Join Erika Audrey in the latest episode of "Clover Club" as she sits down with the multifaceted local media entrepreneur Keith Pepper. In this engaging conversation, they explore the intersections of civil engagement, entrepreneurship, and personal pursuits like running marathons. But that's not all – tune in to discover Keith's insights on the world of dating and perhaps even a few tips about crafting the perfect salad. It's a dynamic discussion you won't want to miss!

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Welcome to Clover Club, everybody.

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This is our first episode without Kelly.

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So, we're gonna have a little

briefer of an intro because, Kelly's

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not here to ask me how my week is.

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, so my guest today I am so excited to have.

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When I decided to start this

podcast, he was on my short

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list of people that I just knew.

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I had to get up here and get a

microphone in front of his face.

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If you live in Atlanta, you've

probably heard Of this person, I

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feel like he's the Kevin Bacon of

Atlanta, where everybody either knows

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him or knows somebody who knows him.

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And so today, I'm excited

to introduce Keith Pepper.

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Hi, Keith.

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keith: Hi, Erica.

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How was your

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erika: week?

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Thank you so much for asking.

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My week was, actually wonderful,

because as you know, it's starting

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to get, , gorgeous in Atlanta.

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I think it was 60 degrees last night.

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It is so

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keith: nice out this week.

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So nice.

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It's the perfect week.

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erika: Yeah, I described last night the

weather as It actually kind of feels

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like the absence of weather right now.

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So you you don't notice it.

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It's like i'm not too

hot I'm, not too cold.

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There's nothing for me to bitch

about in this very exclusive

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temperature zone, and i'm loving

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keith: it How many hours a day

does that add to your day when

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there's nothing to complain

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erika: about?

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I thought I was the

interviewer here, that's a...

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If I didn't have anything to complain

about, I would move my mouth so much less.

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It's crazy to think about, actually.

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It would probably be very, efficient.

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I should go to one of those,

like, silent meditation retreats.

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keith: As I sit here and nod on

the podcast, is that helpful?

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Yeah.

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erika: You can't see Keith, but he's

sitting here cross legged with his

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little Clark's booties and half of

a headphone on and he's just ready

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to be a man behind the scenes.

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Just

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keith: wondering how long you

would last in a silent retreat.

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erika: Well, I did go on an Ayahuasca

retreat and there was a lot of

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introspection there and I lasted.

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I

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keith: completed it.

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Do you know how you know if

someone's done Ayahuasca?

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erika: The same way they know if

you've run the New York Marathon.

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Touche.

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So I was texting with Keith and he's

like, what do you want to talk about?

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And so I sent him this like very

thoughtful list of like lots of

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different topics of things that

I wanted to discuss with them.

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One of which was that Keith has run

the New York Marathon and all he

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wrote back was New York Marathon, LOL.

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So Keith, , how many times

have you run the New York

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keith: Marathon?

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I've run it three times, but a lot of

people have run the New York Marathon.

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erika: Wow.

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I don't know a lot of people

who go out of their way to tell

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me about it every other week.

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keith: When did I tell you about it?

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Ever?

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erika: Well, how would I know

if you didn't tell me about it?

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I wouldn't.

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I don't know.

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Exactly!

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A wine filled, uh, neighborly evening.

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We had a lot of time

together during COVID.

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keith: Yeah, so, okay, so

Keith and I are neighbors.

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That is how we got to know each other.

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. erika: This is when I feel

like we became friends, Keith.

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I had my first COVID scare, . I got the

memo that I had been exposed to COVID.

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And so I quarantined, and it was

very early in COVID, where everybody

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thought, like, am I gonna die?

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And Keith texted me, and he was like, Do

you want anything from Ticonderoga Club?

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And I was like, Oh my God.

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Yes.

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Cause I'd been trapped in my

house for like 72 hours at

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that point, losing my mind.

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And, uh, you brought me a cob

salad from Ticonderoga club.

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And I swear to God, it turns out I didn't

have COVID, but if I had, I think that

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keith: would have cured me.

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There are easier ways to get a cob

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erika: salad, but it

worked, but it worked.

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It's just the best salad.

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,

keith: There's a lot of great salads, you know, but I I think one of the

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best salads is I don't even know if

it's underrated Is the felini salad?

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Oh

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erika: my god That is the best

salad in the country It is perfect.

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The mozzarella is like fettuccine.

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It's so good.

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keith: Even the dressing, like the

Cisco brand creamy Italian dressing.

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Yes, it's literally Which I would

never eat in any other setting.

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erika: I totally agree, but you put it in

a little clear container with no labeling

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and you're just like, mmm, a delicacy.

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I completely agree with you

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. I almost had that last night actually.

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I know I'm not going.

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keith: You should have called me.

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I would have brought you one.

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erika: Next time.

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My salad delivery man.

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so Keith, okay.

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Will you give us kind of a little

brief elevator pitch of . Who you are

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keith: Sure, so I grew up

Tell us everything about you.

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I am an atlanta native,

which is somewhat rare.

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Yes, although not in this room.

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Yeah, so Was born here.

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My mom's side of the

family is from new york.

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They moved down in the late 50s When she

was in high school my dad Grew up here was

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born somewhere else but moved here when he

was very young and grew up in druid hills.

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So in like the Driving Miss Daisy

era of Atlanta, so my grandmother

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on my dad's side was, uh, friendly

with, , like that crew, so.

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That's so cool.

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, so have, I grew up here, and then did my

parents in the 70s move to the suburbs, so

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we were raised in Dunwoody and then Sandy

Springs, and then I went to the University

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of Georgia, and after school I traveled,

, I'd never been outside the country.

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I may have been to Cancun, like, during...

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I feel like that counts,

but it doesn't count.

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Either, like, freshman year

of college or something.

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Mm hmm.

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And had never been outside the

country, but had a, you know, keen

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interest in international stuff.

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My grandmother was a big

traveler, and I always wanted to

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travel, you know, outside the U.

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S.

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So I went to Europe on a Eurorail pass.

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Yeah.

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This is pre email, pre cell phones.

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This is, like, the early 90s.

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This is 1993.

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Okay.

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So I think I was the last class

from the University of Georgia

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to graduate without email.

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Wow.

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erika: God, that's

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keith: just so crazy to think about.

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It is.

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So, went to Europe and then ended up

living in Israel for most of the year.

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So I was basically gone for

about a year and had more of an

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education in that year than I had

ever doing anything else before.

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So that really awakened me

to things outside of Atlanta.

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, came back, spent some time here,

ended up moving to DC and then

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to New York, and got to New York

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Yeah.

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So it was a wild time.

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It was the first dot com bubble.

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So it was when the internet was

really starting to take off.

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Yeah.

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, got a job, walked in off the street

and got a job at an internet startup.

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And my first job, this was in 2000.

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My first job was.

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, it was all international, because

I told them that I was interested

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in international affairs.

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And so I got a job doing

sales in emerging markets.

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So my first trip I ever took was to India.

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Oh, cool.

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And then Singapore and Australia and

went all over South America, Mexico.

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So for the first two years of my

career, I never took one domestic trip.

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That's awesome.

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It was pretty wild.

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Yeah.

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, yeah.

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So that was a, a great.

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experience.

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I was in New York, for 20 years.

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, I tried to come back to

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And I was, uh, at the time,

just wasn't quite ready.

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I think I needed to move to

Brooklyn, which I did next.

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So I lasted about 15

months here in Atlanta.

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Okay.

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You boomeranged.

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I think, I mean, I think knowing you and

Maybe your podcast audience at the time.

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I was living in New York.

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I had just turned 40 And I was

single and all my friends in New

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York were 40 and single nice and

I got to Atlanta and people were

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like What are you talking about?

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so That was, it was a weird time.

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Like the belt line hadn't, it just opened

and it wasn't, it wasn't even finished.

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So, , it was, you know, just the first

parts of it had, had opened and so

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things were just starting to get going.

