Artwork for podcast Qiological Podcast
032.9 Body, Mind and Spirit • Matt Callison
Episode 3221st May 2018 • Qiological Podcast • Michael Max
00:00:00 00:49:26

Shownotes

Widely known for his pioneering work in sports acupuncture, the guest of this episode joins us for a conversation that reminds us of the deep and varied integration between the layers of being we call body, mind and spirit. 

Additionally we touch on how the trajectory of years and practice can bring us full circle back to basic fundamentals, and that our successes can easily transform into new challenges to overcome. 

Transcripts

Michael Max:

Here we are at the end of this mini series from

Michael Max:

the sports acupuncture Alliance.

Michael Max:

I've got one more interview for you.

Michael Max:

This one with Matt Callison.

Michael Max:

I think you're going to enjoy it.

Michael Max:

Again, much appreciation to the sports acupuncture Alliance and

Michael Max:

to Lhasa OMS for their support and creating this opportunity

Michael Max:

to bring you this unique series.

Michael Max:

Let's jump in now and have a discussion with Matt.

Michael Max:

You guys have probably heard of Matt Callison.

Michael Max:

So I'm not going to go into too many details about this cat.

Michael Max:

Uh, Matt.

Michael Max:

Welcome to qiological.

Michael Max:

Hello, Michael.

Michael Max:

Thank

Matt Callison:

you for having me.

Matt Callison:

It's great to be great to be here

Michael Max:

with you.

Michael Max:

I appreciate it.

Michael Max:

Hey, I'm a little curious.

Michael Max:

What got you started on, on all this stuff.

Michael Max:

Anyway.

Michael Max:

This

Matt Callison:

stuff being, let this stuff

Michael Max:

being well, acupuncture, first of all, what,

Michael Max:

what drew you to acupuncture?

Michael Max:

And secondly, what drew you to the sports accurate?

Michael Max:

Well,

Matt Callison:

I started off as a, as an athletic trainer in, uh, from San

Matt Callison:

Diego state university and getting my, my undergraduate degree in physical education

Matt Callison:

and emphasis in sports medicine and going, studying toward, uh, athletic training.

Matt Callison:

And then.

Matt Callison:

I was a little disenchanted where I was going with my education.

Matt Callison:

And even though I loved the rehabilitation aspect of it, every single part of

Matt Callison:

diagnosing musculoskeletal injury and the mechanics of musculoskeletal injury, where

Matt Callison:

I was going actually as a athletic trainer in the job form was not very attractive.

Matt Callison:

So I sold everything that I had except for my surfboard and a backpack.

Matt Callison:

And I went to Austria.

Michael Max:

That sounds like a good idea.

Michael Max:

It was great.

Matt Callison:

It was great.

Matt Callison:

There was nothing holding me back.

Matt Callison:

And so I'm still involved in sports medicine and it's still intrigued about

Matt Callison:

how sports medicine works, loving, loving, surfing, and loving baseball, and just

Matt Callison:

kind of, uh, uh, sports chock myself.

Matt Callison:

I wanted to end up staying in Australia cause I loved it there and met a

Matt Callison:

man in Perth, Western Australia.

Matt Callison:

That was a physio.

Matt Callison:

They don't have athletic trainers down there.

Matt Callison:

Um, that was a physio that was practicing this voodoo called acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

Now this was in 1992.

Matt Callison:

When this occurred.

Matt Callison:

And so actually, no, we have to take that back to probably 1990.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

So he planted the seed for me.

Matt Callison:

I was, I watched how he was able to get people out of pain.

Matt Callison:

How was he able to put needles into people and change range of motion

Matt Callison:

and change, um, different aspects of that musculoskeletal injury.

Matt Callison:

So he's the one that really planted that seed for me.

Matt Callison:

So then all my way back to, uh, San Diego of my hometown, I

Matt Callison:

ended up visiting a friend and.

Matt Callison:

So it was only going to stay for four days, but ended up teaching at

Matt Callison:

the massage school there and stayed in Maui for about a year and a half.

Matt Callison:

So I taught and learned massage and always was thinking about the acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

And I checked out the acupuncture school in Maui, but it just

Matt Callison:

didn't quite seem like it was at the level that I wanted to go.

Matt Callison:

So it was great learning, massage and learning how to be able to, to

Matt Callison:

structural integration and, and, uh, a myofascial release technique.

Matt Callison:

But I still always wondered about what is this, what is this thing about putting

Matt Callison:

needles in people and manipulating and changing and changing the way people move.

Matt Callison:

That was always intriguing for me.

Matt Callison:

So I ended up going to school at Pacific college of Oriental medicine.

Matt Callison:

That's when it was one campus.

Matt Callison:

In San Diego, only four rooms.

Matt Callison:

So it was awhile ago.

Matt Callison:

That was a while ago.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

And actually when I graduated from school, I didn't call on a cell

Matt Callison:

phone because they weren't out yet.

Matt Callison:

It was actually on a rotary phone.

Michael Max:

Yes.

Michael Max:

I getting yourself gives you and I, and that's okay.

Matt Callison:

That's all right.

Matt Callison:

Um, this licensing.

Matt Callison:

So because of my background in sports medicine, and then it was just, it

Matt Callison:

was, it was a natural bridge to be able to apply traditional Chinese

Matt Callison:

medicine with sports medicine.

Matt Callison:

And that's something that I've been doing for the last 30 years.

Matt Callison:

Really.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So it sounds like you had this deep background, really understanding

Michael Max:

physiology, really understanding anatomy, how the body's put together, how it

Michael Max:

moves, how it connects and you know, how all that works with sports performance.

Michael Max:

Then you had a bit of a walkabout ran into acupuncture and, uh, and

Michael Max:

then you put these two together.

Michael Max:

I'm a little curious and I suspect a lot of the listeners are a bit curious.

Michael Max:

About how the I'm just going to use air quotes here, sports acupuncture, how that

Michael Max:

is, or is different than the kind of stuff that people learn in acupuncture school.

Matt Callison:

Okay.

