Have you ever wondered how ancient prophecies and biblical symbols might relate to today's world events? In this episode of Seek Go Create, we delve deep into the mysteries of Revelation with guest Steve Wohlberg, exploring contentious topics like the Antichrist, America's role in prophecy, and the true interpretation of end-time events. Whether you're puzzled by biblical symbolism or curious about the intersection of faith and current affairs, this conversation promises intriguing insights and thought-provoking revelations. Tune in to discover what history, scripture, and prophecy might unveil about our future.

"Interpreting scripture requires humility and setting aside preconceived notions." - Steve Wohlberg

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Steve Wohlberg is the director of White Horse Media, a seasoned author, and a recognized authority on biblical prophecy and eschatology. With over 45 years of intensive Bible study, he has participated in over 500 media appearances, including significant venues like the Pentagon and US Senate. Wohlberg holds a degree from Andrews University, a Seventh-day Adventist Seminary, and has published numerous books, such as "End Time Delusions." His work focuses on interpreting end-times theology through a historical lens, bolstered by his unique journey from a secular Jewish upbringing to a passionate Christian ministry.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Uncover Antichrist Symbolism: Dive into biblical prophecies with Steve Wohlberg's intriguing explanations of symbols like the "man of sin" and the beast in Revelation. Could familiar texts hold deeper meanings?
2. Understand Modern Church and State Dynamics: Learn how historical events like the Reformation and Counter-Reformation impact today's religious and political landscapes. Is America shifting its spiritual identity?
3. Biblical Prophecy Insights: Gain fresh perspectives on end-times prophecy, the role of the U.S. in Revelation, and misconceptions about key events like the rapture. Are popular beliefs about prophecy really supported by scripture?

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

1. White Horse Media Website: Website: White Horse Media - Offers a variety of resources, including books, video series, and a free online Bible school.
2. Books by Steve Wohlberg:"Approaching Armageddon", "End Time Delusions" - These books delve into prophetic interpretations and provide a deeper understanding of eschatology and end-time theology. Be one of the first 10 callers at 800-78-BIBLE (2-4253) and you will receive 3 free books - Approaching Armageddon, End Times Delusions and The United States in Bible Prophecy.
3. White Horse Media YouTube Channel: White Horse Media - Features videos on biblical prophecy and teachings related to eschatology.

Action Steps

1. Study Revelation with a Humble Approach: Begin reading the book of Revelation, focusing on deriving meaning from the text (exegesis) rather than imposing personal or cultural biases (eisegesis). Approach the study with humility and an open mind, setting aside preconceived notions.
2. Engage in Deep Bible Study: Utilize resources from White Horse Media's free online Bible school to gain a deeper understanding of biblical prophecies and end-time teachings. This structured study can help clarify misconceptions and offer a firm theological foundation.
3. Build a Strong Faith Foundation: Actively work on humbling oneself, confessing sins, and committing to follow the teachings of Jesus. Focus on the centrality of the cross and salvation through grace, and maintain this perspective amidst worldly pressures and challenges.

Resources for Leaders from Tim Winders & SGC:

🎙 Unlock Leadership Excellence with Tim

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Key Lessons:

1. Humility in Biblical Interpretation: Steve Wohlberg emphasizes the need for humility and setting aside preconceived notions when interpreting the Bible, advocating for exegesis (deriving meaning from the text) over eisegesis (imposing personal meaning onto the text).
2. Misinterpretations of Prophecy: Wohlberg argues that popular beliefs about a seven-year tribulation, the Antichrist, and the physical Jewish state’s central role in end-times prophecy are based on misinterpretations of scripture, particularly challenging views derived from dispensationalism.
3. The Importance of Jesus' Crucifixion: Both Tim Winders and Steve Wohlberg underscore the centrality of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, grace, and salvation in the Christian faith, highlighting that these foundational elements should guide our understanding of eschatology.
4. Influence of Personal Backgrounds: Wohlberg notes how individual cultural, political, and denominational backgrounds can heavily influence how scripture is understood, pointing out the need to be aware of these lenses to gain a clearer interpretation of biblical teachings.
5. Revelation's Message of Hope: Despite its complex and sometimes frightening imagery, the book of Revelation ultimately conveys a message of hope, faith, and victory through Jesus Christ. Wohlberg stresses that understanding this helps reduce fear and offers a clearer vision of God's plan for the future.

Episode Highlights:

00:00 Introduction to End Times Theology

00:53 Guest Introduction: Steve Wahlberg

01:46 Personal Journeys and Preparations

02:25 Icebreaker: What Do You Do?

02:45 Steve's Background and Ministry

04:39 Cultural and Political Lenses in Biblical Interpretation

15:01 Steve's Conversion and Early Christian Life

24:59 The Importance of Eschatology

29:36 Misunderstandings and Deceptions in End Times Beliefs

35:52 The Day of the Lord and New Creation

36:57 Fear and Tribulation Trails

37:21 Hot Button Topics: Rapture, Antichrist, and Israel

38:21 Understanding Prophecy: Books and Views

40:53 The Rapture Theory Examined

49:23 The Role of Israel in Prophecy

55:09 The Antichrist: Myths and Realities

59:13 Revelation and America's Role

01:03:52 Final Thoughts and Resources

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So bottom line is, Gentiles and Jews who believe in Jesus

become part of the Israel of God.

They're the ones that are going to be under assault by

the devil in the final days.

And if we, trust the Lord and he's with us and we believe in him, we follow his word.

Our home is the new Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem has no role in

the book of revelation, not one text.

It's just like seven years of tribulation, not one text disappearing Christians,

not one text, the Jewish state in the book of revelation, not one text.

it's a mammoth, system.

of illusion and delusion.

Um, uh,

How does our understanding of biblical end times shape our daily lives

and decision making today on seek, go create the leadership journey.

We explore this question with Steve Wahlberg, director of white horse

media and author of in time delusions.

The Rapture, the Antichrist, Israel, and the End of the World.

As a prolific writer and speaker who has graced over 500 radio and TV shows,

and even spoken at the Pentagon and U.

S.

Senate, Steve brings a wealth of knowledge and a unique

perspective to our discussion.

Join us as we explore how End Times theology not only informs

our spiritual outlook, but actively influences our real world engagements.

choices, Steve, welcome to seek, go create,

Thank you, Tim.

I've been looking forward to this interview and now it has arrived.

thank you for having me.

it is arrived.

I will typically do a decent amount of prep, you know, I'll listen to

a few things and I'll read a few things, Steve, I may have done

more prep for this than I've done for just about any interview I've

Well,

And, I'll just say this and then I'll dive into my few basic questions.

I like to start with, I think it's been my personal journey for

about the last year and a half.

I have been going down a lot of rabbit holes, a lot of

trails and things like that.

I love that you came across my desk and I've got your book here.

We're going to discuss.

I just finished reading it.

I will say the last portion, I had to read a little faster than I would

typically want to, but we're going to have some good discussions here.

But.

Steve, before we get started, I'd like to kind of like do an

icebreaker question to start off with.

and it's really the question that I would ask if you and I were

out about out and about on an airplane or something like that.

And we bumped into each other, I would say, Hey, Steve, great to meet you.

What you do?

So if somebody asks you what you do, what's your answer?

Yeah, that's a challenging, simple question because I do so many

different things, so simple answer.

I would tell somebody that I'm a minister.

I'm the director of Whitehorse Media.

I write books.

I give seminars.

We have a big YouTube channel.

We produce programs and we're all about the Bible and trying to

help people find hope and to find Jesus and to have a better life.

