The ability of venture capitalists to create value over a period of time is at the basis of one of the most interesting features of the crypto space. This week of Diving Into Crypto features James Ling, COO of Viral Ventures, who talks about how venture capitalists are synonymous with the name talent scouts and aims to create value in their respective ventures.

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VCS AS VALUE CREATORS - JAMES LING

Participants:

JP( Host)

James Ling ( COO of Viral Ventures)

Nadja Bester ( Co-founder of AdLunam)

00:22

JP

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our speaker in the house and once again, welcome welcome welcome to this week's episode of Diving Into Crypto where we look at VCs as the full form of VC. Of course, most of us know VC's as venture capitalists, but we're going to look at them as value creators. And we have of course, James from Viral Ventures, the COO to speak to us today. And before we get him on the stage, ladies and gentlemen, please remember views expressed on this program are for education purposes only and those views and opinions belong to that of the speaker and the organization he represents. So without further ado, thank you everyone for being here on time. And let's just do a quick test, right? So can we see everybody who knows how to use the reaction buttons, give us a reaction before we begin because you're going to hear a lot of interesting stuff during the show.

01:18

JP

James, thank you for being here. Once again, if you'd like to say hi to the audience and then we can get this show launched into the space that we share. All right.

01:27

James Ling

Sure, hello everyone. I'm a COO from Viral Ventures. We are a mix of community and private community members and private investors. Really glad to be here. Share my loyalty with you.

01:40

Nadja

Hi, James. This is Nadja. I think I'm going to take over for Jervis just a little bit until his connection is back online. So the topic today about value creation in the crypto and the Web3 space obviously is a very hot topic. Money flows so easily into this industry and around this industry. And I think as people who work in the industry, we are very well aware of the fact that value creation is so much more than just the funds that flow into a project. So I would love to know your thoughts on what is value creation really all about and how do VCs contribute to this type of value creation?

02:26

James Ling

Sure, that's a great question actually. So, long story short, basically I feel that the main value creation is all in the connections. It's actually not about marketing and marketing stuff, creating banners and stuff like that. So basically the main value creation in my opinion is with basically quality KOLs and marketing aspects, right.

02:51

James Ling

Because sometimes I feel during early stages of vetting a project, if we have any value that we can advise on, for example, things like tokenomics design and what can be improved on, or any other specific regions that they want to target marketing or curating a marketing list of different KOLs, right.

03:15

James Ling

From my experience in this space, I've seen way too many blind shots fired on the marketing site. Basically there is no clear execution plans or they don't have like a perfect marketing plan where they want to target regional KOLs from different regions and different audiences. So most VCs also have different team members specializing in different areas like advisory roles. I'm pretty sure you heard of the term advisory roles, right? So you'll be surprised to find some advisors who actually offer emotional support. So most often however, they are hired and paid to bring real industry experience into the project from a project's inception to execution and all the way to the project success basically. So usually one or two advisors for the entire project is sufficient depending on scale. So usually if we see more advisors than actual developers, those are reflect for us, right? Also I think I need to point something important is that value creation in this industry can be multipronged because there can be an arbitrary set of goals for a project at different times.

04:44

James Ling

VCs will often value add to utmost of their ability. For example, if a company has started to mature or any value that increases the profit margin ratio will be also considered a value add. So for expiring startups that just concluded several rounds of fundraising, VCs will usually then adapt to the current projects strategy to add value as sort of like an advisory role, providing feedback, bringing them connections, et cetera. To kick start the development or marketing phases. So ultimately my point is that there are, do I say this many different ways to value add to Web3 startups and the resulting goal is the same but it just comes in different flavors. I would just like to share real life example like when we vet one of the projects previously that we invested, we felt tokenomics is very important. For example, if something it is actually something we often prioritize because most projects' market valuation is primarily based on the value of the token at any point in time, right?

