On this episode, Join Mike and Morgan as they welcome their new co-host, Melissa Black, to explore the vital and often overlooked subject of women's mental health. As a myriad factors can contribute to the psychological well-being of women, it's critical to recognize the unique challenges women face throughout various stages of life, including puberty, pregnancy, and menopause. The discussion also highlights the evolution of societal attitudes and the increasing recognition of the need for specialized care given the historically skewed approach of mental health research and treatment.

Learn More About Topics Mentioned this Episode:

The Mother Wound

Misogyny

Perimenopause

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Welcome to A PsychoDelicious Conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining.

So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

I am Michael Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen.

And a couple of weeks ago Morgan and I decided that we. There was something missing in the room and it was the female perspective.

A lady.

And so we have also with us.

We recruited a lady.

Hello. Thanks for having me guys. I'm very excited to be here with you.

Tell us a little bit about your background, Melissa.

Well, I grew up in the Lansing area, went to school here.

Where'd you go to school?

Went to Waverly.

Oh wow.

Yep. Moved around a lot when I was little and then mid 20s, ended up going to LCC.

November 5th will be 20. So 20.

Yeah.

Worked at CMH for about almost eight years and then worked as a psychiatric nurse for almost 10 years in the community, but then became a nurse practitioner almost four years ago I graduated, so.

So Melissa and I met each other. Gosh, what year? Now I'm.

I was finishing nursing, like RN school. I was going to Michigan State and you came to work as a nurse and I think you were at C. Were you at CMH before that?

Yeah, but I was a tech at CMH for all that time.

Was that your first nursing job? Was.

Yeah.

So all three of us were psych techs at one time or another in St. Lawrence. That's pretty crazy. And of course the fourth voice is Daedalian Lowry. Hello. I was not a psych tech.

He is our producer and sometimes chimes.

In on any manner. I'm the psycho delicious of this.

And you're a nurse practitioner now? Both of us are. We were kind of going to school. We were working together.

We.

I did become a nurse. We worked together on the psychiatric. On the adult psychiatric unit as nurses. And I was going to school.

You were going to school and actually your then Boyfriend, then to become husband. Indeed, was also becoming a psychiatric nurse.

I should have warned you. Sometimes it gets very personal.

I'm profound.

Shout out to Ryan.

Hi, Ryan.

Hi, Ryan. He was pretty cool. We met working on the psych unit. Yes.

He also was a psych tech.

Well, we're a community based podcast, so Sparrow Hospital is a big employer of individual.

CMH, St. Lawrence, all those places. Yeah, for sure. Well, today's topic actually is women's mental health.

And I do happen to know a little bit about that. I do.

That's good. That's what we're waiting for, I think.

You know, when we were. We had an episode on shame, and so we were talking about shame. And a lot of what we do is, you know, mental health.

Professionally informed, but also our own backgrounds, personal experience. And I remember walking out and thinking, you know, if we had a woman on this show. And I think I even said it, you know, I think you did.

I think you said, didn't wait for you to walk out. It happened right here. It's like we realized that we didn't.

Have the female perspective. So today we are talking about women's mental health. And this really, in the industry of mental health is a thing for sure.

Some people specialize in women's health and women's mental health, and that is important. And I think maybe we should recognize that this is maybe a more recent push or trajectory.

I mean, there's always been women's health, but maybe more of a recognition.

Are we sure?

Well, I'm pretty sure as an authority, but now I think more so now do we recognize a different approach or a different conceptualization of women's mental health is probably most of the time important.

Absolutely.

And there has technically been what has been labeled as women's mental health, I mean, for sure since the Victorian era when everything was about hysteria. Yes, exactly. But it was even into the 20th century and a long ways into the. I mean, through the 50s and the 60s, that that was still.

Most of the theories, most of the attitudes were still kind of related around the mom's fault.

It was the mom's fault.

Yep.

Even some of the folks that I've talked to over the years, I mean, they were raising kids with developmental disabilities and like mental illness, like schizotype disorders, and were told by their therapists and like, have discussed with me, well, this Is because there's something wrong with you as a mom. Like, you created this and just that kernel of devastation alone.