Matt Callison:

Um, so if I'm understanding your question correctly is let's

Matt Callison:

see if I can repeat this back.

Matt Callison:

Is that is sports acupuncture taught in acupuncture school?

Michael Max:

Oh, no, I hadn't thought to ask the question that way,

Michael Max:

but yeah, let's go with that one.

Michael Max:

I like it.

Matt Callison:

Um, most schools do not teach sports acupuncture because

Matt Callison:

there's a certain curriculum that they need to be able to have taught

Matt Callison:

in order for those students to be able to pass the state board examination.

Matt Callison:

Right, right.

Matt Callison:

There, there's

Michael Max:

an exam that we all, there's a gate we have to

Michael Max:

walk through called the national.

Matt Callison:

Absolutely.

Matt Callison:

Absolutely.

Matt Callison:

So, um, some schools though, Are emphasizing musculoskeletal

Matt Callison:

type of orthopedic acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

I created a class for Pacific college of Oriental medicine,

Matt Callison:

uh, 16 years ago, and it's called treatment of orthopedic disorders.

Matt Callison:

And it's currently being taught at all three campuses and other

Matt Callison:

acupuncture schools are also are picking that up as well.

Matt Callison:

So it's based on my work that I've put together over the last 30 years.

Matt Callison:

And so that is a required class, which is great, but not all

Matt Callison:

schools are going to have that.

Matt Callison:

Um, that, that does bring me to a point.

Matt Callison:

If you don't mind me going off on a little bit of a tangent because orthopedic

Matt Callison:

acupuncture and musculoskeletal type of acupuncture, where it's going in

Matt Callison:

the U S right now, it's a little scary.

Matt Callison:

Students are finding that just by putting acupuncture needles into muscles at

Matt Callison:

certain areas, certain Oscher points.

Matt Callison:

It will make a dramatic effect in range of motion and manual muscle testing.

Matt Callison:

But the traditional Chinese medicine.

Matt Callison:

And probably the supervisors and some of the teachers as well are not emphasizing

Matt Callison:

that every single musculoskeletal injury, every single orthopedic injury

Matt Callison:

is going to have a zone crew component.

Matt Callison:

It's going to have a drag zone who component that either created

Matt Callison:

the injury, or let's say there's a professional athlete in their zone

Matt Callison:

who signs the symptoms is pretty nil.

Matt Callison:

You can still enhance how this person is going to rehab it.

Matt Callison:

Part of traditional Chinese medicines to look, to see how well can this

Matt Callison:

person handle the inflammation from the musculoskeletal injury.

Matt Callison:

And so the TCM practitioner needs to be able to put their hat on.

Matt Callison:

That is musculoskeletal.

Matt Callison:

Figure out what that injury is, but at the same time, what can they treat?

Matt Callison:

Liver spleen, kidney, sand gel, what can they be able to treat in order

Matt Callison:

to be able to enhance the treatment?

Matt Callison:

It's uh, it's, it's something that's a little scary to me is, is where is where

Matt Callison:

musculoskeletal acupuncture is going in the U S and not looking at the internal.

Matt Callison:

Okay.

Michael Max:

So this actually does get back to my question.

Michael Max:

Which is, how is the sports orthopedic, acupuncture different from like the

Michael Max:

TCM that we learn and because a lot of people, you know, we get the TCM

Michael Max:

training and then there's often we don't get the results we're looking for.

Michael Max:

Maybe it's not the right stuff.

Michael Max:

Maybe we just don't know it well enough, which I think is often the

Matt Callison:

case.

Matt Callison:

Yes, I agree.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

I agree.

Matt Callison:

So

Michael Max:

you're using.

Michael Max:

Even if we're dealing with something very, let's just say meat suit level.

Michael Max:

There's a lot of other stuff going on and we need to look at the

Michael Max:

deeper levels of the body we need to, we need to know, not only.

Michael Max:

Anatomy and physiology.

Michael Max:

We need to know our Chinese medicine and put those both together.

Michael Max:

Oh,

Matt Callison:

absolutely.

Matt Callison:

You know, cause I can't tell you how many students that I have

Matt Callison:

talked to that have come up.

Matt Callison:

And they've said that they're not either getting the results with

Matt Callison:

the musculoskeletal treatment or they actually hurt the patient.

Matt Callison:

Because they needle too deeply or too aggressively, or they put the

Matt Callison:

needles in and then they add electric stem without really examining

Matt Callison:

the person's chin blood levels.

Matt Callison:

First doing the, taking the tongue on the pulse and examining like,

Matt Callison:

who is this person with this injury?

Michael Max:

Yeah, you don't want to be doing too much stimulation

Michael Max:

on somebody with blood deficient.

Matt Callison:

That's very true.

Matt Callison:

And then some students will miss the target tissue.

Matt Callison:

Um, some muscles or some points actually need to have a deep needle in order to

Matt Callison:

create a certain effect and some don't.

Matt Callison:

And I think the beauty of traditional Chinese medicine with the tongue and

Matt Callison:

the pulse diagnosis and the questioning and looking at the person's ShaoYin,

Matt Callison:

their spirit is imperative to be able to have a successful musculoskeletal.

Matt Callison:

This

Michael Max:

is so delightful to hear you talking about this because often I

Michael Max:

hear a kind of polarization going on.

Michael Max:

It's like I do TCM or I do internal medicine or, oh no, I just,

Michael Max:

I'm just working on, uh, that's

Matt Callison:

exactly what I'm talking about, Michael, is

Matt Callison:

that it shouldn't be separated.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Well, it's not separate if we're really not tenants to Chinese medicine right

Michael Max:

now, show me where the separation is.

Matt Callison:

There isn't.

Matt Callison:

There is.

Matt Callison:

I've done a human cadaver dissection for over the last 30 years.

Matt Callison:

A lot of them and anybody who has done human cadaver dissection knows

Matt Callison:

that every single cell is connected.

Matt Callison:

Everything's connected along the interstitial fluids and the fascia

Matt Callison:

skin all the way down to the toes from kidney one to do 20 it's all kind of.

