In today's episode, Tiffany and Robert discuss our next Deadly Leadership Sin: Wrath. In organizations, Wrath can take many forms mostly centered around "radio silence" - simply a refusal to address or deal with problems within the ecosystem.

As before, we discuss potential remedies which start at the top (big surprise) and may need some more specific ground rules or outside coaching.

Thanks for joining us today and don't forget to hit the subscribe button or reach out at hello@theindustryoftrust.com.

Robert Greiner 0:07

So got some downtime got to read recharges the brain a little bit.

Tiffany Lenz 0:10

Yes.

Yes. sounds so good.

Robert Greiner 0:13

And then you came in and slack was down our world ground to a halt.

Tiffany Lenz 0:17

Oh, man. It's okay. Okay, there was plenty to do plenty to catch up on anyway, like,

well, Oh, right, you

just helped me prioritize, then

Robert Greiner 0:28

I hate Slack, I appreciate it. I don't like it in a work setting. Because it's very hard for me to get things that are assigned to me into OmniFocus. I have an API integration. And I have some stuff working in the background to make that happen. But it's just too easy for stuff to fall through the cracks. And so when it was down, I was thinking, Hey, good riddance, I can do without that today. But we needed a new person on one of the teams I'm over and our whole staffing thing runs on slack. I couldn't get an answer I needed and things were down and things move slower. And so now I'm dependent on it, even though I don't love it.

Tiffany Lenz 1:03

I don't know how people keep up with it. Like, I have a hard time keeping, like just whether it's maybe I'm in too many groups, or I don't know, it's always the immediate over the urgent and so I pay attention to the urgent and not the important. Just because

Robert Greiner 1:21

it's too hard to tell like something ultra important could come in like a general channel.

Tiffany Lenz 1:26

Yes, yeah. It's too many like I'm I hate that we're even recording, I'm getting embarrassed that I have 39 that are unread right now. But I can guarantee you, none of them is urgent. None of them is about actually I can't, there. None of them are from individuals. When an individual or a small group slacks me, I get it almost immediately. and respond. It's the threads like I just I can't I don't keep up with all of them.

Robert Greiner 1:51

You know what you could do many, you could

hit Shift escape. And that marks everything is red. And if it's important, maybe though,

Tiffany Lenz 1:58

If it is important. It'll pop back up again,

Robert Greiner 2:00

shift escape. It's beautiful.

Tiffany Lenz 2:02

Amazing. Thank you for that.

Robert Greiner 2:04

Sure.

Good way more stuff all through the cracks. But

Tiffany Lenz 2:08

Robert Greiner 2:55

Tiffany Lenz 3:38

Yeah, that's true. Which I guess then just makes this topic even more relevant. Like how if we're giving people advice on something as critical as like toxicity in their teams and leadership, how are we helping them if we have signal to noise ratio issues? So do they? And how are we helping them here through for the really important stuff, because I don't like my management style sometimes of just waiting for things to bubble up again, because I know that is putting the burden on someone else to reach out again, and they don't love it. But man Oh, man, there's way too much information out there. That all seems to be mission critical.

Robert Greiner 4:20

Yes. Yes, definitely. Good. I'm glad you had a relaxing break.

Tiffany Lenz 4:24

Thank you.

Robert Greiner 4:25

Glad you survived a major slack outage of 20-21

Tiffany Lenz 4:27

Robert Greiner 4:41

Tiffany Lenz 5:12

Yeah, it was brilliant. I there were there more than two parts to it because I sought to like part one and two. Oh,

Robert Greiner 5:17

really? Okay, I'm gonna go check out part two then. Yeah,

Tiffany Lenz 5:20

it was very clever. Whoever came up with that deserves a promotion.

Robert Greiner 5:24

Ryan Reynolds.

Deadpool. He came up with it says idea. Nice. Yep. Yeah, I love stuff like that. So it was good to see Diana showed it to me.

Tiffany Lenz 5:34

That's pretty funny. Yeah.

Robert Greiner 5:36

So what are we talking about today? What's the topic Seven Deadly leadership sins. Which sin are recovering today?

Tiffany Lenz 5:42

We are covering number five. We're talking about Wrath.

Robert Greiner 5:46

Oooo my favorite.