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So I went back to New York, and

stayed another seven years or

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so, , before finally I was ready

to come back to Atlanta and I

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got, , got a place here in 2018 and

then commuted for about 18 months.

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Every week between New York and

Atlanta, that's wild because I was in

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an international job again So I was

doing a lot of travel and then I finally

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pulled the plug and was here since right

before the pandemic full time Yeah,

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erika: okay, and you've had a

career shift since you've moved.

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keith: I Have had a career shift

since I moved In fact, I left my job

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at the end of my time in New York.

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So Okay.

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I wanted to be back in Atlanta and I

wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do.

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Mm hmm.

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, it was 2019 and obviously politics

were quite hot in Atlanta, in Georgia.

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Why?

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I'm just kidding.

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And I was looking for something to do to

be a little bit more civically engaged

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in the community and maybe think about my

own business and I, but I had no ideas.

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I was not.

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didn't have an idea to start a business,

so I was looking around at a small

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business broker, and that's where I

discovered this group of local newspapers

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that was for sale, and it was literally

print newspapers that were distributed

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through direct mail in about five

communities around Atlanta, Buckhead.

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Brookhaven and then in town Atlanta.

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Yeah.

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And the person that , had started

them was turning 70 and he was

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looking for a succession plan.

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Wasn't a family member

that was looking to do it.

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So I started talking to him and earlier

in my career when I was very, very young,

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I worked in radio and, and I worked

at WSB radio when I was 16 years old.

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So, and I worked there

all through high school.

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Okay.

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All through college.

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It actually was the epitome of not cool.

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Really?

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It sounds cool.

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It was cool for me, but it wasn't

like a cool thing to be into radio.

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erika: You're like ahead of your time.

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keith: It was, yeah, maybe.

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And way before podcasts,

way before digital.

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And, I got really excited.

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I thought, this is really cool.

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And it tapped into my passion about media.

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and I went to a bunch of friends and

I said, please talk me out of this.

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This is crazy.

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I thought it was easy

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erika: for them to come up with reasons

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keith: No one people that know me

for 40 years and people that know me

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for four months all said Seems like

a great fit like you've got really

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yeah, it was shocking and It was yeah,

so we were able to strike a deal And

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it was covet because no, I mean so

no one Wanted to buy this company.

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It was, uh, people were not

lining up to buy newspapers, let

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erika: alone in a pandemic, especially

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keith: in a pandemic.

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Yeah.

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So I was able to, put together

a deal and I had a plan.

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And the day after we closed the deal,

uh, the AJC interviewed me when actually

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you play a big part in this, because

if you remember that we did the deal.

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And then the AJC called, and

they wanted to do this story,

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and they needed a picture.

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Oh yeah!

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And I had no headshots, and also, for

the previous I mean, year and a half.

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I hadn't cut my hair.

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Yeah.

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. So , so I was not really

ready for prime time.

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Keith

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erika: looked like a

ragamuffin throughout Covid.

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It was a vibe.

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It worked

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keith: until I suddenly had to

be, have my picture in the paper.

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Yeah.

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So you were gracious enough to take

uh, I got a haircut and then Yeah.

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You took, I documented the first,

uh, headshot that I still use

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erika: today.

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You do still use it?

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Yeah.

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Oh.

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Am I gonna get any like

commissions on this?

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Well, we

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keith: probably need to update,

because owning a newspaper has

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given me a few more gray hairs

in the last two and a half years.

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Um, anyway, so the AJC wrote a column, and

the columnist Bill Torpy, who is really

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the last of the, you know, the classic

newspaper columnists of, previous eras,

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wrote this very funny, very, accurate

column but in it he called me a nut.

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Who is this.

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I had to find out out of morbid curiosity,

who this nut is that bought a newspaper.

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That's a tagline.

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Yeah, so, the second month,

we were, Moving along, I think

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our revenue fell about 20%.

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Okay.

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And I sat on the floor of my

loft in the fetal position.

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What have I was like, what have I done?

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I've never owned a business before.

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Oh, Keith.

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I had never had my name on the checks.

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Mm hmm.

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Um, anyway, so I looked back at the plan

that I put together when we started and

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we got back on track and The first year

we grew, I think, about 16, 17 percent.

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Mm hmm.

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, and then we grew again the next year.

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And it's been great having the best time.

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It is the perfect, , job for me.

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Yeah.

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And it's been, it's been great, so.

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erika: It's , really impressive,

uh, knowing you from kind of before,

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during, and after it makes sense

to me that somebody would refer

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to you as a nut for buying a...

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Are you taking a break?

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keith: I'm stretching.

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I mean, I'm

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erika: adjusting.

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Keith just like took off his headphones.

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Just like,

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keith: are we done?

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I can't.

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I, I, I, so, I worked in

radio when I was young.

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Yeah.

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And my dream was to be on the radio.

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Mm hmm.

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And I would sit in my bed as a kid.

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Many people have these stories

and, and announce the sports games.

305

Uh huh.

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And I thought, like, this

is my dream to be in radio.

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Yeah.

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And, And then I realized

I have a terrible voice.

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I don't agree.

310

It's very sleepy.

311

So, you should advise people at

the beginning of this podcast.

312

If you listen on 2.

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0, it sounds great.

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erika: Do not listen while operating

heavy machinery or driving.

315

keith: Do not.

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But, now I lost track of the question.

317

I don't

318

erika: think there was a

question, but that makes me,

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I feel like I need to share.

320

Keith always smells like lavender,

which I feel like is the way

321

you just described your voice.

322

Just like real soothing and relaxing,

and I don't think that's a bad thing.

323

Does it smell like lavender?

324

keith: Well, there are worse things.

325

Thank you, yeah.

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I have, I have a very

heightened sense of smell.

327

Do you?

328

I don't know why, and my father

clearly lacked a sense of smell because

329

he would drown himself in cologne.

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Oh man.

331

So, I'm super aware of, smells.

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Okay.

333

That makes sense.

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erika: So, I don't know.

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You're, you're course correcting from dad.

336

keith: But I do have

lavender candles, I guess.

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erika: Don't you put

lavender stuff on poppy?

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I feel like Keith douses his

designer dog in like Aesop and then he

339

keith: smells like her.

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erika: Keith I have a question

you said something earlier.

341

It's made me think the Energy

and, , feel of being in New York

342

as the Internet was emerging.

343

Does that feel comparable to what

you're seeing happen with AI now?

344

Like, is this the precipice of the

next kind of big, game changing thing?

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keith: Can I put that into the chat,

GPT, and see what the answer is?

346

Um, I think so, yeah.

347

I mean, it is, it's,

348

Yeah, I mean, whereas the Internet

And, I mean, technology always , is

349

allowing people to do things faster

and to scale things and to, , you

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know, change every industry.

351

, I, you know, I think AI will

change the internet industry,

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I guess, or is changing it.

353

I mean, it's, it's, it's, sure,

but it's a, it's a, it's a next

354

extension of the internet.

355

I mean, I think a lot of the,

the most recent AI stuff is.

356

And I don't really understand how

it happened so quickly, overnight.

357

Mm-hmm.

358

Or chat.

359

G b T suddenly was ready for consumer use.

360

Right.

361

Yeah.

362

Because you've been using AI

and, and Gmail, or you've been

363

using AI and Grammarly mm-hmm.

364

, , those are all ai Sure.

365

Driven stuff.

366

But it's, I mean like, like

everything in technology where once

367

it reaches a certain level just,

it just like grows exponentially.

368

Yeah.

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Much fetch faster.

370

Yeah.

371

Um, it's, it's really remarkable.

372

It

373

erika: is remarkable.

374

It's, uh, I think this is scary, but I

also just wonder when I compare the 90s

375

to now, I'm like, I wonder if people were

feeling the same way about the internet.

376

I

377

keith: think so.

378

That they are.

379

I mean, I think people were

feeling the same way about TV.

380

Yeah.

