Dealing with grief while leaning into a support network of family and friends to get us through is hard enough. Enter the global pandemic of 2020, #COVID19.  In an instant everything has become new and more difficult. Most of the available support is now done through technology and isolation. Socially distancing ourselves to stay safe is something our minds understand. Our hearts, not so much. 

Today Marshall and Steve breakdown the effects that a global pandemic has on those that have or will find themselves in grief during and because of #COVID19. 

How has the pandemic affected you and/or your family and loved ones? Do you have questions or maybe a tip to help make it through? We welcome your comments and questions. Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and we might read your response on the next episode!

Please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

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Website: http://hopethrugrief.com.

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Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Hello.

I'd like to thank you so much for listening to our new episode today.

I'd like to invite you all to a very unusual episode, but before I

do so I'd like to introduce my good friend and cohost, Steve Smelski.

Thank you, Marshall.

Hello, everyone.

Welcome to today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Today we've got an interesting show.

We're going to get in a little bit to a topic that we're all

too familiar with right now.

Marshall.

Thank you, Steve.

Steve today's, as you know, today's society is absolutely been changed

and turned upside down due to the COVID-19 epidemic that is

worldwide in scope and horrific in its effect on society in general.

And as we all know on grief in particular.

The COVID-19 pandemic has taken all of us out of our comfort zones in the sense that

we as human beings are social animals.

We have a need to interact with other humans to touch other humans,

to have emotional response to our physical needs, to be hugged and

to love each other physically.

And that obviously has all changed due to the pandemic, which now requires us

to do things that humans generally don't want to do, which is to isolate and to

be wary of contact with other people.

And I think the effect that this has had on society has obviously been clear

to all of us in the year 2020, which has turned everything upside down.

But I also think it's going to have long lasting societal facts,

including how people grieve.

And Steve, I know that as I mentioned many times before you have helped me and Debbie

so much, when we first met at Grief Share, and you sorta gave great life lessons

for all of us who were just starting on the road to grief about what you need

to do, during your journey of grief and,

I'd like to ask you to give us your sage advice that you usually give to

people, dealing with grief and how the COVID-19 pandemic have changed that.

Usually when Shelly and I kick off a new season, we've got people,

a lot of people we've never met before.

It's the first time we've met them.

It's most likely the worst time of their life when they come in.

Most of them have a hard time coming in the door and we'll usually tell our

story what happened to us, and Jordan.

And then we talk about the things that they need to make sure that they don't do.

And the number one thing that we always bring up is don't isolate.

Unfortunately in 2020 with COVID, we're all supposed to isolate.

No hugs, no face to face talking.

You're the only one in your home.

It's completely opposite of that concept.

And the whole thing is to not isolate yourself in your home and it just, you

just sink further and further, with nobody to help you, nobody to reach out to.

So I guess we need to talk about a way around that because what we

normally say doesn't work right now.

Steve, am I correct that you're actually doing Grief

Share virtually in the sense that you're not even meeting in person for

Grief Share, which is the core of our experience with Grief Share was talking

to other people face to face, hugging other people, being close to them.

And am I correct?

You're not able to do that now?

No, we're not.

We started back in February for the spring season, we made it through five weeks

and then we had to go into isolation.

We'd never had to do that in the last six years.

So we weren't sure how to finish.

But we decided we would try doing a video conference call.

We skipped one week and then went back to everybody and said,

how would you like to join?

We've had probably two thirds of the people say, yes, we want to try it.

And we made it through the end of the program.

And by the time we got to the last couple video sessions, everybody was used to it.

They knew what to expect.

They knew what we're going to cover when they get a chance to talk and

share and the last session, I'm not sure anybody wanted to get off cause they

knew it'd be the last time we'd be on a video call for a couple of months.

It's interesting you mentioned that because, I've mentioned

before that, since Matt passed and died by suicide, we've also been

very involved in the suicide survivor community and we have done some zoom

video conferencing with suicide survivors.

And again, it is so different than what we're used to because usually

we're in the same room talking and hugging and having physical contact.

But the ironic thing is, in some ways, the isolation that we've all been going

through has even made Zoom appealing.