So that's kind of the, you know, in a nutshell, there's

a lot of other moving parts.

I'm also a husband and I'm a dad.

I'm a gardener.

I like my orchard.

My apples are just ready to pick off the tree right now.

I think I'll wait a little bit more till farther into October, but, um,

I do a lot of things, but bottom line is I'm here to help people to

know the Bible and to find what I found, which is really, really good.

Very nice.

You mentioned gardener.

My wife is down cleaning out our garden where we spend our summers

here in hills is it's today's the day to have the garden cleaned out

So picking the last tomatoes on the vines and herbs and things like that.

So

I did that yesterday.

I'm a laborer and I water

Yeah, I picked my tomatoes yesterday because my app on

my phone said, freeze warning.

Time to pull them in so I do want to jump back to that.

You know that what you do question What kind of responses do you

get from people that might be?

Let's say you're not in a church setting or a spiritual setting or anything like

that and you respond that way What what are people responding when you say that?

it's all across the board.

And I don't always say all those things, you know, I'm saying those things to you.

I'm a minister and I, try to help people understand the Bible.

so it depends.

And I'm just curious if you don't mind my asking a question to you.

You said that, it's been about a year and a half that you've become

interested in end time prophecy.

Could you just fill that in a little bit for me?

What prompted you?

I mean, obviously you're, you know, you look at your mouth the same age as I am.

So a year and a half, I've been studying property for 45 years.

So what happened to you?

We got you interested.

Yeah, that, that's actually a great lead in, I think, to the discussion here.

my background, I've been a follower of Christ now for 30 plus years in my late

twenties, I'm 60, I'm about to be 61.

So, and I think you're a couple of years older maybe,

65.

I do want to.

Yeah, I do want to say for anyone just listening to the audio, these

are two really handsome, good looking, very youngish looking men

that are on this video right here.

you.

We take good care of ourselves,

try.

All

I grew up in a home that we popped in and out of church just

outside of the Atlanta area.

We popped in and out some, but I wouldn't say it was a deeply spiritual

home, but we're in the Bible belt.

I vividly remember a book on my parents shelves called The Late Great Planet

Earth by a guy named Hal Lindsey that we may discuss a little bit of

that theory and all in just a moment.

late 80s, got married and, saved, met Jesus Christ, became

a follower of Christ, and started going through a good bit of study.

And I've been studying the Word since that time, almost on a daily basis.

So, it's not as if I know nothing, I always sort of stayed away from

that, let's call it the revelation and the end times discussion.

Until sometime in the mid 90s, there was these books that came out.

that were the left behind books.

And, I got those and I read them from cover to cover almost the

day they came out until about the seventh or eighth book in.

And I realized that in all likelihood, I was just reading a soap opera that

had a few scriptures that it was.

basing those, those stories on.

so I kind of set aside what we will call eschatology or end

times still doing a lot of study.

I mean, I've done tremendous studies on the kingdom of God.

I've gone to Bible school for a few years.

I've done a lot of studies, but towards the tail end of last year, I felt as if

the Lord was nudging me to understand.

He was, there's a word he kept dropping in both my wife and I, that

was just more of an eternal mindset.

He wanted us to understand an eternal mindset.

So, that's kind of what started me on just some studies that

were a little bit deeper.

There was a lot of things going on in the world that really bothered me

what we will term the dispensational theory, that theory that goes back to.

we will say, the late great planet earth.

And so there were a lot of political things and all of that.

So I say all that to kind of lead into kind of my first big question for you.

And that is this, there are a lot, I know in just a moment, we're probably

going to talk about the three lenses.

That's what your book talks about.

The three lenses that we can

right.

I actually, I'm not going to disagree with that, but I believe there's a

lot of lenses that we could look at.

When we start reading scripture I'll give a few of them and then I'll let you

respond and talk a little bit about that.

I think we can look at it from the lenses of what I just talked to you about,

how I was raised, where I was raised, the country I'm in, things like that.

I also am noticing, and this is something that bothers me.

A lot of people are reading this with their political lens.

putting on their political hat or their politics and they're reading the Bible,

attempting to pull scriptures or ideas or theories or whatever related to that.

Also our churches denominations and things like that feed into it.

I think, and I don't know if this is where you want to go into the three lenses

that you talk about, but talk about how.

Culture,

the world we're in, the country we grew up in, talk a little bit about how those

things the discussion of end times.

And then maybe we'll go into those lenses that you talk about.

Of course.

Yes.

And, it's, it's interesting that the late great planet earth by how Lindsay was

the first Christian book I ever read.

So, you know, I can relate to that when I was not even, I

was not a Christian in 1979.

I was living in the North Hollywood, Hollywood area started to search and

that was the first book that I read.

you mentioned lenses in my, in my book, end time delusions.

I do talk about the three major lenses through which we can understand the book.

But your, your point is, is very valid that we all come to

the Bible with our own lenses.

So there's a lot of other lenses based on how people just view life.

you know, people.

Depending upon where you live, how you grew up, what you've been taught,

there's all kinds of factors, that influence a person's thinking.

So from that perspective, there's a lot of different lenses through which

people see as they read the Bible.

So, yeah, I totally agree with that.

that kind of brings up, the one I'd love for you to maybe just talk a little bit

more about, and this is not, I want to say, I'm not trying to be controversial.

We're in an interesting topic, but I think the politics.

Of the day are interesting to me with relation to this, and this is going to

get into, one of those lenses, which I think you titled the futurist lens, but it

appears as if there's quite a few people that are looking at current headlines.

They're looking at current people running for office and different things.

Things like that, and they're attempting to take scripture to either

explain it or justify their beliefs.

I'll say it in that strong way.

do you want to say anything about that?

I don't know when this releases.

It could be releasing close to the time of election in the United States.

You know, I'm not really wanting to come out and speak much on that, but just

what, what are your thoughts on that?

Especially someone who's been around this for 40 plus years.

the political lens is very real.

People look at.

At politics, or at the Bible through the eyes of their political preferences.

so there's, you know, there's lots of different views.

the idea of Christian nationalism, you know, that's a whole other topic.

People look at revelation through those eyes, look at

the Bible through those eyes.

People, there's just all kinds of eyes.

I think you've heard, you've heard the, the expression,

they're kind of technical terms.

When I was in the seminary, I learned these things.

I don't use these words a lot, but there's what's called exegesis and iso Jesus.

And exegesis is actually bringing out what's in the text.

What does the Bible say?

And I see Jesus is where you read, you read into the text

what you want it to say.

And so I think we all.

Whatever our backgrounds, we all need to make a conscious effort to put our own

preconceived ideas, our own biases, our own, you know, background perceptions and

lay those aside and then say, Lord, you teach me and the principle of humility.

To me is, is very, very important that we need, we all need to, as the Bible

says, humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Jesus said, those who exalt themselves will be humbled.

Those who humble themselves will be exalted.

And we all need to humble ourselves and say, Lord, give me the Holy

Spirit and help me to understand.

What you are trying to say in the Bible rather than what I want the Bible to say

or what I've been taught, you know, we have to lay aside preconceived opinions

and that was the challenge with, with the disciples, even in the time of Jesus,

they became followers of Christ, but they had a lot of preconceived ideas

that they had been taught by the rabbis.

the rabbis see this a whole other topic.

they were very religious people.

They were committed to the scriptures.

And yet they had a certain track of what they thought the Messiah

was going to do when he came.

They had very definite ideas and they believe Messiah is going to come.

