Episode Summary: Today, we’re presenting the final part of our conversation recorded in 2022 with Josh Spodek, a leader in environmental advocacy and personal change who got a segment in the Daily Show, because he went off grid living in Manhattan. 

You can listen to the previous episode to find out about the story. 

As we conclude this series, Joshua takes us through his innovative approaches to addressing climate change and how he emphasizes the power of individual actions and leadership in the fight against global environmental issues. 

This episode was originally aired in 2022. Follow the link to listen to the full episode

Watch Josh Spodek in the Daily Show

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Brian D Tormey and Olabanji Stephen

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US.

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work. 

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hello again.

2

Um, leaky.

3

And you're listening to common sessions.

4

Today, we're presenting the final

part of our conversation that we

5

recorded in 2022 with Josh Spodek.

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Uh, letter in environmental

application and personal change.

7

Who got a segment into daily show because

he went upgrade living in Manhattan.

8

You can listen to the

previous episode to find out.

9

All about the story of

him living off-grid.

10

As we concluded his series.

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Josh take us through his innovative

approaches to addressing climate

12

change and how he emphasizes the power.

13

Of individual actions and

leadership in the fight against.

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Global environmental

issues and climate change.

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I think this is beautiful and,

and we're, we're, that's what

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conversations are all about is figuring

out and finding out where they go.

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You know, I think a lot of what you're

talking about in this example of this

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executives and sort of his resistance,

maybe having conversations about how to

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think about things, but then you sort

of like maybe without his awareness

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leading him down, this pathway speaks

a little bit to, I think something

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that seems to underlie so much of.

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Your writing and your leadership is, is

behavior change and pattern changing.

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You know, even the term, you know,

this sustainable life, like it's about.

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Changing those patterns and, and

you recently had a fabulous podcast

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interview with, with Holly Whitaker.

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The, the author of a book quit, like a

woman that explores her pathway to forego

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alcohol or rather live a sober lifestyle.

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And, and in that interview, you,

you dig a lot into the correlation

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between alcohol addiction.

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And our addiction to fossil fuels, or

maybe rather our addiction to the belief

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that the things we can derive from

fossil fuels faster, this cheaper, that,

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easier, that is itself an addiction,

an addiction to that feeling and belief

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that that life will be easier or better.

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Can you share some thoughts on like this

idea of behavior change and, and that

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mindset change and, and the correlation

over to other kinds of addiction?

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where when we step back, you know,

Holly refers to alcohol as sort

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of like our modern day cigarette.

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Right.

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And can you step back and help us

think about our patterns and behaviors

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as, as in our lives and how those are

themselves, addictions and how we might

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consider changing those behaviors?

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Yeah.

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There's lots of definitions of,

of addiction and I don't claim

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to be an addiction specialist.

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A lot of it is that it's something around

choosing something that, you know, has

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long term, uh, adverse effects for the

short term reward, and maybe some attempt

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to try to stop, an inability to stop.

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A lot of people connect them

with chemicals like drugs and

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alcohol and, and nicotine.

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The, the specialists recognize things

like gambling and some we'll say

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video game addiction and social media.

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Different experts will qualify

these things as, as addictions as.

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And when you're addicted, you know, you

make these choices that you wouldn't

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otherwise, and it's very difficult to

get out someone who's addicted heroin.

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If you suggest to them that

you'll, you'll enjoy life more.

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Earning an honest living, a sleeping

regularly exercise, eating healthy,

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they're gonna compare that to the

jolt of pleasure that they get.

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That works every.

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and they're gonna look at the

withdrawal and say, no way am I gonna

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do that, that that sounds square

and I don't wanna live that way.

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This is, this is a better life now.

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Somewhere deep inside, maybe they feel

otherwise, but it's very difficult to, I

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mean, if a, if the person who's addicted

has not themselves said, I'm addicted and

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I want to change, the big thing is to get

them to where they say that themselves.

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So I wanted to talk to people.

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Are experts in addiction.

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And in Holly's case, she drank a

lot of alcohol and then stopped.

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And then her book I highly

recommend because whether you've

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been addicted to alcohol or not, so

much of what she says rings true.

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And so much of her attitude is

so, like she talks about how

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alcohol was such a positive thing

in her life until it wasn't.

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Her, how do I put it?