Matt Callison:

So you just can't separate that.

Matt Callison:

So it's, it's important for, for those people that are just putting

Matt Callison:

needles in people for lateral epicondylitis or a knee pain.

Matt Callison:

There's just so much more to that.

Matt Callison:

And the reason why I know that is because I used to be one of those.

Matt Callison:

I used to be one of those people that I was getting such great results with a

Matt Callison:

needling motor points, which I researched about 30 years ago and published some

Matt Callison:

work on it in the year 2000 and Sasha, and found that it increases range of motion.

Matt Callison:

And I just got very myopic and, and.

Matt Callison:

Started dealing motor points on people's pain.

Matt Callison:

And then after a while, what would happen is that I was getting a lot

Matt Callison:

of results were great, but about 30% of the time, there's those cases

Matt Callison:

that just did not respond to that.

Matt Callison:

And I needed to look deeper, but I was so busy and, you know, I was in

Matt Callison:

my forties and I was so cocky because things were going so well, you know, you

Michael Max:

know, when you're doing 70%.

Michael Max:

Pretty good.

Michael Max:

That's

Matt Callison:

pretty good.

Matt Callison:

Yeah, but I wanted more.

Matt Callison:

I wanted more.

Matt Callison:

And so that's what really brought me back into understanding and studying the TCM

Matt Callison:

and Zang Fu and the way that life works.

Matt Callison:

This is really funny.

Matt Callison:

I ended up moving to New Zealand and my entire practice, 98% was menopausal

Matt Callison:

women that really forced me to get back into the Zog food because Kiwi

Matt Callison:

men there, they will not get any kind of treatment unless their arms falling

Matt Callison:

off and their arm is falling off.

Matt Callison:

They're going to be holding it and laughing all the way in.

Matt Callison:

But Kiwi, when.

Matt Callison:

They have, you know, they take care of themselves, but the key me, Kiwi men,

Matt Callison:

can't be bothered, you know, seriously.

Matt Callison:

And that's, that's, that's, that's a very serious story.

Michael Max:

That's a profound change.

Michael Max:

It was, but you know what?

Michael Max:

It isn't that sound like it woke you up in a

Matt Callison:

way it's full circle is full circle.

Matt Callison:

And that's where I can be able to sit here right now and comfortably blip.

Matt Callison:

Be able to say that every musculoskeletal injury is going to have a zone for.

Matt Callison:

And if you don't treat that, you're not going to get long lasting results

Matt Callison:

with a majority of your cases.

Matt Callison:

Okay.

Michael Max:

So this raises a question into my mind.

Michael Max:

Are there certain injuries, certain knee injuries or elbow and whatever

Michael Max:

certain injuries that are sort of emblematic of a particular zone Fu.

Matt Callison:

That I can't go that superficial with it.

Matt Callison:

I can't, if I'm understanding you correctly, Michael is to be able to

Matt Callison:

say that lateral epicondylitis will be, uh, will be associated with a

Matt Callison:

certain type of Zong Fu right, right.

Matt Callison:

Okay.

Matt Callison:

Uh, we, we could go ahead and say, because that's going to be large intestine channel

Matt Callison:

that if large intestine, Oregon itself is, is disease or has pathology, then

Matt Callison:

it's going to be reflected in the channel, which does happen, which does happen.

Matt Callison:

But I can't say that every case or a majority of cases of lateral epicondylitis

Matt Callison:

is going to have a large intestine or leave in lung, uh, symptomology.

Matt Callison:

It's it's, it's not that it's not that simple.

Matt Callison:

I mean,

Michael Max:

there's a, we really have to use.

Michael Max:

All the tools we have available that we learned.

Michael Max:

And more and more.

Michael Max:

What other tools would you suggest that other gosh, and

Michael Max:

more, what are you referring to

Matt Callison:

here?

Matt Callison:

Well, continued to study traditional Chinese medicine by, by researching

Matt Callison:

the classics has a lot of information by learning and studying.

Matt Callison:

The scholars, the academics in traditional Chinese medicine that we

Matt Callison:

have afforded to us today and what we just lost a giant, unfortunately with

Matt Callison:

Giovanni, I was very sad, but there are some incredible speakers out there

Matt Callison:

that share their experience, um, that are, are TCM and Zong Fu oriented.

Matt Callison:

And I think it's important to continue to, to, uh, study and

Matt Callison:

research with these people.

Matt Callison:

Now when you can be able to apply that aspect then to what a lifetime study

Matt Callison:

in art and skill of musculoskeletal treatments and assessment, then you've

Matt Callison:

got a pretty good package with that.

Matt Callison:

And personally, I feel like I'm still an infant with it, with

Matt Callison:

how much there is to learn.

Matt Callison:

There's just so much to learn.

Matt Callison:

It's a lifetime of study.

Michael Max:

It's totally endless.

Michael Max:

It really is.

Michael Max:

Yeah, the, the, the Chinese have one of these Chung use, you know, for

Michael Max:

character things that basically says the sea of knowledge is endless.

Michael Max:

There's no horizon, actually the sea of knowledge has no horizon.

Michael Max:

Yeah, yeah,

Matt Callison:

yeah.

Matt Callison:

It's very good.

Matt Callison:

And I like that.

Michael Max:

Hang on.

Michael Max:

I've got this question, just sitting in the back of my mind,

Matt Callison:

percolating percolating.

Michael Max:

I so appreciate this conversation.

Michael Max:

This is.

Michael Max:

This is, this is a little unexpected, you know, we all have our expectations.

Michael Max:

I'm coming to a sports acupuncture conference.

Michael Max:

I'm going to really listen to people talking about the meat suit.

Michael Max:

And here we are talking about, yeah, it's really important.

Michael Max:

And we've got all these other things it's absolutely connected to.

Michael Max:

Oh, I know what the question is here.

Michael Max:

It comes here.

Michael Max:

It comes.

Michael Max:

I'm thinking about athletes and often.

Michael Max:

And when I think about athletes, I think about sort of rarefied

Michael Max:

individuals, they're very focused.

