In this episode of Talking Hospitality, Timothy R Andrews and Joe McDonnell are joined by Olajide Alabi, one of the UK’s most engaging voices in Equality, Diversity & Inclusion — and Co-Founder of SISU, the People Experience Agency.

Olajide breaks down what EDI really means in practice: how inclusion starts with belonging and psychological safety, why focusing on diversity alone misses the point, and what real leadership looks like when it’s human-centred and curious.

In this episode:

• Why inclusion and equity matter more than diversity targets
• The dangers of “tick-box” EDI approaches
• How psychological safety transforms culture and performance
• Why representation at the top still matters — and how to get there
• The business benefits of empathy, curiosity, and storytelling

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• TGI Fridays
• SISU
• Graphic Kitchen

Your focus should be on.

I want to make sure that first of all, the people that are within my business feel that they're included, feel like they belong and psychologically safe. I think the opportunities are being missed for making more money, but also from creating new ideas and creating new concepts.

If you're working with people that look and sound from the same background as you, you're not learning anything. You're not picking. You're not learning about new cultures, not learning about new religion, new ideas. It's about telling stories in my eyes.

It's about, you know, making it. Explaining about the human experience, getting them to ask more questions and be more curious with their teens.

Because as soon as you start to learn about different people's perspectives, you'll start to become a bit more empathetic. No point in doing training and forcing people to come and attend training if they're not engaged with the why. Why are we doing this as a business?

What does it mean to us as a business? What's the impact? I would say the first question is ask better questions of yourself, of your team.

Not like how diverse are we, but maybe how do our people feel here, working here? I do think that leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating the space for everyone else around you to grow.

The voices.

You know.

Timothy, Tracy and Joe on the show, from front of house to shuts off the line, every voice can.

Shape the future each time. Well, ajide, welcome to talking hospitality. Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be invited.

Yeah, it's very exciting.

Strongly recommended. Yeah.

By just about everybody.

I was summoned.

I didn't even have this scheduled with you. You just appeared!

So we. Yeah, because you're very prolific in the edi world.

Prolific. That's a big word.

Yeah.

Okay.

Don't ask me what it means. I just like using it. So. So that's my ex ns a story for another day. Right. Okay. He was very disappointed.

Can we.

Can we ask one question?

What is it?

So you're very prolific in the EDI world.

Yeah.

Now, EDI right now is being banded around in the media on socials. It's being used by politicians as either one to promote or one to hit somebody with a stick on. And yet we all seem to think we know what EDI is.

We all have a sort of understanding, we believe. But when you actually ask somebody what EDI is, sometimes you get blank faces. So for our listeners, that might be one of those blank faces.

They know, they hear about it, they Kind of got grasp. What is edi?

So EDI is an acronym which is used to shorten equality, diversity and inclusion. And sometimes it's used to shorten the words equity, diversity and inclusion, depending on, I don't know who's using it, I suppose.

Like there is so much diversity in, you know, the age ranges, the genders, the sexualities, the religion, socioeconomic background, you know, whether or not you work full time, part time, whether or not you're left handed, right handed. That is all diversity. Diversity makes up the richness, that is the world that we live in and that just happens naturally.

And then you have inclusion and inclusion is a feeling conclusion is that like that innate feeling where you go and you feel like you belong somewhere that you like, you're valued, you're seen, you're heard and if you have the inclusion, everything else will fall in place, I always say. And inclusion is like the way you should really be focusing your efforts on. And then you have equity. Now equity is a bit different.

If you Google equity, you might start getting confused with like finance and stuff like that.

But equity in terms of people is about making sure that you identify that everyone is different, everyone has a different starting place, everyone has different perspectives, different level life experiences. And so everyone needs to be treated accordingly to their, to the person that they are.

And so identifying each individual's needs and giving them the resources and the tools and the support that they need for them specifically.

And I think what we tend to do in society is that we go, well, you're all the same, you'll start on this stepping stone and we expect you all to get to this goal and, and be treated exactly the same.

Where it's actually, you and I both aren't the same and we don't look the same, we don't sound the same, we don't have been, we haven't been through the same life experiences. So actually we, to be treated exactly the same in every single walk of life is a bit silly.

