Beneath the Surface: Dr. Amani's Journey from The Cave

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Email: elemental.evanhw@gmail.com

CONNECT WITH DR. AMANI BALLOUR

Dr. Amani's Book:

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/739451/the-cave-by-amani-ballour-rania-abouzeid/

Nat Geo's Documentary on The Cave (Available on Hulu at time of recording)

https://films.nationalgeographic.com/the-cave

Dr. Amani's Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/amani_ballour/

In this episode of the Elemental Evan podcast, Evan dives into a heart-wrenching yet inspiring conversation with Dr. Amani Bollore, a pediatrician, activist, author, and the first woman to serve as hospital director in war-torn Syria. They discuss her incredible journey of managing an underground hospital, known as 'The Cave', to save lives amidst bombings and attacks. The hospital's story and Dr. Amani's bravery are documented in the Hulu documentary and her book titled 'The Cave'. Dr. Amani shares the harrowing challenges faced, including dealing with chemical attacks, lack of medical supplies, and societal pressures in a male-dominated environment. Despite the despair, she highlights the importance of hope, community, and the global responsibility to support those in need. The episode encourages listeners to practice gratitude, educate themselves on global issues, extend help to others, and appreciate the relentless efforts of medical professionals worldwide.

00:10 Introducing Dr. Amani: A Trailblazer in Syria

02:08 The Importance of Gratitude and Global Solidarity

05:20 Dr. Amani's Journey: From Medical Student to Hospital Director

11:03 Challenges and Triumphs of Leading 'The Cave' Hospital

18:44 The Harrowing Reality of Chemical Attacks and the Fight to Save Lives

28:58 The Harsh Realities of War and Personal Struggles

29:24 Life in the Hospital and the Impact of Massacres

29:47 The International Community's Inaction and Its Consequences

30:57 Transitioning to a New Life and Continuing the Mission to Help

33:53 The Struggle for Food and Survival

37:14 Building a Community Among Medical Professionals

40:17 Providing Hope and Support to Children Amidst War

42:14 The Importance of Telling the Untold Stories

44:55 How to Support Syrian Refugees and the Importance of Global Community

50:21 Staying Hopeful for Syria's Future and Final Words of Wisdom

DISCLAIMER:

This podcast is for educational purposes only, it is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. Evan Roberts is not a medical professional and this podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. Statements and views expressed on this show are not medical advice, this podcast, including Evan Roberts and any guests on the show, disclaims responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained in this episode. If you think you have a medical problem please consult a medical professional.

Hey, how's it going everybody.

2

Welcome to the elemental Evan podcast.

3

This is your host, Evan Roberts.

4

And on this podcast, I break down

health topics from a holistic

5

and simplified perspective.

6

However, on today's episode, we are

going to shift slightly because we are

7

joined by a truly astounding guest.

8

Dr.

9

Amani Bollore.

10

Sure.

11

Now there is a ton to say about Dr.

12

Amani, but honestly, I'm just going

to let the episode do the talking

13

and give you a quick idea of who Dr.

14

Amani is.

15

So for starters, she's a pediatrician,

an activist as well as an author,

16

but more importantly, she was the

very first woman to hold the position

17

of hospital director in Syria.

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And more importantly, it wasn't just

any old hospital, but rather it was

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the hospital referred to as the cave.

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Now it's referred to as the cave,

because it is literally underground.

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They had to do this because it was

just too dangerous to have a hospital

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above ground due to a lot of the

bombings that were taking place

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during the time that she was in Syria.

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Now Dr.

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Ramani has both a documentary that

is on Hulu and it was produced by it.

26

National geographic titled the cave.

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If you haven't already gone and watched

the documentary, I highly recommend

28

that you do it is a great way to get

a brief insight into what was going

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on at the time and covers a bit more

about what the cave was and all of the

30

events that kind of took place there.

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If you want a deeper look into Dr.

32

Amani story, as well as the cave,

which I highly recommend, then you

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can also read her book, the cave, uh,

secret underground hospital and one

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woman's story of survival in Syria.

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This book goes much, much deeper

into all of the fine details of the

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events that took place while Dr.

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Amani was out there.

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It is pretty heart-wrenching,

I'm not going to lie.

39

There's some really difficult parts to

read in there but it is so important for

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us to stay up to date and educated on

these events that are occurring globally.

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So for this episode, I wanted to

touch on a few quick points that

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were things that kind of a rose for

me during both the actual filming of

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this podcast episode, but also in the

research I was doing leading up to

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the episode and that was first off.

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If you haven't practiced gratitude today,

then please go ahead and do so, because I

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promise you life can be so much worse and

so much more difficult than it already is.

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So please, if you haven't already, please

take a moment to find some gratitude,

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even for the small things in life.

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Maybe it's just a little

bit of food on the table.

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Maybe it's the roof over your head, your

friends, your family, your loved ones.

51

Uh, maybe it's just being able to

go outside and enjoy some sunshine.

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It can be very simple things, but please

practice some gratitude today because I

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promise you there are so many things in

our life that we can be grateful for.

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Number two is going to be two.

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Educate ourselves.

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And to extend a hand out to our neighbors.

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Right.

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And I mean, literally our neighbors next

door, as well as our neighbors globally.

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Right.

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Because we are a very connected world,

uh, being that we have the ability to

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communicate with each other so easily.

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And, you know, we can see all the

different events that are going on,

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and it really is just a great practice

for us to extend a hand out to our

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neighbors and, you know, really offer.

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Offer, even if it's just time or help,

uh, doing very little things, maybe it's

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even just being nice to our neighbors.

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Right.

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Uh, showing a smile,

making them feel welcomed.

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It's the little things that we can do to

really help each other out and make this

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world a bit more peaceful and enjoyable.

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Remember, Gandhi did say be

the change that you wish to

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see, and it is so true because.

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At the end of the day, the

only thing that we can control

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is ourselves and our actions.

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So please, if you haven't already show

some compassion for others around you,

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and if you can help out others across

the globe, either with your time or

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your money or whatever, it may be.

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Then please go ahead and do so as well.