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Outrage at the world, at a system

around us, which says, I mean, it's

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normalized and made even adorable.

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Like you, have you ever seen like

the shirts that say like, mommy's

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drink champagne or Chardonnay because

babies cry or they have these cute

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little phrases and stuff and she was

seeing like how much society condones

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this and even their attempts to, to

hold things back, drink responsib.

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The first word is drink responsibly.

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The arb modifies it.

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They're still saying drink . That's

the way of like, reducing

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drinking is to say drink.

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And our world is like that.

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And she goes through and learn.

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I mean, she eventually learned

about how alcohol, what it does to

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the, to the body and what it does

to a culture and things like that.

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And, and, and, and the

book is really engaging.

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So I really wanted to have her on.

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She, she's as engaging in conversation.

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So how do.

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If we're addicted to things that fossil

fuels bring, I mean most people, if

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I propose to them a voting packaged

food, they, I mean, I used to have

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ice cream in my freezer always.

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I always had ice cream in the freezer, and

I always had snis of a handover, pretzels

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in my cupboard because I loved them, and

I couldn't think of going without them.

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And I always thought, I'm

eating too much of this stuff.

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But when I finished the package, I'd get.

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Mm.

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Now those things are disgusting to me.

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Like I, there's not enough money

in the world to get me, to get

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me to eat a spoon of ice cream.

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It's just not, not gonna happen.

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Mm.

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I've just, it's, I mean, it really, it

goes to the disgusted center of my brain.

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And she had that too.

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And, but I gotta tell a

story that's not about Holly.

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Definitely read a book if you're trying to

see how you can get around to change your

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behavior to where it's something where you

feel like, I know this is hurting others.

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I know it's hurting myself,

but I can't stop myself when we

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do something we know is wrong.

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We convince ourselves why it's

not, and we suppress the part

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of us that says otherwise.

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But I gotta tell the story

about one time I was walking.

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Washington Square Park, which

is around the corner from me.

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It's sort of my backyard and

I pick up litter every day.

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And since the pandemic, when the

heroin, meth, fentanyl, and crack

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addicts started really populating the

northwest corner of Washington Square

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Park, which is supposed to be, you know,

a really desirable area in the world,

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but I mean, they were encampments of,

of people and, and fentanyl and meth.

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People who use this stuff

just throw garbage every.

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So I told myself, I'm not

gonna retreat from this.

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I go pick up at least three pieces

of litter in Washington Square Park

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just to make sure I'm there and the

people see me caring and acting.

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And so I'm going pick up litter.

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And this one particular day I'm

walking through and there's not

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even a lot of people around, but

when I go pick up something, this

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guy sees me and he says, thank you.

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And he's a construction worker.

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He is wearing one of those bright

yellow vests, somehow off duty.

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He's holding onto the helmet.

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And I don't know what he's doing there,

but we get to talking and I start talking

132

to him about why I pick the stuff up and

I say, you know, it's nice to pick up

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the litter, but what it really does is it

helps reinforce not to buy packaged food.

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I tell him about how, you know, at

that point I'm maybe two, two and a

135

half years into one load of garbage.

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And he's like, wow, that's amazing.

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And I also say how one of the outcomes

of this is that by eating fresh fruit

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all the time, I can eat as much as I

can stuff down my throat because it's.

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Low caloric density.

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You know, you can't eat that much.

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I mean, you can't get fat eating spinach.

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So, and he says, well, I wish

I could do that, but I can't.

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And he indicates that he's

obese and he points to his belly

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and he is like, I can't do it.

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There's nothing I, you

know, I'm too far gone.

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I'd like to be able to

eat that way, but I can't.

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So I point him over there at the

meth and fentanyl people, and they're

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out of earshot, but we can see them.

149

And I say, you know, those people over.

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Are addicted to fentanyl and

meth and things like that.

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And he goes, yeah, I know.

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And I say, I talk to them and

they tell me that they can't stop

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what they're doing, can they?

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And he looks at me and you can

see the gears start turning and

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he says, you're right, I can stop.

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I didn't tell him he could stop.

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I asked him if they could, and they, you

know, I think he knows that they can.

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And I think he knew that he was

using the same excuses that they.

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And then a funny thing happened.

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He gets out some money from his

pocket and he's like, take this.

