Episode Summary:

Welcome to another engaging episode of the Minding My Creative Business podcast! I'm your host, ShySpeaks, and alongside my co-host, Ron "iRonic" Lee Jr., we're diving into the dynamic world of copywriting with the incredibly talented Cierra Seay. Cierra is a renowned copywriting expert who's crafted compelling messages for top-tier entrepreneurs like ET the Hip Hop Preacher and David Shands. In this episode, we unpack her journey from working at Chrysler to becoming a sought-after copywriter, coach, and consultant. We explore the essence of effective messaging, the importance of continuous personal development, and how to turn your natural talents into a thriving business.

Tune in to learn how Cierra leveraged her marketing skills to help clients earn over $75 million, why understanding your optimal creative time is crucial, and the significance of building strong relationships in the entrepreneurial space. Whether you're a budding copywriter or a seasoned creative entrepreneur, this episode is packed with insights to help you elevate your game.

Timeline Summary:

00:00 Introduction of copywriting expert and her credentials.

04:52 Discovery questions led to career in marketing.

08:52 Joining programs for personal development and community.

11:40 Seeking personal growth through community and mentorship.

14:06 Transition from hustle to business takes time.

18:42 Identify what moves you, write every day.

20:33 Transitioning to consultancy and coaching larger companies.

25:10 Reached $100,000 through consulting, aiming higher.

26:10 Unexpected opportunities can lead to business success.

31:19 Input equals output; understand, research, practice.

32:58 Apple's Steve Jobs insisted on "Think Different."

34:59 Figure out your optimal creative time schedule.

38:39 Podcast for creative entrepreneurs, measuring effectiveness and growth.

42:44 How to demonstrate value and increase sales.

44:42 Feeling pressure to overdo creative work.

48:10 Measure client success to ensure growth and satisfaction.

51:17 Discuss converting and retaining clients for business model.

56:25 Creative entrepreneurs should focus on attracting, converting and retaining clients.

59:06 Gratitude for time, encouragement to subscribe and share.

01:00:33 Focus on nurturing my creativity and ambitions.

Links & Resources:

• Join the Creators Corner Community: mmcbpodcast.com
• Follow us on YouTube for more episodes and updates
• Connect with Cierra Seay on LinkedIn and Instagram

Closing Remarks: 

Thank you for tuning into the Minding My Creative Business podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, follow, and share it with other creative entrepreneurs. Don't forget to join our community for exclusive content and networking opportunities. Remember, all it takes is intention, consistency, and laser focus to mind your creative business!

This is the minding my creative business podcast with your host, Ron ironically, junior.

And I am your host, shot speaks. And this is the number one podcast for creative entrepreneurs to gain strategy, structure, and self development all in one place.

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, yeah. No, listen. So we both are MC's, so we love literations, right? So today, as you all see, we have a guest with us. So I'm gonna introduce our guest, but then I'm gonna let her introduce herself, right? Cause I know I'm probably not gonna do a good job as her, but this is Miss Sierra say, she is a copywriting expert, right. And she's probably done some copy for some of the biggest coaches in this entrepreneur space, like ET, the hip hop preacher. We got Marquail Russell, we got David Shands and a host of other people, right. But not only does she do copywriting, but she also is a coach and a consultant and a public speaker.

So that's how I would introduce you with miss say. How would you introduce yourself?

You know what? You did a great job. I said, I need to add speaker to the thing. Cause I'm just, like, embracing that. But, yeah, that's who I am. I've helped my clients make over $75 million in real money with my strategies, blueprints, frameworks. It's been an interesting ride. It's been an interesting ride.

So, hold on.

I don't know if y'all caught that.

Listen, the podcast just got hot. She said, wand it back. She said she has helped her clients earn over $75 million with her blueprints.

Right, frameworks.

Frameworks coming straight out of the woman sitting right here. What would you prefer to be called for the rest of the episode? What can we.

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Oh, we're a Sierras.

Von, we didn't know if you wouldn't have missed, you know, with the 75 and all, you know, Sierras did.

So when we hear the word copyright, right. I know when I came into. So when I came into the business, right. For me, I'm thinking of copywriting from a standpoint of me being an artist, me writing lyrics and having to copyright my lyrics, right, that's what most people. Right. That's what most people think about when they think about copyright. But when we talk about copywriting in the entrepreneurial space, can you define what copywriting is?

Yeah. So copywriting is actually like the action of creating the words or verbiage to make somebody do what you want them to do all encompassing. I like to call it just messaging now. Right? So it's like, what are you saying in your videos? What are you saying in your captions, your sales pages? That's kind of like the website. That's like the basic way to explain it. It's everything you're articulating in regards to what you do, to who you want to make a move. And that move is different, you know, based on where you at, what you do, and what you have to offer. But that's what, it's your messaging.

How are you putting out what you do in front of the people you want to get it?

Okay. Right. So from that definition, like, copy, it's everything writing is.

Writing copy or writing the messaging that appears on.

So, like, copywriting is the process.

Right.

But messaging is what most people don't understand that they need to when it comes to, like, their business relationships. Like, it's all a part of life. Like, messaging is everything.

It's words.

Wow.

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Yeah.

And you gotta write the words. Okay, so now, how do you monetize, like, that. Writing, copy, writing, messaging for others? How do you, how did. Well, how did you specifically start. Start monetizing it?

It wasn't planned. Right. It's so crazy when I think about, like, how I got here. So I was working at Chrysler, which we all know is like the holy grail here in Michigan. You work there, you don't quit, none of that. But I always had, like, a knack for marketing, always loved it. Went to school for journalism and advertising. I had two kids early, unplanned.

So it's like, okay, you gotta get a job. After my second son, that's when I started working at Chrysler. But I was still, like, trying to figure out, how do I get out of here? Cause once I. The first day, I'm like, oh, no, this ain't for me. But I can't be irresponsible the way I used to be and just leave. So just started rediscovering who I was. I'll never forget, it was Jack Canfield's. It's one of the thick books he got, but basically, like, trying to figure out, what do you want to do all over again.

So the discovery questions and everything led back to marketing. Everything led back to marketing. And I remember in advertising when I went to Michigan State, learning about copywriting. Back then, the digital space wasn't as huge, so it was just more print. Like, you work for magazine, newspaper, et cetera. Long story short, started developing myself, joined a personal development program, noticed a gap in what somebody was doing, offered to do it. It worked. And, yeah, it just, like, literally every client y'all named, I served them first, or I went to them to get help first before they realized what my gift was and then allowed me to serve them.

