In this enlightening episode of the Pivot podcast, hosts the Rev. Dr. Terri Elton and the Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile explore the concept of beloved community with the Rev. Stephanie Spellers, Canon to the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church for Evangelism, Reconciliation, and Creation Care. Stephanie shares powerful insights on how churches can foster authentic, loving communities in the face of today's challenges.

Drawing from her own spiritual journey and extensive ministry experience, Stephanie offers fresh perspectives on building beloved community through Jesus-centered discipleship, reimagined evangelism, and integration of reconciliation and creation care. Listeners will gain practical strategies for nurturing small groups, engaging their wider communities, and cultivating spiritual practices that transform lives. This conversation provides inspiration and equipping for church leaders seeking to create vibrant, inclusive communities of faith that embody God's love in our rapidly changing world.

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Stephanie Spellers: There's an external challenge, and that's kind of how folks see us, namely that study after study. We're learning that people want something of the spirit out there in the, you know, in American life. Certainly they want belonging, they want community, they want transformation. They want meaning, they want even to give their lives for something greater. So the things that we would mark as well, that's what church does. That's what church is about. Folks are still game for that. They just don't think they're going to find it with us.

Terri Elton: Hello everyone, I'm Terri Elton and today I'm joined with Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world.

Dwight Zscheile: Our guest today is the Reverend Stephanie Spellers, canon to the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church for evangelism, reconciliation, and creation care. She's the author of The Church Cracked Open Disruption, decline, and New Hope for Beloved Community, The Episcopal Way, and Radical Welcome Embracing God, the Other, and the Spirit of Transformation, which is now available in an updated 15th Anniversary edition. Stop it! For decades, Stephanie has worked to foster renewal, creative witness to Jesus, and discipleship across the Episcopal Church and other mainline denominations. She was also the founder of The Crossing, which is an alternative worshiping community in Boston. Stephanie, welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Stephanie Spellers: Thank you so much. Thank you for even having this conversation I love it. Pivot. Let's pivot.

Dwight Zscheile: All right. Well so let's by let's begin by digging in to your own story. Share a bit about your own background. Did you grow up at the church? I know you were a religion reporter early in your career, and I'm curious how did that shape your understanding as you talked to people about their experiences of God?

Stephanie Spellers: Yeah. Um, so first of all, thank you, Dwight and Terri and everybody who's listening, watching wherever you might be. It's great to be in this conversation. Um, I have loved the conversations about things of the spirit since I was a kid. Um, I remember growing up in Kentucky and, like, having, like, these moments, like transcendent moments walking in my grandmother's yard and not knowing that there was a language for even a word called transcendent. But, um, so I was having a lot of those spirit experiences, even as I was watching people involved in church because I was, you know, a black kid in Kentucky. So pretty much the assumption was we all do church, right, let's go do church. And, um, I had a lot of questions and I felt from an early age like, wait a second, the pastor keeps preaching about wives obeying their husbands, but my mom's husband isn't here and my auntie's husbands aren't here. I think he means obey the pastor. So like I was nine years old when that went click for me. Like, whoa, what they call that? The hermeneutic of suspicion? I had that early on, but, um, yeah. So I so I kept a distance from, from church. I was surrounded by it, kept a distance from it. I went to college, majored in religion. So again studying it, but always saying, oh, I do liberation theology, I do Hinduism, I do Buddhism, I don't do like, you know, regular old American Christianity. Went to divinity school, major, you know, got my masters in American religious history at Harvard and um, and was still like, ah, but I'm not doing religion. I'm just watching and observing and reporting out on religion that I was a reporter for a newspaper. And even as I was saying all of these things, I was also singing in gospel choirs, singing in concert choirs, uh, having religious experiences, but just not wanting to place them in the boxes that had been available to me. Um, it was one of the turning points for me, honestly. Did come when I was a religion reporter for newspaper in Knoxville, Tennessee, which may not have a lot to recommend it. It may not ring a lot of bells for people, except in Knox County has more churches per capita than any county in America. Or it did when I was serving as their religion reporter. So I was going around writing these stories, talking to people and having to kind of take in their stories about faith. And religion. And then can metabolize, internalize and then write the stories. Write about their experiences, write about whatever faith had to do with education, politics, you name it. And after a while, what I found was I didn't just want to tell other people's stories about a life with God. Like after I'd been internalizing so much of their story, I wanted to have a story of my own. And so that was probably when I started attending church, like just because I wanted to be there. And, um, and then slowly, maybe not that slow. Probably a couple of years later, I imagine. I was baptized at age 28. And then by age 30, I think I was starting the process for ordination. So I think this was definitely a case where God is like, I'm going to let you wait this out. I'm going to let you think you're in charge of this, but then I'm taking over. So. And it was just the fast track and um, and anyway, and that's where I am today, but, um, but still with a heart for the seekers and the questioners and still, honestly, with a deep lived experience of life with and without church at the center.

