Fr. Charlie Fox joins Men of the Hearts to talk about his own vocation story, as well as formation, what it really is, and why it’s so important.

(0:42) Fr. Craig introduces this month’s guest, Fr. Charlie Fox, who’s about to move into a new position at Sacred Heart as the Vice Rector.

(3:39) Fr. Fox shares some of the blessings he’s experienced over the past month, including his preaching bootcamp, which helps seminarians become more skilled and comfortable with public speaking. Fr. David updates from his last month as well; his parish has just celebrated their Confirmations and First Communions.

(8:38) Fr. Craig asks Fr. Fox about any special gifts or talents he has, and Fr. Fox shares about his love of writing and his experiences writing for the greater Catholic community, as well as some of his exploits in writing as a seminarian at Sacred Heart.

(14:40) Fr. Fox shares his vocation story. He talks of growing up in an Irish Catholic family in Detroit and Redford and the gentle encouragement he always had from his parents to consider the priesthood. He also stresses the significance the Eucharist and the Mass had in his discernment.

(23:42) Fr. Fox explains what he was thinking, hearing, and feeling when discerning his vocation and when he has very specifically heard the Lord speaking to him and quelling his doubts. Fr. Fox and Fr. Craig reflect on the importance of commitment and closeness with the Lord throughout the discernment process.

(30:51) Fr. Craig asks if Fr. Fox was looking for any signs before he entered the seminary, and Fr. Fox says no, but that he was looking for inner clarity and certainty and he discusses the moral certitude often discussed when talking about vocations.

(35:26) Fr. Fox talks about his life at the seminary, the fraternity and education at Sacred Heart, and the formation experiences he had during that time. Fr. Craig shares memories of sitting in the refectory with older seminarians and getting to know them as role models. Fr. Fox adds that the like-minded community found in the seminary is a great reinforcement to one’s vocation.

(41:59) Fr. Fox defines formation as development as a man of God first and a priest according to the priesthood of Jesus second. He mentions the role of formation in developing habits in prayer and smoothing out our rough edges. He also discusses the four pillars of formation: spiritual, intellectual, apostolic, and human.

(48:36) Fr. Craig asks what formators and admissions boards are looking for in a seminarian, and Fr. Fox responds that men should be able to live in the program with peace and joy and can engage in the communal and academic life of the seminary. He remarks that the most important thing is that a man has confidence that God is calling him to the priesthood.

(51:33) Fr. David talks about Formation Saturday, a program Fr. Fox put on that featured talks on a pillar of formation from a different priest each week.

(56:52) Fr. Fox offers advice to men who are discerning the priesthood: don’t be afraid to take the next step. He encourages men to think not in terms of choosing between A and B, but of what the deeper choice of Jesus is in one’s life. He then closes in prayer.

Fr. Craig:

Welcome to Men of the Hearts, a monthly podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit Office of Priestly Vocations. Join me, your host, Father Craig Giera.

Fr. David:

And me, Father David Pelican.

Fr. Craig:

As we explore the priesthood, hear vocation stories from priests all over the archdiocese, and answer questions about discerning a priestly vocation. Tune in every month to wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at detroitpriestlyvocations.com. Well welcome everyone to another edition of Men of the Hearts podcast. Today we have on our second guest of the show, if you haven't heard our first guest, it was the Archbishop Allen Vigneron, that was our third episode, so please check that out if you haven't. Our second guest is a priest that I was in the seminary with for a number of years. I looked up to him, not only because he's a whole head taller than I am, but you know, he was about four years ahead of me in the seminary.

Fr. Craig:

And he just was one of those guys that you looked at and said, he's going to make a — he's going to be a good priest. And I want to look at what he does and kind of follow what he does because he just, you could tell he was going to be one of the good ones and he is and he's had a number of different assignments. He's been in a couple of different parishes. He was the secretary to the Archbishop. He's done the formation team here at the seminary. He teaches at the seminary as well, and he's going to start a new role quite soon as the vice rector. This is Father Charlie Fox. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Fr. Fox:

Thank you. It's really good to be with you. And I'm doing very well. Thank you.

Fr. Craig:

Awesome. Awesome. Well, it's glad to have you on, and then as always, Father David is with us as well. How are you doing today, Father David?

Fr. David:

I'm doing very well doing very well excited to welcome Father Fox to the podcast. I was, as I think our listeners mostly know I was at seminary for eight years and for a good chunk of that, Father Fox was at seminary in many roles. He was a formator, he was my basketball coach for a year, and was often known to tell me to fly like a pelican, or comment that the pelican has sprung wings. [laughs]

Fr. Craig:

That's great. That's great.

Fr. David:

He was also in charge of, like, liturgy at Sacred Heart for a little while and I was one of the masters of ceremony. So we worked together in that role as well a little bit.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. That's, that's amazing to think of the different, you know, roles that we play in, and actually just our relationships. So, I looked up to Father Charlie as he was four years ahead of me, and you had him always as someone who was looking down on you just to make sure you're doing well. [laughs] Not only in basketball, but in your seminary life and if you were reaching your goals and if you were able to move on to the next year, because of course every year you're getting evaluated. So how does it feel to have Father Fox now as your peer instead of your formator?