381

When they, when TV came out, I

mean, I think people were feeling

382

the same way about, about any

technology revolution, cars.

383

Yeah.

384

erika: Well, you were

there when TV came out.

385

I mean, what was it like?

386

I don't know.

387

I don't know.

388

Uh, sorry,

389

I love to risk Keith.

390

He's just too fun.

391

keith: I didn't even have a good

comeback, but, but TV is radically

392

changed by, you know, by streaming,

, you know, maybe by AI because AI is

393

what powers the algorithms that put.

394

You know that make it so that you

spend half your night now just flipping

395

through netflix and not watching Network

tv and in a lot of cases probably

396

not even watching netflix because

you can't find What you want to find.

397

So it's just an example of how I think

it's transforming every industry.

398

erika: I agree with that.

399

In one industry it's transforming,

or not transforming, but I, I heard

400

this analogy that I really liked.

401

And it compared modern

day dating to Netflix.

402

So it's like you spend more

time scrolling on Netflix.

403

Like, Oh, like this show looks really

good, but , what if I keep scrolling?

404

There's an even better looking show.

405

And I think people are

treating people like that.

406

Now, , and especially with

like apps and stuff like that.

407

It just seems like there's, there's

too much content at the tip of our

408

fingers and people just can't commit.

409

keith: Yeah.

410

There's, I mean, there's too much

choice and, uh, and, and absolutely.

411

I mean, in TV and in the

way that dating apps work.

412

Yeah.

413

, absolutely.

414

erika: So Keith, you are

in your early fifties.

415

I feel like you've essentially

already shared that, so I'm

416

just going to say it out loud.

417

, but you're single, you've

never been married.

418

Correct.

419

And I wonder, I see that smile.

420

I

421

keith: need to pull up

your list of topics.

422

erika: I, I gave you forewarning.

423

But I wonder, this applies to me,

and it's been becoming more and more.

424

clear to me and I just wonder if you

feel this way also because I think

425

it is different for men and women.

426

, but I've realized as I have been a

business owner and really kind of

427

come into my own and just built a

life that I very much enjoy it makes

428

dating so much harder because you're

like man I've figured it out like

429

you have there's so much somebody

else would have to bring to the table

430

to make it worth Sharing, I guess?

431

, and I wonder if that's something that

you experience or if that's maybe

432

a more female perspective thing.

433

keith: Do you think your

difficulty in sharing with

434

others is why you're not married?

435

erika: Damn, Keith!

436

Um, uh, okay.

437

I've been engaged.

438

Did you know that?

439

No.

440

Yeah, I've been engaged.

441

keith: Oh, thanks for

coming on my podcast.

442

Tell me more.

443

erika: Do you want to get married?

444

keith: Um, I, wow.

445

I think as I get older

I'm more open to it.

446

I mean, as, as not, you know,

an insignificant number of my

447

friends frequently mentioned to me.

448

Mm-hmm.

449

, I'm not getting any younger.

450

Yeah.

451

I mean, I think it's, You

know, I'm watching a lot of my

452

friends, deal with aging parents.

453

And I think it's, you know,

I still feel very young.

454

I think I hopefully act very young,

but, you know, knowing, the numbers.

455

Work against you, it's not gonna, you

know, so it, becomes something I think

456

about more, , probably than I ever have.

457

So

458

erika: prior to this phase of your

life, that it was not a priority?

459

keith: Well, no, clearly not.

460

I mean,

461

erika: that's...

462

Is it something that you just assumed

would always happen and that it

463

didn't, or was it just not even...

464

No, I never,

465

keith: I mean, it's, I

don't know, I mean, one...

466

I was in New York for a long time and

I think we talked about like all of my

467

friends were 40 and single Yeah, so it

just wasn't like why would you get married

468

because it you know, it's you can't live

with another person in New York Yeah,

469

because you know space it's incredibly

expensive It wasn't driven Didn't have

470

a passion or a calling to have kids.

471

Yeah, especially in New York.

472

Oh god You know in a large part because

I thought I could never afford it

473

erika: You're right.

474

No matter how much money

you make you're right.

475

keith: So so it wasn't and then and then

I didn't have The stereotypical Jewish

476

mother like nagging me to get married.

477

Oh, that's true.

478

So it just wasn't something that

was really On my radar and it took

479

me I mean I definitely You know

came into my own later in life.

480

So, I was a late maturer physically,

and I think it took me a long

481

time to get confidence, both

professionally and personally.

482

erika: There's something about being

single as , I mean, I think people

483

might be mad if they hear me in my late

thirties saying like later in life, but

484

I think that being single as a fully

formed adult, you learn so much about

485

yourself and I find it really enjoyable.

486

And to me, the most important

relationship that I have is with myself.

487

And, uh, I think that with every

year older, I get my standards.

488

It's only get higher and higher, and

I'm, like you said, it's a numbers game.

489

It's like you whittle away this pool

of, uh, there's no reason to settle.

490

Life's good.

491

, so it's gotta be this really special

mix of things that would make it worth,

492

keith: you know.

493

Yeah, I mean I have a very rich full life.

494

Yeah family and friends and I'm

lucky in that way and I just have

495

I'm independent so I think that

That's what sort of drives me.

496

I am not, I wish I was as

introspective as you're saying.

497

I wish that I was able to, to do more

of that, but I, I think I'd be kidding

498

myself if I said that was the case.

499

I mean, I think it's

just not how I function.

500

I mean, I have done a

lot of that in my past.

501

Yeah.

502

, but it's not my current.

503

I mean, I'm very, very, very

focused on business and growing it

504

and making sure we're successful.

505

erika: It makes a lot of sense.

506

And that obviously would take up the

prominent bandwidth in your life.

507

keith: Yeah, maybe.

508

I mean, there's a lot of things that I

want to do, and there's a lot of things

509

I do do socially, culturally, where it's

nice to have someone to do that with.

510

It's true.

511

So it's not, it's not something

I'm not interested in.

512

Yeah.

513

, I'm lucky.

514

That I have got a lot of friends that,

that are also single or let me tag along.

515

Yes.

516

, to do things with them.

517

, and that I'm close in.

518

My fam my sisters are here.

519

Mm-hmm.

520

and, and we're, I'm

lucky that we're friends.

521

Yes, you are.

522

erika: So that, that helps.

523

That's huge.

524

. Um, and it's not like it's

hard to get a date in Atlanta.

525

I mean, it's...

526

That part's easy, but it's just like

527

I feel like it's just like finding

somebody you want to consistently see

528

for a long time is the problem, you know,

529

. keith: Um, but you know, I think that

the, it's, the grass is always greener.

530

People, yes, people see

your life or my life.

531

And they say, Oh, I wish I could go

with you tonight to the Eastern to this

532

concert, but I've got back to school

night with my kids, or I told my, husband

533

or wife that I would do such and such.

534

So, but the grass is always greener.

535

I mean, there's days when, you

know, when you had COVID, you wanted

536

someone to bring you a Cobb salad.

537

And luckily there was, luckily

there was someone that was going.

538

Every day to Ticonderoga Club

during the pandemic and that

539

helped get you a Cobb salad.

540

Yeah,

541

erika: I manifested that offer.

542

, keith: I, I think , the relationship

doesn't have to be defined by, uh, what

543

it was like, you know, what traditional, I

mean, even though I'm not naive enough to

544

think that traditional, gender roles or

what have you are still part of society.

545

Sure.

546

Obviously they are, but I

think it's changing quite

547

erika: rapidly.

548

I completely agree with that.

549

Thank

550

keith: God.

551

Yeah, I mean, you're, you're

a great example, right?

552

You're, you know, you're, the way

you live your life, the way you,

553

openly address even this topic.

554

Um, you know, and I think it's,

that's an example for other young

555

women, young, other young women

didn't have that role model to know

556

that they could be business owners,

that they didn't have to be married.

557

And then you see a lot more, you

know, many, many of my contemporaries

558

are, you know, choosing to have.

559

Children on their own.