Because it's human contact you're not otherwise getting, because at

least you're seeing somebody seeing their expressions, seeing how they're

dealing with their grief on their face and it's better than nothing.

So have you seen a positive response to the isolation that we're getting from the

COVID-19 pandemic that we have to stay safe medically, but has the technology

through the Zoom or whatever conferencing you're doing, been able to at least

help minimize that and to some extent?

I think so.

I think we saw it through the end of the last Grief Share season.

When you first go from in-person to video it's it's not the same.

You're right.

We are social animals.

We like to like to be there.

See the body language, see the emotions, hear the emotions, feel it during grief.

There's an awful lot of emotions.

A lot of us wear it on our sleeve.

Showing up on a video is not the same as being in the same room.

However, after about two or three weeks, I noticed that everybody was

looking forward to the video call.

Because it was the only interaction they were going to have.

Some were working some work most work from home.

And so just getting on video was awesome if you can't meet in person.

Shelly and I went into isolation and we've got a group of friends,

we'll have dinner with occasionally family would get together with.

And after three weeks, we're all going nuts.

Those first three weeks when we all had to isolate at home.

So we got together video calls on a Saturday night.

I think we did it the fourth weekend we're in isolation and then we waited

a couple of weeks and did it once more.

Every, we had a great time.

We played some online games.

I think there are eight or 10 of us, and it was awesome.

After three or four weeks of not talking or seeing anybody to actually

get on video and share it with friends.

It's interesting you mentioned that because I, last

night I was watching TV and they had a college professor on and he

was talking about how the college experience is gonna be so different

now because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Many colleges are going totally online.

He specifically talked about Harvard.

Harvard has decided to go online, I think definitely for the fall semester

and maybe for the whole academic year.

And what he said, something very interesting, he says Harvard will be

charging $58,000 the regular tuition for.

This, that he was trying to make a joke saying Netflix charges $120 a year.

Harvard charging $58,000 a year for an online experience and what

his joke was, he wasn't trying to equate Netflix to Harvard.

But what he was saying is that we have to realize this is an opportunity.

Because if we can get, not the same experience, but a comparable experience,

whether it's through education or through grief, helping with grief, helping with

the isolation, the loneliness, using the technology that we have now, it could

be a wonderful thing in a sense that.

His point was college has gotten so expensive that many families

don't have the opportunity to send their children to school.

But with technology now, having the wide range of people that could use

it would hopefully allow more people to experience a college experience.

Not on campus, but virtually, and he thought this would be

a very good thing for society.

So his point was something that is definitely going to change the college

experience might ultimately be good for society by opening up the college

experience to a wider range of people.

Because it's gotten so expensive over the last 40 years, it's been priced out of a

huge segment of the society that we have.

And with grief, Lord knows we all need people in general and

specifically when you're grieving.

As I mentioned before, being Jewish, my whole life, there's

something called Sitting Shivah.

Where, when somebody loses a loved one, the whole Jewish community just

basically takes over the families house.

They bring food, they bring friends, family, to support them where all

the family has to do is really just try to deal with their grief.

And it's really a wonderful community support.

But in this environment with COVID-19, it's an impossibility, it's the

antithesis of social distancing.

It's the antithesis of everything we need to do to keep ourselves physically safe.

But it's obviously having that taken away from us is making us emotionally

unsafe because we're in grief and we're very, very, very susceptible to

emotions that are difficult to deal with.

So what I'm hoping is that perhaps society will be able to use technology to help

fill the gap that the COVID 19 pandemic has taken from our human experience.

Because the last time this probably happened was a hundred years ago with

the 1918 Spanish flu and very few people if anybody would be able to remember

that be and be alive, this has happened a century ago, but I would assume that

they had the same issues, then not being able to grieve the normal manner.

And they didn't have the technology we have now.

So I'm glad to hear that the response that you've had with Grief Share in

a technological advanced method has been able to help people through grief

experience that music is as good to hear.

Yeah.

That's an interesting topic you got to talking about because as students consider

participating in college online, if you take that model and it's becoming normal

for businesses now, because they've relocated employees to their home.

I think you'll see permanent changes going forward.

We've also realized from the grief process, though, when we meet in person,

they have to be close enough to drive.

