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London & Boston Marathon debrief episode with Andy Raynor, aka FOD Runner
Episode 193rd May 2024 • Cook Eat Run • Charlie Watson
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From carb-loading to ketones, this episode brings you a sub-3 Marathoner's Guide to fuelling success.

Fuel your passion for running with the latest episode of Cook Eat Run - Charlie Watson (now 16-time marathoner!) dives deep into the world of running nutrition with Andy, aka ‘The FOD runner’. Andy is a YouTuber, running coach, and sXMiles ambassador, and in this episode shares the secrets behind his sub-3 hour marathon success. 

Charlie also shares her own Boston Marathon experience, revealing how a hot day led to on-the-fly adjustments to her hydration and sodium intake. Charlie shares her carb-loading techniques and how she managed to nail her nutrition despite the challenging conditions. Andy shares his approach to carb loading, and his experimentation with ketone supplements as a potential third energy source (don't miss Charlie’s view as a dietician as she unpacks the use of ketones and whether they're worth the investment at the end of the episode!)

This episode is packed with practical advice for runners of all levels, with super valuable insights on fueling, hydration, and the mental clarity that comes with proper nutrition.


Connect with Charlie online @therunnerbeans / www.therunnerbeans.com 

Grab a copy of Charlie’s book ‘Cook Eat Run’ 


The Cook Eat Run Podcast is sponsored by XMiles - the One Stop Nutrition Shop - use discount code CER-POD10 for 10% off site wide at Xmiles.co.uk


This podcast is produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative


Transcripts

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>> Charlie: Hello and welcome to the Cook Eat Run podcast sponsored by

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xmls. This is the podcast for all things

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running, nutrition, training, tips and advice, running

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gear. We get into it all. I'm Charlie

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Watson. I'm an NHS dietitian, author of

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cookbook cook, Eat Run. I blog and Instagram

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over at Therunner Beans and I'm now a 16 time

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marathoner. Had to update that because I just ran my number

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16. So if you want to improve your

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marathon PB, simply enjoy running more

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or just want to improve your fueling for your

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marathon, we have got you covered.

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So lace up your trainers, grab a cup of tea, get

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comfy and let's get going with today's episode.

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Today I am talking to Andy, aka

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Fodrunner, which I learned in today's episode

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stands for Forest of Dean Runner. I think I knew that, but

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nice to just have it confirmed from the man himself.

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He is a youtuber, a running coach and a sub three hour

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marathoner. he is a fast guy and he's so nice. He's

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exactly the same on his YouTube as he was

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via this Zoom recording. So that's

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always really nice to know that people are how they appear on

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screen. We're going to go into a little debrief of, how

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his London marathon went, how he fueled,

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what went well that day, and his general running nutrition.

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As I said, this podcast is spot sponsored by xmars. They have a

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lovely discount to give to all of you listeners if you

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use the code cookeatrun ten, that will save

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you 10% off site wide.

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First, I am going to talk to you a little bit about my Boston

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marathon that I ran two and a bit weeks ago

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now. So if you weren't following along on

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Instagram with all the Boston marathoners sharing, it was a

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hot day. So my fueling

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strategy changed almost as soon as

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I was walking to the start line. When we realised that we were kind of sweating.

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I definitely had that sweaty upper lip as I was walking to the start line.

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I was like, this is going to need more liquid,

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more hydration and more sodium than I have

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prepared for. So my original fueling

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strategy was to have a gel,

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on the way to the start line, take a handheld bottle

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with a mixture of the carb and

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electrolyte mix from precision fuel and hydration and

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carry that with me for the first five or 6 miles and then to

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switch to using the water stations and

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using precision fuel and hydration, the

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30 gramme carbohydrate gels

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every 30 minutes. And I was going to kind of alternate between the

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caffeinated ones and the non caffeinated to make

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sure they hit at peak time. So I was going to take one at 90 minutes,

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at, 2 hours, and at two and a half hours with the goal of a

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sub four hour marathon. What I

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ended up doing was taking those

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gels every 30 minutes and walking through

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every single water station to grab a cup of

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gatorade, a cup of water to drink, and, tip a cup of water

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over my head. I also finished my

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bottle of the carbon electrolyte mix

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within about 40 minutes. The plan was

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to use it for about an hour. And then the other thing

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I changed in the lead up to the race was that I added

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in a whole pack of the salt stick

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electrolyte chews, and I took two of those

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with every gel until I finished the packet.

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So that was a learning for me, that I need more than one packet

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on a hot race. Overall, I didn't cramp.

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I didn't feel other than kind of

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feeling sore after the race and sore for much

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longer than I've ever, like, experienced before.

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I didn't experience any issues with hydration.

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I was about five minutes slower than I wanted to be,

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and, my quads were completely wrecked.

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So I know that I gave everything I had on that day,

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and training went well. I definitely know that I

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trained my stomach well because I tolerated all of the

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carbs, all of the sodium, all of that liquid. So

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other than a quick lubricant, I think mile 17,

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yeah, I feel like it all went well, and it was definitely a good

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springboard for my marathon in

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Berlin in September, which also might be hot. So just need to get

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that sodium right. I think the sodium and the

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hydration, another thing that went really well for

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me was my carb loading. I did a three day carb

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load starting on the Friday morning in

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Boston because the race is on a Monday, and

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I aimed for between 520 and

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550 grammes of carbs a day. I

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absolutely nailed it. I used a lot of liquid

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for my carb load, so I used the scratch

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labs high carbohydrate drink, which has

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100 grammes of carbs in a bottle. So

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I mix that in 500 mls. It's quite intense.

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When it's in 500 millilitres, it gets quite sticky and it's quite hard to pour it

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all in. So I ended up doing two bottles of

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50 because that just helped a bit more with

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hydration and, with the tolerance of being able to kind of mix it all

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in. I also used gummy

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sweets at the end of the day, just to top up. I had a

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lot of crackers, bagels, rice krispies

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squares, pasta.