Okay, so you. Okay, so you're in this self development program just for yourself. Just for you.

Yeah, like, literally trying to figure out my life.

And then you were realizing, like, I could help them with you say you realize there was a gap.

Gap.

And what, like, how do you. How do you real. How do you even recognize a gap? With copy and messaging? Like, what is it?

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So I think it's my natural market in mind. Right. So me seeing, like, this person is great, but there are people who are missing out because they're not understanding, like, what the true benefits are. So giving suggestions on that, the next thing I noticed was you got all these people on the email list, and you're not sending them no emails. Like, just let me do it, did it, and kapow. I guess if you could, that's what you could call it. So I think my natural knack for marketing helped me to be able to notice the gap. Right.

Cause you gotta know what you're looking for, right. And I was just blessed to do it for people who were already great. And it was like, we're just pouring gasoline on the fire.

Right.

Cause obviously they're great because you're in their program. I'm in their.

And they weren't marketed well. He wasn't a marketer. Et was not a marketer when I. He was just really known for what he did. Had a huge following already, like, and it's ten times that now. But him and the team, they weren't marketers. They were servants first. And it was all word of mouth.

So, yeah, I'm going off script just a little bit, just because you. Yeah, I heard something right. You were in these other people's programs.

Mm hmm. Every single last one of them.

And as you was in their programs, you saw a need, and you said, hey, I can feel that need for you.

Absolutely. Every single. And here's the other thing. For those of you who are listening, like, I never went into the program looking for anything except what I paid for. It just so happens it's like, oh, well, y'all not doing this. I know how to do it.

Right.

Wow.

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So, first of all, which is rare.

And when I think about it, I'm like, that is nothing but God.

Right? And then you. Okay, so then you say you pitch to just say, I can just help. Like, you just wanted to serve. Like, I can help you with just a project. Or were you help looking to help them long term, or were you just.

Kind of like, what was that?

Yeah, what did that look?

So I'm a huge advocate of not suggesting anything that I'm not willing to take on. You know how, like, I mean, you're a director, right? You have people on the team who complain, but they don't have a solution. So every time I went like, hey, but here's the solution. And it's like, you can either hire somebody else or, like, this is what I, like, naturally suggest. And in every case, it was like, well, if you got time, like, go ahead and do it.

Yeah, right, right.

It was pro bono with e four, you know, obviously initially, but everybody else, they was just like, well, just tell me what you charge to get it done.

Wow. Wow. So, okay, so you went into their programs, right, because you was trying to get help, but you said, I didn't. The copywriting kind of chose. You didn't. You didn't necessarily choose it.

Absolutely.

So what were you going into those programs for initially?

So when I joined breathe university, which I don't even think it exists anymore, it was like, personal development. Like, literally, what am I here on this earth for? I don't have a community of people around me who are, like, looking to. To improve, like, you know what I mean? So it was like, I was looking for community there, as well as, like, just more personal development

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stuff. Dave's program at the time was strictly for entrepreneurs who, like, so figuring out what you were good at, all, that I knew what I was good at. But once again, community went for community. And then when I joined Mark well's program, I knew what I was good at. I had some clients, but I was looking to grow. So even with myself, it's like, okay, sitting down to identify what are my gaps? What am I missing? Who can help me fix it? And that's how I chose.

Like, anytime I'm hiring for anything or coach, therapist, or whatever, it's like, what is the gap? What is the priority? Who can help me?

Got you.

Wow.

Listen, and the cool thing is, it's almost like. It's almost like you don't even want to recommend somebody because it's like you people trying to, like, just do that. Like, I'm just getting this program just to, like, like, literally.

And that's why I had to say, like, I never. It was never an ulterior motive.

Exactly.

But if you could take anything from that. What I would suggest is getting in the spaces with the people that you wanna work with. Right. Like, you can't say you wanna work with athletes and you never go to an athletic conference or you never go to the gym. Like, you have to get in those spaces and just let it happen naturally and organically.

I love it.

But even I've heard you mentioned a couple of names. So you talked about, you said David Shands. He talked about. He's a business guy, Mark. Well, he helps you go, you making money, but how can I get higher ticket things? But there's another guy, his name is Alex Hermazzi.

Right.

And so if I'm pronouncing that properly, and he says he would actually recommend what you did, but he would say, don't come in to pitch your service at for sale. Just come in like you did

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initially. Like, I see something. If you see that there's something missing, offer to help show me what you can do, because I'm not going to pay you to be to guinea pig on me. And he's like 100. Him and his wife were worth $100 million.

Yeah.

So he's like most people who we wound up hiring did. They came in, they showed us what they can do. It was almost like submitting a portfolio, because when you submit a portfolio, here's all my work. But instead of it being work I've done for other people, let me do some work on you. Put a portfolio of me. I saw it, I liked it. Let's hire that guy.

Right?

So there is an aspect of getting in proximity that really matters. Okay.

Ooh, this is that I would recommend.

Yeah, absolutely. You gotta get in there.

I like the fact, though, that you were in a personal development space. Right? You went into it, it's like, okay, cool. I know that I gotta do something outside of myself. Right. There's only so much that I know, so much that I can do. So let me go and find someone that I can go be a part of their program. They can pour into me and also be a part of a community to where I can possibly create relationships with other people, and we can elevate and grow together. So I'm very big on that.

And so the fact that you were.

Doing that, that's a strong nugget for creative entrepreneurs who are watching this podcast. Yeah. We want you to talk. We gonna get into the strategy a little bit and we gonna get into the structure. But there is also self development that's there. And it's not just joining. We using the word join. But you mostly have to invest in these programs.

So I want to encourage creative entrepreneurs to invest in yourself, because once you invest like she did, as you can see, it works out. You're investing in yourself so that you can grow as a person, grow your creativity, and then more importantly, grow your business. Right. And so you can't invest in relationships.

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Yeah.

I'm not gonna lie, I think I'm just realizing, like, the true value of relationships. Like, the last 1824 months, I was always like, I'm just here to do the job. Like, I ain't really.

I get that.

But those communities meeting people, it could do wonders for you. Like, it's doing wonders for my kids. Like, just some of the people that I've met. So go into it with an open mind. Don't think about, you know, the people you used to hang out with. Like, you just got to go into it with an open mind. You will be amazed that some amazing people you will meet from all over the world who genuinely want to help you.