Terri Elton: Stephanie, I love the the two parts of what you just said, the role of like, I'm studying religion, but as an from from an outsider's perspective, right? I'm really curious, but I don't want to be inside. But I'm doing that. And then in the listening and writing of stories is where the transformation happened for you?

Stephanie Spellers: Yes, yes.

Terri Elton: You know, so.

Stephanie Spellers: Often the case, isn't it? You know, we we work on sermons and we do all of that beautiful exegesis of biblical text and, you know, the the study of the history of blah, blah, blah and all of this. And when you're standing at the door at the end of the day or at the end of Sunday, folks are shaking your hand talking about a story. Yeah, they're talking about a story, because that's the thing they're taking home with them. That was the thing that changed my life.

Terri Elton: Yeah, I love that. Thanks for that. And now you have this really unique vantage point of working at a national level, but also have experience at the local level. Right. What do you see today? Fast forward as the primary challenges and opportunities facing the church.

Stephanie Spellers: I think a lot about the church capital T, capital C more than most. It's a part of working in a denominational office. Just, uh, just kind of just below or just on the senior team of a denominational head. So, yeah, I wake up in the middle of the night. The church. The church, uh, and I guess I would identify. I like your question. Um. But probably two major challenges. There's so many, so many, but two that. Um. That are both challenge and opportunity that I think are facing us right now. There's an external challenge, and that's kind of how folks see us, namely that study after study. We're learning that people want something of the spirit out there in the, you know, in American life. Certainly they want belonging, they want community, they want transformation. They want meaning, they want even to give their lives for something greater. So the things that we would mark as well, that's what church does. That's what church is about. Folks are still game for that. They just don't think they're going to find it with us. And there are a host of reasons why, but it just means that the folks who were wanting those elements of a life, if you will, are piecing it together quite apart from from a religious, institutional community like ours. So that external challenge, I think, is real. Um, you know that that it's not that folks don't want what we at our core are about. Maybe it's that we have have neglected that core mission, and they're voting with their feet. Um, which is to say, they're not coming near us or they're leaving. So that's an internal that's an external challenge, I think, in terms of kind of how folks see us and what's going on in their lives. And then there's, I think, an internal challenge for us as church. And that is simply that we're in we're in freefall and a lot of our denominations just numerically. And the decline in numbers is not so much a reason to panic, but I think that the experience of declining means that we're getting more and more internally focused, more and more anxious, less and less confident, less, um, honestly, less focused on God and more on ourselves, our structures, our whatever, whatever, less focused on our neighbors except insofar as they might be the new butts in pews and the answer to our stewardship problems. So it all still comes back to us, our institutions, our survival. And I think as long as that's your focus, even if it's out of desperation and terror, you know, like like it makes sense that when you're in a terror space or traumatized, you're going to be hunkered and figuring out, how do I make it? How do I make it? That very posture will only make us die faster. We have to open out. We have to open out to the spirit. We have to open out to our neighbors. And it's hard to say this, but we have to fall in love. Like you can't be told to fall in love, right? But the only thing that will save us are is the only thing that ever has. And that's love. You know, we have to fall in love with our neighbors and genuinely be invested in their flourishing and genuinely see how it is that relationship with them will make, will make us more complete as the body of Christ. And we have to fall in love with God again, maybe even for the first time. That's that's the challenge. Yeah. Um. Yeah, that's the challenge and the opportunity. Hey, you want to go fall in love with God? That sounds good.