So it's kind of like balancing the books really, isn't it? A little bit for, for somebody who's disadvantaged, to somebody who may have some privileges that other people don't have, creating.

A level playing field. Creating level. That is exactly. And if you look at the images, I don't use them as much anymore because I feel like they were overused like so much.

But there's an image of like people looking over a fence, watching a football game and they all had a stepping stone to look over. But there's one person that's shorter, there's one person that's taller, there's one person in a wheelchair. And actually it was like.

Well, actually, to make sure that everyone's on the same playing field, you would make sure that equity was involved so that the person that was sure to have. And they all could see over the fence. And that's just like creating that level playing field for everyone.

But identifying that everyone's paying field is going to be starting point is going to be slightly different.

It's quite easy, isn't it, to be in a bubble because if you. Because everyone judges by their own reception. But I remember and I can't remember names of the village and it was Swiss sports directors.

The Kettering, I think there's a few. Ashfield is massive big sports where the head office is, right. It's just gone for me and had it in my head about five seconds ago.

Basically you go through that town and it's devastated. It's next mining tabular, right? It's just been devastated. It's been devastated for years.

You know, it's still got numbers from the 80s when they're falling off the. The windows of the shops, right? Yeah, it's really, really. It's near Mansfield. Kids are in this playing in the streets and everything.

We had a lot of Eastern Europeans working in the shop and when the kids were being asked, well, why are you not applying for the jobs? Yeah, right. They were saying, well, because all the Eastern Europeans have taken it. They're all taking their jobs.

Right?

Then we said, but have you ever applied? And they went, no. The reason why they didn't apply is because they didn't believe that there was even an opportunity for them.

So it's all very well, people like for example in London, where we think you can get up and think, well, everyone's got any playing field. These kids didn't have that until somebody pioneer pointed out that was the life. That is how they believe life to be.

So while there's obviously all the other diversity stuff, even on a base level, you know, it's there. And this is. This is how I understand equity. Is that how you understand it as well?

Like to give these people an opportunity to maybe believe in themselves and give someone an opportunity the same as you Possibly.

Can I always use this example of like, when I started working in like the corporate world.

I would say that, you know, when you get put on like a training program and everyone gets put on the same, like, I don't know if you're going to be like a gm, everyone gets put on the same pathway.

Was actually if I have come, gone to school and had a really bad experience with the education system and maybe I'm a little bit neuro spicy, and then I put on this on the same program with you who had a really great education, we went to private school, etc. We're going to, we're going to experience that training program or that pathway in a very different ways.

I may not get to the end because I may give up. So I might need extra support to make sure I get through the program, whereas you won't.

Well, actually what we tend to do is just go over everyone go on the black pathway and everyone just gets treated exactly the same, which, you know, I guess that's still legally, that's fine. But if you want to be going the extra mile and want to be making sure that everyone's got the equal playing field or even the opportunity.

Because I've experienced myself, right. Because I've. I'm neurodiverse, I've got adhd, I've worked in a corporate environment who do not understand it.

They just don't get it because corporate is very much, this is how it fits and this is what we do.

And then when you think outside the box and you can't even necessarily think the same way as I guess, the majority of people, which is why corporate works on so many levels, is the majority of people think a certain way. It's really hard and it's really hard to navigate that space and it makes the job harder than it perhaps should be.

Yeah.

So this is what we're talking about, equity. We don't want to dwell too much on that neurodiversity. We're going to talk on another podcast, but I just wanted to like, share.

So thank you very much.

That's all right. I think it's important that people understand that you need to probably focus less on the diversity and more on the equity and the inclusion. Yeah.

And actually that's where I think we're missing some of the real powerful, impactful work.

That's a good point.

If there's people who, let's say they're employees, let's say they're in positions where they have got influence on their, on their surroundings, on their work space and sort of where people sort of fit in, I guess in their workspaces. Let's say they've got the best of intentions. Let's say they've got some working knowledge.

Are there any sort of common mistakes that you see with people with good intentions but maybe are a little bit misguided or lack a little bit of education?

I always think that people focus on the tick box stuff and the stuff that they think is the right thing to do.

So what I mean by that is I think a lot of people focus on diversity and people go, well, we're really, we're going to aim to be more diverse and we're going to recruit diversity and we're going to spend a lot of money on making sure that we get the right people in the right places and they're diverse, which is great. However, I think that that feels a little bit tick boxy. It feels like we're just trying to follow the trend and actually diversity is all around us.

