Transcripts
Well, Kelly, you and I were just talking off air that we really could do one of these episodes every single month of just you and I getting to go really deep into a topic I'm working on and looking at. I share little tidbits on social media, but it's really hard to share this in-depth information in just a quick little post. So it's fun to get to then actually jump on you and I and really spend a concentrated amount of time on this.
Kelly (:and
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Of course it's October, it's breast cancer awareness month. There's so much going around about breast cancer during this month. And it just made me thought, you know what? This, this is a great time to talk about breast cancer, the work I do with breast cancer patients and the common, I think really the common themes, patterns that I see with the breast cancer patients I'm working with, those archetypal patterns, the trauma patterns, the present life.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:dynamics that I'm seeing so frequently and you know getting to be able to I think share there's so much probably going around on social media about breast cancer awareness and I do feel really confident that this information of potential emotional contributors to breast cancer is not being talked about enough.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:seriously, I also feel like, I don't know if it's my algorithm, but I am seeing so much more about it this year than I feel like I have in years past. I don't know if you're experiencing the same, but it's kind of making me think like, is this coming up more? Are we just, is it more prevalent or are people just thinking about it a little bit more this year? I don't know, but I really feel like it was, I was super aware right away, like, it's Breast Cancer Awareness Month and a lot of people are talking about it. So I think this is really timely.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, or your algorithm just knows you work with me.
Kelly (:I mean, maybe, but I mean, even still, there's a lot of videos out there, a lot of content, like a lot of people having these conversations around, you know, I've just received a diagnosis or I'm looking for prevention or I'm trying to go holistic or I'm not sure about, you know, the direction my doctor's taking me. Like, there's a lot of questions out there. And I think it's fascinating that we're all kind of turning to, you know, social media in a way to like get these questions answered. So I think it will be.
You know, this is a great space for you to kind of talk through some of what you've seen with clients in your own experience.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, so because some people might be listening to this who've never been introduced to us before, I did wanna start with just that quick intro to how I got into all of this. A little bit of a disclaimer, and then we'll start to get into some of those general themes. But for those who might be new to me, I was introduced to this whole world because of an early stage breast cancer diagnosis back in 2020.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And the integrative cancer center that I was going to has all of their patients do something called EVOX therapy to support addressing the emotional side of disease and not just the emotional turbulence that comes from a diagnosis, but really where might there be past emotional contributors actually?
Contributing to why this disease was able to develop in the body So that was my introduction to all of this and evox really really changed my life and so then I a year later got trained got certified launched my own practice Last year, I started my PhD in depth psychology. So I'm really pairing these two things together evox therapy as a technology paired with the depth psychology and the unconscious approach to this emotional tending
Kelly (:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, beautiful.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Just kind of giving that little backstory. One thing I really wanted to make sure we said right at the start is I use the term potential emotional contributors very intentionally. I don't even love necessarily the term emotional root cause. I feel like that almost expresses that this is the sole reason there are no other reasons and that is absolutely not what I'm trying to communicate. I have never worked with an individual experiencing cancer.
Kelly (:and
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:who didn't have multiple contributors to, think, why that cancer was able to thrive in the body. So in my work with clients, I'm specifically focusing on emotional contributors. And it's so, so, so important that they're also working with other doctors, centers, and practitioners to address physical, biological contributors as well.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Great.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And I think that's just an important place to start.
Kelly (:Perfect.
Sorry, I feel like I'm always about to interrupt you. I'll just make a note of that.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Now you go, you go, I, I'm like, yeah, you interject. We'll cut this, but, cause I also don't want it to be me just like giving a lecture. I'm sure you'll have like good insights to add to.
Kelly (:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Okay, I noted it for Alan, so we're good. I'll put it on our Monday. Okay, do you wanna start on themes? Is that where you were in our notes, the themes? Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, I think so. Because you we have, you know what I'm thinking is we have that episode we already recorded and we can link it in the show notes talking about in general the work I do with cancer patients. So I don't think we have to necessarily go over all of that again. I think we can just dive straight into what are the themes I see with breast cancer.
Kelly (:And thank
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:Yes. Okay. Let's talk about Kiva Tobrass cancer specifically, but I think it worth highlighting that you've spoken on this before. yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mm-hmm. I'll probably put that in the intro.
Yeah, I might even cut, sorry, Alan. I might even cut my little intro, my little like backstory and just record that in the intro so we can just dive straight in. Clearly my brain is not firing on all cylinders.
Kelly (:Okay, okay.
