No one knows the correct way to experience grief because everyone’s journey of grief is different.  However, many people ask how long will I be grieving and when can I expect to be finished?  In today’s episode Marshall & Steve provide their thoughts on this difficult question.  Some people ask is it possible to grieve something I will never experience? Marshall provides his thoughts on this topic. In today’s episode Steve shares his answer to “should I stay in touch with my loved ones’ friends”?  Marshall and Steve both share their experience concerning “is it possible grief can affect my faith?” All these questions and more in this episode of Hope Thru Grief.

Do you have a question or questions about grief? Send an email to hopethrugrief@gmail.com and we will read and answer your question on our next episode. Please share our show with anyone you know that is struggling with loss and grief. You can find us on the internet to continue the conversation!

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Jordan Smelski Foundation: http://www.jordansmelskifoundation.org

Tune in for new episodes every Thursday morning wherever you listen to podcasts!

Marshall Adler and Steve Smelski, co-hosts of Hope Thru Grief are not medical, or mental health professionals, therefore we cannot and will not give any medical, or mental health advice. If you, or anyone you know needs medical or mental health treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.

Thank you

Marshall Adler

Steve Smelski

Hello, this is Marshall Adler.

I want to thank you so much for joining us today with my good friend

and cohost Steve Smelski . Steve, can you please say hi to everybody?

Hello everyone.

And thank you for joining us for today's episode of Hope Thru Grief.

I want to, again, thank everybody for listening in

today, but what I want to dois actually talk a little bit about

where we left off at our last episode.

And what I want to do is ask Steve a question that we didn't get a

chance to really cover last time.

And that is whether grief ever really ends and whether you're

ever through the grief process.

So Steve, if you could just sort of give us your impressions of whether

your journey of grief has ever ended and where you are on that journey today,

I would say, and I think Shelly would say the same thing.

I don't think the journey ever ends.

We are different than we were when we had Jordan, we view things differently.

And I know we were talking about the different things that, and Shelly and I

been able to do over the last six years.

I don't want to give everybody the wrong impression that we don't have bad days

or tough times because we still do.

We've learned that if it's a difficult weekend and because it's mother's

day or father's day, We'll stay home.

We know our safe zone.

It's here at the house.

If we have people over and we know it's going to be a tough time, because

it's an anniversary date, we'll do it early so we can quit early and

then it's just us and we can make it through the rest of the evening.

We have learned to what's the right word.

We've, we've learned to avoid the difficult spots and the difficult

things that come up for us, which means on the difficult days,

we're better off now going out.

We won't go out for dinner.

It's just something that never ends.

I remember we were at my brother's house and he and his wife, they had

helped raise Jordan and he spent a lot of his first couple of years

with them while Shelley and I were working, they did daycare for us.

We were talking about how difficult it was one night to try and go on without Jordan.

And my brother looked up the picture that they have in the family room.

And he said, you know, all three of those people are gone.

They're not here anymore.

And it really hit home that I think he was spot on.

We're not the same people.

Jordan's not here.

We're not the people who were before.

The journey of grief to me is sort of been hijacked by

the idea that it's linear and that the stages of grief are numerical

and you go from one to the other, to the other, then your journey is over.

And I can just stay personally.

That has not been my experience.

I have gone through the stages of grief, numerically, and going

forward, going backwards, stayed at the same spot and so my question,

have you had a similar experience with the nonlinear journey of grief?

We have many times it's one step forward and two steps back.

I remember feeling very angry a couple months after Jordan's passing.

And ended up started taking a class on grief and learning that everything that

we were feeling was completely normal.

A lot of people experienced and feel the same things.

And we got through the anger and it came back two or three weeks later.

And I remember being so upset.

It's like, man, I got through this, I checked it off.

I got over it the first time.

It came back four or five times for me.

And it was a phase of two or three weeks of anger and then maybe a week off.

And then it kept coming back.

What I did realize the third time though, was I had experienced the second time I

knew it was a wave and it would go away.

I just didn't know how long it would be, but that first time it

comes back, you're caught off guard.

You're not expecting that.

How did it deal with it when you, when it did come back?

Because obviously you did with so many different emotions and the emotion of you

thinking that you're not making progress, or are you thinking that this is abnormal?

Are you thinking that am I losing my mind are all issues that I've heard

many people going through the pre process experience if you had any

similar experience during your process?

Yes.

I think I felt all three of those thought I was going crazy.

I thought there was something wrong with me.

I didn't understand why I was going back through it.

There's so many things that we don't understand as we try

and walk this path of grief.