Fr. David:

Well, you know, I don't — it's good. It's good to be brothers in the priesthood and and see you here, although you still kind of feel like a formator, just seeing you on the screen there. Not gonna lie.

Fr. Fox:

I understand. I was in the same position 15 years ago, so I remember it. Yep.

Fr. Craig:

So Father Fox, before we get into your vocation story, what has been a blessing for you this past month? You know, I know the semester has just ended and you're starting something new at the seminary. You do a vocation — not a vocation — you do a preaching bootcamp with some of the seminarians. So, you know, how are things going for you? Any blessings that you've received over the last month?

Fr. Fox:

Well a couple. First of all, you mentioned the preaching bootcamp, which is the first stage in our formation for the men in terms of their homiletic preaching — their preaching of homilies, especially at Mass. And we bring in a couple of theatre professors from U of D Mercy and they help the men to develop basic speaking skills, to become more comfortable in their own skin when they're doing public speaking, to articulate words better, you know, to give speeches more effectively. And then we sort of move them into things that more particularly have to do with preaching itself. And so it's been really good to be able to do that program because last year, due to COVID, we were not able to. So that's been a blessing taking it another step towards getting back to normal, or at least the new normal.

Fr. Craig:

Well, I had one of the seminarians in my office this afternoon and I was asking him about the preaching bootcamp and what was going on with it. How was he doing? And he's like, it's a lot. They're really stretching me. And he's like, it's really good that we're doing this. And I guess you have a couple of theatre people that kind of help them along as well. Correct?

Fr. Fox:

We do, and I know it stretches the men and I try to be very clear with them that I'm aware of that, you know. It's okay to ask people for a lot, but you need to show that you're aware that you're asking them for a lot. And then the men are really willing to do a lot for you. And more importantly, for Christ because it helps a great deal to do this kind of ground work before they start taking — we have two homiletics classes as you know, in our School of Theology. And it really helps to get some of these basics out of the way before we have those homiletics classes, because then we can deal with things more having to do with the message itself, with the liturgical context of their preaching — things that have more to do with homilies specifically rather than public speaking in a more general sense.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, like look at the congregation, don't look at your notes. I remember the first time I had note cards and I put them down and I told the congregation, "I'm going to preach without my note cards today." And of course I got messed up and I had to go to the altar and I had note cards there and read it and they all laughed and it became a moment. But I think that moment helped me to realize that I could be open and real with the congregation and it was okay to make mistakes. And sometimes those mistakes make you more human and it connects you to your parishioners. So yeah, really good stuff. Father David, what have you been doing in the last month? What, anything special? I know you don't go to Costco anymore or at least pick up any good Costco stuff. What's with that?

Fr. David:

Man, I've just, you know, sometimes life gets busy. I did make a quick Costco run, but nothing really jumped out at me new to try this year — this month. So yeah, it's been a good month though. May, we just had our confirmations and we had First Communions and so actually one of the blessings for me was we had two First Communion Masses just with, COVID trying to split the kids up and everything. And I was able to celebrate one of those. So that was yeah, it's really a beautiful time just seeing the kids, you know, the kids — you've seen them in school so much, you've seen them getting so excited for that day. To just come to that day and receive Jesus for the first time.

Fr. Craig:

And you said that you got to be in their class throughout most of the years. So you were telling me some stuff beforehand about like, "Show me what love is all about," and what did they do?

Fr. David:

Oh, I'm very proud. My second graders, if I ask them for, to give me a good definition of love, they don't say anything. They point at Jesus on the cross.

Fr. Craig:

Isn't that amazing? That's awesome.

Fr. David:

Hey, if they can remember that, that's a beautiful thing.

Fr. Craig:

So our listeners might not know, also, I opened the garage one day and here is Father David with his circular saw just cutting some wood up in the garage, you know, "What are you doing there, Father David?" And he was making something, you want to tell us what you were doing?

Fr. David:

I was attempting to make a bluebird house actually. Yeah, it turned out pretty well. I just did a little project with a group of young adults, and it was carpentry for the Year of St. Joseph. And so I had remembered building bluebird houses with my dad and wanted to make sure that I actually remembered how to do it before the actual event. And I think I pulled it off okay. So, yeah.

Fr. Craig:

Awesome. Awesome. Father Fox. Do you want me to call you Father Charlie or Father Fox? We didn't discuss that beforehand.

Fr. Fox:

Whatever you do for yourselves is good for me.

Fr. Craig:

All right. Well, Father Fox, it just rolls off my tongue a lot better. Do you have any special gifts that you, you do yourself? Anything, working with your hands or anything?

Fr. Fox:

Oh I have all kinds of special gifts. [laughs] Let me tell you all about them at great length and in great detail. You know, I really enjoy writing. I don't have any talents musically or in terms of being handy or any of that sort of thing, but I do enjoy writing very much. And so I've been publishing lots of articles lately in different Catholic publications, including our own Detroit Catholic. And I get a lot of satisfaction out of that. It's a way of exercising the teaching ministry of a priest and hopefully inspiring people a little bit. And it's very helpful for me to have a connection outside the seminary, as much as I love working in seminary formation. It's really good to be connected to the wider Catholic community in that way.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. I think you're a wonderful writer. I actually had that in my notes to talk about, like, I know that you're an amazing writer and there's some rumors going around that when you were a seminarian you used to put out a underground magazine called the Crumbling Tower, and I think you exposed the fake doctorate of Dr. Smoothie? Is that true?

