In this episode of Clock Talk, hosts Janessa Nelson and Nataly Kian sit down with Curtis Brewer, CEO of Litify, to explore how legal departments can transform their approach to spend and matter management. Curtis breaks down what it means to “move upstream from the invoice,” why it’s critical for modern legal ops, and how data, analytics, and AI are reshaping the future of the legal industry. From smarter budgeting to seamless collaboration, discover practical ways to make your legal department more strategic, proactive, and impact-driven.

Welcome to the Corporate Legal Operations

Consortium Podcast, where we dive deep

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into conversations with technology and

legal operations, as well as thought

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leaders from across the ecosystem.

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This is Clock Talk.

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In this episode, clock Talk hosts

Janessa Nelson and Natalie Ian.

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Sit down with Curtis Brewer, CEO at fy.

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The legal industry's leading

operating platform for law firms

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and in-house legal departments.

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Curtis is an experienced leader in

software as a service transformation,

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including global sales, expansion,

marketing, and go-to-market design,

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as well as bundled subscription

pricing models and renewal programs.

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Product innovation and cloud migration.

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In this episode, we'll start by

exploring how legal departments are

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currently approaching spend management,

what it really means to move upstream

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from the invoice, and why the shift is

critical for legal ops today will also

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cover the role of data and analytics,

the impact of AI and technology.

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And share real world examples of successes

and lessons learned along the way.

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So whether you're a seasoned legal

operations professional, or just

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looking to understand how to make your

department more strategic and proactive,

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there's something here for you.

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Let's get started.

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Hi everyone.

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Welcome back to Clock Talk.

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We have a very exciting

guest, Curtis Brewer.

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He's the CEO of solidify.

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We're joined today.

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My name is Janessa Nelson.

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I'm the Director of Legal Operations

at Attentive and also one of the

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Voice and brand counsel members.

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I'm also joined by Natalie Kian.

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Natalie is also a part of our

voice and brand counsel, and I'm

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gonna let her introduce herself.

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Hello, I'm Natalie Kian, a

legal operations professional.

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I've been working in legal

operations for about 18 years.

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And then Curtis, how about you

introduce yourself to our listeners

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in case they don't know you already?

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Thanks for having me today.

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I'm Curtis Brewer.

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As Janea said, I lead fy, which is

the platform of action for corporate

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legal departments and law firms

that are looking to use automation

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data and insights to deliver better

outcomes for their businesses.

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Amazing.

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So let's just jump into this.

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FY does quite a bit of work around

spend, management and matter management.

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What are you seeing?

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At solidify when you're talking to a

bunch of different legal departments

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with how span management is currently

being done in conversations that we

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often have with corporate legal teams,

I sometimes feel like I'm talking

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to an accounting team versus a team

that's helping drive legal outcomes.

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They're very focused on billing, as

all of you know, they're focused on.

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Taxes, global tax implications,

budgeting, accruals.

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Although all of those things, of

course, are key to the solidified

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platform, we don't talk as much

about how to drive better legal

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outcomes or how to organize operations

in a way that is more effective.

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Things like how to choose the right

way to handle a matter using data.

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You know, should this go to

outside counsel to an alternative

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legal service provider?

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Should it be managed in-house?

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Or maybe you know, how to handle legal

service requests in a different way

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so that the process can be streamlined

and those requests can be triaged more

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quickly and put in the right place.

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So I think there's been a bit of a

change there in that I'm starting to

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have more of those conversations, but

I still end up talking a lot about

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billing and accounting, uh, which

was a surprise to me when I joined

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the industry several years ago.

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My passion in legal operations is

financial management and spend management,

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and in the area of financial management.

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One of the key components for us

as legal operation members within

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in-house teams to support the CLOs

in being able to be nimble and make

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those informed decisions is to be

able to get them almost like a CFO.

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Leadership position, right, to give

them all the right information so that

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they can make those informed decisions

to move quickly because they're being

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asked to change in directions quickly.

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The reality is the need for.

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Their visibility into their spend

in real time is really critical.

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And so at this time, we are so excited

to support all the legal technology

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that is making movement towards this

visibility into real time spend.

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And my question to you is, what does.

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Moving upstream from

the invoice mean to you.

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And what is this critical shift for legal

operations that you believe your legal

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influence or innovation will do for the

legal operations teams impact now in

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the way that we're doing work today?