He's going to conquer the Romans.

The hated Romans, he's going to sit on the throne, in Jerusalem.

He's going to rule.

He's going to exalt us as the leaders of Israel.

And when Jesus came, he didn't fit that sequence.

He didn't fit that model.

He didn't come to do those things.

And so they misinterpreted the scriptures, and Jesus tried to work with them, and

even his own disciples had received so many of those ideas that they were in

their heads, and it took a long time for Jesus to get those ideas out of their

heads, and the rabbis, a lot of them, most of them, just, became set in their ways.

And so we also there's the.

The principle of pride and opinion and then humbling ourselves and seeing

what God actually has to say and it's a journey, you know, we all have a lot to

learn and we all have a lot to unlearn.

Yeah.

And I.

just think to myself at times because my mind, I don't want to say dogmatic,

but I can be, I can get to places where I really truly believe I'm right.

My wife tells me this often.

And, I want to say with, especially even with this topic that we're talking about,

that I approach this topic, even with great deal of humility, because there's

just a lot here that, I think our lenses can be impacted by, I think the thing I'd

love to ask now, Steve, maybe related to that, I know, you were born into a Jewish

family going to ask you to talk just a little bit more about that, but I'd love

for you to kind of give a little bit of your background and maybe as you're doing

it, talk a little bit about, Possibly some of those paradigms or lenses maybe that

you've had to work through over the years that you've now done your study and all

of that because I'm sure kind of like me.

I grew up in the bible belt I've had to kind of push some of those aside So I

guess this is my way of saying tell me a little bit more about your background

But as you're doing it some of the things hurdles you've had to overcome

related to You know some of the lenses or paradigms you needed to push through

Yeah, it's interesting that when my background.

Well, let me back up.

As you mentioned, I'm Jewish.

I come from a Jewish home in Southern California in the Hollywood Hills.

But our Jewish home was very, very secular.

We were really cultural Jews.

So there was no religion.

There was no prayer.

There was no Bible study.

I did not grow up learning the story of Noah or Moses or David.

I knew nothing about those things.

So we didn't go to synagogue.

We didn't go to church.

We kept Hanukkah and Christmas, which was great because I'd

get presents on both days.

And that was about the extent of my Judaism.

You know, it was Passover with some friends, neighbors, we'd celebrate

Passover, but it was all just a Jewish cultural thing, lox, cream

cheese, bagels, but there was no spiritual relationship with God.

So when I.

Entered my teen years.

I got lost in the world of drugs and wild living and the rock

and roll concerts in the 70s.

And that was just what my friends did.

So that's what I did.

And then when I was 19 or 20, I started feeling a need for something in my life.

And I began to run into Christians who began to plant seeds saying,

Hey, you need to read the Bible.

So I started, I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

And at that point, I really didn't have a lot to I didn't have a

major lens to give up because I was pretty much a blank slate.

And so, when I started reading the Bible for the 1st time and read, eventually

got to the New Testament, read about Jesus as as the Messiah and as the

Savior, I didn't have a whole lot of.

Judaism inside of me saying Christians or you know, Christians are weird

and Jews can't believe in Jesus because that's a different religion.

There was none of that.

It was just a blank slate.

And I just was drawn to Jesus, especially seeing him suffering in the garden

of Gethsemane and then dying on the cross and then rising from the dead.

it just, I just realized this is the man that I need in my life.

He's got something that I've, I've never seen.

So I got on my knees, Asked him to come into my heart and forgive my sins.

He did.

He changed my life.

I began to feel this peace that I'd never known.

And that's what launched me into my Christian life, which was like

night and day, no more drugs, no more rock and roll, no more parties,

no more discos, no more going out at three in the morning and no more

hangovers, you know, all that changed.

And so, as I began to read the Bible and became a Christian, then I began

to, you know, study the Bible more.

And then I realized that Jesus.

Not only came once in fulfillment of prophecy, but that he was coming

back again, and that's what launched me into a study of revelation and

prophecy, Daniel revelation, because I wanted to learn more about what's

going to happen before he comes again.

And when he comes again, and after he comes again.

So all of that, those were all factors.

And so I think I came into it pretty much with a blank slate.

And the more I learned, and I think there's, you know, sometimes you can

have a lot of things, ideas in your head.

And if they're good ideas, that's good.

But if they're not ideas, then you have a lot to unlearn.

And it's hard sometimes to give up what we've previously

learned, which may not be true.

But it's easier if you don't have all those ideas in your

head, you have a blank slate.

And that was me.

So now it's been 45 years, I've been studying the Bible.

the Lord has just, he's led me step by step into ministry and seminars, teaching.

And now with White Horse Media up in North Idaho, we have a staff here.

There's about eight of us.

We have a big studio.

We have a YouTube channel that's growing rapidly and just a

lot of good things happening.

it's been a long journey, a lot of ups and downs, but that's

kind of the long and short of it.

Nice.

And well, you did have to give, get all that disco music out of

your head that actually could have

Yeah, You're right.

I had to give up.

say, you did say you read that late, great planet earth early

Yes.

probably was

All I remember was just the horns and the beasts and the dragon and I

really didn't comprehend any of that.

So it wasn't like I believed it and then had to give it up.

I just didn't really understand it.

so would you say that your study of this topic?

Was pretty close to started at that time, I mean, a lot of

people go through some different,

topics when they first come to know the Lord, but you kind

of were gravitating towards

Right away.

It wasn't long.

Yeah.

And like you said, you kind of were nudged.

The Lord nudged you.

I think that was the word you used to start studying in that times.

It was not a nudge for me.

It was like, do this.

You've got to do this.

I'm calling you to do this.

And so, I've always felt a calling to study prophecy.

and the more I did that, then I realized that there were different views out there.

Mm

the more I studied things became clearer and clearer and clearer.

I think if you get the right, for me, it was a matter of reading the right books.

if you read all the wrong books, you may believe them and get off track, but if

you get the right books, you can then begin to see and things make sense.

Yes,

involved with a church or denomination or anything like that?

Because I know you also went to seminary, so what seminary did

you go to, and are you part of a denominational church or anything, yeah?

I went to Andrews University, which is, a Seventh day Adventist, seminary.

And in my early days, I bounced around.

I went to a lot of different churches.

I went to a Baptist church.

I went to Methodist church, Calvary Chapel.

Knocked on the door of the synagogue trying to talk to the rabbi.

He wasn't there that day.

So I bounced around and then I turned on a tv set one day and saw an adventist

minister He had a program called it is written and he was giving a bible

study and it interested me and I thought well I'll check out the adventists.

So I went to the adventist church and what they taught To me, it made sense.

It was based on the Bible.

It fit, especially the idea of the Ten Commandments, because I remember I was

very confused at one point, and then when I realized that God wrote Ten

Commandments with his own finger on stone, I remember distinctly thinking to

myself, I'm very confused about religion at that point, but something tells me

if I stick to the Ten Commandments, I'm gonna be on the right track.

And then ultimately also if I follow Jesus and make sure that I know he's my savior.

I'm saved by his grace.

And so anyway, that's basically what happened.

and I want to put an exclamation point on that statement you just made, that

when we discuss a number of these items here, I do believe they're

critical and they're important, but that aspect of Jesus Christ that

Yeah,

that what he did on

that's right,

me,

right.

everything in the biblical story revolves around that.

Me too.

And the reason I bring that up, Steve, is I think sometimes with this topic, we

can kind of start arguing a few little points one way or the other and forget

and lose fact of like, hey, these folks still believe that Christ died for

their sins and he's went to the cross.