Fr. Fox:

I can neither confirm nor deny those allegations. I can only say that the editorial quality of the underground newspaper at that time was of the very highest caliber.

Fr. Craig:

It was. And Dr. Smoothie was exposed. For those who don't know, we actually had a smoothie machine in the refectory, in the cafeteria there at the seminary. And it wasn't like a healthy smoothie. It was basically like a Slurpee type thing and it never worked, but Dr. Smoothie was on front of it saying, "You need your smoothie today."

Fr. Fox:

Well, speaking of matters cafeterial we also were — I mean, the underground newspaper editorial team was also able to get Fancy Catsup out of the cafeteria menu. And we had Heinz Ketchup from that point on, and so a lot of good was done.

Fr. David:

Great accomplishments. [laughs].

Fr. Fox:

That was journalism at its finest.

Fr. David:

Now father Fox, you said you had no musical talent, and I have to correct you there. You do have a music related talent of knowing and being able to name or recognize just about every theme song from a certain era.

Fr. Fox:

Fr. Craig:

Well, I remember, you have a wide array of knowledge of pop culture in the eighties and nineties. So we might quiz you on some of that a little bit later on. What's going on with me. Yeah. You know, not much has been going on. I took a vacation and didn't do anything on my vacation. So it was one of those things where I just sat around, Father David knows I was watching a lot of TV, not doing anything productive, and sometimes those are the best vacations. I did have a very interesting conversation with a man as I was waiting for my food in line, there was this — they were kind of behind, I was getting sushi, by the way, and they were kind of behind. And this one guy was sitting there for an hour here, or at least he told me it was an hour and he looked at me and he goes, yeah, you'd take about an hour and a half.

Fr. Craig:

I go, what do you mean? He goes, well, I work at a crematorium and you would take an hour and a half. I'm like, that's really interesting. And he started like looking at [inaudible] and saying he would take that long, and this person would take this long. And his whole look at life was looking how long it would take to cremate people. And I just thought that was kind of interesting that that was his view of the world. Interesting guy to talk to. I just, it made me think about how, when the Lord says, if your eye is sound then your whole body is sound, and what is the lens that we look at different things, and his lens was what he does when he works at his, you know, crematorium and for funerals. And we should be looking always about what, what the Lord wants us to be looking at and to see the goodness in people and how we can help and how it can be Lord to other people.

Fr. Craig:

So I just thought I'd share that with you. And then also we have our ordinations coming up, we have three ordinations, two on one day and another one week afterwards. And two of the ordinations are for two older guys. They went to a different seminary than Sacred Heart. They went to Saint John XXIII, and it's a seminary specifically for older vocations. Those who are over 30, all the way up into their fifties and sixties. So for any of our older guys listening out here who might think they might have a vocation to the priesthood that there are different places to be looking at in the future. So we do work with older men as well. So Father Fox you know, I don't ever remember hearing your vocation story. I don't really know how you came to get into the seminary. So it would be wonderful if you just want to share with us what you want to share!

Fr. Fox:

I'm sort of preoccupied by what your crematorium friend might say when he saw me. [laughs] Put me in and then go to bed and wake up in the morning and hope I was finished or something. Yeah. You know, I grew up in an Irish Catholic family here in mostly the city of Detroit, but you know, we did live for a good while in Redford Township as well. And so I'm local and went to Catholic schools in Redford, St. Agatha, which no longer exists sadly, but was a great Catholic school at the time, and then St. Valentine, which is still in Redford. And then went to St. Agatha High School, at the time that parish had a high school as well. And it was natural for me to think about the priesthood. I was in a family that encouraged thinking about the priesthood, but my parents were always very careful not to push. And that might sound obvious now, but there was a time in Irish Catholic families when it was typical for some young men to be identified as potential priests and nudged in that direction.

Fr. Fox:

And my parents were very careful not to do that. And yet they were encouraging and we certainly lived our Catholic faith, went to Mass every Sunday. And that was really, I mean, if there's a way to sort of boil down the message of my vocation it's that it has been inspired by and driven by the holy Eucharist. The celebration of Sunday Mass was at the heart of my own family's practice of the faith. I thought our parish was a little slice of heaven on earth when I was a boy, I loved Catholic school, had a strong devotion to the Blessed Mother, and then, you know, lots of that went away in later junior high and then through high school. I never stopped practicing the faith, but just wasn't nearly as fervent about it and became interested in other possible careers, including journalism, or I thought about law school for a while.

Fr. Fox:

And also thought very seriously about getting married and having a family. So I did give that vocation really close, serious consideration, and that kind of continued through a few years of college. And then at some point, a couple of things happened. One was that I went to confession in a more serious way for the first time in a long time. And by that, I mean, I haven't really — hadn't really given a lot of thought to my confessions for several years. And I made sure this time to confess everything, to put it all before the Lord, which we all know is essential for receiving God's forgiveness, that we confess every more serious or mortal sin that we're aware of in order to be forgiven. But I hadn't — you know, that wasn't so clear in my mind through high school. And so in college, I did make a big confession at St. Valentine.

