Summary:

The holidays can provide a chance to reconnect with what truly matters, while also challenging our sense of peace and purpose. Dr. Marisa Mazza, a clinical psychologist specializing in anxiety and OCD, shares expert advice on managing stress, setting boundaries, and aligning with your values to create a meaningful holiday season.

Details:

In this episode of Meaning vs. Merit, host Dr. Maria-Christina is joined by clinical psychologist Dr. Marisa Mazza to explore how we can navigate the challenges of the holiday season while staying true to our values and creating meaningful experiences. From managing anxiety to setting boundaries with family members, Dr. Mazza offers practical tips for showing up in ways that align with what matters most to us.

The conversation dives into:

• How to identify your values and let them guide your holiday decisions.
• Tips for managing anxiety and difficult family dynamics.
• Tips on integrating humor to navigate complex interpersonal dynamics.
• How saying no can sometimes be the most meaningful choice.
• The importance of self-compassion and emotional safety when facing discomfort.
• Strategies for teens to make the most of their holiday break.

The holidays often test our ability to balance connection, expectations, and self-care. This episode is a reminder that living a values-driven life — even when it’s uncomfortable in the short term — can bring deeper joy, fulfillment, and meaning in the long run.

About Our Guest:

Dr. Marisa Mazza is a clinical psychologist, author of The ACT Workbook for OCD, and an expert in helping people face their fears while living a life aligned with their values. She is passionate about teaching valued-living and self-compassion and guiding others to thrive in ways that matter most.

Resources and Links:

• Learn more about Dr. Marisa Mazza and her work and sign up for her newsletter for updates on her upcoming self-compassion workshops at choicetherapy.net

Key Takeaway:

This holiday season, reconnect with what brings you meaning—even if it means setting boundaries, embracing discomfort, or prioritizing your emotional well-being. Meaningful living is about making conscious choices that align with your values.

Subscribe to Meaning vs. Merit to get notified when we release new episodes and join us in an ongoing intentional practice of finding meaning and balance in life.

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Meaning vs. Merit.

I am so excited to the holidays today with our guest, Dr. Marisa Mazza. She is a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating obsessive compulsive anxiety and related disorders. And her expertise lies in helping people face their fears and live a life that is full of meaning and aligned with their values.

She's even written a book about this titled, The ACT Workbook for OCD. And she's on the faculty at an OCD Institute, BTTi, where she teaches other therapists how to treat anxiety and intrusive thoughts. Today, I'm looking forward to hearing her tips for managing anxiety and living according to your values over the holidays, a time that can be fueled with challenging family and social dynamics.

This may be especially true in the United States this year following the recent presidential elections, which caught many family members and friends on opposite sides of a heated debate. Now we may be sitting next to them over the next few weeks and we're hoping Marisa can give us some tips for how to manage it skillfully and in a way that's consistent with our values. First, I want to invite you to please take a minute to rate, review, and subscribe if you like our show. Now.

Let's turn to Marisa. Thank you so much for being on our show.

Thank you so much for having me, Maria Christina.

We're really excited. So maybe we could start off with love to just get to know you a little bit and maybe hear a little bit about your journey.

Yeah.

Yes, I would love to share. I grew up in New York in an Italian-American household. My dad was born in Italy. My maternal grandfather was also born in Italy. And speaking of the holidays, for us, holidays was all about food and family. And as a child, I think it brought about so much joy and fun and excitement.

All

as an adult, it brings up anxiety and stress, but also moments of joy and fun. So I'm really excited to talk about this topic today because I know it has been personally challenging for me at times. And I also see it come up with my friends and family and clients. And before we get into that, you know, I am a psychologist and I've worked for many years and helping people.

really get clear on what their fears are, what their values are. And one of the things I enjoy most about working with folks is really seeing them thrive and live well and do the things that matter most to them.

