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The #COVID Conundrum
Episode 823rd July 2020 • Hope Thru Grief • Hope Thru Grief Podcast
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Dealing with grief while leaning into a support network of family and friends to get us through is hard enough. Enter the global pandemic of 2020, #COVID19.  In an instant everything has become new and more difficult. Most of the available support is now done through technology and isolation. Socially distancing ourselves to stay safe is something our minds understand. Our hearts, not so much. 

 

Today Marshall and Steve breakdown the effects that a global pandemic has on those that have or will find themselves in grief during and because of #COVID19. 

 

How has the pandemic affected you and/or your family and loved ones? Do you have questions or maybe a tip to help make it through? We welcome your comments and questions. Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and we might read your response on the next episode!

 

Please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

 

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Website: http://hopethrugrief.com.

Subscribe & Share: https://hope-thru-grief.captivate.fm/listen

Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

 

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

 

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

 

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Transcripts

Marshall Adler:

Hello.

Marshall Adler:

I'd like to thank you so much for listening to our new episode today.

Marshall Adler:

I'd like to invite you all to a very unusual episode, but before I

Marshall Adler:

do so I'd like to introduce my good friend and cohost, Steve Smelski.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you, Marshall.

Steve Smelski:

Hello, everyone.

Steve Smelski:

Welcome to today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Steve Smelski:

Today we've got an interesting show.

Steve Smelski:

We're going to get in a little bit to a topic that we're all

Steve Smelski:

too familiar with right now.

Steve Smelski:

Marshall.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you, Steve.

Marshall Adler:

Steve today's, as you know, today's society is absolutely been changed

Marshall Adler:

and turned upside down due to the COVID-19 epidemic that is

Marshall Adler:

worldwide in scope and horrific in its effect on society in general.

Marshall Adler:

And as we all know on grief in particular.

Marshall Adler:

The COVID-19 pandemic has taken all of us out of our comfort zones in the sense that

Marshall Adler:

we as human beings are social animals.

Marshall Adler:

We have a need to interact with other humans to touch other humans,

Marshall Adler:

to have emotional response to our physical needs, to be hugged and

Marshall Adler:

to love each other physically.

Marshall Adler:

And that obviously has all changed due to the pandemic, which now requires us

Marshall Adler:

to do things that humans generally don't want to do, which is to isolate and to

Marshall Adler:

be wary of contact with other people.

Marshall Adler:

And I think the effect that this has had on society has obviously been clear

Marshall Adler:

to all of us in the year 2020, which has turned everything upside down.

Marshall Adler:

But I also think it's going to have long lasting societal facts,

Marshall Adler:

including how people grieve.

Marshall Adler:

And Steve, I know that as I mentioned many times before you have helped me and Debbie

Marshall Adler:

so much, when we first met at Grief Share, and you sorta gave great life lessons

Marshall Adler:

for all of us who were just starting on the road to grief about what you need

Marshall Adler:

to do, during your journey of grief and,

Marshall Adler:

I'd like to ask you to give us your sage advice that you usually give to

Marshall Adler:

people, dealing with grief and how the COVID-19 pandemic have changed that.

Steve Smelski:

Usually when Shelly and I kick off a new season, we've got people,

Steve Smelski:

a lot of people we've never met before.

Steve Smelski:

It's the first time we've met them.

Steve Smelski:

It's most likely the worst time of their life when they come in.

Steve Smelski:

Most of them have a hard time coming in the door and we'll usually tell our

Steve Smelski:

story what happened to us, and Jordan.

Steve Smelski:

And then we talk about the things that they need to make sure that they don't do.

Steve Smelski:

And the number one thing that we always bring up is don't isolate.

Steve Smelski:

Unfortunately in 2020 with COVID, we're all supposed to isolate.

Steve Smelski:

No hugs, no face to face talking.

Steve Smelski:

You're the only one in your home.

Steve Smelski:

It's completely opposite of that concept.

Steve Smelski:

And the whole thing is to not isolate yourself in your home and it just, you

Steve Smelski:

just sink further and further, with nobody to help you, nobody to reach out to.

Steve Smelski:

So I guess we need to talk about a way around that because what we

Steve Smelski:

normally say doesn't work right now.

Marshall Adler:

Steve, am I correct that you're actually doing Grief

Marshall Adler:

Share virtually in the sense that you're not even meeting in person for

Marshall Adler:

Grief Share, which is the core of our experience with Grief Share was talking

Marshall Adler:

to other people face to face, hugging other people, being close to them.

Marshall Adler:

And am I correct?

Marshall Adler:

You're not able to do that now?

Steve Smelski:

No, we're not.

Steve Smelski:

We started back in February for the spring season, we made it through five weeks

Steve Smelski:

and then we had to go into isolation.

Steve Smelski:

We'd never had to do that in the last six years.

Steve Smelski:

So we weren't sure how to finish.

Steve Smelski:

But we decided we would try doing a video conference call.

Steve Smelski:

We skipped one week and then went back to everybody and said,

Steve Smelski:

how would you like to join?

Steve Smelski:

We've had probably two thirds of the people say, yes, we want to try it.

Steve Smelski:

And we made it through the end of the program.

Steve Smelski:

And by the time we got to the last couple video sessions, everybody was used to it.

Steve Smelski:

They knew what to expect.

Steve Smelski:

They knew what we're going to cover when they get a chance to talk and

Steve Smelski:

share and the last session, I'm not sure anybody wanted to get off cause they

Steve Smelski:

knew it'd be the last time we'd be on a video call for a couple of months.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting you mentioned that because, I've mentioned

Marshall Adler:

before that, since Matt passed and died by suicide, we've also been

Marshall Adler:

very involved in the suicide survivor community and we have done some zoom

Marshall Adler:

video conferencing with suicide survivors.

Marshall Adler:

And again, it is so different than what we're used to because usually

Marshall Adler:

we're in the same room talking and hugging and having physical contact.

Marshall Adler:

But the ironic thing is, in some ways, the isolation that we've all been going

Marshall Adler:

through has even made Zoom appealing.

Marshall Adler:

Because it's human contact you're not otherwise getting, because at

Marshall Adler:

least you're seeing somebody seeing their expressions, seeing how they're

Marshall Adler:

dealing with their grief on their face and it's better than nothing.