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Lucasade. No, I didn't actually use Lucas aid. I used Gatorade.

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The american equivalent. Yeah,

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I think overall, it went really well. I think I'd

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probably use more sports nutrition next

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time. So maybe use Morton bars, because they've got 40

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grammes of carbs in use. The scratch

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labs chews, which are really good, instead of sweets. Just again,

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for more carbs, more bang for your buck. But

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overall, I think I nailed the carb load. I'm excited

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to see what I can achieve with a good

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summer of training, lots of practise

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with hydration, sodium fueling,

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another carb load, and an overall, maybe

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better nutrition week on week, which I want to

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go in and talk about more

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in a couple of months when I have made some more tweaks.

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But, overall, yeah, I'm really pleased with how

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the marathon went. I, as I say, I was a

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bit slower than I would have liked to have been, but overall,

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five minutes over goal time was not something that I could be

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upset about. So let's get

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into today's conversation with Andy.

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So, Andy M. Thank you so much for joining me on the

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podcast today.

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>> Andy: Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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>> Charlie: How are you? How are the post marathon

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legs?

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>> Andy: Well, the post marathon legs are actually okay,

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to be honest with you. Surprisingly, I thought that they

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would be, trashed, but, the way that

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London panned out meant that I didn't quite go

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to the well like I have done in the past. So

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I'm fighting the urge to run at the moment, but I'm trying

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to let the body rest. But at the same time,

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yeah, no aches and pains. Feeling very grateful.

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>> Charlie: That's sometimes, like, a good thing, and sometimes you're like, oh,

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could I have, you know, could I have done something different on race

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day to make it hurt more?

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Absolutely. I would say my

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legs after the Boston marathon, what,

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ten days ago now? Yeah, about ten days ago.

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They've never hurt so much, and it's only maybe in the last

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two days that they feel normal again. And I'm like,

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right, okay. I did do everything I could have.

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>> Andy: Done out there, to be honest.

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Boston is a, different ballgame to London.

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Don't get me wrong. 26.2 miles is

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hard on whatever course you run. But everybody I

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speak to at Boston, that's, done. Boston says that the

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legs have hurt the most. And I gather, probably it's

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because of all the downhills. yes, there's uphills as well,

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but we kind of, as runners, we can kind of get through

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uphills, but the downhills, I think, is what catches a lot

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of us out.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. And I think in training we. I certainly

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did some hill repeats and neglected,

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any downhill repeats. So,

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yeah, learnings for next time. But,

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>> Andy: Absolutely.

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>> Charlie: Well, you got a course

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PB on Sunday.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: But it sounds like it wasn't quite the day you were

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hoping for, and it's quite far from your

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current PB. So can you tell us

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what. What went well and what didn't quite go to plan on?

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Yeah, in training and kind of on race day.

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>> Andy: Absolutely. So training was just hampered

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this time with a, virus, to be perfectly honest with

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you. Well, two viruses, I suffered with, I

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did London 2022, which was in October.

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They pushed it to October that year, m to make

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sure it went ahead post COVID. And that was amazing.

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I actually caught COVID two days after London when I got

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home. So I'm assuming the hustle and bustle of. Of

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COVID of London. Sorry. Was, enough

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to tip me over the edge there. I caught it and

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I suffered for a day, and then started

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to feel better. but this year, January

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26, I started to feel unwell.

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Standard stuff. You kind of think, well, I feel a bit unwell. but I keep

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training because we often train through my rule of thumb, which

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is not advocated by doctors. So I just want to make

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that very clear. But if the symptoms for me are like head, neck

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up, then I keep training. Like, if it's a head

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cold sinuse, I'll just keep it easy running, but I'll

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keep training. If it's. If it's neck down, like chest, I don't

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run. And everything was neck up. I just felt a bit

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lethargic, didn't think anything of it. and

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then I just kept going down and down and down. I was

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due to fly out to Barcelona for the half marathon,

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and I, still flew out, but at this point I had a

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temperature. And for the first time in ten years of running, my

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wife had to come and pick me up from a run, which, is

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honestly, it's never happened. so we flew out there and

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I kind of deep down, knew I wasn't gonna run it, but

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I hoped. I tried. I did a shakeout run.

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I got through it, but it didn't feel great. I woke up on the morning

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of Barcelona temperature and, you know, for

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context, my resting heart rate. Well, leading into

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London it was, it's around low fifties. While in

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Barcelona it was, mid to high

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sixties and just walking around in the hundreds. So

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I knew I was a big red flag. Yeah, massive.

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I was battling something and it just lasted for about three

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weeks or two weeks, to be fair. And as I started

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to build back into it, my little one, who's

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four, he brought home another virus from his nursery.

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And I guess with my immune system still

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weak from that first one, I caught it again, went back

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downhill, kind of relapsed for another week, built

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back up. and the reality is that was in the crucial

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part of training. So I actually then didn't do a workout

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until the last day in February, I

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think it was. So I missed a whole month of. I just did easy and

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moderate running.

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>> Charlie: And that was it.

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>> Andy: So that's the key point, as you know, with the spring marathon, that's the

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key point to do your training. So it was

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then mission get to the start line and just see what you could

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do. And actually, I'm very grateful. My heart rate did really come down

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towards the end, of the training bottom, probably to the point where it's the

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lowest it's ever been. But I missed that

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endurance training and, it just, you know, I strung

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together what I could on the day. But I think that's why I feel

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good because my heart rate for the whole run was

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158. Well, normally my heart rate for a marathon

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is as a minimum, it's 165 average. And

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I'm, you know, getting well into the. Didn't even

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touch that this time. So I just.