And I realized I was working on our program for Fall and I reworded all of my

documents because I realized we could have people joining from a different country.

So it's kind of interesting our limitations.

Yes, we can't meet in person.

However, we can meet with people from other countries as part of the process.

Right.

That's interesting because I will tell you personally, through the COVID-19

pandemic, we have used technology to stay in touch with others.

Obviously you can text, you can email, but I like seeing people face to

face and we have been using FaceTime, Zoom, Skype, WebEx, to see people.

And I do think that that has helped us with the grief process.

We recently had the anniversary of Matt's birthday and father's day

mother's day, and as you know, all of these can be tough day to deal

with when you lose a loved one.

And I did find the technology helpful to see somebody.

So, staying in touch physically obviously is the best case

scenario, but it's not an option.

And we almost have to become Darwinian, I think in some ways, because you

know, some people misunderstood what Darwin was talking about, where they

said, Oh, Darwin said survival of the fittest that actually wasn't with Darwin

was saying, he was saying that his survival of those species that adapt.

And humans are now in a position in general and it with grief and

dealing with grief in particular, we're going to have to adapt.

And at least for me personally, dealing with those days, that would be

milestones in the grief process they made me think of my lost son, Matt.

It has been helpful to use the available technology to stay in touch with others.

I would agree with that.

Isolation can make the feeling of grief and loneliness, much more intense.

If you can't see somebody, you can't go meet somebody.

You can't go to lunch with somebody.

Maybe just getting on a video with them is enough for, you feel like

you're not isolated, you got somebody's face right there in your room.

You're able to communicate with them, share with them.

I think he can reduce the loneliness.

So, I would encourage anybody that's isolating right now, that's going through

grief, and anytime you have an intense moment consider doing a FaceTime or

a conference on a PC or a tablet with somebody they know, even if it's just a

friend, if you know somebody who's also lost somebody, you guys could, could

help each other through the process.

Yes, Steve, you were very brave telling us in prior

episodes, what it was like to be at the hospital when Jordan passed.

I'd be interested in your thoughts, if in today's environment, you couldn't be there

physically, but had to be there virtually.

I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.

Well, that's a tough one.

When we took Jordan and he was admitted, we tried to take

turns the first day or so.

And then when he got moved to ICU, we actually didn't leave the hospital.

I've heard stories that, um, in some cases the parents can only go one at a time.

Uh, depending on the severity of the condition.

If it's COVID, they may not be able to be in the room at all.

The patients in isolation.

So it depends on what the affliction is or what the sickness is, whether a

parent or maybe a couple of parents can be with the patient at the same time.

If it's COVID, you're most likely not going to be able to, and they're

not going to be in a condition where you can see them on video.

So that's a great question.

How do you cope with the feeling of helplessness where you can't be there?

You can't hold their hands.

You can't spend time with them.

You can't talk to them in most cases in COVID, if they're in the hospital or

intubated, so they can talk back to you.

It's, it's a lot different than what I would consider, going

through the normal process.

It's interesting you mentioned that because your

experience with Jordan is so different than my experience with Matt.

Cause I mentioned previous episodes that Matt passed away

when he was 3000 miles away.

And the last time I physically saw Matt and hugged him was 13 days before

he passed away when he was at the airport, flying back to San Diego

after seeing my mother in hospice.

And I didn't know it at the time, but that was our goodbye.

And although I know people would say, Oh, you were so cheated.

You never got a chance to say goodbye.

I don't feel cheated because, I did say goodbye in the sense

that I told him I loved him.

I told him I was so proud of the life that he had made for himself.

And that's when Matt told me that he realizes now what happens to you

in life, it's how you deal with it.

And that's the greatest thing that a parent would ever want to hear from

a child, so that was my goodbye.

Cause that was the last time I saw him.

And I've been on this planet 64 years and I've been able to learn that the

one certainty in life is uncertainty.

And if anything that we, as a society has learned from the COVID-19 pandemic is that

nobody has tomorrow guaranteed for them.

And you have to look at every single day as a gift.

And so I think COVID has changed the ability of people to be there perhaps at

the hospital when somebody, they loved is passing, but I think the lesson we

all have to learn is don't wait for that.

