From carb-loading to ketones, this episode brings you a sub-3 Marathoner's Guide to fuelling success.

Fuel your passion for running with the latest episode of Cook Eat Run - Charlie Watson (now 16-time marathoner!) dives deep into the world of running nutrition with Andy, aka ‘The FOD runner’. Andy is a YouTuber, running coach, and sXMiles ambassador, and in this episode shares the secrets behind his sub-3 hour marathon success. 

Charlie also shares her own Boston Marathon experience, revealing how a hot day led to on-the-fly adjustments to her hydration and sodium intake. Charlie shares her carb-loading techniques and how she managed to nail her nutrition despite the challenging conditions. Andy shares his approach to carb loading, and his experimentation with ketone supplements as a potential third energy source (don't miss Charlie’s view as a dietician as she unpacks the use of ketones and whether they're worth the investment at the end of the episode!)

This episode is packed with practical advice for runners of all levels, with super valuable insights on fueling, hydration, and the mental clarity that comes with proper nutrition.

Connect with Charlie online @therunnerbeans / www.therunnerbeans.com 

Grab a copy of Charlie’s book ‘Cook Eat Run’ 

The Cook Eat Run Podcast is sponsored by XMiles - the One Stop Nutrition Shop - use discount code CER-POD10 for 10% off site wide at Xmiles.co.uk

This podcast is produced by Buckers at Decibelle Creative decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative

>> Charlie: Hello and welcome to the Cook Eat Run podcast sponsored by

xmls. This is the podcast for all things

running, nutrition, training, tips and advice, running

gear. We get into it all. I'm Charlie

Watson. I'm an NHS dietitian, author of

cookbook cook, Eat Run. I blog and Instagram

over at Therunner Beans and I'm now a 16 time

marathoner. Had to update that because I just ran my number

16. So if you want to improve your

marathon PB, simply enjoy running more

or just want to improve your fueling for your

marathon, we have got you covered.

So lace up your trainers, grab a cup of tea, get

comfy and let's get going with today's episode.

Today I am talking to Andy, aka

Fodrunner, which I learned in today's episode

stands for Forest of Dean Runner. I think I knew that, but

nice to just have it confirmed from the man himself.

He is a youtuber, a running coach and a sub three hour

marathoner. he is a fast guy and he's so nice. He's

exactly the same on his YouTube as he was

via this Zoom recording. So that's

always really nice to know that people are how they appear on

screen. We're going to go into a little debrief of, how

his London marathon went, how he fueled,

what went well that day, and his general running nutrition.

As I said, this podcast is spot sponsored by xmars. They have a

lovely discount to give to all of you listeners if you

use the code cookeatrun ten, that will save

you 10% off site wide.

First, I am going to talk to you a little bit about my Boston

marathon that I ran two and a bit weeks ago

now. So if you weren't following along on

Instagram with all the Boston marathoners sharing, it was a

hot day. So my fueling

strategy changed almost as soon as

I was walking to the start line. When we realised that we were kind of sweating.

I definitely had that sweaty upper lip as I was walking to the start line.

I was like, this is going to need more liquid,

more hydration and more sodium than I have

prepared for. So my original fueling

strategy was to have a gel,

on the way to the start line, take a handheld bottle

with a mixture of the carb and

electrolyte mix from precision fuel and hydration and

carry that with me for the first five or 6 miles and then to

switch to using the water stations and

using precision fuel and hydration, the

30 gramme carbohydrate gels

every 30 minutes. And I was going to kind of alternate between the

caffeinated ones and the non caffeinated to make

sure they hit at peak time. So I was going to take one at 90 minutes,

at, 2 hours, and at two and a half hours with the goal of a

sub four hour marathon. What I

ended up doing was taking those

gels every 30 minutes and walking through

every single water station to grab a cup of

gatorade, a cup of water to drink, and, tip a cup of water

over my head. I also finished my

bottle of the carbon electrolyte mix

within about 40 minutes. The plan was

to use it for about an hour. And then the other thing

I changed in the lead up to the race was that I added

in a whole pack of the salt stick

electrolyte chews, and I took two of those

with every gel until I finished the packet.

So that was a learning for me, that I need more than one packet

on a hot race. Overall, I didn't cramp.

I didn't feel other than kind of

feeling sore after the race and sore for much

longer than I've ever, like, experienced before.

I didn't experience any issues with hydration.

I was about five minutes slower than I wanted to be,

and, my quads were completely wrecked.

So I know that I gave everything I had on that day,

and training went well. I definitely know that I

trained my stomach well because I tolerated all of the

carbs, all of the sodium, all of that liquid. So

other than a quick lubricant, I think mile 17,

yeah, I feel like it all went well, and it was definitely a good

springboard for my marathon in

Berlin in September, which also might be hot. So just need to get

that sodium right. I think the sodium and the

hydration, another thing that went really well for

me was my carb loading. I did a three day carb

load starting on the Friday morning in

Boston because the race is on a Monday, and

I aimed for between 520 and

550 grammes of carbs a day. I

absolutely nailed it. I used a lot of liquid

for my carb load, so I used the scratch

labs high carbohydrate drink, which has

100 grammes of carbs in a bottle. So

I mix that in 500 mls. It's quite intense.

When it's in 500 millilitres, it gets quite sticky and it's quite hard to pour it

all in. So I ended up doing two bottles of

50 because that just helped a bit more with

hydration and, with the tolerance of being able to kind of mix it all

in. I also used gummy

sweets at the end of the day, just to top up. I had a

lot of crackers, bagels, rice krispies

squares, pasta.

