Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Untitled project from Captivate

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I'll tell you more about that in a moment, but If you haven't registered for my free masterclass, it's happening Wednesday night, August 17th at 730 mountain time. If you just go to zachspafford. com slash free call, you'll be able to get registered there. Before we go and listen to that amazing. coaching call that I'm going to share with you guys. I want to talk to you about, something that you might have said, or that your partner might have said to you.

If you do this again, I'm leaving you, and we're getting a divorce. So Darcy has used this threat on me more than once, because, because of my pornography struggle, this threat was, it was pretty real to me. It was very real, very meaningful. It meant that all the disaster stories that I had heard were true, and that I was destroying my marriage by choosing to view pornography.

It cut to the core. It cut to the core of who I thought I was, it made being open and vulnerable with Darcy more difficult, and it made my agency subject to Darcy's anxieties while simultaneously Disregarding my own anxieties. Now, by the way, I, I, I always say this. I hope you guys hear me when I say this.

Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not saying because your partner threatens you with divorce that that's a good excuse to lie to them. In fact, we're going to go through that here a little bit, but I just want you to be aware that's not what I'm saying. In the work that I do with men and women who struggle with pornography, there's an overarching question that lives in our minds because of ultimatums like this.

And this isn't exclusive to men and women who struggle with pornography either, by the way. In many ways, every single one of us wrestles with this question. And the question is, and I heard this on a podcast that Jennifer Finlayson Fife was doing, she said, Do you choose me, or do you choose me as long as I keep you happy with me?

And this question is the embodiment of the way many of us treat our relationships with our spouse. For many women, this comes out in the ways that we, they choose to engage with their partner sexually. For many men, this comes out in the ways that they have to present themselves as kind of this knight in shining armor for their wives, you know, someone who does Everything right and has no anxieties.

So it's not exclusive to men. It's not exclusive to women. It's how we try to present ourselves so that our partner stays happy with us. And, and it's not exclusively, you know, these particular things. You'll probably think of something in your relationship where you worry that if you don't live this way, your partner may not be happy with you and, and not choose you in the end.

I know that I really felt that acutely in our marriage and, uh, Darcy and Maya's marriage, even. In how, you know, things went at work, you know, I didn't feel like I could really tell Darcy what was going on with me in my head and emotionally. A lot of people have this in their religious relationship, right?

And, you're worried that your partner might leave you or be upset with you or not choose you because you don't go to church anymore, that's part of what we're talking about here. Now, that presented self, that person that I was.

That I thought Darcy wanted me to be. I wanted Darcy to see me as that person was making myself into someone who kept Darcy happy with me. So I was pretending to be someone that I wasn't in order to have Darcy be happy with me. And as a result, I felt fundamentally insecure in my relationship with her.

I don't know if she really chose me or if she really knew me at that time, I didn't really know. I kind of thought that she would reject me if she knew who I really was. In fact, her ultimatum to never view porn again or get a divorce was kind of a real indicator that if I didn't keep her happy with me, then she wouldn't choose me.

And husbands do this too to their wives. I'm not saying that this is something that just Darcy ever did to me, and she, you know, she's a bad person. By the way, You know, it was part of our growing process to learn this and go through this process of figuring out, wait, I don't want my partner to have an ultimatum.

I really want my partner to be real with me and then we can learn and grow together. Now, this last week during a coaching session with one of my favorite clients, we were talking about his new girlfriend and he's pretty excited about the relationship and is really enjoying all the fun that they're having together.

And I'd like to share that conversation with you and hopefully As you listen, you can hear how this young man is struggling to keep his partner happy with him and how ultimately he realizes that being real with her is more valuable than presenting a certain face to her. And I'm going to apologize up front.

So tell me, tell me how, how are things going with, uh, with pornography? How are things going? I'm good. With dating. I know that was, that was a lot of fun last time we talked. Yeah, pornography usage has, it's steadily declining. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. I think part of it is just having other things to be busy with.

It's just been a busy summer, been a really fun summer. Probably like, Twice a week or so, which I'm trying to celebrate because, uh, I think last we spoke, it was like every day or like multiple times a day. Cause I was just really going through stuff. I can tell I'm noticing just trends, like, you know, and how I'm feeling and how it's totally related to how much I'm using pornography.