Don't think you're going to have that in your back pocket that you could pull

out at any time, because you might not.

And you want your loved ones to live as long as possible, but tell

them when you see them that you love them, that you care for them.

Because you don't know.

That might be your goodbye.

That is very true.

I've had a lot of people come up and, and say, you know, we never

got a chance to say goodbye.

Whether it was a vehicle accident, something else, it was very quick.

And, I do share with them that Shelly and I were with Jordan

when he took his last breath.

And I can tell you in those last 10 minutes, we never said goodbye.

We continuously told him how much we loved him.

So if you're feeling cheated because you never got a chance to say goodbye, don't.

Because you would never say that to your loved one.

You'd be telling them how much you love them.

That's really interesting because, because Matt

was 3000 miles away, that wasn't an issue that we ever dealt with.

But hearing you say that really resonates with me.

Cause I think you're right.

I wouldn't say it could buy either.

You just tell them how much you love them.

Which is what I did when the last time I saw Matt and you know, I think

we all see movies and think that, Oh, that's what everybody does and

then you realize it's the movies.

It's not necessarily what people do in life, or what do you want

to do in your life if in fact, you know, that somebody is passing on.

And I think that is something that COVID, again, is making all of us just

look at the whole grief process so differently, and I'm at least enough

of a optimist to realize throughout history, good has come out of bad.

And that's hopefully what as a society, again, in general, and

with grief in particular will result from the COVID-19 pandemic.

I hope you're right.

Let me ask you, do you remember in the early days, first few months,

were you, you weren't yourself, you weren't thinking what you would call

rationally, you would forget things?

It was almost like you're only on 50% capacity.

How would you equate how you felt then versus, cause it's almost like what

we're going through on a daily basis, so if you've lost somebody in your, in the

early stages of grief, how, how would you feel, or what would you say to them?

It's a really good question.

The early stages of grief are so difficult because again, nobody

knows how they're going to react until you're in that position.

You could talk to the cows come home about how you'll deal with

this situation or that situation.

But until the situation of grief is right in front of you,

you don't know how you react.

All I can say is, you know, you made a very good comment in an earlier

episode that you and Shelly after Jordan's passing are different people.

The people that existed before are different than the

people that, that exist now.

And I would agree with that.

I can't sit here and say, Oh, I lost my son.

I lost a child, I'm the same person I was beforehand.

I'm not.

I never will be.

And I think that is the reality that once you're in the early stages of

grief and even continuing through further steps along the journey of

grief, you have to realize that to honor your loved one, who's no longer

with us, they'd want you to survive and thrive at the best level possible.

And to do that, you gotta eat, you gotta drink, you gotta exercise, you

got to get rest, and you sorta have to realize life is for the living.

And as long as we're here, you gotta make the most of it.

Is it going to be the same?

Of course not.

But even with the pandemic we're going through, people are realizing

I have to live a life that is as meaningful and as hopeful and

is hopefully joyful as possible, even during a worldwide pandemic.

So I would just say that if somebody is going through the early stages of grief,

everybody's journey is unique to them and they're going to be dealing with

issues and emotions and thoughts that are different from anything I experienced.

But the universality of it is that we all have to take care of ourselves.

We have to realize again, life is for the living and to do that, you have to take

care of yourself in the best way possible.

Even during a pandemic.

Great point.

One thing I wanted to ask you.

I remember a week or two, after Jordan had passed, we had come out of shock.

We'd gone through a second funeral service.

And I remember like the rest of the world moved on and we were left behind and we're

still, we're 11 and a half year old boy.

And I felt like that was never going to change.

It almost felt like everybody else moved on, the world moved on a

hundred miles an hour and we would never catch up with it again.

Do you think that's the same today with COVID?

Because it doesn't feel that the world is moving as fast

as what we would have before.

Do you think that makes it easier as you start through grief right now?

That's a very good point.

I totally understand and relate to your feeling because you do feel

that way because as I mentioned in the Jewish religion, when you

have the community and friends and loved ones over Sitting Shivah,

it's a wonderful thing, but it ends.

The people that are helping you eventually have to go back to their

homes, to their lives, to their loved ones and live their lives.

Your life is not their life.