Michael Max:

They train hard, you know, they pay a lot of attention to their body and

Michael Max:

their emotion and their sport and, you know, whatever it is that they're doing.

Michael Max:

I'm wondering if you notice them healing differently.

Michael Max:

Oh, absolutely.

Michael Max:

Then in the general public, in, in, in what ways do you see them

Michael Max:

healing differently and why?

Matt Callison:

Uh, much, faster, much, much faster, uh, professional athletes

Matt Callison:

heal very quickly because their, she and blood is really quite clean and they

Matt Callison:

are so in tune with their, with their body, that their proprioceptive system.

Matt Callison:

Are so in tune that the acupuncture needle can make wonders with

Matt Callison:

that proprioceptive system.

Matt Callison:

Very simply it's less needles with PR with a professional athletes.

Matt Callison:

Prognosis is usually cut by third of half compared to the general public.

Matt Callison:

Um, their diet is really good.

Matt Callison:

Um, so it's, it's really quite easy to be able to get, um,

Matt Callison:

results with professional athletes.

Michael Max:

W when you talk about their chain and blood being cleaner,

Michael Max:

and you talk about, and when I hear you say their proprioceptive sense

Michael Max:

is more enhancement, of course, that wouldn't make sense for any, any athlete.

Michael Max:

It makes me wonder if there's an element of their Shen.

Michael Max:

That is also different.

Michael Max:

I mean, I'm thinking if you have really good proprioception, your self-awareness

Michael Max:

is probably a bit different.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Than the average person walking down the street.

Matt Callison:

That's true.

Matt Callison:

I mean, the Shen's always going to be looked at, right.

Matt Callison:

So with, with professional athletes, their amount of focus and how they've

Matt Callison:

trained themselves, that is part of the discipline that they have.

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

So they've got a huge incentive to get better fast because most

Matt Callison:

professional athletes, depending on sport are making pretty good income.

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

So they, and they've got a

Michael Max:

limited shelf life.

Matt Callison:

That's correct.

Matt Callison:

That's really correct.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

So it's, it's something, they have a lot of incentive to get back onto the field.

Michael Max:

Okay.

Michael Max:

You were mentioning that you've come full circle in, uh, in the medicine.

Michael Max:

I love the story about corn.

Michael Max:

Tinder's treating mostly menopausal women.

Michael Max:

It's it's so funny how life will give us such surprises at times.

Michael Max:

I'm wondering what else you've changed your mind.

Michael Max:

In terms of acupuncture over the past 15 years.

Matt Callison:

Oh, that's interesting.

Matt Callison:

Hm.

Matt Callison:

I wish I had some more time.

Matt Callison:

You'd be able to think about that because I mean, it's been, it's been a while.

Matt Callison:

It's just been a lot of years of, uh, practicing acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

And I think, I think there is a time where I was extremely myopic and the way that

Matt Callison:

I treated was the best way of treating.

Matt Callison:

Musculoskeletal injuries.

Matt Callison:

And the way that I was treating actually increased range of

Matt Callison:

motion better than anything else.

Matt Callison:

And that is just so far from the truth.

Matt Callison:

And so again, full circle, realizing that, you know, that Japanese acupuncture is

Matt Callison:

profound and what it can be able to do.

Matt Callison:

And so soft and so inquiry, I absolutely.

Matt Callison:

You know, so there's also even a, uh, hands-on healing and there's, uh, there,

Matt Callison:

there are so many different aspects of the acupuncture is a Korean hand.

Matt Callison:

Acupuncture works really well.

Matt Callison:

The, uh, Japanese acupuncture works really well and it's just.

Matt Callison:

For changing my mind.

Matt Callison:

I think what it is just to be able to see that the way that I practice

Matt Callison:

is the way that I understand.

Matt Callison:

And so for me to be able to understand, then I can be able to apply that clearly

Matt Callison:

to the patient and the way that I'm doing it is not better than anybody else.

Matt Callison:

It's just the way that I understand.

Matt Callison:

The way

Michael Max:

I practice is the way I understand that.

Michael Max:

Thank you.

Michael Max:

You're welcome.

Michael Max:

I'm I'm not completely sure what that means yet, but you know, sometimes you

Michael Max:

hear something and it just kind of lands and you go, oh, This is something to

Michael Max:

unpack and it won't get unpacked in a couple of days or a couple of weeks.

Matt Callison:

Even you might have to hash that out a little bit.

Matt Callison:

I'm gonna have to hash that

Michael Max:

out a little bit.

Michael Max:

Well, and let our experience hash it out.

Michael Max:

True.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

I mean, the particular view we have of the world very much determines

Michael Max:

what we actually see in the.

Michael Max:

And as our particular perspective changes, there's more that we can see hopefully

Michael Max:

more ways that we can help people as well.

Michael Max:

That's the common

Matt Callison:

goal, you know, that is the common goal.

Matt Callison:

And I think that's what really would sell, separates the successful practitioner

Matt Callison:

to the people that are just getting by is, um, is, is really how much do

Matt Callison:

you really want to help that person?

Matt Callison:

Because if you really want to help that person, you get back into the books you're

Matt Callison:

researching, you're asking questions.

Matt Callison:

You're always, you know, life as a mentor, you always have mentors.

Matt Callison:

I mean, it's a great idea.

Matt Callison:

Just keep asking questions.

Matt Callison:

You know, I've got this case, this, that this out.

Matt Callison:

Have you ever had this before?

Matt Callison:

Just keep asking questions now.

Matt Callison:

So I think all practitioners should never rest on their laurels.

Matt Callison:

All do at certain points in their time, but it's at least in my life

Matt Callison:

when I start resting on my loyals, life has a way of kicking me in the RS.

Matt Callison:

Oh my God.

Michael Max:

I don't know any of us, anyone that I've talked to, that's

Michael Max:

been at this for any length of time.

Michael Max:

There is a developmental place we go through where it's like, you

Michael Max:

know, I'm not too bad at this.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And it's like, I kind of have this dialed in.