Marshall Adler:

So have you seen a positive response to the isolation that we're getting from the

Marshall Adler:

COVID-19 pandemic that we have to stay safe medically, but has the technology

Marshall Adler:

through the Zoom or whatever conferencing you're doing, been able to at least

Marshall Adler:

help minimize that and to some extent?

Steve Smelski:

I think so.

Steve Smelski:

I think we saw it through the end of the last Grief Share season.

Steve Smelski:

When you first go from in-person to video it's it's not the same.

Steve Smelski:

You're right.

Steve Smelski:

We are social animals.

Steve Smelski:

We like to like to be there.

Steve Smelski:

See the body language, see the emotions, hear the emotions, feel it during grief.

Steve Smelski:

There's an awful lot of emotions.

Steve Smelski:

A lot of us wear it on our sleeve.

Steve Smelski:

Showing up on a video is not the same as being in the same room.

Steve Smelski:

However, after about two or three weeks, I noticed that everybody was

Steve Smelski:

looking forward to the video call.

Steve Smelski:

Because it was the only interaction they were going to have.

Steve Smelski:

Some were working some work most work from home.

Steve Smelski:

And so just getting on video was awesome if you can't meet in person.

Steve Smelski:

Shelly and I went into isolation and we've got a group of friends,

Steve Smelski:

we'll have dinner with occasionally family would get together with.

Steve Smelski:

And after three weeks, we're all going nuts.

Steve Smelski:

Those first three weeks when we all had to isolate at home.

Steve Smelski:

So we got together video calls on a Saturday night.

Steve Smelski:

I think we did it the fourth weekend we're in isolation and then we waited

Steve Smelski:

a couple of weeks and did it once more.

Steve Smelski:

Every, we had a great time.

Steve Smelski:

We played some online games.

Steve Smelski:

I think there are eight or 10 of us, and it was awesome.

Steve Smelski:

After three or four weeks of not talking or seeing anybody to actually

Steve Smelski:

get on video and share it with friends.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting you mentioned that because I, last

Marshall Adler:

night I was watching TV and they had a college professor on and he

Marshall Adler:

was talking about how the college experience is gonna be so different

Marshall Adler:

now because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Marshall Adler:

Many colleges are going totally online.

Marshall Adler:

He specifically talked about Harvard.

Marshall Adler:

Harvard has decided to go online, I think definitely for the fall semester

Marshall Adler:

and maybe for the whole academic year.

Marshall Adler:

And what he said, something very interesting, he says Harvard will be

Marshall Adler:

charging $58,000 the regular tuition for.

Marshall Adler:

This, that he was trying to make a joke saying Netflix charges $120 a year.

Marshall Adler:

Harvard charging $58,000 a year for an online experience and what

Marshall Adler:

his joke was, he wasn't trying to equate Netflix to Harvard.

Marshall Adler:

But what he was saying is that we have to realize this is an opportunity.

Marshall Adler:

Because if we can get, not the same experience, but a comparable experience,

Marshall Adler:

whether it's through education or through grief, helping with grief, helping with

Marshall Adler:

the isolation, the loneliness, using the technology that we have now, it could

Marshall Adler:

be a wonderful thing in a sense that.

Marshall Adler:

His point was college has gotten so expensive that many families

Marshall Adler:

don't have the opportunity to send their children to school.

Marshall Adler:

But with technology now, having the wide range of people that could use

Marshall Adler:

it would hopefully allow more people to experience a college experience.

Marshall Adler:

Not on campus, but virtually, and he thought this would be

Marshall Adler:

a very good thing for society.

Marshall Adler:

So his point was something that is definitely going to change the college

Marshall Adler:

experience might ultimately be good for society by opening up the college

Marshall Adler:

experience to a wider range of people.

Marshall Adler:

Because it's gotten so expensive over the last 40 years, it's been priced out of a

Marshall Adler:

huge segment of the society that we have.

Marshall Adler:

And with grief, Lord knows we all need people in general and

Marshall Adler:

specifically when you're grieving.

Marshall Adler:

As I mentioned before, being Jewish, my whole life, there's

Marshall Adler:

something called Sitting Shivah.

Marshall Adler:

Where, when somebody loses a loved one, the whole Jewish community just

Marshall Adler:

basically takes over the families house.

Marshall Adler:

They bring food, they bring friends, family, to support them where all

Marshall Adler:

the family has to do is really just try to deal with their grief.

Marshall Adler:

And it's really a wonderful community support.

Marshall Adler:

But in this environment with COVID-19, it's an impossibility, it's the

Marshall Adler:

antithesis of social distancing.

Marshall Adler:

It's the antithesis of everything we need to do to keep ourselves physically safe.

Marshall Adler:

But it's obviously having that taken away from us is making us emotionally

Marshall Adler:

unsafe because we're in grief and we're very, very, very susceptible to

Marshall Adler:

emotions that are difficult to deal with.

Marshall Adler:

So what I'm hoping is that perhaps society will be able to use technology to help

Marshall Adler:

fill the gap that the COVID 19 pandemic has taken from our human experience.

Marshall Adler:

Because the last time this probably happened was a hundred years ago with

Marshall Adler:

the 1918 Spanish flu and very few people if anybody would be able to remember

Marshall Adler:

that be and be alive, this has happened a century ago, but I would assume that

Marshall Adler:

they had the same issues, then not being able to grieve the normal manner.

Marshall Adler:

And they didn't have the technology we have now.

Marshall Adler:

So I'm glad to hear that the response that you've had with Grief Share in

Marshall Adler:

a technological advanced method has been able to help people through grief

Marshall Adler:

experience that music is as good to hear.

Steve Smelski:

Yeah.

Steve Smelski:

That's an interesting topic you got to talking about because as students consider

Steve Smelski:

participating in college online, if you take that model and it's becoming normal

Steve Smelski:

for businesses now, because they've relocated employees to their home.

Steve Smelski:

I think you'll see permanent changes going forward.

Steve Smelski:

We've also realized from the grief process, though, when we meet in person,

Steve Smelski:

they have to be close enough to drive.

Steve Smelski:

And I realized I was working on our program for Fall and I reworded all of my

Steve Smelski:

documents because I realized we could have people joining from a different country.