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Yeah, it was one of those days. Plus, the only other

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thing I could say about it, a good and a bad, I

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suppose London was insane. The

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atmosphere is, was way better than

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2024. but coupled with that,

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it was overcrowded and there was just

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so many runners on the course. And where I

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was around 257 in that

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250 realm, there was just a wall of

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runners from start to finish. The depth of

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athletes out there was absolutely

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incredible. But obviously that made it very difficult to run your own

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race. There was no way you could get any clear,

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clear traffic in front of you. So, yeah, an

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amazing day. London was incredible, but

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definitely, found it more challenging than

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2022.

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>> Charlie: That's interesting to hear. I ran in 2022 and

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thought the crowds were amazing. Then I was in the crowds

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on Sunday and, have heard so many

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runners. Lots of Americans came over and just were like,

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London's even better than New York. This is incredible. So it's

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great to hear that the not only kind of

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participation, but that the crowds,

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hopefully were bigger and better than they've ever been

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before.

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>> Andy: They were unreal, like, to a point where

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I would say there was maybe two or three portions on the course

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that were a bit quiet, but the rest of it, I remember

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20 to 26 miles in

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2022 being a little bit sort of not

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hit and miss, but there were quiet parts and noisy parts. It

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was a wall of noise to the finish, and that's what

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kept me going. It was, yeah, it was

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unbelievable.

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>> Charlie: Oh, good. Well, I'm glad you had a

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different day. No, maybe not the day you were really striving

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for, but hopefully a good day. It was anyway.

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Yeah. And, so what kind of. What went

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well in terms of race day? It sounds like

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you got yourself into pretty decent shape to a

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run sub three, but to have that low heart rate

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for the entirety of the race.

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>> Andy: Yeah. to be honest with you, it was. It was kind of like I did

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a 20 week training block, and I came off the back of a year last

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year where training was uninterrupted, uninjured,

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nothing. So I was very lucky to have that. And

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in reality, I still got weeks. I did a

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20 week block and I got weeks, one to twelve

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completed. So I still had some good training under me. It

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was just when we got to that longer work,

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that's when things. Things went south. So I think that

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I had something in there and I think

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nutrition as well, in terms of I

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ate and fueled well, I've got into a good habit now

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with my nutrition, where with carb

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loading and stuff, I've seen to have fingers

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crossed. I've experimented in the past, but I've got it

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down, to a.

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>> Charlie: Tell us more.

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>> Andy: Yeah, it's from. Okay, so

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I know you know him, but Tom Hollis. Ah,

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amazing, amazing chap. I did one of his

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nutritional webinars, leading up to London, and it kind of

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confirmed what I was doing, but made me a little bit even more

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meticulous about it. And that was just to start

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Thursday night and just to add 50%

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extra carbs to my dinner. So if I had, like,

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pasta and something, whatever protein it was,

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just add an extra scoop of pasta that night, and

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then on Friday and the Saturday,

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100% more. But that's not to

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say I would have, like, a huge bowl of pasta.

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It's just to keep eating normally, but just add in

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extra carbs. So my stomach didn't ever get

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bloated or feel I didn't feel

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lethargic. I didn't need to change my diet.

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It was, it was. That's. And that's worked really well for me.

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And I cut out fibre in the last 48 hours as

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well to ensure, there's no, issues on race day.

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And then on Saturday evening I have a drink

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mix, a carb drink mix. I usually

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alternate between the sis beta fuel and the Morton drink

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mix or one of those two. Sunday morning, Sunday

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morning, same again. So I have my porridge with chocolate

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spread, as the breakfast, and then I have a drink mix

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and that tops up, the carb stores. And that

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has worked well for me for the last three marathons. And to be

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honest with you, even on half marathons,

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I kind of still follow that to a degree.

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And even on other races. Drink mixes are my go

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to on the evening before and the morning of. And

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then. Yeah, a gel ten minutes

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before. that has become, a

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ritual now.

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>> Charlie: And, then which ones do you use? Do

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you use the same ones throughout the race or do you have a different one that you

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have pre and then during?

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>> Andy: No, I use the same ones and I stick with

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Morton. But I.

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Morton goes down. I don't like the

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texture but it sits well in my stomach

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where there are others that taste great but doesn't sit well in my stomach.

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So I have to kind of balance that, and yeah, just fueling from the

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start every 25, 30 minutes with a gel.

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I came unstuck towards the end. I couldn't quite take on the

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fifth gel. Didn't quite work out, but I got four out

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there on the course, plus water, and some

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ketone IQ that I'm trying at the moment. So

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that all went really well. So in terms of nutrition, I

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think that that set me up in good stead because

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naturally if you start to burn through those glycogen

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stores pretty quickly, your heart rate will, you'll get

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sort of cardiac drift, your heart rate will increase quickly

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and fast and yeah, you could be hitting your threshold

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quicker, than you would normally. So I attribute

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that to being, able to keep a good heart rate.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I think that. I don't know whether you feel

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the same way, but I really feel like

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so many runners either don't give

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nutrition the kind of the kudos that it

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needs for performance. We look at our training,

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we look at our trainers, we look at race day

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conditions and we don't look at what actually the

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fuel we've given our body to be able to perform,

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and then so many people just kind of don't ignore it as

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part of training. And you've said that you use a carb load

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for your, or a bit of a carb load with the carb

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drinks for half marathons. and that

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works really well for you. But we have to train our stomachs to be

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able to take in that much.

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>> Andy: We do.

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>> Charlie: Do you take the Mortons on, like,

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long training runs, or do you save that for race day and use

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something else?