Fr. Fox:

And I remember it was to Monsignor Gerald Flanagan, who was a really great priest — now he's died a few years ago, but God rest him. But he was really, really a good confessor and helped me a ton even in that one confession. And so that happened. And at, around the same time, I began reading the Bible more regularly. And I remember sitting in my parents' library one evening and I was reading Matthew's Gospel. And it was, you know, I was just reading texts like, "What good does it do you to gain the whole world and forfeit your life, for what can you give in exchange for your life?" And it was sort of like one of those 'scales falling out of your eyes' moments where I realized that if I really believed everything I said, I believed, especially like in the profession of faith at Sunday Mass, if I really believed all of that, then it had to make more of a difference in my life.

Fr. Fox:

It was illogical for it to make so little difference in my life as it had done for several years up to that point. And that was another big catalyst. Just kind of having that intellectual realization that I did believe those things and that they ought to make more of a difference. And so I began praying much more regularly, even began praying the rosary. I had a job — I'm sort of, you know, bringing together a few years of experiences — but it was around that time that I had a job where I was able to pray the rosary in the car pretty regularly. So I just turned off those 80s songs. And you know, for 15, 20 minutes, I would pray the rosary as I was driving around Metro Detroit

Fr. Craig:

Is this after or still while you're in college?

Fr. Fox:

This would have been just after college, you know, the earlier experiences of confession. And, you know, that moment in my parents' house, that was towards the end of college. And so I automatically began thinking about the seminary again. But took my time. You know, I still was really attracted to the possibility of marriage and family life. And so I just prayed and began to pray more and more. And then I started to go to daily Mass at St. Valentine and, you know, the people there were so faithful and are so faithful, although many of them have died, since they inspired me a lot and just being at Mass every day and receiving holy Communion, all of that made a huge difference in my life. You know, as you grow closer and closer to the Lord, you are almost inevitably going to discover his will, which is to say, you're going to discover what it means when he says to you as an individual, "Come and follow me."

Fr. Fox:

Fr. Fox:

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. You want to explain that a little bit? 'Cause I get guys asking me this as well of like, "Yeah, I want to get closer to the Eucharist," and, "Yeah, I'll go to Eucharistic Adoration or go to Mass more often." I mean, how was the Lord speaking to you with you growing closer to the Eucharist? How was the — like, what did you hear? Did you hear that audible voice in your head? You just felt more at peace when you thought about the vocation? Like what was going on at that time with you?

Fr. Fox:

I did not hear an audile voice. The only time — that did happen once, but not till much later. So fast forward to what we call Theology III, which is the second to last year of six years of seminary formation, in my case. And I was having some doubts about whether God was really calling me to the priesthood. And so this is very late in the game to be having second thoughts. And I only heard — you know, and when I say heard, I mean, I don't know if it would have been recorded on my microphone here, but it was very clear to me that I was hearing, you know, with my ears, with my mind, with my heart, one word, and that was no. And, which is a funny thing to hear from the Lord. You know, you'd think Jesus always says yes, you know, he's always positive, but it was like, God was saying to me that these doubts are not coming from me.

Fr. Fox:

I mean, that's what the no meant, like, "Shut that off, that's not from me, stay on the course." And you know, I brought that to my spiritual director. I mean, that's a huge help if you can get guidance in this process of discernment and commitment to get some guidance to help know the Lord's voice is really important. And that made it much clearer to me that I was called, that I was having normal doubts, a temptation to turn away and that I was not supposed to do that, that that was not from God and that I was supposed to keep going towards the priesthood. But in all other cases, it was about being close to the Lord, you know, sort of like that image at the Last Supper of John the apostle laying his head against, you know, Jesus's chest you know, in those intimate moments for all the apostles gathered around him at the last supper, but it's that kind of intimacy where you can communicate with the Lord on a deeper level, you know, in that passage, in John's Gospel, they actually ask John to speak to Jesus for them at one point.

Fr. Fox:

And that's the kind of closeness you get when you're attending daily Mass and engaged in Adoration. And just spending time with the Lord, you know, giving him your time, your commitment becomes deeper. Jesus becomes who he is, you know, Emmanuel. God with us in a more vibrantly, richly felt way. And in that closeness, you just gradually, step by step discover his will. And again, get the strength to commit. We talk all the time about discernment and that's essential, but we need discernment and commitment.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. And I think it's really important to have, as you said, getting closer to the Lord being like John laying on his breast and just being close to the Lord and just his heart. And when you are in the presence of your friends for a long time, you just know when your friend's angry or he's not, or, you know, or they want to leave or they want to stay at the party you're at, or whatever's going on. And I think the more we spend time with the Lord, even if we're not saying anything, that the Lord is still speaking to us and that when these movements come to us of like, "Hey, you might have a vocation to the priesthood," or, "Hey, I want you to reach out into the deep, you know, and maybe try this mission trip or do this," that because you've been with the Lord, you know that that's his voice. He says, "My sheep will know my voice," and you will not know the Lord's voice unless you spend time with him. So I just highly, highly, highly encourage anybody who's thinking about the priesthood, you got to go to Mass more often, you got to be by the Eucharist, you gotta do Eucharistic Adoration, or you at least be in the church with the physical presence of the Eucharist and the tabernacle. So I'm glad you brought that up Father Fox, because that's, that's such a key thing to be doing when you're discerning.