Lucasade. No, I didn't actually use Lucas aid. I used Gatorade.

The american equivalent. Yeah,

I think overall, it went really well. I think I'd

probably use more sports nutrition next

time. So maybe use Morton bars, because they've got 40

grammes of carbs in use. The scratch

labs chews, which are really good, instead of sweets. Just again,

for more carbs, more bang for your buck. But

overall, I think I nailed the carb load. I'm excited

to see what I can achieve with a good

summer of training, lots of practise

with hydration, sodium fueling,

another carb load, and an overall, maybe

better nutrition week on week, which I want to

go in and talk about more

in a couple of months when I have made some more tweaks.

But, overall, yeah, I'm really pleased with how

the marathon went. I, as I say, I was a

bit slower than I would have liked to have been, but overall,

five minutes over goal time was not something that I could be

upset about. So let's get

into today's conversation with Andy.

So, Andy M. Thank you so much for joining me on the

podcast today.

>> Andy: Absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.

>> Charlie: How are you? How are the post marathon

legs?

>> Andy: Well, the post marathon legs are actually okay,

to be honest with you. Surprisingly, I thought that they

would be, trashed, but, the way that

London panned out meant that I didn't quite go

to the well like I have done in the past. So

I'm fighting the urge to run at the moment, but I'm trying

to let the body rest. But at the same time,

yeah, no aches and pains. Feeling very grateful.

>> Charlie: That's sometimes, like, a good thing, and sometimes you're like, oh,

could I have, you know, could I have done something different on race

day to make it hurt more?

Absolutely. I would say my

legs after the Boston marathon, what,

ten days ago now? Yeah, about ten days ago.

They've never hurt so much, and it's only maybe in the last

two days that they feel normal again. And I'm like,

right, okay. I did do everything I could have.

>> Andy: Done out there, to be honest.

Boston is a, different ballgame to London.

Don't get me wrong. 26.2 miles is

hard on whatever course you run. But everybody I

speak to at Boston, that's, done. Boston says that the

legs have hurt the most. And I gather, probably it's

because of all the downhills. yes, there's uphills as well,

but we kind of, as runners, we can kind of get through

uphills, but the downhills, I think, is what catches a lot

of us out.

>> Charlie: Yeah. And I think in training we. I certainly

did some hill repeats and neglected,

any downhill repeats. So,

yeah, learnings for next time. But,

>> Andy: Absolutely.

>> Charlie: Well, you got a course

PB on Sunday.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: But it sounds like it wasn't quite the day you were

hoping for, and it's quite far from your

current PB. So can you tell us

what. What went well and what didn't quite go to plan on?

Yeah, in training and kind of on race day.

>> Andy: Absolutely. So training was just hampered

this time with a, virus, to be perfectly honest with

you. Well, two viruses, I suffered with, I

did London 2022, which was in October.

They pushed it to October that year, m to make

sure it went ahead post COVID. And that was amazing.

I actually caught COVID two days after London when I got

home. So I'm assuming the hustle and bustle of. Of

COVID of London. Sorry. Was, enough

to tip me over the edge there. I caught it and

I suffered for a day, and then started

to feel better. but this year, January

26, I started to feel unwell.

Standard stuff. You kind of think, well, I feel a bit unwell. but I keep

training because we often train through my rule of thumb, which

is not advocated by doctors. So I just want to make

that very clear. But if the symptoms for me are like head, neck

up, then I keep training. Like, if it's a head

cold sinuse, I'll just keep it easy running, but I'll

keep training. If it's. If it's neck down, like chest, I don't

run. And everything was neck up. I just felt a bit

lethargic, didn't think anything of it. and

then I just kept going down and down and down. I was

due to fly out to Barcelona for the half marathon,

and I, still flew out, but at this point I had a

temperature. And for the first time in ten years of running, my

wife had to come and pick me up from a run, which, is

honestly, it's never happened. so we flew out there and

I kind of deep down, knew I wasn't gonna run it, but

I hoped. I tried. I did a shakeout run.

I got through it, but it didn't feel great. I woke up on the morning

of Barcelona temperature and, you know, for

context, my resting heart rate. Well, leading into

London it was, it's around low fifties. While in

Barcelona it was, mid to high

sixties and just walking around in the hundreds. So

I knew I was a big red flag. Yeah, massive.

I was battling something and it just lasted for about three

weeks or two weeks, to be fair. And as I started

to build back into it, my little one, who's

four, he brought home another virus from his nursery.

And I guess with my immune system still

weak from that first one, I caught it again, went back

downhill, kind of relapsed for another week, built

back up. and the reality is that was in the crucial

part of training. So I actually then didn't do a workout

until the last day in February, I

think it was. So I missed a whole month of. I just did easy and

moderate running.

>> Charlie: And that was it.

>> Andy: So that's the key point, as you know, with the spring marathon, that's the

key point to do your training. So it was

then mission get to the start line and just see what you could

do. And actually, I'm very grateful. My heart rate did really come down

towards the end, of the training bottom, probably to the point where it's the

lowest it's ever been. But I missed that

endurance training and, it just, you know, I strung

together what I could on the day. But I think that's why I feel

good because my heart rate for the whole run was

158. Well, normally my heart rate for a marathon

is as a minimum, it's 165 average. And

I'm, you know, getting well into the. Didn't even

touch that this time. So I just.