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>> Andy: Yeah, that's a really good question. I do. But obviously,

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fueling can be an expensive game, so I've also

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bought. I've bought

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maltodextrin on its own, which is the main

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component for a lot of gels anyway. And,

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what I will sometimes do is make my own soft flask

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of maltodextrin, and I'll often have that before my

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run. and I have been known to take it in a soft

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flask out on the run. If I'm not practising with gels, I

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do. If I can prefer to train with

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gels, just, as you said, training

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the stomach, getting it used to it. I mean, my next hurdle, as

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with every athlete, there's not one person out there that

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isn't in this position. But my next step is

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to learn to take on a fifth gel, a 6th

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gel. So training the gut to be able

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to handle more carbs per hour.

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and that's just a long process that we have to go through. But everyone

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is at different stages in that game. Some people have no issues

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with it, and some people struggle to just take on one

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gel or any fuel at all. So it

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is a long process. I just find because I've

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now used Morton successfully for three

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marathons, I am reluctant

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to change, if you know what I mean.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. Just going to do a little plug

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here. So, you said that, you know, fueling can be

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expensive. The kind folk at, xmiles have given

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us a 10% discount with

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the podcast code cookeatrun

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ten. So you can save 10% on your Morton

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gels, your carb drinks. I personally really like

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the scratch high carb drink. Have you ever

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tried that one?

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>> Andy: I haven't, but I have tried scratch stuff before. A

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while ago, it worked with my stomach. It was one of the ones that was

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okay.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, I was really impressed. I tried it in Boston for the

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first time. Don't try anything new on race weekend.

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But, having tried other products before, I thought it would be

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fine. And it was 100 grammes of carbs.

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Per 500 mil? Yeah, absolutely.

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incredible. And that was a lot of my carb

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load. Was those at least one of those a day.

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And it really just takes the pressure off, kind of eating

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quite so much.

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>> Andy: Yeah. Because you can often feel bloated if you eat a

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lot to try and get that carb count up. So that's the beauty

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of those carb drinks. It allows you to

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feel not quite as bloated, but get the carbs

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in.

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>> Charlie: So I'm interested. So Morton

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doesn't have electrolytes in. Did you take

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any electrolytes or sodium

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in your car blade or on course?

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>> Andy: No, no. I. I found

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that I was okay. Well, I say I was okay.

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The last 2 miles were tough, and I kind of. I hit a bit

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of a wall in at, 20, just past

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24. So I got nearly to the end. And I

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am quite a salty sweater. So I do often have to take,

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electrolytes. But I have found in the past of my

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last two marathons that I've been

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okay with Morton and the fluid on the

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course. Just making sure I keep hydrated, because in the past, I've

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often suffered with stomach cramps just when trying to

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drink. And so, after London

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2022, that's when it was at my worst.

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I should have gone into the medical tent. I didn't, and

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I was in a bad way. And, you know, it's one of those things where

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I'm not. Well, me and my wife had a chat, and it was like,

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you're not doing another one until you can take on fluid.

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Because dehydration in a marathon is just

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horrific, you know? So the.

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The first port of call was to get water down. And

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now I have run two successful marathons, including this

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one where I'm able to drink and take on Morton.

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yeah, the next. The next step will be maybe

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adding in some electrolytes. I have in the past, trained

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with salt sticks. Salt tabs.

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>> Charlie: Yeah.

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>> Andy: Yeah, they're amazing. Yep. Salt stick.

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>> Charlie: Use their pills or the chews.

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>> Andy: They chews. And I've had

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those, in long runs and practise with those. They work

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well. but because the temperature wasn't crazy

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hot during London this year, I just didn't.

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And I just went with the fluid on the course. And, the Morton

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gels.

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>> Charlie: Did you take any of the leukazade on course, or was it just

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pure water? Yeah.

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>> Andy: No, I didn't want to. I'm not very. I have had leukocyte

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before. When I'm running, it doesn't agree with my

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stomach and I didn't want to risk it.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. I mean, fair enough.

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Again, I haven't trained with it, but in Boston,

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I. Because it was really hot. I had planned

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to have a full pack of the salt stick

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chews.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: And, then got to the start line and was already

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sweating, walking to the start line and I was like, okay, I

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need more than this. So took the Gatorade at

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every station and

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was lucky that it was. I was fine, I think, because I

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slowed right down during the water. So I wasn't trying

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to chuck back a cup of

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Gatorade at, pace.

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>> Andy: Okay.

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>> Charlie: Which helped bring the heart rate down just as I was drinking it. And I think that

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helps kind of, overall, amazing.

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>> Andy: So, my question to you is, like, Boston, everyone I've

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spoken to about Boston, they said it was quite

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warm, unprecedented temperatures at that time of

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year. Over there, in the seventies. Would you.

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>> Charlie: I was hearing somebody told me,

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the end, that it was real. Feel 28 in the

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sun.

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>> Andy: Wow.

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>> Charlie: Cause there's no shade on the course, but it was actually around

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21, 22. Measuring kind of

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on your phone.

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>> Andy: Yeah. But direct sunlight is

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a nightmare, so, I mean, fair play

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to you. And you got on well with the salt sticks out there.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. So I had only tried them once in

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training and they were kind of fine. I tried the

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watermelon flavour and then, you

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know, there's all these pop ups and m. It wasn't at the

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expo, but I just tasted one of the,

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I think it was like the sour apple and really liked the flavour. So I was like, I'm

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just gonna take these with me.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: If I feel like I need them, I'll have them. And by

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math three, I was like, I'm gonna try these. And, yeah,

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ate the whole pack and was totally fine. Amazing with those. And

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then I took those alongside precision

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fuel and hydration

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gels, which I think tastes really good. I don't know if you've ever tried

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this.

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>> Andy: I have. And you know what, precision fuel and

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hydration, I rate highly. So I took

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their, I had their electrolyte tabs. You know,

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you can get them in the tubes. So I had those one a day,

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leading up to the race, because as a salty

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sweater, I wanted to make sure I was topped up. I

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have had the gel. They taste amazing. Again, they

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didn't quite settle in my stomach, so I didn't want to risk it.