I am okay having discussion, but to remember that.

I also want to remember the biblical story.

You know, we're moving towards a new heaven and a new earth and a new creation.

what we're discussing here are the things between here and there.

And

right.

Is that roughly what we're talking about?

Completely.

And I want to put my own exclamation point on the cross, because I know in

my soul, I mean, the 10 commandments appeal to me because it was something

solid that would give me some guidance on What's right and what's wrong.

But I also realized completely that I was a sinner and that there's no

way that I'm going to save myself.

And that and the cross, Gethsemane is what really reached me.

And then the cross and Jesus, you know, his suffering for my sins.

If it wasn't for Jesus dying on the cross to pay the price for every single sin I've

ever committed, I would have no hope, and he is everything to me, you know, looking

to Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith, he who believes in him should

not perish, but have everlasting life.

So the cross is the center of my life.

it's the center of everybody that's going to be saved is where, you

know, we're not saved by our works, but by grace and we're washed from

our sins in the blood of the lamb.

and I see that in the book of revelation to a lot of people

are scared of revelation.

They think, well, it's scary.

It's got all these dragons and beasts and plagues and, you know,

things that are frightening, but there's so much of the cross.

and the lamb and the blood in the book of Revelation, and it gives

me, you know, Revelation 1 verse 5 says to him who loved us and washed

us from our sins in his own blood.

And so, the idea of we're between here and the end, and then the new earth.

I totally agree with that.

And there's going to be trials ahead of us.

but if we have Jesus, and if we, Stick with him.

He said, I'm with you always, even to the end of the world.

the ultimate hope is on the other side of this, there'll be no more

deaths, sorrow, crying, pain.

There'll be a new heaven and a new earth.

we'll get to be with Jesus forever and with his people.

that's what I'm looking forward to.

That's what gives me hope.

yeah, that's exciting.

That's even what I have out on my Bible here is, Revelation 21,

22 is that all things made new.

That's right.

All right, so we're all on the same page there.

I want to go to, and I hadn't planned on doing this, but, it's kind of, The

next good step for us is to just talk about why this topic of eschatology

or end times is important One of the things I did and I didn't think much

about it I was reading your book over the weekend and I just put a picture up.

I said, hey i'm interviewing this guy on monday see am I having questions?

Well, a few questions came in and a buddy of mine brian from facebook

says why Is eschatology important?

And so I think I want us to kind of start this next 30, 45 minutes

conversation on why is this important?

Why does anyone need to know more about this topic?

Yeah, good question.

And it's interesting.

On another interview that I was in, Java with Jen, she put a note on Facebook

before I, we got into the interview and she said, you have any questions?

And she got a slew of questions.

few more too.

We might get to some of these, like what's the Antichrist, Rapture, all

yeah,

if we

that's what she asked too.

So we might need to do a part two, Tim, maybe a part two.

So as far as why this topic is important, it's, it gets down

to the basics of who we are.

Why we're here, where are we going?

And, and as you, I've read a little bit about you, you are a coach,

you know, you coach, leaders, entrepreneurs, business people.

And of course, anybody that's successful in business, you've

got to know where you're going.

you've got to have goals.

You've got to have that big picture.

And so for me, for my life, it's very important on a very practical level to

know Who I am, why I'm here and how we got here because Lucifer rebelled originally

in heaven, and he was kicked out and what those issues are are important.

And then he came down to the earth.

He tempted Eve at the tree and what the issues were that

he brought up at the tree.

And she believed the snake.

She was duped.

She yielded.

She took the fruit, gave it to Adam, Adam ate, and that brought sin into humanity.

And so now we're living in a world of sin.

And that's what led to the gospel to, to Jesus coming down here,

being born in Bethlehem, living a

Holy life paying the price for us on the cross, dying,

rising again, going to heaven.

and he said, I'm going to come back again.

I'm going to come again.

And so we know that we're living in a sinful world behind us.

There was a perfect Garden of Eden ahead of us is the new heaven and the new Earth.

We're in the middle of a battle between good and evil.

God and Satan, good angels and bad angels, and we're going to eventually

get into the final scenes of the final conflict between good and evil.

We need to know what those issues are.

We need to stand for for Jesus and then we need to have hope that in spite of

all the problems in this world, you know, whoever gets into the White House in

November and whatever happens to America as far as the, you know, the moral issues,

the disintegration of family values.

Yeah.

We can see all these things all around us, and yet we don't need to be discouraged.

By the darkness, because we know that God's control in control, and

we know he's still on the throne.

We know that at the end, Jesus is going to come.

He said, I'm with you always, even to the end of the world, and then there'll

be a new heaven and a new earth.

bottom line is to have a comprehensive Understanding of the great controversy

between Christ and Satan that we are in and how we got into this mess and

how God's going to solve this problem.

And that we do have hope that love will win.

Good will win.

Jesus will win.

And there'll be the restitution of all things.

as it says in Acts 3 verse 21, to me, all of this is very important

for me to be able to live my life.

Down here and to be able to talk to people who are struggling and who are hurting

who may be depressed or potentially suicidal because they see no hope.

Everything's dark.

They don't see that God loves them.

They has a plan for them that Jesus died for them.

That love is going to win that.

He has a future in store for them that there's a new heaven and a new earth.

They have, like you said, I think something like an eternal perspective.

You know, we need that eternal perspective, that eternal mindset.

Is part of what you could, you know, the word, the technical term eschatology.

But to me, I don't use that word a lot.

It's just really where we are, what's coming and what's going to

happen and how God's going to win.

Yeah, kind of a follow up question to that, and it's going to relate to, I've

got a lot of questions popping in my head.

What is the most fundamental misunderstanding leads people astray?

And let me hang that question out there, and I want to add

a little bit of a layer to it.

One of the things that bothers me a great deal, Steve, I don't like

deception, but one of the things that bothers me with what I see on

the horizon Is using fear, using,

bad stuff's about to happen, things like that, that that's gotten to where

that bothers me more than it used to.

It's kind of one of the reasons maybe I started the deeper study that I did a year

or so back was because I started seeing a lot of things kept popping up in the

news and the media about a particular, the dispensational type, approach to this.

so I say all that to come back to the question, what's the most fundamental

misunderstanding you see that leads people astray related to this topic?

There's a lot of misunderstandings.

I think probably one of the most fundamental misunderstandings,

which is really a simple Bible truth for Christians.

We believe Jesus Came.

He died on a cross.

He was buried and he rose from the dead and he went to heaven.

And when he went up in Acts chapter one, the Bible says that he was

taken up and the cloud received him out of their sight and the disciples

were there watching him go up.

And then there were two angels standing by them in white clothes.

This is Acts chapter one, and the angel said to the disciples, why

are you gazing up into heaven?

This same Jesus who?

Ascended up that you saw him.

He's going to come back again, just as you saw him go up into heaven.

And so, to me, it's pretty simple.

Jesus, the real Jesus died.

He rose, he went up and he's coming back.

Now, you would think that would be pretty basic, you know, pretty simple, but.

There's a lot of misunderstanding about that.

Some people think he's already come in.

you know, he's already in the world now.

He's already ruling.

He's already here.

He doesn't need to come back again, literally come down.

And then, the Jehovah's Witnesses, you know, they believe he's

already come up in up in heaven.

Some people think, well, he's, he's already here spiritually.

and then there's others that believe that when he does come, nobody's gonna know it.

He's gonna come down invisibly and snatch us up and take us to heaven.