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Yeah.

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And I like what you, you say

there around, you know, having

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real time visibility and insight.

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Which of course leads you to then

how do we action that and make

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decisions off that information?

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So when we talk about moving upstream

and solidify, we talk about thinking

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about the processes that happen

before the invoice is processed.

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You know, since the advent of

corporate legal operations.

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There's been a heavy focus on

e-billing and the invoice, and

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having accurate invoices and timely

payment, and being strategic about

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that in terms of your billing

guidelines is critically important.

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But that is at the end of your process

of managing matter, and what we've

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found with many of our clients on the

solidify platform is that they've been

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able to have an even greater impact.

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By moving to earlier processes or

what we would call moving upstream.

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So examples of that would be while

the invoice is really important,

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choosing the right outside counsel

for the right work using data.

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Is equally important, and having data

and visibility into budgeting so you

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can have really strategic conversations

with your outside firms, alignment

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with your outside firms, and forcing

budget conversations earlier in the

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process of managing a matter is one

key to stronger financial management.

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We talked about those earlier steps.

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Another example might be the legal service

request or service of process process.

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You know, really the kickoff step.

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By using the right tools, you can actually

gather all of the right information

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to really assess a potential matter

if, if it's going to be a matter.

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By having the right data on your platform,

you can understand your staff workload.

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And be able to think about

assigning matters more strategically

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based on workload and skills.

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And then, as I said, you can really

think about your strategic channels

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that can then manage that matter.

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So that's what we talk about

when we say moving upstream.

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It's it's, Hey, I agree the

invoice is critically important

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and we've gotta get that right.

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And e-billing is a cornerstone

of any corporate legal operations

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platform, but a strong platform is

going to do much more than that.

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And how you manage your matters.

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That brings up an interesting sort

of concept that I feel like I'm still

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struggling with and I know other

people in legal ops are struggling

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with of technology is one component,

but also a need for process.

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We're in such a tech focused world

and it feels like it keeps moving

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in that direction each year.

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Some people may not be super aware or

feel like they're very capable with

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how they're doing data management.

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That's becoming a huge

sort of trend in the space.

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So in your sort of ideal world when you're

working with these different technologies,

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how are you sort of navigating that

data management component, especially

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if it's across disparate systems?

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It becomes much more difficult if

you have disjointed platforms and

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systems that can't talk to each

other, which I think most of our

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organizations have some version of that.

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I think we're all trying to move

more toward platform strategies

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and consolidation, but it's, it's

not possible to do that entirely.

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The way I like to think about it, I think

by maybe leveraging a platform optimally,

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you can take a lot of the individual

guesswork out of process management.

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So to me, like the platform

really is the process.

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It's really kind of at the core of

how we think about matter management.

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You know, solidify at our ethos.

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We started as really a matter

management focused firm.

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It's, it's kind of how can you actually

professionalize operations move to

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best in class operations and how you

consistently manage every matter or

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the right manage that matter, the right

way for the type of matter to then

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yield to all these downstream benefits.

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And so, you know, I think

by using a platform.

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And enabling your teams to then operate

on that platform, that automates tasks

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for them, moves them through a standard

process, has intelligence on workflows and

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how documents and data can move between

different people in your organization

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automatically, that gets you out of

email and like allows you to collaborate

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with your outside counsel on a platform.

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So that you're not emailing back

and forth information, documents,

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staying in sync on what the status is

of a matter, even budgeting, right?

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You're not emailing back and forth on

updates on budget and things like that.

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If you're able to do that all

on the platform with tools

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that allow you to collaborate.

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You're gonna be in a place where

you're much more likely to have

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consistent operations, which is kind

of how you started that question.

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I think Nessa, that also gives you

good data, by the way, because you

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start to have data on time, on desk or

throughput, whatever you call the metric

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at your firm, around how quickly matters

are being closed out and completed.

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You have better data for sure on

budgeting, where you can maybe figure out

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if you're kind of running hot and you're

at a stage in the matter where, you know,

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the budget would tell you you shouldn't

be spending this much money so you can get

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with your firm sooner and talk about that.

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For me, the data's at the end.

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Also.

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In some ways it's like by operating

on the platform and, and making it a

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consistent way in which the different

folks in your organization operate.