I'm so excited to dig into this more. So actually, this topic came up because you and I were talking about both your work, which is so, so focused on what you just talked about, right? Like values, what's important to you. What I always talk about values with people is like, what gets you excited to get out of bed in the morning, right? Where you're not just saying, another day, right? But you're like really excited or something you're passionate about. want to

Mm-hmm.

you'll stand up for, right? And this is like so central to your work. I know we talk a lot about anxiety, intrusive thoughts, OCD, and those are all clinical terms, but at the end of the day, it's actually about living a life that you're gonna look back on that's full of meaning for you, right? It's like.

Absolutely, absolutely. Values are what give us that sense of purpose and bring us that sense of joy, the why in life. And I think as you mentioned, like with the elections and COVID and all these other stressors that can show up in life, it can be really easy to focus on those dim, dark times.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And values can really kind of shine a light on these other beautiful parts of the life too. And there's kind of a Buddhist concept that talks about, know, we want to notice both, right? Like we want to notice the struggle and the hard parts of life, but we also want to be able to hold and notice those beautiful parts of life. And I think values can help shine a light and bring our attention to those beautiful parts.

That's lovely. Yeah. It's funny you used a word that I use all the time. I'm always asking my clients and friends myself, what's your why behind doing this? Right? Like what's the why? So we can talk about the whys that might help us navigate us through the holidays. I just want to take a step back because kind of going back to the conversation you and I were having, in some ways for me, this whole podcast is about

Yes.

meaning and values, it's meaning versus merit, right? And it is, there's this focus on like achievement because, you know, I find that for a lot of people that I work with, it is one of the competing things with meaning and it's very hard for people to find a balance between the two. But in another way, it's so much a focus on meaning, right? And very often in life, I have found that

In conversations with people, there are many reasons why they're either not pursuing what's meaningful to them or they're finding some sort of obstacles in doing it. And so in a sense, this whole podcast is like fleshing out each one of those, right? All the different possible things, because it is kind of like a moment to moment. How do we in this moment live according to our values? And it may look really, really different in this moment versus another moment, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. think...

life is a constant adjustment. Like it's just a constant adjustment. I've been thinking about that idea of balance and I don't think it's actually realistic to find balance in a lot of ways. I feel like oftentimes we think of like outcome versus values or merit versus values.

you

And I think what I have found helpful is kind of taking a look at just how much time are we dedicating to each of these is one of the ways of thinking about it. But two, but what's underneath the merit? And I know you spoke a lot about that with Dr. Tompkins. And oftentimes there's some kind of value underneath it, whether it's directly or indirectly related to that outcome. But we do notice is that, you know, oftentimes merit is associated with the outcome. I want to achieve

you know, that salary, that raise, that type of job or this lifestyle, right? And I think that's one of the main differences too between merit and values is that while merit is outcome focused, values is a process focus, which is exactly what you're saying. How do I show up moment to moment in my life, right? When I'm going to sleep at night, putting my head down on my pillow.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

What's most meaningful today about how I lived and how I showed up? Because if I'm aiming for a certain salary or a certain job or a certain type of lifestyle and solely focused on that, I sort of miss the day-to-day interactions in my life. It's almost like going through life with the lights off in a way.

Mm-hmm.

Process-based living is much more about how do I show up? What's important to me in my day to day? So for example, is it about being present? Is it about being loving towards myself, towards the people I care about? Is it about courage? And one of the things I love about...

Act, acceptance and commitment therapy is that there are very specific exercises to do to get really clear on what are those values for me and how do I define those values and live them in my day-to-day life.

Yeah, you know, I hope everyone's listening to this and really pausing a minute to listen, because I think these are words that we can often say to ourselves, say to others. I know I say them all the time. Act is the main therapy I do as well, and I love it. And I don't think you can really do it without living it. And I'm listening to you. And there's so many things from what you said where I'm thinking.

Yeah, I really want to think about that again. you know, I think I can flush that out a little bit more. And so I hope everyone's listening because there's just so much gold here, The expression or the phrase you use, like as I put my head down on the pillow and I'm thinking, yes, when I put my head down, right? So there's lot here. Now, let me ask you, know, process-based living, and we can talk about like process versus outcomes.