So there's all kinds of misunderstandings connected to a simple Bible truth that

Jesus died, was buried, rose, went to heaven, and he is physically, literally,

bodily, Going to come back down with all the angels and power and great glory

every I will see him This is a very simple powerful biblical truth and yet a lot of

misunderstandings about that simple truth

And I think the thing that I've noticed, and I think I had this in my mindset,

was this thought of being rescued.

Or, heaven minded.

Yeah, the end was Jesus is either kind of going to come down, take

everybody and we're going to heaven, or, when I die, I'll go to heaven

and there'll be an ending event.

But as I read Revelation, it seems as if what's happening, there's

a new creation that's occurring.

Is it here on this earth?

is it?

In another realm, I think it's a combination of the two.

That's my thoughts on it.

and I do think that there is a process that'll be gone through

that will get to that place.

one of the things I've noticed, and I went to Bible school for a few years

and I noticed a lot of people this way.

really did think that their mindset was they're just punching their

heaven ticket while they're here.

And they were just going to heaven.

That was their thing.

And that to me seemed like it created quite a bit of confusion because it

doesn't take that whole bigger story.

And would you agree with that?

Yeah, I do and before I read a text in second peter let me respond to the fear

issue You know, you mentioned, yeah, and I've talked to different people

about this, and my conviction is that people are afraid of what they don't

understand, like a little child that's afraid of the dark, they're scared of

the dark, they think there might be a boogeyman in the closet, because they,

they're just not, they're not old enough, and they don't understand, there's no

boogeyman in the closet, and it's, it's dark, because you just flick the switch,

The light switch, it's electricity.

and so, but as a child grows older, they, they lose their fear of the

dark because they understand more.

And it's the same way with Bible prophecy in the book of Revelation.

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

And the more we learn, the more we understand, the fear goes away and

God doesn't want us to live in fear.

I mean, Jesus, or what does it say, Paul, I think it's 2nd Timothy 1

verse 7 says, God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power

and of love and of a sound mind.

So I think knowledge and understanding takes away fear.

So now what was your, your second question?

Did I, Did I miss something?

Oh, yes.

Yeah, you had a scripture there you were going

Yeah, I did.

So here, about the new heaven and the new earth, second Peter three

verse nine says the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but

that all should come to repentance.

And that shows us God's heart.

He wants to save everybody.

He loves everybody.

And then verse 10 says, But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the

night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, the elements

shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein

shall be burned up, seeing then that all these things shall be returned.

Dissolved.

What manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens

being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Nevertheless, we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new

earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

So to me, I take this at face value.

just like in the days of Noah, there was a flood and the water came down.

And the whole world was underwater.

Sodom and Gomorrah, the fire came down and that was the end of those cities.

these verses say that when the day of the Lord comes, he's going to come and the

heavens and the earth are going to melt.

They're all going to, you know, burn up.

but we don't need to be worried about that because God's going to make

a new heaven and a new earth and righteousness is going to live there.

I believe this and I believe that just like there was a Garden of Eden, so

there's going to be a new Eden, a new garden, a new heaven and a new earth.

It's going to be real.

we're going to see it happen and it's going to be an awesome day.

I mean, absolutely awesome.

Like when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, that whole mountain was shaking

and in the days of Noah, the water came down and Noah and his family

and the animals were in the ark.

And when Jesus comes back again, nobody's going to miss it.

It's not going to be a secret event.

We're not going to wonder, where did all the Christians go?

It's going to be a big day that the world's going to see.

And those who are ready, are going to be with Jesus.

And then when he makes the new heavens and the new earth,

that's where we're going to live.

I accept this at face value,

yeah.

So, and, but let's go back to that.

How people live, where the fear comes from.

I don't know why, just something popped in my mind and, you know, we're right

around the, Halloween time of year.

I remember growing up again, down in the Bible belt.

And there was a church that had what they call tribulation trail

as a, like a Halloween thing.

And I remember our kids going and just being terrified.

Having the heck scared out of them and all of that.

But the subtitle to your book that I read in time delusions, there's a

few things you bring up these are a few things that came up in question.

So I'm going to mention these Steve, I know this is going to be hard, but

I would love for us to just maybe say quickly, but I want to hit these sub

items because you kind of in your subtitle gave a lot of the hot button items

right?

The rapture, the antichrist, Israel, and of course the end of the world.

But those three are ones that are really, let's just go ahead.

Whoever wrote the subtitle here, obviously you reached out and said,

okay, this is what people, this is going to get people's attention.

Right.

me just put those out.

Cause I do have a couple of questions.

I mean, someone asked about the rapture.

someone mentioned about the antichrist or a antichrist, the antichrist spirit.

There's Marcus Watson too.

He's a pastor by the way, down in California.

do you, what do you want to share about any of that?

Yeah.

And let me, let me just quickly, if you don't mind, I've got a

number of my books here that we've been promoting on these podcasts.

Approaching Armageddon is a simple book.

I call it Prophecy 101.

It doesn't deal with all that information.

It just talks about how we can trust the Bible, the signs of the times

Jesus is coming and, and good will win.

So when we get into end time delusions, this one deals more

with the different conflicting.

Interpretations of prophecy right now.

We have another little book called United States in Bible Prophecy that gives my

understanding of the role of America.

And by the way, we're offering these three books for free to your callers.

People that are watching this, they want to call White Horse Media and

say, can I have those books for free?

The first 10 callers get the free books because we have a book fund.

People have donated that and we want to give Give a lot of these away.

So when it comes to end time delusions, that's the book that

deals with the three lenses.

and those three lenses are basically the Preterist view that says when you

read the book of Revelation, almost all of that happened in the time of Nero.

Way back in the time of the 1st century.

It's all just a 1st century book.

That's preterism.

And then there's, that's one lens, another glass people, people wear

these glasses, which is futurism.

And futurism pretty much says that the majority of the book of Revelation is

all, in the head of us after we're gone.

That's futurism.

And then there's historicism, which is the third set of glasses.

People read the Bible through the historicist eyes, which says that

prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.

It's been going on down throughout history, and it's

going to climax at the end.

those are the glasses that I subscribed to.

That was basically the Protestant view.

So the futurist eschatology basically says We're all going to disappear

and there's going to be seven years of tribulation during that time.

The temple will be rebuilt.

The antichrist will come.

He'll be one charismatic man.

He will eventually gather the nations against the Jews, which

will be the battle of Armageddon.

And then Jesus will come and conquer him and rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years.

That's essentially.

The futurist doctrine, which is also interwoven with dispensationalism.

I don't believe that that's that sequence.

I compare it to the rabbis having their sequence that the Messiah is

going to come, conquer the Romans, sit on the throne, rule from Jerusalem.

It's very, you know, their, their sequences has many

parallels to the rabbi sequence.

And so my book deals with, well, what does the Bible say about the rapture?

What does it say about the tribulation?

What does it say about the antichrist?

What does it say about, about Israel?

And it goes into all those details.

And I don't know if, you know, how I can, do you want me to try to give you the,

the three minute version of each, each topic, rapture, antichrist into the world?

I think, let's do that because correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe it's my observation view.

Seems to be extremely popular.

Well, yeah.

to have permeated.

And I know the history of it back to the mid 1800s.

If you want to say a word or two and,

Sure.

Lindsay's book and the left behind have just really put it into our culture.

Yeah.

culture period.

And so I think that's the one that.

probably needs to have the most time spent because it's the

one that bothers me the most.