560

Yeah, and raising them on their own and

don't need That traditional family unit.

561

So I think it's all changed, but if you

want to put me on your checking account

562

erika: I'm a very big

pro, uh, prenup person.

563

I love the idea of, like, yours,

mine, ours, and, , if it's in

564

the mine category, and, you know,

like, being very intentional

565

with cross pollination of funds.

566

, but it is really nice to watch that

whole landscape evolve, because I think

567

that there were limited options for,

I mean, thousands of years of human

568

history, and, uh, I think, I was just

having a conversation with my best

569

friend who's in her late 30s and decided

you know what like I don't fucking

570

want kids and she's felt pressured

like she needs to and she finally

571

just had this concrete realization.

572

But I think even now people are like,

I don't want to do things the way that

573

we've been told we have to do things

and it's really, refreshing to see.

574

Oh, you've been to, is it

Fish or Widespread Panic?

575

Who's the band that you've

been to, or Grateful Dead?

576

You've been to like 47 shows.

577

keith: I've been to 11

Grateful Dead shows.

578

So you, you're, I think what you're

referring to is, is I worked in.

579

You know, corporate jobs and,

you know, you always have to

580

introduce yourself and give three

interesting things about yourself.

581

So, I, like you said, I've

been to 11 Grateful Dead shows.

582

, I've finished in the top 500

of the New York City Marathon.

583

Oh, that's the

584

erika: detail, the top 500.

585

Not just that you've done

it, but that you've finished,

586

like, in a respectful place.

587

keith: And, I've hung out

with Willie Nelson on his bus.

588

erika: Okay.

589

I'm gonna ask the question that

everybody listening wants to know.

590

Did you partake?

591

keith: I did not because he

did not offer and I was sick.

592

So I was staying sort of the 10 years

ago version of six feet away from him.

593

I did not want to get Willie Nelson sick.

594

That would be

595

erika: a dick move.

596

If he had offered you, would

you have smoked a joint

597

keith: with Willie Nelson?

598

Yes, and I was in like

heavy, heavy training.

599

For the New York City Marathon,

and I don't really smoke, although

600

many people say I probably should.

601

And I was prepared to, I was

prepared to definitely partake.

602

If he offered, but he never offered.

603

And he had a joint behind

his ear the whole time.

604

Oh my

605

erika: god, and you're

just like staring at it.

606

Have you ever consumed cannabis?

607

Yes, of course.

608

Okay, so that wouldn't

have been your first time.

609

No, no, no.

610

Okay, okay,

611

keith: okay.

612

But not, but not, not a ton.

613

I, uh, I missed.

614

The high school years, um, mostly because

my mom was sick and I was like sort of

615

like staying straight and narrow and then,

the only times during college was usually

616

when I was, this sounds, I can't believe

I'm going to say this, when I was drinking

617

and then I would just fall asleep.

618

So it never really took, and

then I was a runner for so many

619

years, so I can't smoke, so.

620

That's fair.

621

erika: Well, if you're listening,

Keith's drug of choice is

622

like a light, crisp red wine.

623

LAUGHS

624

. Um, You see I'm using

your rough draft pen.

625

keith: I like it.

626

We just ordered new colors today.

627

What colors?

628

Uh, not sure.

629

I actually gave that decision

over to someone else.

630

Believe it or not.

631

Whoa!

632

erika: Not.

633

Um, swinging back to work a little bit.

634

I think a lot of small business

owners would say that the portion of

635

their business they like the least

is marketing and social media and

636

advertising and just kind of all of

the stuff that's integral to keeping a

637

business growing and flowing, but isn't

actually the point of their business.

638

You own a media company, so of

course that is more the point of

639

your business, but you've done an

exceptional job of scaling things in,

640

what'd you say, two and a half years?

641

What are the smartest moves you've

made in that time period that

642

you've seen, , the best ROI on?

643

keith: Well, let me

answer this in two ways.

644

I own a media company that is, uh, we

have print, we have digital, uh, products.

645

And so, We have a built in audience.

646

I mean, we've, we've grown the audience

and we continue to try to develop the

647

audience and grow it in different ways.

648

We actually do very little, almost

to a fault of our own marketing, uh,

649

which we need to get better at, and

I'll tell you why in a second, , so

650

that's, you know, we, because , we have

an audience of people that are coming

651

to us for, news and information and

content on a daily, hopefully multiple

652

times a day, basis, then we've got,

you know, we've got the ability to put

653

marketing messages in front of people.

654

And so how we use social media,

I mean, for us social media

655

as a distribution channel.

656

So it, all of our content

goes into our Facebook stream.

657

A lot of it goes on Instagram.

658

A lot of it goes, unfortunately, onto

Twitter, uh, and, and then some of it,

659

you know, more and more we need to get,

to get better at this goes on to LinkedIn.

660

We actually haven't really taken

advantage of TikTok or Snapchat

661

yet, , although we probably should.

662

It's just a factor of, you know,

people having the staff to do it.

663

, There are some technology tools or AI

tools that are going to help us get

664

information into the format that it

needs to be in to go onto Snapchat or

665

onto reels, for example, but we haven't,

you know, our core competency is writing

666

relatively I don't even want to say

long form because it's comical how short

667

people's attention spans have become,

so we're not doing long form journalism

668

as you would know it in a, you know,

traditional magazine or in, you know,

669

in the New Yorker, but we're doing, you

know, we're doing a, what, the continuum

670

of news, , you know, local, hyper local

news for the communities that we cover,

671

so we just have a built in, , Advantage

or platform in terms of putting out

672

content on a daily basis where a small

business person that isn't in the content

673

creation business has to then focus.

674

So you are your core core

business is not creating content.

675

Doing this podcast is a great example

of how you're a media company now.

676

So you've become so you

have an audience, right?

677

You're taking your assets in this

case, which is your personality and the

678

experiences that you've lived and your

experiences in business and life, and then

679

you're putting it out in a media product.

680

So you're in the media game.

681

So now businesses have the ability to

cut out and, you know, traditionally

682

they would have to go to a media company.

683

So a publisher, a newspaper, a TV

station, a radio station, a billboard,

684

And I think that's all there was.

685

Yeah.

686

And you'd have to purchase

airtime or convince them that

687

your story was worth telling.

688

Now you can fire up your laptop and

you can record a podcast and then

689

you can have this podcast around the

world in, you know, less than an hour.

690

erika: Well, so Keith, as a, , budding

media company owner, what do I do?

691

How do I be successful?

692

What do I do now?

693

keith: I think you're doing it.

694

I mean, the first thing you

have to do is commit to do it.

695

I'm committed.

696

I think that you have to...

697

Be consistent.

698

Mm-hmm.

699

and put things out.

700

So you're creating, I think that

for, you know, and, and this is both

701

what I consume and ideally what we

put out, it's about consistency.

702

Mm-hmm.

703

, I think it's about, , Consistency, meaning

it's going to come out every week or, and

704

it's also going to be relatively the same.

705

So I think that people,

people don't like surprises.

706

And I'm not just talking about 52 year old

OCD single men with dogs that smell like

707

lavender, but people like consistency.

708

And so this is one of the things that

I think we've done really well is,,

709

You know, you know, in our products,

what you're going to get every day,

710

it doesn't, it comes at the same time.

711

It looks the same.

712

It's the same order.

713

All that stuff matters.

714

Yeah, there's

715

erika: comfort

716

keith: and predictability.

717

There's comfort and predictability,

especially when you're trying to

718

create a daily routine or in your

case, a weekly or biweekly routine.

719

Sure.

720

I think that the risk is that, you know,

this is not your core business, right?

721

So you've got to be, You've got

to be careful about getting off

722

focus, um, what your core business

is and how you make your money.

723

Because I think that your, your podcast

is off to a great start and I'm sorry

724

if the trends stop running into a

brick wall with this episode, but , you

725

know, it's not how you're going to,

and I don't even think you're actually

726

shaping it this way because you're

not being very commercial about it.