Yeah, it was one of those days. Plus, the only other

thing I could say about it, a good and a bad, I

suppose London was insane. The

atmosphere is, was way better than

2024. but coupled with that,

it was overcrowded and there was just

so many runners on the course. And where I

was around 257 in that

250 realm, there was just a wall of

runners from start to finish. The depth of

athletes out there was absolutely

incredible. But obviously that made it very difficult to run your own

race. There was no way you could get any clear,

clear traffic in front of you. So, yeah, an

amazing day. London was incredible, but

definitely, found it more challenging than

2022.

>> Charlie: That's interesting to hear. I ran in 2022 and

thought the crowds were amazing. Then I was in the crowds

on Sunday and, have heard so many

runners. Lots of Americans came over and just were like,

London's even better than New York. This is incredible. So it's

great to hear that the not only kind of

participation, but that the crowds,

hopefully were bigger and better than they've ever been

before.

>> Andy: They were unreal, like, to a point where

I would say there was maybe two or three portions on the course

that were a bit quiet, but the rest of it, I remember

20 to 26 miles in

2022 being a little bit sort of not

hit and miss, but there were quiet parts and noisy parts. It

was a wall of noise to the finish, and that's what

kept me going. It was, yeah, it was

unbelievable.

>> Charlie: Oh, good. Well, I'm glad you had a

different day. No, maybe not the day you were really striving

for, but hopefully a good day. It was anyway.

Yeah. And, so what kind of. What went

well in terms of race day? It sounds like

you got yourself into pretty decent shape to a

run sub three, but to have that low heart rate

for the entirety of the race.

>> Andy: Yeah. to be honest with you, it was. It was kind of like I did

a 20 week training block, and I came off the back of a year last

year where training was uninterrupted, uninjured,

nothing. So I was very lucky to have that. And

in reality, I still got weeks. I did a

20 week block and I got weeks, one to twelve

completed. So I still had some good training under me. It

was just when we got to that longer work,

that's when things. Things went south. So I think that

I had something in there and I think

nutrition as well, in terms of I

ate and fueled well, I've got into a good habit now

with my nutrition, where with carb

loading and stuff, I've seen to have fingers

crossed. I've experimented in the past, but I've got it

down, to a.

>> Charlie: Tell us more.

>> Andy: Yeah, it's from. Okay, so

I know you know him, but Tom Hollis. Ah,

amazing, amazing chap. I did one of his

nutritional webinars, leading up to London, and it kind of

confirmed what I was doing, but made me a little bit even more

meticulous about it. And that was just to start

Thursday night and just to add 50%

extra carbs to my dinner. So if I had, like,

pasta and something, whatever protein it was,

just add an extra scoop of pasta that night, and

then on Friday and the Saturday,

100% more. But that's not to

say I would have, like, a huge bowl of pasta.

It's just to keep eating normally, but just add in

extra carbs. So my stomach didn't ever get

bloated or feel I didn't feel

lethargic. I didn't need to change my diet.

It was, it was. That's. And that's worked really well for me.

And I cut out fibre in the last 48 hours as

well to ensure, there's no, issues on race day.

And then on Saturday evening I have a drink

mix, a carb drink mix. I usually

alternate between the sis beta fuel and the Morton drink

mix or one of those two. Sunday morning, Sunday

morning, same again. So I have my porridge with chocolate

spread, as the breakfast, and then I have a drink mix

and that tops up, the carb stores. And that

has worked well for me for the last three marathons. And to be

honest with you, even on half marathons,

I kind of still follow that to a degree.

And even on other races. Drink mixes are my go

to on the evening before and the morning of. And

then. Yeah, a gel ten minutes

before. that has become, a

ritual now.

>> Charlie: And, then which ones do you use? Do

you use the same ones throughout the race or do you have a different one that you

have pre and then during?

>> Andy: No, I use the same ones and I stick with

Morton. But I.

Morton goes down. I don't like the

texture but it sits well in my stomach

where there are others that taste great but doesn't sit well in my stomach.

So I have to kind of balance that, and yeah, just fueling from the

start every 25, 30 minutes with a gel.

I came unstuck towards the end. I couldn't quite take on the

fifth gel. Didn't quite work out, but I got four out

there on the course, plus water, and some

ketone IQ that I'm trying at the moment. So

that all went really well. So in terms of nutrition, I

think that that set me up in good stead because

naturally if you start to burn through those glycogen

stores pretty quickly, your heart rate will, you'll get

sort of cardiac drift, your heart rate will increase quickly

and fast and yeah, you could be hitting your threshold

quicker, than you would normally. So I attribute

that to being, able to keep a good heart rate.

>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I think that. I don't know whether you feel

the same way, but I really feel like

so many runners either don't give

nutrition the kind of the kudos that it

needs for performance. We look at our training,

we look at our trainers, we look at race day

conditions and we don't look at what actually the

fuel we've given our body to be able to perform,

and then so many people just kind of don't ignore it as

part of training. And you've said that you use a carb load

for your, or a bit of a carb load with the carb

drinks for half marathons. and that

works really well for you. But we have to train our stomachs to be

able to take in that much.

>> Andy: We do.

>> Charlie: Do you take the Mortons on, like,

long training runs, or do you save that for race day and use

something else?