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You're gonna get really good

data that you can then use.

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And you know, breaking through silos

of other systems will continue to be

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a challenge, which is, okay, that's

one lake of data, but how do I go

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tap into those other lakes of data?

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And I think from a technology standpoint,

for us as technologists, more than

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ever, we need to be open platforms.

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We need to have APIs that allow

us to talk to other platforms.

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And we have to be willing to do

that with two way data exchange.

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And so one of the things we talk

about at Lit a lot is how we can

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continue to enhance our APIs.

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And you know, our ethos is we're an open

platform because most of our clients

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and partners use multiple systems.

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What you just said about the two-way

data exchange and how, oh God, this is

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such a big issue for us right now for

all the companies that are currently.

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Wanting.

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The biggest desire for all of

us right now is to automate from

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start to finish, whatever it takes.

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However much money, however much time.

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Please, whoever you are, legal tech

provider, help us however we here.

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Call us what?

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Whatever enterprise name you

wanna call us, because I've

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worked across all of them.

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I have my active directory system

that's gonna guide all the employee

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records, that has the security

on who can access what systems.

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And then I have my contract

management systems that is gonna

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lead to the content, right?

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Where are we gonna put those contracts?

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And those could be also connected

to the different CRMs, right?

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Like Salesforce or even

like ServiceNow or Zenex.

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Or the custom CRMs at Meta and at

different large enterprises like Cisco.

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And when you talk about two-way data

exchange, yes, there's the, it's amazing

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that we're all meeting these open APIs

that are allowing the connectors and

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giving us the opportunity to start

connecting all these different systems.

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And what I'm seeing from our

friends, so I'm a technical program

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manager, and what I'm seeing

when I talk to my friends about.

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Where are our projects blowing

up and where are we experiencing

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pain points in implementations?

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Or why is this such a heartache?

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And it's really where the data,

no matter what isn't mapping or

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matching properly, number one.

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Number two.

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There's these unique things that

are called like major upgrades, that

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every time that they happen, you're

saying they break the, break, the

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connectivity, it changes all the APIs.

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These two major issues are causing a

lot of extra work for US technical PMs

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and major headaches for the enterprises

and the legal technology vendors.

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And so what guidance do you have

for us as the implementation?

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Technical program managers that are

out here in the weeds doing these

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implementations for automation from

start to finish that are in the fire.

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You're seeking automation, saving

time, having accurate and consistent

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data in the different places that

your business needs to access it.

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You know, the good news one is that

cloud technology platforms have come

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leaps and bounds with respect to this

over the last five or 10 years, and

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there still are a lot of challenges, but

time alone is moving us forward here.

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First off I'd say, which is any modern

cloud technology platform is going

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to also have strong productized APIs.

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And you know, in our case, you know, we

have productized integrations with some

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of the leading HR people systems out

there, financial systems, CLM systems.

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We, we sort of build those in a way

that they're repeatable and more.

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Battle tested in terms of the software

that most commonly used by our clients.

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You know, I think as a buyer of software

or a user of software, I think it's

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also important that you ask those

questions during the selection process.

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I actually don't get asked as often as

I, I think we should about our ability

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to integrate and our API capabilities.

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It becomes a bit of a more technical

conversation, which most folks

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in the business probably aren't.

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As comfortable with, but I think

that's an important part of selection

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criteria when you're looking at

technology that you purchase.

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Let's assume that you've, you know,

you've got your ELM platform or kind of

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some of the core foundational platforms

you use in the business, but you're

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probably now looking at potential ai.

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Products that are more point solutions

or other point solutions to continue

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to improve operations, you've gotta ask

the same questions of those solutions.

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You know, show me that you can

integrate with my system of record.

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Show me that you can access documents,

and that if you're using AI LLMs, to

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then extract data that you can push

that data back in in a structured way

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so that my individual team members

actually don't have to key things

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in and deal with mismatched data.

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So.

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I think those are some of

the things to think about.

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Unleash your department's full potential.

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With solidify, built with enterprise

technology, powerful business

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analytics and artificial intelligence,

solidify acts as a force multiplier

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so your team can meet growing

demand and increasing workload.

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Automate the noise, surface insights,

and provide a seamless experience

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from intake to invoice, turning

your legal operations into impact.