Fr. Fox:

If I might just add one point, you know, we asked the question, you know, does the Lord speak to us in words, as we're growing closer to him in the Eucharist? And the answer is absolutely. The words of scripture. I mean, that's the Word of God. And so to read scripture is to discover God's will for humanity, but also for ourselves. And so scripture and Eucharistic Adoration and closeness are very intimately connected to each other. And we need both of them in order to grow closer to the Lord.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. And how special it is now that you can have all of these apps with the Bible on it. You can listen to Bible in a Year. They've got YouTube videos about commentary. It's just, yeah. You need to be very close to — I remember when when I was thinking about the priesthood for a whole year, if not more, I carried around my Bible everywhere I went, it just was a part of me. And I just opened it up all the time. And I still have that Bible and the pages are just crimped and wet with holy water and everything because I carried it with me everywhere. Yeah. And it was just always a reminder that God is speaking to us. Father David, did you ever experience like that or like, was scripture really important to you at that time?

Fr. David:

I would say both of those things, both scripture and the Eucharist, and especially for me, it was Mass and adoration. But, but I think both of those things were just essential for, I think what you're both articulating is like, just becoming familiar with the Lord where, you know, you're comfortable in his presence and you start to recognize just the ways he speaks in your life. I, when I first told my pastor that I was thinking about becoming a priest, he recommended that I read scripture for 15 minutes every evening. And I started doing that, you know — not perfectly, I'd skip days or weeks sometimes, but just to start to form that habit. And then times — I always loved serving Mass because I was even closer to what was going on there. And I think both of those things were just you know, hindsight 20/20, but they were preparing me for that vocation and to be able to recognize and respond to it. Yeah.

Fr. Craig:

I didn't even think about that being an altar server, I didn't start altar serving until I was 24 years old, so you're never too old to start to become an altar server. And I encourage that as well. Well, Father Fox, did you like ask for any signs before you entered the seminary? Was there something that you were looking for or was there a particular fear that you had to overcome before you really said yes and made it to the vocation office?

Fr. Fox:

No. It would be easy to say yes. But no, I wasn't looking for a sign. What I was looking for is the inner sense of clarity and certainty. You know, when we talk about discernment, sometimes we use the technical terms you know, moral certitude versus absolute certitude and without diving too deeply into those waters, the point is to say, what we're looking for is a kind of moral certitude where I believe this to be true enough, that I'm ready to commit my life to it. You know? So it's not two plus two equals four kind of certitude. That's absolute certitude, but moral certitude is just as strong and even stronger. You know, it's the kind of certitude that says, for example, my mother loves me. Now, I have not had a DNA test to prove that Rosemary Fox is my mother, but I know she is my mother.

Fr. Fox:

And I know she loves me and I'm ready to live or die on that truth. And that's the kind of certitude we're looking for ultimately. Now that's — you don't need to be quite that far along in order to enter the seminary. What you need is a sense of confidence, that there's a good possibility God is calling you to the priesthood and that he is calling you to step into it a little bit more to give it more of an intensive try. And in today's world with all the pressures that act against a priestly vocation, that inclination to enter seminary by itself is a very good and strong piece of evidence. So sometimes, you know, men want so much from the Lord, whether it's signs or a really strong and clear word from him. And sometimes they don't realize that the very fact that they're taking a vocation to the priesthood so seriously and think it might be a good fit for them is already in itself a really important piece of evidence. Now, it's not decisive by itself, you know, further discernment is needed, but you also, can't just sort of set that aside and then say, well, now I'm going to begin my discernment. Well know the fact that you even want to discern in this world is already a piece of evidence. And so, you know, we need to take all of this into account.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, yeah. We don't have to look at like huge signs, just everyday life of, Hey, why is it that you're going to Mass every single day? Hey, why is it that you read the Bible every single day? I mean, we all should be, you know, doing to some extent more than just coming to our Sunday obligation, but yeah. You know, signs can speak volumes and they don't have to be ones where we levitate and God speaks to us or comes down to us.

Fr. Fox:

Well, and if I might add in with my background, as I was saying in an Irish Catholic family, sort of the default position was if you feel called to holiness, you're probably called to the priesthood. And so what I had to do actually was discern carefully to make sure that I understood that it's possible to be called to holiness without being called to the priesthood, you know, not automatically to join those two together. And so some of my discernment had to be stepping back a little bit from the priestly vocation in order to recognize, listen, all of us are called to holiness. And so this conversion experience I've had as a young adult could be a call to marriage and family, but to do that in a holy way, which would make perfect sense rather than automatically thinking it meant a priestly vocation, but then of course through the years I discovered it does mean a priestly vocation.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. The way you put it, you're giving Father David a run for his money as residents smart person who made it through seminary with all As. We can tell that you certainly know your stuff. Yeah. You know you know, we did ask about signs and we asked about maybe fears and different things like that, but what was your life like during seminary? Like what was going on in your spirituality and, you know, discernment doesn't stop once you make it in. So what was that like for you?