So and most of the time when people think about divers, they think about gender and race and then that's about it was actually diversity is so much more.

So I think people fall down that trap of focusing so much on diversity that they completely forget that if you are recruiting diversely and you are getting those to people from different walks of life into your business, if you haven't got the inclusion part, you're actually, what you're doing is really dangerous and actually what you're doing is detrimental to people's well being, mental health because you're not looking after them properly. And if you haven't got equity in your business either for those people, they're not going to perform properly, they're not going to make you money.

So if you're focusing solely on diversity, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Okay, so best of intentions is I'll get the ball rolling with some diversity.

Yeah.

So that's step one. Yeah, what's that?

Two, I actually say that, say that that shouldn't be step one. I would say that you shouldn't be focused. The diversity things shouldn't happen at all. You shouldn't have that focus at all.

Your focus should be on, I want to make sure that first of all the people that within my business feel like they're included, feel like they belong and psychologically safe.

So that's going to be my main focus and then I'm going to make sure that those people have equity in their progression, in their training and their development and in also in the way that we recruit. So I'm going to make sure that's inclusive and that's like maybe the second step.

And I think once you do those things, the diversity will happen naturally.

And then if you want to look at the third aspect of it, I would then say representation is the problem, that we do not have representation in senior roles in the UK as much as we should do. When we look at people in power, people in senior roles, they don't look like me and that's a problem. And so that should be the focus.

So those are the kind of. So the diversity thing, just literally just throw it away. Don't worry about it, it will happen. Focus on that, the rest of the stuff.

So is that what you think is missing in the current conversation? That EDI is.

I think what's. Yeah, I think that's.

I think what's missing is we're not talking about the hard stuff because actually it's, it's easy to go, well, we're recruiting diversely at entry level. But then what are you doing in terms of. Because there's a glass ceiling, right? And it's clear.

That's why we haven't got the representation in, in the industry. Well, what are you doing to make sure that you're getting that representation?

I'm not saying go out and just hand pick a CEO that's black and then hand pick another CEO that's differently abled and one that's woman. Like, I don't think that's the right thing either. What I'm saying is, though, is that there is a ceiling and there's people not getting past that.

Why is that? Is that because you haven't got equity in their progression? Is that because you're being a little bit biased?

So let focus on that and focus about how you, like, break those ceilings for those people. And I think how you do that is through. Is through coaching and is through mentorship.

And I think, you know, I think about when I was coming up in my career, I never.

It's so weird because I worked in recruitment for like over 10 years and I didn't see a black person in a senior recruitment role, like, for the whole of my career. And it's only now I've started to see it more, which is fantastic.

But I didn't have anyone to look up to, so I had no one that I could be like, oh, you kind of got my experience. The same things I experience. You might see the world the way I see the world. And so that's quite difficult.

If you're, then you're recruiting all these diverse people, but they're not seeing the temple reflected in those senior roles. They're thinking, well, there is a ceiling for me. So I think there's that, that work that needs to be be done.

So in terms of overlooking, you know, when you've looked at equity, diversity, inclusion, how do you think that impacts like the wide of business beyond just the people team?

If your team feel like they're included and they belong and they have that sense of like, purpose and valued, then they're going to give the best service they possibly can. Like, I remember when I worked years ago, I worked for TGI Fridays and I remember I used to go into work and I used to feel so seen and so valued.

And I don't think they generally did anything in that time because it was like, you know, it wasn't, you know, diversity, inclusion wasn't a thing really in that in those days, but I think I just felt that. So then I made sure that every single guest that walked in the door had that same feeling that I felt.

I wanted to make sure that they felt like they belonged. I wanted to make sure that they felt cared for and looked after.

And I think that's why when I used to go into work, my mental health was, was, was really, was really good. So if you're not, if you're not doing that for your team, your team aren't doing that for your guests.

Your guests aren't having the best guest experience. So I think that's number one.

Number two, if you do the work properly, you're then able to attract a different set of people within, to your, into your business.

So whether that's guest or people you are like within your teams, I think you're then opening the doors for, I don't know, different ideas, more creativity, potentially attracting money from a different background that you haven't attracted before.