Michael Max:

It's really,

Matt Callison:

as soon as you start thinking that you got it

Matt Callison:

all figured out, life is going to kick you right in the caboose.

Matt Callison:

At least that's my

Michael Max:

experience.

Michael Max:

You know, it's been, it's totally been my experience too.

Michael Max:

People come in these days and they go, Hey, Michael max, thank you.

Michael Max:

You got rid of my back pain.

Michael Max:

And it's like, I need to be very careful with.

Michael Max:

Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Max:

I think I got rid of their back pain.

Michael Max:

It's not going to help either of us.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

You know, we're just conduits, you know, we study a lot

Matt Callison:

and in my mind, we are conduits to be able to help that person is in.

Matt Callison:

And it's not really us now might be getting out there for some people

Matt Callison:

that's listening to this, but you know, it's really not, it's not us, it's not

Michael Max:

us.

Michael Max:

And yet there is an element of us that has to be fiercely.

Michael Max:

For it to be effective.

Michael Max:

That's true.

Michael Max:

That's very

Matt Callison:

true.

Matt Callison:

So many of our contradiction, well, we are the applicators, but

Matt Callison:

then who's, who's when you're, when you're, here's a good one.

Matt Callison:

So when you're developing a treatment plan or protocol and you have a new

Matt Callison:

patient, you're trying to think, okay, do I have this diagnosis?

Matt Callison:

Correct.

Matt Callison:

What point should I go ahead and use in your thinking?

Matt Callison:

And you're going back into the academics.

Matt Callison:

Is that really all you.

Matt Callison:

Oh, is that really all your voices that are coming in?

Matt Callison:

Or could there possibly be something else whispering in your ear?

Matt Callison:

Some people are going, what is he talking about?

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

But Hey, I believe in spiritual guides, I believe in angels.

Matt Callison:

I believe in helping that person or whatever I need to be able to do or think

Matt Callison:

or believe to be able to help that person.

Matt Callison:

It gets me out of the way I asked for help in the clinic room.

Matt Callison:

Who's there to help.

Matt Callison:

Is it just me?

Matt Callison:

I don't think so.

Michael Max:

You're curious what we have to get out of the way too.

Michael Max:

You got to get out of it to

Matt Callison:

find a way you got to get it and listen,

Matt Callison:

what voices actually come in.

Matt Callison:

What thoughts come in?

Matt Callison:

Are those, all your thoughts, I think is kinda a little selfish

Matt Callison:

to think that that's mad at him.

Michael Max:

Well, you know, w when you say, listen, I think

Michael Max:

about the Chinese character.

Michael Max:

And in the way that the traditional characters written it's made up of several

Michael Max:

components, it's made up of an ear it's made up of eyes and it's made up of heart.

Michael Max:

And that's how you

Matt Callison:

listen.

Matt Callison:

You know what I think I would probably cheers these

Matt Callison:

microphones with that's perfect.

Matt Callison:

What you just said.

Michael Max:

I mean, just one of those interesting things in the language that.

Michael Max:

And in the simplified characters, you don't see it.

Michael Max:

It's just a mouth to an ear, which is often the way we think listening is, but

Michael Max:

it, it actually includes, it includes what you were just talking about,

Matt Callison:

the hard pericardium,

Michael Max:

the heart pericardium, that communication piece.

Michael Max:

So important.

Michael Max:

So you've been at this 30, some odd

Matt Callison:

years.

Matt Callison:

I've been licensed for 26, but as far as like putting it all

Matt Callison:

together, it's been 30 some years.

Michael Max:

It's been 30 somewhere.

Michael Max:

You've been at it awhile.

Michael Max:

You know, one of the things.

Michael Max:

Th that people often go to conferences for is because they want to, they want to

Michael Max:

learn to get better at what they're doing.

Michael Max:

They want to have a successful practice.

Michael Max:

And, and in fact, you know, there's, uh, well actually by the time this errors,

Michael Max:

there will, we will have had a round table discussion on, on, you know, getting a

Michael Max:

sports acupuncture, practice up and going.

Michael Max:

And I think it's really important to focus on the things that need to be focused on.

Michael Max:

You know, to get your practice successful.

Michael Max:

So you, so you can do your work, you can do your art, but the thing

Michael Max:

that gets you started and successful in your first, let's say five to 10

Michael Max:

years is not, what's going to keep you going at the 25 or 30 year mark.

Michael Max:

There's something else that happens.

Michael Max:

And I think I heard you mentioning this, that you had a certain

Michael Max:

way that you were working.

Michael Max:

You went, you land in New Zealand life, reconfigures itself.

Michael Max:

We're sending you.

Michael Max:

In San Jose right now, California having this conversation.

Michael Max:

And you're talking about the importance of reading the classics and going back

Michael Max:

to, you know, knowing your fundamentals, knowing your Chinese medicine,

Michael Max:

in addition to your orthopedics.

Michael Max:

So this isn't a question about technique.

Michael Max:

This is a question about development as a practitioner.

Michael Max:

What is it that after twenty-five years of doing that?

Michael Max:

Is the thing that keeps you going.

Michael Max:

And the next thing to work on

Matt Callison:

it's passion, it's passion.

Matt Callison:

It's the pure joy of developing techniques, um, from ideas.

Matt Callison:

That usually when you get ideas is coming from somebody else's ideas,

Matt Callison:

and then you take that idea and then you be able to evolve that

Matt Callison:

idea, and then you start putting it into some kind of practical manner.

Matt Callison:

And then all of a sudden that practical technique starts to work.

Matt Callison:

That's really exciting to me developing different needle

Matt Callison:

techniques or, or, um, different treatment protocols that can be used.

Matt Callison:

So I think, I think having the passion to develop different things and then

Matt Callison:

apply it to the public and then it works.

Matt Callison:

And then the patient is out of pain and they're able to get back to their

Matt Callison:

activities of daily living and they look you in the eye and they say,

Matt Callison:

That to me is better than payment.

Matt Callison:

And then you get paid.

Matt Callison:

We got to get paid, right?

