people learn. You know? We know this,

we know that the best learning happens in a place where you're

able to fail. And you're able to fail as often as you need to, in

order to gain the skill. But you know, most of our conventional

educational are not places where you want to fail, you're,

you're, you're either punished for fail failing, you're shamed

for failing. And so you when you when you stop failing, you stop

learning. Yeah, so we, you know, we know this, this is, this

isn't Yeah, information.

And it makes sense to that a child, that they

would be feeling so much if they did fail in the conventional

sense, because you're talking about failing in a completely

different way. Right? It's just like, the way you're talking

about it is like, this is life, we all fail. We all and like, we

all have our strengths. And then we all have our areas of

challenges, and, and what are they for you? And how do we get

through that, but I feel like sometimes in some institutions,

and it can be across all three that you named, there can be,

you know, based on what happens to us or our choices, we can

have overlays of shame, because it just takes away what we

really know. And then we're being told we don't know. And

yeah, I related to when we had about the medical because I to

hold Western and alternative complementary both, you know,

gently in both hands. And you know, through my journey,

there's been things told to me that are not resonant. And it's,

it's a retraining I've had to do to, to trust myself. And that

was a theme. I think, when I started reading the book, it was

maybe you said it, but it was interesting, the journey. And

that that just seemed like a big theme of the book and your

journey. Yeah, very much so. And like I hear you saying it's just

like the unfolding the unraveling, the willingness, the

curiosity. Yeah, I liked it's kind of going back but I had

written down, because it was a John hold quote, that you use in

the part one of your book, but it said trust children, nothing

could be more simple, or more difficult, difficult, because to

trust children, children, we must first learn to trust

ourselves. And most of us were taught as children that we could

not be trusted. And I therein lies the work I do with coaching

is that everything and this is the part I like, when you talk

about self care, and you went into that part of the book is

that or what was being brought up for you to heal in the

process of unschooling really, and but just this idea, most of

us were taught as children that we could not be trusted. So

again, we are taken away from our truth, our intuition, our

knowing, which is I know, it's a cornerstone of unschooling, like

we want these kids to hold on to this as much as possible. But

did you see that in yourself? I know you did. But like in the

book, talk about what you learned about yourself and what

what you had to shed from your early days?

Oh, so much. Yes. So much. And I, you know, I was, I

was listening to one of your podcasts earlier, the

relationship, one, I can't remember their names, but they

did such a nice job of talking about it. And he was talking

about trigger points that came up, I think, for him, it was

maybe a son screaming that kind of triggered him. And then he

had to realize through some therapy that Oh, that was a

trigger because of something that happened or didn't happen

for me in my childhood. And now that I know that I can deal

better with that, right. So you it was a wound for him that he

needed to heal. And I all through the time of unschooling

my kids and being with them in this very, you know, natural

sort of very authentic way. I was constantly meeting up with

trigger points that needed to be worked out. And I'm not saying I

was great at it, and there were a lot of things that I still

haven't worked out, but but they were coming up for me and they

were our situation really forced me. At least this is how it felt

to me to look at those and deal with those in a way because I

was, you know, it's kind of like I was because I was wanting to

be very authentic to my kids. I was very naked emotionally in

front of them. They were seeing everything they were so I

couldn't I couldn't hide. And I didn't want to hide because I

realized that everything that I worked through was benefiting

them as well as it was benefiting me. So I used to tell

people that are that are on this unschooling journey that have

started down this journey and they get it The work is not on

your children, the work is on you. And everything that you are

doing just automatically falls into a benefit for your kids. So

the work, that's what I fell is that the unschooling work is

really very personal. And it was, you know, it was hard, but

it was also very fulfilling.

So that makes sense. Yeah. And it's like you,

I appreciate the transparency and vulnerability and ties to

Leslie in Juan's episode, because that was such a nugget

that he was talking about that is life principle and guide, but

that you knew you had awareness that you were showing up in

certain emotions, and in all ways, and hat and, and maybe at

first thought that, well, this is good, it's got to be good,

because they can see it all. And we're all we all have the range

of emotions as humans, and then figuring like all, but maybe I

need to do more work underneath that, and maybe I and, but I do

love that portion of so often, because so many homes of our

origins, we, of course, were coming from parents who, you

know, my grandpa, my grandfather was in the Depression, you know,

they didn't have food he didn't, but all the suppression that

comes down all the, the misplaced emotions and the, you

know, not expressed, and it's just all like that continuum of

all of our lives of how do we get to the most healing and

healthiest expression of ourselves?