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And last, but not least if you

know a medical professional,

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please show them some love as well,

because it is a very difficult job.

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And, you know, medical professionals

truly do the best that they can.

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And, you know, they work super hard

and long hours and they're doing.

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Really some amazing work to try

to keep us all healthy and safe.

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So please, if you know a

medical professional, go ahead,

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shoot them a text message.

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Give them a call, give them a hug and

just let them know that you appreciate

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all of the work that they're doing.

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And without further ado, let's just go

ahead and jump into today's episode,

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which is once again, going to be a little

bit different than the normal episodes

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that we have on here, but nonetheless,

it's going to be a really impactful one.

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So I hope you all enjoy and have some

major takeaways from today's episode.

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Let's go ahead and get into it.

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Let's welcome Dr.

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Amani.

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Hi, Dr.

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Amani.

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Thank you very much for

joining me on today's episode.

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How are you doing today?

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Hi.

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Thank you for having me.

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I'm doing well.

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Thank you.

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Awesome, Dr.

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Amani.

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Well, hey, I like to, uh, Usually, just

dive right into the episode and I think

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for today's episode, it would probably

be a good idea to provide the listeners

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with a little bit of a background on,

uh, both the situation in Syria as

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well as, uh, your role as the first

woman, uh, to be Hospital director of

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a hospital known as the cave in Syria.

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Um, if you wouldn't mind providing

a little bit of background just

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to catch everybody up to speed

on that, that would be amazing.

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Well, yeah, the the Syrian revolution

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like a peaceful protest in the street.

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Like many, many Syrian people

start this demanding human rights,

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demanding democracy and dignity.

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Uh, in Syria, I think.

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People don't know we have a dictator

and he's now the president for

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like, uh, now 42, uh, uh, 24 years.

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And his father was before

him for like 30 years.

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So, uh, you know, we have no elections,

no democracy, and the people are really

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oppressed and we can't talk a word

about freedom, about human rights.

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So, yeah, just saying people

wanted to ask about their rights.

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That's why it started in 2011.

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I was in, uh, I was studying medicine.

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I was in my fifth year

at the medical school.

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And yeah, immediately after the protest

started, the dictator, the president,

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Bashar al Assad and his regime

started to shoot people, to kill them.

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And then they started to, to bomb,

uh, targeted the cities everywhere,

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uh, the cities, which, uh, has the

protest and to, to bomb, to, to kill

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everyone, to destroy everything.

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Uh, the Syrian regime with

its allies, Russia and Iran.

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So, yeah, they started to do this

using all the types of weapons.

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I was just a medical student and I

wanted to do something to help my people.

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I saw the innocent people were being

killed, the children, the women.

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So I decided, uh, I graduated

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I was dreaming to study pediatrics

and just, I, I started studying

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pediatrics for one month, two months.

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You know, the bombing and everything

start to be in my city in my town.

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So I decided just to stay

there to help the people there.

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Then the Syrian regime besieged us,

besieged the cities and the town.

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So we were like half a million people

in a place in countryside of Damascus.

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They besieged us and they prevent

at the beginning food and medicine,

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and then they prevent everything.

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No one can go.

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In or out, and that lasted

for more than six years.

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Of course, we didn't expect

this, but it was very hard time.

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Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, definitely a

difficult, uh, difficult reality for

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sure, and, you know, watching a lot of

it on the documentary, uh, of yours,

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The Cave on Hulu was, uh, yeah, it's a

hard thing to watch, uh, let alone to

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obviously live through, so, um, yeah,

I know there's a lot to unpack there

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for sure, but one thing I wanted to

start off with was, uh, Did you, did

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you want to be the hospital director or

was that something that was just kind

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of thrown upon you by everybody else?

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Well, let me first tell

you about the cave.

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Uh, the Syrian regime started to

target hospitals from the beginning,

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so they destroyed many hospitals.

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near us.

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That's why we moved to work underground

in the basements, you know, anywhere,

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uh, hiding places or somewhere.

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So we moved underground.

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We found a basement.

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It was just two rooms at the beginning.

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Then we expanded, you know,

year after year, we make it

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a big hospital underground.

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And we also, we met people.

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tunnels to connect the hospital

with other places from underground,

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because it was hard to move on the

ground because of the heavy bombing.

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Uh, I started working in this hospital

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I know the hospital.

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I know what we need.

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I know.

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I mean, I know.

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Maybe I have plans and, you know,

opinion about how we can develop it.

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What exactly we need.

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And you know, I was a doctor

like other doctors who started

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to manage this hospital.

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So I believe that I can do something

to improve this hospital, develop

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it, make everything better.

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You know, I have plans and

I believe that It's fine.

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I mean, there's nothing can,

you know, prevent me off being

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the manager of this hospital.

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So there were like, we, we made like

their elections, but small elections.

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We were like 12 or 13 doctors and

we choose the manager between us.

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So, uh, one of the doctors say

that I believe that you can do it.

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I'm Annie.

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So why you don't, uh, nominate yourself.

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And I said, Yeah, I can.

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I think I can do it.

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And and I did.

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And yeah, my colleagues chose me to be

the manager for the beginning six months.

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Then they wanted me to stay for

more six months and then for a year.

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So I stayed like a manager for two years

before we forced to leave the area.

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Yeah.

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And on that note, what kind of

difficulties were, were you experiencing

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during that time as the director of the

hospitals, especially being, um, you know,

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a woman in a traditionally man's role?

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Like what, uh, what kind of comfort, like,

yeah, confrontations from people did you

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receive or just difficulties in general?

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Did you experience?

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Well, everything was, you know, difficult.

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Everything was a challenge, uh,

starting from being a manager of a

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hospital in a war zone, besieged area.

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There's no resources, not enough food.

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No medicine, no medical supplies.

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Everything was prevented.

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We have like these tunnels to to

connect us with Damascus city.

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So we tried many times, you know, to

smuggle some food, some medicine, some

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medical devices sometimes, but still,

you know, lack of everything, lack

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of the, for example, diagnosis tools.

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So the patients and

everyone were suffering.

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to have the resources at the beginning.