Fr. Fox:

The first two years were heaven on earth. Honestly, I loved the seminary at the beginning, and that's not a lead up to, "then I hated it." But there was something really special about those first couple of years. It was something about the dedication involved in the life we were living, which — I had never been involved in such a life before, you know, of constant prayer and study and fraternity with the other seminarians and the great models of the priesthood we had on the faculty at the time, including Archbishop Vigneron, who was the rector or the head of the seminary at the time. It was really great. I had wonderful friends and new experiences and got to travel. You know, we went to Mexico my first year to study Spanish and I went to Brazil my second year for a missionary experience. And then on a European pilgrimage because the Holy Land was not — it wasn't safe enough to travel there for our normal Holy Land pilgrimage, but anyway, had all these incredible experiences and the fraternity and activities and just the constant enrichment through prayer and study.

Fr. Fox:

I thought it was fantastic now. Like all things, it became a little more dry as time went on and I became more used to it. And, you know, the rhythm of life stays the same for a while. But I always loved it and it really did help me to know what the priesthood would be like and to make a commitment to it, you know, 'cause I was always, you know, striving to grow closer to the Lord, to know him better, to love him more and to, you know, live the life as much as you can approximate that in an environment like the seminary. I mean, it's not exactly like a parish for example, but at least you have that kind of regimen of prayer and apostolic work and that sort of thing. And so I found it to be a really good environment. I mean, it had its challenges for sure. But I enjoyed my years in the seminary a lot

Fr. Craig:

Now, did you do CPC at your time there? 'Cause we didn't have that where you went to a hospital in the hospital ministry.

Fr. Fox:

Oh, CP and E? We did. And I — that was a wonderful experience in terms of the ministry to the patients. The rest of it was okay.

Fr. Craig:

Maybe that's why we didn't do it. Yeah.

Fr. Fox:

But that is why you didn't. Well, anyway. [laughs]

Fr. Craig:

But what was cool for us is like, you know, you talk about, you know, looking at holy priests and wanting to be like them. I mean, I could remember just your class, you know, as being a little bit ahead of me, we looked up you and even in the refectory, which is a fancy name in the seminary for cafeteria of like, you know, you get to sit down at a table with like you and a couple of your classmates. I was like, I got to sit at the cool table and you know, and joke around and hear what these guys that are now in Second Theology or Third Theology are at and what they're doing. It was really cool. It was special to me. So even as a seminarian you have a great role of just letting other people know or just being a witness to other people, and people will see that in you and that love of God in your life. I can remember the year before you left, we had — it was Holy Week and I just remember you sitting down reading scripture in front of our Chapel of Repose. And just, I just remember that, I don't know, there was something really special about that, that your love for, as you said, the Word and you being there with the Lord and sort or like the Garden of Gethsemane and Chapel of Repose was, oh, it was really special, kind of cool.

Fr. Fox:

Most of us grow up in environments where even if our families are devout Catholic families, we're not growing up surrounded by other people, other men who are seriously considering priestly vocations, it would be fairly unusual to grow up in that kind of environment. And so to come into a community of these awesome men who are pursuing the Lord's will in the same way that you are, is tremendously reinforcing to your vocation. As you say, your life is filled with countless moments of inspiration. Even if it's subconscious, you know, you see somebody else praying really devoutly or, you know, someone else gives a reflection that gives you a new insight into scripture or asks a good question in class, or, you know, you just see the daily faithfulness of the other men and it inspires you to do the same. And that's one of the challenges, as we all know, when you go off into the parish, you know, for the first few years you probably live with other priests, but then often you live on your own. And so one of the hopes of Families of Parishes is that that's going to bring priests closer together in community so that mutual fraternal reinforcement can happen again. Because it really does help, especially in a world where again, there are so many forces acting against fidelity to a priestly vocation.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, yeah. Even just for myself, I'm living with three other guys, of course, Father David, as well. And you know, I just got back from the retreat that I was on and sitting and talking to Father David about that was just, you know, we sat for 45 minutes just talking instead of me with my dinner in front of the TV watching, you know, The Office or something that, it just, it was a good thing. And I think, yeah, we certainly influence each other. Yeah, Fr. Fox, you want to talk maybe a little bit about what formation is and what formation is like in the seminary? I guess a guy might want to know, like, what is expected of me when I actually do make it into the seminary? What is formation? What is formation? What does it look like? And what are those four pillars that I hear about?

Fr. Fox:

So formation is a word like discernment that we use a lot and sometimes forget to define for people. It's really about development as a man of God first, and then as a priest, according to the priesthood of Jesus Christ second. So, I mean, it's all priestly formation, but there is a sense in which the first stage of it is just to help all of the men who come to the seminary grow in their own discipleship, their own following of Christ in their lives. So developing habits of prayer, habits of study the human qualities that are, you know, conducive to flourishing as a Christian and being polite. I mean, even something as simple as that — we all have rough edges that need to be smoothed. The doubt, you know, I remember very early in my time in the seminary, I was talking about my own experience, coaching sports and CYO.

Fr. Fox:

And I referred to another school's team as our enemies. And one of the formaters at the time said to me, "I think you mean rivals." Now that was a very subtle point to make, but it stuck with me all these years. And there are a thousand moments like that when your rough edges are getting smooth and you become a better person because of that, but you could live your whole life without being corrected in that way. And you know, even in the best of families, you know, there's — as Rod Stewart once said, all the wisdom of a lifetime, no one can ever tell.