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But their electrolyte

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products, I've used loads over the last

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couple of years. The tabs usually and the powder.

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and I highly rate them because they cater for

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a multitude of people. You can get the low content

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and the high content of sodium, and I usually

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get, all the electrolytes, I should say. And I usually go for the high content.

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so if you are a salty and a heavy sweater, they've got you

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covered. If you're a light sweater, they've got you covered. So,

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yeah, I do rate their stuff a lot.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, I use their, they've got a carbon

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electrolyte drink mix which I used the

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night before. And then I actually also had

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it on the way to the start line, and I had a

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handheld for the first 5 miles that I just sipped

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on to make sure I kind of front loaded

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my carbs and got some extra salt in.

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>> Andy: Yeah.

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>> Charlie: Amazing. And then I used, yeah, I used the

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1500 milligrammes sodium tabs that

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they've got in the summer, and then in the winter, I tend to use the,

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like, lower.

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>> Andy: Yes, I think it's

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amazing.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. I think what's been hard, especially in Boston,

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for a lot of people, was that we've trained all winter. I think

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if that's, we had those temperatures in, you know, an

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autumn race, we would be a lot more acclimatised. But

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this has been one of the wettest, most miserable

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winters I can remember. So my runs,

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I've been absolutely bundled up, battling the rain and

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floods and, and then to have this bluebird

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day where I was like, this is lovely to spectate. This is

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not what I want to run my goal race in, but,

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>> Andy: It'S always the risk of a spring marathon, isn't it? You kind

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of, you love to see people have dates as

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close to the beginning of April as possible.

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Not towards the end of April, because the risk then

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becomes higher that it will be hotter. But obviously, I know

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with Boston, and I've heard and I've seen over the years, weather

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can be so variable over there, you know, you

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see torrential rain, scorching heat, headwind,

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tailwind. You never know, do you? So,

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yeah, it's part of the fun, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

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But, I totally agree. Getting through the summer, doing that in the

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autumn is way easier. We are more

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acclimatised coming out of this wet and windy

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winter we've had. yeah, we're not geared up for the heat

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yet.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. So I have a couple more questions about

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your mortons.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: Not to get too personal, but where do you

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carry them? I mean, I have my pockets

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absolutely stuffed to the gills with them. I have to take

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about eight gels in the kind of time I'm running.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: So where are you as a pretty fast runner

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carrying your gels?

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>> Andy: Yeah, in the pockets of my shorts, actually.

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So I've got these shorts that have pockets on

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the legs on the outside. and I stuff

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them in there and I had six gels in the

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one side and I had my ketone IQ in the

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other side in a soft flask and I had my starting gel

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in there as well. So I knew that when I was at the start and I looked down, I

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was like, oh yeah, that's the gel I need to have ten minutes before. But, the

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rest were in the side pocket and they're great. they're

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some say sky shorts and I've just used them for the last couple

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of marathons now and I'm a bit

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of an awkward size. So with like flip belts and stuff, as much

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as they are incredible. Like I've got two.

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One is slightly too big and bounces around, the other's slightly

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too tight. so as you know, like if you like

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run with something too tight, you get stomach issues. It's not

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fun. So.

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>> Charlie: Especially after a car blade.

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>> Andy: Yes, absolutely. So pockets for me on the side of the

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shorts and that's all I need. It's amazing.

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>> Charlie: Okay, great. So tell us more about this ketones

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IQ. You said you were kind of testing it out. Have you been using it

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in training?

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>> Andy: Yeah, they're really interesting ones. So it's kind of, I'm

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seeing it a lot over social media. Ketone. so from what

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I gather, it's effectively a third fuel source

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that we can use in terms of, with these

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joule. I'm going to get the wording wrong, but with these gels

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now that have, fructose and glucose, I think

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if that's the right way. Either way, it's two ways of getting.

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>> Charlie: Energy into two different types of carbs. That's it.

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>> Andy: so, and obviously that's the way that we can get on more

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carbs per hour. And then with m the ketone IQ,

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although it is of caffeine free and

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calorie free, effectively it's fuel for your brain,

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it switches you on and, it's

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unbelievable. I would be out there and

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you would have a little bit of it and then the mental

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clarity I often find that I get, it just

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completely shakes you out of any

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grogginess or tiredness and it really

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mentally focuses you. And they sent me some,

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the company sent me some to test, six weeks before

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London, seven weeks actually. So I got to test

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it on the last few long runs that

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I could manage to do and I just found

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it to be amazing. And so my plan was to have it

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at 45 minutes and 1 hour 30 and then two

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hour 15 or whatever in the

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marathon. I got it down on the 45 and

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130. and again just

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running, I was just like switched on. And around the 130 mark

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is actually where I attempted to negative split the

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race and it really just gave me the focus that I needed

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to try it. But sadly by the time I got to 2

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hours 15, I was feeling a bit nauseous and it just

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didn't, didn't work or go down, sadly. But yeah,

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I'm keen to use it more

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in the summer. Now you have a shot of it before a

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workout or before a run and it just,

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yeah, it gets, it's light.

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>> Charlie: You feel like there is that switch.

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>> Andy: Yeah, massively. It's like having caffeine but not having caffeine,

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if that makes sense. so I'm really keen to do

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more testing. So I gave them my feedback. I've

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provided everything that I can. I've said when it works really well, when I don't feel,

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I get ah, the effect from it that I do another times.

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And now I'm going into some summer, speed work.

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So yeah, I'm keen to test it

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more.

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>> Charlie: How does your fueling in general change when you're

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doing kind of speed workouts

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versus the kind of endurance runs that you

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obviously do a lot more in terms of marathon training?