Matt Callison:

We have to get paid, but otherwise we don't get to do the work to get

Matt Callison:

results and to apply the results, to assess this a condition and

Matt Callison:

then apply the treatment plan and protocol, and then see the results

Matt Callison:

is really something that's fantastic.

Matt Callison:

Now, um, there is a common thread.

Matt Callison:

Between day one of getting your license and seeing your very

Matt Callison:

first patient to 30 years later.

Matt Callison:

And in my mind that is managing your patient's health care.

Matt Callison:

That's not taught in acupuncture schools, and there are some

Matt Callison:

practitioners that are brilliant at it.

Matt Callison:

And there's some practitioners that really need some help.

Michael Max:

So when you say managing your

Matt Callison:

patient's healthcare, making the patient accountable for

Matt Callison:

taking the herbs, making the patient accountable for doing their particular

Matt Callison:

exercise, um, giving them homework to do, um, having them bring a dietary log

Matt Callison:

in that they're doing, you're managing their healthcare instead of just

Matt Callison:

applying a treatment, then I'll see you next week, based on your experience.

Matt Callison:

How many treatments is it going to take to be able to have this case

Matt Callison:

of lateral epicondylitis come in?

Matt Callison:

So do I want to treat this person twice a week for two weeks?

Matt Callison:

And then I expect 60% improvement.

Matt Callison:

I mean, having some kind of prognosis I think is going to be very important

Matt Callison:

and that's part of managing the person's health care that leads to success.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

So I hear what I hear you're saying is taking a very active role, not

Michael Max:

just you're here for your treatment.

Michael Max:

I'm going to your true.

Michael Max:

Whatever you do with your life, you know, good luck getting involved

Michael Max:

in it, you get real involved in it.

Michael Max:

So what do you do with the patients that don't take their herbs or

Matt Callison:

don't do their

Michael Max:

exercise?

Michael Max:

Don't do their exercises or eat the things they know that are

Michael Max:

going to cause them trouble.

Michael Max:

Well, I've seen plenty of patients who they know if they eat glutenous

Michael Max:

types of things and because they have a sensitivity, their joints are

Michael Max:

going to be really, really painful.

Michael Max:

And yet.

Michael Max:

They make those choices.

Matt Callison:

So usually with those kinds of cases, if they're getting results,

Matt Callison:

there's not much, I can really be able to say, like, if they come in and they

Matt Callison:

have a certain pain, that's when scale of one to 10 and it's a 10 and you treat

Matt Callison:

them twice and now they're down to a one, but they're still eating the wheat.

Matt Callison:

Gluten.

Matt Callison:

There's not really a whole lot that you can be able to say other than

Matt Callison:

that's really not that good for you.

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

But if that person's coming in and they're have a pain, a scale

Matt Callison:

of 10, you treat them a couple of times and then it's at an eight.

Matt Callison:

Well, I mean, that's where you just have to kind of hit them in the wallet and

Matt Callison:

just say, you know, how many times do you want to come back and see me and pay

Matt Callison:

me this money when you're handicapping me and I'm treating you basically with

Matt Callison:

one hand tied behind my back, how, how much do you want to get out of pain?

Matt Callison:

And that's where you start getting into the person's spirit.

Matt Callison:

You know, that's where you start questioning them.

Matt Callison:

Like, do you need this.

Matt Callison:

Hm,

Michael Max:

why?

Michael Max:

Well that's I had never thought about it from that point of view.

Michael Max:

Do you, what is this pain doing for you?

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

Ask a patient though.

Matt Callison:

It has to be appropriate.

Matt Callison:

It has to be appropriate, but I mean, that's, some people really

Matt Callison:

have to think about that one,

Michael Max:

that there might be a function for the dysfunction and

Michael Max:

you need to uncover that as well.

Michael Max:

It's true.

Matt Callison:

Yeah, they have pain somewhere else in their life.

Matt Callison:

And, and so that musculoskeletal injury is really bugging them the

Matt Callison:

more and more that they're having that other pain in their life.

Matt Callison:

Nah, let's say my partner's a pain in the ass.

Matt Callison:

Well, they come in with a gluteal strain.

Matt Callison:

My boss is a pain in the neck.

Matt Callison:

They come in with a neck problem.

Matt Callison:

They're shouldering the world.

Matt Callison:

They don't have a foot to stand on.

Matt Callison:

I'm going all of those.

Matt Callison:

I mean, if you read the Louise hay, right, God bless her soul.

Matt Callison:

If you read Louise hay, she was really onto it.

Matt Callison:

Know there's a lot of things that she said that, that she noticed

Matt Callison:

from her own practice that I think were really actually very true.

Michael Max:

So sometimes the, and I've seen this in many

Michael Max:

cases, the symptom is not the.

Michael Max:

It's often a messenger and it's a really loyal messenger cause it's going to

Michael Max:

stick around until it gets listened to.

Matt Callison:

Right?

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

I mean, we can treat the signs and symptoms or do we treat

Matt Callison:

what caused the signs and the symptoms and that's the goal?

Matt Callison:

Isn't it it's treat the costs.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

What's next.

Matt Callison:

Michael, let's go

Michael Max:

and this often happens.

Michael Max:

When I'm doing one of these interviews, there'll be a moment

Michael Max:

where there's a kind of a pause.

Michael Max:

Cause it's like, let's

Matt Callison:

take that one in,

Michael Max:

it takes a little time to take some things in.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Can we go a little further down this rabbit hole?

Michael Max:

All right.

Michael Max:

One of the conversations I hear within our community, there's there's people that

Michael Max:

are like, yeah, I just want to help people feel better and make their pain go away.

Michael Max:

There's other people that say things like, well, actually I

Michael Max:

don't care about their pain.

Michael Max:

I just want to treat their spirits.

Michael Max:

Right.

Michael Max:

And, and those are actually two sides of a continuum.

Michael Max:

Right?

Michael Max:

Increasingly I, in my practice, I'm curious about this spirit aspect.