And until somebody tells you, you know, that is perfectly normal.

A lot of people experienced that you think you're, you're abnormal.

You think you're not doing it right?

There is no right journey.

There's no correct path to take takes however long it takes.

And it takes you wherever.

It's going to take you.

One of the factors that I've dealt with in my own journey of grief

that I never really read much about or heard a lot of people discussing is the

laws of the anticipation of the future.

By that, I mean, so many things in life are future oriented.

You go to school to get an education, to get a job.

So you can start a family, support the family and get your life going in a

manner that you want it to be unfolding.

Obviously life will throw you curve balls that can change the

best laid plans of us humans.

But the one thing that does apply to so many people that are

trying to better themselves is.

for the lack of better term deferred gratification.

I'm going to work hard now in school to get this diploma, then I'm gonna work hard

at my job to have a good financial base where my family that's all good and well,

but the pay off for doing that is the better future that you hope will unfold.

Obviously you and I both lost sons and part of my grief has been the

loss of the anticipation of the good future of seeing my son Matt grow up.

I was fortunate enough to see Matt turned into a wonderful young man at age 32, but

I'll never know how he would be at 42.

52 62 or 72.

So my question to you is have you had similar feelings and

how have you dealt with it?

Yes, I would say both Shelly and I have had those feelings.

Interesting enough.

I think it's been over the last couple of years for us, not so much.

The first two years that we've started thinking about all of the

things we're not going to have.

Jordan was 11 when he passed away 11 and a half.

So we never saw what he was going to grow into or what he's going to

look like as an adult, you mentioned go to school, go to high school.

Well, there's graduation inthere, graduation's a big thing that the

parents want to see their child graduate.

Then go to college and watch them graduate college.

If they don't go to college, maybe they start a job and they get married and

all of a sudden you've got the wedding.

We've, we've started to realize the different things we're not

going to experience with Jordan.

We're grateful for the first 11 and a half, but Jordan would have been 17

now in August, he would have been going into his senior year of high school.

Uh, we'll never have a senior graduation picture.

We'll never watch him graduate.

And we're just, sometimes we wonder what those would be like.

Have you kept in touch with some of Jordan's good friends during

their development towards adulthood and how that been for you to see them grow up?

We have, and thankfully they've wanted to stay

in touch with us, the closest ones.

Couple of them we hadn't seen for a couple of years.

We didn't even recognize him.

Almost all of his friends are taller than I am now.

And I look up to him and Jordan never passed me in height.

So it's awesome that they want to meet us for breakfast or lunch every once

in a while and still let us know how they're doing and what's going on.

And they tell us some Jordan stories that we never got to hear, but it's a little

bit sad and a little bit painful realizing that we never got Jordan to that point.

Steve, let me just ask you this.

Growing up.

I wanted to always have children because I had a very good

relationship with my parents.

And although I knew I needed to get an education go to law school so I could

support the family that I would have.

The essence of my being was always wanting to be a father because I wanted

to have the same relationship with my children that I had with my parents.

And I was fortunate enough to have two wonderful sons, but obviously after Matt's

passing my view of the assets of my being was shaken to its core because I lost my

child andI have talked to many people who have gone through the grief experience and

told me that they've had issues of faith that has been affected by their grief.

Some people have told me that their faith has gotten stronger.

Some people told me their faith has gotten weaker or disappeared entirely.

I know that you and Shelly are very strong people of faith.

And I'd be interested in how your journey of grief with the loss of

Jordan has affected your faith.

I think for me, it has definitely increased and become much stronger.

I grew up going to church, understood about God, about Jesus.

Kind of got away from it through school college.

I always had it in the background, but it was Jordan's death was kind of a

wake up call for me and I've completely embraced it and gone towards it.

Shelly was always much stronger in her faith than I was

even from the day I met her.

And I think she struggled right after Jordan's death and she questioned

why, and didn't understand why I, um, didn't understand what was

going to happen or why it happened or how we going to make it through.

And I would say in the last few years, it's turned right

around and become very strong.

It's it's the part that we lean on now because we, we need hope

it's, it's a difficult journey.

How, how about for you?

How has that affected yours?

It's been interesting because I grew up in what's called a

Conservative Jewish Temple.

We went to temple are not every week, but I learned Hebrew at a young

age and I felt that going to temple was a cultural rite of passage in

the sense that a lot of my parents' friends were Jewish went to temple?

I knew a lot of their children who were friends of mine and it was a social and

a cultural exercise that I just felt was part of the process of being Jewish.