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Second, I can talk about the protecting

the hospital and the health workers

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because we were a target for the bombing

for the Syrian regime and Russia.

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And although we were

underground, but it wasn't safe.

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I mean, and in 2015, they

targeted our hospital.

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It was underground, and they

targeted us that the muscle.

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We're underground and explode.

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Explode.

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I mean, I was sitting with my

colleagues, three off them.

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And when the muscles that I just

went to the emergency room and

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then the bump happened and it

killed three off my colleagues.

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So, and it destroyed part of the hospital,

so it wasn't safe working underground.

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This was also a challenge to protect

this hospital, to protect, you know,

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the ambulance, to protect everyone.

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Also, that was a challenge.

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And besides all these challenges, I mean,

I was a woman, so many of my community men

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criticized me just because I was a woman.

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I was just starting to manage the

hospital and they start, you know, to

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say, like, don't we have enough men

to bring this woman to be a manager?

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They remember the young man.

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He was, he was educated.

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He was my colleague and my friends

before I start to be a manager.

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And he said, uh, we have

no problem with you.

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Uh, you are our colleague, but we

don't want a woman to be our manager.

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So, you know, that was really frustrating

for me to hear this from a colleague of

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mine, from a young man, from educated man.

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So that was really, you know,

I mean, it's bad to hear this,

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but it was like, it pushed me to

approve that we can do something.

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I have to do something in this position,

because if I fail, they will say

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this about all the women in the area.

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I was the first woman to

manage like a hospital in a war

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zone in these circumstances.

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So I decided.

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That I have to succeed and I

tried, you know, do my best to

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make this hospital continue It was

the central hospital in the area.

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And yeah, thank God it was it was good.

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It stayed for Last time for the

last time before we left After many

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hospitals, underground hospitals

were destroyed by bombing and our

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hospital stayed and we had good, you

know, medical supply and medicine.

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It wasn't enough, of course, but it was

good, you know, to help many people.

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And it was protected because

we make this tunnels.

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We had this place.

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Plan to to protect it.

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We have, you know, the

available resources.

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We put, like, many, uh, backs off

sounds on the hospital on the place

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above the hospital to protect it.

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And that was, you know, I can

say partially it was good.

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So yeah, we stayed.

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We worked to the last minute.

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And after this, I remember like many of

the men who criticized me, many of them

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came to me and they said, You were good.

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You did a great job.

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I was very happy to do this.

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I can say like it.

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It was a winning for many

women, not only for me.

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So that was very happy moment

to hear this from them.

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Yeah, yeah, and I applaud you for sure,

because it's not an easy task for anyone

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to do and, uh, I'm, I, I believe, you

know, from at least from what I've

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seen and, and from, you know, reading

your book, like you, you definitely put

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your heart and soul into it and, uh,

that's, that's all anyone can ask for.

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So, um, yeah, you definitely

did, did the best that you

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absolutely could with what you had.

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And, um, on that note as well, the reason.

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You were evacuated out from the hospital

was, was it because the Russians had

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said that they were going to like

bomb specifically this, uh, the cave?

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Was that the reason for, for leaving?

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They really started bombing the whole

area where, as I said, like half a million

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people in the area with so many hospitals.

279

They started this like military campaign.

280

It was very, very heavy bombing.

281

Every second, every minute, they

tried to bomb the hospital many times.

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The missiles were, you know, falling

around us and next to us many times.

283

And they started, you know, to come

close and close to our hospital.

284

So, you know, everyone, when they

get closer to them, just flee.

285

And all these people and all, you

know, in the area we went, we stayed

286

only in, like, two small towns.

287

Everyone all the people who were

fleeing, you know, from the Syrian

288

regime and from the Russian.

289

It was like, I can say it was a

Russian campaign, actually, the Russian

290

military campaign and the leader who

make the negotiation with the people.

291

He was a Russian leader.

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So he said, as I heard from my

colleague, one of my colleagues

293

were in this negotiation and he

said, just he said, you can leave.

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We allow you to leave

or we kill all of you.

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And you know, really, they killed

many people at this campaign.

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It lasted for one and a half month

and they killed many, many people.

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And I remember just a day before we leave

the hospital, there were a big massacre

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when they told the people in the area

that there's some food or someone selling

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food on the main street in my town.

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And people were sitting underground,

hiding without food for a few days.

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So many people go there.

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They believe this and they think

that they will get food, you

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know, for their Children and their

families and the war blend targeted

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them and killed many, many people.

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I remember many people.

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They were just in the ground, the

ground in the hospital on the corridors

307

bleeding and we were just watching.

308

I mean, we can't help one tooth, but

not, you know, they were they were

309

just in the ground, but not, you

know, they were just in the ground.

310

Nearly, maybe 100, 200, like, I can't

remember, but yeah, that was horrible.

311

You know, we wanted to

stay in our country.

312

We don't want to leave.

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I mean, no one like to leave

their countries, but we, you know,

314

after all this, we had to leave.

315

So they brought a buses for us and

they send us to the north of Syria.

316

This area is out of the

Syrian regime control.

317

And you mentioned the, you know,

this massacre that took place.

318

Um, not to mention the countless

other bombings as well as the use

319

of chemical, chemical warfare.

320

Um, you know, how, how do you even assess,

All of these people, when they start

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flooding into the hospital, like what,

what's the first process that you're going

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through when, especially with the chemical

warfare, where you don't even know what's

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wrong with these people that are coming

in, like, what are, what are the first

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steps that you take to try to assess the

situation and to get a hold on things?

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Well, the first chemical attack

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13.

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And we were just, you

know, started the hospital.

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It was a small hospital at the beginning.

329

We were some doctors like few

doctors, some volunteers and many of

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the medical staff were volunteers.

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Actually, many, many doctors

left the area before the siege.

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When the bombing started,

they start to flee.

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So yeah, we were few doctors.

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I mean, I was just graduated.

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I graduated in 2012.

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I had no experience.

337

Um, and you know, I remember that night

when I was sleeping during the night.