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>> Andy: Yeah, with speed. So I do a lot of

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my runs early morning because I've got three kids so

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I get the school run done in the morning so

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I have to get up quite early. So usually if it's

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an early morning, easy or steady run, I won't fuel,

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I'll just get up and go. If it's a session I'll often

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just, if I'm honest with you, if I've got time I might

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have a slice of bread with chocolate spread on it, but

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often I don't have time so I'll just take a gel with me or

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some maltodextrin. so now in the summer

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I'm going to be, I usually do a 15 minutes warm up,

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then my session 15 minutes cool down. So

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I have spoken to Michael, the owner

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of Ketone IQ, had a chat with him about it, asked him when he

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uses it. and I'm now going to be having that

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before a session, I'll do my warm up.

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>> Charlie: Just that.

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>> Andy: Just that. So I will have a

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gel, or my m maltodextrin before the run in

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general, to get something in, but then before the session, we'll

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just have a shot of that. So that'll be in addition

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to what I have been doing. But I don't tend to have

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too much, to be honest with you, because I do have to get it done

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early. And it's bad enough waking up at 530, let

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alone 430, to let some food go down.

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>> Charlie: I know the feeling.

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>> Andy: Yeah. So it's, you know, that's what I'm going to be

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experimenting with.

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>> Charlie: M. Well, we'll have to get you back on the podcast to hear

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more about it at the end of the summer, see how it's all gone and what your

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experience is.

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>> Andy: That'd be great.

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>> Charlie: Of using it during marathon versus kind of

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the shorter, faster stuff.

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>> Andy: Yeah. The one thing I did do, I did it. I ran a

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five k a week before the marathon,

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just to sharpen up and off the

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back of all the illness and stuff, I managed to run an equal

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pb. And the one thing I did there, which I have never

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done before, ever, is I actually had a gel before

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my five k as well, which I used to

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suffer really badly with stomach cramps. What if I had any

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food in me for any race? that seems to have been

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sorted by posture work. So core work,

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upper back work to make sure that my chest is

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up and my stomach is okay, because when I would, like, be tired

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and hunch over, it would cramp up the diaphragm. And that's

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where it happened. So that was really interesting. And I

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felt the best I'd ever felt on a five k because I

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got that fuel in. So I think fueling is

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so neglected,

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by so many runners and so underappreciated as to

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what it can do. And I can guarantee you

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pro runners won't go into a race under fuelled,

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that's for sure, even if it's a five k. So, I mean,

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we're all individual, but we've got to find out what works for us. I'm

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hoping this ketone IQ is going to be a good

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addition.

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>> Charlie: yeah, I can't wait to hear more. I mean, I'm definitely

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a major advocate for fueling for

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everyone and training yourself to be

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able to take fuel and, you know,

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the earlier or the more practise you can

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get in terms of getting your fuel in

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before your short, easy runs

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the less time it usually takes for most people. I know

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that, as you say, digestion is such an

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individual thing. I use rice

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Krispies squares that my body seems to tolerate

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really well. How good, though? Aren't they easy carbs. And

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I can pretty much have that 15 minutes before I go for a

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run and I'm fine. So they are very

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helpful, though. My son has decided he likes them and

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notices the blue shiny wrappers.

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And so sometimes now I have to share the, roast Krispie or

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he's eating one at 05:45 a.m.. M. And I'm like, is

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this good parenting? But anyway, never

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mind. Kind of a breakfast cereal. But,

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so what is next for you? You said you're going to be working on some speed

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over the summer.

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>> Andy: Yeah, I want to try and I'm going to

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probably. I'd like to. Okay. I'd like to run

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Abingdon marathon m in October. It's the marathon that I

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broke 3 hours out for the first time a few years back. It's one

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I want to revisit after London being absolutely

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incredible, I want to go back to something a bit lower

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key, that I can sleep in my own bed, drive down there,

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just make things a bit easier. so my focus

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for the next 16 weeks or so

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is going to be to work on that five and ten k speed. Because

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naturally, if we want to get faster in the marathon, it is

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important to work on that top end speed. So that's the goal. I've got a

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five k pb that I want to chip away at,

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and is, not relative to my ten k

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time whatsoever. As runners, we often find we have

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a distance that we're really good at and the distance that we're not so good at and the

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five k I'm not so good at, so I'm terrible.

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>> Charlie: My five k pace is basically the same as my half marathon.

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>> Andy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah. I'm not far off,

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so I think that's the goal. Just

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work on that over the summer. I don't like to do longer races

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over the summer. It's too hot, you know, and I just

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always think to myself, whatever you do in the summer, that's nice

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and warm. when you get to the autumn and winter, when

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it cools down, you're going to reap the rewards

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of all the hard work you've done. So it's

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just about being as consistent as I can over the summer so that I

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can go into the autumn feeling good.

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>> Charlie: And do you have any tips for people who like me who are

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also trying to get their five k to be

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a little bit faster than half marathon pace.

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>> Andy: Okay, well I'm going to be jump. okay yeah. I'm in the same

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boat obviously. So I'm having to push myself out of my

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comfort zone. So effectively

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my five k time is

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I split my five k

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time plus 9 seconds. Okay. So my five

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k time is 1621. My ten

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k time is 330. Zero. So I

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basically ran 216 thirties back to back.

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How I've only managed to run 9 seconds

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faster I have no idea. So the goal is really

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just to push the top end more, which I

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really don't like doing. I'm not good at that discomfort

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so much it does. I'm good at

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long slow suffering on marathon

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training. That's my favourite. I'm not good

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on that. Instant pain. Oh my word. I've got to hold

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this for another minute. So getting

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yourself out of your comfort zone, dropping into more

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five ks. What I have done in the past is

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just go for one five k a year. I'm

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trying to do three or four throughout the year so that I

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can start to learn to pace them better. I think

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as runners, if it's a distance we're not good at or we don't

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like often pacing can come into it

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and if we start to learn to pace it better

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we suddenly go oh actually that wasn't so bad.