>> Andy: Yeah, that's a really good question. I do. But obviously,

fueling can be an expensive game, so I've also

bought. I've bought

maltodextrin on its own, which is the main

component for a lot of gels anyway. And,

what I will sometimes do is make my own soft flask

of maltodextrin, and I'll often have that before my

run. and I have been known to take it in a soft

flask out on the run. If I'm not practising with gels, I

do. If I can prefer to train with

gels, just, as you said, training

the stomach, getting it used to it. I mean, my next hurdle, as

with every athlete, there's not one person out there that

isn't in this position. But my next step is

to learn to take on a fifth gel, a 6th

gel. So training the gut to be able

to handle more carbs per hour.

and that's just a long process that we have to go through. But everyone

is at different stages in that game. Some people have no issues

with it, and some people struggle to just take on one

gel or any fuel at all. So it

is a long process. I just find because I've

now used Morton successfully for three

marathons, I am reluctant

to change, if you know what I mean.

>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. Just going to do a little plug

here. So, you said that, you know, fueling can be

expensive. The kind folk at, xmiles have given

us a 10% discount with

the podcast code cookeatrun

ten. So you can save 10% on your Morton

gels, your carb drinks. I personally really like

the scratch high carb drink. Have you ever

tried that one?

>> Andy: I haven't, but I have tried scratch stuff before. A

while ago, it worked with my stomach. It was one of the ones that was

okay.

>> Charlie: Yeah, I was really impressed. I tried it in Boston for the

first time. Don't try anything new on race weekend.

But, having tried other products before, I thought it would be

fine. And it was 100 grammes of carbs.

Per 500 mil? Yeah, absolutely.

incredible. And that was a lot of my carb

load. Was those at least one of those a day.

And it really just takes the pressure off, kind of eating

quite so much.

>> Andy: Yeah. Because you can often feel bloated if you eat a

lot to try and get that carb count up. So that's the beauty

of those carb drinks. It allows you to

feel not quite as bloated, but get the carbs

in.

>> Charlie: So I'm interested. So Morton

doesn't have electrolytes in. Did you take

any electrolytes or sodium

in your car blade or on course?

>> Andy: No, no. I. I found

that I was okay. Well, I say I was okay.

The last 2 miles were tough, and I kind of. I hit a bit

of a wall in at, 20, just past

24. So I got nearly to the end. And I

am quite a salty sweater. So I do often have to take,

electrolytes. But I have found in the past of my

last two marathons that I've been

okay with Morton and the fluid on the

course. Just making sure I keep hydrated, because in the past, I've

often suffered with stomach cramps just when trying to

drink. And so, after London

2022, that's when it was at my worst.

I should have gone into the medical tent. I didn't, and

I was in a bad way. And, you know, it's one of those things where

I'm not. Well, me and my wife had a chat, and it was like,

you're not doing another one until you can take on fluid.

Because dehydration in a marathon is just

horrific, you know? So the.

The first port of call was to get water down. And

now I have run two successful marathons, including this

one where I'm able to drink and take on Morton.

yeah, the next. The next step will be maybe

adding in some electrolytes. I have in the past, trained

with salt sticks. Salt tabs.

>> Charlie: Yeah.

>> Andy: Yeah, they're amazing. Yep. Salt stick.

>> Charlie: Use their pills or the chews.

>> Andy: They chews. And I've had

those, in long runs and practise with those. They work

well. but because the temperature wasn't crazy

hot during London this year, I just didn't.

And I just went with the fluid on the course. And, the Morton

gels.

>> Charlie: Did you take any of the leukazade on course, or was it just

pure water? Yeah.

>> Andy: No, I didn't want to. I'm not very. I have had leukocyte

before. When I'm running, it doesn't agree with my

stomach and I didn't want to risk it.

>> Charlie: Yeah. I mean, fair enough.

Again, I haven't trained with it, but in Boston,

I. Because it was really hot. I had planned

to have a full pack of the salt stick

chews.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: And, then got to the start line and was already

sweating, walking to the start line and I was like, okay, I

need more than this. So took the Gatorade at

every station and

was lucky that it was. I was fine, I think, because I

slowed right down during the water. So I wasn't trying

to chuck back a cup of

Gatorade at, pace.

>> Andy: Okay.

>> Charlie: Which helped bring the heart rate down just as I was drinking it. And I think that

helps kind of, overall, amazing.

>> Andy: So, my question to you is, like, Boston, everyone I've

spoken to about Boston, they said it was quite

warm, unprecedented temperatures at that time of

year. Over there, in the seventies. Would you.

>> Charlie: I was hearing somebody told me,

the end, that it was real. Feel 28 in the

sun.

>> Andy: Wow.

>> Charlie: Cause there's no shade on the course, but it was actually around

21, 22. Measuring kind of

on your phone.

>> Andy: Yeah. But direct sunlight is

a nightmare, so, I mean, fair play

to you. And you got on well with the salt sticks out there.

>> Charlie: Yeah. So I had only tried them once in

training and they were kind of fine. I tried the

watermelon flavour and then, you

know, there's all these pop ups and m. It wasn't at the

expo, but I just tasted one of the,

I think it was like the sour apple and really liked the flavour. So I was like, I'm

just gonna take these with me.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: If I feel like I need them, I'll have them. And by

math three, I was like, I'm gonna try these. And, yeah,

ate the whole pack and was totally fine. Amazing with those. And

then I took those alongside precision

fuel and hydration

gels, which I think tastes really good. I don't know if you've ever tried

this.

>> Andy: I have. And you know what, precision fuel and

hydration, I rate highly. So I took

their, I had their electrolyte tabs. You know,

you can get them in the tubes. So I had those one a day,

leading up to the race, because as a salty

sweater, I wanted to make sure I was topped up. I

have had the gel. They taste amazing. Again, they

didn't quite settle in my stomach, so I didn't want to risk it.