Their life is not your life.

So that is going to end and then you feel totally alone and you feel that

the world is going on and without you.

Which is absolutely a legitimate feeling to have.

But for me personally, as I've gone through the grief process, and I

think I actually mentioned this to you during one of the later stages

of our, our Grief Share sessions is.

I really sort of looked at things differently as time went by because you

realize you're not the only one in the history of mankind that is grieving.

In fact, the history of mankind shows that everybody will be grieving.

I've said this before that if you're fortunate enough to live

a long life, you're going to be grieving a lot because you're going

to have people that you love pass.

And if you don't live a long life, people you love, are going to be grieving you.

So grief, is the one guarantee that as a human on this planet, you're going

to experience one way or the other.

Either people grieving you or you're grieving your loved ones.

So, as time went on I realized that I wasn't alone.

Look at human history.

Look at how many people before us have lost loved ones, lost children,

lost spouses, lost siblings, lost parents, and we're not unique.

And in some ways, It just sort of gives you sort of context to realize you

have to be on your own journey, but it is a journey of humanity because

we're all going to be dealing with it.

And I think the COVID-19 pandemic in some ways could have made that more pronounced.

Because people that are losing loved ones now to the COVID-19 pandemic are

realizing this is a worldwide disease that is taking lives in every continent

and every country in, in, on the planet.

Therefore, again, when it happens to you, you feel like you're totally

alone and it's happening to nobody else, but then you realize over time

it is happening to other people.

And your timeline with your lost loved ones happened on the day

they passed and other people just haven't had that timeline hit yet.

It's a horrible thing to say, but we know for a fact, more

people will pass from COVID-19.

It's just the reality of the situation.

So people that are not yet grieving because of this pandemic will be grieving

in the future because of this pandemic.

They just don't know it yet.

So you never want anybody to experience grief, but

intellectually, you know, they will.

So I think to answer your question, I think the COVID-19 pandemic actually

might, in some ways make the sense of uniqueness or loneliness or being

completely out of step with the rest of the world in some ways lessened.

Because you realize how widespread this pandemic is, how many people are losing

loved ones and how many people therefore are joining you on their journey of grief.

I do agree with that because I remember the

first grief class we went into.

I was scared.

I didn't want to go through the door.

Um, Shelly didn't either, we were so raw and grief.

We couldn't even say Jordan's name.

But after you get in there and you realize all those other people are in

there, grieving, trying to get help, you realize I'm not the only one.

And there's actually a little bit of comfort in that, knowing that

you're seeking help in a class that many, many others are seeking help.

So then you realize, okay, it's not just me.

It's not the fact that I can't deal with the, or I can't, figure

out how to deal with it, or I don't know how to deal with it.

Everybody is in the same situation.

That's why they're there.

So there is a little bit of comfort in that.

Let me ask you a question.

A lot of people say the first week or two, we had people there staying

with us, they helped us during COVID.

That's not possible.

We all have to isolate very seldom do you get people that can actually move in and

stay with you in that grieving period?

You can have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you.

You have a lot of people that don't know how they can help you.

You have a lot of people that don't know what to say to you, but they offer up

some help or they say anything I can do to help you, please let me know,

because I don't know what you need.

What would you encourage them to do?

Because now we're in isolation.

In some cases we don't leave the house much, might need to pay

somebody to come do some things.

If somebody wants to offer up help, how would you coach

somebody to respond to that?

That's a really good question, because as you say, all the

time tested rules for wanting to help somebody going through grief have been

turned upside down and thrown out the window because of the COVID-19 medical

requirements to keep us all safe.

I think you almost have to really reinvent your thought process.

I think you have to, I'm not, I won't be glib here, but on father's day,

debbie did something that, again, I'm trying to make a example this,

but, but not a comparison here.

What she did, you know, I grew up in Buffalo, New York and

anybody's ever been to Buffalo.

They know that Buffalo is the home of Buffalo, chicken wings and

people, Buffalo don't call Buffalo chicken wings, they call them wings.

But everyone else that calls them Buffalo chicken wings, they're delicious.

But there's all these other really good ethnic foods in Buffalo.

Pizza, hot dogs.

It's just fantastic.