Tiffany Lenz 5:47

Oh, this is one of my favorites, too. As I've talked about this in a couple different executive forums, and the points hit home really clearly. And they're very uncomfortable. Yeah, so I enjoy I enjoy working my way around these. And there's always a little bit of tongue in cheek, but working my way around the around the clock face here. And then and people are like laughing and nodding along and agreeing like oh, yeah, that that makes sense. Blah, blah, blah. And then you get to this one, which is every level of like, passive aggression is how it manifests itself. It's exhibiting blame when things go wrong. And most people are not, not so inappropriate that they would they come out, like outright with blame. But we have ways of passively blaming other people, other departments our equals just in in ways that are fully toxic. And I do talk a bit here, I tend to talk about the frozen middle, which is an expression we all know and love, and it hits home for people. So this is probably my favorite of all of them.

Robert Greiner 7:00

So in my past, I struggled with this as a very early on in my career. Luckily, I got some feedback to address it quickly. Because this was definitely what got you here won't get you there moment. I use humor a lot in the workplace. And when I think it just makes things more interesting and fun, and too I used it as a way to defuse tensions situations. When I got real power, though, and I pointed that humor at people that reported to me, that's not ever a recipe for success. Is that does that fall under wrath? Because I'm thinking I don't normally get like, super angry. But I do feel like this definite, horrible thing of humor at the expense of people have real power over might fall under this one? What do you think

Tiffany Lenz 7:45

It might let's talk through it and see, because your, your, you had a way of, of breaking tension and dealing with contentious situations. But it sounds like you received feedback on that, good feedback around that not being a way that leads to a solution or not being a way that builds trust, or a way that built that brings teammates together. And so much of blame mentality, whether it's done with using humor, or passive aggression, or radio silence or avoidance or whatever, is exactly that. It's designed to separate and tear apart and yes, to bring people together.

Robert Greiner 8:23

And Funny enough, the person Ed, if they're listening, thank you, who gave me this feedback reported to me, he was on the team. He pulled me aside one on one and said, Hey, I don't know if you know what you're doing. But you talk to this person like this the other day, and it really hurt his feelings like he was so heartbroken about it.

Tiffany Lenz 8:46

Nice. Good for him,

Robert Greiner 8:47

I

had no idea it, that was one of the probably worst days of my professional life, because you don't want people to feel you to be the cause of making other people feel terrible. And here, I was thinking that I was such a good leader of people. And it was the complete opposite. And so I owe Ed a lot for that, because I don't know that I would have caught it in time for it. And maybe it would have galvanized into a really bad habit. And who knows. And now I mostly turned to the humor and in a self deprecating way, which I think is really helpful. And then also, I'll do silly things like I'll bring a little red card and yellow card to a meeting and make a scene about it or assign people random points for things are a way to get people involved in a little game or something, which is fine can be a little fun element to it. If other people play along. It's more like improv, but super scared of humor at the expense of those that have role power over and luckily, I haven't had an issue with that sense. And that's one of my I will never do that again,

kind of situations.

Tiffany Lenz 9:30

That's so good. So that goes on your top 20 List of lifetime professional lessons learned

My blooper reel.

Yeah. Awesome. And kudos to you for hearing him for not shaming him or turning it around or even allowing your own sort of ego, embarrassment, pride, whatever to get in the way and miss that critical moment. That's awesome.

Well, thanks.

There are, I've never I've rarely, I have seen people use humor as a deflector. The more typical examples, one sees, I think, are things that sound like that really are more like radio silence, or that's a hands off. That's not my job. So imagine you've been in this scenario where you're having a team meeting talking about an issue. Hi, everybody, here's this problem. And the response is nothing. It's just complete crickets, that to me, an unwillingness to come alongside is a bit of a wrathful response. It's a that's not my job response. It's a I don't want to get my hands dirty, sort of response, based out of fear, based out of misaligned agenda, a, maybe a self motivated agenda, self protection, that is never healthy, because it just it now you're not a team. Like you can call yourselves a leadership team. But what you are is a just a collection of individuals, collective armies of one, if you will,

wow. Yeah, in what got you here won't get you there by Marshall Goldsmith. So bad habit number 16. Not listening. It's what you're talking about which and he says this is the most passive aggressive form of disrespect for your colleagues. So that's the kind of encompasses you said, passive aggressive. There's this level, though, that's hyper disrespectful, to engage in that way, especially. And also unprofessional is maybe the word because you're certainly getting paid to address those issues that you are conveniently leaving to other people's devices to solve.