Terri Elton: Yeah, I love that. And I want to do a pitch here for your book. Um, we have and I have used your book. The church cracked open as a way to bring people into some of those. I think you highlight some of those really nicely in that piece. And what I love is new hope. You end with hope. Right? A new discovery of hope for a beloved community that is that kind of loving community that loves God and neighbor in in this time and place. Do you want to just describe, just for a little bit what you imagine, like? I think hope is what we're looking for in community, right? And I think you do a nice job with that.

Stephanie Spellers: But there are some really basic experiences, longings that we share just as human beings. We want to be loved. We want to experience some kind of freedom. Even within bounds with some freedom. Um. And um, and we want to experience, I think, just abundance, the sense of possibility and more.

Terri Elton: I, I want you to describe the new hope of these beloved communities and why they matter today, why they are an answer to this.

Stephanie Spellers: So there's some really basic things I think every human being is longing for. You know, once you get even past the Maslow's hierarchy of human need and you're like, you got food, okay, you got a home, okay? You got. And for a lot of folk, the answer is no. And that's real. But, um, but there's but there's also this longing. I think that we all have to belong and to experience freedom and to know ourselves as beloved, as loved. Um, and and to feel like we're contributing to something that's truly greater and that goes beyond ourselves. So that's there. I have in my in my study of world religions and secular culture and my own experience of all of that personally. Um, you know, in my life in various regions and parts of the world, even, I've yet to meet communities of people, significant groups of people who aren't yearning for that. So, um. So yeah, I mean, I believe I have discovered that church at its core is a community of people who are trying to live into that dream. It's the dream of God. It's the dream of humanity. For that wholeness, for that belonging, for that love. That's not conditional. Um, for that meaning, for that abundance, for that freedom. And insofar as we can nurture those communities, beloved community again, I think we'll we won't just be relevant. We'll be what we were born to be. And and folk respond to that. They just do they just I you've seen it. You know it. Folks respond when they see you in a desperate state and, you know, kind of anxious. And honestly, the response is sort of like, hmm. And when they feel you in a space of loving and curiosity and hope, they lean in, this is not rocket science.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Stephanie, one of the experiments that you have been involved in, and I was involved very in a very modest way, very early on in this in the Episcopal Church was um, an initiative called The Way of Love, which was an attempt to help the church have a bit clearer practical vision of what does it mean to follow Jesus, to live a Jesus shaped life, to live into this very experience of love that you're describing so as to be able to deepen, right, their own identity there, and then to be able to share that with neighbors. Tell us a bit about the way of love and what what did you learn from that initiative?