06:04

James Ling

So you can think of it this way. In the Web2 space we call it the economics and this is translated tokenomics in Web3. So I would say tokenomics is sort of like an arbitrary science but still important regardless. We have been in multiple meetings where were presented with tokenomics. Everything went super well but then when they present us with the tokenomics it doesn't look too healthy in our opinion. So we basically tries to value from the early stage and suggested on ways to improve it, right? Because just a cliche example and not practical one is like to say it doesn't make sense if angel's investing period is significantly shorter than a private round, isn't it, right? So designing tokenomics isn't an easy task. So this is usually when projects tries to gather information from multiple VCs because they have more experience in this space evaluating and looking at tokenomics because you can say hey, I can design tokenomics but actually it's not really that easy when you have to look so deep into what it represents.

07:25

James Ling

Basically, it could be like the entire company's vision, a Proof of Stake in a company, or you can say it's like a governance token and most importantly, its main utility, right.

07:39

James Ling

What drives this main utility is also what a project aims to achieve both short term and long term, basically, and how this token can grow by managing supply and demand via various mechanics. All these are actually driven, true, and affected by the company's decision and roadmap. When people say, hey, can you help us to value add, this is just one of the example that we provide value at, apart from curated marketing execution. I also like to share our thought process, like my team's thought process, when sorry, I have to focus a lot on tokenomics because this is one of the many things that we advise projects on, right?

08:32

James Ling

Is that if a project so one way we think of it when looking at tokenomics is that if a project hits maturity phase, this is just our thought process, and Bitcoin or Ethereum, let's say, drops by 10% over a period of 7 days, then do you think that the projects token will drop by more than 10%? Basically what I'm trying to say is, will we outdo the market or underperform is the fully diluted value, aka FDV of the project and launch or TGE, as you are most familiar with, reasonable with the service it provides in the long term. So this is just one example. We may not completely replace us as VCs. We may not completely replace the role of an advisor in the project, but we sometimes also act like a part time advisor. Yeah. So just other things that I personally do when doing my career in this VC is basically since I specialize in Web2 hacking and marketing band designs, I can also help value add to these projects as well.

09:48

JP

Certainly. Okay, thanks for that. James, I find it very curious that you are also a hacker. Was that how you got into Web3 in the first place, or what got you to it?

10:03

James Ling

Sorry, I couldn't hear you very well. Do you repeat your question?

10:07

JP

Sure. What was your entry into the Web3 space? What got you there? Did a light bulb go off someplace and said where it told you, hey, this is the space that I want to be in?

10:23

James Ling

Sorry, I couldn't catch your question. You're kind of breaking off a little bit.

10:28

JP

Okay. All right, let me try that again.

10:32

JP

Right, okay. What got you into the Web3 space? What was that moment for you where you said, Web3 is where I want to be?

10:44

James Ling

Okay, so this is a long story. So back in two one seven. I bought my first Bitcoin and I bought it just because everybody's just hyping it. Then from then on, I basically started doing some trading where I made my first loss, major loss. And then I kind of gave up because there's way too many. It's too complicated, I feel, in the Web3. But then I began to see some projects that some very strong project that are constantly building on Ethereum. And then I felt like there was this very strong conviction in the developer space where they were discussing on how to develop a certain project built on Ethereum, right?

11:30

James Ling

So that is my first entry point into Web3. Basically. From there I can actually see how this project can actually change people's lives, basically when there's this integration of Web2 and Web3 to further enhance people's life. Right, because in Web3 you are focusing on identities, and in Web2, as a hacker myself, I can see way too many insecure authorization and insecure authentication all over the place. But of course Web3 has its own security flaws, but I think it's just two different things. And yeah, I firmly believe in Web3, and after seeing all the technologies that can be built on layer one, layer two makes me all more confident in the future of Web3.

12:22

JP

Okay, so in your opinion, Web3 is obviously going to be more secure than Web2 because you're seeing it from your enthusiasm point of view, so you obviously have an in-depth point of view into that. Is that something we can take away, Web3 being more secure?

12:42

James Ling

I wouldn't say Web3 being more secure because as a Web2 hacker, anything that is built by human is hackable at some point. It's how you implement the security measures, right? In Web2 we have web applications, mobile app, and then you have server side validations and stuff. But in Web3, how you actually secure the overall Web3 ecosystem is basically the usage of smart contracts. So smart contracts are very important, right?