I got you. I got you. No, we're good. You're good. You're all good. Okay. Perfect. Ready to go anywhere.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:So I, when I was thinking about preparing for this conversation, I was trying to break this down into sort of sub categories because there's themes I see in different contexts. And really the two big categories are there's themes I see with what their present day life looks like. Not necessarily with the diagnosis, but outside of the diagnosis, even before they had the diagnosis, there are such clear themes I see with individuals.
Kelly (:Mm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:experiencing breast cancer. And then vice versa on the back end of that, once I do start working with breast cancer patients, there's a fair number of childhood patterns, childhood traumas, dynamics, family dynamics, generational traumas I see with most of those patients as well. So I wanted to talk to those patterns on both sides, the present day patterns, as well as like the past trauma patterns.
Kelly (:Yeah, right, right. So you've always kind of, you've been picking up as you're chatting with clients, like you're picking up these themes, you've sort of, you've been documenting them for a minute and you started to see this through line with breast cancer diagnosis specifically. When did you start thinking like, I think there might be some overlap here that's worth, I don't know, even just like.
you know, having this conversation over like at what point were you sort of like, wait, I think there's something here.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, I mean, I think it was probably about a year into working with the cancer center while I was there, because that's when I really started working with cancer patients very, very consistently every single week, large, large numbers of cancer patients. And it just was so stark. couldn't not see that there were such clear patterns. mean, every single person I've ever worked with that has experienced breast cancer can check.
Kelly (:Okay. Okay.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:one of these things that we're going to talk about, usually multiple of these things that we're going to talk about, but it did extend even beyond breast cancer. I see, I just started to see such clear patterns with each cancer type, whether that was prostate cancer, ovarian cancer, thyroid, colon cancer, lung cancer, brain cancer, each of those has patterns that I see even though I'm working with completely different people.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:They have similar traumas, they have similar present day experiences they're living through. And you, I mean, you know, and I talk about this, this is what my dissertation is going to be on is kind of the archetypes of cancer and these patterns that I'm seeing. And if cancer isn't just physical breakdown, if cancer is here to communicate something to us about...
Kelly (:Okay.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:our emotional turbulence and inner things that we need tended to and metabolized, what might that be? And I really do believe that where the cancer shows up is with intention. And that's like, might kind of cause people to stop listening because it's just a completely different way to look at this. But that the body chose that area very specifically to communicate a very specific message.
Kelly (:Right. Yeah.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And so already where the cancer is showing up and what body part or what organ tells me so much. And I really do see that as intentional communication from the mind, body and spirit.
Kelly (:Yeah, I mean, I suppose that is sort of a shocking thought, you know, on the surface. But I think when you dig into, as I know we will today, like some of the themes that you've seen and the consistencies, I think it starts to feel more almost obvious in a way. And I'm excited for your clients and listeners to kind of get a deep dive into that, because I think it's so helpful for all of us. I mean, every single person has.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Hmm.
Kelly (:you know, maybe different circumstances, but a lot of us share coping mechanisms through those circumstances. when those, you know, shared coping mechanisms are the thing that potentially has a factor in our body's ability to, to clear cancer cells or to keep us well and healthy, think it's definitely, you know, it's a universal challenge.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mm-hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah. Well, and just that reminder that our bodies are inherently designed to fight cancer. And I just think conventional medicines dialogue around cancer really makes us feel like, no, if cancer shows up, there's no defenses to get it. the reality is we are born with defenses against cancer. So we're not asking, why did I get cancer? We're trying to answer the question.
Why was my body no longer able to fight it off? Those protective mechanisms got interrupted or even turned off on genetic levels. And I mean, you know, I presented that whole webinar a few weeks ago on the four ways we are biologically designed to fight cancer and the four ways that chronic stress and past trauma actually turn all those systems off, which is why this work is so, so important. But
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:It just, I think depth psychology takes that even a layer deeper where it's not just a random in the sense that, well I've had chronic stress, so these protective mechanisms got turned off. If we sort of flip our perspective on it rather than like my body's failed me, my body hates me, actually my body loves me so much. And if we're talking about it in these emotional terms, it's.
Kelly (:Sure.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Bye.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:you know, when it comes to breast cancer, for example, it's my psyche saying, I want you to be free from this chronic martyrdom. And so I've been trying to send these messages for so long, they're maybe not being heard or you never were taught to, taught to attune to them. And so I've got to start to send this message louder. And so I'm going to send it in a very, very intentional way to communicate this specific thing, but even that it's not a punishment.
Kelly (:Hmm
Kelly (:Yeah.
Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:for living in certain ways, it's the psyche going, I want you free of this. I want you to have peace and joy and alignment in a way you maybe never have before. And here's what some of the big things keeping us from that.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:And also, as you mentioned earlier, don't you think it's sort of that in conjunction with, and our defenses are depleted. Like our defenses in this part of our body are just not able to because we are shifting so much energy outside ourselves or in other directions that is not serving our body's needs for, you know, our really primary foundational needs for safety, security, connection. So.