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It's nearly 1am or 2am when I started

not to hear this noise and I went to the

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hospital after when I started my book

writing about this because it was the

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worst thing I ever, you know, witnessed.

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And yeah, I went to the hospital to see

like many, many people on the ground.

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Inside the hospital and on the

ground out of the hospital, like

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many people and many of them were

just dead and others were moving.

344

They just, you know, they don't,

I mean, don't speak, don't cry,

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just suffocating and moving many,

many children among these people.

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And, you know, when people

suffocating, it's emergency case.

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So all of them were emergencies.

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They need very, you know, care.

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Fast help.

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And we were just a few doctors.

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I remember just trying to pass

between these people to go inside

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the hospital to know what to do.

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And I remember to see my

colleague, other internal doctor.

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And I asked her, what do

you do for these people?

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I mean, how will you do?

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And she said, just we give them atropine.

357

And, you know, we just we didn't

know what happened for them.

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We didn't know.

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It was like chemical.

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We said, like, maybe the in her

chemical, but what kind of chemical,

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you know, material we didn't know.

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So we knew later it was sorry,

but it was like a shock for us.

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And I started just to do what I can do.

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I just sit between these guys.

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people in somewhere.

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I just to sit there and start to

give a tropine to, you know, to

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just suck the, you know, the form

bitten from their mouth and nose.

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It was, you know, horrible.

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We had no plan to deal with this.

370

We, I mean, I have no

training to deal with this.

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Other doctors also.

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The doctors who are specialists older

than me, they don't know what is this,

373

I mean, what kind of chemicals is this,

how we should to deal with it, but we

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just started to work, you know, as a

doctor to, you know, to save the lives.

375

I mean, it was horrible.

376

Many people died that night.

377

Like they said, like the numbers

is of course not accurate number.

378

They said 1500 people died and

many of them were Children.

379

I remember, you know, working

with the Children that night they

380

were suffocating in front of me.

381

If I help a child, the other

child immediately died, you know,

382

have only like a few minutes.

383

to help someone who's suffocating.

384

So it was very, very hard.

385

And I still, you know, feel guilty

because I didn't help everyone.

386

I mean, yeah, I said, why I chose

this child, not the other child.

387

I mean, yeah, it's hard to remember also.

388

That's why writing this book,

it was very, very hard choice.

389

And I think a lot before, I mean, I

said, do I, I have to tell this story.

390

Remember everything with the details

all the massacres, which would have

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been before this chemical attack.

392

And after this many attacks happened, they

use the chemical weapons again and again.

393

So, yeah, it was hard, you know,

choice to me that I won't do it again.

394

to tell this story.

395

But I felt that it's a responsibility

to tell about the victim's story.

396

Tell about them.

397

They were innocent.

398

They deserve better life.

399

These Children, they have dreams.

400

They were hungry.

401

They were afraid, and they just,

you know, died in this way.

402

So I I think that they

deserve to tell their stories.

403

Yeah, and the chemical.

404

Sorry, I kind of missed the chemical

you mentioned that was used.

405

It But it specifically targets the

lungs and and causes suffocation.

406

Is that typically what

that that chemical does?

407

Yeah, it's setting as people inhale it and

it's a fucked it Yeah, it's suffocating

408

them and it targets also the nerves.

409

So it makes you know people like

to Paralyzed, so they were just

410

on the ground with, you know, cold

bodies, dark lips and with the form.

411

So we didn't know what is this.

412

Some of them were like moving.

413

I'm not sure like it was like a scissors

or something, but they were just moving

414

like this and they were in conscience.

415

So that was very hard to deal with it.

416

And when, when you were in that situation,

what kind of mindset did you have to

417

get yourself into to not just freeze in

shock of What's going on, but rather to

418

take action and make sure that you're

doing whatever that you, you possibly

419

can, like, how do you, what, what, yeah,

what kind of a mindset did you have to

420

get yourself into, uh, because I know

so many people in a, in a situation,

421

you know, not even nearly half as bad

as that, uh, they tend to freeze up,

422

um, how did you get yourself to, to jump

to action and, and move and do things?

423

Exactly.

424

It was like very hard.

425

I went first when I see everyone on

the ground, like I thought I just I

426

was sleeping because I just, you know,

woke up and went to the hospital.

427

I mean, is it a dream or

nightmare or something?

428

And then I look for everyone.

429

It's real.

430

It happened.

431

And I see one of my colleagues also

just was standing and talking and

432

couldn't working and do anything.

433

I looked at the Children next

to me and I see this child.

434

I remember it wins.

435

two girls next to each other.

436

They were suffocating and

I looked exactly to them.

437

I tried to focus on them and I

said, Oh, they, they need help.

438

You know, I have a job to do

and they sit next to them,

439

started to working, helping them.

440

And I started just to focus on my

job, not to think about anything else.

441

I mean, it's very hard, but it's possible.

442

And I started working with these kids.

443

And then, you know, to the, another And

other kids next to me and other kids and

444

some people bring kids to me because they,

they know that I was studying pediatrics.

445

So they said, this is a pediatrician.

446

She can help.

447

I tried, you know, just to focus, you

know, in just small area next to me.

448

And to try to help everyone I didn't cry

and I just focused very much on what I'm

449

I have to do What we have like what the

medicine that we have we had no enough

450

oxygen and that was very hard to deal with

That's why many people died that night So

451

yeah, I just try to be focusing and this

way, like the whole night, you know, best.

452

And, uh, I remember like, I just, when,

when I really woke up and start to think

453

about this, maybe after three days.

454

But now I can think more

and more about this.

455

I can't blame myself because

I didn't help everyone.

456

I think about, you know,

these, uh, these feelings.

457

It's, you know, very hard and

I'm really happy because I didn't

458

think about this when I was there.

459

So I could, you know, help or

do something to help people.

460

Yeah.

461

Yeah.

462

And, and You know, definitely.

463

I mean, easier said than done, but

of course you can't blame yourself.

464

You did the absolute best that you could,

you know, and, and it's easy to look

465

back and be critical on ourselves, but,

uh, of course you did absolutely the

466

best that you could with what you had.