13:15

James Ling

So as you can see, most hacks happen when there is a hack on or there's a loophole in smart contract. So this is why auditing is very important. And also the weakest link is always human. In Web2, you can basically fish people or do social engineering, right? You can trick someone to give up your password and your OTP, but in Web3, you can trick someone to give up their seed phrase. Human is always the weakest link. So education in Web3 is very important to drive global adoption.

13:53

JP

Without doubt, that's almost scary and when you put it across like that. But it's also at the same time something important for all of us to take away when it comes to security because we are so vulnerable if we don't put measures in place.

14:10

James Ling

Yes, 100% agree.

14:14

JP

Okay, fantastic. All right, so James, my next question to you is coming back to Viral Ventures and value creation in this particular space. Is there a philosophy for choosing your investment right into your projects and the types of projects could you shed some light on what is the philosophy you'll follow?

14:40

James Ling

Yeah, sure. This is a very important part of our process, which is vetting and doing our due diligence when deciding on an investment. So the overall philosophy, it's basically whenever we have a potential project that we are interested to invest in, basically we have to enumerate as much information as possible because information is gold in this space, whether you want to find out their rate flags or what's their vision, et cetera, et cetera. So when the project passes the initial vetting with all the prior research we did previously, then we will definitely want to get a call with the team members, especially the CEO or the co-founders. So this is the important point here, because we want to see the ability of the CEO or the co-founders to actually be able to sell their vision and project to us. Why this is important, because they are the brains of the company, they are the head, so they're supposed to drive the project from the very top.

15:51

James Ling

16:42

James Ling

And also, then there was this metaverse trend, I think supposedly started when Facebook rebranded to Meta, which then resulted in a whole new wave of new gaming projects, both good and bad. I mean, most of them aren't that great, to be honest, but the minority is really good. So bringing back myself to my earlier point, although I only gave two examples, but all these factors are just, I think, the most important when evaluating a project. And oh, I forgot one thing, also the unique selling point of a project. Unique selling point is very important to us because this market is so ever so saturated with projects constantly coming, right?

17:30

James Ling

These are 3 examples of the process that we go through when choosing investment venues, right? Yeah. So then we will have like a meetings with team meetings to discuss before reaching a common consensus to invest or not. Yeah, these agreements happen. We have constructive debates, then once we have common consensus, then we will decide on investing in a project. Yeah, that's about it.

18:02

JP

That's excellent, James, because I like the honesty of that answer where you tell us that, yes, it's not every time that everybody in the team is going to be on the same page, you can still debate it. And that really just shows all of us over here, how strong a team that Vital Ventures is. So thank you for that honest answer.

18:24

James Ling

Thank you. Yeah, these agreements often happen, but I see those as a constructive debate. It makes us stronger as a team to brainstorm whether an investment is a good choice or not. Thanks, Jervis.

18:37

JP

Sure. Okay. All right. So that being said, James, we always come across the fact that, as you said, the CEO has to sell their vision when it comes to investing.

18:53

JP

Right. At the same time, there's also a community that needs to be built around the project. Also a community that needs to be built that is loyal to the project, that likes what it's happening, what it's offering. Now, it may be a metric, it may not be a metric, but I want to get your point of view on how important do you think that a community is at a project and you can tell us about that. The stages, pre investment and then going up. What are some of the insights you can share on that, James?

19:28

James Ling

Yeah, sure. Yes. I would say community is definitely important because they are ultimately the ones who will be the users of your platform, right. Or whatever services that you are going to build. You can think of it this way, like, they are your customers. So regardless of what project or services or whatever platform you are offering, a project will be nothing without a community, right?

19:58

James Ling

So analogy is like you own a store but no one comes and buy things from you. Then it's just a store. There will be no demand, right?

20:11

James Ling

Like us, we are partially community VC and we have partial private investors. So even we have communities. We are not like a service provider, we are a VC. But we have communities. We do the research and we provide them a chance to enter, see the private rounds, and then we ourselves invest a chunk of allocation, right?