Thanks.

Let me share something with you. I read something in the news. I got all fueled up, right? And it's funny, I'm actually not going to be having interactions with my family members where I might have some contentious views over the next few weeks. However, despite this, I have many arguments with them in my head.

Yes, they do live there too.

as if I were.

Like if I were at the table, this is what I would be saying, which is just like so funny. And I think, you know, I start to dissect it. Obviously, I'm a psychologist, right? And I'm noticing how outcome based it becomes because I want to win the argument, right? And everything else goes out the window and I'm like, but I'm right. And they can't possibly think that I'm not right.

Exactly.

Right.

I don't understand, help us out. Come on. What do we do? Obviously, I know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's clear that you're right. Yeah. mean, you know, I, one of my mentors, actually, we had a conversation about this during the last election. Not the most recent election, but

Yeah

And one of the things she said really stood out to me, and I actually think it's a big part of acceptance, which is getting really curious, right? So it's easy when folks make decisions we don't agree with or that like get us riled up, right? It's our natural default to kind of want to get into that like kind of judgmental defensive, like I'm right, you're wrong. How could you believe this? You shouldn't be thinking this way.

Right? It's our default to kind of judge and protect what we feel is right and hold dearly to our hearts. Because oftentimes it does link to our values in some ways. And yet one of the things to kind of think about is what is the cost of that stance? Right? Like what is the cost of that? Even if it's just in our minds and not at the dinner table, right? It's still sucking up our mental energy, our time gets in the way of being present with our families.

Right? And so one of the things I think about is like, does acceptance look like in those scenarios? Which could be like curiosity. And so one way of going about this is why would this person ever do this? Like they're clearly wrong. Another way to kind of look at it is I wonder what would lead to someone making that decision or making that choice or thinking that way.

What kind of experiences has that person had in their lives that has led to this point? And for me, that was really eye-opening because I actually think that that's where change happens, is when people come together and listen to each other and have that curiosity rather than that kind judgmental, kind of defensive stance.

it really can open up such beautiful conversations and foster like working together and coming to an understanding of how so many of us have had so many different experiences. And this is what leads to people having these different stance.

Okay, so I got a question, right, right. I got a question for you. I'm wondering if we can take, can step back a second as well, because I love what you're saying. I would espouse the same things and I hear the but, but, but right in my own mind. And so I'm wondering, can we step back and, and can you help us think about values, right? As we approach, not just this topic, like just

any sort challenging situations that they're, they may be more frequent over the next few weeks for some folks. And like you said, full of meaning as well and memorable moments. Like how can we even identify and get really clear about the values that can be guiding us? Cause I imagine part of the butt is that I've got some other values there, right? And so part of it is, is like a sort of which one's

overpowering the other in my mind. But first, before we even get into that conversation about what do we do if some of them may not feel aligned at the moment or, know, that's sort of a different one. How do we even know what our values are? That's a big question. Read her book. More details. Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's an excellent question. mean, and that's really a beautiful place to start is pausing and asking yourself, what is most important to me during this holiday season?

Right? If you know that politics is a hot button in the family, or if you know you have that family member that crosses boundaries, or that there are certain things you don't want your kids exposed to, or whatever it is.

those are okay and those are boundaries perhaps you have for yourself and linked to your own values. And I would also encourage you to pause and really ask yourself like what is most important to me during this holiday season? Right? And sometimes initially like a superficial kind of answer may pop up like lots of wine. And what I ask you is like go a little deeper.

Parties!

You might need to really reflect on this and ask yourself this a few times. And sometimes it can even be helpful to start with, what am I needing this holiday season?

Mm-hmm.

Right? What am I actually needing this holiday season? What is most important to me this holiday season? And so like one of the things that I've been reflecting on is connection is actually what's most important to me right now in this holiday season. And it's connection to people, but also connection to nature.

Mm.