Fr. Fox:

And so you need — all of us need more formation, more polishing, more development. So that's what those first years are really about. And then as you move into the graduate School of Theology, it becomes much more intensively about preparing to become a pastor, a leader, a priest, rather than merely a disciple. The presumption is you have already been pretty well formed as a disciple by that point, and now's the time to work on — so to get into your question about the four dimensions of formation, you know, you have the spiritual, the intellectual, the apostolic and the human, and each of those aspects or dimensions of formation is really essential. I mean, spiritual for obvious reasons; intellectual, because in order to love Christ, you have to know him, at least something about him. And then the more, you know him, the more apt you are, the more prepared you are to love him better and to speak about him to others and help them to know and love Christ.

Fr. Fox:

Then the apostolic, you know, make sure you have a pastor's heart, that you love people, that you want what's best for them, that you want their salvation, that you're willing to be self-sacrificial and serving them. All of that's essential, that you can give leadership, you know, that you can be a good follower or a good leader. And then the human is easy to overlook, but it's really important because sometimes you have a strong spiritual life and maybe decent leadership skills and could be very bright, but you have a personality which acts as an obstacle to those good qualities you have, kind of locking them inside because people don't want to get to know you, and they don't really want to spend time with you and you don't necessarily want to spend time with them. And so it's really helpful to grow in human qualities that make you — to use the cliche — more of a bridge than a wall.

Fr. Fox:

Another image I like to use is, you know, because I have arterial blockages that require stents you know, that sometimes lack of human formation can kind of choke off the spiritual life of the priest and his effectiveness as a leader. And so again, working on simple things like etiquette, how to relate to people, how to have a conversation, even to make chit chat, you know, not everything has to be profound. But it's often in those little human moments that you open the door to grace, or if you don't do that well, you close the door because people turn away from you. And so that kind of formation is also important. And so those, you know, four years of theology studies are really about growing in each of those areas precisely into not just discipleship, but the priesthood, leadership, pastoring.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. And like Father David was saying a couple episodes ago that, you know, even the friends that he knew that left the seminary, 'cause he was in a very large class when he started off that, you know, not everybody makes it eight years through the seminary is that they came out better men, you know, like they're still getting an education of what it is to be a real man. And part of being a real man is sacrificing yourself and to be able to work on yourself and to be humbled, to know that you're, you're not the best thing since sliced bread and you're going to make mistakes and you need to work on that. And it's hard sometimes, especially in our culture and our world today that says, you know, you can do anything you want. You're the best you're, here's a trophy for waking up today.

Fr. Craig:

You know, you know, it's like, no, we need to work on ourselves. And I think that's part of what it means to not only be a good man, but also to be a good disciple. And then hopefully if we move on in the seminary, as you're saying, Father Fox to become a man of God and to represent Christ to the people, especially as we are administering the sacraments. So yeah, that's really good stuff there. So what would you say — so a lot of the guys who would be listening to this right now you know, if they were to apply to the seminary, like, what is it that formation is looking for? Or what is it that the admissions board is looking for in a man who's applying to the seminary today?

Fr. Fox:

Looking for a man who can live our program with reasonable peace and joy and a sense of community, that he's going to fit in well with the other men. That he has the intellectual ability to, you know, engage in the academic program, that he has the stability of personality. Again, that'll be a good member of the community and has the potential to grow into being a good pastor, but no one should be intimidated by that. The biggest thing is you have a sense of confidence that God is calling you to the priesthood, or at least to give it this more intensive try. I had no idea what I was getting into when I applied for the seminary. I had no idea whether I qualified or not, you know, then, so that's what we're here for is to help you through that process.

Fr. Fox:

I had zero idea of what seminary life would be like when I arrived. I hadn't read many significant books. I had no familiarity with the daily schedule of the seminary. I mean, I just didn't know anything. Then I remember having a conversation with the vice rector at the time, Monsignor Halfpenny, and I expressed my concern that I knew so little and some of the other guys seem to know a lot about what was going on and have read a lot of books and all that. And he said, you know what? This can be a strength. I mean, you come in here ready to learn, ready to be formed, ready to, you know, live the program and to work with us and we'll work with you and, you know, we'll make you a good priest. And that gave me a lot of confidence. And certainly that's the attitude we take as formatters, that we're willing to work with somebody and want to work with somebody in order to help them become good priests and maximize their potential.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah. And what's good is, I mean, just looking at your life and how you lead, and you've helped me out when I was at a pastor at a parish and, you know, they really loved your preaching. And I think you're very personable and you're able to explain things in a particular way. You have a humor and God uses you, your uniqueness and your gifts for his glory. So I think a lot of times people think men think that if I come to the seminary, somehow what makes me me is going to be squashed, you know? And that's not necessarily true. In fact, usually the gifts that the Lord has given us, instead of using them for just regular purposes, the Lord can use them for his great graces. You know, one of the things I can think about — Father David brought this up — of like what you did for Formation Saturday, you want to explain, Father David, what Father Fox did for Formation Saturday?