20:33

James Ling

Then in return, our most loyal community members, they will be able to share important information like deal flows or other market opinions, which makes the entire interaction a lot more interesting. So, yes, community to a project is paramount, but I think what really makes it is that whatever a project provides either be like a service or utility or even a metaverse game, let's say. It has to be a win-win or perceived as such, right?

21:11

James Ling

A lot of projects out there are always letting the user perceive things either through a play of their words. I'm not going to say that's a good interaction, but that is kind of like a psychological marketing strategy. It's not wrong as long as they execute it correctly, right?

21:33

James Ling

So for a game, it has to be fun. And the right way is to say, hey, Play to Earn is a bonus. But most games say, hey, you play this game, you earn $1 million a day or something like that. That's just an exaggeration. So for a service, it has to solve like a current market problem in a practical way, right? So there are things to basically hype a community up. It's like an exchange of goods. A similar concept, let's say I want to buy a bottle of beer from you and I determine the price is right, so both wins. So it's a win-win.

22:19

James Ling

So you get a profit margin from selling the beer and I happen to be craving for beer, right. No one loses here. This is what builds community. I feel this may seem abstract for a project, but most project that wasn't successful always prefer to use hype and over promises, right? So once this hype dies down, combined with a lack of continued motivation in execution, this will lead to a delayed roadmap and most importantly, bringing back the point as to what I'm saying is that it would decrease communities confidence. So this is where they start to lose their community. And also, from my experience in this space, even though a project is very strong, they have a lot of back end work, developers working 24 hours a day, but they lack transparent communication and then they lose community as well. So yes, community is important, but what really makes it is all these factors, right?

23:27

James Ling

Frequent communication and updates to the community actually just shows that there's progress in the project. You keep the confidence at a certain part in this market where it's overly saturated with projects, the community you build up ever so hard will be very easily distracted if you don't communicate, they might just move somewhere else. So ultimately, yes, community is important, but I think the execution of the project communication as well, I think it's what makes or breaks a project. Yeah. Nadja I think Jervis is experiencing connectivity problems again.

24:10

Nadja

I was about to unmute. So I just want to sort of build on the previous question. I mean, first of all, thank you very much for your insights about what makes a community and also definitely this differentiation between how hyped driven the concept of community is. But really that community is all about this relationship between a project and its audience. And it's not really an audience even because I think in Web3 there's this co-creation that takes place. So it's not as if the project only kind of shares with the community what's happening, but it's this process where the community also shapes what the project is doing because they have this input. So I think you really encapsulated the importance of this relationship between these two groups. So I want to build on this question. You guys have invested in a bunch of different projects and worked with a lot of different projects, so can you tell a bit of some of the success stories?

25:12

Nadja

I mean, you're named or unnamed, just give us a bit of an idea of really some of these projects that you've worked with that has taken off, have gone to the moon. What are some of the general sort of characteristics? I know it's very specific to a market and also to a specific type of project, but generally speaking, what makes a successful project, as you've experienced with the projects that you have worked with?

25:42

James Ling

All right, yeah. So we only incepted last year, November actually, at almost a market peak, right.

25:51

James Ling

So the projects that we have invested, it's too short of a period to tell yet, right.

25:57

James Ling

So we do not have projects that have taken off the moon because the market was all downhill from there. But I would like to put into a spotlight one project, I don't think I would name it, but there's this one gaming project where they have really strong marketing plans and we worked with them to basically execute the marketing plan. So they have this Excel sheet where they have like a two month long execution and marketing plan, right.

.

26:28

James Ling

So every day there's something going on leading up to the TGE. So I feel that the fact that they have planned, that means they have planned to succeed in this aspect, right?

26:38

James Ling

So upon TGE, all of us work together with the marketing roadmap, and upon TGE, it was already 10x in value from the sale. So this is pretty powerful whereby we feel that when a project and a VCs stick to the timeline and deliver campaign a day by day, it's going to have a very rippling it's like a rippling effect to the market. Right, so then maybe to the moon is not very, how do I say it's, very feasible in the bear market because liquidity dies down, investors are scared to invest, so they don't permit liquidity into additional projects. For those that have already TGE, most of the projects we invested has already gone down, but we have conviction that they will rise to allocation once again, right.