Stephanie Spellers: Well, I'm happy, first of all, to say that as we prepare for our general convention, I think by the time folks are hearing this podcast convention will have just ended. We're gathering the whole Episcopal Church, like thousands of folks will gather in Louisville on June the 23rd to the 28th. And one of the things that's going to happen there is we will be launching The Big Way of Love for kids, which is a fresh curriculum around The Way of Love, and also the latest installment of a video series about the way of love and how Episcopalians are living that way. Um, so we started on that journey explicitly in 20 2017. Dwight, I think, is when you and I and a group of folk gathered in December of 2017, um, and gave birth to the way of love as, as a concept and an invitation to the church. And now we're six years later and still still going and God willing, still even beyond that. Because. The big question that drove us, um, where the answer was the way of love. The big question was. How do you help Episcopalians? To build a life. Where Jesus is at the center. And. We're truly like we have. We live lives that are Jesus shaped, shaped like his, centered on his. Knowing that we as a church have encouraged folks to build their lives on any number of other things, and we've affirmed it. And that's a part of our history, our story with Empire, and that we haven't often challenged people to live a life focused on Jesus. We've been perfectly happy being an accessory in their lives. Uh, but with the way of love. What we were asking was, how do we how do we say time out, time out, reroute. We didn't tell you the whole story. We told you that being a part of church was coming on whatever Sundays. You felt like giving as much money as you felt like and being a good person. In fact, it's about being centered on the life of Christ and living a cross-shaped life. Yourself in community. So the way of love was our way of inviting Episcopalians to take up seven practices that look like Jesus. Seven practices that are all grounded in Scripture where when you see each of them, you can say, oh, and here's when Jesus did that. And you can also feel when you do them. Oh, this is I'm almost like I'm in conditioning, you know, becoming more like Christ as I do these things. The seven are let me I could grab I still have all over my office any number of of little cards and things like that. I'm going to grab one just a second because it's right here. Yeah. Ta da! Never far, never far. Um. But when we speak of the way of love, we talk about how, um, we turn, as in, like Jesus, did we turn toward God. We orient our lives toward God. Um, we choose to follow and we learn. That's another of the practices here. We learn specifically learning about Scripture. So that's the invitation to read Scripture regularly and go to your Bible. Don't just go during church or hear somebody else read it during church. Get to know those scriptures, because that's the story of God among us, and we want to learn and internalize that story. There it is again. Right, Terry? To pray is one of these practices. And prayer is just it's our invitation. Again, we wanted to invite folks to dwell intentionally with God every day. Worship is another of the practices. Knowing that Jesus spent time in the temple, Jesus was in community and um. And that you may or may not want to keep this, but it's a phrase that's come to me recently and I've, I've, I've not said it on a recording, but I'm just going to try this out with you all. Um, especially around worship, but really around all of these prayer learning. Is that people say they want a relationship with God, but, um, but then they don't really show up for it. Like, well, how are you going to have a relationship with somebody if you don't show up that often? Like, you can't say you have an intimate relationship with somebody where you just do booty calls. So it's like enough of these booty calls with God. You need to you need to to actually commit, show up and then you can have that intimate relationship that you say you want. So worship it's got to happen more than once every six months or three months or even two. You got to show up for the relationship. Blessing is, um, is the practice where we give our lives away for God. So many ways that we do that. But when we when we do things that are a blessing to others, we are participating in the way of Jesus. And go that is going across borders outside of comfort in order to encounter God moving even beyond our imagining and in communities that are, um, maybe not the ones that we are most at home in. And then rest. Rest is certainly one of those seven practices Jesus rested. We need rest because when we rest, we're actually trusting the grace of God. So we introduced those seven practices. And more than that we said like, this is not a curriculum. This is a way of life. It's a rule of life. Um, so we need each of us needs a pattern of some kind. If it's not these seven practices, get a pattern. What we found was people were so responsive. The cards and the invitation that we issued six years ago went flying, flying off the shelves. Um, folks were so grateful that their church asked them for something that their church took them seriously. And that their church was taking God and Jesus seriously. You, you it just people who are cradle Episcopalians were like, finally, this is the reason I've been showing up. I wanted you all to help me to build a life with God. Thank you. So that was a lot of the initial response, and it is still very much response from folks when we I think the the pivot, maybe it got harder when we had to talk about how do you sustain and grow a life with God. And we said, well, that's in community and it's in small groups especially that, you know, you're not going to be able to necessarily live this way of love as Jesus centered life. If you're just going to church periodically. And, um, and if most of your formation happens in a church building, you're going to have to do some of this outside. You're going to have to do some of this with a group of people you're accountable with. Hello. And once we started talking about small groups, it got harder. Um. Pandemic, I honestly thought would be a moment for for folks to say, I can't go to the building. So hey, we'll get into small groups. So we really tried in 2020 and 21 to encourage Episcopalians to live the way of love in small groups. But I think that the panic of pandemic was such that it was difficult to to catch people's attention and to say, wait, wait, wait. I know it's hard right now, but this will actually help. Like getting a small group of people will help you with every other part of your life. A small group of people with whom you pray, study scripture, figure out how you together or individually will be a blessing. And then also take Sabbath, all of those things in the way of love. If you're doing that in a small group, you will come out of this pandemic more powerfully connected with God and each other. The folks who took us at our word. I've heard the stories of churches saying we're more vibrant now. This is weird. And the ones that really just kind of focused on worship and and just getting the basics, getting by, I think. There was a hollowness and they may. I don't have the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if those are some of the churches that are struggling more right now. But, um, yeah, it's always a challenge placing discipleship at the heart of a church's life, especially mainline Protestant churches. Um, we've. Yeah. That's just this. We we we've we kind of took our charge up that hill and we're still walking up it, but, um, but we're we weren't the first to try to to grow that culture of discipleship. And it's a, it's a lifelong commitment.