Fr. David:

Ah, yeah. So in seminary once a month or so we have Formation Saturday and that means the morning there's going to be usually a talk by one of the priests and it can be on any aspect of formation. So it could be human, could be spiritual, could be something more intellectual, usually not so much that, though, that's usually covered in the classes throughout the week. And you know, it's Saturday morning and sometimes it's been a long week and and you know, you get up earlier than maybe you would have liked on Saturday to get to formation. But Father Fox was always really good about trying to make it interesting and engaging. And one of the ways he did that, one of the Formation Saturdays — and I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly what the topic was — but you used lots of pictures and references to eighties wrestlers.

Fr. David:

And I just remember a slide on the board with Hulk Hogan on it, and that was our Formation Saturday. And it kept our attention very well, you know, and it taught in a way that was, you know, humorous and got your points across. But I will never forget that, Father Fox.

Fr. Fox:

Fr. Craig:

Just to quiz you a little bit, how many eighties wrestlers can you name right now? 'Cause it was funny. I was just watching a documentary on Randy Macho Man Savage and all these different wrestlers came up. Like I forgot him, I forgot about him. And they all had their own kind of little schnick of what they did. Can you name some of them right now off the top of your head?

Fr. Fox:

Gosh, I mean, I wasn't ready for this, but Hulk Hogan, Junkyard Dog, King Harley Race, Nikolai Volkoff, the Iron Sheik, British Bulldogs, they count as two. Hillbilly Jim, Jimmy Superfly Snucka, Tito Santana. The Million Dollar Man Ted DiBiase, let's see... King Kong Bundy, Andre the Giant of course, I'm sure I said Hulk Hogan at the beginning, he was my favorite. Junk — I did say Junkyard Dog. I'm going to start repeating myself.

Fr. Craig:

Hacksaw Jim Duggan?

Fr. Fox:

Hacksaw Jim Duggan, the Undertaker, Rick.

Fr. Craig:

Who's the guy that made the turnbuckle?

Fr. Fox:

George the animal Steele very important wrestler. He was actually from Michigan, so.

Fr. Craig:

Was he really?

Fr. Fox:

Yeah I think he was from Madison Heights. He also had a green tongue. I always tried to eat candy that would give me a green tongue, like George the animal Steele. And of course he was in love with there was a Beauty and the Beast storyline, where he was in love with the lovely Elizabeth, who was the manager of Macho Man Randy Savage. There was also Bobby the Brain Heenan and Mr. Fuji, now I'm getting into managers. And the Mouth of the South Jimmy Hart.

Fr. Craig:

Jimmy Hart. That's amazing. I don't remember half of those and even in the documentary they didn't mention half of those. So.

Fr. David:

23.

Fr. Fox:

Oh, Rowdy Rowdy Roddy Piper.

Speaker 2:

Oh, Rowdy Rowdy. Very important. So 24?

Fr. Fox:

Yeah, these are the great figures.

Fr. Craig:

Do you remember when Andre the Giant turned on Hulk Hogan and body slammed him? That was like a major shocker for everybody. Or was it the opposite way around?

Fr. Fox:

Fr. David:

Wow.

Fr. Fox:

Which outdid WrestleMania 3. So we are swimming at the deep end of the pool right now.

Fr. Craig:

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, you know, we're almost on an hour here, though. So you know, anything that you want to just mention to men that are discerning, like, you know, what should they not be doing? Any good advice that you would like to give? Anything that you would like to share with them?

Speaker 2:

Don't be afraid to take the next step, whatever that next step is for you. Don't sit on the fence forever, you know. Take the next step forward, move with Christ, get closer to him. Ask him what he wants you to do. You know, the two questions that helped me the most were to think it's not so much a choice between A and B, between this vocation and that vocation, but which is a deeper choice of Jesus. You know, which option for me represents a deeper choice of Jesus Christ? And the other one is, when I'm closest to God, to what option do I feel drawn? To what vocation do I feel drawn? And those were the two kind of questions that really set me on my course for the priesthood. And so that's what I'd encourage in men is pray a lot, ask those questions, and take the next step.

Fr. Craig:

Yeah, that's awesome. Father Charlie, it's been wonderful talking with you. This has been a great conversation and you brought up so many other things that I personally would have never thought of bringing up and your wealth of knowledge, not only about the priesthood and about faith, but also about eighties wrestlers is amazing.

Fr. Fox:

It all fits together. It's really great to be with you. Yeah.

Fr. Craig:

Father David, did you have any last questions for Father Fox?

Fr. David:

I don't think so. Just it's good to talk to you again, Father, and thanks for being with us on this podcast.

Fr. Fox:

Great to see you, too.

Fr. Craig:

Father Fox, do you want to you want to lead us in a prayer?

Fr. Fox:

Sure. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, we ask you to send your Holy Spirit into our hearts and the hearts of all of our listeners that we might know your will and have the faith, hope, love, and courage to do your will in all things. Form our hearts after the Sacred Heart of your beloved Son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and help us always to stay close to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. We ask this all in the name of Jesus Christ, Our Lord. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Fr. Craig:

Amen. Thank you so much. It's been such a blessing.

Fr. Fox:

Thank you. Great to be with you. God bless you.

Fr. David:

God bless you, too, Father.

Fr. Craig:

You've been listening to Men of the Hearts, a monthly podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit Office of Priestly Vocations. Tune in every month to wherever you get your podcasts and learn more detroitpriestlyvocations.com.