Right.

And don't want nothing from you.

They like minded. They're like minded.

Yeah.

They're going to hold you accountable. We probably can create some synergy or some collaboration. And more importantly, they're exposed to different worlds, which exposes me to different worlds without me even trying to, simply because this is a gym within a gym. Can we listen? Shout out to Ciara. Okay, so I got a question for you. So how do you turn what you were doing into a business? Cause I know that you invested into some programs to get you to turn it into a business. So now that you've done that and you have your own personal experience, how do you take messaging and marketing and develop a business around?

That's a great question. Cause so I've been doing this full time, six years this month. I don't think I turned it into a business until like, two years ago. It was a hustle that I made great money with for a very long time. Like, it didn't turn into, okay, systems, onboarding, off boarding, you know, like vision, like, how big are we going? How, you know, it didn't turn into all of that until two years ago. And I had to sit down and ask myself, like, what are you actually building? Because when you, especially if you're providing a service and you're really good at it,

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everything is happening really, really, really fast, and next thing you know, you done created another job. You ain't really. It's a business, but it's still a job.

Pressure is pressure in the Rugg.

And you gotta be careful, because you gonna find yourself hating it. No matter how much you love it, once you turn it into a job, it's like, okay, I can't go out on vacation.

I gotta work.

I can't do this. I can't do that. And then you tell yourself, well, I don't have time to hire nobody. Yes, you do. You have to hire somebody. So how I got help. Like, that's how I did it. Like, literally, I'm like, this is becoming.

I'm grateful for it, but it's becoming a lot. So, same process. Like, I'm a framework type of person. What do I need first? I had a mentor at the time. He was like, the first thing you need is an executive assistant because you don't need to be answering all your emails. There's certain things you don't even need to be looking at, or you need to just once over, you know, over the week, you know, you can find a good executive assistant who could possibly post some of your stuff. But the onboarding, the off boarding, the sending the invoices, the doing the agreements, take all that off your plate. Like, immediately after that, it was like.

He was like, how much work do you want to do? Or, like, what's your ideal day?

What's your ideal day?

I'm like, well, right now, ideally, I still want to do the calls to enroll people. Right. I didn't really trust anybody with my sales process. I was like, but when it comes to, like, the actual writing, I'm in a space where I want to look at it, review it, and then tell somebody else what to change. Or I create the skeleton and they could fill it in.

Exactly.

So had to hire people for that.

So hiring other people who can write. Yes.

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Copywriters. Or people who had the ability to, like, tell a story. Cause you can learn. If you know how to write, you can learn how to be a copywriter. You just have to be open minded. Cause it breaks all the rules of the english language in most cases, right? So, like, people who, like super, super ap style, they can't. They be like, what is this? Where is that verb? Where is that? So, but for people who like to tell stories, people like, they can kind of. You can teach that.

It takes a minute, but you can teach it. What you can't teach is psychology. You can. But somebody has to be genuinely interested in understanding how somebody else thinks to really become a good copywriter. Cause that's what it is. You getting inside of the human mind.

So, okay, so if somebody's watching is their credit for entrepreneur and they know they're into marketing and they like to write. Do they need to be a journalist? Cause you had a background in journalism, like your degree is in journalism or you went to school for journalism.

I tell people quick, I ain't graduate. But I did go to school and it's so funny cause it was hip hop journalism. So I used to write for double xl, ozone magazine, the source, all of those. I thought I wanted to be a hip hop journalist til I found out they made no money.

Right?

My goodness.

Yeah. Like that's. And it was from there. So magazine, the copyright and stuff. And I'm like, oh, okay. When digital marketing started bubbling around like 2009, that's when I started studying. And I'm like, wait a minute, there's some areas of opportunity here. I never forget this infographic I saw that said the most important person on the digital marketing team is the copywriter.

And he was like, all right.

I'm like, no, let me figure out how to do this. First book I read was influenced by Robert C r D E. I think that's how you pronounce his name. Cause it's straight psychology.

Yeah.

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When it started talking about like how we in the stores, the music that's playing, like all of that is intentional, I was like, oh my God.

Wow.

Nerd it out on it.

I'm nerding out right now.

No, definitely.

Okay.

She hitting on it. She hit on it.

Did I answer the question?

Yeah. Well, the question, copywriter, like, if somebody wanted to be in this and they're like, do they need to have a background? Do they need to have a, went to school for journalism, how could they get in this? What kind of writer, what do they need to, you said an interest in psychology. Psychology and knowing how to write.

That's the only thing I would say now. Cause I would answer this question a couple years ago, different. I would say now, the first thing I would recommend is to figure out like, what moves you, right. When you see certain things, when you see certain emails, when you see certain ads, what moves you and take that and try to make somebody else move with the same product or service, if that makes sense. So I definitely write every day. Right. But pay attention to what's moving you or if it's something that you want, like practice writing out what it would take for you to buy it or what do you want to know about it that you don't already know? Cause that's a huge thing too, right? Benefits versus features. Like people want to talk about, oh, we got 50 buttons and.

But what does the 50 buttons do? Like, you know, it's like you. It's almost like you selling with a mattress. You're not selling the mattress. You're selling the pain free back. Like, you selling waking up, not being achy. So learning how that moves you and then practicing for products and services that you want, I think, is a good thing there. Robert C. Ardini's books.

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I definitely, highly recommend anything by Dan Kennedy is still gold when it comes to copy. But it's all psychology, though. That's really all it is.

That's really it. Okay.

And it's so funny. Cause I failed psychology one on one, twice.

Wow.

But you came back, though. You came back, though.

Yeah, I failed it twice. I couldn't get past the I stuff. I didn't even know why we was talking about eyes.

But it's okay. It's neither here nor there. But when Ron introduced you, he mentioned that you are a copywriter. I have a copywriting business. And you're a coach and consultant. Is this the type of. Cause it sounds like you know a lot about it now. Like, you.

You know, is this the type of thing that you coach people on or consult people on or what?

Yeah. So I'm moving into a space where I'm trying to coach and consult, like, bigger companies, if that makes sense. Love what I've been doing the past six years, but I'm a little tired of the Internet gurus. I still take some, you know, selective done for you people. Meaning there are some people that I will do it for. There are some people that I will coach. But where I'm going, like, I'm really focused on trying to go into these marketing departments to train their teams, consult with their teams. I'm doing a lot more speaking.