One thing that for whatever reason, I don't know why other parts

of the country don't have it.

There's frozen custard, which is an ice cream treat, but it's not ice cream.

It's frozen custard.

And people never had it.

They eat it.

They go, Oh my gosh, this is delicious.

So what Debbie did for father's day is, and I'll give a free plug here.

There's a frozen custard business in Buffalo called Anderson's Frozen Custard.

I grew up on it.

It's the most delicious.

You can call it ice cream treat, but it's frozen custard that you'll ever have.

And she was able to get this ship from Buffalo to our house in like 24 hours.

And it was in a container totally frozen in dry ice and the fro

and the custard, you don't eat it like hard packed ice cream.

It's got to sort of get soft, like soft ice cream.

So we let it melt and it was delicious.

And I looked at Debbie, I go, this is a wonderful treat, but also

I commended her on her thought process dealing with this pandemic.

I can't fly up to Buffalo.

I would go to Buffalo, see a Bill's game.

What I would do, I'd get Anderson's frozen custard every time I go there.

I'm not flying this year to Buffalo.

They might even, even if I did that, you couldn't even go to a Bill's game because

you can't have a NFL game with any fans.

So my point being is Debbie found a different way to help me on father's day.

It sounds silly, but it helped getting Anderson's Frozen Custard on our doorstep.

And so when it comes to grief, I think people that want to help.

And again, I'm not trying to be funny here.

If somebody knows somebody from Buffalo, sending something like

Anderson's Frozen Custard could help.

Why is part of their DNA growing up.

It made me feel good to eat Anderson's Frozen Custard because I felt like I was

eight years old again with my parents.

And I will tell you, I've taken Matt to Anderson's frozen Custard so many

times when we go to Bill's games together, that it made me think fondly

of wonderful times I had with Matt.

So my point being is all the old rules are thrown out the window.

But just come up with new rules.

And for us, Anderson's Frozen Custard would sure do the

trick because we love it.

I'm not saying everybody needs to do that, but there's an example of how to take

where we are as a society and still try to help somebody through the grief process.

By the way, you're making me hungry.

I do love desserts.

Delicious!

That's unique and yet that's really neat at the same time.

I think what I would say is we had so many people offer to help.

They didn't know what we needed, but they would offer and say, if you need anything.

A lot of times we would say, Oh, we're good.

We're fine.

We're doing okay.

Oh, thank you.

We're good.

I would coach somebody now.

To figure out a way, how they can help you.

Once you realize that people are willing to step out of their way to show you that

they care, they realize you're grieving.

You're having a difficult time.

You can't do the normal things.

I mean, we're all suffering with that piece.

So the fact that they're willing to offer it up, I would say, you know what?

That's really nice.

Yeah, I could, um, I could use some of this or if you could drop some of

this by, so I didn't have to go out.

I have a hard time leaving the house, which is absolutely

true, we did for months.

Maybe they'd just drop it by the house for you, if they're out

shopping, they pick it up for you.

So the fact that you got something that's really special and came

from your past, that's awesome.

But don't be afraid to say yes.

I would agree with that.

Again, it's just, I think again, not just with the COVID-19 pandemic, but with

so many things in grief, you're right.

Don't be afraid.

I think people are so afraid to say the wrong thing to make somebody

feel worse than they already do losing a loved one, but just.

Being there trying to help and figure out a way to be the best

human contact you can with somebody going through the grief process.

It's not easy for any of us.

So don't be afraid to do the best you can.

And if something doesn't work it doesn't mean you should stop trying, just keep

on looking for an alternative that does.

I think that applies to grief in general and specifically with

grief in the age of COVID-19.

I would agree with that, absolutely.

The thing to remember right now, as you're grieving, everybody is going

through a loss of something right now.

Globally.

We all are.

I don't think anybody's doing a normal life, maybe New Zealand,

but I think pretty much the rest of the world is, it's not normal.

It's out of sync.

People are missing doing things.

So you're not alone in your suffering.

One of the things I wanted to bring up and it reminded me of

a story that somebody told me.

People can say the most worst comments to you after you've lost your loved one.

And your first response is to blow them out of the water and just go,

how could you ever say that to me?