And there may actually be times where the solution is that or I guess the outcome, or the analysis would be that someone there is another department that is really, truly accountable. But often, even that suggestion is not presented in a way that is, so how do we help them be successful for the good of the team for the good of the whole organization, several different times in this podcast, we've continued to take this up as many levels as possible, where we get to the point of overall alignment, which is, I think, where we have to go back to there's a selflessness to that, that builds that actually builds good teams. So just by default, saying, either nothing, or that's not my job. Neither one of those are helpful, they don't get you any further down the path of actually fixing the problem. In fact, they just isolate. So I love that number. 16. Boy, it is really disrespectful,

which is a little bit more nefarious than avoid just avoidance. But maybe from a personal perspective, it's coming from the same place. They're certainly so number seven on the list of bad habits, speaking when angry, using emotional volatility as a management tool that's got to come into play here, too. It's cold wrath.

Yeah. Yeah. So I sometimes that that emotional volatility, it what I think it does is it creates a shield. It's like self preservation. If someone in a team comes off as volatile, more likely than not, the other members of that team will avoid bringing problems to them at

all costs.

Oh, yeah.

No one wants to deal with a volatile person or an emotionally volatile person. And I think several works circling around, where I think the expression frozen middle even comes from what does a frozen middle mean? It's whether you get there from a an avoidance perspective, a volatile an emotional volatility, approach, a shaming approach and an avoidance no matter how you get there. The whole concept to me and this is incredibly inflammatory is that frozen middle was not that expression wasn't coined by the middle. It was actually coined by the people whom it describes. It's really quite a, an inflammatory accusatory label that was created by the people above it.

Is habit 19 passing the buck, everyone but ourselves. Yes, yeah. If only they man, they just get their stuff together.

Yes, they need to address their dysfunctional problems. They need to follow themselves out, that we come up with these ideas and we roll them down and then the frozen middle, they just get stuck in the frozen middle. So for me this is that wrath encompasses all of this, because there's this sort of like when I think about wrath, it rarely is people who show like outward aggression. That's just it's so unacceptable in our culture that really people do it, thank goodness. But it there's it's a smoldering is the way I think of it just a smoldering set of coals that that kind of sparks up from time to time, a little flame here and there.

Now that's an interesting point. There are diminishing numbers, I have no data to back this up. But I'm pretty sure it's true, I'd bet money that it was true, is there are fewer and fewer scenarios every year on a year over year basis, where leaders are just outright raging. But that idea of smoldering like the oven is hot. And when you're next to a hot oven, even if the building's not on fire, you feel that paired with some of the role power involved, I think you still have their rage side, the anger side of wrath that we're talking about, still comes into play. And people sense that around you. I've been in situations where I'm not talking to them about that. Yeah. And so if you are that way, as a leader, there's no judgement here, we're all making mistakes. This might just happen to be yours or not. You got to know though people aren't coming to you for stuff when there's problems, you're the last person to find out.

And I know this is a complete off topic, rabbit hole, but I can't help but wonder if, when, when real rage issues are not addressed. They don't they no longer manifest themselves in the workplace as frequently I think you're probably right. But if they're not addressed, then whether that's a blame shifting, or an emotional volatility, or a general disrespect for other people, or certain people groups or a certain gender or what however that manifests itself, I can't help but wonder that it doesn't manifest itself somewhere else like road rage or issues in your home, those anger issues don't just don't dissipate, they don't go away on themselves around them on their own without being addressed. So this is this one, by far, and maybe pride when we get there, there is something about the two of these for me that are tightly coupled, and very much deeply rooted in success or failure of certain parts of society. I know that's a much bigger topic than just a leadership, deadly sin. But they do have deep roots.