467

Um, in terms of the aftermath

of these events, did you.

468

Did you have a process where when you

finally were able to go home from the

469

hospital, uh, you know, did you have a

process where you would try to de stress

470

or stop thinking of the events of the day?

471

Like, was there any practices that

you were using to try to just kind of,

472

yeah, decompress and unload and not

internalize all of the events of the day?

473

There were no time to do

anything for yourself there.

474

You know, after this massacre, it was

at night and in the morning, the Syrian

475

regime targeted a hospital next to us.

476

They bombed it and they kill some

people and they affected the hospital.

477

So they brought the

casualties to our hospital.

478

I remember like three or four people.

479

They were, you know,

bleeding and have injuries.

480

So we have, you know, we

just work day after night.

481

I mean, we, I didn't remember just Because

that we were underground so many, many

482

times we don't know it's a day or a

night, you know, it was, you know, hard

483

to think about ourselves or how it's hard

to think about other people feelings.

484

And this is also something

sometimes I blame myself about it.

485

I remember that woman who asked me

in the midst of this massacre, the

486

chemical massacre, she asked me to

go with her to see her Children.

487

And she said she had to see three

children and they, they were, you know,

488

they died in this chemical attack.

489

So just she wants some

support from me or something.

490

And she said they died, come

to see them because she know

491

that I, I knew her children.

492

I couldn't go with her.

493

I, you know, I have job to do.

494

So there's something.

495

Yeah.

496

I mean, more important to do to save the

other lives, people who are still alive.

497

So yeah, I also blame myself how

I didn't care about her feelings.

498

A mother just lost her three children.

499

Can you imagine this?

500

So yeah, of course I didn't think

about myself and I didn't have time.

501

It's just working.

502

And I don't remember, I

don't go a lot to my home.

503

I mean, I spent most of

my time in the hospital.

504

We have massacres.

505

Sometimes we have three

or four massacres a day.

506

I mean, many casualties

working all the time.

507

And just when I go home, I just sleep.

508

And in the very early morning, I

have to go to the hospital, but

509

sometimes they bomb during the night.

510

So we had to go to the hospital.

511

Every time I hear sound, I go

to the hospital or I hear the

512

war blend sound very loud.

513

I go to the hospital.

514

So this is was our life and we

didn't expect it will last, you know,

515

for year after year after year for

six years with no action from the

516

international community, no action

from, you know, the countries.

517

Which talk all the time about

the human rights, about the

518

children rights, women rights.

519

I mean, there were children that

were dying without food, without

520

enough food, without, uh, with

fear, I mean, with, uh, bombing.

521

So, yeah, that lasted

522

Wow.

523

Yeah, and So, I mean, obviously,

you're on high alert the entire time

524

you're out there, um, now being, uh,

you know, no longer at the hospital.

525

You know, how has the process of, of kind

of processing these events been for you?

526

Has it, um, you know, have you,

have you seeked out any type of

527

help or anything to, uh, try and

process these events or anything?

528

Um, like, how, yeah, how has

that whole process been for you?

529

Um, in, in terms of, you

know, Going through everything

530

that you've been through.

531

Well, I had a very hard time after

we left, and I just stayed at home.

532

And we were in northwest of Syria,

and also there were bombing there.

533

It's out of the Syrian regime control.

534

So I couldn't work there.

535

I went to a hospital there and tried

to start working, but I couldn't.

536

I was just, you know, have

these memories and I was shocked

537

with everything happened.

538

I start to think about everything.

539

So it was very hard time.

540

And then I moved to

Turkey and I got married.

541

I stayed at home for a few months.

542

They're thinking about

everything and crying.

543

And, you know, then I believe that,

you know, the only way to to, To go

544

through this to pass this is to keep

working because people still need

545

help and people still suffering.

546

Many, many Children who are there

with me, they just were displaced

547

to the northwest of Syria and

they lived in a camps in camps.

548

I mean, with very bad situation,

you know, living in a tent.

549

Especially like in winter with

the snow with, you know, the wind

550

sometimes take that the tent away.

551

They were hungry.

552

They have, you know,

millions of people in camps.

553

So you can imagine there's not enough

food and not enough, you know, no

554

access for health care services.

555

So I joined the, the, the organization,

uh, which was supporting the Cape

556

hospital, Syrian American medical society.

557

And I'm working now for them.

558

And they, you know, I believe

they're doing a great job supporting

559

everyone with other organizations.

560

They help.

561

That's not enough, of course,

not enough, but it helps.

562

I mean, we have like medical

facilities, we're supporting them.

563

We have a program for medical

education, for example, training

564

midwives and the nurses.

565

This is also great, supporting women.

566

And they're supporting hospitals there.

567

I'm supporting cancer patients.

568

They have the center of conservation.

569

So this is the only way, you know,

to heal is to keep helping, you

570

know, as, uh, we can, I mean, our,

you know, as possible as we can.

571

Yeah.

572

And you, you mentioned, I know

in the, in the documentary at one

573

point, uh, you mentioned how just

everyone being so malnourished,

574

especially a lot of the children.

575

It was very difficult to even give them

medications because for one, if you're

576

not eating enough food, you know, that's

going to be the first thing you need to

577

start doing before you can even really

start taking medic medications and

578

allow them to have the proper effect.

579

Um, so how, how were people getting

food, uh, into their houses?

580

Like what, because obviously

there's restrictions, people can't.

581

Transport food into the country.

582

So what was like the primary

way of, of people, uh, getting

583

food for their families?

584

Yeah, when the siege started,

it was very hard time.

585

It started in 2013.

586

And when winter come, I can remember

we really had nothing to eat.

587

It's, you know, some were

in countryside of Damascus.

588

So people plant many things used to plant.

589

I mean, but They start

to eat everything we had.

590

And then I remember very, very hard

time for a few months in the winter.

591

And I remember some people died because

of hunger and they were, you know, we

592

can't, you can see everyone very, very

thin people, the children, all of them

593

like were underweight and that was very

hard time when summer come, people start

594

to plant some, you know, the green plants.

595

It wasn't, you know, enough.