I think, like, if you think about the Purple pound, we don't do enough to attract, you know, people with disabilities because we, especially in hospitality, we shy away from it because it's going to cost the business money in the long run to try and change the design of restaurants. So, like, as soon as you start to think about things like that, you completely open the doors for loads of other opportunities.

I think the opportunities are being missed for making more money, but also from creating new ideas and creating new concepts.

Yeah, I think there's a, there's a point on here as well, what you said about TGI Fridays, because how I remember it, and it might be a little bit more rose tinted than I recall, but like where you said diversity can naturally happen if you do these other things. And actually what I do remember is TGI Fridays embrace the differences of the people that work. There's a diversity kind of brew there.

You have different people, you know, when being out wasn't quite so celebrated, accepted, they were very obviously out and able to wear makeup and have males or we had, I remember somebody disabled, you know, you know, sabled, working for the company and it was just, it just all enhanced that experience of it being a really cool place at that time.

I know I think there's some allegations later on down the line, but that time when I was a young person, it was the first time where what would I London would become to me later on. Yeah. I first experienced it as a person.

Working for an organization that has diversity and where the team feel they're looked after. You generally are learning so much more as well about the world.

But if you're working with people that look and sound from the same background as you, you're not learning anything. Yeah. You're not picking, you're not learning about new cultures, not learning about new religion, new ideas.

So actually you're living in that bubble that we about earlier and it just becomes, it becomes a silo and it just becomes a bit, it comes, becomes a bit of an echo chamber, which I hate using that word, but it does, it doesn't have a negative training.

And I think one of the things as well that I've, I think gets forgotten about is if your team are disengaged and they're not feeling included, they're going to leave, which means you're going to have a high turnover, which means you're going to have higher recruitment costs. So it does have a knock on effect and I think people forget about that sometimes when, when we, when we talk about this work.

Yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like there's an attitude shift that needs to happen.

Right.

Like we're talking about, it's not just about actionable, you know, things that you can put in place, but actually, you know, you gotta want to be behind it. And I think a lot, there's a lot of decision makers certainly who maybe are showing a little bit of sort of fatigue around the subject.

Oh God, yeah, yeah.

What's something that leaders can, teams can get excited about when they talk about edi?

I think first of all, I think it's about changing the narrative about it, feeling like it's an extra additional bit of work because I think if you're ever going to like managers who are now, I always think, I look at some GMs that I, that we work, I've worked with and that I'm close to and I'm like, God, I couldn't be a GM now. Like, to. Being a GM when I was a GM was so easy and now you've got so much other work that you have to do and you have to think about.

So however, we can make it easier for them as managers to be able to thread this kind of EDI stuff into their everyday. That's the best way forward. And I think that can be done by making it human and making it. It's about telling stories in my eyes.

It's about, you know, making it. Explaining about the human experience, getting them to ask more questions and be more curious with their teens.

Because as soon as you start to learn about different people's perspectives, you'll start to become a bit more empathetic. You'll start to treat them a bit differently, Your team will start to feel a bit more looked after, a bit more valued, a bit more cared for.

So I think it's about just making them feel like, if not extra work, but actually if you do this, your team will work better for you. You'll have a better connection with your team. They'll be able to do like.

I remember if my managers would call me on a Saturday morning and be like, you need to come in today on a Saturday night. I'd be like, yeah, cool, no worries, I'll be there.

Because I just had that, like, I don't know, I wasn't scared of her, but like, I just, like, I just, I just cared. I just cared. You just cared, right?

You cared so much about the business and about that manager and you just like, I don't know, I kind of sold my soul to the business. And I don't think you have that anymore. I don't think necessary and I don't think that's healthy.

But I definitely feel like, because I knew that I respected her and respected the way I was treated, I would kind of give anything to do to make sure that she was happy and the business was happy. And I think we've lost that kind of connection with our team slightly.

I think you're right, but I think it's to do with certainly when I was younger working, it felt like you're part of a genuinely part of a team or a community of people. No. So you didn't want to let your mates down. Yeah.

As well, yeah, you know, and if.

Somebody was sick and you want, you need to make, cover their backside because.

You know you the reason they need one! Ha ha

So part of that, and I think some of those. Camaraderie, camaraderie.