How do you recover from that or how do you deal with that when it's your provider who's telling you that you've created a mother wound that made your child super sick, let alone.

Did you say a mother wound?

I did. There are so many different mother wounds. There could be.

Is that a term? Did you make that up?

I did not make that up.

Wow. I've learned something. Mother wounds.

Yes. Mother wounds.

Father wounds, too.

Yep.

You knew about this?

Yes, I know.

I was thinking you have some deep mother wounds.

Absolutely.

Teasing. Absolutely. So teasing. But he just. Yes, apparently he does.

It's true.

Well, and if a mom isn't, you know, if the person who's birthed or raised the child. And again, I also wanted to say there's a lot of. Yes. Talking about women. There are a lot of different ways to be. That just women encompasses a lot.

So a lot of what the data will be reflecting is folks who were born with uteruses and go through life without any other type of, like, specialized care or different kind of a average trajectory. I tried to think of the good term for that, but it certainly doesn't speak to other folks who identify as women.

A lot of hormonal stuff will come up and that. I think there are a lot of different paths that you can take. And it's all encompassing, you know, encompassed by women's health.

So does that make sense? I know.

I feel like I'm a little like. So we talk about things in kind of cultural terms and sort of, you know, and there's a lot.

A lot, you know, and with gender and the meaning of gender and what it means to be a woman or what it means to be a gendered individual, whatever that may be. And that's super kind and probably even more complicated. And I don't know that's more common, but it's a hot button issue.

It's a hot topic these days. So that's one piece. And I think hormonal, the hormones. Because a lot of women's health is traditionally peripartum.

So things around pregnancy and things around menstrual cycle, because from at least a physiological standpoint and emotional things change during those times for women, or they can.

And so a lot of times when I've encountered women's health, and I should say I'm definitely not an expert, I've needed to really beef up my comfort level working with women and thinking about Things from that perspective in terms of, like, assessment and stuff. But there's definitely psychiatric disorders that we diagnose based around menstrual cycle.

You know, premenstrual dysphoric disorder is the one that comes to mind for me.

Yes. Let's say we have a group of women and all are just average folks with average health statuses.

They could all have different types of menstrual cycles. They could all have different ages of onset of puberty, of menstruation, of gaining their secondary sex characteristics.

And it can all be at different levels, take different periods of time. So it is so individualized from person to person that applying this range of normal lab values or applying this.

Well, this is what normally happens, especially now, the model is not really consistently applicable from person to person. And I think that's gotten even.

It was just more apparent over the last 20 years or so when they've been doing more research actually on women's bodies and health versus applying data on men's health and bodies to women.

Out of curiosity, do you guys have a sense of what kind of ratio of men versus women you have on your client list or client base?

You know, it's interesting because I looked it up.

I did. We did not looked it up.

I looked it up just for this last month. And it was. It was 50, 50. I see 50% men, 50% women.

A piece of it, you know, that I think about is just in a generic sense, how different are men and women and how much of it is cultural influence, how much of it is genetically based, how much it is. Is it familial? And I've noticed that there's a difference between men and women.

This sounds ridiculous, but the further I go into life, the more differences I see and the more differences that I get sensitized to. But just the way life lands on your nerve endings, so to speak. Yes, I think is probably really different for men and women.

And what would you highlight that most men don't get? What would you say? I mean, how would you like that?

They don't understand.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, goodness. Well, that could fill a lot of.

We could do a whole season on women.

Fifteen more minutes.

I think that one of the biggest things that comes to mind is the minimization of women's ability to function and to do all of the things that we need to do while still going through these physiological processes, but also missing the point of like, yes, over centuries we've been forced to do that, but some support, some shared load carrying some acknowledgement of that some acknowledgement of how much of a tax that is every month or, you know, every cycle for each woman. So I think there's a lot that is put on women's shoulders that we aren't even aware we're carrying.

And I think men may miss the boat on being able to make a difference there.

I was going to say one way that this showed up for me is when my granddaughter started to explain to me that I was mansplaining. Something would come up and I was explaining. She said, grandpa, you're mansplaining. And also the fact that we elected.