596

It didn't make them full,

but it helps a little.

597

And then after this, we

make this tunnel to connect.

598

It's, it was a secret tunnels to

connect the, the place with the,

599

with Damascus, but it was, you know,

hard, like, you know, a tunnel,

600

you can just move some food, not

a food for half a million people.

601

So they tried to smuggle some food

and then the Syrian regime know

602

about these tunnels and bombed it and

destroy it and try to make others.

603

And there were like sometimes from

the Points, which, you know, besieged

604

the area they they send smuggle.

605

I mean, with these leaders, I

mean, you know, they call them

606

the war leaders who try, you know,

to make a trade at this time.

607

So they try to sell a, uh, a barley.

608

It's a, you know, what, what is barley

is something, you know, it's not very

609

good to eat, but we were depend on

this barley to eat for a few years.

610

I remember this.

611

That's why the children

were like very underweight.

612

They were malnourished.

613

There were no, of course, no fruits,

no vegetables, but we depend on

614

what's what we can plant there.

615

Some green vegetables and with it

for this barley, sometimes smuggle

616

some something from the tunnel.

617

Sometimes we had nothing, but

people try to use everything we had.

618

And I remember we have For example,

we had no sugar, we had no salt.

619

And you know how bad our life

was with no salt and no sugar?

620

Very bad, I mean.

621

And people start to use salt from

different resources, use other things.

622

And one night they used something, it's

supposed to be salt, and it, uh, a family,

623

uh, Uh, bought this from someone and they

bought it on their food and they ate it

624

and they then they suffocated and the

three Children died from this family.

625

We found out after this, it

wasn't the sodium chloride.

626

It was ammonium chloride and

they ate it and they just died.

627

You know, many times we bought

things and we didn't know what it is.

628

I remember we just taste these things.

629

It's like sugar, but it's not real sugar.

630

I don't know.

631

Actually, maybe some something like

aspartame or something like this.

632

And we ate this and children ate this.

633

It's unhealthy, you know, but we tried.

634

I mean, when you are hungry, really

hungry, you need something to eat.

635

That's why we tried many, many things.

636

Yeah, absolutely.

637

Um, I also noticed that I feel like

the community of doctors and medical

638

professionals that you had in the cave.

639

Um, it looked like you all really formed

a strong community with 1 another.

640

And, uh, it seemed like it really

helped, um, for all of you to get

641

through these difficult times.

642

Can you talk a little

bit about the role that?

643

Um, the community of you and the

other medical professionals in

644

the cave, just kind of what role

and impact that had for you.

645

Yes, we were like really a big

family since we start working.

646

I know, I mean, I know everyone in

the hospital, the staff were like

647

100 or more in the Cape Hospital.

648

I know everyone.

649

I know their families.

650

I know what I mean.

651

They have what their problems.

652

I know everything.

653

They're, you know, siblings, the people

who have after when someone of them,

654

for example, lost when, you know, of

their families member in the bombing.

655

We all, you know, be together to pay

Try, you know, to take them past this.

656

It was, you know, very hard time.

657

We cook together.

658

Sometimes when we have, you know,

some food, we try to cook together.

659

And you can see this in the documentary.

660

The nurse was cooking for us.

661

You know, we try to have.

662

You know, some happy moments, happy times.

663

I mean, of this.

664

I mean, you know, we're human

beings and life continues.

665

It's years.

666

It's not a day or or a month.

667

It's years.

668

So we try to have this happy moments,

try to support each other to talk to

669

each other when when we're really feel,

you know, everyone has this moment.

670

When you, you feel that you can't

continue, I mean, you can't go on.

671

And I had these moments many times.

672

So we started not to talk with each

other, to say this, to support each other.

673

And that's really, you know, that,

that really helped us to just to

674

pass through this, to go through

this and, you know, to survive.

675

Yeah, I think community is such an

important, plays such an important

676

role in everyday life as well.

677

Um, but especially when you're in, um,

you know, a very difficult time, it can

678

be, uh, kind of the make or break for you.

679

You know, it can really be something to,

to, to lean on, you know, and in times

680

where maybe you're not as strong, uh,

people can lean on to you or sorry, you

681

can lean on to them and and vice versa.

682

So when, uh, others aren't strong,

they can lean on to you and.

683

Um, as well, I saw that you played

what seemed like a very large role

684

in the lives of many of the children

that came into, uh, the cave as well.

685

I saw in the documentary, for example,

uh, there is a young girl that you were

686

speaking with and, um, you know, just.

687

Trying to give her the best advice

that you possibly could at that time.

688

And, and really just being,

um, a role model and a parent,

689

parental figure to her.

690

Um, so I'm sure there is also

a lot of that as well, right?

691

Well, yeah, a lot, you know, and we

have, when we have some time, I try

692

just to speak with the children.

693

You know, the hardest thing is seeing

that the fear in their eyes, when you,

694

I was working with the children and

it's really hard and always when When

695

I look at their eyes and I see this

fear, they didn't know what happened.

696

They have nothing to do with war and with

bombing, and they don't know why they

697

have to be hungry, why they didn't have

something to eat because, you know, they

698

had this before, and now there's no food.

699

They don't understand.

700

I mean, they understand

nothing of what's happening.

701

So I tried just, you know, and

that doesn't happen a lot because

702

I didn't have time for everyone.

703

I remember, for example, Like sometimes

100 child with, of course, their parents

704

or someone came to my clinic a day.

705

It's a lot.

706

I can't see everyone and deal

with everyone with my, you

707

know, limited experience.

708

So yeah, when I, I have time to

try just to talk to them, support

709

them, try to bring them hope,

tell them that they can survive.

710

Everything will change.

711

It's okay.

712

Just, you know, sometime and it will pass.

713

You're gonna forget about this.

714

You're gonna go to school.

715

You will be happy.

716

You will have your friends,

have your favorite foods.

717

And, you know, that helps children.

718

They believe us.

719

And especially they believe the

doctor, you know, for a child.

720

The doctor is, you know, someone when I

say something for them, they trust me.

721

And yeah, I was happy to support them.