Steve Smelski:

So it's kind of interesting our limitations.

Steve Smelski:

Yes, we can't meet in person.

Steve Smelski:

However, we can meet with people from other countries as part of the process.

Marshall Adler:

Right.

Marshall Adler:

That's interesting because I will tell you personally, through the COVID-19

Marshall Adler:

pandemic, we have used technology to stay in touch with others.

Marshall Adler:

Obviously you can text, you can email, but I like seeing people face to

Marshall Adler:

face and we have been using FaceTime, Zoom, Skype, WebEx, to see people.

Marshall Adler:

And I do think that that has helped us with the grief process.

Marshall Adler:

We recently had the anniversary of Matt's birthday and father's day

Marshall Adler:

mother's day, and as you know, all of these can be tough day to deal

Marshall Adler:

with when you lose a loved one.

Marshall Adler:

And I did find the technology helpful to see somebody.

Marshall Adler:

So, staying in touch physically obviously is the best case

Marshall Adler:

scenario, but it's not an option.

Marshall Adler:

And we almost have to become Darwinian, I think in some ways, because you

Marshall Adler:

know, some people misunderstood what Darwin was talking about, where they

Marshall Adler:

said, Oh, Darwin said survival of the fittest that actually wasn't with Darwin

Marshall Adler:

was saying, he was saying that his survival of those species that adapt.

Marshall Adler:

And humans are now in a position in general and it with grief and

Marshall Adler:

dealing with grief in particular, we're going to have to adapt.

Marshall Adler:

And at least for me personally, dealing with those days, that would be

Marshall Adler:

milestones in the grief process they made me think of my lost son, Matt.

Marshall Adler:

It has been helpful to use the available technology to stay in touch with others.

Steve Smelski:

I would agree with that.

Steve Smelski:

Isolation can make the feeling of grief and loneliness, much more intense.

Steve Smelski:

If you can't see somebody, you can't go meet somebody.

Steve Smelski:

You can't go to lunch with somebody.

Steve Smelski:

Maybe just getting on a video with them is enough for, you feel like

Steve Smelski:

you're not isolated, you got somebody's face right there in your room.

Steve Smelski:

You're able to communicate with them, share with them.

Steve Smelski:

I think he can reduce the loneliness.

Steve Smelski:

So, I would encourage anybody that's isolating right now, that's going through

Steve Smelski:

grief, and anytime you have an intense moment consider doing a FaceTime or

Steve Smelski:

a conference on a PC or a tablet with somebody they know, even if it's just a

Steve Smelski:

friend, if you know somebody who's also lost somebody, you guys could, could

Steve Smelski:

help each other through the process.

Marshall Adler:

Yes, Steve, you were very brave telling us in prior

Marshall Adler:

episodes, what it was like to be at the hospital when Jordan passed.

Marshall Adler:

I'd be interested in your thoughts, if in today's environment, you couldn't be there

Marshall Adler:

physically, but had to be there virtually.

Marshall Adler:

I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.

Steve Smelski:

Well, that's a tough one.

Steve Smelski:

When we took Jordan and he was admitted, we tried to take

Steve Smelski:

turns the first day or so.

Steve Smelski:

And then when he got moved to ICU, we actually didn't leave the hospital.

Steve Smelski:

I've heard stories that, um, in some cases the parents can only go one at a time.

Steve Smelski:

Uh, depending on the severity of the condition.

Steve Smelski:

If it's COVID, they may not be able to be in the room at all.

Steve Smelski:

The patients in isolation.

Steve Smelski:

So it depends on what the affliction is or what the sickness is, whether a

Steve Smelski:

parent or maybe a couple of parents can be with the patient at the same time.

Steve Smelski:

If it's COVID, you're most likely not going to be able to, and they're

Steve Smelski:

not going to be in a condition where you can see them on video.

Steve Smelski:

So that's a great question.

Steve Smelski:

How do you cope with the feeling of helplessness where you can't be there?

Steve Smelski:

You can't hold their hands.

Steve Smelski:

You can't spend time with them.

Steve Smelski:

You can't talk to them in most cases in COVID, if they're in the hospital or

Steve Smelski:

intubated, so they can talk back to you.

Steve Smelski:

It's, it's a lot different than what I would consider, going

Steve Smelski:

through the normal process.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting you mentioned that because your

Marshall Adler:

experience with Jordan is so different than my experience with Matt.

Marshall Adler:

Cause I mentioned previous episodes that Matt passed away

Marshall Adler:

when he was 3000 miles away.

Marshall Adler:

And the last time I physically saw Matt and hugged him was 13 days before

Marshall Adler:

he passed away when he was at the airport, flying back to San Diego

Marshall Adler:

after seeing my mother in hospice.

Marshall Adler:

And I didn't know it at the time, but that was our goodbye.

Marshall Adler:

And although I know people would say, Oh, you were so cheated.

Marshall Adler:

You never got a chance to say goodbye.

Marshall Adler:

I don't feel cheated because, I did say goodbye in the sense

Marshall Adler:

that I told him I loved him.

Marshall Adler:

I told him I was so proud of the life that he had made for himself.

Marshall Adler:

And that's when Matt told me that he realizes now what happens to you

Marshall Adler:

in life, it's how you deal with it.

Marshall Adler:

And that's the greatest thing that a parent would ever want to hear from

Marshall Adler:

a child, so that was my goodbye.

Marshall Adler:

Cause that was the last time I saw him.

Marshall Adler:

And I've been on this planet 64 years and I've been able to learn that the

Marshall Adler:

one certainty in life is uncertainty.

Marshall Adler:

And if anything that we, as a society has learned from the COVID-19 pandemic is that

Marshall Adler:

nobody has tomorrow guaranteed for them.

Marshall Adler:

And you have to look at every single day as a gift.

Marshall Adler:

And so I think COVID has changed the ability of people to be there perhaps at

Marshall Adler:

the hospital when somebody, they loved is passing, but I think the lesson we

Marshall Adler:

all have to learn is don't wait for that.

Marshall Adler:

Don't think you're going to have that in your back pocket that you could pull

Marshall Adler:

out at any time, because you might not.

Marshall Adler:

And you want your loved ones to live as long as possible, but tell

Marshall Adler:

them when you see them that you love them, that you care for them.