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And he hands me a $20 bill.

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And I'm like, no, what I,

what are you talking about?

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He goes, take this.

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I'm like, no, I'm not

gonna take your money.

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I don't need it.

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And he goes, it will be more

valuable to me, the lesson if

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you take this money from me.

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I'm like, if this benefits you,

fine, I'll take it and I'll

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give it to some worthy cause.

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And he goes, no, no, spend it on yourself.

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Enjoy it.

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So now the intellectual awareness

that you can stop is different than

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being able to stop being able to stop.

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And the, you know, people go,

they stop and then they, they,

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they're in recovery and then they,

they, what's the, what's the word?

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They not remission when

they go back again.

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And, you know, it, it's a cycle.

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It's, it's difficult, it's challenging.

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It helps a lot to have role models.

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It helps a lot to have support, you

know, giving people facts, telling a

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smoker, here's what happens to your lung.

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Or a drinker, here's what

happened to your liver.

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It's not nearly as effective as

being a role model, showing support,

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non-judgemental support, compassion,

but really having gone through

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it yourself is a really big aid.

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Giving people facts and numbers

not gonna help, not gonna hurt.

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I mean, that helps after they've changed,

but getting to where they choose to.

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That's a much different facts

and numbers don't help that.

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I mean, they're not gonna hurt.

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And sometimes there's someone who's

ready to hear it, and that fact might

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be just at just the right time, but

much more about emotional support.

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Listening, listening to understand,

going, you know, meeting them

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where they are, things like that.

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And having done it yourself, that's,

I mean, that's why I'm unplugging.

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Not for, yes, for the individual thing.

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Yes.

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Because I don't wanna pollute

other people, other people's

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air and water and, and world.

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And if you look at, I mean, ugh,

it's heartbreaking to see the

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pictures of se Ghana where, where

a lot of e-waste goes, or just the

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mountains of garbage in other places.

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And people look at that and say, well,

they should have better sanitation.

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I'm like, who's profiting from that?

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That's, that's where I, you know,

I wanna go to the boardrooms of

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the people who decide to extract.

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And form the plastic and things like that.

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Now, that's not to say, you know,

that's not the only thing to do.

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We have to stop ourselves.

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I certainly support Extinction

rebellion@threefifty.org for

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protesting and things like that.

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But something that I saw missing was

how do we lead the most influential

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people with the biggest delta possible?

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Yeah, we gotta do it ourselves first.

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Gotta walk the walk, yeah.

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And find the joy in it.

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I mean, there, there's nothing in me that.

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What a burden, what a chore.

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I'm so deprived.

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What a sacrifice.

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I mean, except in the sense

of, of I've had a bunch of

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religious people on the podcast.

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I've had evangelicals, Trump supporters,

hardcore red state politicians, CEOs

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of very polluting companies, and

there's, the reason I mentioned this

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was in the, in the, certainly in

the evangelical community, the word

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sacrifice is a very positive thing.

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So I do sacrifice in that sense.

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Or the Michael Jordan.

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, like he's, he was the first one there and

last one to leave from every practice.

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Was he sacrificing?

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I think he really enjoyed it.

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And so in that sense, I'm sacrificing if

there's a noble part of it or sacrifice.

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If, if, if people who leave the party

early to go home and they have to feed

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their dog or walk their dog or take care

of their kids, that's not sacrifice.

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I mean, it is, but it isn't.

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So in that sense, yes I am

because it's very reward.

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But it's not, I'm not giving anything up.

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In fact, I, I wish that I had started

earlier and had not bought into the social

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cultural beliefs of what you do, doesn't

matter, and all those lies to support

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here looks at the quote Abraham Lincoln.

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Nothing is more damaging to you than to

do something that you believe is wrong.

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That's where the, that's where,

that's where the, the, the.

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Conflict interruption begins.

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Yeah.

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It's this, this theory of

cognitive dissonance where like

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your actions and your beliefs

are, are in contrary alignment.

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But then you start to as, as you talk

about in many of your writings and

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things start to like just convince

yourself why the actions you did do

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are actually the right ones after all.

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And this idea of sort of like

explaining it to yourself afterwards,

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that we all do, you know, that's one

of the powers of our brain is to.