722

Yeah, yeah, they were absolutely

lucky to have you for sure.

723

And Uh, it just makes me wonder how, you

know, how difficult of a time they're

724

going to have in the future, you know,

trying to process these events that

725

they've been through and, and, um, I'm

sure there's going to be, you know,

726

um, a lot of work to do there as well.

727

Uh, one thing I was wondering

was, was there anything

728

that didn't get captured in.

729

The documentary or even in your book

as well, um that you feel should have

730

been highlighted more or Maybe just

wasn't included at all Well, it's a

731

documentary actually at the beginning.

732

I wasn't happy with the documentary

because I thought it's 90 minutes I

733

mean for everyone it's not short, but

I thought it's very short comparing

734

with what we witnessed What we see.

735

I wanted when I went out, I wanted the

people to see everything happening,

736

everything, every suffering for

every human being for every child.

737

And that was very hard to me.

738

I mean, when I watched the documentary,

I said, Where's this child?

739

Why?

740

I mean, there's no blood

in the documentary.

741

No heart.

742

scene.

743

I said, they said they don't want

to hurt people who are watching.

744

But I said, but we saw

this and this happened.

745

The child was hurt.

746

Did you know?

747

So yeah, the heart for me.

748

And that's why I decided to write

the book to, to tell the whole truth.

749

You know, it's impossible

to tell everything.

750

Everything.

751

But I tried with this book to

tell the many, many stories.

752

Many things happen.

753

I think it's, you know, it can

tell the people to give a good

754

idea about what's happening there.

755

The truth, especially now the Syrian

regime in Russia and everyone seeing

756

their, you know, propaganda and talking

their lies about what's happened.

757

And they called us terrorists.

758

And I wanted to tell the truth.

759

I wanted to tell the stories of the

victims, and I'm happy I was able to

760

tell this story through, through the

book with my co-author, uh, Rania.

761

I'm thankful for her to write this

story in this, uh, really great way.

762

And yeah, I wish that everyone

read this book to know about Syria.

763

I wanted to write more and more about

the suffering of the Syrian people now.

764

Now, especially in in camps in whole

Syria, you know, also also in the

765

Syrian regime area and northwest,

northeast, everywhere is, you know,

766

Syria now different parts with different,

you know, people who control it.

767

Many camps in Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon.

768

I tried to give an idea about

the situation of these people.

769

And the refugees also in every

country about their suffering.

770

But I wish people who read the

book to, you know, research more

771

and try to know more about these

people because I'm sure that you

772

can help everyone who read the book.

773

You can do something to help

people who are suffering.

774

Yeah.

775

Uh, well, on that, on that note, what,

uh, what are some things that people

776

can be doing right now to support

and help, uh, you know, the Syrian

777

refugees, but also just in general, uh,

Syria or refugees of other countries?

778

Thank you for this question.

779

And this is really my goal of this book.

780

I mean, know about Syria, read this

book, and know about these people

781

suffering, the children suffering.

782

When you sit with your children,

they are safe and warm.

783

Just think a little about other children.

784

Speak up for Syria.

785

Tell everyone about these stories.

786

With the politicians with the

parliament members with everyone,

787

we can make pressure on the

politicians, especially I'm in the U.

788

S.

789

In Europe, and they can make a

pressure on the Syrian regime, at

790

least to release the detainees.

791

The people who are being tortured every

day for now, maybe for 13 years or more.

792

And, you know, also before the revolution,

many, many political detainees.

793

They do nothing but Talk a little

about freedom or they demand

794

democracy for our country, so they

are dying in the prison every day.

795

You can donate also for the organizations

who are supporting people inside or

796

outside Syria, supporting refugees.

797

You can donate for this organization.

798

They support, try to support

everything and they need a lot,

799

a lot, you know, humanitarian

aid, like medical, educational,

800

everything is needed in Syria.

801

Um, thank no, and thank you

for, for sharing that as well.

802

Um, I'll be sure if, if, you know, after

this, if you would like to send over any

803

links as well, websites where people can.

804

Uh, donate or learn more.

805

Of course, we'll have that

in the in the description.

806

Um, but before, uh, before we

continue on with that, I wanted to

807

also, uh, I wanted to ask was writing

was writing this book because you

808

definitely go way more in depth.

809

Um, I wasn't able to read the entire

thing, but I read, uh, definitely a lot

810

of it and you do go way more in depth.

811

Was it was it therapeutic for you to

write that what did it help to Get

812

these thoughts out onto paper and to

kind of go through them Um, did you did

813

you find it beneficial in any way or

was it just difficult the entire time?

814

Exactly.

815

It helps me a lot because you

know, I always feel like I

816

had a burden on my shoulder.

817

I it's a responsibility.

818

I know about these Children and I said

many Children who suffered or who died.

819

No one see them but me.

820

I mean, no one knows about them

but me and it's a responsibility.

821

They shouldn't go in this way and and just

they were killed with their dreams with

822

their suffer and no one know about them.

823

And I felt I have to tell

everyone their stories.

824

Everyone.

825

I mean, because the criminals still,

you know, The president still as

826

a president now in Syria with,

you know, all the people around

827

him who support him and they must.

828

hold accountable for what they did.

829

So we need justice for these people.

830

So telling this story, writing this

book is, you know, it helps me before

831

helping everyone that I, I tell these

stories, you know, I will, I will die.

832

No, I will not live forever,

but this story should stay.

833

And everyone who read this story, I wish

they try to get justice for these people.

834

Yeah.

835

And it's, it's a, it's very impactful.

836

Your, your book is, is very well

written, cover some very, very intense

837

stuff that, um, I think is important

for people to, to read and to hear

838

about, because it really does put

into perspective, um, you know, for

839

example, for myself, it, you know, puts.

840

My life into perspective and just

seeing how lucky, uh, I am to be where

841

I am and, and, um, very fortunate,

you know, and, and to really just

842

give myself gratitude, uh, or to find

gratitude and, and being so lucky.

843

Um, and it, it, it really makes me

want to, uh, to definitely learn

844

more and to help out as well.

845

So, uh, I really appreciate

you doing what you're doing.