I'm on the road for the next three weekends teaching this stuff. So that's where I feel like God is leading me to next.

Okay, so when you talk about the coaching and consulting piece, is more so focused on corporations and business as opposed to other up and coming copywriters right now?

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Yes. So I've been challenged twice. Like, I think you should coach copywriters. And I'm like, I don't know. Because it's more to it than. It's more to it than just writing copy. Then it's the business part.

Right?

Like, I didn't even realize it. To three years in. Well, I told you, like, four years in. Like, wait a minute. I can, like, I know how to do this, but I gotta brush up on this because it's becoming a lot.

Yeah.

And I see what you're saying. If a company already exists and they already have a marketing department and a team, now I'm gonna come in and teach your team how to do it better, how to be more compelling, how to get better results, because they already have the business framework around it. And now we can strictly talk about the art of messaging.

Yeah.

Versus when I'm helping an individual who wants to start a copywriting business. I gotta talk about the business. I gotta teach you about this. I gotta teach you about that. So.

Or it's just the two fold of, oh, you taught me copy. I thought you was teaching me business. Like, I didn't say that. Like, but it's. It could just get real. I don't like gray areas. And so it's like, I know if I go this route, it's really not no gray area. You have a team.

I'm just here helping you and your team improve. Someone who wants to become a copywriter. Like, it would. I don't know what it would take for me to. To really put a whole lot of energy into, like, raising this generation of copywriters or something like that.

And I think it's one of those things where finding, I mean, I'm sure there's people out there, but it's probably been a little more difficult finding people who desire to be copywriters than it is to find businesses that need copywriting. Yeah, definitely.

Cause even when I was building the team, like, people, I don't know what people be thinking, how things work. Like, and I never asked anybody to work for free, but it's like, you gotta get

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some reps in before I can. Just like, I didn't work too hard. For me, it's like, oh, you don't have to look over. Yes, I do. Right? You gotta look it over. So, yeah, yeah, people are interesting.

So, okay, so if you are listening to this, you're a creative entrepreneur, and you already got a business that's busting, and you, like, I didn't know I was gonna interested in this copywriting episode or this episode with this copywriting lady on it, but now you just realize that you can tap her for some consultation work and she can help you get your messaging dialed in a little bit more and probably bring in that 75 million.

Right, right.

No, this is good. This is good. And I'm just, my wills are spinning. I know we have some script things, but my wills are spending based on a lot of things that you said, all right, so, all right, so let's get into the monetization piece. Right. We've. Yeah. You identified the fact that you are a coach and consultant, that you are actually a copywriter, as well as, you know, public speaking.

So when we talk about, you know, our podcast being geared towards creativepreneurs who are, you know, desire to be six, seven, even eight figure earners, we want to bring on people that's doing that. So for you, that six figure mark, is that from all aspects combined or are you able to, like. Nope. From copywriting, I bring in about six figures. From coaching consulting, I bring in six figures. And from speaking, I bring in this amount. Like, how does that breakdown work for you?

Yeah, that's a great question. I will say. So this is the first year where it's all three that I'm focused on. I made my first six figures flat out as a copywriter. Like, providing services. Yeah. And that was, do I want to tell people how long it took me? It didn't take me long, but it, like, literally, I remember the numbers. My first four years of entrepreneur, I made 40,002nd year, I made 80, and then it was about 18 months.

It was 18 months total until I, like, crossed that $100,000 threshold. Consulting. I have made six figures consulting. But this year, the goal is for all three streams to bring in six figures. The tricky part with speaking is determining is it going to be from speaking fees or is it going to be back in and, like, how I allocate it, which once coach again, has taught me, like, you know, if you can't get a speaking fee, obviously, you know, you make your money from the stage.

Exactly.

I'm about this close to finishing the book, which I will be starting to sell, like, one. So it's like, it's a method to that madness as well. But it all goes back to, you know, ideally, getting bigger

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clients to do more consulting work. So, yeah. Haven't made six figures as a speaker yet, but the other two, yes.

So using pretty much your speaking engagements and your books as a funnel to.

Your high school if they can't pay a fee, definitely.

Okay.

Definitely.

Which is really, we wasn't expecting her to drop that extra gym, but she just keep driving them because basically people don't realize there's a such thing as front end and back end. So if you're a creative entrepreneur, don't shy away from you. Could be this, could somebody could be watching this who's not even into messaging it at all. They do design dresses but don't sleep on that trade show that you could possibly do. You may not be getting paid to be there, but on the back end, as you tell people about, hey, we'll come in and we'll do this to your boutique shop, and we'll do this, this, that, and the third, and you're going to come in as a consultant and facelift their wedding shop or whatever. They'll be like, oh, I'm gonna bring her in. I'm gonna bring her in. I'm gonna bring her in.

You got four or five people willing to bring you in at $10,000 each. You just made $50,000. And know the people who had you on the stage didn't pay you 50,000, but you made 50,000 from the back end. That's the nugget she just dropped. We gonna keep it rolling. Cause she keep it rolling.

But even that case study wise, when we think about the Super bowl, they don't get paid to perform at the Super bowl.

It come out their pocket.

But the money that they make from being on that stage is astronomical.

The data proves it.

Yes.

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Every time the data proves it, they all see a crazy spike in streams. Typically, they already know what they about to drop after the Super bowl. So sometimes you can't always look like, well, what is somebody giving me upfront? Even with sometimes providing services?

Yeah, yeah.

No, that is true.

As a creative, like some, you have to assess the situation. Obviously, not all opportunities are equal, but sometimes it's worth it to come out your pocket, buy your own plane ticket just to get there. You never know who you're gonna meet.

Going back to that relationship piece that you mentioned earlier, and even back what you said initially with ET, I was providing a service free. It was pro bono, but it didn't stay that way. Right, so like you said.

Yeah, exactly.

So that back end piece.

So, yeah, that back end, y'all don't be sleep on the back end. Okay?

That's like my. That's what I be looking for now. I ain't gonna lie. I just be like, just get me in the room. I can make my own money. Just get me there.

She said, catch me on the back.

All right.

Okay. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit, because Ron loves to talk about branding and strategy. I love to talk about systems and structure. I'm an operations girl. And so let's talk about the back end a little bit. Speaking of the back end, let's talk about it, because when it comes to writing, there has to be a little bit of a back into that. There has to be a system to that. Like, is there? Okay.