Um, dating has been good. I've been dating around super actively and that's been a fun time. There's this girl now that I've been seeing for about a month. She's really really cool. That was actually one thing I wanted to talk to you about as I'm getting like these feelings and obviously they're They're not they're not terribly serious It's only been a month, but more serious of feelings than I felt I think probably ever and there's a belief of mine that creeps in that Pornography has kind of jaded me jaded my ability to gain really deep feelings for somebody Which, rationally, I don't think that that's true.

But it's also, feeling this way about her has also made me feel extra committed to getting over this, you know? Sure. But the main fear is, oh my gosh, like my parents divorced due to like addiction and such. So like, Wow. I'm going to be, I'm going to, if, if this isn't 100 percent solved before I propose to a girl, then the marriage is just like absolutely duped.

Like that's just a non starter for me, which I know that it doesn't have to, that doesn't have to be the case. You know, a lot of your coaching is, you know, most of it is to do with, you know, married couples and things like that. Right. It's scary. Yeah. It's a, it's a different, uh, yeah, there's, there's more emotions involved with it.

More fear involved for sure. Just like, wow, if they knew this about me, though, they wouldn't. She doesn't know right now. No. I don't know if we've talked about differentiation, uh, in any depth, but one of the things that I think you're struggling with and that I think you're seeing from your parentage.

Right, so we all, we all be, we are all about the same level of differentiation as our parents. The, the difficulty is, okay, how do I, how do I increase that? Oftentimes marriage is a really great way to do that, partly because marriage requires you to confront the way that you behave. What do you mean, um, differentiation?

Yeah, so that's A safe amount of differentiation as our parents. Yeah, so differentiation is our level of capacity to be solid in the self that we are. So, I'm good with the way that I behave. While also being capable of choosing intimacy and closeness with other people without enfolding into their anxieties.

It's a somewhat complicated idea, but it, it, it boils down to this. So as I hear you talking about, uh, what's this girl's name? Her name is McCall. McCall. Right. So we're talking about McCall. And one of the things you're saying here is, Feeling this way about her has made me extra committed to getting over pornography.

So one of the things that that reads as is, I want to stop viewing porn so that I can manage the way that she will feel about me. So I can engage her in feeling about like, manage the way that she views who I am. Yeah, essentially, you know, in an ideal world. She would never have to, I would never have to confront this and her in front of her, you know?

Ideally, I would bring this up and be like, that was something in the past though, so we're good, right? You know? Yeah, right, right. And we do this because of how we want to feel. You want to feel a certain way. You want to feel like I'm a good enough guy. I'm a good guy. I'm the kind of guy that she'll want.

So intimacy is not. Sex or, um, you know, anything from, you know, holding hands all the way to, to sex. Intimacy, real intimacy is my partner knows who I am and loves me maybe in spite of all of my terrible, right? Like that's what real intimacy is. Being able to know someone and love them, even though you really know who they are.

That's what intimacy is. What you're describing to me is, right, I don't want her to ever have to confront this with me. Yeah, that might be a possibility. It's not, it's not an unknown possibility, but it's more likely that if I'm worried about how she will handle who I really am, I'm more likely to lie to her.

I'm more likely to tell her what she wants to hear. Uh, I'm more likely to tell her things that will keep me from being in trouble. In trouble, we'll call it. Yeah, because you're, because you're trying to manage how they feel. Right, you're managing how they feel. Uh, you're managing how you're trying to manage how you feel by managing how they feel, right?

So it's a lot of feelings management. I imagine if you look at your parental relationships. Like, I bet you try to manage how your parents feel about you. Oh yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Instead of just being like, well, this is what's real. This is how it really goes for me. This is how I really feel. You manage them in an effort to show that, oh, I'm a good boy.

I'm a good son. I'm a good child. I'm a good brother. Right. All of those things, I am the right kind of person so that you don't get frustrated, upset, mad, uh, angry, uh, or reject me, which is really the issue. So you don't reject me. Yeah. And that's really what you're doing here with her is you're saying, well, I'm.