But their electrolyte

products, I've used loads over the last

couple of years. The tabs usually and the powder.

and I highly rate them because they cater for

a multitude of people. You can get the low content

and the high content of sodium, and I usually

get, all the electrolytes, I should say. And I usually go for the high content.

so if you are a salty and a heavy sweater, they've got you

covered. If you're a light sweater, they've got you covered. So,

yeah, I do rate their stuff a lot.

>> Charlie: Yeah, I use their, they've got a carbon

electrolyte drink mix which I used the

night before. And then I actually also had

it on the way to the start line, and I had a

handheld for the first 5 miles that I just sipped

on to make sure I kind of front loaded

my carbs and got some extra salt in.

>> Andy: Yeah.

>> Charlie: Amazing. And then I used, yeah, I used the

1500 milligrammes sodium tabs that

they've got in the summer, and then in the winter, I tend to use the,

like, lower.

>> Andy: Yes, I think it's

amazing.

>> Charlie: Yeah. I think what's been hard, especially in Boston,

for a lot of people, was that we've trained all winter. I think

if that's, we had those temperatures in, you know, an

autumn race, we would be a lot more acclimatised. But

this has been one of the wettest, most miserable

winters I can remember. So my runs,

I've been absolutely bundled up, battling the rain and

floods and, and then to have this bluebird

day where I was like, this is lovely to spectate. This is

not what I want to run my goal race in, but,

>> Andy: It'S always the risk of a spring marathon, isn't it? You kind

of, you love to see people have dates as

close to the beginning of April as possible.

Not towards the end of April, because the risk then

becomes higher that it will be hotter. But obviously, I know

with Boston, and I've heard and I've seen over the years, weather

can be so variable over there, you know, you

see torrential rain, scorching heat, headwind,

tailwind. You never know, do you? So,

yeah, it's part of the fun, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

But, I totally agree. Getting through the summer, doing that in the

autumn is way easier. We are more

acclimatised coming out of this wet and windy

winter we've had. yeah, we're not geared up for the heat

yet.

>> Charlie: Yeah. So I have a couple more questions about

your mortons.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: Not to get too personal, but where do you

carry them? I mean, I have my pockets

absolutely stuffed to the gills with them. I have to take

about eight gels in the kind of time I'm running.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: So where are you as a pretty fast runner

carrying your gels?

>> Andy: Yeah, in the pockets of my shorts, actually.

So I've got these shorts that have pockets on

the legs on the outside. and I stuff

them in there and I had six gels in the

one side and I had my ketone IQ in the

other side in a soft flask and I had my starting gel

in there as well. So I knew that when I was at the start and I looked down, I

was like, oh yeah, that's the gel I need to have ten minutes before. But, the

rest were in the side pocket and they're great. they're

some say sky shorts and I've just used them for the last couple

of marathons now and I'm a bit

of an awkward size. So with like flip belts and stuff, as much

as they are incredible. Like I've got two.

One is slightly too big and bounces around, the other's slightly

too tight. so as you know, like if you like

run with something too tight, you get stomach issues. It's not

fun. So.

>> Charlie: Especially after a car blade.

>> Andy: Yes, absolutely. So pockets for me on the side of the

shorts and that's all I need. It's amazing.

>> Charlie: Okay, great. So tell us more about this ketones

IQ. You said you were kind of testing it out. Have you been using it

in training?

>> Andy: Yeah, they're really interesting ones. So it's kind of, I'm

seeing it a lot over social media. Ketone. so from what

I gather, it's effectively a third fuel source

that we can use in terms of, with these

joule. I'm going to get the wording wrong, but with these gels

now that have, fructose and glucose, I think

if that's the right way. Either way, it's two ways of getting.

>> Charlie: Energy into two different types of carbs. That's it.

>> Andy: so, and obviously that's the way that we can get on more

carbs per hour. And then with m the ketone IQ,

although it is of caffeine free and

calorie free, effectively it's fuel for your brain,

it switches you on and, it's

unbelievable. I would be out there and

you would have a little bit of it and then the mental

clarity I often find that I get, it just

completely shakes you out of any

grogginess or tiredness and it really

mentally focuses you. And they sent me some,

the company sent me some to test, six weeks before

London, seven weeks actually. So I got to test

it on the last few long runs that

I could manage to do and I just found

it to be amazing. And so my plan was to have it

at 45 minutes and 1 hour 30 and then two

hour 15 or whatever in the

marathon. I got it down on the 45 and

130. and again just

running, I was just like switched on. And around the 130 mark

is actually where I attempted to negative split the

race and it really just gave me the focus that I needed

to try it. But sadly by the time I got to 2

hours 15, I was feeling a bit nauseous and it just

didn't, didn't work or go down, sadly. But yeah,

I'm keen to use it more

in the summer. Now you have a shot of it before a

workout or before a run and it just,

yeah, it gets, it's light.

>> Charlie: You feel like there is that switch.

>> Andy: Yeah, massively. It's like having caffeine but not having caffeine,

if that makes sense. so I'm really keen to do

more testing. So I gave them my feedback. I've

provided everything that I can. I've said when it works really well, when I don't feel,

I get ah, the effect from it that I do another times.

And now I'm going into some summer, speed work.

So yeah, I'm keen to test it

more.

>> Charlie: How does your fueling in general change when you're

doing kind of speed workouts

versus the kind of endurance runs that you

obviously do a lot more in terms of marathon training?