Terri Elton: So I love those practices and I, I love that they can be both like I can do them on my own. I can do jazz with them. But there's some formal and traditions and rituals, right, that the church brings to each of those. Yeah. Um, but do you have a story or can you give some examples of how actual congregations began to turn their culture to be more one of discipleship, using those? I think we often hear the hard ones, but it would be good to hear some of the positive stories.

Stephanie Spellers: Yes. Um, I think one of my dear friends is a rector of a church in the suburbs of Massachusetts. And, you know, you don't get more kind of secular adjacent, I think, where you could, but it'd be hard then in some of those communities outside of Boston, which is where I ministered and lived for 20 years before I moved to New York. Um, and so my friend was sort of her church is kind of one of my test grounds, you know, that when I was no longer in, in, in ministry in a congregation, I am again now, which is wonderful blessing here in New York. But for a while there for a stretch, I was denominational and didn't have those roots, so I would test stuff out with her. And her congregation, just like they ate this up. And it was a community of folk who, again, you know, it's the whole like, oh, you've got so many things going on Sundays. And, you know, every vestry meeting is about building and, and, and money and all of this and, um, and introducing the way of love to her vestry and the rest of the congregation. What she found was invited on being invited to start vestry meetings with prayer and scripture study. Something would shift in the rest of the meeting. They began to look forward to that time of Scripture study. Um, given the opportunity or given the invitation to center worship again and not just to make it, you know, to actually just say, not make people feel guilty, but to say there's something happening here and it's worth our time. And God is worth our time and we will get more out of this relationship if we commit. Um, she started seeing more of that kind of engagement just by naming. Naming, inviting people to that deeper commitment. Um, and there are a number of other ways. I mean, and again, some of this was during pandemic, but, um, you know, but they, you know, this was one of the many churches that figured out ways of serving with their neighbors, you know, when folks were really struggling, but they were doing it as a part of their understanding of living away with Jesus. So it wasn't just there's hungry people out there. It was there's hungry people. And so when we go and we connect with them, we are going across a border. And meeting Jesus. So it gave them a theological language for some of the external mission work they would be doing. Um. So. Yeah. Like that's. I thought it was wonderful, you know, that she was coming back to me and saying it's working. Um, you know, because we again, we say things like, it's not rocket science. Hey, it's like, but when's the last time you were in a Sunday morning congregation? You know, making making the pivot, making the turn, helping folks to redefine what it is to be church. And I think what we discovered is explicit invitation. Biblical kind of scriptural grounding. And genuine joy. And. Live a fuller heart on the part of the leader. Can really. Um. Our friend Dwight. Dwight and I have a mutual friend, Jay Sidebottom, um, who works with a group called Renewal Works. And he talks a lot about the heart of the leader. You know that when the leader's heart has been broken open and the leader is yearning for more of God, and the leader is sharing those stories, and the leader is then inviting everybody else to have that intimacy with God. People so often will come back and say, that's what we've been waiting for, man. That's all we've been waiting for here.

Dwight Zscheile: Amen. So part of your title is evangelism again, another topic that many mainline churches struggle with alongside discipleship. So tell us a little bit about how you understand evangelism and what have you learned about how to help congregations evangelize graciously, faithfully, and effectively?