Marshall Adler:

Because you don't know.

Marshall Adler:

That might be your goodbye.

Steve Smelski:

That is very true.

Steve Smelski:

I've had a lot of people come up and, and say, you know, we never

Steve Smelski:

got a chance to say goodbye.

Steve Smelski:

Whether it was a vehicle accident, something else, it was very quick.

Steve Smelski:

And, I do share with them that Shelly and I were with Jordan

Steve Smelski:

when he took his last breath.

Steve Smelski:

And I can tell you in those last 10 minutes, we never said goodbye.

Steve Smelski:

We continuously told him how much we loved him.

Steve Smelski:

So if you're feeling cheated because you never got a chance to say goodbye, don't.

Steve Smelski:

Because you would never say that to your loved one.

Steve Smelski:

You'd be telling them how much you love them.

Marshall Adler:

That's really interesting because, because Matt

Marshall Adler:

was 3000 miles away, that wasn't an issue that we ever dealt with.

Marshall Adler:

But hearing you say that really resonates with me.

Marshall Adler:

Cause I think you're right.

Marshall Adler:

I wouldn't say it could buy either.

Marshall Adler:

You just tell them how much you love them.

Marshall Adler:

Which is what I did when the last time I saw Matt and you know, I think

Marshall Adler:

we all see movies and think that, Oh, that's what everybody does and

Marshall Adler:

then you realize it's the movies.

Marshall Adler:

It's not necessarily what people do in life, or what do you want

Marshall Adler:

to do in your life if in fact, you know, that somebody is passing on.

Marshall Adler:

And I think that is something that COVID, again, is making all of us just

Marshall Adler:

look at the whole grief process so differently, and I'm at least enough

Marshall Adler:

of a optimist to realize throughout history, good has come out of bad.

Marshall Adler:

And that's hopefully what as a society, again, in general, and

Marshall Adler:

with grief in particular will result from the COVID-19 pandemic.

Steve Smelski:

I hope you're right.

Steve Smelski:

Let me ask you, do you remember in the early days, first few months,

Steve Smelski:

were you, you weren't yourself, you weren't thinking what you would call

Steve Smelski:

rationally, you would forget things?

Steve Smelski:

It was almost like you're only on 50% capacity.

Steve Smelski:

How would you equate how you felt then versus, cause it's almost like what

Steve Smelski:

we're going through on a daily basis, so if you've lost somebody in your, in the

Steve Smelski:

early stages of grief, how, how would you feel, or what would you say to them?

Marshall Adler:

It's a really good question.

Marshall Adler:

The early stages of grief are so difficult because again, nobody

Marshall Adler:

knows how they're going to react until you're in that position.

Marshall Adler:

You could talk to the cows come home about how you'll deal with

Marshall Adler:

this situation or that situation.

Marshall Adler:

But until the situation of grief is right in front of you,

Marshall Adler:

you don't know how you react.

Marshall Adler:

All I can say is, you know, you made a very good comment in an earlier

Marshall Adler:

episode that you and Shelly after Jordan's passing are different people.

Marshall Adler:

The people that existed before are different than the

Marshall Adler:

people that, that exist now.

Marshall Adler:

And I would agree with that.

Marshall Adler:

I can't sit here and say, Oh, I lost my son.

Marshall Adler:

I lost a child, I'm the same person I was beforehand.

Marshall Adler:

I'm not.

Marshall Adler:

I never will be.

Marshall Adler:

And I think that is the reality that once you're in the early stages of

Marshall Adler:

grief and even continuing through further steps along the journey of

Marshall Adler:

grief, you have to realize that to honor your loved one, who's no longer

Marshall Adler:

with us, they'd want you to survive and thrive at the best level possible.

Marshall Adler:

And to do that, you gotta eat, you gotta drink, you gotta exercise, you

Marshall Adler:

got to get rest, and you sorta have to realize life is for the living.

Marshall Adler:

And as long as we're here, you gotta make the most of it.

Marshall Adler:

Is it going to be the same?

Marshall Adler:

Of course not.

Marshall Adler:

But even with the pandemic we're going through, people are realizing

Marshall Adler:

I have to live a life that is as meaningful and as hopeful and

Marshall Adler:

is hopefully joyful as possible, even during a worldwide pandemic.

Marshall Adler:

So I would just say that if somebody is going through the early stages of grief,

Marshall Adler:

everybody's journey is unique to them and they're going to be dealing with

Marshall Adler:

issues and emotions and thoughts that are different from anything I experienced.

Marshall Adler:

But the universality of it is that we all have to take care of ourselves.

Marshall Adler:

We have to realize again, life is for the living and to do that, you have to take

Marshall Adler:

care of yourself in the best way possible.

Marshall Adler:

Even during a pandemic.

Steve Smelski:

Great point.

Steve Smelski:

One thing I wanted to ask you.

Steve Smelski:

I remember a week or two, after Jordan had passed, we had come out of shock.

Steve Smelski:

We'd gone through a second funeral service.

Steve Smelski:

And I remember like the rest of the world moved on and we were left behind and we're

Steve Smelski:

still, we're 11 and a half year old boy.

Steve Smelski:

And I felt like that was never going to change.

Steve Smelski:

It almost felt like everybody else moved on, the world moved on a

Steve Smelski:

hundred miles an hour and we would never catch up with it again.

Steve Smelski:

Do you think that's the same today with COVID?

Steve Smelski:

Because it doesn't feel that the world is moving as fast

Steve Smelski:

as what we would have before.

Steve Smelski:

Do you think that makes it easier as you start through grief right now?

Marshall Adler:

That's a very good point.

Marshall Adler:

I totally understand and relate to your feeling because you do feel

Marshall Adler:

that way because as I mentioned in the Jewish religion, when you

Marshall Adler:

have the community and friends and loved ones over Sitting Shivah,

Marshall Adler:

it's a wonderful thing, but it ends.

Marshall Adler:

The people that are helping you eventually have to go back to their

Marshall Adler:

homes, to their lives, to their loved ones and live their lives.

Marshall Adler:

Your life is not their life.

Marshall Adler:

Their life is not your life.

Marshall Adler:

So that is going to end and then you feel totally alone and you feel that

Marshall Adler:

the world is going on and without you.