Oh, we see this in organizations all the time, you have a wrath. So we'll use that term very broadly, leader that exhibits wrath that just gives carte blanche permission to the directs and their directs all the way down to do the same thing. And that could get even more dangerous one because you're multiplying this dysfunction. But two you may be as a, as an executive, able to have enough nuance around your wrath to where it's not super impactful to those around you. It's just annoying or and causes people to avoid you. But the first year manager who sees and tries to monkey see monkey do, right? And they might not, you know, be so nuanced about it, and that some really bad things could happen. And you let that happen. That's not something you condone through behavior.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you're hitting right on the the first layer of the onion, I think for the remedy, which is the leader has to own that they have to own not just the solving the problem or making it work, whatever it is, even if that is escalating to escalating in an effective way to your peer in another department who is the source of the issue, right? We do we have to do that all the time. But you have to own addressing that wrathful behavior that disrespectful, passive, aggressive, vile, emotionally volatile or volatile behavior. You have to own that. If you don't, no one will. And it gets worse when you think about all of the all the different psychology experiments that show how incredibly influenced easily influenced people are. We're talking about experience experiments that go the whole way back to the 1950s where people are easily influenced by someone even if it's just an actor that comes in and tells them incorrect information there 75% of the time people will allow that voice to influence them. It's so easy there. There's a from the atomic habits book, The James Clear the author, he refers to this as the close the many and the powerful, three groups of people that we are so easily influenced by, and the quote there I love is this one is he says most days we'd rather be wrong with the crowd than right by ourselves. Like we if a leader doesn't stop, that they're they could they're considered the powerful right, not the close, being safe family, friends, etc. The many just being sheer numbers but the powerful being a leader exhibiting wrong behavior. Or not addressing wrong behavior, either one or both, and you get the same outcome. People will just continue to replicate that bad behavior.

Yeah, definitely, we see that in, in all areas of life, we're really, we're hitting a nerve of almost first principles, right. These are, this is a timeless issue that happens with any individual organization, regardless of size.

Yeah, I ended up I won't go into this in too much detail. But in my previous team, I ended up building, rather than building just a set of business metrics, business metrics, were a given we were going to have to grow, we had to sell and grow and build, find the right kinds of clients and the right kinds of work. I don't even need to tell you about that. But because of so many other nuances and difficulties, both gender ratio, and the time differences between us and, and most of my team didn't share the same first language, even because we were spread out globally, I decided to try this kind of this first rules approach and make them very much three first rules that were that I called, rules of engagement. And they were all about relationships, judging positive intent, talking to each other, not about each other and making each other look good. And the behavior we're talking about here with wrath, it can connect to all three of those, giving one another the benefit of the doubt, or refusing to expose someone talking to them, not about them, or just simply making them look good, like any and every negative attribute we've talked about, would break all three of these rules, which makes them very important as a set of first rules to have a leader mirror and then insist that their people follow suit.

Yeah. And it strikes me as you're saying that too. Because you said use forwent the that's the right word forwent, forgone. Yes, sure it is you issued the traditional metrics. The funny thing, too, is and this isn't in any of the seven deadly leadership sins, I'm not seeing anything and what got you here won't get you there. 20 bad habits. We never have a competence or skill problem. Very rarely do we have an effort problem, like people just start playing fortnight all day and not working? Those two things are that those are rarely what sinks us it's the interconnectivity dysfunction that festers in a human organization that ultimately causes failure. It's not the skills very rarely, in fact, I've never been part of or seen or witnessed a failure due to lack of skill. Now, you could be SpaceX and have a hard time getting people to Mars, because you've you're trying to solve a problem that's never been solved before. But that's not what I'm talking about here. It's like, legitimately, your team's IQ is not high enough. Like I just I don't see that happen.

And yet, just to drive home your point even further, those are the things we always measure. We actually measure people's hands on keyboards, we don't in our firm, thank goodness. But we have a lot we the industry have so many different ways of measuring people's quote, productivity, versus addressing and measuring success around these more nuanced attributes, that when, when managed successfully, when built successfully, productivity comes productivity, strong business results, growth, sales, those things come when you build a strong team, yet, they're hard to measure. They have they're all lagging indicators, and they're, they're just very complex.

Okay, so we have really what wrath is what it looks like the different forms that can take this is a really dangerous one. What are the things that we can do? What are the remedies, the cures the inoculations that we can do within ourselves in our organization?