We had some relatives that were very Orthodox.

We also had some relatives that were not religious at all.

And I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and it was ironic that from the

age of four, we lived from the time of my birth to the age of four.

We lived across the street from my father's parents.

So up until the age of four, I remember my mother walking me across

the street to have lunch with my grandfather, which was sort of cool.

I got very, very close to him, but I was always amazed at, I never

saw my grandfather go to temple.

I never saw him really being involved in a lot of the ceremonial

aspects of the Jewish religion.

And I learned later that my grandfather actually was not religious.

And my father told me that my grandfather's father, which is my

obviously great grandfather and my father's grandfather was extremely

religious and my grandfather sort of rebelled against his father.

And I can't say that I rebelled against the Jewish religion, but the

aspect that was most important to me was the cultural social aspect.

So my faith, I think, has always been there, but not the basis of my core

essence of being someone who's Jewish .After Matt's passing, I felt that the

community support, I felt that the support of the rabbi, I felt the continuation of

Jewish history was something that actually strengthened my Judaism because if you

look at the Jewish history, you know, the old, there's an old joke that Jewish

people are considered the chosen people.

And the old joke is even look at Jewish history, which is filled with tragedy.

The old joke is couldn't God have chosen somebody else, because if

you look at Jewish history, it from the being slaves in Egypt, Spanish

inquisition crusades, the Holocaust.

It's just been a lot of sorrow, a lot of tragedy.

It just has so to me, as crazy as it sounds, the suffering of the

Jewish people is in some ways been a comfort in the sense that it just

sort of fits what the universe might have planned out for all of us.

And I think the way I look at it is all going to be here such a short time.

And my understanding, I asked my rabbi about the Jewish view of afterlife.

And I won't get too much into it.

But what he said is that the Jewish view is you really have to concentrate on being

the best person you can in this life.

And then the afterlife will take care of itself from that.

So the fact that Matt lives such a good life, helping so many people.

That to me, it showed that the quality of life that he led was the important thing.

He didn't have quantity,he didn't have longevity, but

that's always a relative term.

Because all of us are going to be here a short time, whether he

lived at 32 or 92, it's short.

What do you do with the time?

It's not how you died, it's how you lived.

So to answer your question, I would say it didn't make my faith stronger or weaker.

It made it different.

And the difference that I see now is a continuum of not just

Judaism, but humanity that so many people have lost loved ones.

And the effect on society has been huge and I I'll just digress for a second.

After Matt passed away, I was doing a lot of reading doing research on

people that lost children and I read this story about this man called Leland.

He lost his teenage son Typhoid when they were in Italy and he was a very

wealthy citizen of state of California and actually became the governor.

It was his only child and he was so distraught after he lost his son.

Leland jr.

They didn't know what he was going to do with the rest of his life.

And he decided that he told his wife we're going to adopt all of

children in the state of California.

She goes, what do you mean?

He says, I'm starting a school.

And his wife, I said, okay.

And he did start a school.

And the school that he started is called the Leland.

Junior Stanford university, which obviously everybody

calls Stanford University.

Nobody calls it the Leland Junior Stanford university,

because nobody knows the story.

So if you look at the big cosmic universe as the effect of Leland Stanford, losing

his son and the effect on humanity.

It's humongous.

We're talking over technology that might not have even been in existence.

If Stanford University wasn't in existence.

Obviously Stanford University is in Silicon Valley and the technological

advances that we've all been using because of that, who knows if that ever would

have happened if Leland Stanford jJr.

did not die at a young age in Italy.

So my point being is I think looking at a more macro view of my Judaism and

my view of humanity is just changed.

It's just not that a stronger, not that it's weaker, it's just different.

I just see it in a much more holistic manner and Matt's life was so well led

that it does give me some contentment and some peace, knowing that he made

the most of his time on this planet, which is what all of us at the end

of the day should strive to do.

I would agree with you that I was surprised that you said you

always knew you wanted to be a father because I'm not sure if I was ever sure.

I think I was okay if I didn't.

I was okay if we did I think.

I remember when Shelley told me she was pregnant.

I got really nervous because I was really worried about being a good dad.

And I was worried.

I, I wouldn't measure up or live up to that.

I, um, I embraced it.

He was definitely, he was colicky as a kid.

He didn't sleep through the night for two years.

And when you hold him for the first time you realized you would do anything to

make the live and to be successful.

And even if you had to lay down your own life for him, and, um, it was such a

rich experience having Jordan as a son.

I'm so glad I didn't forego that experience.