>> Andy: Yeah, with speed. So I do a lot of

my runs early morning because I've got three kids so

I get the school run done in the morning so

I have to get up quite early. So usually if it's

an early morning, easy or steady run, I won't fuel,

I'll just get up and go. If it's a session I'll often

just, if I'm honest with you, if I've got time I might

have a slice of bread with chocolate spread on it, but

often I don't have time so I'll just take a gel with me or

some maltodextrin. so now in the summer

I'm going to be, I usually do a 15 minutes warm up,

then my session 15 minutes cool down. So

I have spoken to Michael, the owner

of Ketone IQ, had a chat with him about it, asked him when he

uses it. and I'm now going to be having that

before a session, I'll do my warm up.

>> Charlie: Just that.

>> Andy: Just that. So I will have a

gel, or my m maltodextrin before the run in

general, to get something in, but then before the session, we'll

just have a shot of that. So that'll be in addition

to what I have been doing. But I don't tend to have

too much, to be honest with you, because I do have to get it done

early. And it's bad enough waking up at 530, let

alone 430, to let some food go down.

>> Charlie: I know the feeling.

>> Andy: Yeah. So it's, you know, that's what I'm going to be

experimenting with.

>> Charlie: M. Well, we'll have to get you back on the podcast to hear

more about it at the end of the summer, see how it's all gone and what your

experience is.

>> Andy: That'd be great.

>> Charlie: Of using it during marathon versus kind of

the shorter, faster stuff.

>> Andy: Yeah. The one thing I did do, I did it. I ran a

five k a week before the marathon,

just to sharpen up and off the

back of all the illness and stuff, I managed to run an equal

pb. And the one thing I did there, which I have never

done before, ever, is I actually had a gel before

my five k as well, which I used to

suffer really badly with stomach cramps. What if I had any

food in me for any race? that seems to have been

sorted by posture work. So core work,

upper back work to make sure that my chest is

up and my stomach is okay, because when I would, like, be tired

and hunch over, it would cramp up the diaphragm. And that's

where it happened. So that was really interesting. And I

felt the best I'd ever felt on a five k because I

got that fuel in. So I think fueling is

so neglected,

by so many runners and so underappreciated as to

what it can do. And I can guarantee you

pro runners won't go into a race under fuelled,

that's for sure, even if it's a five k. So, I mean,

we're all individual, but we've got to find out what works for us. I'm

hoping this ketone IQ is going to be a good

addition.

>> Charlie: yeah, I can't wait to hear more. I mean, I'm definitely

a major advocate for fueling for

everyone and training yourself to be

able to take fuel and, you know,

the earlier or the more practise you can

get in terms of getting your fuel in

before your short, easy runs

the less time it usually takes for most people. I know

that, as you say, digestion is such an

individual thing. I use rice

Krispies squares that my body seems to tolerate

really well. How good, though? Aren't they easy carbs. And

I can pretty much have that 15 minutes before I go for a

run and I'm fine. So they are very

helpful, though. My son has decided he likes them and

notices the blue shiny wrappers.

And so sometimes now I have to share the, roast Krispie or

he's eating one at 05:45 a.m.. M. And I'm like, is

this good parenting? But anyway, never

mind. Kind of a breakfast cereal. But,

so what is next for you? You said you're going to be working on some speed

over the summer.

>> Andy: Yeah, I want to try and I'm going to

probably. I'd like to. Okay. I'd like to run

Abingdon marathon m in October. It's the marathon that I

broke 3 hours out for the first time a few years back. It's one

I want to revisit after London being absolutely

incredible, I want to go back to something a bit lower

key, that I can sleep in my own bed, drive down there,

just make things a bit easier. so my focus

for the next 16 weeks or so

is going to be to work on that five and ten k speed. Because

naturally, if we want to get faster in the marathon, it is

important to work on that top end speed. So that's the goal. I've got a

five k pb that I want to chip away at,

and is, not relative to my ten k

time whatsoever. As runners, we often find we have

a distance that we're really good at and the distance that we're not so good at and the

five k I'm not so good at, so I'm terrible.

>> Charlie: My five k pace is basically the same as my half marathon.

>> Andy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah. I'm not far off,

so I think that's the goal. Just

work on that over the summer. I don't like to do longer races

over the summer. It's too hot, you know, and I just

always think to myself, whatever you do in the summer, that's nice

and warm. when you get to the autumn and winter, when

it cools down, you're going to reap the rewards

of all the hard work you've done. So it's

just about being as consistent as I can over the summer so that I

can go into the autumn feeling good.

>> Charlie: And do you have any tips for people who like me who are

also trying to get their five k to be

a little bit faster than half marathon pace.

>> Andy: Okay, well I'm going to be jump. okay yeah. I'm in the same

boat obviously. So I'm having to push myself out of my

comfort zone. So effectively

my five k time is

I split my five k

time plus 9 seconds. Okay. So my five

k time is 1621. My ten

k time is 330. Zero. So I

basically ran 216 thirties back to back.

How I've only managed to run 9 seconds

faster I have no idea. So the goal is really

just to push the top end more, which I

really don't like doing. I'm not good at that discomfort

so much it does. I'm good at

long slow suffering on marathon

training. That's my favourite. I'm not good

on that. Instant pain. Oh my word. I've got to hold

this for another minute. So getting

yourself out of your comfort zone, dropping into more

five ks. What I have done in the past is

just go for one five k a year. I'm

trying to do three or four throughout the year so that I

can start to learn to pace them better. I think

as runners, if it's a distance we're not good at or we don't

like often pacing can come into it

and if we start to learn to pace it better

we suddenly go oh actually that wasn't so bad.