727

You're not.

728

Even talking as much about, you know, we

should talk about your business and your,

729

you know, and how you Serve your clients

and how you're growing that but the So

730

it's not going to be your core competency.

731

You got to focus on that and you know,

just as an example, we don't You know,

732

the number of people come to me and say,

like, why don't you guys do a podcast?

733

Why don't you guys do a podcast?

734

Yeah.

735

Because as you know, it

takes a lot of work to

736

erika: do it

737

keith: well.

738

It really does.

739

It's really easy to do a bad podcast.

740

I totally agree with that.

741

It's very easy.

742

And in, in the first time you listen

to a bad podcast, you're not going

743

to go back and listen to another one.

744

It's true.

745

So it's incredibly difficult

to do great podcasts.

746

And so we've partnered with people to

do podcasts, I'm going to be doing a

747

podcast and to dip our toe in that water.

748

And I think it's turned out really

well, W A B E, they're experts

749

at doing audio programming.

750

And so we, you know, we partner

with them to let them do it.

751

And then, and then that's been a better

format for us we have to prioritize

752

even though I want to do everything you

753

erika: can't.

754

Well, you're tapping into something that

I think anybody who is a business owner or

755

would like to be a business owner will run

into and it's the temptation and the pull

756

to go so many different directions and

to do so many things and on one hand Your

757

core competency is the stuff that you're

good at and the stuff you're an expert in.

758

And on the other hand, there are

new skill sets that you should

759

be learning along your way.

760

And it's, I think, just something

you hone over time, but knowing

761

like, Hey, this is worth adding

some new knowledge and pursuing,

762

and hey, this is not, this isn't.

763

You know, , and I think that you could

really, I mean, I, over the course of,

764

uh, Ten years in business have definitely

gone down some roads that ultimately

765

weren't the road for me I mean we did

like picnic basket rentals for a while

766

and it's like nobody wants this and

like just you know But you got to try

767

things But the more you do I think

it's really If you're introspective

768

at all, it's easy to kind of get data

about yourself and about your brand

769

and know, like, hey, this is a choice

that's going to be really great for me.

770

Or, hey, this is something that we

need to outsource because it's just

771

not our expertise and that's not

in alignment with our brand values.

772

So,

773

keith: that's a good point.

774

Yeah, totally.

775

And I think it's about the, what's

the cost of taking those risks, right?

776

Yes.

777

So, you're, you know, the cost

of doing a podcast is, is not.

778

It's not that high.

779

It's a, it's a calculated risk.

780

That's worth taking.

781

Um, you know, maybe picnic

baskets are probably a relatively

782

low risk, but I don't know.

783

Maybe there's a lot of

inventory and there's low risk,

784

erika: low interest.

785

keith: And, uh, although they

probably would have done pretty

786

well during the pandemic.

787

Um, but, but the, But yeah, you

have to, you have to figure out

788

what makes sense for what you're

good at, uh, and then lean into it.

789

I mean, I think that's one of the things,

I don't even know if you asked this

790

question, but I'll say it back to me.

791

But it's, , you know, one of the things

that I've learned thinking about, I

792

didn't want to own my own business.

793

I never wanted to, I never wanted

to like own my own business.

794

I don't, I'm not a risk taker.

795

I said this to, to someone recently.

796

An advisor that I was talking to when

I was giving them the overview of how

797

I got to where I am and how I got into

this, and I said something about not

798

being, and I'm not a risk taker, and I'm

not, and they were, they just laughed,

799

and they said, you know, everyone thinks

that you're a risk taker, like how,

800

what kind of crazy person buys this

newspaper, but it was a calculated risk.

801

I had, you know, what, and I wish I

had come to this revelation earlier

802

in life, but maybe I wasn't meant to.

803

If you, if you met 16, 15 year old

me, I've almost come like full circle

804

and it's like obsession with, and

it's like understanding of the media.

805

Yeah.

806

Especially local in Atlanta.

807

I mean, and, and it's just, it's sort

of, it's funny to me that that's what's

808

happened and like how I've gotten back.

809

Yeah.

810

And also that I have this global view

and I've traveled, you know, a lot of

811

places and I've lived in other countries

and I've spent a lot of time in other

812

countries, but my world now is so local.

813

I cover local news.

814

I went yesterday to a suburb

30 miles outside of Atlanta

815

and it felt, it felt exotic.

816

I never travel anymore, even though

that was my identity for so long, I was

817

in airports two, three times a week.

818

So anyway, the point being is, is I

have come full circle to the thing

819

that I'm super passionate about.

820

And I'm working more than I've ever

worked, and I'm a work, kind of a worker.

821

Yeah.

822

But I love it.

823

I've never had this much

fun doing what we're doing.

824

But it's hard, and it's especially

hard in, in the industry that we're

825

in because the media industry

is under tremendous pressure.

826

, it's changing very quickly,

it's not particularly, , the,

827

the margins are very small.

828

Um, but it's fun, and so

that makes it worth it.

829

Oh, I totally

830

erika: agree with that.

831

keith: I just remembered a

story that you'll appreciate.

832

, other people may already be asleep, or

have turned the channel, but I once, I

833

was living in New York, and I was living

downtown, uh, I think on 19th street, and

834

a friend wanted to set me up on a date.

835

with a woman that lived on 93rd Street

on the east side and I lived on the west

836

side, and I said It's not gonna work out.

837

I can just tell you like

it's just way too far.

838

Yeah, and It's like the equivalent of

someone wanted to set you up with someone

839

that lived in Woodstock or something

Immediately now with a shout out to all

840

of our listeners in Woodstock Yeah, so I

said I just don't think it's gonna work

841

out and my friend who was married to his

college, you know, been married forever,

842

he looked at me just incredulously and

said, I don't understand how you will

843

run 26 miles to nowhere, but you won't

go to the Upper East Side for a date.

844

erika: That's a solid point, but

also, especially in New York, that

845

is geographically undesirable.

846

That's a completely different experience.

847

It is geographically undesirable.

848

Yeah, like I, and you don't, no,

I support you in that choice.

849

Did you ever even meet her?

850

Or were you just like, no?

851

keith: I think I did meet her later.

852

Okay.

853

Yeah.

854

She came down.

855

But not on every side.

856

I don't know where they get, maybe

one of his parties or something.

857

Okay.

858

, erika: I thought the story was going

to go to like, so I decided to like

859

combine my training with the state.

860

So I ran up,

861

keith: I would have been, I do

enjoy running errands, literally.

862

It's a very effective, way to do things.

863

I used to occasionally stop by

whole foods at the end of a run.

864

Where, where we live and

grab like one or two things.

865

Sumo oranges, avocados.

866

Whatever happened to sumo oranges?

867

erika: They're seasonal and

we're out of the season.

868

But I

869

keith: feel like they weren't as...

870

erika: This was a bad year.

871

This was a bad citrus

year in general though.

872

Like our peach crops were bad.

873

You probably noticed.

874

Yeah, I think it's just like...

875

But citrus definitely took a big hit.

876

We noticed that with the sumo.

877

But the prices didn't.

878

I'm still spending six

dollars on a fucking orange.

879

It better be the best orange

I've ever put in my mouth.

880

I feel like those are

881

keith: personal choices.

882

erika: I know.

883

keith: Only a millennial who doesn't

have kids and owns their own business

884

can spend six dollars on an orange

that may or may not be that good.

885

You know what?

886

erika: I'm okay with being in that

socioeconomic description zone.

887

Reminds me, my little brother came over

the other night and we were hanging

888

out and playing the guitar and I was

like, I know this sounds weird, but

889

I can make a really good smoothie.

890

Like, do you want a smoothie?

891

And he was like, yeah.

892

And so I had some shaved

coconut and I put it on top of

893

the smoothies as like garnish.

894

And my brother was like, man, listen, I

know this is how we're in different tax

895

brackets is that you can afford garnish.