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Soothe that dissonance with,

with a new explanation, a new,

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a new response afterwards.

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Now there, there's this fabulous

book by Professor Brian, uh,

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Wein, who digs into this concept.

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The book was called Mindless Eating, and

he digs into this idea of choices made

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during like moments of consciousness

where you're stepping and you're

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sort of in your, what are my values?

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What are my choices?

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What am I thinking about,

what I'm choosing to?

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And he focuses within the eating

construct on what can you do in

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that moment of consciousness that

will have influential impact.

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You know, when you're in all those

mindless moments, when you're just

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sort of going through your routines and

just doing things, you know, you had a

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great little thing about talking with

someone who you know, was like, well,

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how do I give up these Keurig pods?

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And you're like, just try it.

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You know?

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What, how would you take, what are,

what are some of your ideas that you

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might share with our listeners about.

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Actionable changes that they can make

and commit to in, you know, quote unquote

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moments of consciousness when they're

stepping back and saying, okay, how

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I wanna lead a more sustainable life.

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What are things they can do in that

moment of consciousness that are

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actionable, that can have a meaningful and

positive, positive, sustainable impact?

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Well, I gotta, with the ke one,

I didn't say just, just try it.

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What happened with her was, that

was a reporter who did a story on

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me and after the story she came back

and said, I wanna do this stuff.

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and what can I do?

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And no, she didn't say what she could do.

280

She said, I don't really know what

I can do about my Keurig cups.

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She had a Keurig machine at home.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And she was like, I don't know what to do.

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And I said, well, I can't say exactly

what to do because I haven't solved that

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problem because I don't drink coffee.

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But I know the process is, you know,

go, I forget exactly what I said, but

287

something like, see if you can go without

for a week and here's what I think will.

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Again, I can't say for sure.

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I think one is it might be that you stop

drinking coffee and you just don't need

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it anymore, in which case problem solved.

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It may be that you find another

solution because people have been

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making coffee for long before Keurig

machines were around, and you'll

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figure out what other people have done.

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And I don't know, maybe it'll be

something like some French press and

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she says, oh, I have a French press.

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Someone gave it to me as a gift.

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It's in my closet.

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Okay, so here's how not

to stop using Keurig.

299

Keurig, uh, single use disposable.

300

Keep using them.

301

Here's how to stop, stop . She

had the solution right there.

302

But as long as we pre, you know, if we

are ever gonna get a jet that can fly,

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or an airplane that can fly across an

ocean carrying a bunch of people, you

304

know, I had the, the chief engineer

of an electro plane company on, and

305

it looks like it's never gonna happen.

306

If it's gonna happen, there's like

with, you know, maybe stopping

307

over in Greenland, but then you

have these huge constraints.

308

but it looks like it'll never happen.

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But if it's ever gonna happen,

here's how not to get there.

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Keep flying with jet fuel.

311

It's like the worst thing to do to, to

get off of jet fuel is to keep using jet

312

fuel and to keep supplying that system.

313

So to, in those moments of

consciousness, when we recognize even

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someone who is heavily addicted to

some of the most addictive stuff.

315

So, you know, a heroin user might,

might think they might have a

316

moment of clarity where they

think, I really wanna stop this.

317

We.

318

I mean, in my case, it's this.

319

If you have that mindset shift,

you have to start a process of

320

continual improvement and expect

that it's gonna take a while.

321

I'm something like 10 years into

genuinely, authentically acting

322

on my values here, and I'm still,

I'm still taking, I'm still

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filling up loads of garbage.

324

I haven't gotten to zero yet,

and it's, I'm, I'm gonna be

325

a long way off, but I hope.

326

The next person can see that

you can live in Manhattan and

327

unplug from the electric grid.

328

And even if you think you can't

make it past two days, you can

329

still make it into the six month

and who knows how much longer.

330

I hope the next people can take

maybe three years or one year to

331

do what I've done in all this time.

332

And I hope that, you know, one of

my biggest hopes is that people

333

will hear, you can unplug over

half the world lives in, in cities.

334

And most people, I would think would feel

like I did on May 21st before I started.

335

Can't be done.

336

How would I even begin?

337

What could be done if a lot of

people, or even if some people

338

think you can do that, I wanna try,

that's the beginning of a movement.