I think the largest kind of billboard size remedy is simply awareness. It's a lot of what we've been talking about in many different facets, manage yourself, and then manage your team. And so the first thing I discuss when I talk about this is again, the most contentious point, we've talked about the frozen middle, but no one talks about the frozen top, if the middle is frozen, if there's a problem there, whether it be productivity, transformation, lack of adaptability, performance, or any of these team attributes. Listen, executives thaw thy self out, look in a mirror, get a coach, get a coach for your team, get some honest reflection and introspection going to find out what your problems are. Because the frozen middle is only frozen because the top is allowing it to be so yes and and when I share that in multiple times at executive conferences, teams of 10, 12,15 to 100, C level, I've shared the actual response, Robert is crickets, people just like silence layers on to the room, because it's the truth. And we don't want to hear it. I don't like to hear it. But it is my job right, it is my job to introspect and reflect, I think our CEO is excellent at this. And then setting a good example, this, like introspection, reflection, and sharing out, and then helping other people go through that exercise with you helping the people who report to you, the people that are your internal company partners and peers, helping your clients go through it. It is it's, it's so invaluable, yet, we just don't want to think about a frozen top and what that might mean.

Yeah, let me offer some silver lining to that dark rain cloud that you've thrown upon us.

You're welcome.

No, I completely agree. And so one, one thing is we have all exhibited wrath as leaders in our careers, and might all exhibit wrath in the future. And so I think this is a common human condition, as leaders. One thing I'll tell you I mentioned at earlier, and this is not this was completely on accident. I just so happened in that day to have a good day about how feedback was given to me, if I if that feedback was given to me on 10 different days, I might have reacted really poorly on eight of them, happened to have a good day, that day. Later, Ed tells me, Hey, I, I respect you more than ever, for what you did for owning the mistake that you made. So in a weird kind of way, I had the highest level of respect from this direct report, maybe more for screwing up that I would not have been able to achieve had I not screwed up and talk about this all the time. It's like people, you're human, like people know you're gonna make mistakes. The thing that we hate, though, as a collective is injustice about people getting away with stuff they shouldn't, or people very clearly are messing up and they're just not owning it. You're like, come on, come on, come on. And so I think you could really, whether you're selfishly motivated or not, could earn some political capital could build some of that trust just by simply taking ownership I love Jocko Willing. Do you know about Jocko Willing? He he wrote Extreme Ownership and dichotomy of leadership, really good books, ex navy seal. And his whole thing is everything is your fault, no matter what, just Hey, it's your fault. And if everybody behaved that way, hey, this was my fault. Here's what I'm going to do to make sure it never happens. Again, what a great place the world would be. I think we need more of that. It's just a hard thing to do when you're the only one taking the blame.

Yeah, 100%. But somebody has to start a new habit, I love that I'll need to go and check out his books for sure. Because somebody has to start and set a new example. And that is, that's one of the things I found both hardest and best about the example I gave before of my own teams rules of engagements. Judging positive intent is tough. Making one another look good is tough, what was the toughest of the three was talking to one another, not about one another. And I found that in that example, with my own teams, and I've done this twice with executive level teams, it was building myself, that they not for a client, these were my teams that were responsible for our own output, that it had the it had to start with me, it had to start with me, showing them what that looked like. And then allowing myself to be held accountable as well. And receiving, like actually messing up and owning it publicly and receiving feedback about it. And you're right, like on my best days, I received feedback pretty well, I covet it. And on my worst days, I'd much prefer to be like in the fetal position and be left alone. And it's you know, I am I'm human too. And I don't always take it well, I have, at least once I can think of for sure. I've had to go back and apologize to someone who gave me feedback, and I didn't receive it well. And that was hard to do too. But somebody has to start like they have to be the first person to say, I'm going to change the way we operate. And if others follow me, fantastic. If they don't, that's a shame, and other sorts of issues will manifest themselves from that state of affairs. And they often end with parting ways and changing companies and things like that, but being willing to be the one who's like, yep, it's my fault. I'm gonna own it. And be the example is it's true. It's truth right there.

And Marshall Goldsmith would definitely agree with you on his being a jerk one, it's a if you're a jerk. And that the solution to that the remedy to that is not to be a really nice person. It's just to stop being a jerk. Just stop like, just don't talk, just keep your mouth shut. And that's a fairly low bar to pass. And so I definitely think especially when you're in a group setting If you're not sure what to do, as a leader, you have the luxury of being able to not say anything, and go and collect your thoughts and address people individually later, or have a plan for the next meeting that you're in something like that, which we will not confuse with the very first thing you mentioned, which is complete and utter avoidance, right? It's still, you still have to address it, you don't necessarily have to address the issue, at that exact point in time that it's made it that you're made aware of it,

and you're addressing the radio silence takes on its own form and experimentation and facilitation. It's, it's a symptom of the problem.