Maybe I could go a little bit faster next time.

So that's a goal as well. And I think just,

yeah, we've got to embrace those faster workouts

and see if we can suffer a little bit better.

That's I think the best advice I can give.

>> Charlie: Yeah. And fuel for them it sounds like is going to be

your strategy this summer as well.

>> Andy: I think taking the gel before the marathon is something I've

done for a while. But now having had a Morton calf gel

before my last five k, that was a game changer. So I

now know that I can do that again and I

certainly will. And yeah, just being more

mentally sharp now there's fuel on board. Usually what I

do is have my last food about

three to three and a half hours before a five k.

So I actually feel when I get to the race my

stomach feels good but I feel quite empty.

and not the most energised. So now I'm hoping

that I can do the three, three and a half hours. But then within

the last half an hour, 20 minutes, ten

minutes, have a gel and suddenly get that buzz from

the caffeine and the carbs and. Yeah.

Feel better.

>> Charlie: Did you do caffeinated Morton's

at all during marathon? You just use the.

>> Andy: Just the normal ketones? Yeah, just.

>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely.

>> Andy: The ketones acted as the, as the caffeine

sort of effect for me. I

went for the caff gel, the caffeinated gel

at, ah, the fifth one. and I was kind of

already feeling sick. So it's not fair to blame it on that

gel. But, I then was sick, all over

the road, which was very unpleasant for everyone around me and

I apologise to everyone that was there and the runners

around me, but, I was already feeling sick. So I kind

of, I was like, well, if I don't try,

I'm going to hit the wall. If I do try and throw up, I'm going to hit

the wall. So I really. I've got nothing to lose. So I tried

and it didn't stay down. But, I do need to work on trying

to have. Because at the end of the day, caffeine is,

great for runners, you.

>> Charlie: Know, as a great performance booster.

>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. And so it's just one of those things I

need to start practising with. Maybe alternating a normal and a

calf, on each, each training run.

>> Charlie: Yeah, I mean, I took my caffeinated

gels to try and get the maximum boost.

So an hour before, I wanted the

peak caffeine in my, you know,

bloodstream during Boston.

>> Andy: Yeah.

>> Charlie: And that, I feel like, worked quite well. But I do find

they're a bit more bitter, both the Morton and their

precision fuel and hydration and other ones than the

normal. So they, I often find they're a bit harder to

tolerate in general. so I think

for me, sort of almost again, somewhat front loading

those. Yeah, was easier. So then it's a bit more

pleasant, the gels that you're taking later on in the race.

>> Andy: Absolutely, yeah. Something, something for me to try for sure. But no,

you're right, you're right. Getting. I always find that

not, you know, front loading the carbs

is good whilst you're not feeling sick, whilst you're not too tired, whilst the

heart rate's low in your body. Yeah, your body can,

can digest better, then

getting as much on as you can is great. Because then you know

that if towards the end of the marathon, if you are feeling a bit sick but you know,

you've got on a substantial amount of calories, then

at least you know that you're going to get to the end.

>> Charlie: Yeah. It's a bit of a reassurance, isn't it?

>> Andy: Absolutely.

>> Charlie: Okay, my last question for you. What did you

have post race and how did you end up

on the floor of the train? Did no one give you,

if anyone saw Andy's instagram, he was

like, squatting on the floor of the train on the way home.

>> Andy: Yeah. I had. What did I have? so my

cousin met me at the end of the

race, and my wife followed closely

behind her because she was out spectating. So as you walk

through the marble arches at the end of, the mall

at London, you end up in

Leicester Square. Pick a trafalgar square.

>> Charlie: Trafalgar Square, yeah.

>> Andy: And then straight ahead of you is a pret. And

I don't usually go to pret, but I went in there

and my cousin bought me an egg mayo sandwich, which was so

random, but I just wanted something that was

not sweet. after all the gels, I don't want that.

So I had an egg mayo sandwich and, that

stayed down and I had a can of coke and that was amazing. And

after that, I felt great. And I just, on the way

home, snacked on whatever I had left in my bag,

which was nothing. good. Packets of

crisps, maybe some fruit in there. But at that moment

in time, I really didn't care. And the train, well, that was a

nightmare because GWR, great

resting. railway cut the carriages

down on the train from nine until five, so we

actually had booked seats.

So my wife said, go on, quick, quick, get on there and go and get

our seats quick.

>> Charlie: You just ran a marathon hobble onto the train.

>> Andy: That's it. And I got on there and I walked down to my seats and they had

the little green light saying, available. And I was like

looking at my ticket going. And then someone

literally came on the tannoy and said, we

are not, there are no reserve seats on this train. We've,

had to basically cancel them. We've got shorter carriages.

So just. Yeah, all the seats were taken

and, no one wanted to give a seat up.

No. So we were out in the hall.

>> Charlie: Sat on the floor.

>> Andy: There were a few of us. There were a few of us. We were suffering

together.

>> Charlie: Great british hospitality or in escape.

>> Andy: Absolutely.

>> Charlie: Well, I'm sorry that that was the end to your race, but it sounds

like maybe for next time, taking something in your drop

bag. I don't know whether you took a drop back, but to get

that protein and carbs post race might be a

good idea.

>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. because I didn't have any of that. I

had my whole weekend in my drop bag. my cousin said, what should we get?

And I was like, well, I'm a vegetarian, so.