339

And you try and you fail and you try

and you fail and you try and you fail

340

and you try and you succeed and you

bring someone else along the next time.

341

But I think you have to start with

intrinsic internal motivation.

342

If it's extrinsic, oh, New York Times

says I'm supposed to avoid straws.

343

I don't think that's gonna.

344

It's gonna reinforce the feelings.

345

Like when I hear someone say,

here's one little thing you can

346

do for the environment, here's

10 little things you can do.

347

I'm like, why?

348

Say little.

349

Mm-hmm that implies

you don't wanna do it.

350

No one says drink less.

351

Driving Mondays no one says seatbelt.

352

Tuesdays you say, always drive if

you're gonna drive, drive sober.

353

Always that not easy way into it.

354

What I focus on is intrinsic motivation.

355

What are the passions?

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When you think of moments of yourself

in the environment that really matter

357

on the beach, on the mountain, in

the forests with the pet at the

358

park, what are the emotions there?

359

Act on those emotions.

360

It may lead you to do

something really big.

361

People on my podcast have said,

I'm gonna go vegan right now.

362

People have said I'm not, I'm, I had

one executive retired and she said,

363

I'm not gonna buy clothes for a year.

364

Wow.

365

I talked to her a couple weeks into it

and she not only was not buying clothes,

366

she was getting rid of clothes that

were in her closet that she didn't wear.

367

And she was, this is even funny.

368

She was even going through her, seeing

the simplicity that brought to her

369

life, the improvement to her life

of getting rid of needless things.

370

She was going through her Rolodex or

whatever, you know, her computer Rolodex

371

thing, and she was getting rid of

contacts that weren't valuable to her.

372

Wow.

373

And so, You know, if you look on

my blog, you'll see, you'll see a

374

bunch of stuff on the Spock method.

375

If you just listen to episodes of my

podcast, that's, I really think the best.

376

The best way to start is to find

what's inside you that matters and act

377

on that applied to the environment.

378

That's not enough of a description

of Theo Method, I would say values

379

first and then acting on those values.

380

And so like people digging

into themselves to finding.

381

Like what are my values?

382

Right?

383

And a lot of what she said is

communicating to people that,

384

Hey, what are your values when

it comes to even the environment?

385

Like what are your values?

386

And, and when you do that, then what next?

387

What action are you going to take?

388

And, you know, just take that action.

389

So it's pretty amazing.

390

And I wanna clarify intrinsic

values, not extrinsics.

391

Cuz if it's just like, I don't know,

I wanna do nice things for the world.

392

That's not gonna do it, that, you

know, definitely act on those values.

393

But if for these, it has to be like in a

moment when you are, I mean, when you are

394

in the environment and it really changes

you, you know, maybe it was that one

395

time you were on the beach and the sun

just hit the clouds and just that way.

396

Or sometime you're on a mountain and

you climb it yourself or whatever.

397

Like how do you feel then

and there and those emotions?

398

Act on those emotions.

399

Most people, when I ask them what the

environment means to them, almost across

400

the board, their answer is what they

read about, about how the environment is

401

all falling apart and all this outrage.

402

And then they start getting into how

governments, corporations should change.

403

And it's all, you know, it's become

common that we show how much we care

404

by expressing more and more outrage.

405

That's not their experience with the

environment, that's their experience.

406

Reading the news or watching

videos actually in the environment.

407

It takes a while for people to get

there for a lot of people until they

408

do, and then it's, they open up and

it becomes really very meaningful.

409

But so it's not just to say, oh, I'm

so outraged, or I care about my kids.

410

Of course you care about your kids,

but that's separate from you care about

411

the environment before you had kids.

412

It really takes a lot of, how do I.

413

I mean experience to really walk

people through this, getting

414

them off of, how do I put it?

415

You know, the cocktail party

conversations where we show how much

416

we care by our outrage, but it's not

really, it's not, it's still focusing

417

on everyone else should change, but

I still, you know, but I shouldn't.

418

Yeah.

419

See if I ask someone, do

you feed your dog regularly?

420

Do you change your baby's diaper?

421

No one feels guilty if I ask them that,

and I say, do you take into account

422

how your pollution affects others?

423

People are like, oh, stop

making me feel guilty.

424

I'm like, I'm not.

425

If I ask you if you feed your

dog, to me it feels very similar.