But I do think, I do think where some of the fatigue has come in is where people have started to use it like a tick box exercise. Because it's so cynical.

Yeah.

This is the problem.

We must have I X amount of people for this role so that we can say we hired X amount of people for this role rather than whether they're right for the role or not. Now there's a place for stuff. Of course there is. I'm not disputing that. But when it becomes a. No, no, it doesn't mean anything.

It's just a number for somebody's stats.

Yeah.

Then it feels imposed on.

And also when it's just about training, like when you're doing training, I always say to our clients, now when they ask us to do trading, I'm like, before we do training, have you asked, have you spoken to your team and seen where the gaps are in their knowledge?

Because there's no point in doing training and forcing people to come and attend training if they're not engaged with the why, why are we doing this as a business? What does it mean to us as a business? What's the impact?

And I think sometimes we just throw those ideas out and do stuff because we want to tick boxes and because we think it's the right thing to do. But actually we haven't asked the people that were doing the training or if it's right for them.

When I was a manager, I used to always think to myself, I want to leave this restaurant better than when I got here, so I want to leave the restaurant. And even when I was in recruitment, I'd be like, I want to leave this business in a better place than when I meant it. So I. Legacy plays a huge part.

I think if you speak to managers and you go, what's your legacy going to be like? What do you want people to remember you for?

Is that, is that from making an impact in this business and changing the culture, then people will go, yeah, of course I want to change the culture. Well, how are you going to change the culture?

You need to make sure that your team feel included and they're valued and they're safe psychologically and their well being is looked after and people then will start, I think it's just changing the way that you talk about EDI and think about it more From a, from a leadership and from a growth perspective rather than from a policy HR for.

Getting people to talk about their story. Like you said, the human level.

That's where I see change when I'm putting ever I'm doing training and I get people to talk about, share something about themselves because there's so much we don't know about people and then there's suddenly this drop of revelation. Yeah.

This person was a doctor or they've had some kind of trauma or they've made their way from nothing to something and there's so many hidden stories and it's only when you create an atmosphere where it's then inclusive.

Yeah.

That's when, that's when it becomes a reality because people suddenly look at you, they don't look at each of that. That twat that works over there, there be all that. Oh my God, that's Colin who's.

Yeah.

This kind of life. And I think, I think that's why.

I always say to people as well, you can't. I hate. Because I used to hate the saying and people say, oh, we just need to walk a day in my, in my, in my shoes. You can't ever do that.

You can never do that. However, you can get like an insight into people's lives by asking questions.

So when like you, like you might come into work and actually I might get you. You might be late and I might be like, why are you late today?

And you go, because, you know, I've had to look after my mum because I'm, I'm a carer for my mother and it's like, okay, cool. And if I'd asked the questions already, I'd already know that I wouldn't ask that question.

I wouldn't put you in that position and I wouldn't make you feel awkward because I'd already know that you're looking after your mum, your carer, you've got care responsibilities. So I'm not going to always ask those questions. I'm going to give you a little bit of leeway for that lameness.

And I think it's just about those simple things and those simple cues. Yeah.

And there's another benefit there as well, which is if you set the standard that you're welcome here, you're accepted here and we accept that we're all different and that's okay. Yeah. Somebody doesn't then have.

If they don't feel comfortable to divulge something about themselves, about their personal life because that's not necessarily public knowledge. Right. Like my mom's like, I don't want to talk about it.

Yeah.

You know, I don't want to tell every single one of my team members, and if I'm having an update or if I've got a neurodivergence that's not apparent to other people, I don't want to have to tell people that it's private.

Yeah.

And I should be able to be at work and have that held privately.

Yeah.

And have that, you know, have that confidence that this is okay for me. It's a good place to, you know, ideally, we don't know what these things are. We don't notice them, we don't care, because it doesn't.

It doesn't make any difference.

I think it's really hard, though, to have, especially in hospitality, to have a private life.

Yeah.

Because. Because where we used to have work and then life and needs to be very separate. I think life and work is, like, very much ingrained. And it's just.

It's just one thing now. It's just life. It's not work, life, balance, thing. It's just, you know, we're just living.

And so if you're just living, you can't switch off who you are when you go into the workplace. We shouldn't be anyway. You should be able to walk into the workplace and just be yourself and be received for who you are.