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You basically are able to, when you're writing copy and you don't work for this company or you're not this individual, you're writing in their voice. Okay. How do you know, how do you write in somebody's voice? Like, what research goes and what system goes into being able to write in somebody's voice? We know you've mentioned it's a bit of psychology, but tell us, what is that like?

So this is another thing that I truly didn't realize was a gift. Like, I'm able to listen to somebody talk for a fairly short amount of time and, like, almost regurgitate, not regurgitate word for word, but style, personality. Yeah, that was, that's been, like, my claim to fame every day. Like, how do you do it? Like, they will read their own emails. Like, I almost thought I wrote it.

Wow.

But it's studying. So when I take on a client, especially if they're, you know, coach, consultant, speaker, they. Online, I'm going, and I'm watching at least an hour of content just to get their, you know, their mannerisms, what slang, what lingo. And from there, I don't know, like, it one of. It's gotta be a God thing. It's just like, all right.

It's natural.

And when I'm writing and I hear them as I'm writing it, so that's something you can't really teach. You definitely do have to be able to study somebody's style, but I know the rate that I'm able to do it as far as, like, time, like, fast, that's. I can't take no credit for that. Like, I legitimately cannot take no credit, like. Cause it's quick. It's quick. Like, I remember I heard Dave speak one time and I was like, oh, okay. And he was just like, what in the.

That's how you. Okay, so you got the research piece. You go, you study to learn how to. Okay, now, when it comes to speed, you just said writing. What are some writing tools or resources that you use to help with writing? I don't know. There has to be something. There's always some type of tool, technology tool in every industry that you're using that you would, that you use, that you would encourage people to lean into and that you, you can even mention something you encourage people to stay away from.

Y'all probably about to be like, what your iPhone knows. That's my favorite tool. When something comes to my end because I like genuinely nerd out on this stuff. I'll just pull out a note and just start writing the ad. Or I'll hear something and I'll be like, that could have been better. This is how I would have did it. It's so weird and it sounds so simple, but I've never, I'm

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just like getting into chat GPT and what I tell people is that I think it's great for speed purposes. But here's the problem.

It only spits out what you put in. So if you ain't putting nothing in good specific direct, you're not gonna get nothing back out. So you still have to have a foundation. You still need to know what is your ideal client thinking when they land in bed at night. You still need to know what your benefits are. I think it can help you work faster, but I don't think it's a substitute for truly having understanding, messaging, understanding how you articulate your value. I don't think it's ever gonna substitute it. I think people will get better at putting stuff in, but that still requires research and practice.

There's really no way around it. It's not.

Especially what you talked about. That's a human touch. That's a gift. You talked a lot about God, but if I had to relate this to the Bible, in the Bible, they had people who were scribes. We just think that they just wrote down everything that happened, but they probably had a little finesse with their writing. You probably would be like a scribe back in the day. Let me write this down. Okay.

That's just a little side note. Okay. But are there any other tools like, I don't know, some people may use like Grammarly?

Oh, yeah. For, so for like editing, cleaning up. Grammarly is great. That is one tool I do have on my phone and on my computer. Other than that though, that's it.

Wow.

She said she cooking from scratch.

I heard you mention earlier as well is where with copywriting, you don't necessarily follow the rules of, you know, grammar and English and things like that. Once again. Cause it's going back to messaging and communication. So it's ways to where I can communicate an idea effectively. But it might not be grammatically correct.

Yep.

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And we was talking earlier about the think different campaign with Apple. Right. Steve Jobs was, he was giving pushback on that because they were trying to change it to think differently. Cause that's grammatically correct. Yeah, but he was like, no, it has to be think different based on what I'm trying to communicate and what I'm trying to convey and what I'm trying to get people to think and feel as a result of experiencing.

Steve was this ad no master message? Yeah, I wish I could. It's too deep in my phone. But what was the guy's name that he hired? They ended up trying to fire him.

Where they ended up firing him, he.

Wouldn'T got him from. Was it coke or Pepsi?

Pepsi. It was Pepsi.

So he went and got him from Pepsi.

And I just finished the book, and.

I didn't get along once he got in there. But he did a interview where he said Steve Jobs was a master at conveying his message. It didn't matter to who it was. He was like, to me, to the people in the office, he was like, he made you believe everything.

Scully. I forget his first name. It is Scully.

He can get it across.

Like Steve. He was phenomenal at it. And Ashton Kutcher did a great job playing him.

Communication rules the nation, huh?

It really does, though. I mean, you work with kids, but, like, even with your kids.

Yeah, right.

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Definitely, man.

Okay. All right, we on the back end. Cause I know we all creators, and we can go in. I'm gonna go take you back to the back end. We talked about resources. You said, uh, the notepad, don't sleep on the notepad on your phone. Uh, and then you said, Grammarly, just for editorial editing purposes. What about, um, the writer, right.

Do, like, if you want to be good at this marketing messaging, do you like, how do you manage your time? Is it like, I work for 8 hours a day.

Okay.

I do what? I take an hour break, 15 to 15 minutes. Like, how do you lock in and focus? Because you got to be able to really, like, yeah, right. What you're trying to figure out.

Yeah, that took me, it took me about three and a half years to figure that out, too. So the first thing you got to do is figure out what is your optimal creative? Like, when are you the most creative? For me, I have to write between anywhere between 06:00 a.m. and noon. If I'm writing anything after that, it, it's going to be all right. But I normally will look at it with fresh eyes in the morning. I'm not sending nothing out that late. So figuring out what is your optimal creative? And I think that's for anybody that's creative. Like, some producers, they like to produce at night, some in the morning.

But figuring out when are you your most creative? So I, everything is on my calendar, right. My work time is about an hour and a half. I do like a sprint rest, repeat type model, like for everything, days, weeks, months, quarters. I go hard for three weeks, I chill for a week, I go hard for 2 hours, I get 30 minutes off. So I'm typically doing most of my heavy lifting work anywhere between ten and 01:00 p.m. right. Then I have development. I do development before.

So development is like 30 minutes audio book. Something that's keeping get you going.

Yeah.

Whether it's personal or professional prayer, meditation, wake up. But yeah. What I learned is that we really don't need eight hour days as creatives. Not working facts. You not working for 8 hours. Right. You really not. So I have three priorities.