When we abandon ourselves in that way, it's so difficult for our bodies to do their job and to keep their defenses up against things like cancer or other chronic illness.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Well, to that end, the emotional component isn't just one of the reasons why cancer can start to be able to thrive. I think the emotional component is the biggest reason why cancer shows up where it does. Because cancer's looking for weak points in the body. And so the emotional turbulence, the repressed emotions, the unmetabolized trauma, we know we store emotions in particular places. There are actually like,
Kelly (:Bye.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:imaging of energy in the body that shows certain emotions go towards certain areas of the body. So I really do think that's why when cancer goes to a certain organ, whether it's the lungs, the colon, the ovaries, whatever it might be, it's because that point was already weakened and it was already weakened probably because of these deep seated, unmetabolized emotions and experiences and traumas.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Right. Yeah, as you're talking, I was thinking about how a cancer cell is our own body cells that turn on itself, right? And so isn't that so, like so fascinating to think of like how our illness is really just the area of our body where we have self-abandoned in a way and not, you know, cared for and that's not a...
It's not like some sort of, yeah, it's not a blame. Totally. It's not because it's so human and it's so human for us to take a coping mechanism or a way of living that served us in one season and just bring it through all the others, even though it's not necessarily serving us. There's so many ways our body protects us that end up being things we need to shed down the line.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:It's not meant to place blame or shame, yeah.
Kelly (:There's like that use the word attunement when we first were chatting, when we're at like not attuned to our bodies, then it's easy to miss like, this isn't serving me anymore. I need to move into a new direction. And life is chaotic and distracting. So it can be easy to miss the signs, but you you mentioned martyrdom as one of the themes. What are some other themes that you've seen from breast cancer, you know, diet, people have experienced a diagnosis or
who have come to you as post diagnosis and moving forward in their treatment.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I'll answer that. want to speak to something you just said too, because it's so important that it's not to say, I have this unmetabolized childhood wounding, so it's my fault. That's why I deserve this cancer because I never... That's not what the message is at all. If there are unmetabolized things, the reality is it's probably because you never had the resources to metabolize it. You weren't given those in childhood. Most of us weren't. I wish there were...
Kelly (:Mm.
Kelly (:Right. Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:programs in kindergarten and elementary schools and junior highs and high schools that really taught emotional tending on conscious and unconscious levels. So it's not to place blame. It's actually to really validate. And if there are things that are repressed and unmetabolized, yeah, we have grace for those past selves because they didn't have the tools, but now they might. So we can go back and revisit some of those things. So coming to
Kelly (:Hmm.
Kelly (:great.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly (:Right, beautiful.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Present day patterns that I often often see with individuals experiencing breast cancer, broadly I call it the martyr archetype, where that sort of encompasses this woman who is usually chronically overextended, can't set boundaries or say no, has little or no care to prioritizing themself over others in their life.
Oftentimes the self-worth is coming through or even solely coming from service to others. Very... the kind of chronically self-sacrificing and also suffering in silence. Not asking for help, trying to be the one that is doing it all for friends, family, kids, work, etc. There's often a loss of their individual identity outside of the caretaker.
Kelly (:Mm.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:This is often the moms who just are so invested in their kids' lives. And that's not to say that we shouldn't be, right? It's about balance. It's about equilibrium. But so invested in their kids' lives and their identity as a mother that they've sort of lost their identity as an individual person. I also, get, especially with breast cancer, I get interested in which breast it's in, right or left. The right side of the body we know.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Leigh Ann Lindsey (17:37.176)
correlates to father influence or masculine influence. So if it's on the right side, I'm starting to want to ask more questions about what is your marital relationship look like if you're in a heterosexual relationship? Do you have any trauma or wounding with your father or father figure? Or are there trauma or wounding from a male figure in your life? We also might start asking questions about just my relationship to my masculinity. And sometimes it's
Kelly (:Mm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:us really leaning too much into that. The masculine archetype of just go, go, go, do, do, do, don't rest, don't listen, don't slow down. There's always another thing to do rather than being able to find a balance between the masculine, which is almost a very hyperactive part of our being. And then the feminine, which is able to recognize the discernment in rest and balance and boundaries.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Likewise, the left side is representative of mother influence or female wounding and or like excessive fear for the kids. So same thing if it's in the left breast, I'm going to usually be asking about your relationship to your mother or your mother figure or other female figures in your life. And if there is a deep wounding or a deep loss with female figures in your life. So those are some of the present day patterns. I'm seeing.