Right? And so I'm trying to think about how can I spend, my kiddo has two and a half weeks off of school, right? How can I spend that time in a slow, nourishing, connected way? Like that's what's important to me. I want to be able to connect in nature, connect with my family, and also move a little bit slower than I typically do to feel nourished at the end of the holiday season rather than to feel that depletion.

you

Mm-hmm.

I think that's a beautiful first step. so values can look like love, kindness, connection, service, education. There's so many different ways, so many different values out there. And there's no right or wrong to your personal values. They are so unique to each person.

Yeah.

Right.

I actually do have a free version of a values card sort on my website, so if anybody wants to actually...

Mm-hmm.

really look at their values in a concrete way. There's a little card activity you can do to reflect on like right now, like what are the things that are most important to me in life? And so when you have that broader value in mind, like connection or nourishment, you can then take it a step further and ask yourself, well, if I'm sitting at the movies and there I am on the screen, living this value of connection and nourishment, what would I be doing? What would I be focused on?

Mm.

What would it look like? And so for example, for me, it would be like hiking in nature. Like I would be around trees with my family and we would be looking at things in nature. Like we would be touching the trees. We would be looking at leaves. Like that's one of the things. The other thing I think about is it would also be looking like spending time with family, eating things that we've made together. And so...

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

There's the of the broader sense of like, are the values that are important to me? But then there's also the values based behavior of how do I bring this to life? Like, what would it actually look like if I were to feel nourished and connected at the end of this holiday season? What would get me there?

Mm-hmm. So part of what you're saying is, let's get a really clear idea of what the things are that are important to us. And I do want to just say, because I always say this, that when we use the word values, we're not talking about religious values, just because sometimes it is associated, but more, what is it that you value in your life? What brings you meaning? So first, we want to get clear on that.

And then specific to the holiday seat, like just the next few weeks, right? Because it's a little bit, for some folks, they have time off, if they're celebrating anything, whether it's some holidays or the new year or whatever it is, right? So then get kind of clear because the values that might be guiding us on other days may not be the ones in those moments that we wanna really emphasize over the holidays, right? So yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, it may be. It's interesting because they have done some research on values across a lifetime and for the most part our values actually don't shift a whole lot throughout our lifetime. However, think given what we may be experiencing at any certain point and what we may be needing at any certain point, they can shift a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So for example, this is not for the record, what are my values? But if it were, you know, asserting, debating political views, and I don't know, like, you know, that's not my line of hobby or work. But if it were, I may also choose, I want to take a break from that right now. Or when I'm going into

Aunt Holly's Christmas dinner or whatever, maybe I don't want to lean into that value because I actually also want to be making memories with my kids and watch them as they're opening gifts and hanging ornaments. And that might actually overshadow the other one. Even if everybody were to agree with me, I don't know that that's where, when I look back on this moment,

Thanks.

Those aren't the memories I want to be looking back on. Yeah?

Absolutely. And what you're touching upon it is an excellent point. Like what you're referring to is like a conflict in values, right? That maybe then you do have a strong value associated with human rights or advocacy, right? And you know that people in your family, you know, aren't just aren't in line with what you feel is in line with that value, right? But you also value like close connected relationships with your family members. And so that's hard, right? Because they're both in your heart.

Mm-hmm.

you

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

These are both things that are important to you and give you meaning and purpose. And again, it doesn't have to be either or, right? If we were to zoom out and look at the broader picture of your life, taking a look at how much time are you spending on human rights and advocacy?

Mm-hmm.

and how much time are you spending on that connection with your family members? So you may choose not to focus on those values of human rights and advocacy at the dinner table because there will be a cost of connectedness within your relationship with your family members. But it doesn't mean that it's not important to you or you can't do that advocacy work in different ways in different contexts. Another example I have is like,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

My kiddo is six and I don't really like to expose him just yet to a ton of TV. We'll do a little bit of TV, but I'm particular about what he is exposed to. And I'm not really into video games at this point. However,

Mm-hmm.