I really am, I'm extra committed to this not being a problem so that she doesn't reject me. I can manage whether or not she rejects me on this front anyway. Now, good news is, now that you know that, you can be aware of it. Also, the bad news is you can never manage someone enough. Like at some point, one of two things is going to happen.

You are either going to violate yourself through the management of the other person. So you're going to do something. That you really don't want in order to manage that person to continue to affirm or validate who you are, or you're going to reject that person. You're going to push them away. Um, and. And you probably have, you probably have a really good view of this with, between your parents, right?

It's, there was probably a lot of over functioning on your mom's part when your dad started to use drugs. There's probably a lot of, um, managing of emotions on your dad's part from your mom, right? Only certain things I can tell her. She can't handle everything. All of that. So just being aware of that. Now it's time for you to go, well, in what ways am I managing other people so that I can get their validation?

Uh, there's a good book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. It's probably a book you ought to read. Yeah. I've seen, I've seen the, I've, I've heard of it, but it looks good. Yeah. It's, It's a, it's a quick read. I mean, if you read it on, uh, Audible, you can get through it in a few hours. Um, there are some things that I don't really agree with him on, uh, in terms of the way that he goes about not being a nice guy, because being a nice guy is an immature position that's designed to acquire validation, and being a dick is an immature position.

That is designed to set yourself up as not needing validation or not needing others. So not having closeness with others. So it's kind of an interesting and, and he kind of goes into the be a dick because that's better than being a nice guy mode in some of, in some parts of the book. So just be aware of that.

Um, and you're like, I can see right now, you're like, Oh, no way. I can't tell her this. I like her. Right. I like her. And if she knows, she could say no. She could be like people I like. Yeah. People I like can't know this. Yeah. Not right. . Right. Which, which means that you are not going to have intimacy. Not true intimacy.

Not the kind of intimacy where she knows everything about you and you know everything about her and you still choose each other because you want to choose each other, not because you're obligated. Sometimes I think we think of marriage as this place where we obligate someone to us and then they can't leave unless things get really bad.

But really and truly, marriage is about, uh, and real, all, all relationships, even your friendships with your best friends, all relationships are about, we have a mutual choice, we like hanging out with each other, and if we don't want to hang out with each other, we can peace out. And there, you know, there are some, there are some barriers, there are some contractual obligations, there are some things that, Make it harder to get out of a marriage than say, uh, hanging out with your best friend.

But in, in real terms, there's little difference. And rather than taking someone's choice, because when we don't, when they don't know who we really are, we're taking choice from them. We're saying to them, I don't trust that you'll make a good choice. And I don't want you to make a choice that will hurt me.

Yeah. So I'm just gonna, I'm going to puppeteer this thing so that it works the way I want. Yeah. How's that feel? You're the puppet master, man. Well, it's exhausting. It is exhausting. It's actually exhausting. Let me ask you this. Sure. You and I both know how, you and I both have a good idea of what the general population believes about pornography, those that haven't experienced it, those within the church, how, and we also know that the church is, you know, slowly but surely progressing in, you know, how we talk about pornography.

Like, you know, just as I've progressed through bishops, each bishop has gotten a little more accepting of the idea that the first bishop I told was just like, Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no, no. You know, um, the reason I bring that up, how, how, it's, it's scary to, it's hard to not try and manage someone. I feel, I, I rehearse maybe telling somebody about it that I care about in my, in my mind.

I feel like there's a lot they need to understand about it first before they make a decision. It feels like it would require much management. Maybe it's a more acceptable idea than maybe I'm just not giving like McCall, for example, enough credit. She takes a lot of chastity stuff very, very seriously.

We've had, we've had good conversations about this. Um, yeah, there's just, there's, there's a lot of people don't understand about pornography. Just like, okay, hold up. It's uh, you know, it's just you're trying to manage your emotions. You're buffering away your emotions. It's not because somebody in your life who you're trying to be intimate with isn't beautiful enough or this or that and it's not because you're a pervert.