27:37

James Ling

Because usually when we invest in a project, we have very close communication with project owners, the developers and stuff, so we often interact and know what they are working on. Right, but then most of the community will then they don't know the technical details, so they will kind of ask what's happening with the project, then they will start to FUD and things like that. Often than not, we will try to let them know the things that we can say and what we cannot say. So even though the tokens went down in this bear market, but ultimately we have conviction with the project they are working with because these are long term projects, basically, and we believe in them. So, yeah, not much of a success story except that there's one token that 10x on launch. Yeah, that's basically it. We're all holding our fort with the projects during this time.

28:41

James Ling

So it's all good.

28:43

Nadja

Yeah, I mean, I think during the bear market, you are lucky if you even have long term travel or even just traveling to a different continent or a different country, never mind going to the moon. So for sure, exactly as you say, patience is required at this time. But I think in terms of the project that you mentioned, I wonder how many of us are now sitting here wondering if it's the same project that we think of, because there have definitely been a few stars at least during the early stages of the beginning of this market. So I'm curious as well, some of the projects, maybe this particular market might be the cause of this, or maybe it's more of a general sort of sense. Have there been projects that despite your best efforts, despite their best efforts, things simply didn't take off for whatever reason?

29:40

Nadja

And why would you say that is?

29:44

James Ling

All right, yeah, for confidentiality reason, I wouldn't disclose the project as well. But to me, to our team, basically, it's really a pity because when we first started, we had some bad decisions on investing in certain projects, but in retrospect, after how much we've grown, we would not have rather invested in. So one of the really good example of a project that despite our best efforts, did not take off is when we are actually really close with the founders. We did AMA with them, we found out what they're doing, basically really had close relationships. But what is pity about this project is basically when they hired only one blockchain developer who has full control of the smart contract, right? So as I said, humans is always the weakest link and Web3 security is something that you have to think as a founder. So back then we didn't realize that they only have one developer managing the smart contract.

30:53

James Ling

So eventually he went broke and siphoned off the funds and this project have to die down. So a lot of people lost a lot of money and I think the founders, they weren't very responsible and they basically disappeared off as well. So went deep on research. We tried to find the founders again. We even did an image search. We had like a VCs, we have a close group where all the founders who actually lost money gather up and try to bring the developer to justice. But unfortunately it wasn't successful. So it was actually a painful lesson learned, which keeps us stronger in this bear market. We are now more strict in our investment criteria and only looking for longer term projects. What is important is basically right now when we vet the team, or we vet the entire team to ensure the execution, there won't be any potential weakest link or reducing the impact of weakest link in human, right?

32:00

James Ling

So every time when we get on a call, we advise projects on the security principle of duty segregation, where any single point of time a developer shouldn't have full control on a smart contract. However you implement it, I don't really care, but as long as you can implement it on the interface, you can implement it in the smart contract. It's up to you as long as if a developer wants to withdraw funds and another person will have to agree to it. In smart contract, in simpler terms, it's like a not sick safe or a wallet or contract whereby you need two or more persons permission in order to withdraw the fund or build into the smart contract. Yeah, so I think this by far one of the saddest things that happened to me, to our team ,basically, and that's another project that didn't went well despite what we did. Basically the direction was wrong and they did not want to pivot, right.

33:10

James Ling

So it's ultimately all on the team's decision because we can advise but we cannot help them change the decision or make certain decisions that they already made. So I think stubborness is the cost of why this project went down. So yeah, I think that's about it from me.

33:35

Nadja

Yeah, I think these expensive lessons that we learn, all of us learn in this industry, they really feel very painful but at the same time it's almost like school fees that you pay in order to get your education, whether it's a retail investor or as a VC. So I want to kind of tail end on the idea of doing due diligence on projects. What is your particular research approach? You've mentioned earlier that you have certain key elements that you look for. For example, when you speak to founders and you make sure that they are able to really translate this vision that they have on the call, what are some of the research tools that Viral Ventures uses? Or what is the key things that you look for and also adding on to that for retail investors, what would you recommend would be the number one sort of thing that people look for when they do due diligence on projects that they are interested investing in?