Stephanie Spellers: So this is another of the so funny that I got all of this stuff in here, but, um. In other words, um. Evangelism was such a dirty word throughout the Episcopal Church and throughout the mainline, I think in general. Lots of folks worry when they hear the word evangelism that, um, that it's it's actually something that those Christians do, but we don't do. And they worry that evangelism is disrespectful to people who might not have a faith or have a different religious tradition. And we don't want to offend. God forbid, you know, heaven. Forfend. Um, and we also worry, I think that we don't have the credentials and some of the more learned ministry churches, regular folks feel like, well, I haven't studied enough to have anything to say about faith. And so with all of that baggage, good Lord, all that baggage. The team that I work with, the evangelism team, with the of the presiding Bishop's office, we were like, all right, we've we've got to we've got to heal this brokenness. We've got to to set aside this baggage. We've got to reimagine and embrace evangelism. So part of how we did that was we started out by just redefining evangelism. We were like, so what do you think evangelism is? What do you think it is? And we let people give all of the horror stories and the negative descriptions, sometimes positive ones. But we would respond with, well, and we worked with a whole lot of folks and did a lot of praying around it. A definition of evangelism that for us was authentically episcopal, and that is practical. We seek, name and celebrate Jesus's loving presence and the stories of all people. Which people? All people. Which people? All people. And then we invite everyone to more. And so in that definition or living out that definition, we've developed, you know, we have six session video series called Embracing Evangelism that churches can use in small groups to teach and to grow their own practice as evangelists. Uh, we've. We've been running revivals across the church, 26 of them. In the eight years that Bishop Curry has been our Presiding Bishop. 26 revivals. The 27th will be next Saturday, the 22nd of June. Um, so lots of ways to kind of invite folks. And with those revivals, we've been working with dioceses and we do trainings and evangelism and mission in those dioceses. So it's never just about a big worship service. We've been doing a lot of just the practical stuff on the ground, helping Episcopalians to find their words. But also to understand that when it's when it's us doing evangelism, it's never just about my words. I'm out there seeking. So I'm humble. I'm curious, what's God up to out there? God's already moving. So we our first move as evangelists is not having a formula of things. We're going to say it's actually going out to seek name. So seek the presence of Jesus and the love of the spirit. And then when you see it, name it, say that was Jesus, that was the Holy Spirit. And then celebrate it, you know, like, have a moment with whoever you you're with where you say, wow. And just allow the joy of the Lord and your gratitude at that sighting of the spirit alive. Allow that gratitude to well up and flow out of you. As you seek, name and celebrate Jesus loving presence in the story. So it's all about the stories. I'm recognizing Jesus in my life and I see him in yours. And I got to tell you, the most amazing practice of evangelism is simply looking around your neighborhood, your community, your family. And when you see people doing something that looks like God, say so. And it's miraculous because the folks who have nothing to do with church, they're like, what? You think? Wait, you're talking to me? You think I look like God? Yeah. I just saw you do that. You look like God to me. Um. Or. Hey, that was a really beautiful thing you just did. You just blessed her. I didn't. I'm. I'm not capable of that. Well, I saw you do it. So I guess God is working in you. And then it opens up a way for conversation about more. And the more is really important for us. We don't go around telling people, now that you've been evangelized, go to church. What we say is God is in charge of the outcomes, but we have to show up and issue the invitation. Um, but again, going back to where we started, folks want more? Folks all around us want more of God, more of the spirit. They want more community. They want more belonging. They want more meaning. You know, they want more than themselves or more than their small circle. More than scraping and scraping, so the more the desire for more is there. We just have to show up, share the stories, celebrate God in people's lives, and then invite them to deepen that experience so that they have an even richer life with God. And so they know we would love to be their companions on that journey. That's Episcopal evangelism.

Terri Elton: I love that Stephanie and and I, I like the boldness of it and of saying, I think that's God of naming it in the moment and of speaking to strangers or, or, uh, people that you may not know very well and say, I'm curious about this. Right. It's it's really a bold move to get into conversation, but it's a positive move, right? Often evangelism is let me give you the answers as opposed to I spot this in you, right? It's flipping that around. I love it when.

Stephanie Spellers: It's going from there's something missing in your life. Yes. What I yes need what I have. You need my church. You need my Jesus. But instead saying I see something in you. Do you want to grow that? Yeah, yeah. Do you want to grow that? Um, it's it's it's it's acts eight. Yeah, it's it's Philip with the Ethiopian eunuch. Mhm. Yeah. That's the story for me. That is Episcopal evangelism in a nutshell. That's great. Alongside they're already reading the scriptures. They're already having the conversations. But you could come alongside and help them to take a deeper. And then they'll be surprised if somebody says look there's water above.