896

And I was like, Oh, I wouldn't

have thought about it that way.

897

But I'm like, that's a good point.

898

Like this is adding

nothing but aesthetics,

899

keith: someone told me recently that

the definition of low key rich, as

900

they called it, uh huh, was you can

walk around with your iPhone without a

901

erika: case.

902

Oh yeah, that is a good sign.

903

It's the quiet luxury.

904

It's those subtle things where

you're like, oh, they've got money.

905

And I think, you know that saying

like, money talks and wealth whispers.

906

An iPhone free case is like a, I'm rich.

907

I never heard that.

908

Really?

909

It's a good one.

910

Do you have advice for people who want

to get involved in the local arena?

911

But, you know, have a full time job

and not a ton of time or money to

912

give, but want to make a difference?

913

keith: That's a good question.

914

I think that, uh, so, I mean, I

think you just have to get involved.

915

And it's, it is, people are exhausted.

916

There's, you know, I mean,

you and I don't have kids.

917

Uh, praise be, but I'm tired every night.

918

You know, I think, I think you

just ha you have to get in involved

919

and put yourself out there, which

is, which is hard for people.

920

But there's mm-hmm.

921

, whether you're volunteering at Trees

Atlanta, or you're, volunteering at a, you

922

know, with local kids or homeless shelter.

923

I think it's just really

important to get involved.

924

Mm-hmm.

925

, And it doesn't have to be about money.

926

Um, but you know, the time, you

know, people need support and people

927

need to be engaged in the community.

928

And we don't have that.

929

We've lost that.

930

We we've lost it way before

COVID, but COVID exacerbated it.

931

Oh, I agree.

932

, and I think it's a lot easier

to be on a local level.

933

To take your jersey, right?

934

Everyone's got a political jersey on at

the national level Which is what you see

935

and you see it stoked by social media.

936

You see it stoked by cable news.

937

Sure , so we try not to do that and

we and I think that for the most

938

part we Are succeeding in that?

939

Um, but you know, you have to know what's

going on but to get involved, You can

940

do it you have you know, you have to

try to do it locally, but it's hard.

941

Um, and if you don't do it You know, if

good people don't do it, it only takes a

942

very few number of bad people to really

screw things up for everyone else.

943

So that's the, the crazy

thing is that numbers.

944

You know, the numbers of people that

are involved in local politics, local

945

elections is, disturbingly small.

946

Yeah.

947

erika: I think people don't realize,

and I think it's easy to ignore as well.

948

, I know that my text threads with friends,

especially as political stuff starts

949

to, ramp up towards election cycles.

950

We have a lot of really strong

opinions about things that directly

951

impact us, but I think that there's,

other than of course voting and just

952

being vocal in conversations with

people who may disagree, I know for

953

me that there's a lot more that I

could be doing and, , Having people

954

like you around me, I feel like you

always keep me, like, Ha, ha, ha, ha.

955

Your face.

956

That's a lot of, that's a lot of pressure.

957

Well, it's, I think you're a good

example of somebody who is able to remain

958

optimistic in, uh, times that I tend to

not remain optimistic, and I feel like

959

you're just good at always being forward

going and keeping your eye on the goal.

960

And, , I think it's easy to not do.

961

Oh, it's really,

962

keith: it's very easy to not do.

963

Yeah.

964

And I mean, I'm, I

appreciate you saying that.

965

I don't know that it's always true,

but I think I, you know, I have the

966

advantage of time, uh, spending a little

bit more time on earth than, than you.

967

But I think it's, I don't know.

968

It's, it's scary times.

969

You know, politics aside which

is certainly scary, but I mean,

970

there's other things that are, you

know, probably going to impact us

971

a lot more that are more scary.

972

You know, mental health, the effects

of COVID on, on kids and teenagers,

973

the effects of social media on kids and

teenagers, , or young adults, , I think

974

is, is incredibly scary and will have

a lot more lasting impacts on society.

975

Than, uh, you know, than

an election here or there.

976

Mm-hmm.

977

. But the elections also have

consequences because Yeah.

978

There's a lot of, uh, laws that are,

that are on the, that are on the books

979

or changing that we never thought would

change, because of local elections.

980

Mm-hmm.

981

people don't pay attention to.

982

So yeah,

983

erika: that's where it all begins.

984

And then, sometimes, once the train has

left the station, there's no going back.

985

And so, I feel like, I appreciate that

when something, or I hear whispers of

986

things happening in Atlanta, I feel

like Keith is somebody I can text and be

987

like, hey, what's the story with this?

988

And you're just like, it's fine.

989

Or, you know what I mean?

990

I think you always have

an optimistic angle on it.

991

Which, would you consider

yourself an optimist?

992

Like, is that your

disposition with all things?

993

keith: I had a call earlier today with

a friend who was asking me about the

994

media industry, and I said, and he, I've

worked with him for years in New York,

995

and he was like, how are things going?

996

And I'm like, I don't have

anything to complain about.

997

Yeah.

998

I was like, it's really weird.

999

I have like three hours

more in my day every day.

00:46:46,881 --> 00:46:48,201

But, I mean, I think,

00:46:48,201 --> 00:46:52,921

I think I've learned to be more

optimistic now because, you know,

00:46:52,971 --> 00:46:59,311

in this role, which, with, which has

leadership or quasi leadership, you

00:46:59,311 --> 00:47:01,771

know, elements to it in the community,

whether it's through different

00:47:01,781 --> 00:47:03,141

nonprofits that I'm involved with.

00:47:03,151 --> 00:47:08,241

So I try to be optimistic, but

it's, you know, it's really scary.

00:47:08,241 --> 00:47:12,091

I mean, I, I don't have my own

kids, but I have a lot of nieces and

00:47:12,091 --> 00:47:15,391

nephews that are in there that are

teenagers and now going off to college.

00:47:15,421 --> 00:47:18,291

And I think, , if you don't have hope.

00:47:19,156 --> 00:47:23,106

That the kids will do, I mean, I

guess I have hope that they'll do

00:47:23,116 --> 00:47:26,136

better, but it's, I don't know,

it's, it's, it's a little bit

00:47:26,136 --> 00:47:27,886

scary, but I'm generally optimistic.

00:47:27,886 --> 00:47:30,996

I mean, things are, things are

good, and I'm having fun, so.

00:47:31,626 --> 00:47:34,366

erika: I mean, at the end of the day, I

think that is all that matters, because

00:47:34,426 --> 00:47:38,189

it's, There's no point in killing yourself

at work if you're not going to enjoy any

00:47:38,189 --> 00:47:42,389

fruits of your labor or wake up at 70 and

just be like, now I'll take that trip.

00:47:42,429 --> 00:47:44,689

And it's like, your knees cannot

handle those cobblestones.

00:47:44,689 --> 00:47:47,409

Like you got to just be present.

00:47:48,009 --> 00:47:48,229

Well,

00:47:48,229 --> 00:47:52,739

keith: I mean, having run a lot of

marathons and a lot of miles, my knees

00:47:52,759 --> 00:47:58,459

are actually shockingly good shape,

but, , yeah, but I'm also, I mean, that.

00:47:58,478 --> 00:48:01,598

Your, your point there, you're, you

do a much better job of taking trips

00:48:01,603 --> 00:48:04,478

and enjoying things more than I do.

00:48:04,478 --> 00:48:09,548

I mean, I'm in a phase of where I am

with the company and of my life where

00:48:09,548 --> 00:48:13,388

I've never worked more, I went away

this summer on a trip to, to Cuba.

00:48:13,748 --> 00:48:13,838

Mm-hmm.

00:48:14,078 --> 00:48:17,558

, which has very, very,

intermittent internet access.

00:48:17,678 --> 00:48:18,008

Oh, yeah.