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Maybe I could go a little bit faster next time.

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So that's a goal as well. And I think just,

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yeah, we've got to embrace those faster workouts

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and see if we can suffer a little bit better.

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That's I think the best advice I can give.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. And fuel for them it sounds like is going to be

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your strategy this summer as well.

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>> Andy: I think taking the gel before the marathon is something I've

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done for a while. But now having had a Morton calf gel

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before my last five k, that was a game changer. So I

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now know that I can do that again and I

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certainly will. And yeah, just being more

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mentally sharp now there's fuel on board. Usually what I

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do is have my last food about

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three to three and a half hours before a five k.

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So I actually feel when I get to the race my

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stomach feels good but I feel quite empty.

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and not the most energised. So now I'm hoping

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that I can do the three, three and a half hours. But then within

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the last half an hour, 20 minutes, ten

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minutes, have a gel and suddenly get that buzz from

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the caffeine and the carbs and. Yeah.

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Feel better.

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>> Charlie: Did you do caffeinated Morton's

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at all during marathon? You just use the.

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>> Andy: Just the normal ketones? Yeah, just.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely.

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>> Andy: The ketones acted as the, as the caffeine

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sort of effect for me. I

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went for the caff gel, the caffeinated gel

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at, ah, the fifth one. and I was kind of

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already feeling sick. So it's not fair to blame it on that

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gel. But, I then was sick, all over

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the road, which was very unpleasant for everyone around me and

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I apologise to everyone that was there and the runners

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around me, but, I was already feeling sick. So I kind

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of, I was like, well, if I don't try,

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I'm going to hit the wall. If I do try and throw up, I'm going to hit

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the wall. So I really. I've got nothing to lose. So I tried

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and it didn't stay down. But, I do need to work on trying

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to have. Because at the end of the day, caffeine is,

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great for runners, you.

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>> Charlie: Know, as a great performance booster.

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>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. And so it's just one of those things I

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need to start practising with. Maybe alternating a normal and a

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calf, on each, each training run.

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>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I took my caffeinated

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gels to try and get the maximum boost.

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So an hour before, I wanted the

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peak caffeine in my, you know,

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bloodstream during Boston.

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>> Andy: Yeah.

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>> Charlie: And that, I feel like, worked quite well. But I do find

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they're a bit more bitter, both the Morton and their

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precision fuel and hydration and other ones than the

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normal. So they, I often find they're a bit harder to

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tolerate in general. so I think

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for me, sort of almost again, somewhat front loading

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those. Yeah, was easier. So then it's a bit more

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pleasant, the gels that you're taking later on in the race.

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>> Andy: Absolutely, yeah. Something, something for me to try for sure. But no,

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you're right, you're right. Getting. I always find that

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not, you know, front loading the carbs

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is good whilst you're not feeling sick, whilst you're not too tired, whilst the

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heart rate's low in your body. Yeah, your body can,

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can digest better, then

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getting as much on as you can is great. Because then you know

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that if towards the end of the marathon, if you are feeling a bit sick but you know,

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you've got on a substantial amount of calories, then

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at least you know that you're going to get to the end.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. It's a bit of a reassurance, isn't it?

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>> Andy: Absolutely.

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>> Charlie: Okay, my last question for you. What did you

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have post race and how did you end up

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on the floor of the train? Did no one give you,

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if anyone saw Andy's instagram, he was

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like, squatting on the floor of the train on the way home.

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>> Andy: Yeah. I had. What did I have? so my

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cousin met me at the end of the

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race, and my wife followed closely

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behind her because she was out spectating. So as you walk

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through the marble arches at the end of, the mall

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at London, you end up in

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Leicester Square. Pick a trafalgar square.

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>> Charlie: Trafalgar Square, yeah.

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>> Andy: And then straight ahead of you is a pret. And

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I don't usually go to pret, but I went in there

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and my cousin bought me an egg mayo sandwich, which was so

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random, but I just wanted something that was

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not sweet. after all the gels, I don't want that.

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So I had an egg mayo sandwich and, that

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stayed down and I had a can of coke and that was amazing. And

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after that, I felt great. And I just, on the way

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home, snacked on whatever I had left in my bag,

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which was nothing. good. Packets of

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crisps, maybe some fruit in there. But at that moment

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in time, I really didn't care. And the train, well, that was a

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nightmare because GWR, great

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resting. railway cut the carriages

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down on the train from nine until five, so we

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actually had booked seats.

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So my wife said, go on, quick, quick, get on there and go and get

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our seats quick.

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>> Charlie: You just ran a marathon hobble onto the train.

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>> Andy: That's it. And I got on there and I walked down to my seats and they had

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the little green light saying, available. And I was like

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looking at my ticket going. And then someone

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literally came on the tannoy and said, we

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are not, there are no reserve seats on this train. We've,

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had to basically cancel them. We've got shorter carriages.

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So just. Yeah, all the seats were taken

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and, no one wanted to give a seat up.

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No. So we were out in the hall.

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>> Charlie: Sat on the floor.

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>> Andy: There were a few of us. There were a few of us. We were suffering

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together.

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>> Charlie: Great british hospitality or in escape.

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>> Andy: Absolutely.

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>> Charlie: Well, I'm sorry that that was the end to your race, but it sounds

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like maybe for next time, taking something in your drop

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bag. I don't know whether you took a drop back, but to get

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that protein and carbs post race might be a

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good idea.

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>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. because I didn't have any of that. I

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had my whole weekend in my drop bag. my cousin said, what should we get?

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And I was like, well, I'm a vegetarian, so.

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And prep didn't have the biggest selection of

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vegetarian, stuff. And I was like, what? Egg. That will do

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me.

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>> Charlie: And protein. Yeah, protein, yeah.