I know that when we're at friends' houses or family members' houses that do allow their kids to maybe watch more different type of TV or play video games, it's hard for me.

because I know I would much rather him be spending that time connecting, being creative, running outside, but I also really value connected relationships. And so in those moments, I'll choose the connection, right, over those other values, knowing that there's always tomorrow where he can do those other things. So part of it is also like zooming out and looking a little bit at that bigger picture around

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It's not about which value do I live, it's about how much time am I dedicating to each of these.

Love it. Okay. I have a tough question for you. We've walked into the social setting. We're clear on our values and the memories we want to be making. And the bait is right there because not other, other people may not have the same values and a fight is waiting to get picked. Right? What do we do?

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So are we the ones that are having the urge to pick the fight or is somebody picking the fight with us?

No, someone's trying to pick it with us and we're like, no, I listened to Dr. Marissa. I am not. They really are.

They are poking the bear, right? They are poking the bear. I know a few of those. Yeah.

you

mean, we're laughing about this and a part of the reason why I think I'm laughing is because I'm literally thinking about uncomfortable situations I've been put in in those moments where it's like, I know I want to show up in this like peaceful kind way and yet this person is like really poking my hair and I just want to freak out on them. Right? And so,

Right? Exactly.

I mean, for me, it kind of goes back to that pause of like, let me pause, let me take a deep breath and feel my feet on the ground. Right? And how, how do I actually want to show up in this moment? And so I like to use humor, like, and sometimes a little bit of sarcasm in that humor to be like, I see what you're doing there, Uncle Bob, I know you want to poke me, and I'm not going to let you do that.

Mm.

Right? And maybe I'll give them a big old kiss on the cheek. Right? And so I like to kind of diffuse situations and like, like that, where knowing that like, you know, when my family members are on their rants or roller coasters on things, I don't have to get on that roller coaster, right? Like I can stand on the platform and kind of watch the roller coaster go by, but I don't necessarily have to get on. And for me,

You're.

Mm-hmm.

pausing and grounding, like taking a deep breath, feeling my feet on the floor, noticing the roller coaster going are ways to kind of help me detach from their process. And also reminding myself that like, yeah, I'm getting angry or getting riled up because these things are important to me. And it's a beautiful reminder of why I do that advocacy work outside of my family relationships.

Mm-hmm.

Right. That's beautiful. In essence, you know, taking a moment, grounding yourself so that you can choose how you want to show up as opposed to reacting in that moment and letting our emotions get the better of us.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think humor is actually a great way to kind of diffuse from it a little bit, right? Like, I see what you're doing, Uncle Bob, and I ain't going there. Yeah.

beautiful. I love humor. That was great. Absolutely. I love that example. I love that. Yeah. And you're also calling him out him Uncle Bob, right? But in a like, very effectively, because it's, it's the humor allows it to be graceful, right? So you can just very quickly bypass. That's beautiful.

Yeah, yes. And when we don't give the person the reaction that they're hoping for, they realize it doesn't work. Right? So I feel like they're less likely to continue poking as well.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right, right. All right, different question. I'm gonna kind of turn it around because there are also a whole lot of folks out there that want to avoid conflict at all costs. I think so much of what you've been talking about requires flexibility, which is something I know Dr. Tompkins was talking about. flexibility is a learned skill.

Yes.

Right? And a practice very much. And I think one that a lot of folks have not necessarily had so much practice in. Not touching your toes, that's a different kind that a lot of us don't have flexibility with either. But being able to move between different values in that moment that are driving us, different emotions, different even ways of thinking, we...

Thanks

Right.

Thank

fall into these patterns and end up being quite rigid without even, you know, even without having a rigid personality, but without realizing it, right? And I work so, so, so much with people who are people pleasers, right? Conflict avoidant. I see a lot of teenagers like that. And so, you know, I also think about

those folks as they go in and they may think their values and their identified values in those moment are like, I want lovely moments and I want everyone to think I'm kind, right? And there may be a place where there's some other values that they're not leaning into more out of fear than anything else, right? And so you're such an expert on

managing fear or facing fear and embracing values in that process. And so I'm really curious about that. One place to start might be, how do we know that the values we're identifying are not actually fear-based or that we might not be selecting some out of fear?