34:38

James Ling

Yes. All right. So, actually we do not have a paid tool that we use for research. Many of the alpha information or at least startups are shared among our closest connections. So what I would advise is connections. If you have connections, try to leverage on it because okay, so to put this long story short, right, basically if you don't want to spend on tools, leverage on connections. If you have money, just go buy a tool like PitchBook. So basically or you can use both. So we have a team who mainly focus on acquiring information on the latest crypto startups and if they pass our initial vetting, we will proceed to set up a call with them to understand things like technical details, vision and the product they are going to build. I cannot emphasize how important connections are in this space because they really are.

35:43

James Ling

Our main source of early deals, right? So initially were looking to use PitchBook as a main research tool. They have vast amounts of raw research data and are really useful to source for potential limited partners, look for new startups, or even see what people are investing into, which are usually not accessible to the public. So I was discussing with my team and then we found that it's way too expensive for smaller startups like us who do not really need this much data, right? So at this point in time, what we actually need is actually crypto expertise, which we already have, and we are able to spot the fluid market trends. We do not need to spend liquidity on a paid tool, which we do not currently need at this point in time. It's going to cost us opportunity cost, in short. So this skill set is particularly important.

36:45

James Ling

For example, we have identified one of factors which will enable a company's success. For example, an integration between Web2 and Web3. Technologies. This kind of thing you cannot extract from pure data alone. How you actually analyze the data is more important, right, but why do we need a paid tool when you can actually have your own? You can leverage on your own connections to piece out puzzle of the current market trend, the current market and things like that, right? So a lot of you may have heard of everyone shouting or posting on Twitter saying, hey, you're still early in Web3. I mean, yes, that's true, but I think most of us are intentionally led by this sentence, right? Like, yes, I can give you a data. I say, yes, you are lean Web3, but do you know how to use this information is a key, right?

37:45

James Ling

While this sentence is correct, it is misleading if you misunderstood it. So research conducted by Triple-A, they applauded an estimate global crypto adoption at 300 million users, or just under 4% of the worldwide population, and it's growing constantly. So how you link information is important as well, right? So what I personally feel from the experience in the space is that earlier..

38:20

James Ling

When I said that how you're going to use the data. So if you're early in the Web3 space, what we basically analyze from this is that we are actually in fact early in the Web2 integration into the Web3 ecosystem. This is what we identified from the trend, from our experience, basically. So these two should not grow in silo, but instead merge and grow together, right? Just to give you an example, it's like a startup that built smart contract templates that serve as a middleware to enable Web2 companies with zero blockchain experience or expertise to hop onto the Web3 ecosystem, right? If we have any companies coming to us and say, hey, invest in that, we will definitely consider that. Because it's Web2 to Web3 integration, right..

39:10

James Ling

Web3 alone. Cannot survive without Web2. There's always some sort of integration in between. So imagine the business efficiency in combining the Web3 smart contract middleware with the Web2 based services to enable industries like real estate or healthcare. Imagine how big that can grow, right? So many people just say, hey, come and buy my coin. You're early in Web3. They're trying to mislead you. Don't believe them, right? Just try to analyze data and form your own opinions based on your own experience and discuss with people that you trust, right? Yeah, so that's about it. I'm sorry, I digress a little bit, but yeah, that's my thought process, basically, for your question.

39:59

Nadja

No, James, I think that was not at all you digressing. That was a brilliant answer, because ultimately, there is such a misconception in the space. Exactly as you say. Okay, there's this new bandwagon that everyone needs to jump on, and if you are, I don't know, one of the first ten people, you're going to make it rich and you're going to go all the way to the moon. But really, so much of what's happening in the industry can be logic out. So if you really think about what is the utility of this project and realizing that there isn't this bridge from the Web2 world that we are all existing in to Web3, then it's probably not going to take off, even if it is a brilliant idea. But the time is just not right. So I think your answer really said it best.