846

Um, you know, I hope you continue

on, keep spreading it, spreading this

847

message, because, uh, like you said,

you know, of course, we're all going to

848

eventually die one day, but, um, these

stories can absolutely live on and very

849

well should, and I think there's some

very valuable lessons in them and, and

850

I really applaud you for, for taking

the time to, uh, to write this book

851

and, and get your message out there.

852

Thank you so much.

853

Yeah, I'm really thankful because

you helped with this book.

854

Tell this story.

855

Also, thank you so much.

856

And you're really just it's our

responsibility, you know, to know

857

about other people who suffer.

858

If we are safe, I'm safe now with

my Children, you know, everyone who

859

is, you know, sitting in safe place.

860

I wish you stay safe.

861

Always.

862

I wish there's no more

wars around the world.

863

But we have to think about

each other as a human beings.

864

This is the goal of the life.

865

Absolutely.

866

Um, yeah, Dr.

867

Amani here, uh, as we start getting to

the end of this episode here, um, I would

868

like to, uh, take a moment first off.

869

Um, with one last question as

well as, well, actually maybe

870

two more questions there.

871

Um, but first off, let's start with

what does the future of Syria look like?

872

What do you think is going to

come in the next five to 10 years?

873

Do you see, you know, uh, a possibility

for change in the country or, or does it

874

seem like it might take longer than that?

875

Well, I decided to stay hopeful.

876

You know, and this is a decision,

actually, because the situation is very

877

bad, and we can see help, you know, for

maybe, but I decided to stay hopeful.

878

We will fight.

879

I mean, if we fight for something,

I'm fighting for justice.

880

I'm fighting to helping the people.

881

So if we fight For something and we

believe that it's not gonna happen.

882

So, you know, it's not you.

883

You can't fight.

884

I mean, you can't do what

you have to do in good way.

885

So I decided to stay hopeful.

886

And I wish for Syria.

887

And I'm sure this will happen someday.

888

Just as hold the criminals accountable.

889

They will leave Syria to presence

and we will back to our country.

890

rebuild our country and, you

know, try to help each other.

891

The Syrians, especially, you know,

all the Syrians are really, they want

892

to build their country so we can help

each other and make our country great.

893

Yeah, I love that.

894

Um, yeah, and I'm staying hopeful as well.

895

Um, I think that's a good

way to look at things, right?

896

It doesn't doesn't help to

be pessimistic about it.

897

Um, so I think keeping an

optimistic outlook is a great idea.

898

Um, the last question here

that I have for you, Dr.

899

Amani, um, as someone who has, you

know, experienced more than many people

900

will ever experience in their lifetime.

901

What are, what would be three pieces

of advice or wisdom that you would like

902

to just, if you could leave that with

everybody on the planet, uh, what would

903

those three pieces of advice or wisdom be?

904

Well, try to know more about

other people, other stories, and,

905

and believe that you can help.

906

Don't underestimate yourself.

907

your efforts.

908

Do your part.

909

I mean, in this life, every

one of us has have to do their

910

parts and I'm doing my part.

911

If everyone, you know,

do it is responsibility.

912

It's not something that we just volunteer

if I want to help these people or not.

913

No, you have to help everyone.

914

And someday you need help, you know?

915

So just think about about this.

916

Think about other people

and do something for them.

917

Don't say like, for example,

I'm not talking about only

918

Syria, about everywhere.

919

Many places, you know,

people are suffering.

920

Many, many places in the world.

921

So just think about these people.

922

Don't say, no, I don't care.

923

Syria is far other, you know,

is far and we are okay here.

924

No, we have to help each other.

925

So this is my advice for everyone,

especially for the young people

926

who are, you know, the hope

now, the young generation.

927

And I'm really happy to see young

people now are, you know, they

928

care about these good issues.

929

They care about everything about

the people who are suffering, the

930

innocent people, about the earth,

talking about the climate change.

931

It's, you know, something promise.

932

Yeah, yeah, I think, uh, once

again, just kind of coming back

933

to that, that term of community.

934

Um, but rather looking at community

as everyone on the planet, right?

935

Like, we're a global community and,

um, you know, we're all neighbors to

936

1 another and extending a hand, like

you said, can be so beneficial because

937

you never know when you're going to

need, uh, someone to help you as well.

938

Um, so, yeah, having that compassion

to, to help each other out.

939

I think it's extremely important.

940

Exactly.

941

Yeah, this is what I mean.

942

Yeah.

943

I love that.

944

Dr.

945

Amani.

946

Well, I want to open the floor here

for you, uh, as we wrap up this episode

947

to just let people know where they

can find you, where they can connect

948

with you, where they can learn more.

949

Um, of course, like I said, we'll go

ahead and put all of this in this,

950

in the description of the show, but

please go ahead and take this moment

951

to share whatever you would like to

share with, uh, the listeners here.

952

Well, I wish everyone.

953

Read the book.

954

It will give you a very good

idea about the Syrian situation,

955

what happened in Syria.

956

And it's, you know, the

publisher is National Geographic.

957

You can find it everywhere, I

mean, in bookstores and online.

958

And, uh, you can find me if you want

to contact me on my social media.

959

I mean, Facebook, Instagram, and etc.

960

Okay.

961

Awesome.

962

Yeah.

963

Um, I'm not sure if I've followed you on

there yet, so I will be doing so for sure.

964

Um, and we will definitely

keep in touch Dr.

965

Amani.

966

Um, once again, from the bottom of my

heart, thank you so much for all of the

967

work that you've done and continue to do.

968

And uh, it was absolutely an honor

to have you on this podcast and

969

yeah, I really appreciate you.

970

So thank you so much.

971

Thank you.

972

Thank you so much for having me.

973

My, that honor is all mine.

974

Well, thank you so much, everyone.

975

Uh, please go ahead and

get in touch with Dr.

976

Mani, find her on Instagram or any of

the socials and, uh, educate ourselves.

977

Let's do our best to do that and, uh,

contribute in whatever way that we can.

978

Um, till then we'll see you on the next

episode and thank you all very much.