Hmm.

You might be. You might be. mean, this is a great question. We often refer to this as fear hijacking values, right? And I see this a lot of folks that are super smart and also perfectionistic. And when I'll do values exercises with them,

hahahaha

Mm-hmm.

they often will choose the success card. I've actually taken the success card out of the values deck. But your values are never, I wanna say, I would never tell someone their values are wrong.

Nice.

Mm-hmm.

What I notice is that over time, when folks are working on that flexibility as well as clarifying their values, that process will naturally unfold for them.

As a therapist, it's always very rewarding when a person recognizes like, I actually think perfectionism chose that outcome of success. And initially what success meant for me was making a certain salary. Now what success means for me is actually spending less time at work and more time being present with my family. Right? And so,

If you're not sure, right, if perfectionism or anxiety is choosing your values, one, it's okay to be confused. And two, like trust that it will unfold. And one of the things you can do to kind of help it unfold is spend some time, you know, reflecting on.

Mm-hmm.

What are my values? What would my value say here versus what would my anxiety or my perfectionism say here? So there's a little exercise I like to do with folks where if you were to close your eyes and kind of imagine that your fear and anxiety, something magical happened and your fear and anxiety were lifted up from you and sitting in the chair across from you, like what would your fear and anxiety and what would it look like? What form and shape would it take? What kind of

voice would it have? And imagine that image that being shrinking to like the palm of your hand and placing it on one shoulder, right? So you got your anxiety, let's call it anxious Fred, on one shoulder. And then doing the same thing for your values, thinking about like, what are your top five values? What are the things that are most important to you? Is it love? Is it kindness? Is it courage? Is it community?

Putting those together, if all of your values were together sitting across from you, what form or shape or image would they take? What voice, sound would it sound like? And if you were to shrink them down and have them on your other shoulder, Notice what it's like to go through your week with your values on one shoulder, your anxiety on the other shoulder, right? What do they say as you move through your day?

Right? And so when you're reflecting on what your values are, think getting curious, like, what would my anxiety say here? And what would my value say here? And if you are prone to like perfectionism, oftentimes the values are the same. It's just that you have to do it to, you know, 110th degree. And so in those cases, I encourage you to be extra kind, loving to yourself and focus on good enough.

Right, this goes back to that process versus outcome thinking that we were talking about earlier is that it's less about achieving something 100%.

And it's more about, I slow down and practice good enough? Instead of putting 110 % into this, can I lower it to 60 or 70 % of this? So that way I'm able to sustain my energy and my efforts and my motivation in the long term and not just dump all this energy into the short term, into this value at the cost of maybe my health, my wellbeing, or even neglecting other values.

Beautiful. So in terms of kind of practicing more authenticity and vulnerability and maybe speaking up and not being as conflict avoidant while still wanting to make memories that are meaningful, any tips for those folks that are wanting to do that?

Yeah, so.

When you think about, you know, if you are someone that avoids conflict, think thinking about what the cost of that is. Right. And oftentimes it brings up sadness for me when I think about this in my own life or when I'm working with clients, because it says though, they've learned that they're not worthy of having a voice. And that is really sad. Right. We're all worthy of a voice. We're all worthy of being seen and heard and loved.

And when we don't honor what we are needing, our own boundaries, our own values, it's like living small, right? And that's a cycle we are reinforcing.

Mm-hmm.

And while we can't control that initial cycle coming up, what we can do is notice it and choose to step beyond it. Right? So here I am noticing Uncle Bob just keeps poking me even when I set my limits. I'm trying with my humor and I'm trying. And what's getting in the way of me saying, Uncle Bob, I'm not having this conversation with you.