Right. So a lot of honesty, and I want to make a

point is this honesty, I, you, you mentioned earlier, that this

book could be for somebody that really isn't even interested in

homeschooling, or unschooling, and one of the things that I've

been asked is, What would I have to say to somebody that, can't

do that, or doesn't want to do that, and there is something

really important that that parents can do, and I know,

you'll know, this from maybe from conscious parenting is, is

to be honest with your children. Because even if you're having to

send your school, your child to school, and maybe they're not

all that happy with school, if you're at least honest, and say,

what the reason I'm sending you to school is because I have to

work and I don't have any other place for you to go, and I can't

or I'm not able yet to to do unschooling I'm, it's, I don't

have the capacity for that right now, I don't have the bandwidth

for it right now. And so therefore, I need you to be in

this place, but understand that I love you more than the grades

you're making, or you know, so just be being honest. Suddenly,

the child says, Oh, they're really that child knows when

you're being really honest with them or not. I mean, they're

totally they got they got the radar down. And so when, when

they hear that you're really being honest and authentic, oh,

my goodness, the relationship goes to a whole new level of, of

credibility, you know, your credibility is, is intact, you.

So being honest, and you can start that at anytime, even if

you've not been honest. If before, if you've not been

honest with yourself, and therefore you've not been honest

with him. Every little onion layer that you peel off is a

hell, you know, every little, every little change is a step

forward.

I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I

think that I mean, the whole conversation is, or a lot of our

conversation today is how do we put down our fears? And what

what are we afraid of? And, you know, I think, yeah, there's a

lot to be said there. And if we are transparent with our

children, and if we show up, you know, in our emotions, or even,

you know, I'm pretty transparent about, you know, I don't like

this particular part of what's going on, or this kind of thing.

And I think my partner will be more like, Maureen, you

shouldn't say that. Because the fear is, if I say that, then the

child's going to say, Oh, well, then heck, I'm not you know, I'm

leaving. I like if mom thinks that then I'm not studying for

that test, or whatever it is, but that's not really what's

happening beneath the surface, what's happening is your child

find you relatable. They're they think, like, Oh, my parent

understands me, she, she gets what I'm going through, she's

seeing that this is hard. For me. It's, I really think that

that's true. And that that's all our kids are really looking for

is that relatability

Right. Right. They so thrive on authenticity. Yeah.

And they need us to, they need us to lead the way on that. And

that also kind of comes back to another really important thing

that my husband and I were were, there was a big underlying

underlining of our parenting is personal responsibility. You

know, so when you're authentic with your child, you're taking

personal responsibility for your emotions, and why and the fact

that you feel them, and you don't need to apologize for the

fact again, you're, you're showing the way by being honest

with yourself by opening up and understanding like, again, you

know, when there's a trigger, saying to yourself, gosh, why?

Why do I have why? Why do I have a fear there? What's what's

behind that fear? What's behind that feeling? What's behind that

clench that I feel in my stomach? And go back into that

and and delve in and say, Where did that come from? And is that

true? Or is it if because it may not be true anymore? Maybe it

was true once upon a time, and it's not true anymore. And then

you can go, oh, I can let that go again, or I can, you know, I

can overcome that fear. And so yeah, a person taking personal

responsibility is very important, as the parent because

you're teaching your children, that's what you should do, you

need to take personal responsibility.

Absolutely, absolutely love that personal

responsibility. And, you know, the word that before we started

recording today is just giving yourself permission, because I

have had to give myself permission around one of my

children's school experience, and, you know, a spiritual

teacher of mine had pointed out at one time, and it's just like,

going to a doctor and speaking your truth or, but she did, she

did, it was very supportive of me, because she was able to say,

Maureen, this is a really big deal speaking up to the

institution, because it's not like a conscious belief that we

don't want to hear from parents, but that it's running underneath

the system somewhere of like, we've got a time clock, and

these meetings are X amount, 20 minutes, and, you know, so I had

to, I have to take that responsibility, I have to go

into myself, and, you know, really stand up for my child and

my belief systems. So it's kind of like we're working some

symbiotically. I don't know if that's the right word. But it's,

it's knowing that, you know, even for people who choose

traditional conventional school, use your voice, give yourself

permission, because if you intuitively know something is

right for your child, and you're getting internal information

that that's true. Don't quiet your voice, keep, you know, keep

on going forward and expressing yourself. Because, you know,

we're teaching our kids this, and we want them to be able to

experience it An example would be I think even I was something

around advocating for yourself. And then, and then like, I think

I'm thinking of my son, and like, then he, over the years,

he's gaining the confidence and the ability to advocate for

himself, only to be told no, when he did it, you know? And so

it's like, wait a minute, if that doesn't feel right, let's

go back and just have the conversation. It doesn't have to

be. I think another way we were all like a lot of us were raised

was that communication was confrontation. Or I will own

that for myself that it felt like if I had something to say

like it was this big thing. And it's like, no, let's let's all

retrain ourselves, that it's just a conversation. It's just a

conversation. And so you don't your nervous system doesn't have

to go crazy. You don't have to think fear is on the other side.