Kelly (:That is absolutely fascinating. think as you're talking, I'm sort of thoughtful of that kind of common thing we see nowadays of women who are doing it all. They're acting almost as like both the feminine and the masculine in their life in that they're running a crazy professional career, trying to head up the ladder, also maintaining like this, motherhood role at home. They're just.
burning the candle at both ends and how we're starting to see a lot of people just saying like, I can't do this. I'm not fulfilled. I'm not happy. I'm like overextended at every point, but I've never heard somebody link that back to, and there could be, you know, like some sort of, like that could be a contributing factor to any kind of chronic illness or cancer diagnosis. Like I think that's a really fascinating one because I think
there are a lot of women who are feeling that exact kind of thread throughout their lives right now. And it feels like a societal norm that's now starting to crumble a little bit where more women are saying like, actually, I don't want to do, I don't want to play all these roles in my life. I actually want to play just one and it could be either one or anyone, but I don't want to be everything to everybody. And I just think that's like a really fascinating kind of connection to this topic.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah. And that's not to say that if you're experiencing some of these things, you are for sure going to develop breast cancer. No, it's not quite that direct. Cause of course, again, like there's always multiple contributors, physical, biological ones being a huge part of that too. So cancer is able to thrive when multiple, multiple things are going on. But these are just some of the common common themes. And then our job is.
Kelly (:Absolutely. I think that's an important point. Yes, like that's not a causation, of course. Yes.
Kelly (:Yes. Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And this is where we get into the depth psychology of it all. Every woman I've ever worked with knows they're overextended consciously and intellectually. They already know it. It's not like they're just like, no, I'm beep bopping around. I'm energized. I'm getting good sleep. They know they are at total capacity. They are burnt out. They are not being physically and emotionally nourished in their life. They know
Kelly (:Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:they're overextended and yet they can't seem to change the pattern. And that's where this depth psychology comes in. We can't just address these from a logical, intellectual, conscious only level. We know that's only responsible for five to 20 % of our decisions and lived experience. So we have to be looking at this from the level of the unconscious mind. What is going, what got imprinted in my psyche?
Kelly (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:that is fueling these patterns. These patterns are just symptoms of unconscious narratives. That's really what it is. And so really the bulk of our work is yes, to identify the patterns, but really what are the narratives fueling them? What were the experiences in their life and or generational that created those narratives? And then what do those narratives need to be able to be let go and then to integrate new
Kelly (:Great.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:more balanced, expansive narratives to kind of continue life on.
Kelly (:Yeah. And I'm sure you feel like that has a big connection to the body, right? Like that we're not, you're not a separate being from your body. Your inner world, your subconscious world is a part of this physical body that you're living in. it has, it plays a direct, you know, sort of, it has a direct impact on how your body is able to tend to itself, to renew itself, to heal itself.
And that's exactly what we're talking about because I think we're still kind of in a cultural era where people see our mind, our spirit kind of as a totally separate being from this like physical thing that's carrying us around in the world. And yet we're seeing that they are so intertwined and they really interact with each other on every level.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, and now it's really exciting because there's just clear studies that are coming out showing so many different ways that stress is affecting us biologically. So it's not just, I'm stressed, but that's not doing anything right. There's direct and indirect ways it's affecting us. Indirect ways might be, I'm chronically overextended and therefore I'm not feeding myself really well.
Kelly (:Mm.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I'm not moving my body. I'm not getting sunlight. I'm not prioritizing my health. So that's kind of an indirect way of I'm emotionally stressed, which is then causing me to do or not do certain things. You know, do things that aren't great for me, not do certain things that are really nourishing for my physical body. So that then is indirectly affecting me, but it's also directly affecting us in that when we are in chronic stress, that nervous system is chronically in some stress state, fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
Kelly (:great.
Kelly (:Yes.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:pumping out danger signals, which is then having a whole physiological cascade in the body that literally when those chronic stress hormones are in, when those stress hormones are in the system chronically, the immune system gets down-regulated. So it's not scanning and surveilling our body as much as it normally does. We have cells in place that when a cell starts to turn quote unquote bad,
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Those cells can get in there and attack it and kill it off. we know that chronic stress hormones turn off that mechanism. We also have biological functions that when an abnormal cell does get created, that cell gets walled off and encapsulated. So it can't spread anywhere. Chronic stress also turns off that mechanism, which is why cancer can be able to spread throughout the body. So what's exciting is we have real studies proving this. And then on the flip side,
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:One of the statistics I gave in the presentation I gave a few weeks ago was that they did a study of breast cancer patients and the women who participated in emotional support groups had significantly better outcomes in their cancer recovery than the breast cancer patients who didn't. And when we do stress management, those immune, those systems in the immune, my.