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Unleash your best solidify.

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So I think that you sort of mentioned

a point that I think that we should

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explore a little bit further around ai.

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AI is kind of the hot topic

currently in sort of any tech

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space, especially legal tech.

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So where do you sort of see AI

making the most meaningful impact?

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There's a whole range that

it can do, but some of it is.

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In my opinion, a little over-hyped, but

there is very practical solutions for ai.

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And so where are you seeing where

teams are sort of succeeding the most?

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I don't know that I can get through a

day without talking about AI these days.

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I dunno if you guys feel the same way.

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And I was like, we're just heating up.

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So it's, you know, it's gonna

become even, even more lit.

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I actually, every year we survey

over 300 legal professionals as

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a pulse check on AI adoption.

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And I won't talk too much about that, but

one of the really interesting things that

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we've seen is that corporate budgets to

invest in AI have significantly grown.

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But most of the team members feel

that they haven't necessarily been

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trained, enabled, equipped to actually

figure out how to get the most out of

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AI tools and across all industries,

whether it's legal or anywhere else.

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I'm sure you guys have seen

this as well, just in the news.

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There's obviously a great deal of

investment in ai, but most corporations.

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Can't point to real ROI.

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They can't point to cost

savings or the ability to be X

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percent more productive, yet.

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There's been a lot of experimentation,

but no one's really getting to that point

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where they can say, Hey, I'm seeing real

business impact, real business value.

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And so when we think about AI on

our platform, we always start with

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saying, Hey, what are the parts of the.

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Corporate legal matter management

process that could be most automated

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or could be most enhanced to

help users make better decisions?

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Generically, I would say, anywhere

where there's a lot of data, a lot

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of documents that could be better

summarized, better evaluated for

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discrepancies, you know, where data can

be pulled out and, and structured in a

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way that you can use it to, to automate.

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Workflows are the most exciting

areas we've started, honestly.

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With the bill.

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So, and this is a place you see a lot

in ELM and corporate legal is trying

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to use AI powered tools for invoice

review, for line item invoice review

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so that you can use the AI tools to

better flag potential issues, potential

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violations of billing guidelines, and

then a member of your team can validate

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those and help take action on those.

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So that's an example you can think about,

like a lot of data, a lot of invoices.

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A great place to create automation.

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We also get excited about coun

selection and actually using.

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Sentiment data from your teams,

how they felt about their

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interactions and their success.

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Working with firms that are part

of your panel, how we think about

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costs versus complexity of work.

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And you really using AI powered tools

to help any individual on your team

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select the right counsel for the

right work at the right price, and

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hopefully to get the right outcome.

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So that's another one

that we've looked at.

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And then finally, you can also

think about where you interface.

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Of your business.

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So another place I think ripe for

automation is helping your stakeholders

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self-service where possible.

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We have one client that it started using

AI to help them in their legal service

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request process to basically help.

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The business stakeholders find information

more quickly, answer questions they

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have and assess if they're truly, one

is self-serve on things like NDA is

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another, like simple contractual things,

but then also assessing if there really

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is a matter that needs to be created,

and that team saw a 50% decrease in

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the requests coming from the business.

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Because the business was self-serving on

so on, on 50% of what would've come in.

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Now a lot of those don't become

matters, but they take time from

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your team to go chase information

and ask questions and support your

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business, so, so that's another area.

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I've given you kind of three

different examples, but

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anywhere there's a lot of data.

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AI tools are great at

summarization, they're great at

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data extraction and anywhere where

you can use them to help folks.

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Self-service, I think is

another great opportunity.

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I think that's really nice for the

listeners to hear sort of practical

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ways where we're seeing successes.

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I think that really helps with

people wanting to try and sort of

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do those and have success and then

they can explore more opportunities.

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Yeah, and I think it's,

honestly, what we're seeing is.

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Adoption has been challenging.

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So I think if you can start with a

really clear use case or two that

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you're going to use and you focus

on training and enablement and your

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team provides feedback of, you know,

what would help you use this tool?

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You know, how can we, this

tool save you more time?

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What if it did X?

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You know, those types of things

I think start very practical

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is what I would recommend.

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In your experience, what is

the biggest missed opportunity?

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When the legal teams wait until

their invoice stage to evaluate

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performance or value, it really

links back to choosing the right.