40:48

Nadja

You don't need fancy tools and you don't need a lot of sort of board data analytics and that kind of thing. Ultimately, if you look at how things are playing out, it's easy to see that certain projects have utility now and others are really just a fantastic idea, but maybe ten years too early. And I also really loved what you said about the community because we tend to have this really sort of bad idea of it's not what you know, it's who you know. And if you're not part of this sort of in club, the boys club, and the sort of insider group, then that means you're going to miss out on a lot of what's happening. But I think many people's experience in the Web3 space is because the community is such a welcoming place, it's actually really easy to make those connections or at least easier than in other industries where things happen more in silo and there's more glass ceilings.

41:50

Nadja

So for sure, I think this is a friendlier industry in which to make connections. So, yeah, that is, I think, the end of our show today. I just have a few questions from the audience, so I'm going to just remind everyone. If you would like to ask a question, you can either request to be a speaker or you can inbox the question. To the AdLunam Twitter handle so I have one already that I'm going to read out that was inboxed is Viral Ventures still investing in projects and what type of projects are you considering?

42:30

James Ling

Yes, we are still investing in projects. We don't have a specific category on what kind of projects or what genre that we are going to invest in. What's important is the project itself, right? So earlier when I said we look at the unique selling point, the vision and when we speak to the CEO how he's able to sell us his product and vision, it's very important. Also a healthy tokenomics and what the project is trying to achieve. We wouldn't like to invest in a project that is like a copy of another project that's already having a strong existing user base. Yeah, we are still investing in projects but we are more stricter in our vetting during this time.

43:21

Nadja

And i think that's probably also one of those really great things that is helping the industry to become more, let's say sophisticated and less just all about the hype. There are these times when people do become more discerning. So I have a really interesting question for the next one. What should projects look for in good VCs?

43:42

James Ling

All right, so I think this is going to be a long and complicated topic but I'll try to make it short, right..

43:50

James Ling

So there are a lot of complaints or shout outs about VCs whereby they were saying about the risk of VCs for crypto community, right? So there's a lot of I'm just trying to be honest here. So there's a lot of competing interest and agendas, right? For example, token sales for Web3 startups can be like I don't know, can be for a cult leader founder plus a bunch of VCs and then subsequently hyped up by a group of discord dwelling people. So how do people or how do the founding teams of each project achieve the balance between the needs and wants of the VCs and what's best for the community? Right?

44:34

James Ling

So how do you look out for good VCs? Basically there is no quick and fast way to look at a VCs because when I actually started out the VC I want it to be for the community to be able to invest in private and seed round, right? But as for big VCs, sometimes I wish there will be like a chart to rank VCs on whether they are in for a quick flip down on their communities and stuff like that. So how do you look out for VCs? Basically look into what the leaders are doing. For example the recent Lunar crash you can basically see what they are doing with their money, right? What they are doing with people's investment. So these are all brought to light but if Lunar crash didn't happen you wouldn't know because all these are back end. So how do you get to know whether a VC is good or not engage with them, track their wallet.

45:37

James Ling

I mean, that's not an easy way to do, but there's always a way to have like generate a bubble map of the VC's wallet and stuff like that. So there's really no hard and fast rule on how do you determine whether it's a VC. Just look at their normal and unusual way of operations and try to track them with any connections you have.

45:59

Nadja

Brilliant. Thanks James. And I just want to add on here AdLunam has been working with Viral Ventures and we can definitely say that we are very happy working with you guys. You are surely one of those VCs that have a lot of value add and really just bring a lot of positivity to projects. So thank you for this, thank you for the way that you show up in the industry. And also thank you for your thoughts and your insights. Today has been very illuminating and it's absolutely great hearing about these sort of insider goings on straight from the horse's mouth. I think that you've given a lot of eye opening information to people who might not understand the ins and outs of the VC industry. So thank you again for your time today and I think the audience really had a great time. I see a lot of people have tuned in.

46:53

Nadja

So with that, happy to have spoken to you. Sorry that Jervis had some connectivity issues. There's a storm brewing where he is in the world, so at least he's going to get some nice rain. But it does mean that you had to put up with me. So with that, James, thank you so much. Have a lovely day wherever you are in the world and we shall connect again soon.

47:15

James Ling

Sure. Thanks everybody. Thanks Nadja. Bye bye.

47:19

Nadja

Cheers guys. Have a great day everyone.