Marshall Adler:

Which is absolutely a legitimate feeling to have.

Marshall Adler:

But for me personally, as I've gone through the grief process, and I

Marshall Adler:

think I actually mentioned this to you during one of the later stages

Marshall Adler:

of our, our Grief Share sessions is.

Marshall Adler:

I really sort of looked at things differently as time went by because you

Marshall Adler:

realize you're not the only one in the history of mankind that is grieving.

Marshall Adler:

In fact, the history of mankind shows that everybody will be grieving.

Marshall Adler:

I've said this before that if you're fortunate enough to live

Marshall Adler:

a long life, you're going to be grieving a lot because you're going

Marshall Adler:

to have people that you love pass.

Marshall Adler:

And if you don't live a long life, people you love, are going to be grieving you.

Marshall Adler:

So grief, is the one guarantee that as a human on this planet, you're going

Marshall Adler:

to experience one way or the other.

Marshall Adler:

Either people grieving you or you're grieving your loved ones.

Marshall Adler:

So, as time went on I realized that I wasn't alone.

Marshall Adler:

Look at human history.

Marshall Adler:

Look at how many people before us have lost loved ones, lost children,

Marshall Adler:

lost spouses, lost siblings, lost parents, and we're not unique.

Marshall Adler:

And in some ways, It just sort of gives you sort of context to realize you

Marshall Adler:

have to be on your own journey, but it is a journey of humanity because

Marshall Adler:

we're all going to be dealing with it.

Marshall Adler:

And I think the COVID-19 pandemic in some ways could have made that more pronounced.

Marshall Adler:

Because people that are losing loved ones now to the COVID-19 pandemic are

Marshall Adler:

realizing this is a worldwide disease that is taking lives in every continent

Marshall Adler:

and every country in, in, on the planet.

Marshall Adler:

Therefore, again, when it happens to you, you feel like you're totally

Marshall Adler:

alone and it's happening to nobody else, but then you realize over time

Marshall Adler:

it is happening to other people.

Marshall Adler:

And your timeline with your lost loved ones happened on the day

Marshall Adler:

they passed and other people just haven't had that timeline hit yet.

Marshall Adler:

It's a horrible thing to say, but we know for a fact, more

Marshall Adler:

people will pass from COVID-19.

Marshall Adler:

It's just the reality of the situation.

Marshall Adler:

So people that are not yet grieving because of this pandemic will be grieving

Marshall Adler:

in the future because of this pandemic.

Marshall Adler:

They just don't know it yet.

Marshall Adler:

So you never want anybody to experience grief, but

Marshall Adler:

intellectually, you know, they will.

Marshall Adler:

So I think to answer your question, I think the COVID-19 pandemic actually

Marshall Adler:

might, in some ways make the sense of uniqueness or loneliness or being

Marshall Adler:

completely out of step with the rest of the world in some ways lessened.

Marshall Adler:

Because you realize how widespread this pandemic is, how many people are losing

Marshall Adler:

loved ones and how many people therefore are joining you on their journey of grief.

Steve Smelski:

I do agree with that because I remember the

Steve Smelski:

first grief class we went into.

Steve Smelski:

I was scared.

Steve Smelski:

I didn't want to go through the door.

Steve Smelski:

Um, Shelly didn't either, we were so raw and grief.

Steve Smelski:

We couldn't even say Jordan's name.

Steve Smelski:

But after you get in there and you realize all those other people are in

Steve Smelski:

there, grieving, trying to get help, you realize I'm not the only one.

Steve Smelski:

And there's actually a little bit of comfort in that, knowing that

Steve Smelski:

you're seeking help in a class that many, many others are seeking help.

Steve Smelski:

So then you realize, okay, it's not just me.

Steve Smelski:

It's not the fact that I can't deal with the, or I can't, figure

Steve Smelski:

out how to deal with it, or I don't know how to deal with it.

Steve Smelski:

Everybody is in the same situation.

Steve Smelski:

That's why they're there.

Steve Smelski:

So there is a little bit of comfort in that.

Steve Smelski:

Let me ask you a question.

Steve Smelski:

A lot of people say the first week or two, we had people there staying

Steve Smelski:

with us, they helped us during COVID.

Steve Smelski:

That's not possible.

Steve Smelski:

We all have to isolate very seldom do you get people that can actually move in and

Steve Smelski:

stay with you in that grieving period?

Steve Smelski:

You can have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you.

Steve Smelski:

You have a lot of people that don't know how they can help you.

Steve Smelski:

You have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you, but they offer up

Steve Smelski:

some help or they say anything I can do to help you, please let me know,

Steve Smelski:

because I don't know what you need.

Steve Smelski:

What would you encourage them to do?

Steve Smelski:

Because now we're in isolation.

Steve Smelski:

In some cases we don't leave the house much, might need to pay

Steve Smelski:

somebody to come do some things.

Steve Smelski:

If somebody wants to offer up help, how would you coach

Steve Smelski:

somebody to respond to that?

Marshall Adler:

That's a really good question, because as you say, all the

Marshall Adler:

time tested rules for wanting to help somebody going through grief have been

Marshall Adler:

turned upside down and thrown out the window because of the COVID-19 medical

Marshall Adler:

requirements to keep us all safe.

Marshall Adler:

I think you almost have to really reinvent your thought process.

Marshall Adler:

I think you have to, I'm not, I won't be glib here, but on father's day,

Marshall Adler:

debbie did something that, again, I'm trying to make a example this,

Marshall Adler:

but, but not a comparison here.

Marshall Adler:

What she did, you know, I grew up in Buffalo, New York and

Marshall Adler:

anybody's ever been to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

They know that Buffalo is the home of Buffalo, chicken wings and

Marshall Adler:

people, Buffalo don't call Buffalo chicken wings, they call them wings.

Marshall Adler:

But everyone else that calls them Buffalo chicken wings, they're delicious.

Marshall Adler:

But there's all these other really good ethnic foods in Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

Pizza, hot dogs.

Marshall Adler:

It's just fantastic.

Marshall Adler:

One thing that for whatever reason, I don't know why other parts

Marshall Adler:

of the country don't have it.