426

Why would we care more about

our dogs than about people

427

just because they're far away?

428

Just because I feel like

I can't make a difference.

429

Of course, I can make a difference

about, about my personal actions.

430

So when we get to a point where

when someone asks, you know, are

431

you doing all you can, people feel

like, oh, I'd like to do more.

432

What more can I do?

433

What?

434

What more awesomeness can I

bring to my life by caring more?

435

Acting more about people live

and let live, do unto others

436

as you have them do unto you.

437

Leave it better than you found it.

438

If I give.

439

I mean, for me, it doesn't

feel like giving up anymore.

440

But if I give up flying and in return

I get to live by the value of do

441

unto others as you would have them

do unto you that trade is worth it.

442

Because the contrary is doing

what Lincoln saw was the worst

443

thing you can do to yourself.

444

And, and when you do it, the glory

that comes with it, the, the, the

445

feeling of oneness, of connection

of we're in this together.

446

That's what being human means.

447

It is not.

448

I wanna go to Machu

Picchu, you can't stop me.

449

I'm just gonna go.

450

My mom lives on the other coast.

451

What else can I do?

452

I have to go see her.

453

That's a really hard problem.

454

That's really hard to solve, but the

only way we can do it is by facing it.

455

Speaking of, you know, like deep

seated change, but on big change,

456

you know, one of the things that

you've put forward is this idea.

457

A constitutional amendment to, you know,

here in the US to actually ban pollution.

458

And at one point during one of your

sessions on this, you, you say, if a

459

genie offered me the opportunity to just

immediately have this constitutional

460

amendment, which creates sort of a new

law of the land in place, but without

461

popular support, I wouldn't wish for that.

462

And it, it feels like some of what you're

saying here comes back to that concept of.

463

It has to come from a place of of deep

rooted internal intrinsic, and you're

464

almost speaking about the population

itself as needing to like come to that

465

place of perspective and our convers

conversation and our perspective

466

around things to shift so that it's

not weird and odd and problematic

467

that a father and a daughter are

picking up a piece of litter in a.

468

And that people don't react.

469

What are you doing?

470

That's weird.

471

That's crazy.

472

But in fact, that's normal and celebrated

and commonplace and that big shift.

473

While we're on the topic of, of, of

the constitutional amendment construct,

474

you know, for, for our United States

listeners, any words to share on that?

475

I mean, it, it's some really compell.

476

Thought work that you've put

into this, this construct.

477

I am not interested in any action.

478

That is not a fair democratic process.

479

And this really hit me.

480

I was up at Columbia University's, this is

where I got my PhD, this Lamont Doherty is

481

one of the big research centers there, and

I was up there and, and giving a talk and

482

I was talking, one of the scientists and

the scientists are saying, we gotta get

483

to these senators and tell them this stuff

so that they can vote, blah, blah, blah,

484

you know, to, to vote on some legislation.

485

I'm like, You gotta get popular support

If you're trying to sneak around the

486

public and say, look, we know what's

right and we're gonna tell the senators

487

what's right and they're gonna act

despite the fact, despite if everyone's

488

going around buying SUVs, the senators

are going to go with the public.

489

And if you try to go around that,

well, you know, the oil company is

490

a lot better at it than you are.

491

Everything has to come.

492

And if you try to pass a law that,

that the public, that the public

493

doesn't want, like say prohibition,

you, the public's gonna go against it.

494

That's gonna work against you.

495

The, so if you want to have, if we want

to pass legislation for a carbon tax or

496

pollution tax or various things like that,

but we don't first get popular support

497

and, and how can you get popular support

if you yourself are funding through

498

buying the plane tickets and buying

the plastic bottles and all that stuff?

499

If you're funding the pollution,

you are funding the opposition

500

. So that's not gonna work.

501

You, we have to change ourselves first.

502

That's why, that's why I describe

government acting is the finish line of a.

503

Which itself is then the beginning of yet

another marathon, but at least that one

504

you're going downhill instead of uphill.

505

But the reading about Lincoln led me

to see, you know, I started learning

506

more about the passage of the 13th

Amendment, which ended slavery.

507

This is what the movie was about.

508

The morning.

509

They didn't know that it was gonna,

the movie Lincoln with Daniel Day

510

Lewis in an amazing acting role.