And so now having said that, correct me if I'm wrong or why, or is it as many

people as I think, do we have any numbers

Oh, yeah.

what do you

Well, I don't know.

We don't have numbers, but it's a lot.

And in my book, I have a chapter called the path of the virus.

And what it does, if you've read that it traces this sequence of rapture,

seven years, future Antichrist.

Rebuilt Temple, Armageddon Against the Jews, that sequence really gained

steam in the early 1800s with, Edward Irving and then John Nelson Darby.

And he and Darby put those ideas into the, which will actually Schofield put,

put Darby's ideas into the Schofield reference Bible, which became one of

the most popular footnoted Bibles in the early 1900s, which then in America,

then worked its way into the seminaries, especially doubt the Dallas Theological

Seminary, how Lindsay was a graduate of the Dallas Theological Seminary.

He incorporated those ideas, put them into the late great planet earth.

Which was a, nonfiction book.

And then Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins teamed up and made it into

a series of fictitious novels, which is the Left Behind series.

And it has become the dominant view that most people believe in.

They just think, you know, they accept it.

They don't really look carefully at the texts of what the Bible actually says.

But, you know, so that's the, that's the theory.

as far as the rapture, you know, that's kind of like the Kingpin that gets the

sequence started and people interpret second or first Thessalonians four

where it says will be caught up and first Corinthians 15 where Paul says

in the moment in the twinkling of an eye and Jesus says Matthew 24 he talks

about two are in the field one's taken one's left and they interpret these

verses to mean Disappearing Christians.

We're all just going to vanish the rapture.

We're going to be gone.

The world's going to wake up and wonder where did they all go?

And that'll be the beginning of the seven years.

But when you look at those verses carefully, 1st Thessalonians 4, when

we're caught up, it says Jesus is going to come down from heaven with a

shout, with a voice, with a trumpet.

there's a resurrection and we're caught up.

It says nothing about disappearing Christians.

This is the second coming of Christ.

It's a very noisy, loud verse where Jesus comes back.

Same with the first Corinthians 15, where Paul says, in a moment in the

twinkling of an eye, when you keep reading, it says at the last trumpet

for the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised, will be changed.

This is a big day.

It's not.

It's not.

It's not a blinking day where people just wonder where'd all the Christians go.

That's not what the context is showing.

And Matthew 24, when Jesus said, two are in the field, one's taken, one's left.

You look at the whole context.

He, Jesus just got done talking about Noah's day.

He said, as it was in Noah's day, it's going to be the same.

When I come, they were eating, drinking, marrying, giving and marriage

until the day Noah entered the ark.

And then the flood came and took them all away.

And then he said, so shall the coming of the son of man be.

then two are.

in the field.

One's taken, one's left.

So when is then then is at the second coming, that's going to be just as

big and catastrophic like it was in the days of Noah, which is what second

Peter said when the day of the Lord comes, the heavens are going to pass

away, the earth's going to all that.

So my point is, when you really look carefully at the verses that

are used to support the rapture theory, it just doesn't hold water.

So,

Yeah,

no rapture, not in the Bible.

no secret rapture or or or disappearing Christians rapture.

We are going to be caught up.

Paul says we shall be caught up and I certainly believe that we're going

to be caught up just like Jesus was taken up, but he didn't disappear.

He was taken up and we're going to be caught up.

Caught up at the visible loud second coming of Christ.

It's interesting that Billy Graham, one of the most respected

Christians has ever lived.

He wrote a book called answers to life's problems on page 309.

I believe it is.

He referred to 1st Thessalonians 4 and he said, this is the 2nd coming.

This is the second coming of Christ.

It's not a disappearing Christians seven years before the second coming.

So this whole structure of beliefs is really just not biblical.

And if I could just kind of shift quickly to the topic of the Antichrist.

We have rapture, tribulation, Antichrist and Israel.

Antichrist, and Israel.

I want to make one comment about Rapture because this comes up often,

and I don't even know if we need to comment, but if that secret Rapture

doesn't exist, then the people that get in arguments over pre mid post,

That's right.

a mute point too, right?

Exactly.

and then they'll still go back into the, well, are you a pre post middle?

Right.

I'm

Yeah.

and my book brings all this out that the argument between pre trib, mid

trib, post trib is all based on the assumption that there's a seven year trib.

So, pre trib is beginning of the seven years do we go up, middle of the seven

years do we go up, end of the seven years do we go up, when do we go up,

but the whole thing is based on the assumption that there's a seven year

tribulation at all described in the Bible.

And the fact is, you can read from Genesis to Revelation,

you can look in a concordance.

I've got my concordance in the back of this bible.

There is no seven year tribulation in the bible.

Tribulation is there great tribulations there, but seven year tribulation

It's gone and it's really based on a misinterpretation of daniel 9 27, which

describes the seven year period and it says He will confirm the covenant

with many for one week, which day for years, seven years, and then it says

he will cause the sacrifice to cease.

And so people interpret this to mean he's the antichrist.

He's gonna make a covenant with the Jews.

He's gonna stop the sacrifices of the rebuilt temple.

That's the way they interpret it.

But the text says nothing like that.

There's no Antichrist in Daniel 9, 27.

There's no rebuilt temple in Daniel 9, 27.

the context is it's the 70th week after the 69th week.

And the previous two verses talk about the Messiah.

It's all about the Messiah and the Messiah.

He, the Messiah is the one.

Who confirmed the covenant, the new covenant with his disciples.

Jesus said, this is my blood of the new covenant shed for many for the forgiveness

of sins, quoting Daniel 9 27 and after 3.

5 years in the middle of the seven years, he caused the sacrifice to

cease by his death on the cross.

Matthew Henry is one of the most famous.

Bible commentaries in Christian history.

And if you go online, you can just open up and say, what did

Matthew Henry say about Daniel 927?

He didn't say it applied to the antichrist to rebuild temple or

future seven years of tribulation.

He said he is Jesus Christ and he caused the sacrifice to

cease by his death on the cross.

So people are picking up Daniel 927, applying it to seven years of tribulation,

moving it down to the end of time.

Believing in a rapture at the beginning of the seven years and the whole thing, you

know It's just like you said when you're reading left behind you realized this is

just a lot of fiction With a few bible verses in there and that's the same way

futurism is it's a phony eschatology It's not based on scripture and that's what

end time delusions really is all about is showing is proving that From the Bible.

Yeah, you do a great job.

I think if there's anyone that has recognized that they are steeped or

they're full of, or whatever words they want to use, some of these words,

you know, rapture and when are they going to rebuild that temple so that

that's the clock starts and all this kind of stuff, you do a great job of

giving history and picking those apart, which then I do want to, I do We had

Antichrist, but we also have Israel.

So I don't know if this is a good time to bring up Israel because

we're in, in the news today

I know

and all my life, truthfully, Israel has been in the news.

What we'll call the nation, not the nation of Israel biblical, but the nation of

Israel, like the nation of, South Africa, the nation of whatever has been in the

news since, as far as I can remember.

And there is a thought by a lot of Christians that all the Jews and

with your Jewish background, this is fascinating to have this conversation,

that they all need to come back there so that a certain percentage of them

be destroyed around the end of time.

That's a little bit of my sarcasm coming out, but, Israel.

What are we getting wrong about Israel in our current dispensationalism?

a lot.

We're getting a lot wrong and I definitely and I pray for the people in Lebanon.

I pray for the people in Israel and the Gaza Strip.

The whole thing is a mess.

It's a terrible, terrible, terrible crisis and there's a lot of Bible verses about.

war nation rising against nation that we can apply to what's happening over there.