Marshall Adler:

There's frozen custard, which is an ice cream treat, but it's not ice cream.

Marshall Adler:

It's frozen custard.

Marshall Adler:

And people never had it.

Marshall Adler:

They eat it.

Marshall Adler:

They go, Oh my gosh, this is delicious.

Marshall Adler:

So what Debbie did for father's day is, and I'll give a free plug here.

Marshall Adler:

There's a frozen custard business in Buffalo called Anderson's Frozen Custard.

Marshall Adler:

I grew up on it.

Marshall Adler:

It's the most delicious.

Marshall Adler:

You can call it ice cream treat, but it's frozen custard that you'll ever have.

Marshall Adler:

And she was able to get this ship from Buffalo to our house in like 24 hours.

Marshall Adler:

And it was in a container totally frozen in dry ice and the fro

Marshall Adler:

and the custard, you don't eat it like hard packed ice cream.

Marshall Adler:

It's got to sort of get soft, like soft ice cream.

Marshall Adler:

So we let it melt and it was delicious.

Marshall Adler:

And I looked at Debbie, I go, this is a wonderful treat, but also

Marshall Adler:

I commended her on her thought process dealing with this pandemic.

Marshall Adler:

I can't fly up to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

I would go to Buffalo, see a Bill's game.

Marshall Adler:

What I would do, I'd get Anderson's frozen custard every time I go there.

Marshall Adler:

I'm not flying this year to Buffalo.

Marshall Adler:

They might even, even if I did that, you couldn't even go to a Bill's game because

Marshall Adler:

you can't have a NFL game with any fans.

Marshall Adler:

So my point being is Debbie found a different way to help me on father's day.

Marshall Adler:

It sounds silly, but it helped getting Anderson's Frozen Custard on our doorstep.

Marshall Adler:

And so when it comes to grief, I think people that want to help.

Marshall Adler:

And again, I'm not trying to be funny here.

Marshall Adler:

If somebody knows somebody from Buffalo, sending something like

Marshall Adler:

Anderson's Frozen Custard could help.

Marshall Adler:

Why is part of their DNA growing up.

Marshall Adler:

It made me feel good to eat Anderson's Frozen Custard because I felt like I was

Marshall Adler:

eight years old again with my parents.

Marshall Adler:

And I will tell you, I've taken Matt to Anderson's frozen Custard so many

Marshall Adler:

times when we go to Bill's games together, that it made me think fondly

Marshall Adler:

of wonderful times I had with Matt.

Marshall Adler:

So my point being is all the old rules are thrown out the window.

Marshall Adler:

But just come up with new rules.

Marshall Adler:

And for us, Anderson's Frozen Custard would sure do the

Marshall Adler:

trick because we love it.

Marshall Adler:

I'm not saying everybody needs to do that, but there's an example of how to take

Marshall Adler:

where we are as a society and still try to help somebody through the grief process.

Steve Smelski:

By the way, you're making me hungry.

Steve Smelski:

I do love desserts.

Marshall Adler:

Delicious!

Steve Smelski:

That's unique and yet that's really neat at the same time.

Steve Smelski:

I think what I would say is we had so many people offer to help.

Steve Smelski:

They didn't know what we needed, but they would offer and say, if you need anything.

Steve Smelski:

A lot of times we would say, Oh, we're good.

Steve Smelski:

We're fine.

Steve Smelski:

We're doing okay.

Steve Smelski:

Oh, thank you.

Steve Smelski:

We're good.

Steve Smelski:

I would coach somebody now.

Steve Smelski:

To figure out a way, how they can help you.

Steve Smelski:

Once you realize that people are willing to step out of their way to show you that

Steve Smelski:

they care, they realize you're grieving.

Steve Smelski:

You're having a difficult time.

Steve Smelski:

You can't do the normal things.

Steve Smelski:

I mean, we're all suffering with that piece.

Steve Smelski:

So the fact that they're willing to offer it up, I would say, you know what?

Steve Smelski:

That's really nice.

Steve Smelski:

Yeah, I could, um, I could use some of this or if you could drop some of

Steve Smelski:

this by, so I didn't have to go out.

Steve Smelski:

I have a hard time leaving the house, which is absolutely

Steve Smelski:

true, we did for months.

Steve Smelski:

Maybe they'd just drop it by the house for you, if they're out

Steve Smelski:

shopping, they pick it up for you.

Steve Smelski:

So the fact that you got something that's really special and came

Steve Smelski:

from your past, that's awesome.

Steve Smelski:

But don't be afraid to say yes.

Marshall Adler:

I would agree with that.

Marshall Adler:

Again, it's just, I think again, not just with the COVID-19 pandemic, but with

Marshall Adler:

so many things in grief, you're right.

Marshall Adler:

Don't be afraid.

Marshall Adler:

I think people are so afraid to say the wrong thing to make somebody

Marshall Adler:

feel worse than they already do losing a loved one, but just.

Marshall Adler:

Being there trying to help and figure out a way to be the best

Marshall Adler:

human contact you can with somebody going through the grief process.

Marshall Adler:

It's not easy for any of us.

Marshall Adler:

So don't be afraid to do the best you can.

Marshall Adler:

And if something doesn't work it doesn't mean you should stop trying, just keep

Marshall Adler:

on looking for an alternative that does.

Marshall Adler:

I think that applies to grief in general and specifically with

Marshall Adler:

grief in the age of COVID-19.

Steve Smelski:

I would agree with that, absolutely.

Steve Smelski:

The thing to remember right now, as you're grieving, everybody is going

Steve Smelski:

through a loss of something right now.

Steve Smelski:

Globally.

Steve Smelski:

We all are.

Steve Smelski:

I don't think anybody's doing a normal life, maybe New Zealand,

Steve Smelski:

but I think pretty much the rest of the world is, it's not normal.

Steve Smelski:

It's out of sync.

Steve Smelski:

People are missing doing things.

Steve Smelski:

So you're not alone in your suffering.

Steve Smelski:

One of the things I wanted to bring up and it reminded me of

Steve Smelski:

a story that somebody told me.

Steve Smelski:

People can say the most worst comments to you after you've lost your loved one.

Steve Smelski:

And your first response is to blow them out of the water and just go,

Steve Smelski:

how could you ever say that to me?