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I plan out my week and then my income, producer activities, which is content, email, follow ups, that stuff. Don't take as long as we think it do though.

Right. So, okay, so you to lock in for writing, you do like, okay, I'm locked in for 2 hours, I'm a rest for 30 minutes.

Yep. Or it's an hour and I rest for 15 minutes. It just depends on what I'm working on. But yeah.

Okay. All right. And then you save other, your non creative work. You can do that in a little bit later.

Yeah, depending on what it is. But most of the time I'm done working by like 233 o'clock glory. It took a minute to get like I just, I gotta work all day. But nah, you don't.

But technically that really is if you up at six like that. Six to two or three, that's like a regular shift for somebody. So it really is a still a good working day. Right.

But even that, but she's saying like even all of it is not creating. Right. It's these other things that's getting my will spinning that's, you know, getting me to, you know, feel good and just put me in a certain mental space so that I can do that. But the actual creating, creating space is couple of hours.

Couple hours.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. And anybody I know who's like summer to work less than that.

Exactly. So I'm like full time. I don't actually have a traditional, I don't work for anybody else besides myself. Right. And so I found myself, there are some days where I'm locked in and I have a lot to do. So I gotta go harder, longer. But sometimes I'm like I'm done after lunch and I'm done with my date. Now I'm working on something that may personally develop me.

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I may be listening to an audiobook that actually goes into who I become. You know what I'm saying?

But like, I'm actually seasons too, right? I mean, like, if you're in a season where you launching something, it may look a little different, but it's definitely not always 8 hours worth of work to do, right? It's not.

All right, so as we talking about just doing your copy and things like that, how do you know that your copy is effective? So, like, what KPI's or for those who don't know KPI, key performance indicators. What are you looking for to know, like, oh, like. No, this works.

Before you say that, I just want to say to our audience of people that's listening to this, the purpose of our podcast is for it to be for creative entrepreneurs. You can listen to other people talk about entrepreneurship, but they'll be like, you know, so what are your KPI's? And then they'll start talking about the p and L and they just started using all these terminologies. But at the end of the day, you're talking about measuring something creative and that may look different. And that's why we think it's beneficial to have someone like Sierra who can answer that question is, how am I determined if what I'm doing is effective? And also, how do I know if what we're doing is growing?

Yeah. So in my space, and I'm just gonna use like a traditional, let's say you run a Facebook ads to a landing page and you're trying to see, is this working? Typically, you want your opt in rate to be like 20%, 15. If you were like between ten and 15, that's not bad. But anything below ten, something on that page ain't hitting right now.

Hold on, opt in rate? Can you just define opt in rate for our creatives?

So opt in rate means the number of people who went to the page versus the number of people who gave you their information to keep going. Sorry if I'm. Cause I'm using funnel terminology. No, you could use funnel terminology. That's one KPI. So you wanna kinda be 20%. Ten to 15 is not bad. It may just mean you need more traffic.

But if you below ten, something is off. Okay, which now it's time to my favorite word, optimize. Let's go and change up some things. If you got a video now, this is where it gets tricky, figuring out what do I change? I always start with the first thing people see. So whether that's your headline video statement, because that's the first thing they see. So if they're not moving past that, nine times out of ten something there is off changing that call to actions, playing with those. So that's the first step. Another KPI's.

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If you're sending emails in your creative business, you want to be between 20 and 30% open rate. That means people are actually interested in what you have to say. That's where you kind of want to stay in order to not end up in the spam box. Click through rates one to 3%. But that just depends on how often you have something to click. Click through rate is a for real vanity metric, especially now. You should more be concerned if people are opening. Okay, I'm trying to think what other metrics, what other metrics y'all want me to cover.

So you know that, you know, it's effective if people are opting in. You know, it's effective if people are clicking to open this thing.

So the opt in is from the website?

Yep. So, like, if you had, and hopefully all y'all collective people email addresses on your website. So, like, so I was put the cart before the horse there, but that's what that means.

Okay, so they're going. So if they're going to the website and they're opting in, they're, you know, clicking on your, you know, subscription for your newsletter or whatever the case may be. Whatever's on your website for them to click, the opt in rate would be of them clicking on that button. Okay. All right. So we said opt in. And what was next? We said the open rate in your emails. You're sending out emails and trust me, I'm somebody that you don't wanna send an email to them.

I got about 80,000, 80,000 unopened emails in my inbox, so.

But a regular, normal person is not subscribed to all these things. They're subscribed to list that they wanna be on and they initially want to be on it. And they probably was opening up 100%. But if the writing is not good over time, 50%. 50%.

Wait a minute.

You know, inconsistency or if you. Cause they can forget where they even. Why they even signed up. But I'm not gonna go off into that deep end.

But no, that's good though. So it's like if you're not being consistent, sending your emails, that can decrease your open rate. Cause it's like it says, who is this? What is this about? I don't even know when did I sign up for this? Right? So consistency then you talked about the subject line. So it's like if the subject line is not a compelling hook to draw you in to make you wanna open it, then they not gonna open it. Okay.

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Okay. Now I wanna make this practical, too. So if you. How do you know this is valuable? Right? Do I wanna bring her in to consult my business or do I need to, how do I, if I'm a copywriter, how do I let people know that I'm valuable? Because you tell them 1000 people are coming to your website, only 1% is buying something. You just make an issue, you're making a dollar. But what she's saying, if she come in, she can. People who are great at messaging and how that leads to marketing, they're going to dial that message in. So well that when people click on that website, you'll see an increase to 20% of people buying something.

Right?

As you say, about 20% to 25%.

Yeah, you want by 20%. 30% is great, right?

So if you want percent and you, you had a thousand people come and you selling something for a $100. You. Okay, okay. Boom, you made a $100. But if I can dial it in and now I can get 20% to 30% of people clicking on it. Now I just sold way more than what I would have said. So not because I changed the product, not because I changed the price. It's just simply because my message moved them.

That's the terminology kept using earlier. How can I get somebody to be moved by what I'm saying? Man, that's good.

Absolutely.

So just from clear messaging, that should increase revenue.

I had a client last year that I did a vip day with, and she said something. I was like, I need to put that on her shirt. She said, most people think their businesses fail because they don't have a good sales process or a good offer. She was like, I'm convinced most businesses fail cause they have bad messages. And I was like, what? She was like, I'm legitimately convinced. Like, that's what it is. Like that's how much of a shift she saw. Cause most people go, oh, it's the offer.