But when it comes to the topic of Israel in Bible prophecy, and just in

a nutshell, and my book goes into a lot of this, Paul in the New Testament.

Describe actually describes two Israels.

Just like we have two eyes.

We all have two eyes.

We have two ears.

Paul describes not just one Israel, two Israels in Romans nine six.

He said they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

First Corinthians 10 18.

He describes Israel after the flesh.

And then in Galatians 6, 16, he describes the Israel of

God that is centered in Jesus.

And in a nutshell, as I mentioned, I was Jewish.

And I consider myself now part of Israel back then, but I

was Israel after the flesh.

I was just the natural descendant of Abraham, but I had no real spiritual life.

So when I got on my knees when I was 20 years old and accepted Jesus into my

heart and the Holy Spirit came into my life, then I became, I was born again

and I became part of the Israel of God.

And Paul is very clear in Galatians chapter 3 and chapter 6 that the

Israel of God is made up of Jewish people who believe in Jesus.

non Jewish people who believe in Jesus.

They're all part of the Israel of God.

And when you read the book of Revelation, that is the Israel.

That is the apocalyptic center of the storm.

It's the people of God.

They're also called the saints.

They're the people that are following Jesus.

They follow the lamb wherever he goes.

And so.

People, what people are doing is they're looking at Israel after the flesh.

They're looking at the Jewish state and they're making the Jewish state

the center of the, of the end times.

And that's a mistake.

It's not scriptural.

It's not in the book of revelation.

Now they're reading certain old Testament texts, which lead them in that direction.

But they're not looking at all the New Testament verses

in the Book of Revelation.

And it's similar to what the rabbis did.

The rabbis read the Old Testament text and they said the Messiah is going to

conquer the Romans and exalt the Jews.

And people are today developing a similar thinking, but they're not

filtering everything through Christ.

Jesus is very clear that, in John chapter 8, John the Baptist is clear

in Matthew chapter 3, John the Baptist told a whole group of Jewish leaders.

He said, don't think you can say to yourself, we have Abraham as our

father, because God can raise up.

Children to Abraham from these stones.

And he said, the axis laid to the root of the tree.

And if the tree does not bear fruit, it's cut down and thrown into fire.

there's no new Testament support for the idea that just because a

person is a physical Jew or the state of Israel, or the Jewish state

that that they have a claim to, to God's protection in the end times.

People are misreading this.

The book of Revelation says nothing about earthly Jerusalem.

It's all the heavenly Jerusalem.

Every single reference to Jerusalem in the book of Revelation.

John says, I saw the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven like a

bride adorned for her husband.

And That's our hope.

So bottom line is, Gentiles and Jews who believe in Jesus

become part of the Israel of God.

They're the ones that are going to be under assault by

the devil in the final days.

And if we, trust the Lord and he's with us and we believe in him, we follow his word.

Our home is the new Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem has no role in

the book of revelation, not one text.

It's just like seven years of tribulation, not one text disappearing Christians,

not one text, the Jewish state in the book of revelation, not one text.

it's a mammoth, system.

of illusion and delusion.

Yeah, and and so I Just to kind of say this for someone listening

in there's no reason a Christian to start to keep running around

looking for the red heifer They're

That's right.

for the temple and all that just stop it.

All right, so we've hit two out of the big three

Yeah, we got to get the other one.

This next one, Antichrist, the Antichrist, Antichrist spirit.

let's go ahead and bust that one up a little bit.

The Antichrist, Steve, what do you want to say about that?

Yeah.

Well, the word Antichrist is used five times in the New Testament.

First and second John refers to, the spirit of Antichrist or John

said there are many Antichrists.

he said they went out from us, 1st John 2, 18 and 19, showing that these many

Antichrists were coming out of the church.

but then John said, but they are not of us.

They came out from us, but they're not of us.

So there's no support in 1st and 2nd John for one man.

being the Antichrist.

Now, the prophecies of Daniel Revelation do talk about a little

horn that would rise out of the fourth beast, which was the Roman Empire.

It does talk about, the man of sin Paul described in second Thessalonians

two coming from the falling away.

It describes this beast in Revelation 13.

It describes the harlot woman riding upon a seven headed beast in Revelation 17.

So there's all these symbolisms of something that is Antichrist.

During the time of the 1500s, when Martin Luther first started reading a Bible,

got a hold of a Bible, first book off the printing press was a Bible, and he began

to read the Bible and look at the church, look at the Bible, looked at the church,

he realized that the church that he was part of was not following scripture,

and he tried to reform the church.

And he started spreading the knowledge of scripture and then the church, the

head, the leadership in Rome said, if you don't turn away from your crazy ideas,

we're going to burn you at the stake.

And Luther said, we'll see about that.

And so that resulted in the protestant reformation.

And there's a famous saying that in the time of the Reformation, the

Protestants discovered Jesus Christ and they discovered Antichrist.

And it's no secret that if you go back 400 years and go back to Luther, the Lutheran

Church, Wesley, the Methodist Church, Calvin, the Presbyterian Church, Spurgeon,

the great Baptist pastor in London, it's no secret that they all understood Jesus.

The Antichrist of Prophecy to be the Roman Catholic Church system

centered in the false authority of the Pope, but that now that doesn't

mean that all Catholics are evil

But it does mean that there's a system that is pinpointed in

prophecy as being Antichrist.

And then what happened was the Catholic Church.

Countered that with the counter reformation and they commissioned the

Jesuit to create different ideas the preterist idea It all happened in the

past Nero was the Antichrist in that view and then the futurist idea is that

the Antichrist is coming way in the future and then Darby and Schofield They,

you know, adapted this idea and made it ultimately, and then you get to how

Lindsay left behind that the Antichrist is one man who shows up after we're gone.

But that is not Protestant theology.

It's not the original Baptist teaching or the Lutherans or the Methodist.

They believe that the Antichrist was a system centered in a man.

That was leading people away from Jesus Christ and the gospel and

grace sola scriptura, only the Bible, only grace, only faith.

That was the Protestant, motto and their cry, their battle cry.

So all this history is in end time delusions, as you know.

And so to me, it's a battle between antichrist

Very similar to, and you do a good job of saying this, we're saying anything

against, we'll call it the Jewish people, and we're also not saying

anything against Catholics in general.

It's the leadership.

It's the papal Rome.

right.

I think the thing, I have said this often here.

We, our current culture, we're a product of that Greco Roman system that

system is playing into a lot of what's rising up that, that we're seeing here.

I believe that.

We're, I'm watching our time here and we are really pressed.

you've studied Revelation quite a bit, and I've recently gone through

a study of Revelation in a way that I never had up to that point.

What do people need to know about that book, especially

people that have avoided it?

while you're thinking about that, let me add, there's something else that

came in from Marcus that asked the question, again, this guy, he's a pastor

too, went to Fuller Seminary down in California, a fellow podcaster also, it

might be a good conversation for you.

Marcus wanted to know, why do you think John wrote Revelation?

when there's a lot of things that revolve around the date of the writing of some of

the New Testament, especially as it starts going into that AD 70 type scenario.

So maybe those two things, if you could hit those quickly and then talk about

do we need to know about Revelation?

Wow.

You

We got to have a part too, Tim.

So yeah, John wrote the book of 70 AD was when Jerusalem was destroyed.

John, according to the most accurate and majority of historical understandings,

wrote the book around 96 AD he wrote the book because he had a vision on

the Island of Patmos and Revelation chapter one, where Jesus came to him

in all of his glory and said, I want you to write down what I'm telling you.