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Resource for the work is really where you

can drive the greatest impact and legacy

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thinking for legal operations teams is

often based on individual relationships,

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kind of drive where the work goes.

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And I think relationships with your

outside counsel and alternative

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legal service providers is very

important and should be invested in.

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But you really wanna equip your team

members to be more sophisticated.

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Almost buyers like, you know, I think most

attorneys or paralegals or case, you know,

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they don't think of themselves as buyers.

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They're, they're not procurement, right?

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They don't think of themselves that way.

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But when you are going out and,

and contracting with a firm,

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maybe over a large matter or a

large IP matter or something, you

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truly are a buyer at that time.

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So I think by giving more data and

information to your team members to choose

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the right channel, the right resource.

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For the work.

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That's gonna be your biggest chance,

I think, to move the needle cost

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and, and hopefully outcome as well.

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'cause although we're really focused

on budget and cost, we also wanna

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be able to go back to the business

and say, we delivered this great

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outcome on this matter that's going

to move the needle on the company.

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I love how your focus is on the

front end and then even though this

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invoice processing from procurement,

right, once the vendor's been

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picked, they've done the service.

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We accrue for those services that have

been performed and we forecast that

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service is coming and then we budget for

it for the quarter before it, and then

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we know that the invoice comes through.

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That's a really old process.

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Nothing new, nothing sexy there.

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I do think there hasn't been

much innovation when you talk

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about legacy, ways of working.

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There's this legacy way of working

in that whole procurement to payment

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process that we are excited about

as a legal operations community too.

378

So I know you're looking at the front

end, which is there's a lot of value

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in knowing should this matter be

handled by in-house or outside counsel.

380

Should we be doing it?

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Where's the value here?

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Where should it be?

383

Should it be, you know, and then

choosing, okay, let's go with

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outside counsel, and then which one?

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And then what's an appropriate pricing?

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And then great.

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And then it goes through

the old ways of doing work.

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But in that old way of doing work,

there's a lot of efficiencies that we've

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been waiting for for really long time.

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And I'm just saying that

because that's been my world.

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And I can tell you, I've been sitting

in rooms and many conferences, excited

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to hear for legal technology providers

to come up with something different

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or to listen to us who work in those

operations and say, Hey, let's work

394

together and collaborate on coming

up with something more efficient in

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the way that we build these tools.

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Right?

397

Because that's what you're

doing with the front end.

398

I don't know your tool.

399

In depth, please excuse me.

400

I've only seen one demo with meta about a

year and a half ago, so I think there have

401

been many versions that have come out and

changes, but I, what I did see was kind of

402

a legacy way of working and to be honest,

across all legal technology vendors.

403

I'm very excited and looking

forward to the day where this legacy

404

way of working is where we were

promoting new ways of working for

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that invoice to payment process.

406

That is so painful.

407

Yeah, no, I, I hear you there

and I think that's where some of

408

the AI powered tooling will help

create more automation there.

409

I think also, Natalie, that.

410

We've invested a lot in budgeting

capabilities and more advanced,

411

sophisticated budgeting capabilities,

and so e-billing is foundational,

412

but how can you do that better?

413

You can also be much more sophisticated

in how you structure budgets.

414

For matters.

415

You look at phased budgets, you

can have enhanced forecasting tools

416

and visibility real time, which

is very important to our platform.

417

All the data is real time, so you're

not having a lag budgeting at the

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matter level, at the department level,

and using our platform, our portal,

419

so that your outside counsel actually

have visibility, of course, that you

420

grant and decide what you want them to

see, but you know, they have visibility

421

into tracking versus the budget.

422

Any other alternative, the arrangements

that you might structure, which can

423

be all done on the platform so that

you're not then kind of in that

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late stages of a matter, realizing,

okay, we're like not on track here,

425

and there hasn't been a discussion.

426

Our outside counsel firms.

427

I would say for us it's

a yes and question.

428

You know, we want to provide the most

sophisticated e-billing platform and the

429

most effective e-billing platform on the

market for corporate legal departments.

430

But we also wanna do more than

that because we think there's a

431

lot of value being left on the

table, early stages in the process.

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So it's really, you gotta do both.

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I.

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I think our last point, which we're

really interested in because you're

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so active in this space, in the legal

technology space, is what's one innovation

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you're watching closely right now?