It's the offer.

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I feel like that's the last thing you should look at.

And when we say, what am I offering this product? Or should I add something else to the product?

I ain't giving them enough, right? Enough people ain't seen it.

No, but that's how I think the typical creative things where it's like, I'm not giving enough or I have to make this better. I gotta create more, or I got, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's where we automatically go and listen, I've been guilty of that, right? Where it's like, okay, cool. Like, ain't nobody, nobody, you know, buying or whatever. So we gotta do more, or let me get this other piece of equipment to be able to enhance this when all it was is like, well, you, first of all, you wasn't marketing at all then. When you started marketing, the message isn't clear, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, no, like, yeah, and.

Here, if I can, like, it's one thing I really want people to understand about marketing, especially people who hire people for marketing. Marketing is not matter of fact, like, there's nobody who can guarantee you anything. What we can do is take our level of expertise and help you, like, figure it out. Right. I also want people to understand that great marketing happens in iterations. Everything you see that probably moved you, that's probably like the fifth iteration of it. So do not ever market your products or services expecting off jump. You're not gonna ever have to change anything.

That's not realistic. Humans change every day.

Right?

And I say that a lot because I've been seeing a lot of people, well, back in 2021, I was doing people not even thinking the same as they were in 2021. They definitely not buying the same. And that's why I've been, like, on that soapbox all year. Like, if you using the same messaging from then you, that's why it's not working. Nobody's in the same place. You not even in the same place as a business owner. So, like, get you, it's iterations. It's never, I don't know anybody wow.

Who I like that. And I love the honesty and integrity in the craft, which is, it's not matter of fact, like we're saying. I'm saying you can go from 1% to 20% to 30%. That's the goal. But I'm not saying, like, it's exact. And even if we did it, we may have to move the messaging again later on to fit this particular era or this particular.

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Yeah, it's, I'm big on that. When I tell them upfront, like, listen, this is gonna, it may take it then it depends on where they are when you work with them. Right. There are some people, one change, boom. But if you starting from scratch, like, you gotta give yourself that grace, that space, that time to, like, really figure it out.

All right, I have a question. I know Ron has a question we wanna end with. But before we do that, that's measuring the effectiveness of the copywriting. But how, if you have a copywriting company, right, you have one and someone else watching this have a company. How can you, what's a KPR like? What's something that you know that my company is growing? Is it I get more clients? Is it I'm retaining more clients? Is it a certain amount of money that I'm, how do I know that my company is growing?

So I think first you have to decide, like, what, what is your growth? Some people do measure everything by money. I measure things about client success. If my client's not making no money, I don't care about that invoice. They paid. Like, I can't sleep at night. Like, I've got to figure it out. So I measured literally everything based off client success. If my clients aren't, then I don't really care about nothing else.

That's my number one measurement. I do also measure, okay, how many people are sticking with me. And then it's like, am I growing with them, or are they starting to feel like, all right, I'm good here, I need something, and do I have that? And that's what led me to, like, start doing more of the consulting stuff because I was working with a lot of people who kind of started middle. They got big, they started having their own teams, and they like, well, I got this marketing person now. Can you just teach them what you was already doing? Right. So, yeah, I'm losing the dumb for you, but now I'm doing more of the, and then I just meet with their team. So you gotta, you have to, like, measure where you're going, where your clients going, and then it's just, it's client success for me. Like, number one, I don't, my bottom line don't matter if they not, that's perfect.

And you're able to grow as a result of that because it's like, if I'm doing done for you, it's a cap on that. But now if I'm doing consulting, right, and I'm training your people now, that can be that one to many where it's like, okay, cool. I can have multiples. I can have multiple consulting clients because it's not requiring that much of me. I'm not hands on doing it.

Right.

Wow.

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I like that.

And then I like what you said about, I know for sure that my company is growing. If the people who I'm serving are now outgrowing me, that fits across every creative spectrum. Even when you talk about, like, a indie artist. Right. If your fans are kind of outgrowing your content, that

means you're not growing. They should be growing with you, and you should be able to retain your people for the long haul. I mean, to a degree.

And you can't outgrow your company, so you also have to make sure you're constantly developing, whether it's your craft. I would say at a certain point, it's gonna be more the mental than anything, though. Like, you, I can kind like. But it, when I did get stuck, it was a mental thing.

Yeah.

Everybody needs a therapist and a coach. Cause some stuff gonna come up and you either go, self sabotage or you gonna hit a wall.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I can relate to that. Those limiting beliefs, right. Where it's like, yeah, our minds limit us from going to a certain degree.

Because you start putting a cap on yourself.

Yeah, you put a cap on yourself. So.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Okay, so the question you said that we prep, we were like, okay, we get ready to talk to Sabrina. Well, what do we got to ask her? What do we want to know? And what would our audience want to know? And there was the thing about business model earlier. We were asking you, how did you. We already asked the part about how do you attract, like, okay, I already know. I know how to write. I'm messaging, I'm marketing. I think like that. Psychology.

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Cool. Boom. How do I get, how do I attract? You know, business model has to do with attracting, retaining, or converting, and then how to retain them. But we already asked you about the attracting part, so you wanted to ask about how does she do the other parts.

Right. So, yeah, so your business model in regards to. So I said, we talked about attracting, but then how do you convert them from somebody? Okay, I'm gazing, or I'm looking at what it is that you're doing, but now I'm becoming a client. And not only am I a client, but like you said, I retain them. So you convert them to a client, but then you also retain them and keep them on for a period of time to where, whether you increase that value of that customer or whatever the case may be. So what's your model for that?

For that? So, number one, looking at where the client is and where they're trying to go and being honest with them in regards to can I feel that need? I guess the best example would be, so are you asking if I'm a done for you client? You got a team now. What does that look like, for me to then pitch the consulting services.

Right, right. Because we already talked about how you. So you got to attract a client, then you have to. You can convert them. They already. They know you exist now.

Right.

And now you convert them into a client. And then now after that, how do I retain them? You just said one of your growth mechanisms is like, I look to see how many people are staying with me. Are they staying on?

Right.

Because that means you're retaining them.

But there is a method to your converting piece. I heard you mention earlier that you do sales calls, like, right, so. So kind of lean into that. Lean into that a little bit. Like, yeah.