So that's why he wrote the book.

There's many things in the book of Revelation that we need to understand.

Number one, Jesus is the Lord.

He's the, he's our great high priest in heaven.

He's coming back again.

He's going to win in the battle between good and evil.

And he wants us to be, to overcome by the blood of the lamb and by the word

of our testimony, Revelation 12, 11, he wants us to hold on and, and trust him.

And no matter what happens, he's going to bring us through.

So all those things are in Revelation.

I'd like to just kind of plant a seed, maybe.

You know, what you said, what should we know about Revelation?

And there's so many other things, but Revelation 13 verse 11 says, I saw

another beast coming up out of the earth.

He had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

I've written a whole book on this called the United States in Bible prophecy.

This book will give away for free to your, At least the first 10 callers

and maybe more who call our office.

But I build the case in this book that this verse, a beast, according

to Daniel, seven is a nation, just like Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

This beast comes up out of the earth, which applies to a.

sparsely populated area in contrast with the sea, which represents lots

of people where Babylon, Persia and Greece came up, comes up out of

the earth down near the end times.

He has 2 horns, indicating a separation of power.

These horns have no crowns, which, like the 1st beast in chapter 13

has crowns on his horns, indicating this beast is not ruled by.

Kingly power.

And then it's two horns like a lamb.

It has Christian characteristics.

And Jesus also said, give to Caesar what is Caesar's gift to God.

What is God's separating the things of government from religion, that

government is not to force people to become a certain religion.

And then it says, and he spoke as a dragon and I build my case.

And I did this at the Pentagon.

I was invited to speak at the Pentagon in 2007, one of the most exciting experiences

of my life, and I gave a Bible study with PowerPoint slides to a group of people.

And I built my case that the only nation on earth that fits this prophecy

is the United States of America.

And that America is in a transition stage from the lamb to the dragon.

And eventually.

America is going to speak like a dragon, but the lamb is going to win because

he's king of kings and lord of lords, and we're all in a battle between the dragon

and the lamb between satan and Jesus.

I believe it's very important as we're getting close to the elections that

America has a place in Bible prophecy.

We are a mighty nation that still has religious freedom.

That has Christian principles, but these principles are going to break

down and eventually, America is going to speak like a dragon, but Jesus is

going to come and conquer the dragon and deliver those who follow the lamb.

So I think that's important for us to know.

Yeah, that is interesting.

I've actually got to get that book because I'm still having trouble making that.

I'm having trouble seeing that as America, but.

I will study that.

So I appreciate you bringing that up.

And love that you've been able to discuss this in some powerful circles.

So big question.

I do want to ask what.

Does the average Christian that's listened in with something we've hit

pretty quickly, what do they need to do?

All right.

So let's just say the United States is in revelation and we know we've

heard about, you know, the rapture Antichrist Israel and how we've

got some delusions about that.

they need to read your book because you do a great job of really picking that apart

even more, but what do they need to do?

Well, yeah, we all need to humble ourselves.

We need to confess the sins that we're aware of to Jesus, our pride,

whatever else we're dealing with.

and lay those sins on Christ, who died on the cross for every sin that we've

ever committed, who loves us no matter what, who died and rose from the dead,

who went to heaven and who's coming back.

And so we need to give our lives to Jesus, confess our sins, recommit

to following the Bible, every word that comes from the mouth of God

and to being his true followers.

In these final days that stand up for him and don't buckle in the midst

of all the pressures of the world that are pulling us away from Jesus.

So that's really the bottom line and try to put aside preconceived

opinions and study the Bible.

I do believe that my books are valuable to help people study the Bible.

White Horse Media has a lot of fantastic resources, but our goal

is not to give people our own ideas.

Our goal is to direct people to the word of God.

So they study the word of God.

You know, Jesus said, those who hear my words and do them are like a wise

man who built his house on the rock.

And when the rain comes, the storms hit and the floods, Blow that house will

stand because it's on the rock and those who hear my words, but don't do them

They're like a foolish man who builds his house on the sand And when the rain

comes down the storm hits the floods beat against that house It's going to

fall because it's on the sand and so bottom line What we need to do is we

need to build on jesus and the rock and be prepared to stand no matter what

Great, great finish.

and that helps us avoid what the word delusions here.

I love

Yes

delusions there.

And I will say that there, there's great information in this book specifically

because that's the one I read.

That caused me to want to do additional study.

And I think there's value in that.

Steve, two quick questions as we wrap up here, cause I'm watching our time.

You mentioned that you've got some resources that people can get.

So now if you can maybe tell people exactly where to go to find you, to

get your information, your books, we'll include it in the links to

people that are watching the video.

They'll be able to see it, but people listening on the audio, they may

need the information to be, audible.

So, where can people find you and get your information?

Yeah, white horse media.

That's what the name of our ministry.

We pick the name because Jesus is coming in Revelation 19.

It's described on a white horse.

So we're the white horse people.

And Jesus is the rider on the horse.

He's the center of everything we do.

So white horse media dot com is our main website.

We have a YouTube channel, just go to YouTube and type in white horse media.

You'll find a lot.

And we have a whole new video series coming out called America and the dragon

that goes right through revelation 1311.

and we have these books that we're offering first 10 callers for free and

maybe 11 or 12, you know, we have a fund people have donated some money for this.

So we have a little book, American prophecy, United States and prophecy and

time delusions and approaching Armageddon.

These are great resources.

We also have a Bible school.

Whitehorsemediabibleschool.

com.

It's a free online Bible school.

So we're on a lot of places.

People can find us.

They can call.

We have a toll free number, 878 Bible, 878 Bible.

Very good.

We'll make sure we include that, and I appreciate you making

those resources available.

I know that you said this End Time Delusions is not necessarily the 101.

I actually think it's written, though, still in a language that anybody

gather because of the history and some of the things you give there.

So, uh, you know, it wasn't like a deep scholarly paper, I guess, is one of the

Good.

I'm glad you feel that way.

Yeah,

Yeah, I think approaching Armageddon is Prophecy 101.

Maybe End Time Delusions is maybe Prophecy 5.

0.

I have some other books, which are Prophecy 10.

0.

You know, they're more involved, but we start where people are

at and we lead them along.

But I try to write in a simple way that anybody can understand.

yeah, we just, we just need to get people stop to stop chasing after the

red heifers is what we really need to do.

So anyway, hey, Steve, we are seek go create those three words.

to allow you to choose one of those over the other two seek

go create that's our title.

So which word?

Don't overthink it.

Which word do you choose and why?

Yeah, create, Psalm 5110, you probably know this, David said,

create in me a clean heart, oh God, and renew a right spirit within me.

So I like that verse.

I like all of them.

I like seek and you will find.

I like go into all the world and preach the gospel.

But if I picked one right now, it would be create in me a clean heart.

Excellent.

Thank you for doing that.

Steve, I appreciate you taking the time to be here.

and pressing people to think more about it, cut through some of

the delusions and illusions and the deception that's out there.

get to a place where they've got some resources they could study.

But really, I love what you said to study it themselves,

That's right.

and, and study it out.

So I appreciate that.

I just want to honor you for doing that.

Thank you for being a guest.

Thank you for this conversation.

Could have talked for another hour or so or longer, but, I think

we've gotten people thinking, and maybe we'll look at a, a part two.

At some point we're, we're seek, go create here.

We've got new episodes every Monday.

On YouTube and all the podcast platforms until next time, continue

being all that you were created to be.