Kelly (:Mm.
Kelly (:Wow.
Kelly (:Mm hmm. I got you. I got you.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Can you mark this? There's also studies showing that when we start to do stress management, all of those immune defenses can get flipped back on. So it's really, really powerful and it's not just hearsay anymore. It's not just a nice thought. It's not just woo woo of, emotional work is important. We have real evidence showing how impactful it can be, which is just super, super exciting. But to that end,
Kelly (:Mmm.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Stress management is nice, absolutely. That's an easy place for a lot of us to start. That could look like meditations, massage, long walks, journaling, and we still have to get to that deeper level of the unconscious because stress management alone isn't going to change those deeper unconscious narratives and imprints.
Kelly (:Right. What would you say to someone who's saying, I would love to manage my stress, but have you seen the economy? Have you seen however extended we all are? I've seen how much things cost, how hard I have to work to provide for my family. You don't have the support around me that I need. What is the answer for people who, you know, don't have access always to some of the things that we know are going to be a big game changer for somebody who's chronically stressed?
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah. I mean, the beautiful thing is I think the earth equipped us with really everything we actually need and it's all free. And now, you know, there's so many other paid resources we can lean into the healing alchemy community being one of them. If someone wants something more affordable, it really is meditation, breath work, long walks, grounding outside sunshine, ample sunshine, gentle movement.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:All of those are free. Hydration, making sure you're getting your minimum amount of water every single day. Eating enough protein, protein gives your body safety signals. So these are all free things. Getting to bed before 11 p.m. so your body can do a full detox cycle while it's sleeping.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:So many of the things that can dramatically reduce our stress are totally, totally free. They might take initial intention to sort of change our schedule around. But so we can start with free things and they can be hugely impactful. I love EFT, emotional freedom technique, tapping. Tapping meditations, because they've been proven to turn off the fight or flight response in the amygdala of the brain. It's one of my favorite free resources that
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:really can start to change the nervous system. But it kind of brings me to my paradigm of soothing versus solving. There's things that we do in the emotional, mental, spiritual world that helps soothe a frazzled nervous system. And then there's things that solve them. And what I see often is a lot of people doing a lot of soothing techniques and that's as far as it goes. We have to bring in so much more than that. Don't get me wrong, we need both. Both are very, very important.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Great.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:The meditation, all those good habits, all those stress management habits that give the nervous system safety signals. But if we're just soothing, remember even the nervous system dysregulation itself is not root cause. It's still just a symptom of, in my opinion, imprints in the unconscious mind. So do things that soothe your nervous system. That's the soothing work. And we have to be doing work that's asking the deeper question.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Why is my nervous system chronically dysregulated in the first place? What is going on? What unmetabolized trauma is still lingering? What daily life patterns are totally misaligned to...
Kelly (:Ray.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a big one. Daily life patterns. People underestimate how much the choices that they have put on auto are just wrecking their ability to live a stable, not stress free, but just like have a more stable day to day emotionally. I see that in all of us and myself as well, but a lot of us I think are just unwilling
to slow down long enough to even confront what those patterns may be, right? The work of attunements, if you're not used to doing it, really does feel like work, I think for a lot of us. Yeah. Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:It is, it is work and it kind of always will be work. But to that end, this is why both is important. If you are living a maxed out life in any number of different ways, you are way over committed to appointments and activities and supporting other people. You're in a job that is way too much for you or totally misaligned. If we don't make some changes to some of those things, you can do all the meditation in the world you want.
Your nervous system is still going to be dysregulated and we're going to need to soothe and soothe and soothe more and more and more. So we have to, there probably are present day things that need to change. And if you're finding it really hard to make those bigger changes, that is a process. That's where we got to go. And if I'm living in misalignment, why? What unconscious narratives are fueling me staying in these patterns? And that is that bigger work of it's not as easy as just going, well, I guess I need to change my work schedule.
Kelly (:great.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Kelly (:Right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:or it's not as easy as just going, well, I guess we need to just do less activities for the kids. And we want to honor the complexity of that. It's not just a simple, okay, we'll just change all these things. There is deep empathetic tending we have to do here and workshopping we need to do on unconscious and practical levels as well.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly (:Right. I used to be a little bit afraid that I couldn't get to the work in time. There wasn't enough, it was taking too long to get to some of those deeper layers of what I knew was sort of the foundation underneath some of my patterns and choices. And I was afraid that something was gonna happen before that. My body was not gonna be able to support me through that journey, but what I found to be sort of surprising is that
when you start doing the work, your body almost kind of breathes a sigh of relief and are sort of like, okay, we may not be there all the way yet, but I actually now trust that you are tending to some of these deeper things. And I'm just going to almost unclench a tiny little bit, like a little bit over and over and over again as you continue on that path. And I think that's really encouraging to people out there, even just getting on the path and starting.