And I would encourage you to take a different take on it.

Um, I remember people come up and say something in the grocery

store and I look at them and I'm like, is that supposed to help me?

That's like a horrible things to say, but people ask us now.

Well, what should we say?

And it's like, I've been through grief.

I've lost my son and we don't always know the right thing to say, but

a friend of ours was telling us he had lost his daughter, many years

before, and he got onto a plane and he sat down next to this lady.

And somehow the conversation came around to children and he had

gone ahead and shared that his daughter died several years before.

And she put her hand on his arm and she said, Oh, I am so sorry.

I know exactly how you feel.

I lost my cat a couple of weeks ago and I was crushed.

I'd had her for like 17 years.

And I remember him saying, I know what you're going to say.

You're going to say, what'd you, what'd you say back?

And he goes, you know what?

It occurred to me when I saw her expression and how sad her face was.

She actually took an effort to understand the level of my pain.

And she took the thing that was closest that she had just experienced

and she understood, even though she could never touch the level of pain

that I was experiencing, she tried.

And he said I started to get mad and then I realized she actually did it in a very

loving way and tried to put herself in my seat, with the feelings that I had and

I realized, and I said, Oh, thank you.

That's very nice of you.

And I realized she did her best to try to understand where I was at.

And rather than just level on her, I was like, wow, she

tried to understand my pain.

So even though your initial thought is to just say, how could you even say that

to me, try and put yourself in their shoes of not knowing what to say, but

the fact that they took and made the effort to try and compare it to something

that they had to compare it to and try to understand the extent of the pain,

even though they can't, they tried.

It's interesting.

You mentioned that Steve, because it made me think of two things.

My mother always said, be kind to people, even if they're not kind

to you, because you don't know what type of day they're having.

And she mentioned, you don't know if they just lost a loved one and you

don't know what's going on in their head between their ears, which is true.

And there's an old story I'm old enough to remember.

Steve Allen was the comedian who was the first host of the

tonight show people think, Oh, Johnny Carson was the first host.

No, it was Steve Allen, Jack Parr, Johnny Carson, and Jimmy Fallon now.

And Steve Allen told a story that is a little bit of an analogy.

And again, these things they're not comparable, but they're sort

of like a little illustrative here.

He said that he was on the show back then it was shot in New York, it was

like live and there was some incredible act that was on, I forgot what the

act was, and the crowd would just was so appreciative except there was

one guy sitting there not clapping.

And he looked at the guy and he goes, what's wrong with that guy?

He goes, this a credible act everybody's clapping and really giving their

appreciation for this incredible.

And Steve Allen said, it's sort of ticked him off, like, what's wrong with this guy?

Why isn't he clapping for this?

And, you know, comedians can go out in the audience and say

funny things that sometimes are funny, but also sort of hurtful.

So Steve Allen goes, I'm gonna show this guy.

Again, this is live TV.

He goes.

He was going to go up to the audience before the commercial break and talk

to this guy and, you know, and say, Hey, do you like this great act?

And you know, the guy was gonna say, yeah.

And then he was going to say, well, what's wrong with you?

Don't you have any hands?

Why wasn't clapping?

And he said, right before he saw that he saw the guy had no

hands, he was a double amputee.

And he said, thank God I bit my tongue and didn't say that.

Because obviously it would have been unbelievably hurtful and a horrible

thing to say on national live TV.

The point being is you don't know what people are going through.

And what Steve Allen thought was an insult.

And you're trying to make fun of it.

It literally was because this man had no hands, he was a double amputee.

And I think with grief, you have to do the same thought process in a sense that you

don't know what people are thinking and it's hard for them sometimes too correctly

put their thoughts together in a way that would be appropriate in the difficult

situation, trying to console somebody.

So I think what you said was a great story by giving people a break,

they're doing the best they can.

And I think what's my mother, my mother said about, you don't know what

somebody's going through and Steve Allen realizing why was I even thinking

about saying something like this?

When I should have realized maybe he doesn't have hands.

I think having people doing the best they can to help somebody through the grief

grief process is a exercise and tolerance.

And Lord knows we all need that in today's world with the pandemic and everything

else that has happened in the world.