So even though we only had them in 11 and a half years, I wouldn't,

I wouldn't give up any of them.

To not go through the pain.

One thing that I've really focused on since he passed away was, and

somebody had said this to me once that it's not how you start, it's how

you finish and I want to finish well.

I can definitely agree with that.

I mean, I know.

That everything I know about you, you were an excellent father and Jordan

was lucky to have you as his father.

And I feel I was lucky to have Matt as a son.

And all the pain that you experienced to the grief process is directly

related to the amount of love that you have for that person.

So the more you love them, the more pain, the more grief.

And is that a trade off that I would take again?

And the answer is absolutely every day of the week, because grief is part

of the life cycle because death is probably the life cycle and getting back

to what I was talking about earlier.

I think when you realize that nothing in life is permanent, everything's temporary,

you own nothing, nothing stays the same and you have to be present oriented

to make the most out of every minute.

And, you know, my, my father is a funny guy and he used

to say a lot of funny things.

A lot of it was very smart also.

And he would say live every day, like it's going to be your last, because one day

you're going to be right, which is true.

There's a last day out there for all of us.

We don't know what it is, but it's something that makes you appreciate

the time that you have and with children, it is all temporary.

They grow up and they change and I think that the enjoyment that you get is

something that stays with you forever.

And that is why to me, the grief process, after man's passing, it's almost a

continuation of my still being a father because I'm grieving him as a father.

He's not here.

But it's just a different modality of my relationship with him.

It's just a different way of interacting between a father and a son.

And I think if both of us were not the fathers that we were, and we're not

as adamant about telling the world.

How are sons were wonderful human beings.

We probably wouldn't even be doing this show because we want to make sure that

the good work that they did while they were here on this earth among us is

continued by us because they're not here.

Would you agree with that sentiment?

I do.

It's almost like you feel the need to continue on their work for them

because they're not here to do it.

You don't know what that is yet.

So Jordan was always our purpose.

We focused on him our days, our weeks, our years are focused

on Jordan, on school, our time together, our vacation everything's

centered around Jordan for us.

And we, we asked for meetings with teachers over and over again so we

got him where he was successful.

That's all we cared about was his success.

And our focus was on him when he died.

I think we began to realize our purpose is still about Jordan.

That's why we share his story and why we tell people how he was infected.

And it may be rare, but it doesn't mean that we don't want to make

Jordan our purpose going forward.

And that's pretty much how we've been able to get through the last few years.

I'll say this, I know firsthand that the foundation that

you and Shelley set up in Jordan's name has done such good work.

And who knows how many lives will be positively effected or saved because

of the foundation that exists in George name, which again, it's an example of

what I talked about with Leland Stanford.

The fact that somebody still isn't here physically doesn't mean that

their good work can continue forever.

And that is, I think a part of grief that to me is the hope.

That the essence of your lost loved one will continue on through you

and whoever can take the mantle and continue with it after we're gone.

And I hope that for both Jordan's sake and Matt's sake, they will continue on.

For many, many, many generations.

And I think that is, to me, the biggest hope that grief can give to

you, realizing that again, we're all here for a short time make the most

of it and make the impact that will have your good work to continue on.

For generations after you're not here.

I couldn't agree more.

Well, Steve, I again want to thank you so much for talking

about your journey and I know that you and Shelley have been so good to

me and Debbie with respect to opening up with your grief share experience

and becoming a good friends to discuss obviously very personal, intimate journeys

that we have and I always feel like I learned something from you when I talk.

And that's why I like the opportunity to have an interaction with people

that are going through grief, because it is a journey that

is different for every person.

And I want to keep on learning the rest of my life, because I know what we said

at the beginning of this episode is true.

The grief never ends, and it's a journey that will be with us

until we take our last breath.

But again, the idea is to get to that hope that makes the journey

worthwhile to be a tribute and a Testament to our lost, loved ones.

So I can't thank you enough for opening up today with insightful,

helpful comments about your experience through your journey of grief.

Oh, you're very welcome.

I wanted to thank you for sharing some of your stories today, and

we'd like to thank everybody for joining us today on Hope Thru Grief.

Thank you very much.

and will talk to you next time.

Thank you for joining us on hope through grief with your

cohost Marshall Adler and Steve

Smelski.

We hope our episode today was helpful and informative

.Since we are not medical or mental health professionals, we cannot

and will not provide any medical, psychological, or mental health advice.

Therefore, if you or anyone you know requires medical or mental health

treatment, please contact a medical or mental health professional immediately.