How can I, how can I Choose to not manage that. Well, let me ask you, do you really want to be with someone that you have to manage? Do

you want to be with someone who doesn't want to know who you really are?

Do you want to have to play pretend every day of your life?

No, I don't.

We become anxious because they're anxious. Think about your mom, right? How many times did she enfold into the anxieties of your father? How many times did your father enfold into the anxieties of your mother to the point where he's like, I gotta go do drugs. I gotta get away from it. It would take not become anxious about someone who I've shared this with.

It's not about not becoming anxious. You have your own anxieties. It's about not becoming anxious. In folded into their anxiety. What that means is I don't have to solve your anxiety. I only have to feel mine. So let's walk through. So with, um, with McCall, this might sound like, Hey, I want, I want you to know something really important about me.

Uh, it's something that I've been working on for a long time. It's not something I'm proud of, but I think it's important that you know who I really am. Because if we're gonna continue dating, knowing, knowing who I really am means that you get to make a choice. You get to choose whether or not I'm someone you want to spend time with.

I, I, I view pornography on occasion and I'm working on it and it's not something that I, you know, that I am proud of, but it's, it's who I am. And I want you to understand who I really am so you can make a, And inform decision about our relationship. Now, what do you think she'll say?

Thanks for telling me. Okay. What else?

What the hell? Right. Okay. What the hell? Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that? You know, this is something that I'm. How long have you been doing that? For years, most of my life.

Why, why hasn't it stopped? But it's been this long. That's a good question. Um, part of that is I am learning new skills that Are that are required to manage this. One of those skill skills, in fact is learning to be more open about who I really am and, and be willing to risk your, your rejection. In fact, because porn never rejects anybody.

Porn never says no. It never, uh, you know, it's always on. It's always available. It's always what I want it to be, and I'm learning that, uh, I don't want something that manages me. 'cause that's what porn does. I want to have real, true, open, honest intimacy, which means you'll have to know who I really am and I'm not pretending like I'm perfect so that I can catch you and we can be married.

Then you're obligated to me. Like how does that affect how you think about like other girls when you see them and like how you think about age? When I see a pretty girl, I think a girl, a pretty girl's pretty. I'm not blind.

Okay. Do you, when you, I mean, when you see a pretty girl, what do you think? Do you think a pretty girl is pretty? Yeah. Yeah. You picture just like, do you picture just doing nasty stuff to that girl? No, not usually.

Cause I'm not pretty enough. It doesn't have anything to do with you. I started doing this well before I even knew you existed. It has everything to do with the way that I manage my emotions, and I'm learning to not manage them through porn. Lots of people manage their emotions through high Dopamine activities like food or video games or shopping.

Pornography is one of the ways that people do that.

Why didn't you tell me? Why are you telling me this now, now that we're so like close? Why is, why has it been so long that you haven't told me this? Cause now I feel like you've been lying. Yeah. To be honest, I was afraid I was, I was afraid. I was afraid to tell you because I was worried that you would reject me and reject who I've been.

How can I trust you? You have to, you have to decide. You have to pay attention to who I'm being. You have a good sense of people. Most people do. You're going to track good behaviors and bad behaviors in me. And if you find that you're tracking a bad behavior, I want you to, Talk to me about it. If you find it, you know, I mean, here's the thing.

I don't have, I didn't have to tell you this,

but I want to tell you who I really am, not just so you'll trust me, but so I can be integrated. So I can be the same person with you that I am when I'm alone with myself.

So are you going to stop now? I'm not going to promise you that I will solve this problem in a day.

Why can't you just stop now? Yeah, that's a great question. Part of it is, is that this is the way that I've been coping with and dealing with my emotions through some really difficult times. And as I work through the skills that my coach is teaching me and get better at them, I will look at pornography less and less until one day I will stop.

Yeah. Thanks for telling me. I need to think about it. Yeah. What if she breaks up with you? Is that a good sign or a bad sign? Probably a bad sign. No, it's a good sign. What? I think it's a bad sign about her not being able to It's a good sign you're like, you're, you're gonna save yourself years and years of anguish.