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>> Andy: Egg mayo sandwiches. That will do this. So that was the first thing. And then

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the can of coke. So that was as best as I could

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do. I tell you what I have been a bit of a sucker for

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is, And I know this is very random, but I do quite

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like, huel. Have you ever tried Huel?

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>> Charlie: I haven't tried it, but I'm sure everybody listening has heard of

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it.

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>> Andy: They do a chocolate protein shake, and it

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is unbelievably good. So I was hunting for

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one of those. but I wasn't as prepared

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this time. So, yeah, I'll have to make sure I am next

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time.

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>> Charlie: Yeah. I feel like my post race nutrition was

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horrible after Boston, and I really think

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both the kind of nutrition aspect and the hydration post

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race was terrible for me, and I do think that

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probably contributed to me feeling the

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effects of the race much longer. I flew home that night, which was

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also not my best idea. Went to work on

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Tuesday.

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>> Andy: Oh, wow.

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>> Charlie: And, yeah. So I think that I

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just didn't look after myself as much as I should have done, and

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therefore have been feeling the effects and the quads

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for, longer than I would like to.

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>> Andy: It's difficult, though. I mean, we've got to get back to work and

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stuff, and it's difficult sometimes to take time off, so. I know what

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you mean. Sometimes you've got to just get on those trains and planes

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and. And get back. But after a marathon,

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you know, I think both of us can say it's the last thing we want

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to do is be sat down and cramped up.

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Yeah.

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>> Charlie: Well, Andy, thanks so much. where can people find

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you and find your abingdon training and see how you get on with

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those ketones?

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>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm basically

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fodrunner, which stands for Forest of Dean, fod

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runner. on YouTube, mainly.

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Instagram and TikTok are the three that I use

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the most.

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>> Charlie: Oh, I have to dig you out on TikTok. I don't really use TikTok very much,

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but I feel like I maybe should. I feel

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like it's. Maybe this makes me sound so

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old. I had always assumed it was just people dancing.

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>> Andy: Yes.

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>> Charlie: Actually, there's a whole running TikTok that I had no idea

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about until quite recently.

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>> Andy: Absolutely.

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>> Charlie: And the thing is rabbit hole for me.

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>> Andy: Yeah. I produce sort of some YouTube

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short form content and I thought, would, you know what, just

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pop it on TikTok.

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>> Charlie: Yeah.

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>> Andy: And, Yeah, so we're doing that. We're trying anyway,

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well, give you.

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>> Charlie: Well, it was really nice to chat today and hopefully we'll get to meet

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up and go for a, well, I would say a run, but I'll try and

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keep up with you, I'm sure, on a very.

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>> Andy: No, it would be fantastic.

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>> Charlie: That was so great to speak to Andy and kind of

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learn all about how he feels for a sub three hour

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marathon. Now, I just wanted to kind of talk a little

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bit more about ketones.

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Now, ketones are small molecules that our

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body can use for fuel. We use

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two main fuel sources,

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carbohydrates and, fat. Ketones are

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the third energy source for our bodies that we can use

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during running. We make our own

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ketones when we follow a really low carbohydrate

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diet. That's when we go into something called

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ketosis and

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utilise ketones for the energy. But

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this can be a really slow process. It takes

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days to trigger this. And

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since we know that carbohydrates are, our

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body's preferred source of energy,

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it seems a little bit

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counterintuitive to then rely on

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ketones to fuel our body, given that it takes a very low

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carbohydrate diet to attain that.

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Some scientists have suggested that

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adding ketones, like ketone

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supplements in addition to carbohydrates when

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running can give you that third energy

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source. And the theory is that we can use

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both our own natural sources of fat. So our natural

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stores of fat, carbohydrates that we consume in our

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glycogen stores, plus ketones to

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benefit from these three fuel

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sources. So the proposed benefits

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are extra energy, more efficient energy,

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and the idea that maybe we'll be able to

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utilise our carbohydrate stores for longer because we've got

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this third energy source. So while there's

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some scientific rationale that sounds promising that

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ketones could be a good energy source, there isn't

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enough to back this up. And, it's really

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expensive. Andy was telling me that a box of the

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ketone IQ that he was using is 80 pounds.

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Now, we've already touched on the fact that fueling for your

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race can be expensive, especially in marathon training, when

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you've got weeks on, weeks of long runs. And, is

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the performance benefits that you may or may not see worth

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a 80 pounds for 2024 bottles,

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I'm not sure. He also said, and he said

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he's happy, he's very open, happy for me to talk about this,

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that where he's found the benefits is

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on longer runs in marathon

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training when he's also

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taken, or in shorter runs when he's also

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taken, a gel as well. So it's really hard to know

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whether it's actually a combination of the

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ketones with the carbs, or whether it's the carbs that he's added in

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that are making the changes to his five k, his

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performance benefits there, or whether it is the ketones in

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that state. So I'll be really interested to hear in

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the next few months how Andy's got on and whether he does

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think that the ketones are worth that

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money. In the meantime, I'm

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personally going to be sticking to carbs. There's plenty of scientific

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evidence that they work. I'm going to be having

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carbs before all of my runs, any

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run over 70 minutes. I'm going to be fueling on the run, and I'm going

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to really focus on carbohydrates and

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protein post run to boost that recovery. And, as

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it gets hotter, making sure I'm hydrated. We know a lot

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of the negative impacts on both our

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gut and performance. It comes from dehydration. So as we

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hopefully hit warmer months, that's something to focus

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on. Don't forget to use the

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code cookeatrun. Ten for 10%

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off at, xmiles. That's for all podcast listeners.

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and you can use that across the board on all of our

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nutrition products. And, I say ours like I wear first miles. I

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basically feel like I do now. that you can use the

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10% off on all of their products on the website.

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Let me know what you choose. Listen,

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next time for an episode with Jamie running, talking all

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about the sturker products, and I'm going to be trying a few of them in the next

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couple of weeks.

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