can do so much for your physical body, for your emotional world to say, okay, I trust that you've got my back and you're starting this process to actually look inwards and pay attention to me, which I think is pretty cool.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:what I see this all the time in myself and in clients where it can feel like, okay, so I'm, I'm not going to start feeling better until I make all these big changes. Not, not, not at all. I completely see the psyche and the unconscious. And sometimes I'll literally have us do dialogue with ourself like this in session where it's like, Hey, I see all this turbulence you're in. And I acknowledge I'm not going to be able to change all of this immediately, but
Kelly (:Yeah.
Right, right.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I'm listening now. I hear you, I see you, and I'm so committed to staying in this journey with you until the changes we need to make have been fully implemented. And that's like a dialogue we're having with ourself and the amount of peace and safety that can come in just from that, just from the psyche being like, okay, at least I know you're listening now and you're committed to
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:taking that consistent action to make this change. I get that it's not going to all shift in one day. I see immense peace coming just from there. So the peace can start immediately, even as there is a longer path to walk sometimes. mean, sorry, real quick. And let me email my client.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Sure.
Kelly (:Yeah, so kind of along those lines, what? You're fine.
Yes.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I'm going to tell him I'm going to be a few minutes late. OK, and can you just mark this?
Kelly (:Okay, I am marking it.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:one of those days.
Kelly (:I got you.
Kelly (:I mean, we can get you out of here pretty quickly if you want. Or do you have a lot more to say? Okay, yeah, I wanted to make sure you...
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Well, I really want to cover some of the other things. So.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Okay, so I cut you off, you were going.
Kelly (:I I was just thinking it would be interesting to hear from you, you know, maybe what is a question if you've received a breast cancer diagnosis this year? Like what is a, what's a starting question to sort of attune to the inner, the inner world and start kind of doing this work if you're just sort of dipping a toe in, what would you say that would be kind of from a starting place?
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah. I feel like, I mean, the biggest question that comes into my mind immediately is, kind of close your eyes and tune into the felt sense of this, not just the logical answer, but what am I afraid would happen if I said no and set boundaries? I think that is such a big, big, big one. And there might be immediate thoughts that pop up for you. There might be a sensation you feel in your body of like a panic, a pressure in your chest, a constriction in your throat.
You know, your stomach dropping out from under you, but to that end, these are getting into some of the deeper traumas. And actually I should say really quickly, I'll make sure in the show notes is a link to my full PDF document on potential emotional contributors to breast cancer. And at the bottom of that document, it's a multi-page document. There's a whole list of reflection questions that are really, really great to take yourself through. So I'll make sure that's in the show notes.
Kelly (:Perfect.
Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:That it's questions like that and answering those questions that gets us into now those childhood patterns, past traumas of, and if I am chronically overextending myself and I am the martyr and I am, you know, suffering in silence, why? Those aren't just random patterns. Those are patterns that are coming from deeper unconscious beliefs that are coming from past experience, whether it's personal or generational. Generational is important factor here.
Kelly (:Good.
Kelly (:Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:But often patterns I see with early childhood dynamics or traumas are oftentimes they were the eldest daughter who were responsible for all the younger siblings and really became almost like a second mother figure to their younger siblings and was given so many responsibilities. Or maybe they weren't the eldest daughter, but they were a parentified child where they were given a ton, a ton of responsibility directly or indirectly, right? Sometimes children,
Kelly (:Kelly (36:56.718)
Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:The parents aren't asking them to do a ton of things, but that child is so attuned to the parents ineptitude in some ways that just unconsciously automatically step in and start doing things. They're oftentimes that caretaker, the peacekeeper of the family, the one who is just sort of chronically attuned to everyone's emotions and no one even realized they're doing it, but they're like,
Kelly (:Thanks everyone.
Kelly (:Yeah, yeah.
Kelly (:and
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:As soon as things start to escalate, they're doing something to deescalate it. As soon as they see mom come home exhausted from work, she's like, I better start making dinner for the family. So mom doesn't have to do that. And so it's often the parentified child who was given a lot of responsibilities, sometimes even adult responsibilities, very, very young. Sometimes there's patterns of intentional or unintentional conditional love.