We've had two women candidates, very qualified women's candidates, and instead we got a reality television host elected twice who's got a very checkered past. And it's kind of like just like boggling, like.

Absolutely. And that for so many women that I know, watching someone who has been convicted of sexual.

Sexual assault, all these things, I mean, it truly has been just hugely triggering.

You know, I know that word is used a lot, but to watch someone who has been convicted be the leader of the country and then also he's minimizing or, I mean, truly flouting the folks that have accused him that he's assaulted. As the vast majority of women have experienced sexual assault of some type within their lifetime.

So even it's just outrageous.

It's epidemic. Absolutely. And has been for a really long time.

But to watch something like that happen and to have your experience really minimized or disregarded has been really, I don't hesitate to use the word, profoundly traumatic for victims of sexual assault of any kind. But.

Well, I would say misogyny.

You know, the concept of misogyny and which is just everything is, you know, sort of looked at, understood classically through, like, a male gaze like that. There's just not really that women's health is really a specialty area. It is not just health. It's not just 50%, you know, equally. It's.

It's this area of specialization or special consideration and the experience of ladies having to navigate through that of just always sort of expecting or.

And I'm not a woman, so I don't know, but I would imagine just having to navigate through a space that is consistently and constantly lensed through a different or through the other perspective.

Absolutely.

You really go, I think, kind of prepared to, like, either submit to whatever the care provider is going to prescribe or to fight for explaining that, you know, no, this really is a problem. Whether that's usually around perimenstrual and Peripartum type issues and they start so early. One of the big things that has come up.

Like perimenopause.

Oh, no, like the. Just the hormonal changes in women.

And gals.

And gals. Yep, yep. So, I mean, that starts sometimes before nine years old. So then you have regular puberty.

And as things go along, if you have any, I mean, stress can change how the hormonal system works, diet, whether you've been abused or anything like that.

So what do you see in both of you? Let's talk about girls. I mean, adolescent ladies who are, I guess they're girls.

Adolescent girls as their pregnancies, pubescent or, you know, 11, 12. That range mental. Not necessarily, you know, specific to their. But just mental health in general.

The biggest thing that I see is the societal and social pressures and how kids are really awful to each other a lot of the time. And that's been the biggest trigger.

But also, like, if family doesn't have an attitude of support for mental health or anxiety, a lot of things are dismissed, you know, like, oh, that's normal, you'll get over it.

And I didn't. It was pretty rare for me to ever see a girl in that age range. Clinically.

I would have little boys refer to me back in the days when I was working with children.

But as the father of a girl daughter and the grandfather of a granddaughter, I saw kind of that reviving Ophelia thing of these girls being so strong and confident and hitting a certain age where all of a sudden you see the discounting, the way that the social circle would take them apart, you know, And I think it got worse with social media and it was just really rough. It was just awful.

But so I think that misogyny that you referenced, and if anyone out there doesn't know what misogyny is, it's like a hatred of women to varying degrees. Either just the discounting, the mansplaining, or the I'm going to talk over you and I'm going to.

Or the thing that you said five minutes ago, I'm going to say it now and I'm going to take credit for it, that kind of thing. All the way to we're on the verge of Halloween and one of the big.

I love scary movies, but one thing that drives me crazy that I hate are the slasher movies. And they're so popular. And I think it's a way of like celebrating the slaughter of women that just is really. I've never enjoyed that.

I like ghost stories, you know, I like creepy stuff that you can't explain.

I'm thinking now like a feminist reading of. I'm sure there are tons of feminist readings of critiques of horror movies.

Absolutely.

It's such a cultural stereotype trope. You know, the.

Yeah.

And also the. You know, the. The kind of dumb, beautiful, buxom something about gore, violence and sexuality. But also. Yeah, there's a lot there that.

That's a different podcast.

This is one of the. We're changing genres now, too.

I love horror. I mean, I love horror movies. Old school, you know, the whole deal.

But Mike may have ruined my taste for slasher movies. Thanks.

Yeah.