Steve Smelski:

And I would encourage you to take a different take on it.

Steve Smelski:

Um, I remember people come up and say something in the grocery

Steve Smelski:

store and I look at them and I'm like, is that supposed to help me?

Steve Smelski:

That's like a horrible things to say, but people ask us now.

Steve Smelski:

Well, what should we say?

Steve Smelski:

And it's like, I've been through grief.

Steve Smelski:

I've lost my son and we don't always know the right thing to say, but

Steve Smelski:

a friend of ours was telling us he had lost his daughter, many years

Steve Smelski:

before, and he got onto a plane and he sat down next to this lady.

Steve Smelski:

And somehow the conversation came around to children and he had

Steve Smelski:

gone ahead and shared that his daughter died several years before.

Steve Smelski:

And she put her hand on his arm and she said, Oh, I am so sorry.

Steve Smelski:

I know exactly how you feel.

Steve Smelski:

I lost my cat a couple of weeks ago and I was crushed.

Steve Smelski:

I'd had her for like 17 years.

Steve Smelski:

And I remember him saying, I know what you're going to say.

Steve Smelski:

You're going to say, what'd you, what'd you say back?

Steve Smelski:

And he goes, you know what?

Steve Smelski:

It occurred to me when I saw her expression and how sad her face was.

Steve Smelski:

She actually took an effort to understand the level of my pain.

Steve Smelski:

And she took the thing that was closest that she had just experienced

Steve Smelski:

and she understood, even though she could never touch the level of pain

Steve Smelski:

that I was experiencing, she tried.

Steve Smelski:

And he said I started to get mad and then I realized she actually did it in a very

Steve Smelski:

loving way and tried to put herself in my seat, with the feelings that I had and

Steve Smelski:

I realized, and I said, Oh, thank you.

Steve Smelski:

That's very nice of you.

Steve Smelski:

And I realized she did her best to try to understand where I was at.

Steve Smelski:

And rather than just level on her, I was like, wow, she

Steve Smelski:

tried to understand my pain.

Steve Smelski:

So even though your initial thought is to just say, how could you even say that

Steve Smelski:

to me, try and put yourself in their shoes of not knowing what to say, but

Steve Smelski:

the fact that they took and made the effort to try and compare it to something

Steve Smelski:

that they had to compare it to and try to understand the extent of the pain,

Steve Smelski:

even though they can't, they tried.

Marshall Adler:

It's interesting.

Marshall Adler:

You mentioned that Steve, because it made me think of two things.

Marshall Adler:

My mother always said, be kind to people, even if they're not kind

Marshall Adler:

to you, because you don't know what type of day they're having.

Marshall Adler:

And she mentioned, you don't know if they just lost a loved one and you

Marshall Adler:

don't know what's going on in their head between their ears, which is true.

Marshall Adler:

And there's an old story I'm old enough to remember.

Marshall Adler:

Steve Allen was the comedian who was the first host of the

Marshall Adler:

tonight show people think, Oh, Johnny Carson was the first host.

Marshall Adler:

No, it was Steve Allen, Jack Parr, Johnny Carson, and Jimmy Fallon now.

Marshall Adler:

And Steve Allen told a story that is a little bit of an analogy.

Marshall Adler:

And again, these things they're not comparable, but they're sort

Marshall Adler:

of like a little illustrative here.

Marshall Adler:

He said that he was on the show back then it was shot in New York, it was

Marshall Adler:

like live and there was some incredible act that was on, I forgot what the

Marshall Adler:

act was, and the crowd would just was so appreciative except there was

Marshall Adler:

one guy sitting there not clapping.

Marshall Adler:

And he looked at the guy and he goes, what's wrong with that guy?

Marshall Adler:

He goes, this a credible act everybody's clapping and really giving their

Marshall Adler:

appreciation for this incredible.

Marshall Adler:

And Steve Allen said, it's sort of ticked him off, like, what's wrong with this guy?

Marshall Adler:

Why isn't he clapping for this?

Marshall Adler:

And, you know, comedians can go out in the audience and say

Marshall Adler:

funny things that sometimes are funny, but also sort of hurtful.

Marshall Adler:

So Steve Allen goes, I'm gonna show this guy.

Marshall Adler:

Again, this is live TV.

Marshall Adler:

He goes.

Marshall Adler:

He was going to go up to the audience before the commercial break and talk

Marshall Adler:

to this guy and, you know, and say, Hey, do you like this great act?

Marshall Adler:

And you know, the guy was gonna say, yeah.

Marshall Adler:

And then he was going to say, well, what's wrong with you?

Marshall Adler:

Don't you have any hands?

Marshall Adler:

Why wasn't clapping?

Marshall Adler:

And he said, right before he saw that he saw the guy had no

Marshall Adler:

hands, he was a double amputee.

Marshall Adler:

And he said, thank God I bit my tongue and didn't say that.

Marshall Adler:

Because obviously it would have been unbelievably hurtful and a horrible

Marshall Adler:

thing to say on national live TV.

Marshall Adler:

The point being is you don't know what people are going through.

Marshall Adler:

And what Steve Allen thought was an insult.

Marshall Adler:

And you're trying to make fun of it.

Marshall Adler:

It literally was because this man had no hands, he was a double amputee.

Marshall Adler:

And I think with grief, you have to do the same thought process in a sense that you

Marshall Adler:

don't know what people are thinking and it's hard for them sometimes too correctly

Marshall Adler:

put their thoughts together in a way that would be appropriate in the difficult

Marshall Adler:

situation, trying to console somebody.

Marshall Adler:

So I think what you said was a great story by giving people a break,

Marshall Adler:

they're doing the best they can.

Marshall Adler:

And I think what's my mother, my mother said about, you don't know what

Marshall Adler:

somebody's going through and Steve Allen realizing why was I even thinking

Marshall Adler:

about saying something like this?

Marshall Adler:

When I should have realized maybe he doesn't have hands.

Marshall Adler:

I think having people doing the best they can to help somebody through the grief

Marshall Adler:

grief process is a exercise and tolerance.

Marshall Adler:

And Lord knows we all need that in today's world with the pandemic and everything

Marshall Adler:

else that has happened in the world.

Marshall Adler:

So I think it's a very good point.

Marshall Adler:

You brought up.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you.