And oftentimes it's that fear of like, don't want other people to think I'm a bitch or other people to think, you know, think poorly of me. I want everybody to like me. And so it's good to notice what the cost is, what my fear is and what my values are. And a part of my values are self-love and kindness and values go bi-directionally towards others as well as towards ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

So if I were to show up in a loving and kind way towards myself and towards Uncle Bob, what would that look like? And it may mean setting a firm boundary, like I am not having this conversation with you, Uncle Bob. And knowing that I always have the option to leave. I always have the option to leave. I deserve that love and kindness too.

Hmm.

reminds me of that being flexible, right? Like you may go in with the idea that you're valuing making memories and connection. And then in a different moment while there, you actually may want to disconnect, right? And so being able to shift into that actually, now I'm aligning with something else that would be important to me in terms of how I want to show up and treat myself.

Correct, correct. It may have started with I just need to set a boundary and maybe you've done that and it hasn't worked and maybe you've tried that multiple times and it's okay to say, you know what, I'm gonna choose emotional safety at this point and leave. That's okay too.

Right. Right. And some folks may even turn down some invitations for similar reasons. Right.

Absolutely, absolutely, a part of values-based living is doing what brings you joy Right. So in the short term values-based living is often uncomfortable. It's doing the harder thing And so if saying no to something feels uncomfortable in the short term right

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

It may be a hint or a clue that this is growth, right? This is growth because values are about long term, right? In the short term, it may feel uncomfortable. You may be risking like people not liking you or people getting upset, but yet in the long term, is this how you want to live your holiday season? Right? Do you, will it help you be more peaceful and nourished and connected? Right? So you're choosing long term, even though it means in the short term, perhaps feeling uncomfortable.

and embracing the uncertainty and fears.

And it sounds like when you are living in accordance with your values, part of that includes taking care of yourself emotionally. Is that right? Would you agree? Because you mentioned in there,

you know, being flexible to be able to shift to another one, because now I need emotional safety, almost, I mean, that sort of assumes I suppose that that's a value, right? But there's some sort of self compassion, looking out for oneself that's aligned with all of this, would you agree?

Absolutely, absolutely. mean, I safety is a basic need that we all have, right? And that goes with physical safety as well as emotional safety. And a part of that is, you know, what reactions we get from others, but the other part of it is how we treat ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

And for those of us that perhaps grew up in families that were a bit chaotic for one reason or another, we may have learned to put aside our own emotional safety, our own needs, our own values, because space was never made for them before. And a part of self-compassion is slowing down

Mm-hmm.

noticing what you need and even asking yourself, that's an act in itself of self-compassion. What am I needing right now? And then following through with that need.

Mm-hmm. And that might be a nice place to start along with the values when we even think about the next few weeks, especially if folks have any time off. You know, what often happens is the invitations start rolling in and we may feel obliged to say yes to many of them or all of them. And before you know it, all the time is booked. And so perhaps before even looking at them, it's about

pausing, taking a moment and seeing what's important to me, what are my values, what are my needs, where am I right now, and consciously selecting how you want to spend the next few days, weeks, whatever you have. And that also takes assertiveness. So I suppose in some ways, you know.

there's an implicit value there or it's helpful to value that because maybe something doesn't fit in and then you have to be able to say, thank you so much. I don't have time for that this year, right? Which you may also compete with another value, but to really prioritize your own wellbeing.

Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think for a lot of us, it's easier said than done, right? Because in that short term, it's going to bring up those fears and that discomfort. And it's in those moments we need lots of love and compassion.

course.

And say even just saying something like it's okay that I feel uncomfortable or it's okay that I feel scared. Everyone feels uncomfortable and scared sometimes right like may I be kind to myself may I be loving to myself. That's an example of like a self compassion script. It's like in those moments, we need lots of compassion and love to help us set those boundaries.

Mm-hmm.

Right. It's one of the most common things I know I experience. hear from other people when we're traveling home, the home maybe where we grew up or spend a lot of time before, maybe for holidays and everyone wants to see us. Right. And before you know it, you're just back to back to back to back to back and you get home afterwards. You're you're now home.