And if some people won't want to share everything about themselves, which is absolutely fine. But I think it's nice for people to feel that they can.

And I think that's what sometimes missing is that you don't know if you can show up as your authentic self because you're worried about what people might say or how it might be perceived and that kind of stuff.

Or how it might create a ceiling for you.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, exactly. There's that. Oh, there's that as well. Yeah.

So anyway, putting the conversation together.

Yeah.

So for an employee, we are going to ask about SISU in a minute, but sisu, putting the conversation together. So you're suddenly listening to this. You're a manager who totally believes that we could be more inclusive.

Yeah.

I need to understand equality, equity a little bit more. What could you do? How can they get in touch with you? Maybe? How can they start that process?

I would say the first question is ask better questions of yourself, of your team. Not, like, how diverse are we, but maybe how do our people feel here, working here?

If our team are going to talk about working here and what it feels like working here, what are they telling their friends, that's the first question.

I think sometimes we do this work in silo at this leadership level and we forget that the teams are the ones that are going to be impacted the most and we don't bring them on the journey and ask them how and what they want to see more of.

So my first thing is always to just ask the team, speak to your team, get to know your team a bit more and then, yeah, of course, contact me because we can support with that.

But no, I think it's less about edi, more about just talking about the people experience, which is where SISU comes in is because, you know, when we're not just talking about EDI anymore, it's about the whole experience. It's about every point in which your employee, your team member touches the touch point that they have within your business.

How is that making them feel and is that enjoyable? Is that safe? Is that, has that got equity in it? And how do we make it better?

And how do you ensure that people aren't just turning up to work surviving, but they are actually thriving? And that's like our, that's our new tagline at cc. We just basically say that all the time. Are your teams just surviving or are they thriving?

And it's so easy to sort of underestimate the power of this.

It's like the great irony of management is the more experienced you get as a manager, the longer it's been since you've not been a manager, since you've been part of a wider team. You know, like the higher up you get in an organization, typically, you know, that lonely at the top cliche.

The higher up you get, the less peers you have.

Yeah, right.

It is an invert, you know, it's a pyramid. Right.

And yeah, as you, you know, as you get more and more experience, you forget like what it's like to not have control of those and over the control over those environments. Right.

I do think that leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating the space for everyone else around you to grow and to, and to nourish them and to learn from them as well.

And I think where leadership has probably struggled with this work is that sometimes, and this is a very sweeping statement, but I think sometimes as leaders, if we don't know enough about the work ourselves, we then sometimes shy away from wanting to do the work within the business because you're like, I don't know what this can is going to open, I don't know what's going to come out of it.

I don't know what's going to want like what's going to come out and where it's going to lead us and if we're going to get into trouble for certain things. And I remember speaking to a leader that I worked very closely with recently and he was, he was so open.

He was like I don't know a nit about this stuff really. And that's why I've come to you because you're the expert.

I want to learn alongside my team and I think sometimes leaders feel like stupid that they don't know the answers before their team may be answers but there is something really powerful about a leader taking down the armor and being authentic and being really vulnerable and going I don't know the same way you don't know. So we're going to learn together and I'm going to do my best to make sure that this place that we're working is, is the best for you.

So you talked about this is sisu, this is talking about this is sisu. How do people get hold of you?

So SISU is the people Experience Agency.

We focus on growth, culture and well being and we are contactable via air pigeon like all the socials is this is SISU or you can contact me on LinkedIn or via email.

If you search for SISU on all platforms you'll be able to find us and we're just, you know what for us it's more about start the conversation and see how we can support you and if we can't support you, maybe you can do it all on your own then that's absolutely fine.

But it does start with a conversation and sometimes it's just about spitballing ideas and seeing which one lands and we're really good at spitballing.

So we also have links on talkinghospitality.com and of course you can look up olajide on his guest profile on the website as well. So you can get called it him that way. Thank you so much for joining us. Very interesting. It's too short.

That was so short. I was like does he have got to say much more to say?

We'll save it for a second time!

A huge thank you to our brand partners Graphic Kitchen for their continued support of talking hospitality. Graphic Kitchen bring creative storytelling to life.

Helping hospitality brands stand out connects top talent with best opportunities in the industry making it the go to platform for hospitality careers.