Because that will give you an indication that she's not emotionally mature enough. To deal with the reality of being married to another human and let me give you tell you what I mean If it wasn't porn it'd be something else. It already makes sense. It makes sense what you're saying Yeah, that makes sense.

Like my my dad my dad in more ways Not just regarding drug use the the main thing the demise of their marriage was honestly it was dishonesty Because he was managing how she felt about him, what she thought about him. And uh, yeah, what, what all of us thought about him. Honestly, the drugs aren't the problem.

The drugs really aren't the problem. If your dad was a really good dude and he was totally honest and upfront about how often he used drugs and why, your entire relationship with him and your parents relationship would be totally different. Yeah, probably. But differentiation, this, this idea of, you know, how willing am I to be open and honest with another human and real with another human?

That is more often the problem. Okay, so just real quick before we finish. So differentiation, it's the ability to Be confident in yourself, solid, to be solid and to be solid about who you are, you understand who you are, and to be able to Share that with a significant other, be intimate with them about that, and not enfold into their anxieties, trying to deal with their anxieties, not trusting that they won't be able to, just like, okay, that's your anxiety.

You have to deal with that. Because one thing I noticed about the little role play we did was you were like, well, you have to decide that. Because, you know, I can't do anything about that. Yes, exactly. Because you can't do anything about it, can you? Whatever she chooses, you can't do anything about it. If she chooses you, you can't do anything about it.

Right. If she chooses the outcome you want, you can't do anything about it. But being real is about you. Being open is about you. And unless you're willing to be open and real with your partner, that's going to be, it's going to continue to create long term struggle.

Do you think that you think waiting to tell someone that you're dating, Until maybe they like love you enough to be able to accept that. That's I have no idea. Right. You talk about how many kids you're going to have on the first date. I have no idea. You have to be like an example of managing them too.

Being like, oh, well, maybe maybe if they build stronger feelings for me, like, because obviously you're not gonna yeah that that does Somebody I have a pornography struggle the first date and be like listen You want to go on a second date because I struggle with this Right. This is how I lead for the second date.

I look at porn want to date some more right like I I I fully understand what you're saying. I think there will be a moment when it is appropriate I can almost guarantee that there has been, have been moments in the last month where you have dated this young woman and it was a, it would have been appropriate to say, listen, I, I view pornography, I want you to know who I really am.

I don't want this to be something that you're, that, you know, comes out of left field. Um, and if you want to have that conversation now or later, we can do it later or now, but I want you to know that that's. That's the real me. Um, and, and it's not something I'm proud of, but it is something I'm working.

And, and I'm sure there have been moments when that would have been appropriate. I don't know that I would go to her necessarily today and be like, let me tell you the story. That might be worthwhile. But, um, you know, if her question is, well, why didn't you tell me before? Uh, the answer is, I didn't know if I could trust you.

With who I really am, right? Because that's true. I didn't know if I could trust you and I'm taking a risk in telling you this because I want to be able to trust you

because that's true. I hope this was instructional and I hope that that you learned from this some of the things that you might look out for in your own relationships. To see how is it that I'm working to manage my partner and how managing my partner may not be as effective as I want it to be, rather than directly addressing what's going on for you and her or you and him, as it were.

And just figuring out You know, how that question, do you choose me, or do you choose me as much as I keep you happy with me, is affecting the way that you're acting within your relationships. And vice versa, do I choose you, or do I choose you as much as I keep you happy with me, or I keep me happy with you and vice versa.

So just being really real about, okay, why is it that I'm behaving this way? And instead of choosing your partner because you're happy with them, choosing them because you want to choose them. And, and I think you saw in this conversation with my client that he has been working to You know, remove himself from that playbook that he learned from his parents, which is, you know, as long as, as long as I can overfunction to keep you happy with me, or you can overfunction to keep, uh, me happy with you, then we'll all be fine.

Now he's seeing it and going, okay, if I want to be really happy, then managing my partner isn't the way to go. Working with her to know who I am and let her know who I am and know who she is, is more effective at becoming the person that I am. The people that we want to be and having the relationship that we want to have.

All right, you guys, I hope this has been helpful. I will talk to you guys next week.