And prep didn't have the biggest selection of

vegetarian, stuff. And I was like, what? Egg. That will do

me.

>> Charlie: And protein. Yeah, protein, yeah.

>> Andy: Egg mayo sandwiches. That will do this. So that was the first thing. And then

the can of coke. So that was as best as I could

do. I tell you what I have been a bit of a sucker for

is, And I know this is very random, but I do quite

like, huel. Have you ever tried Huel?

>> Charlie: I haven't tried it, but I'm sure everybody listening has heard of

it.

>> Andy: They do a chocolate protein shake, and it

is unbelievably good. So I was hunting for

one of those. but I wasn't as prepared

this time. So, yeah, I'll have to make sure I am next

time.

>> Charlie: Yeah. I feel like my post race nutrition was

horrible after Boston, and I really think

both the kind of nutrition aspect and the hydration post

race was terrible for me, and I do think that

probably contributed to me feeling the

effects of the race much longer. I flew home that night, which was

also not my best idea. Went to work on

Tuesday.

>> Andy: Oh, wow.

>> Charlie: And, yeah. So I think that I

just didn't look after myself as much as I should have done, and

therefore have been feeling the effects and the quads

for, longer than I would like to.

>> Andy: It's difficult, though. I mean, we've got to get back to work and

stuff, and it's difficult sometimes to take time off, so. I know what

you mean. Sometimes you've got to just get on those trains and planes

and. And get back. But after a marathon,

you know, I think both of us can say it's the last thing we want

to do is be sat down and cramped up.

Yeah.

>> Charlie: Well, Andy, thanks so much. where can people find

you and find your abingdon training and see how you get on with

those ketones?

>> Andy: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm basically

fodrunner, which stands for Forest of Dean, fod

runner. on YouTube, mainly.

Instagram and TikTok are the three that I use

the most.

>> Charlie: Oh, I have to dig you out on TikTok. I don't really use TikTok very much,

but I feel like I maybe should. I feel

like it's. Maybe this makes me sound so

old. I had always assumed it was just people dancing.

>> Andy: Yes.

>> Charlie: Actually, there's a whole running TikTok that I had no idea

about until quite recently.

>> Andy: Absolutely.

>> Charlie: And the thing is rabbit hole for me.

>> Andy: Yeah. I produce sort of some YouTube

short form content and I thought, would, you know what, just

pop it on TikTok.

>> Charlie: Yeah.

>> Andy: And, Yeah, so we're doing that. We're trying anyway,

well, give you.

>> Charlie: Well, it was really nice to chat today and hopefully we'll get to meet

up and go for a, well, I would say a run, but I'll try and

keep up with you, I'm sure, on a very.

>> Andy: No, it would be fantastic.

>> Charlie: That was so great to speak to Andy and kind of

learn all about how he feels for a sub three hour

marathon. Now, I just wanted to kind of talk a little

bit more about ketones.

Now, ketones are small molecules that our

body can use for fuel. We use

two main fuel sources,

carbohydrates and, fat. Ketones are

the third energy source for our bodies that we can use

during running. We make our own

ketones when we follow a really low carbohydrate

diet. That's when we go into something called

ketosis and

utilise ketones for the energy. But

this can be a really slow process. It takes

days to trigger this. And

since we know that carbohydrates are, our

body's preferred source of energy,

it seems a little bit

counterintuitive to then rely on

ketones to fuel our body, given that it takes a very low

carbohydrate diet to attain that.

Some scientists have suggested that

adding ketones, like ketone

supplements in addition to carbohydrates when

running can give you that third energy

source. And the theory is that we can use

both our own natural sources of fat. So our natural

stores of fat, carbohydrates that we consume in our

glycogen stores, plus ketones to

benefit from these three fuel

sources. So the proposed benefits

are extra energy, more efficient energy,

and the idea that maybe we'll be able to

utilise our carbohydrate stores for longer because we've got

this third energy source. So while there's

some scientific rationale that sounds promising that

ketones could be a good energy source, there isn't

enough to back this up. And, it's really

expensive. Andy was telling me that a box of the

ketone IQ that he was using is 80 pounds.

Now, we've already touched on the fact that fueling for your

race can be expensive, especially in marathon training, when

you've got weeks on, weeks of long runs. And, is

the performance benefits that you may or may not see worth

a 80 pounds for 2024 bottles,

I'm not sure. He also said, and he said

he's happy, he's very open, happy for me to talk about this,

that where he's found the benefits is

on longer runs in marathon

training when he's also

taken, or in shorter runs when he's also

taken, a gel as well. So it's really hard to know

whether it's actually a combination of the

ketones with the carbs, or whether it's the carbs that he's added in

that are making the changes to his five k, his

performance benefits there, or whether it is the ketones in

that state. So I'll be really interested to hear in

the next few months how Andy's got on and whether he does

think that the ketones are worth that

money. In the meantime, I'm

personally going to be sticking to carbs. There's plenty of scientific

evidence that they work. I'm going to be having

carbs before all of my runs, any

run over 70 minutes. I'm going to be fueling on the run, and I'm going

to really focus on carbohydrates and

protein post run to boost that recovery. And, as

it gets hotter, making sure I'm hydrated. We know a lot

of the negative impacts on both our

gut and performance. It comes from dehydration. So as we

hopefully hit warmer months, that's something to focus

on. Don't forget to use the

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Let me know what you choose. Listen,

next time for an episode with Jamie running, talking all

about the sturker products, and I'm going to be trying a few of them in the next

couple of weeks.