Steve Smelski:

There was a couple other things I wanted to touch on.

Steve Smelski:

Right now with everybody in isolation some people are agreeing by themselves.

Steve Smelski:

Some people are grieving with others in the home.

Steve Smelski:

I would say, please remember everyone grieves differently.

Steve Smelski:

If you're grieving with somebody you're both not going to be on

Steve Smelski:

the same page in your grief.

Steve Smelski:

So you just want to make sure you extend a little bit of courtesy to

Steve Smelski:

each other, because you're not going to be at the same spot at the same time.

Steve Smelski:

So I just wanted to bring that out.

Steve Smelski:

That happens all the time.

Steve Smelski:

If you're alone, I would suggest trying to reach out to somebody, somebody

Steve Smelski:

that, you know, Even if it's just a neighbor or a friend, and we mentioned

Steve Smelski:

video calls, sometimes it's nice just to see another face when you're in

Steve Smelski:

isolation, but, um, just remember everybody has their own journey of grief.

Steve Smelski:

Nobody's going to understand what you're at all the time.

Marshall Adler:

That's absolutely true.

Marshall Adler:

I will tell you that Debbie and I are on different journeys.

Marshall Adler:

As a mother, she sees it differently than I do as a father.

Marshall Adler:

And we've learned to give each other wide birth in the sense of, again,

Marshall Adler:

being tolerant of each other's journey.

Marshall Adler:

Because it's not right.

Marshall Adler:

It's not wrong.

Marshall Adler:

It's just your journey.

Marshall Adler:

And I think your journey is going to be unique to you.

Marshall Adler:

But you have to have tolerance for all their other people and other journeys.

Marshall Adler:

I think it's very, very good point.

Marshall Adler:

Steve.

Marshall Adler:

One thing I think that I like to mention is the fact that Matt passed by suicide

Marshall Adler:

is obviously something that is going to be with me the rest of my life,

Marshall Adler:

because I'm very involved in the suicide prevention suicide survivor community.

Marshall Adler:

And my fear is that the COVID-19 pandemic could have a very negative effect on

Marshall Adler:

the suicide rates throughout the world.

Marshall Adler:

And again, it's to be determined what the longterm effects of this

Marshall Adler:

pandemic will be, but I've heard many medical and mental health experts very

Marshall Adler:

concerned about the issue of suicides and somebody that obviously is dealing

Marshall Adler:

with grief, is experiencing emotions that they probably never felt before.

Marshall Adler:

And you add in the societal changes from the pandemic, it could be a difficult

Marshall Adler:

situation where the issue of suicide might be something that has to be dealt with.

Marshall Adler:

And I always tell anybody that I'm ever in contact with to contact a medical,

Marshall Adler:

mental health professional immediately, if there's ever issues of suicidal

Marshall Adler:

ideation or suicide, suicidal thoughts.

Marshall Adler:

There is a national suicide prevention hotline calling 911 can also be

Marshall Adler:

an option for people that are in a situation where they think that

Marshall Adler:

either themselves or somebody else's in a life threatening situation.

Marshall Adler:

So, I think as part of the COVID-19 effect on the grief process in

Marshall Adler:

particular society in general is we all have to be more cognizant of things

Marshall Adler:

like suicide that we weren't before.

Marshall Adler:

And I think it's important for everybody to realize there are people and programs

Marshall Adler:

that you can and should reach out to if you or somebody else is in need of

Marshall Adler:

medical, mental health treatment due to a potentially life threatening situation.

Steve Smelski:

Great point.

Steve Smelski:

Marshall, thank you for calling that out.

Steve Smelski:

I know we've talked about a future episode.

Marshall Adler:

Yes.

Marshall Adler:

Steve, I think it would be very helpful for our listening audience

Marshall Adler:

to tune into our future episode on suicide because obviously my journey

Marshall Adler:

of grief has been profoundly affected by the fact that Matt died by suicide.

Marshall Adler:

And I've talked to many, many, many people that lost loved ones from suicide and the

Marshall Adler:

grief journey they're on is different than other peoples journeys that lost loved

Marshall Adler:

ones from reasons other than suicide.

Marshall Adler:

So, I invite our listening audience to please listen in to our future

Marshall Adler:

episode on suicide, because I think it'll be very illustrative as to the

Marshall Adler:

specifics of dealing with the loss of a love and a suicide, but also

Marshall Adler:

generally with the grief process.

Marshall Adler:

Because again, everybody's journey is unique, but there are common principles

Marshall Adler:

that we all can use to survive and thrive through the grief process as

Marshall Adler:

our loved ones would want us to do, because again, life is for the living.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you for sharing that Marshall.

Steve Smelski:

That'll be one of our up and coming episodes.

Steve Smelski:

Um, we realized when we got together for this episode of COVID, that the suicide

Steve Smelski:

was we'd have to come right after that and, and cover the topic of suicide.

Steve Smelski:

As we wrap up this issue today, I also wanted to mention that, um, a

Steve Smelski:

lot of the health care professionals are doing counseling online now.

Steve Smelski:

If you're struggling at home, you're in isolation, haven't been going

Steve Smelski:

out it's okay because a lot of the doctor's visits now, or either online,

Steve Smelski:

via video or just a, a phone call.

Steve Smelski:

So there's also options for counseling today, online, as well as a grief program.

Steve Smelski:

There's plenty of those available as well.

Steve Smelski:

So we just want to make sure that everybody has all the information that

Steve Smelski:

they need to help them on their journey.

Steve Smelski:

And so I want to say thank you for joining us today.

Steve Smelski:

I know through grief and Marshall, thanks for helping us out.

Marshall Adler:

Steve.

Marshall Adler:

Thanks so much for again, your great insight and your great guidance to me in

Marshall Adler:

particular and to our audience in general.

Marshall Adler:

And I look forward to talking to you everybody next week.

Steve Smelski:

Thanks everybody.

Marshall Adler:

Stay well.

Marshall Adler:

Thank you.

Steve Smelski:

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

Steve Smelski:

cohost Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

Steve Smelski:

We hope

Marshall Adler:

our episode today was helpful and informative.

Marshall Adler:

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

Marshall Adler:

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Marshall Adler:

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

Marshall Adler:

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

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