Kelly (:Great.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And this isn't always, you know, purposefully done by the parent. It's not even to place blame or shame on the parents. But when kids only ever receive praise for serving others, it can create beliefs of, this is what I have to do to be loved.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:or if they, if that child was in a dynamic where they tried to assert their individuality or they tried to say no, or they tried to ask for help and they were then demeaned or put down or shamed for not wanting to help or asking for help. Again, it kind of creates these beliefs of, well, even if I did ask for help, it's not coming anyways. So better just might as well not ask.
Kelly (:Mmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And the beliefs that get ingrained, remember a lot of the unconscious beliefs that get ingrained in our child's psyche are perceptions and sometimes they're true. Sometimes we did grow up in households where the love was incredibly conditional. And if I was not exactly what my mom or father or caretaker needed, I was going to be put down, demeaned, rejected, maybe even abandoned. And that was true. And sometimes it's a misperception of
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:You know, for example, I think in my case, in my family, knowing my mom, she was so unbelievably unconditionally loving. And yet as a young girl, I saw how much help she needed as a single mom. And so just these beliefs got created that if I don't step in and be the savior for everyone in my life, we're all going to crash and burn. in some, you know, the reality of it, was that true? No.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:But that is what my child's psyche, that's the perception and the narrative my child's psyche created from that, that then persisted long, long, long into adulthood where I had this savior complex. had this everyone's suffering. I'm the one that has to save everyone. I'm the one that has to do the research for this thing and get that thing done and help them set up their schedule here. And it just became absolutely untenable.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:sure.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And I remember in my breast cancer journey, actually after one of my EVOC sessions, this imagery came up of me. And, we use so much metaphor in the work I do. And the imagery was me, you know, those pack dogs that carry the sleds. I was the pack dog and attached to me was each of my family members on their own sled. And I'm the one like pulling them through life.
Kelly (:Wow.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And again, this isn't to place blame or shame on any of my family members. No one asked me to do this. I just sort of stepped in and started doing it. And so I remember in this particular imagery, I had to imagine just cutting all of those ties and the narrative or the kind of conversation with myself beneath it is I can't keep carrying everyone. They have to kind of pick up their own sled and keep moving forward.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Great.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And there's a lot of grief that comes with that, because the reality is they might not. So it is, it's not just relief. And there was an immense relief of, that was way too, everyone else's lives was way too much responsibility to carry. And so there was immense relief. And there also was a sense of grief of if I'm not towing them forward and.
Kelly (:Mmm.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:the end.
Kelly (:Too many lives, yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:giving them all this health support and health advice and stepping in in all these ways, they may never pick it up. And that's hard to reckon with. That's really hard to reckon with.
Kelly (:Yeah, which is painful. Yeah. I also think you mentioned a really important point, which is, you know, it may have been true. It may have been your perception. And I think the perception piece is sometimes hard for people because there is this sense of like, well, if like maybe I don't have a right to have felt that way about my family. I felt that way, but I can't I can't ever say that because the people around me will say, what are you talking about? You were totally loved and supported.
And so I could never acknowledge that. Perhaps as a child, I took in experiences one way that maybe wasn't 100 % accurate, but it still changed how I function as an adult today. It still had a profound impact. I think even saying that out loudly and it's so important for some people listening to just say like, hey, you have the permission to say, perhaps you did grow up in a really loving household and perhaps you still felt unloved or unseen.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:you
Kelly (:And that is totally valid. And that's a valid, almost like contributing factors for some of the patterns that you may have created today. You don't have to validate your childhood or your wounds or your patterns through cold hard facts. That's a way that we deny, and that denial of like you don't.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mm-hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:you don't get to feel that way. It's just another way that we self-abandon and contribute to this root cause, which I think is kind of fascinating.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Well, completely. And I like to remind us that it's not just quote unquote trauma that creates limiting narratives in the psyche. It can just be everyday dynamics. And so I think a lot of people, I've had breast cancer patients who are like, I don't think I have any trauma. And I'm like, it's not just trauma or abuse that can create these narratives that are then rippling out in our life. And again, it's not to place blame and shame on the parents who
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:So important. Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:may have absolutely been doing their best, both can coexist. We can go, I see how hard my mom was trying and that she was doing her best and there was so much love there. And here are some of the unconscious imprints and narratives that I picked up from those dynamics. Whether they're true or not really isn't important, it's just that they're there.
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so key.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And then on the flip side of that, the unconscious loves to extrapolate. So a lot of our work is then going, what I mean by extrapolate is if it was true or if it was true in childhood or the belief got created in childhood, even in adulthood, the psyche is still going, you know, as a child, I was the sole caretaker. I was responsible for everything. If I asked for help, none was coming. And that is still true today. And so sometimes a part of our work is to help the unconscious go, it?