So I think it's a very good point.

You brought up.

Thank you.

There was a couple other things I wanted to touch on.

Right now with everybody in isolation some people are agreeing by themselves.

Some people are grieving with others in the home.

I would say, please remember everyone grieves differently.

If you're grieving with somebody you're both not going to be on

the same page in your grief.

So you just want to make sure you extend a little bit of courtesy to

each other, because you're not going to be at the same spot at the same time.

So I just wanted to bring that out.

That happens all the time.

If you're alone, I would suggest trying to reach out to somebody, somebody

that, you know, Even if it's just a neighbor or a friend, and we mentioned

video calls, sometimes it's nice just to see another face when you're in

isolation, but, um, just remember everybody has their own journey of grief.

Nobody's going to understand what you're at all the time.

That's absolutely true.

I will tell you that Debbie and I are on different journeys.

As a mother, she sees it differently than I do as a father.

And we've learned to give each other wide birth in the sense of, again,

being tolerant of each other's journey.

Because it's not right.

It's not wrong.

It's just your journey.

And I think your journey is going to be unique to you.

But you have to have tolerance for all their other people and other journeys.

I think it's very, very good point.

Steve.

One thing I think that I like to mention is the fact that Matt passed by suicide

is obviously something that is going to be with me the rest of my life,

because I'm very involved in the suicide prevention suicide survivor community.

And my fear is that the COVID-19 pandemic could have a very negative effect on

the suicide rates throughout the world.

And again, it's to be determined what the longterm effects of this

pandemic will be, but I've heard many medical and mental health experts very

concerned about the issue of suicides and somebody that obviously is dealing

with grief, is experiencing emotions that they probably never felt before.

And you add in the societal changes from the pandemic, it could be a difficult

situation where the issue of suicide might be something that has to be dealt with.

And I always tell anybody that I'm ever in contact with to contact a medical,

mental health professional immediately, if there's ever issues of suicidal

ideation or suicide, suicidal thoughts.

There is a national suicide prevention hotline calling 911 can also be

an option for people that are in a situation where they think that

either themselves or somebody else's in a life threatening situation.

So, I think as part of the COVID-19 effect on the grief process in

particular society in general is we all have to be more cognizant of things

like suicide that we weren't before.

And I think it's important for everybody to realize there are people and programs

that you can and should reach out to if you or somebody else is in need of

medical, mental health treatment due to a potentially life threatening situation.

Great point.

Marshall, thank you for calling that out.

I know we've talked about a future episode.

Yes.

Steve, I think it would be very helpful for our listening audience

to tune into our future episode on suicide because obviously my journey

of grief has been profoundly affected by the fact that Matt died by suicide.

And I've talked to many, many, many people that lost loved ones from suicide and the

grief journey they're on is different than other peoples journeys that lost loved

ones from reasons other than suicide.

So, I invite our listening audience to please listen in to our future

episode on suicide, because I think it'll be very illustrative as to the

specifics of dealing with the loss of a love and a suicide, but also

generally with the grief process.

Because again, everybody's journey is unique, but there are common principles

that we all can use to survive and thrive through the grief process as

our loved ones would want us to do, because again, life is for the living.

Thank you for sharing that Marshall.

That'll be one of our up and coming episodes.

Um, we realized when we got together for this episode of COVID, that the suicide

was we'd have to come right after that and, and cover the topic of suicide.

As we wrap up this issue today, I also wanted to mention that, um, a

lot of the health care professionals are doing counseling online now.

If you're struggling at home, you're in isolation, haven't been going

out it's okay because a lot of the doctor's visits now, or either online,

via video or just a, a phone call.

So there's also options for counseling today, online, as well as a grief program.

There's plenty of those available as well.

So we just want to make sure that everybody has all the information that

they need to help them on their journey.

And so I want to say thank you for joining us today.

I know through grief and Marshall, thanks for helping us out.

Steve.

Thanks so much for again, your great insight and your great guidance to me in

particular and to our audience in general.

And I look forward to talking to you everybody next week.

Thanks everybody.

Stay well.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

cohost Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski.

We hope

our episode today was helpful and informative.

Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Therefore, if you or anyone, you know, requires medical or mental health

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.