And one of the favorite hacks that I learned as a consultant, which is basically Oh, I don't know, let me let me think about that. I'll get back to you tomorrow, you can just say, I, that's a good question. I really care about that. Let me think about it, let me noodle on it. But set something up for next week, right, where very few of us are in these life and death situations where you have to have an answer now. And then if you can easily buy yourself some time. And if as long as you give someone a sort of a, I'll have something to you by tomorrow, or by a fixed date, you're gonna get a lot of grace, I think,

I think so too. That's an excellent point as from a remedy standpoint, because I think wrath is the most highly emotive of all of the deadly sins, and buying yourself a little bit of time to, to reverse fight or flight mechanisms to think if you've ever read or studied anything around crucial conversations, to just accept even the biology, of being in a contentious situation and hearing something you don't want to hear we are human, we don't like criticism, and buying yourself some time in a respectful manner to to calm down and deal with your biology and even just hear someone that works in all sorts of interpersonal relationships that works in my relationships with my closest friends and dating, relationships, marriage, everything. So it is it's a great technique to just get back to someone who gives you time to chew on it and think about it, then respond thoughtfully.

Core core leadership skill, the ability to filibuster enough to get out of them to let time expire, every interaction you're in has, it has a time that it ends, right? waste enough time to buy yourself a well continues discussion tomorrow, right? And the key is really, one identifying that, that rage, wrath feeling wrath feeling, and then short circuiting it, and then buying yourself time so you can sleep on it. Chris Lawson talks about him. Also, he talks about the label. So if you someone comes at you and is really angry, you seem upset if there's neuroscience that backs up that just labeling that and causing the person to say Am I upset, reduces by 50 or 75%? The the frequency the amplitude of their anger. And so there's even asking yourself like, hey, am I upset right now? That could help short circuit some of these things?

That's good. That's really good.

Man. This

is a tricky one. I think we lost our one viewer or one listener. That's okay.

Ah,

there's hope. There's hope for everybody.

That's right. This one had close to home for me, too. That's I think everyone struggles with this is a common one. Right? Might not be gluttony might not be sloth. But everybody that the Venn diagram that has wrath in it encompasses all people.

Yeah, this is a tough one. I think the way I, I've learned to notice it manifests itself the most in me, as a leader is, is the radio silence. Like I'm, I have to be hyper aware of myself when I'm quiet. Is it because I'm listening and trying to understand or is it because I am, on some level offended by what's been said? Or is there something just I'm being as transparent with you as I can be? Is there something that is that that makes me angry that smoldering anger or maybe I don't want to help this person on my team? Like, none of us are Mother Teresa, I'm not an outwardly aggressive person. So I will tend to withdraw. And then I have to hold myself accountable and be honest about Okay, wait a second. Tiffany, are you withdrawing? Because you are actually seeking to understand and you're listening and absorbing? Are you withdrawing? Because you're pissed?

That's a hard conversation to have with oneself with oneself and the isolation of quarantine?

Yeah. Which is another reason to filibuster. So you can think about it.

I work with someone who is masterful at that. And actually, at the beginning, I think was I was a little frustrated, because I'm very like, hey, let's get things solved in this meeting. So we don't have to, like talk about this again. And then he did the other day, and I was like, Hey, I'm on to you, man. Is this what you were getting on? He's Yeah, I see you. Yeah. That's great. I was thinking that is, what a great skill to have buying yourself some time to cool off and be more collected and what the people around you think about a little bit. Yeah, that's great. Anything else on this one?

I don't think so. So this is a tough one. Yeah. I hope we didn't lose our one listener. I hope they reflect you're still they don't get upset. And they do come back next week.

Yes. Well, it was great to see you. Good to see you too. Happy 2021. And we might do 51 more of these this year. I think that sounds fantastic. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Well, I'm looking forward to what's the next one just to give a little sneak peek.

I think the next one is envy.

Ooo envy

We are we're closing the loop here. We've got envy next, followed by pride, which is another one that hits close to home.

Yes, that will be fine. And then we will have completed our Seven Deadly leadership sins series. So yeah, go check out the other ones. If you're listening and still hear lust, gluttony, greed, sloth. wrath was today. If you have any questions, reach out Hello@industryof trust.com. We'll be happy to chat with you. And hope you have a great first remainder of your first 2021 week and we'll talk soon bye.

Bye.