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One innovation that I'm most excited

about is innovation in the legal front

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door or legal service request space.

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I mentioned how you interface

with your business stakeholders.

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I think.

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New software platforms and often using

AI are beginning to be able to better

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meet your stakeholders where they are,

whether that's in Slack or other tools

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that you use, getting things out of email.

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Also, giving your business

stakeholders visibility into what's

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happening with the matter over time.

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I think there's a lot of innovation there.

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If I put myself in the seat of a

corporate legal department, one of

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the most important things is that I.

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Become a really strong business

partner for the business.

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And I think that there's a lot of good

innovation kind of to, to both enable that

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so that you are a strong business partner

to the business, that you give great

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service, that you deliver great outcomes,

and also to have the data to show it.

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Because every year at budgeting cycles

and when the strategic investment

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decisions are being made, you know, legal

needs to have a seat at the table and

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it's only gonna really be successful if

they have the data to tell that story.

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Clock is expanding and we originally

started off as our membership.

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So what I mean by is expanding is

originally we were like people who

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worked at law firms and people who

worked at in-house departments.

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If you were a legal operations

member that worked at a company and

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in an in-house legal department,

or if you worked at a law firm.

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However, now we're including launching

this year a LSPs, and there is this

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chatter going around a whole new

way of working, and it includes me.

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It includes a lot of my friends.

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And so I had this question.

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I recently launched my own business

and I have clients that necessarily

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aren't looking to purchase an

entire legal technology, make a

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big old commitment to the company.

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So there are these new legal.

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Technology vendors that are

supporting SSPs to allow us to use the

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technologies on behalf of our clients.

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And so, for example, my client

could be the large companies

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that I used to work for.

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The big companies, for example, the

Workdays or the Metas or the Broadcoms.

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It could be those companies that

hire me to do the work for the

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people that I used to work for.

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However, I would use legal technologies

that would allow me this new relationship.

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So I was just wondering, how

do you see the opportunities

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for a LSPs going forward?

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Because I know this is a different

type of relationship now.

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This is a type of.

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Customer for legal technology providers.

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So do you have any thoughts on that?

483

Yeah, that's an interesting question.

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I think timely, given the evolution

with the LSPs and, and their use and

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partnership in legal, I'll tell you

maybe first how we've thought about it

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and then there may be like a more to

come answer, which is I think we still

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have something to learn here and we

could talk more, maybe even offline.

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So, you know, at Lit we've

invested a lot in our.

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Corporate portal, which both a LSPs

outside counsel, internal teams,

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all of them can use to collaborate

on matters and to work together.

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That includes sharing documents,

data, as I mentioned, budgeting,

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information, status updates, et cetera.

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So we've sort of approached this evolving

landscape of who's going to work on a

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matter and there could be many different

channels, you know, that work on a matter.

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Let's create a really

powerful platform that.

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All of those folks can collaborate on.

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Now when it comes to A LSP specifically,

and if, you know, hey, if operating on

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behalf of a corporate legal department,

they could benefit by using the same

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tools as that corporate legal department.

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I imagine it's kind of where you're going.

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I love that idea.

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It's not something that we've

actually explored exactly.

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But it's an interesting question

and I, I do like where you're going.

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So Natalie, I think for me, you might

have stumped me on my last question.

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I'll have to, uh, maybe come back to you.

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I'll have to talk a little more

about what that might look like.

507

Well, thank you both.

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I've really enjoyed this.

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Thank you so much, Curtis, for joining us.

510

You've been an incredible guest

just hearing about your thoughts and

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opinions and experience in the space.

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Thank you everyone for joining

Clock Talk for this episode.

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We hope that you took some practical

solutions and some new ideas.

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From this episode, that wraps up another

insightful episode of Clock Talk.

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A huge thank you to our guest, Curtis

Brewer from FY for sharing his expertise

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on legal operations matter management, and

the critical shift toward moving upstream.

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From the invoice, we explored how legal

teams can leverage data and analytics.

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The practical impact of AI and even

shared real world successes and

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lessons learned from the field, from

understanding spend management to

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balancing automation with human judgment.

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There's a lot for legal departments to

consider as they modernize and innovate.

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Catch this in other episodes

of Clock Talk on clock.org

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under content.