And you're like, I need a vacation. I just took a vacation, I need a vacation. Because I just over committed myself because everyone wanted to see me and of course I wanted to see them but my gosh, I don't even think I had the vacation I wanted to have. Right? Because I was just saying yes to everyone. So being conscious of that in advance.

Vacation from the vacation. Absolutely. Yes.

Right, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And also just being kind to ourselves because sometimes we will choose to push through and do that because we know it's in the short term and we're just going to push through and see these people. And it's okay like that we did that because sometimes I think we end up beating ourselves up like what's wrong with me? Like, why did I do that? Right. And it's okay. Like life is messy. We're messy as human beings. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to fail. Right. But maybe a gentle question to get curious about is, okay, well, next trip.

How can I make it just a little bit nourishing, like more nourishing for myself? Like, can I just invite everyone to my place or to my hotel or wherever I am to see me rather than me running all over to see them, right? Or can I book like a hike or a spa day with my girlfriends to make it a little bit more nourishing and grounding for me or?

Hmm.

Maybe I can extend my trip by a few days and not tell anybody. Go do something that's a little bit more grounding for me before I leave.

Beautiful. this is such wisdom. Thank you. I love it. I can't wait to implement all of it. I always ask a question because I work so much with teenagers and love teenagers. Do you have any specific advice for teenagers related to holidays? How are we going to get through this next, the break? Thank goodness we got a break. So many of them are saying, but any advice for them?

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I like to really encourage them to also think about how do you want to spend this break, right? Like, what's going on for you? I've worked with some teens that are really looking forward to the break and just chillaxing at home. I've worked with other teens that really have some chaos happening in the home and they don't want to be on break.

And so I think it goes back to asking teens, whether it's our child or if we're a therapist working with a teen, is really asking them, what are you needing this holiday season? And how can we try to get some of that into the schedule? If you don't like being at home or the holidays, how can we make sure that you're seeing friends?

maybe you take some kind of art class or do something that you know will be helpful for you. And if you're one of those folks that just wants to chillax, but yet you have a mom or a dad that's making you do all these things you don't want to do, maybe we can help advocate or help them learn how to set boundaries or speak up for some of their needs by either role playing it with us in the session or.

If we know parents are going to say no, just holding that space of like, sucks, right? It sucks that you have this need and you're unable to get it met in this way. Just that validation alone, I think is immensely, immensely helpful. And teens are great at humor often. So we can also use a little bit of humor in that process too of like, what would it be like to say, nah, dad, I'm not going on that fishing trip. It's just too smelly for me.

Yeah.

I

You know?

Yeah, I like that. This is great. I'm already thinking about all the things we can pick your brain about and the next time we have you on our show, there's so much.

I'd love to be back. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, it's a privilege to be here and I so appreciate what you're doing on this podcast. I think it's a wonderful gift to everyone. So thank you. And I wish you, your family and everyone listening like a beautiful, peaceful holiday season, whatever that means for you.

Thanks for being here.

Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

You too. Thank you. And let me ask before we wrap up, anything else you want to share with our listeners? Anything about yourself? Any projects you're working on?

Well, I mean, we did speak a bit about self-compassion and it is something that I'm very excited about and I've had some specialized training in a couple of different self-compassion models from mindful self-compassion and compassion focused therapy.

Yes.

And in this upcoming year, I'm looking forward to just doing a lot more workshops for the public, for therapists, for moms who hold a special place in my heart on how to build those loving skills towards ourselves. Right? Because I feel like most of us have not learned how to treat ourselves as a friend. And it's so, so, so immensely important, especially when we're feeling things like fear.

I love it.

Cool, will have your info at the bottom of the podcast site for this episode,

we can get on your newsletter so that we can get all this information and sign up for the workshops. I'm so glad I asked and I'm really excited. You're talking about moms and you're saying overcoming fear and I'm also like, and sleep deprivation, right? And just the constant giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, just never ends. It's really, really hard to take a moment.

yes. Yes.

Yes.

No.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So I'm so glad you're offering it. Thank you, Marisa, for being on our show. And we will have you back. So to be continued.

Thank you so much.