Something bad's gonna happen. But yeah, I'm going off here.

But that's that's true.

That's true. And I think there was something that

you said about I've lost it. Cold, I know, like when you're

if you're when you're speaking up for your child, one thing

that might be helpful, and this was something that I used to

kind of keep in the back of my mind is, you know, what, if you

were Einsteins mother, or Edison's mother or Steve Jobs,

mother, Beethoven's mother, and everybody's pressuring you, to

have your kid be the same as everybody else, you know, but,

but they're not the same as everybody else. And no kid is

the same as everybody else. So that's why I say like, I truly

believe that every child is a genius. And and the reason I, I

mean, maybe I use that word in ways that other people really

don't like. But to me, every unique individual is so

important to our cosmos. And it's so important that that

unique individual is is allowed to express in their unique way.

So if you if you're going to advocate for your child, try to

think of it and to herbs have not that they're all not not

like a snowflake. I mean, not that everybody's you know, too

delicate to do but but that everybody is unique and that

it's important that everybody is able to express that. So maybe

that would help for a mom, mom or a dad that needs to advocate

for their child and feels nervous about that. It's hard to

do that in an institution because the institution is, is

not set up for that. It's it's just the nature of an

institution. That's how, you know, that's why I didn't that's

really why I wanted out of that institution, because I wanted

the freedom to be able to move.

Yeah. And do that was also well said, thanks

for sharing that beautiful wisdom with the listeners. I

will we haven't even talked about your kids. I know we're

nearing the end. But your kids are, I think in their older 20s

now. And they did, they were homeschooled from birth to 18,

and went on to college educations, which might be

something that people don't know does happen, and you can have

this non traditional approach to education, and still make that

choice when you come to college age.

Right? If that's what you want. I college isn't for

everybody. But yes, absolutely. And in fact, a lot of colleges

love to have homeschoolers, because those kids come in,

they're not burned out, they're not already fried from testing

and everything that they've done, and they're and they're

still very eager to learn. I mean, I know my daughter will

vote, both of my kids went into their classes really engaged,

because that's how they had always been engaged in learning

with, with other teachers or with other kids. You know, when

we did classes, ad hoc little classes, they were always

excited about, about learning it hadn't, learning hadn't been

given a bad name for them. The way it does for some kids, you

know, you say something to a conventional kid about, oh,

this, we're going to do this educational thing, they're going

to be like, I don't want any part of it. Because education

and learning has been given a really bad name for them. It's

distasteful, because they know it's been kind of pressed down

on them. Whereas my kids never had that association. So

learning and educational just seem like Oh, interesting. And

they're still, they're both still super engaged in in

learning and have all kinds of interesting things. They're very

enthusiastic learners.

Wow, that's, that's amazing.

It didn't shut down, which I love.

I know that there's so much more that I'd

want to ask around that. But I'm just, I think the touch points

for me during our interview were, you know, your journey as

a mom, as a woman going through these new choices and new

directions, a new path in your life, trusting, shedding,

letting go of what no longer served, and creating this space,

and also seeing children as a whole and humanity as

individual, unique, creative, you know, abundant, like all

these things that we want for them all, and not for them to

feel limited or told they are something that they never even

were, you know, they didn't give permission to be called

something or limited in that way. And so, I think there's so

many beautiful themes. If people are interested in finding your

work, where should they go, Jean.

So my website is called success without school.com. I

also am on Facebook success without school and on Instagram

success without school. I also have a Facebook page called

trust your child.com. In fact, trust your child. Sorry, trust

your child.com will get you to my web page as well, if they

both do, and there's some blog entries there that I've written

that will help people I think get a little bit more of a view

besides the book, of course, so the books available as an audio

book and ebook or paperback on it all your normal book selling

options.

Thank you. Thanks for sharing your story,

your experience. It's just the beginning. And I'm so happy to

have you here as part of our sisterhood.

Oh my goodness, thank you so much. Yes,

we'll put everything you shared in the

show notes. And yeah, to the listeners. We'll see you next

time. Thanks for listening today.

Thanks for listening to this episode of mystical sisterhood.

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Maureenspielman.com or mysticalsisterhood.com Thanks so