Michael Max:

I'm from, what do I mean by, and even he's saying things like spirit aspect,

Michael Max:

it starts getting kind of Woody here.

Michael Max:

It's like, what exactly are we talking about?

Michael Max:

So when you hear things like spirit aspect, or you say things

Michael Max:

like spirit ass, Where, what are

Matt Callison:

we talking about?

Matt Callison:

It's your soul?

Matt Callison:

It's the sparkle in your eye.

Matt Callison:

It's your character.

Matt Callison:

It's it's, it's who you are on a cellular level.

Matt Callison:

What drives you?

Matt Callison:

What makes you sad?

Matt Callison:

What makes you happy?

Matt Callison:

It's your soul?

Matt Callison:

So it makes your heartbeat.

Matt Callison:

So who is this person that's coming in with this musculoskeletal?

Matt Callison:

You know, it's a really common, great combination is when I have people

Matt Callison:

coming into my educational program that are, Worsley trained five

Matt Callison:

elemental acupuncturist, which is all based on treating spirit, right.

Matt Callison:

And energetic blocks, freeing up the energetic blocks, which can be

Matt Callison:

accomplished in a number of different.

Matt Callison:

Not just five elemental, but five elemental is really is good.

Matt Callison:

It's good is using five elemental acupuncture with also

Matt Callison:

orthopedic type of acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

That combination is pretty magical because you can change somebody that would just

Matt Callison:

keep sticking with lateral epicondylitis.

Matt Callison:

Cause it's there.

Matt Callison:

I've already been talking about it.

Matt Callison:

You can change somebody's lateral epicondylitis pain drastically.

Matt Callison:

If it's coming from a block.

Matt Callison:

Yeah, an emotional block.

Matt Callison:

And so if they're going to go and see someone who's not looking at

Matt Callison:

the ShaoYin or, or treating the ShaoYin five elementary, Japanese

Matt Callison:

acupuncture, TCM doesn't really matter is that they're not going to get the

Matt Callison:

results until that person is actually able to move through that block.

Matt Callison:

Energetically move through life gracefully, given

Michael Max:

that the spirit and the body.

Michael Max:

Of course intimately connected.

Michael Max:

Even the idea of saying there's a mind, body connection predisposes

Michael Max:

at disconnection, right?

Michael Max:

I mean, and I think this is hard for us as Westerners.

Michael Max:

Who've grown up with these, these distinctions that there's a separation

Michael Max:

between mind, body when the beauties of Chinese medicine is there's not that

Michael Max:

separation, but it seems like it takes a long time to be able to actually feel in.

Michael Max:

What that is to be able to feel into that unity, to be able to feel

Michael Max:

into, oh, there's this hole here.

Michael Max:

And I can work on any aspect and connect with every other aspect.

Michael Max:

I think it takes a while to actually grasp that as a practitioner,

Michael Max:

it's so much easier to go.

Michael Max:

I'm working on the elbow or I'm working on, uh, the issues

Michael Max:

with the marriage and whatever.

Michael Max:

How do you know when toward.

Michael Max:

At which level

Matt Callison:

I don't, I don't, you can't separate.

Matt Callison:

It is there.

Matt Callison:

There's obviously going to be priority.

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

So, I mean, I'm just throwing a dart with blindfolded.

Matt Callison:

I just tried to treat it all and I have a little motto is like fix

Matt Callison:

what you find, fix what you find.

Matt Callison:

And so if you find that this person is.

Matt Callison:

Like for example, an initial office visit where they're words that come out of

Matt Callison:

their mouth describing the musculoskeletal injury does not match the ShaoYin

Matt Callison:

expression in their face or their eyes.

Matt Callison:

That to me is a telltale sign to be able to start getting that connected because

Matt Callison:

they're disconnected in spirit with that.

Matt Callison:

And so.

Matt Callison:

That particular case the treatment would be.

Matt Callison:

I'm just hypothetically speaking here, 30, 40% musculoskeletal because

Matt Callison:

they're coming in to my practice for muscle skeletal injury, but then

Matt Callison:

60% is treating that ShaoYin and trying to be able to get that person.

Matt Callison:

Because you notice that

Michael Max:

they're not connected.

Michael Max:

You notice

Matt Callison:

it's not connected.

Matt Callison:

And sometimes I wonder too, is that you apply your acupuncture protocol

Matt Callison:

and your moxibustion protocol and your Chinese medicine as much as possible.

Matt Callison:

Cause sometimes I wonder if it's just the words that you say at the

Matt Callison:

right time is what actually causes the healing for that particular

Michael Max:

case.

Michael Max:

So you've noticed this in your clinic.

Michael Max:

Something in the room actually

Matt Callison:

changes doesn't it did the G in the room, changes the room, changes

Matt Callison:

their ShaoYin as her laying on the table.

Matt Callison:

Change.

Matt Callison:

And you can see that most people I feel.

Matt Callison:

Yeah, I think most, I think us energetic workers with acupuncture can

Matt Callison:

really see it and feel it, a practice that, that I've done in the past.

Matt Callison:

And I coach my students with is that look at a candle when it's

Matt Callison:

dark and look the flames above it.

Matt Callison:

And how far can you be able to take those heat flames?

Matt Callison:

How far can you see the vapors?

Matt Callison:

And so when it gets really quite dark, but you still see little

Matt Callison:

waves of the vapors applied.

Matt Callison:

To the human body and when the person is laying down and you're putting

Matt Callison:

acupuncture points in step back and take a look and see if you can be

Matt Callison:

able to see those energetic waves.

Matt Callison:

A lot of times it directs you that, oh, I need to be able to put a point here.

Matt Callison:

Oh, wait.

Matt Callison:

I can see that.

Matt Callison:

I need to be able to put a point here to be able to change the key of that patient.

Michael Max:

I love when interviews go in way unexpected direction.

Michael Max:

Not that.

Michael Max:

I mean, not that I know what to expect.

Michael Max:

Cause I comes mat

Matt Callison:

meat suit mat.

Michael Max:

When, when would you say these sorts of changes

Michael Max:

started happening for you?