Kelly (:Hmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:And for many women, it's not. For many women, they go, actually, no. If I asked my husband for help, he would jump in. If I set a boundary with my friends, they'd be so supportive. I'm just not doing it. And on the flip side, sometimes we are still in those dynamics. So that kind of then gets us into the nuance of this work of, and if I am still in those dynamics, if I have a partner who isn't supportive.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Hmm
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:If I have friends or family who are still incredibly demanding and conditionally loving, that's a whole different line of tending we have to go down of. And so what can we do? What do we need to do? What's within our power to create more alignment around this?
Kelly (:Right.
Kelly (:to you.
Yeah, yeah. I'm sure some of this can feel a bit overwhelming for someone who's also dealing with a new diagnosis. How do you kind of help people balance the two?
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I think that's one of the skills I'm really good at is in our first session together, it's really just starting with talking about present day turbulence and past turbulence. So I'm really good at getting a sense of where we are present day. And if there is a ton of overwhelm, confusion, chaos, fear, that's what we're going to start with. We're going to do what we need to do to allow the psyche to feel really...
empowered and that this work is going to be palatable and not overwhelming. That is super, super important. So I do think I'm pretty good at attuning to the client in that way and seeing where are they at? If this is too overwhelming, what do we need to do to make it less overwhelming and to start at a place that feels approachable, palatable and not too much for them?
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm.
Yeah, yeah. I also think if you know that doing this work could help your body support itself to heal full stop, I think it starts to feel like medicine, right? It feels like starting to take your medicine. Like this is part of my journey to eradicate cancer from my body. This is part of how I tackle that, yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Outtoden.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah. Well, and what I love and we'll start to close it out here is everyone, like at the end of the session, they feel so much lighter, so much more at peace, so much more honestly, like whole, psychically whole and integrated within themselves. And so sometimes during the session, it is heavy. It can be hard. It can be a bit triggering, but that's what I love about Evox paired with this unconscious work is
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:We're almost never, they're almost never ever ever leaving the room still in that place. Nine times out of 10, they're saying, my gosh, I feel so much lighter. I feel so much more at peace. I feel so much more energetic. I've had people who've had physical symptoms literally diminish in real time in the session, which is so exciting.
Kelly (:Yeah.
Kelly (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kelly (:Wow, that is very exciting.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I feel like there's a second point I was gonna make there.
Kelly (:Fair, fair, marking it. Sorry, Alan. Sorry, Alan.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:What was I saying?
Kelly (:Just that they will start to feel psychically whole all the way, like kind of aligned at the point. I was just saying that it's sort of like medicine and that you were saying that people end up feeling a lot, lot better by the end of a session.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mmm.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Mm-hmm. this is yes and what I wanted to add to that is I remember when I was a patient doing evox and I would you know, I'd be like, I have evox today. I don't know if I have the energy for that. It's it's intense and And then at the end of the session, I'd be like I am so glad I did that So I get that side of the experience too. And like I said, I do think I'm particularly good at
Kelly (:Mm. Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Being able to guide us through in a way that allows it to feel manageable, palatable, and ultimately at the end, super, super uplifting and nourishing.
Kelly (:Yeah, very cool. Well, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, think you brought some awareness to us. So thank you so much for sharing and where can people find out more about the healing out?
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Hmm
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:Yeah, I'll make sure a link is in the show notes below, especially because I'm at a time now where I've really limited client space, which is why I'm so excited Healing Alchemy, my online membership for cancer patients is here now where there's so many amazing resources. I could probably talk for a whole 30 minutes just on that. but there's so many, it really came out of the work I do with my cancer patients of seeing time and time again.
Gosh, outside of our sessions together, here are the four things I'm really seeing all of my patients are needing support with, and yet there's no cancer group or cancer membership or Facebook group that's really delivering all of this to them in one place in this really, really intentional, safe, refined way. So that's exactly where the membership came from, and a part of that was...
Kelly (:Yeah.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:I recognize that some people may never be able to work with me one-on-one, but this information is so important. And so it's a collection of guided meditation, somatic exercises, nervous system support. They have access to all of my podcast interviews. They're going to be able to join live and actually ask my podcast guests live questions, Q and A. There's workshops in there to help them do this work we're talking about.
Kelly (:Mm.
Kelly (:were cool.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:identify potential emotional contributors and then start to tend through them. And then of course, like the amazing community side of it of getting to connect with other individuals in a cancer journey who are approaching it from this more integrative holistic mindset and just being able to find amazing support there. So I'll make sure the link to learn more about that is in the show notes below, as well as that link to the PDF on the emotional contributors to breast cancer.
Kelly (:Yeah, which is huge.
Cool.
Kelly (:Very cool. Yes. Thank you so much.
Leigh Ann Lindsey (:thank you, Kelly.