511

And they didn't know it was

gonna pass even the morning of.

512

It was a huge talk about what s

a bipartisan polar polarization.

513

It was hugely, the issue of

slavery was hugely divide.

514

There was a civil war.

515

Right?

516

This is as, as as Republican

versus Democrat as you can get.

517

Although switch back then, and I doubt

you would find any politician today who

518

would suggest repealing that amendment.

519

I mean, talk.

520

I mean a hundred percent agreement.

521

I, I'm sure there are a few people

who'd say, let's bring back slavery.

522

There are people like that, I guess,

but I've never come across one.

523

And you're right.

524

I doubt any politician.

525

No politician is gonna get

elected to office by saying,

526

let's repeal the 13th Amendment.

527

So one morning unexpectedly, I just

woke up and thought, oh, and I also

528

recognize, he described as I think the

King's solution, he realized that there

529

had been decades, centuries, of federal

legislation, judicial interpretation.

530

I mean, the Dred Scott decision

I was reading about, I, I

531

I learned about in school.

532

It said that Africans were never

supposed to be citizens of this country.

533

It's widely regarded as the worst

Supreme Court decision of all.

534

Mm-hmm.

535

. And, but that's what happens when

you don't have popular support.

536

Federal legislation, state

legislation, judicial interpretations.

537

Executive orders.

538

Even the Emancipation proclamation he

recognized would not endure past the war.

539

It was a wartime act.

540

I mean, it was stronger, but

it was like an executive order.

541

These things don't work when

the population is split, but a

542

constitutional amendment I view

as different than legislation.

543

The Constitution is what

constitutes America,

544

and legislation follows our values.

545

If we try to.

546

If we create legislation or create

technology first and hope that that

547

will change our values later, that

backfires the same technology in one set

548

of values will have a different outcome

than in a different set of values.

549

I mean, the cotton gin is, is like my big

example here, but Eli Whitney's cotton gin

550

allowed more output for the same labor.

551

That could mean less labor, it

could have mean less slavery.

552

But the people who are using

them didn't value less slavery.

553

They valued more profit, more power,

so they used it to get more power,

554

and it's regarded as one of the

major contributors to the Civil War.

555

The same technology could have gone

one way, but the values of the people

556

wielding it, they didn't value that.

557

They valued power and money.

558

So I don't want a

constitutional amendment.

559

Like if someone said you could just get a

constitutional amendment, then I know that

560

most people in this country, including

most environmentalists, would oppos.

561

They would, they would continue

doing what they were doing.

562

So step one is go to the people, start

with myself, start with ourselves.

563

And if, if I don't wanna do it, what am

I gonna, what, what, where am I gonna

564

get by passing a law that other people

shouldn't do it when I'm still doing it?

565

No one's gonna vote for that.

566

No senator's gonna vote for that.

567

No state is gonna ratify that.

568

Not when we're paying for the opposite.

569

So we've gotta change ourselves.

570

But in, in the long run, I'm divided

right now as to whether to present

571

it as, as a symbolic idea that,

that we could strive for or actually

572

to say, let's get that amendment.

573

Let's get to a place where our

culture says that amendment

574

makes total sense to me.

575

It does.

576

It's crazy for a lot of people to

think of a world where known pollutes.

577

And I've asked a lot of people, can

you imagine, and I you listening

578

to me right now, just not just you

guys, but everyone listening, can you

579

imagine a world where nobody pollutes?

580

Most people I say that ask cannot

imagine a world where nobody pollutes.

581

They can, I mean, if they can, it's

usually post apocalyptic after some

582

Mad Max outcome where we're living

out of the dirt, which is actually.

583

We did live without pollution up

until, you know, roughly speaking,

584

around 17, 1800, we used lead

pipes, which would pollute, but

585

by and large we didn't pollute.

586

And in that time we went from something

like a thousand individuals homo

587

sapiens, to just about 1,000,000,006

continents living above the Arctic

588

Circle in that time finding.

589

Anesthesia and septic systems

and systems of hygiene.

590

We got had the germ theory of disease.

591

We don't have to leave

any of that stuff up

592

and vaccines, so people think we have to

return to the stone age to not pollute.

593

That's that's a failure of imagination.

594

And that failure of imagination

is one of the biggest problems.