Michael Max:

What changes?

Michael Max:

It changes from working, you know, like, like Mr.

Michael Max:

I'm going to move a needle, these motor points and help people's range

Michael Max:

of motion to I'm noticing a person's.

Michael Max:

Not connected emotionally to.

Michael Max:

The physical pain that

Matt Callison:

they, well, I think I've already, I've always seen that aspect

Matt Callison:

of it where there's little bit of a disconnect between the words the person

Matt Callison:

is saying and, and their expressions that they have, or even look in their eyes.

Matt Callison:

You can see how one eye is going to have, um, bright Shen and the other eyes.

Matt Callison:

Right.

Matt Callison:

So, um, it's that, that type of person, when you look at him, you like, for

Matt Callison:

example, if you had a three by five card and you cover up once out of the

Matt Callison:

face and you see expression and the other side of the fast face, and it

Matt Callison:

looks really quite dulled that they're usually, there's just too much going

Matt Callison:

on in life for that person right now.

Matt Callison:

So they can't take in anything, but they're still able to give that is

Matt Callison:

something I think is really important to be able to treat now, as far as.

Matt Callison:

When I started that, I think it's always been day one.

Matt Callison:

I've always been a bit of an odd person I've been told.

Matt Callison:

I'm not, I'm definitely not your norm, but I did go through that

Matt Callison:

period of meat suit acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

And when I was developing a lot of the motor point aspect, cause when I motor

Matt Callison:

points were not discussed at all, when I started it was, it was trigger points.

Matt Callison:

So actually putting a stainless steel needle into the motor nerve innervation.

Matt Callison:

When I first started doing it, it was met with a lot of skepticism and

Matt Callison:

then there was also met with, wow, this is great because we are changing

Matt Callison:

people's cheesy and getting them out of pain and changing range of motion.

Matt Callison:

So, you know, once I started getting popular with that, then

Matt Callison:

I became very, um, arrogant.

Matt Callison:

Egocentric myopic and had five rooms going at the same time for assistance.

Matt Callison:

And I was basically just doing, you know, meet suit acupuncture.

Matt Callison:

And I started getting away from TCM.

Matt Callison:

But what really bugged me is like, what we said earlier in this conversation

Matt Callison:

is that there was quite a few people that just were not responding

Matt Callison:

oh, with age and experiences.

Matt Callison:

There's a seasoning that takes place, you know, and it desired to be able to

Matt Callison:

help even those really difficult cases.

Matt Callison:

And so yeah, the rest we've already

Michael Max:

talked about.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Michael Max:

Well, you know, I I've noticed in it, it's kind of a curiosity and this is

Michael Max:

an acupuncture is just living enough years to notice that often things that

Michael Max:

are solutions at one point and really helpful become stumbling blocks and

Michael Max:

things to move beyond at another point.

Michael Max:

And I find that process is relentlessly unending.

Matt Callison:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

I agree.

Matt Callison:

And the more that you have that she and the passion to continue

Matt Callison:

with it, the better off it is.

Matt Callison:

And my biggest lesson, I think with, during that time is, is to become

Matt Callison:

humble because it's not all about me.

Matt Callison:

And the more that I made it that way, the more than it was lessons in

Matt Callison:

life that just kicked me in the ass.

Matt Callison:

What really

Michael Max:

has your attention and interest right now in terms of.

Michael Max:

Draws you in your practice and the things that you're working on and

Michael Max:

what seems new and interesting.

Michael Max:

And, uh, it seems to be coming up for you and the work that you're touring.

Michael Max:

Yeah.

Matt Callison:

Uh, currently right now, um, what we're developing in the, in the

Matt Callison:

smack program is myself and also Brian Lau, Brian Lauer is, uh, a co-teacher

Matt Callison:

with me in the program and looking at which a lot of people are looking at.

Matt Callison:

It becomes much more, much more popular than the last 15 years as fascia I'm

Matt Callison:

looking at the fascia and the mild planes is actually being part of the

Matt Callison:

answer of what the channel systems are and how the myofascia plans have

Matt Callison:

communication from self self sell.

Matt Callison:

So taking that model and applying acupuncture points to local

Matt Callison:

distal and adjacent and changing.

Matt Callison:

Are actually using that as part of the assessment.

Matt Callison:

Like for example, let's say that somebody has a super spy Natus injury that you're

Matt Callison:

suspecting is a super spy Natus injury.

Matt Callison:

And you do Hawkins Kennedy test, or you do painful arc test is to look

Matt Callison:

at what sinew channels are affecting.

Matt Callison:

What channel correspondences are effected as part of the assessment,

Matt Callison:

we still have our assessment hat on and plug in one or two needles

Matt Callison:

as the person is standing there.

Matt Callison:

Then repeat the painful arc test, repeat the Hawkins Kennedy test to

Matt Callison:

see if it's reduced by sometime 80%.

Matt Callison:

Then that gives you an idea of, okay, what channels are going to be affected.

Matt Callison:

That's part of the.

Matt Callison:

So then looking at, then what's going to be the best way of actually treating

Matt Callison:

this particular condition and managing the person's healthcare from initial

Matt Callison:

office, visit all the way back to the tennis court that just doesn't get boring.

Matt Callison:

I mean, it just doesn't get boring to be able to have this person go back and

Matt Callison:

to their activities of daily living or their sport that drives their spirit.

Matt Callison:

That gives them passion is really a high for them.

Matt Callison:

I think that's

Michael Max:

probably going to do a lot of information.

Michael Max:

It's a lot of information.

Michael Max:

Thank you so much for taking the time here today.

Michael Max:

We'll go get back to the conference.

Michael Max:

Thanks

Matt Callison:

for having me.

Matt Callison:

I really appreciate

Michael Max:

it.

Michael Max:

All right, friends, that's it for this.

Michael Max:

Mini-series from the sports acupuncture in line.

Michael Max:

Again, a deep bow of appreciation to both the sports acupuncture Alliance

Michael Max:

and the Los OMS for their dedication to our profession and the support they

Follow