So the first conversion is from the.

Initial pitch and positioning, you said.

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And then the sales call, like, so that, like, that's how I sign up. It ain't. You're not going to no page and just checking out. Like, I need to have a conversation.

Okay.

So from that point, you're asking, how do I then take. Keep them? What does that look like? So I look at where they are, where they trying to go, because I always have this stuff in my notes.

Hold on quick. Is it just a sales call? Is it a sales call? Then another sales call? Is it a. It's just one sales call.

So in. So in order to become a client, is one sales call.

Okay.

Where I'm, you know, figuring out where you are, where you want to go, can I help you? That's. I'm always asking myself, can I genuinely help this person before I even offer anything? Based on those answers, did not determine, like, what offer is best, because it could be a vip day. It could be done for you. It could be just consulting. So that's the initial process of becoming a client.

All right, so you talked about how you convert them into clients. So now give us a little bit of how you actually retain them once they're a client. What's done to nurture that relationship?

Got it. So the first thing is serving them at a really high level, doing what I say. I've been paid to do some other small gestures is, I mean, I'm not afraid to say it. I'm more of a high ticket service provider, whatever. Even though that's relative. I always send a gift after somebody signs up with me. I intake their birthdays, their kids birthdays. If any of that comes up while they're working with me, send something in.

And then, like, just regular check ins, too. Like, hey, I don't want anything. I just want to know how you doing this week. You'll be surprised. Like, that goes a long way. Cause people are so used to everything being transactional. It's like, oh, no, this person, like, really cares. Like, genuinely cares.

Depending on what it is, I may see something that's outside of my scope of work. Like, hey, I'd suggest you do. I saw you do this. Here's a quick suggestion. Or did you need help? You know

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what I'm saying? Like, those small things. Now when it comes to, like, just the, you know, the quote unquote pitch or offer, for me, it's for real. Just a conversation. Like, hey, we coming up on the end.

Let me know if you want to renew. This is what it is. If you got some questions, here's why I think you should renew, or here's why I think we need to keep going, and I just leave. I'm not a pushy salesperson at all.

Retaining them. You normally, how far in advance do you give them a heads up? You know, like, with your apartment, they let you know you got three months before you got to be up out of here. So do you do something like, and so is it so far in advance or you just wait till, like, all right, 30 days left?

Like, so it actually depends on the time of the year. If I'm working with someone in the fourth quarter, we all know, like, sometimes they can get a tax advantage if they go ahead and spend a certain amount of money. So it's like, if you want to renew, we in November, December, you can go ahead and prepay for the next three months, which would be January, February, March, and I'll provide a discount like I had. I have a client. He does that every year. He's an accountant. So I'm not surprised that he does everything. So he does that every year.

So that's one thing. If it's not really dependent, like a regular time of the year, like 30 to 45 days.

So I don't know if y'all caught that. She said that fourth quarter, you have these businesses that are trying to unload money, right, because they want to lower their taxable income. So she's saying, listen, I'm going to offer them, make you an offer to where you can prepay, right? You can get this service starting first quarter next year, but you can pay for it now. That's.

She said, you know, you know, we all know. Listen, the gyms are driving. No, we not. We all don't know, but we know now. Thank you.

I love it.

Sierra, I love your. The business model. I think that if somebody's watching this as a creative entrepreneur. And they're like, okay, what do I need to do to attract them? You didn't talk to them about pitching. You talk to them about how to convert them. You need to get a call with this person, figure out how you can serve them, and then figure out what you're going to serve them with, what you have in the things you can offer them. And then lastly, how to retain them and actually being a real person on their team. You said operating even outside of the scope of work.

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Right.

Which is like, sometimes it's just like, let me just be helpful because I can do that.

Right.

I did this, but this would help. It's not my scope of work. And then another thing that we didn't really talk about specifically is that you have, you're now developing another service that's on the back end. And so that's something I want to encourage creatives to do, too, because sometimes you can serve a client to, and that's the furthest they can go with you in that regard. But then, like you're saying I can come in later on and become a consultant to your marketing team.

Right.

And so we're past the point of needing this particular done for you service, too.

Right.

And so that may look different for whatever creative that's listening, but you can kind of develop something different that allows people to stay on what you longer. I just feel like no one.

Yeah, no, this has been a dope, dope interview. So as we wind down, right, is there anything you want to leave our audience with that we haven't touched on or just something that is like, okay, cool. If you can just keep this one thing in mind, what would that be?

Your gifts will make room for you.

I love it.

Legitimate. I know. Especially cause the audience is creatives. Right. A lot of times we don't think our creative abilities are gifts. It took me a very long time to realize everybody can't write, like, period. Not just copyright, like just telling stories. Everybody does not have that ability.

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So, like, whatever your thing is, if you lean into it, it will make room for you. Like, I stand on that one, man.

That's a good one. That's a good one.

I love it.

Your gifts will make room for you and actually realizing that what you have is a gift. Right.

I love it. I think the cool thing I love.

About doing a podcast for creative entrepreneurs is that with regular entrepreneurship, that's not necessarily geared around creativity. You don't necessarily, it don't have to be a gift. It's just something that, yeah, I just wanted to make money on. And I saw a little hustle. I put a little money in, I got a little money out. But this is revolving around a gift, and that makes it precious, man.

Definitely. Definitely. So, first of all, I want to thank you for spending your time with us here today. I know our audience got blessed from this interview, right? Absolutely. Secondly, I want to thank you all for spending your time with us today listening to the MMCB podcast. So what we want to encourage you to do, right, if you're, you know, if you're listening to this on whatever platform you're listening to it, whether it's Apple, Google, Amazon, if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. Like comment share right? If you know a creative entrepreneur, creativepreneur that's currently or aspiring, this is for them. Share it with them.

Please join our creators corner community. You're gonna go to mmcbpodcast.com and you are going to subscribe to our community to where you'll get a monthly newsletter and join our phenomenal Facebook community, where you'll be surrounded by other creative entrepreneurs. You just heard Sierra talk about the importance of being in a community. So, yes. So join that. And that's all that I have. Anything else?

There is something. I like to end every episode with a mantra. So I want you to repeat after me. Everybody here as well. Repeat after me. All it takes. All it takes is intention.

Is intention.

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Consistency, consistency. And laser focus.

And laser focus.

To mind my creative business.

To mind my creative business.

Peace. Perfect.

47:45

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