595

It may be our biggest problem if

you ask someone to pollute less.

596

When they believe that the end result of

polluting less, is it atopic hellscape or

597

return to the Stone Age where mothers are

dying on childbirth and 30 years old age

598

and no hospitals and everyone's dying.

599

If you get a cut, then you have to

amputate because a gang green antibiotics

600

existed long before pollution did.

601

But if that's the vision that someone

has, they'll be like, oh yeah, sure.

602

I'll go without straws for a little while.

603

Sure.

604

If that makes you happy.

605

That's where it ends.

606

Cuz I'm not gonna go

any farther than that.

607

I don't wanna give up.

608

I don't wanna have to live

in the mud and die at 30.

609

And that's unable to imagine the world had

actually lived, the world that brought us.

610

Buddha and Laa and Aristotle and

Shakespeare and Bach and Jesus.

611

Mohamed.

612

You guys got me going.

613

It's, I hope I don't sound too high horse.

614

It's really, there's a glory.

615

There's a fun and a freedom and, A

greater connection to family and,

616

and community that it, it's rousing.

617

I've never read a bunch of facts

that got me there and you know,

618

just avoiding packaged food and

then just going for a long time.

619

The joy of eating an

apple is really great.

620

I can't overstate it, and

that's what I'm sharing.

621

Thank you.

622

Thank you so much.

623

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

624

I feel very inspired and I'm sure

that Brian and leaky here are also

625

inspired by a lot of what you shared.

626

Was just wondering if there are any

last words that you'd like to leave

627

before we close out on this episode?

628

Well, I'm gonna riff on you

saying you were inspired.

629

One of the things that got my podcast

started was Seth himself being a guest

630

on my podcast and actually went up.

631

I gambled and I said,

I'll go to where you are.

632

And I took the train up, he met me at

the train station and he was coming from

633

the farmer's market carrying a whole

load of vegetable like these vegetables

634

and recorded together at his place.

635

And he's very infectious, you

know, of like, I wanna do that too.

636

And very inspirational in that way.

637

Also activating people.

638

And so I'm gonna see if I can activate

people listening to this on my podcast

639

and in my leadership consulting training.

640

I like to work with

very influential people.

641

Bring them on the podcast to act on the

environmental values so that others can

642

say, oh, someone that I know is doing it.

643

If people listen to me now know,

you know, CEOs, especially polluting

644

companies, elected officials, star

athletes, star singers, star actors,

645

people with large followings, and they

do not have to have experience or.

646

In environmental anything

or sustainability, anything.

647

Most of 'em don't.

648

Then I'd love to have them as guests

on the podcast, or if they're in

649

an organization and they're looking

themselves to change that organization,

650

they could use this mindset shift followed

by continual improvement themselves.

651

And I would like a coach, put

them in touch with me and I'd

652

love to have them as guests.

653

I'd love to work with them and

help them change so that they

654

feel the joy that I do and share.

655

And that intrinsic motivation and that

fun and freedom and joy and community and

656

purpose, and that that's what leads us.

657

Yeah, there's a sense of obligation, but

really coming from intrinsic internal

658

joy, I'd love to help them get there.

659

And so if they go to joshua

poddar.com in the upright corner

660

is to contact and connect with

me, and that's the best way to.

661

That's awesome.

662

That's awesome.

663

Thank you so much.

664

And I'm doing this inspired from Seth

cuz he's so much, I wanna do that too.

665

Like, oh, I wanna bring

my friends in on it.

666

He is an infectious personality

and that power can be powerful.

667

It's, it's that multiplier effect.

668

Yeah.

669

And, and isn't that what we need to get?

670

A lot of people started.

671

I think that's exactly what we need.

672

Thank you so much, Josh.

673

Again, I'm sure that everyone listening to

this has also been inspired and, and will

674

be inspired, you know, listening after on.

675

That's so great, and I feel like

we should do this again, right?

676

So I'm looking forward to another

conversation with you sometime.

677

Thank you so much for joining us on the

podcast today, and see you next time.

678

It's been wonderful for me.

679

I hope I didn't talk too much.

680

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Sessions, a podcast with carbon

681

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682

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683

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684

This is a great way for our community

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685

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686

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687

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688

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689

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690

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691

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692

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693

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