Now, what about you, Mike? You didn't see or you didn't typically see? Now, why not? Was that a choice or just having that your, like, practice? Just.

Well, I think it was a combination of things.

Well, I would say in mental health, I would say that there's kind of a stigma. You know, it's a difficult population to work with.

I worked with a lot of families and so there would be young daughters and families. But in terms of seeing, when I think about the play therapy that I used to do with kids, it was always with little boys.

And I think that that was some of that was self selection. I would have wanted my daughter or granddaughter to see a female.

Well, a larger question where I was going was, do you think it's important for women or, you know, girls to see providers of the same gender? Do you think that there's a value to that?

That is a very good question. I've been thinking about that leading up to us recording today.

Is this being recorded?

Don't worry.

Oh, no. Now, what was I saying?

I'm sorry.

Thanks. My.

Interestingly, when I went to seek a therapist myself, I actually seeked out a woman. I wanted a woman's perspective on.

A lot of men do.

Yeah.

I just felt more comfortable when folks.

Are looking for a therapist that I'm working for. One of my questions is, would you prefer a male or a female or does it not matter to you?

And that's what I ask as well. And I do find that there have only been maybe a handful of women I've asked that question to that say, you know, I don't get along with other women.

I'd prefer to talk to a man.

I've heard.

But a lot of times it is.

I've dated a lot of those women.

Yeah. So, you know, always want to ask, you know, what their preference is.

But I do think that being able to relate to my patients in that way, my female patients, I think that has had some clinical benefit.

I think. I mean, I think it potentially does. Yes, potentially every single time it does. And it certainly.

If the person, if the patient, the client feels more comfortable than. Absolutely. But I have worked with women and I have a lot of women friends. I get along with women really well, but I also don't.

It has been not a frame switch, but I've had to really root my thinking in, particularly with hormonal stuff. If somebody is in a perimenopause age, is this contributing to mood fluctuations, irritability? Are you in perimenopause?

Tell me about your, you know, your birth history, if you had children. That just isn't the first thing that came to my mind as a clinician. I think we all have strengths and we all have certain lenses that.

Or certain stuff that we bring to the table and then deficits. And that had been a deficit of mine. And so I've had to do a lot of kind of continuing education stuff on that.

Well, and the data with perimenopause is changing. So like my primary care and you.

Are an expert, I come to you.

Looking, oh, yeah, it's definitely an interest, but it's also become more of an interest as I've started to go through those things myself. So living the experience, I think has made it my assessment skills a little bit sharper.

But sometimes your labs are abnormal, sometimes they're not abnormal, sometimes they're fine. But the new data says, hey, the labs, person to person, doesn't matter.

But there are a lot of providers who, especially primary care providers who don't, are not up on that research. So folks are getting referred to outside providers, OB GYNs.

And then we get into the problem of like our siloed system and waiting on referrals, and then people avoid care.

So in thinking about, quote, unquote, women's health.

So now I'm kind of uncomfortable saying that, but based on our conversation, or just a general pregnancy, I mean, we kind of went from, you know, the onset of puberty and that kind of adolescent to perimenopause.

Yeah.

You know, in between there is, you know, pregnancy and not for everybody, but, you know, for. And so mental health can certainly change or can be impacted by pregnancy and vice versa.

Absolutely. And that's another thing that's so individualized.

So many providers with mental health specifically, their old info says, well, no psychiatric meds are safe. What drives me up the wall is that all of the data that they used in the studies on like is this safe for pregnant women and their offspring.

They were not related to similar populations. So really the studies were not. I can't think of the word right now which is really silly that I'm being recorded and I can't think of the word.

That's exactly what happens when you get record.

You just bluster through.

Yes.

So you know, or like it's associated associated biased. Well I always say to women when, you know, we don't have studies where a person's pregnant and we give them medication and then see what happens to.

The baby or like a double blind study like that would be totally unethical because then you could be potentially putting one of them at harm in either situation.

So the information we have is amalgamate. I mean women who are pregnant and taking medication report things to different databases that collect the information.

A PsychoDelicious Conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such.

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