Terri Elton: So you have one of the most interesting titles. And I want to know if that's maybe true to how evangelism, reconciliation, and creation care go together. Because. Maybe not evangelism, but certainly reconciliation and creation care I hear are really things that people are interested in. So I'm curious that that would be part of your job. Tell us more.

Stephanie Spellers: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I love my job. I love the work we get to do. I love that evangelism, reconciliation, particularly racial reconciliation and justice and creation care. Those three, they hang together so beautifully, especially if you just start with, um, the great commandment. If you start with Jesus, you know, and before Jesus, you know, with the ancients saying that, what are we here to do? Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. These ministries. These commitments to evangelism, reconciliation, creation, care are really how we live out that great commandment and that loving God. So that's evangelism. You know, evangelism is helping folks to develop that loving relationship with God, loving each other, loving our neighbors. So that's and that's kind of the horizontal, if you will. And that's reconciliation, healing, whatever has been broken so that we can live out the love that is the original intent of God for creation, for us as humans, that reconciliation and then restoring relationship with the whole creation. So love God, love your neighbor, and understand that the whole creation is a part of that neighborhood. The accretion is that neighborhood. And so, um, yeah. So. I again. I find it really beautiful to sit with folks who are super commitment, super committed to climate justice and environmental care. And to say, you know, and to show up as, as Christians. And they're like, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be waiting for the Second Coming and burning everything, you know? Um, it's like, no, no, we're here because. Creation is a gift from God. And when I love creation, I'm loving God. I'm loving God's body. And if I love God, how can I not love what God has created, including this earth, these skies? Um, you know, these other creatures. Like love spills out in this desire for reconciled relationship. And and that relationship is with God, with one another and with creation. So that's how it holds together for me.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Stephanie, one last question for you. We are just months away from, you know, a very divisive presidential election. We're in this season where there's a lot that seems to be coming apart. Where are you finding hope? And how does our faith help us navigate these waters?

Stephanie Spellers: I'm tempted to wade in to those choppy waters. And, um, I'm going to mix metaphors here. I'm tempted to wade in and just to kind of get my wins, you know, get a win. Um, you know, I'm tempted to turn to the channel that is my red meat. And as soon as I I'm listening, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. The place where I find hope. And. And am able to get rerouted is honestly when I keep coming back to the gospel of love. No joke. Um, remembering that as long as I am in that fight space, there will always be that fight. But that I can come in with truth. Not just with holes and everything else, but with truth, the truth of the gospel. And then. Allow. I'm gonna say allow to happen whatever's going to happen. But just there's. There's a way that I can do my part by telling the truth and love speaking the truth. And and I'll be clear. I mean, speaking the truth in love when you're in conversation, maybe it's difficult conversation with a neighbor or with a family member. Um, I don't need to get a win on that person. I don't need to score points. But I also don't just need to. I don't want to disengage, but to show up with truth and to say, wow, okay. I. I hear you on. Um, you know, on your, you know, your feelings about your, your perspective on, on poverty policy and your belief that our money shouldn't be going to support people who are poor. I just keep going back to, you know, the many, many times that Jesus warned us that our attachment to money would actually stand in the way of getting closer to God. And I wonder if the way those of us who have a lot of money and cling to it and don't pay our taxes, etc., that if there's actually something spiritually that's damaging about that, that the the releasing for the sake of the greater flourishing is actually a part of how we live as followers of Jesus. And. So I don't need to go into the policy. No angle. I mean, there's a time for that. But I just find that that the conversation can actually go a little further. If it's rooted in what might end up being a shared belief. And if that person knows again that I'm not trying to score points, I'm trying to live the way of Jesus. And I see maybe something in them that's also trying to live a way of integrity and. Invite them into love. That's all I know.

Dwight Zscheile: That is a wonderful way to end this rich conversation. Stephanie. Thank you so much for being with us on the Pivot podcast and sharing your insight and wisdom. And to our audience, thank you for joining us to help spread the word about pivot. Please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Terri Elton: And one of the biggest compliments that you can give us is if you've appreciated this pivot episode is to share it with a friend, and that spreads the word and it brings new listeners into our pivot podcast audience, and we're excited about that. So until next time, this is Terry Elton with Dwight Zscheile signing off. We'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith Lead. Faith Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.