00:48:18,078 --> 00:48:21,824

And it was incredibly stressful because

being a small business owner, Um, you

00:48:21,824 --> 00:48:26,284

know, being out of touch and everything

was fine and things obviously, you

00:48:26,284 --> 00:48:29,694

know, go on and they don't need me at

every little moment, but I'm in that

00:48:29,694 --> 00:48:33,454

phase of being a small business owner

where, you know, I don't think I'm

00:48:33,454 --> 00:48:38,514

enjoying that, that balance, but I,

mean, I love what I'm doing, so it's,

00:48:38,524 --> 00:48:43,264

it doesn't even feel, , like work and I

can, it's just such a cliche, but I can.

00:48:43,264 --> 00:48:47,624

Weave in things that I love to do

with work too, which is why this is a

00:48:47,624 --> 00:48:49,634

job that's uniquely suited for me.

00:48:49,814 --> 00:48:50,684

erika: What's an example of

00:48:50,684 --> 00:48:51,124

keith: that, Keith?

00:48:51,124 --> 00:48:52,464

Well, food.

00:48:52,464 --> 00:48:53,784

So I love eating out.

00:48:53,814 --> 00:48:55,034

I love going to

00:48:55,034 --> 00:48:55,444

erika: restaurants.

00:48:55,464 --> 00:48:58,554

You can find Keith perched on

a barstool at Miller Union like

00:48:58,554 --> 00:48:59,874

five out of seven nights a week.

00:48:59,974 --> 00:49:00,124

I

00:49:00,274 --> 00:49:02,564

keith: love going to eat at the bar.

00:49:03,224 --> 00:49:05,464

At different restaurants.

00:49:05,934 --> 00:49:07,224

Or the same restaurant a lot.

00:49:08,754 --> 00:49:11,814

So that's something that gives me a

lot of comfort and it's something that

00:49:11,814 --> 00:49:16,364

we cover and it's something that, you

know, is, how I like to spend my time,

00:49:16,724 --> 00:49:23,644

music, , political events or community

events, so I, you know, being a publisher

00:49:23,654 --> 00:49:28,244

now, I take a different approach to, to

political events, but, , this, you know,

00:49:28,244 --> 00:49:32,104

for these two years I'm serving as chair

of the Atlanta Press Club, which is an

00:49:32,144 --> 00:49:37,384

amazing experience, so it gets, You know,

it puts me in a lot of, you know, events

00:49:37,384 --> 00:49:40,754

and rooms with really interesting people.

00:49:41,214 --> 00:49:45,984

So last week I got to introduce the

CDC director and got to sit with her at

00:49:45,984 --> 00:49:48,114

lunch and, talk about her experience.

00:49:48,824 --> 00:49:51,064

So those are the things that I would

never, those are the things that I would

00:49:51,064 --> 00:49:54,054

never get to do in a different job.

00:49:54,054 --> 00:49:55,944

So, you know, that is where.

00:49:55,944 --> 00:49:59,874

That intersection of work

and to me that's fun, right?

00:49:59,954 --> 00:50:00,464

Yeah.

00:50:00,554 --> 00:50:01,664

That's what I love to do.

00:50:02,494 --> 00:50:06,254

erika: I think, that really

applies to what I do as well.

00:50:06,264 --> 00:50:11,184

Like I have been very intentional

with selling things that are things

00:50:11,184 --> 00:50:13,484

that I actually enjoy and love.

00:50:13,484 --> 00:50:14,874

So it really doesn't feel like work.

00:50:15,174 --> 00:50:21,484

And although, I mean, I do work a lot

and luckily I have the Availability

00:50:21,484 --> 00:50:24,334

to do that because I don't have kids

and you know, my life is my life.

00:50:24,674 --> 00:50:28,224

It is so wonderful when you

can harmonize things that you

00:50:28,234 --> 00:50:31,114

love with things that pay you.

00:50:31,764 --> 00:50:33,714

It's like, I think that's the sweet spot.

00:50:33,734 --> 00:50:37,564

Even if you are working a lot and

even if you do need to be kind of,

00:50:37,964 --> 00:50:42,344

you know, email available when you're

on vacation and stuff like that.

00:50:42,354 --> 00:50:44,874

It's so worth it because it just feels

00:50:44,874 --> 00:50:45,224

keith: good.

00:50:45,224 --> 00:50:48,794

Yeah, and especially when you're doing,

when you're growing and you're, you

00:50:48,794 --> 00:50:52,944

know, you're bringing more people in,

you're giving people opportunities, and

00:50:52,944 --> 00:50:54,224

you're producing great product, right?

00:50:54,224 --> 00:50:55,644

, you sell great products.

00:50:55,644 --> 00:50:58,494

You have great experience,

, provide great services.

00:50:58,494 --> 00:51:03,034

So we, you know, we, if we can strive

to put out great products into the

00:51:03,034 --> 00:51:04,614

world, then it makes it even more fun.

00:51:04,864 --> 00:51:05,364

erika: I agree.

00:51:06,014 --> 00:51:11,549

Keith, are you somebody who

is, uh, in, in regards to work?

00:51:11,549 --> 00:51:16,949

Like, are you able to appreciate

and enjoy the successes that you've

00:51:16,949 --> 00:51:20,969

had or are you somebody who's always

looking at the next benchmark?

00:51:20,969 --> 00:51:22,859

keith: So this may contradict

'cause you just called me

00:51:22,859 --> 00:51:25,629

optimistic . Um, you agreed.

00:51:27,119 --> 00:51:28,199

Uh, no.

00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:30,989

I mean, I'm still a new business owner.

00:51:30,989 --> 00:51:31,079

Mm-hmm.

00:51:31,319 --> 00:51:35,729

. So I, I mean, I think, you know,

the, I don't think I ever thought.

00:51:36,089 --> 00:51:38,389

I mean, people didn't think

that we could do this.

00:51:38,429 --> 00:51:41,949

People thought this was crazy and

it still may turn out to be crazy.

00:51:42,029 --> 00:51:42,359

Yeah.

00:51:42,409 --> 00:51:46,769

, you know, we grew, I think I told

you this, my second month our revenue

00:51:46,769 --> 00:51:51,279

fell 20 percent and I sat down on

the floor in the fetal position

00:51:51,279 --> 00:51:52,699

and was like, what have I done?

00:51:53,249 --> 00:51:58,779

Because if you open up, Any news

story about the news industry,

00:51:59,369 --> 00:52:01,139

it will paralyze you, right?

00:52:01,149 --> 00:52:05,769

It's just, it's layoffs, it's

bankruptcies, it's equity, it's

00:52:05,809 --> 00:52:12,329

hedge funds taking over and gutting

newspapers, it's national companies

00:52:12,329 --> 00:52:15,539

running local media companies.

00:52:15,539 --> 00:52:20,934

I think that of the local TV stations

in Atlanta, only one locally owned.

00:52:21,094 --> 00:52:21,374

Um,

00:52:21,394 --> 00:52:24,904

erika: that's crazy and also something

that I feel like you're like the only

00:52:24,904 --> 00:52:26,184

type of person who knows this shit.

00:52:26,194 --> 00:52:28,944

And so it's really interesting

to hear, you know, well, yeah.

00:52:28,944 --> 00:52:30,824

So I'm surprised to hear that.

00:52:30,824 --> 00:52:31,064

Yeah.

00:52:31,174 --> 00:52:35,274

keith: So, being a new business owner

and, you know, being someone that's

00:52:35,274 --> 00:52:40,354

run marathons and tried to run them

at a relatively competitive, um,

00:52:41,124 --> 00:52:41,614

erika: you know, place.

00:52:41,814 --> 00:52:45,144

keith: But that, you know, I do have

a piece of my personality that just

00:52:45,144 --> 00:52:46,614

like pushes and pushes and pushes.

00:52:46,614 --> 00:52:49,854

So, so I'm really proud

of what we're doing.

00:52:49,894 --> 00:52:53,154

but having that first taste of

growing and this being my first

00:52:53,154 --> 00:52:55,204

business, now I want to grow more.

00:52:55,264 --> 00:52:55,884

Yeah, it feels good.

00:52:56,414 --> 00:53:02,244

You know, but I also I have on

my monitor at home a sticky note

00:53:02,274 --> 00:53:04,324

that says, meaningful, not massive.

00:53:05,194 --> 00:53:09,074

So there's part of me that,

you know, wants to grow, wants

00:53:09,074 --> 00:53:10,394

to be a perfectionist, right?

00:53:10,394 --> 00:53:14,844

I see all the, you know, people are very

generous about pointing out typos that

00:53:14,844 --> 00:53:17,744

we have in the paper or in our emails.

00:53:20,064 --> 00:53:22,974

But I also see them and internalize them.

00:53:23,404 --> 00:53:25,654

So, you know, I want it to be perfect.

00:53:25,814 --> 00:53:28,144

It's not, I realize it's not realistic.

00:53:28,504 --> 00:53:34,304

Um, but I do, you know, I do push us

and push myself, you know, to be better.

00:53:34,464 --> 00:53:34,794

erika: Yeah.

00:53:34,824 --> 00:53:36,074

So that makes sense.

00:53:36,104 --> 00:53:38,394

It's like the progress

over perfection thing.

00:53:38,404 --> 00:53:41,284

It's better , to get something out

into the world and know that you

00:53:41,284 --> 00:53:43,564

can refine and let things evolve.

00:53:43,894 --> 00:53:45,154

Cause I think a lot of people have this.

00:53:45,154 --> 00:53:49,104

Paralysis of perfection that if they can't

do things perfectly they don't want to do

00:53:49,104 --> 00:53:53,294

it at all and I definitely struggle with

that I mean, I there was like almost a

00:53:53,294 --> 00:53:57,494

full year between The seed being planted

of doing this podcast and me actually

00:53:57,494 --> 00:54:00,994

doing it because I was like I need the

best microphones I need a good logo.

00:54:01,134 --> 00:54:03,644

I need you know, this list of I

was like if I'm gonna do this I've

00:54:03,644 --> 00:54:05,494

got to do this in the best way.

00:54:05,544 --> 00:54:13,034

I am capable of doing But could I have

gotten this out six months sooner Yeah,

00:54:13,034 --> 00:54:14,284

keith: but I think that's okay.

00:54:14,344 --> 00:54:18,054

Depending on your position, whether

that's you know, if you have investors

00:54:18,514 --> 00:54:22,624

in your business, right, that creates

a different dynamic for perfection.

00:54:22,644 --> 00:54:25,869

I mean, there's a saying and, you

know, I guess everywhere there's

00:54:25,869 --> 00:54:29,169

a saying that's, you know, don't

let perfect be the enemy of good.

00:54:29,429 --> 00:54:30,609

Oh, I haven't ever heard

00:54:30,609 --> 00:54:30,869

erika: that.

00:54:31,099 --> 00:54:31,529

You haven't?

00:54:31,559 --> 00:54:32,939

No, but I like,

00:54:32,939 --> 00:54:34,199

keith: that's exactly what I'm saying.

00:54:34,219 --> 00:54:36,749

You haven't worked in corporate settings?

00:54:36,799 --> 00:54:38,719

I ever heard of thinking outside the box?

00:54:38,869 --> 00:54:39,929

I have heard of that.

00:54:40,089 --> 00:54:41,439

Have you ever heard of low hanging fruit?

00:54:41,559 --> 00:54:42,139

Yeah.

00:54:42,439 --> 00:54:43,419

Have you ever heard of circle back?

00:54:43,529 --> 00:54:43,549

Yeah.

00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:46,439

Put a pin in it.

00:54:46,759 --> 00:54:47,599

So put a pin in it.

00:54:47,609 --> 00:54:52,249

So, you know, that, you know,

whether, you know, this, the.

00:54:52,669 --> 00:54:56,109

Perspective of your business,

whether you have investors, what your

00:54:56,109 --> 00:54:58,329

cost basis are every month, right?

00:54:58,409 --> 00:55:03,549

I mean, there's, you know, there's months

we've, we just had a record month in

00:55:03,629 --> 00:55:07,019

ad sales, which is our metric of how

we, you know, how we run the business.

00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,189

Um, but that was after a

really difficult summer.

00:55:11,769 --> 00:55:16,469

So things even out, it took me a long

time to get comfortable with that.

00:55:16,529 --> 00:55:21,899

And I'm still, you know, two and a half

years in as a first time business owner,

00:55:23,019 --> 00:55:26,749

I think I probably do a little bit less

these days, but I still check the bank

00:55:26,749 --> 00:55:30,269

account on a daily basis pretty much.

00:55:30,829 --> 00:55:38,169

Because it's still new to me and it's a

little bit, I'm really proud of what we're

00:55:38,169 --> 00:55:39,739

building and really proud of our success.

00:55:39,739 --> 00:55:44,999

But it's also, you know, I realized we

have to stay on our game because it's not

00:55:45,049 --> 00:55:45,769

erika: guaranteed.

00:55:45,899 --> 00:55:46,839

Nothing's guaranteed.

00:55:47,839 --> 00:55:50,589

It's interesting being a business owner.

00:55:51,739 --> 00:55:56,319

the imagery of you in the fetal

position after that bad month.

00:55:56,349 --> 00:55:59,939

I mean, everyone has had their

handful of days like that.

00:55:59,939 --> 00:56:00,669

You'll have more.

00:56:01,039 --> 00:56:04,079

, but then you compare that to

like, oh, my newsletter just

00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:05,909

made 50, 000 people in two years.

00:56:05,909 --> 00:56:09,149

Like, these really amazing

kind of peaks and valleys.

00:56:09,459 --> 00:56:10,629

And that's all it is.

00:56:10,629 --> 00:56:14,889

It's just being able to adapt and know

that even if you're in one of those

00:56:14,889 --> 00:56:18,569

low points, there's another, there's

another high around the corner, but

00:56:18,569 --> 00:56:20,569

you just have to You just have to keep

00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:21,149

keith: going.

00:56:21,149 --> 00:56:21,849

Yeah, absolutely.

00:56:21,849 --> 00:56:24,319

But it was, it took me

a minute to get there.

00:56:24,329 --> 00:56:28,089

Because I had not been, I

mean, yes, you're right.

00:56:28,169 --> 00:56:30,839

And these are things that

you know academically.

00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:32,569

Yeah, in practice it's different.

00:56:32,569 --> 00:56:36,689

But it's a lot harder to, you know,

in the heat of, you know, in the

00:56:36,739 --> 00:56:40,919

heat of the moment, when you're,

when you're a new business owner,

00:56:40,919 --> 00:56:45,659

when you're new to the team, Um, when

you're trying to, when you believe,

00:56:45,669 --> 00:56:47,179

even if you believe in your vision.

00:56:47,689 --> 00:56:51,669

And you believe in what you want to

do, you know, you have to get the,

00:56:52,049 --> 00:56:55,889

you have to get people on the team

to see that and to believe in it.

00:56:55,989 --> 00:56:56,359

Yeah.

00:56:56,449 --> 00:57:00,069

, so all those things, uh,

all those things factor in.

00:57:00,389 --> 00:57:01,049

erika: Absolutely.

00:57:01,739 --> 00:57:04,729

Okay, I've got one more thing on my

list, which I haven't shared with you.

00:57:04,799 --> 00:57:09,219

So, there's an item that I carry in the

gift shop that is 100 percent inspired

00:57:09,219 --> 00:57:13,979

by Keith Pepper, and it is our, science

beaker, but it's a decanter for wine.

00:57:14,359 --> 00:57:16,129

And, it's so cool.

00:57:16,159 --> 00:57:18,349

I think it's looks

great on every bar cart.

00:57:18,519 --> 00:57:22,379

It holds an entire bottle of red

wine if you need to decant it.

00:57:22,669 --> 00:57:23,999

keith: but I also can't take credit.

00:57:24,029 --> 00:57:28,079

I just want to give appropriate credit

to this because when I lived in New