When you first start parenting this different way, you're probably worried about how your children will turn out and whether you can trust the process.

In this episode, I have a heartfelt chat with Vivian Viester about the challenges and revelations of parenting, especially with teenagers.

Vivian shares her journey of discovering Aware Parenting and what she's learned, especially when things are hard.

We talk about the importance of self-compassion, understanding the underlying reasons for our reactions and emotions, repairing ruptures with our children, trusting their natural learning process, healing our relationships with our own parents, and finding self acceptance.

You can find out more about Vivian here: https://www.instagram.com/vivianviesterawareparenting/

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of parenting with play. I'm

Helena Mooney, and I am thrilled to have the lovely,

I'm gonna try and say her name correctly, Vivienne Vester.

Still not totally right. Anyway, Vivienne Vivian

is, a fellow Aware Parenting instructor and,

gorgeous, gorgeous mum, and I've known Vivian for several

years, lots of years actually now. Vivian

is, lives in Europe in various different locations, which I'll get

her to explain. But her son, Valentine, has just

turned 13. And so I thought with me having a

teenager, and Vivian's son has just turned to

a teenager that, it's helpful, isn't it? Because when you

start this, you it's a real leap of faith going

into, okay. So I'm listening to feelings and I'm not punishing and I'm

not doing all these things that were either done to me or that everybody else

tells me I should be doing. Is this gonna work out

okay? And so today's episode is to

give you an insight into what it's like to now have a teenager, to have

done Aware Parenting for a number of years, so you can

get some hopefully, a sense of this

is gonna be great. This is gonna be fine. I can trust the

process. So welcome, Vivienne. I keep saying it wrong. I am

trying, but it's so fantastic to have you here. So thank you for coming on.

No. It's such a pleasure to be here with you, Helena. Or shall I say

her name now? For the record, say your

name. In Dutch, it's, Vivian.

Right. Vivian. Yeah. But I really don't mind if you say Vivian. I

really don't mind. Yeah. I can really use to that too.

Yeah. Could you just give an overview then of you

and, you as a mom, in relation to Aware

Parenting and your lovely boy? Yes. Yeah.

You said it already. He just turned 13, so I'm a bit in

awe of looking back, how fast it goes.

Like, when we're in the moment, it sometimes

can look like this is never gonna end. And now

looking now 30 years later, I'm kinda like, oh, wow. That

that actually went really fast.

But, yes, I came in touch with Aware Parenting when he

was a little baby. I think he was around 3

months. And,

it resonated with me from

the beginning. A lot of things we did already.

It was really important for me that he would sleep with us.

So he did sleep with us already. It's just I

didn't have that crying part in place.

It was something that was on my mind a lot. Like, it it didn't feel

right what I was doing. Like, I was giving him the rest to

to stop the crying. So he was on the breast a lot for some

days, and, and that bothered me. I just didn't

feel didn't feel right. And it was on my mind, and I was

writing about it a lot. And,

and, yeah, after the night, I had the realization, what would I

do if my friend would come to my place? Would I go with her into

the kitchen and feed her and give her drinks,

or would I go and sit on a couch with her and listen to her?

And I thought I would go and sit on a couch and listen to her,

and the next day, the Aware baby arrived in my in my

mailbox. So that's, an interesting

coincidence. But, sadly, I

couldn't honor my insight in a way that I wish

I would have done. I was, like, beating myself up for it

for not knowing it sooner. And and it

was actually a really hard time for me at

at that time, like, when he was, like, 2, 3 months. It was

a really, really, yeah,

really hard time for me. And not only because of this bit, also because of

something else. Like, shall I share about it? Or shall you You do. Please.

Yeah. I think everybody listening can relate to having a hard time. So

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I always wished that

I could look at my boy. Or if if I would have a baby,

I always had this image. Oh, when I have a baby, I'm gonna look

at my baby with so much love and care in my eyes, and I will

be able to reassure my baby with my eyes that I'm there,

that I'm his alley. I'm his anchor. I'm

his safe haven.

And I think that I had that strong wish because that's something

my mom has not been able to give me for all the

right reasons that she has not been able to give me that, but I did

not experience that. She has been

very uncomfortable with making eye contact. And so I

had this strong wish of being able to do so. And then

when my son starting started to make eye contact around

that time and when they they consciously,

focus their eyes and start to make real eye contact, I noticed

I could not do that. Like, I could not look him in the eyes with

love and care and be his safe heaven. I felt really

uncomfortable too. I had a lot coming up,

with with direct eye contact. So that's

but that's been a whole journey on its own. And

with, crying has been a whole journey on its own

as well. We just stayed

yeah. With that because, I didn't know that

about what was going on for you then. And I think it's really

important to to know that when we have these

reactions that we intellectually don't want to have or we

do something that we intellectually know that this is not helpful or it would

be better if we did it some other way, but we can't actually help ourselves.

We can't actually help it. And there's always a really,

really good reason why. And

when and parenting, there's nothing like parenting to bring

up these moments and these insights

and this pain, actually, this hurt that you experienced

with your mom who, you know, through probably no,

intention that she, you know, she had a hard

time. And and so I think that it gives us

those that opportunity to to heal it to

heal. And that's what I love about Aware Parenting, which I hopefully might wanna

share a bit more about that. But I

hear you when you're saying it was a really hard time for you.

And if for those who are listening, who are going through a

hard time and going, I don't know why I'm doing this or I can't do

this even though I want to. You know, it's so it's so

valuable to know that it's a really good reason

why why you're feeling this way. Yeah. And to and

to give yourself compassion rather than beating yourself up over

it. Mhmm. Yeah. And what I've learned

on my journey, and not only with this, like, with lots of

other things, is to we can include it all.

Like, we don't need to pretend we don't have it.

We do need to try to hide it in a closet. We don't

need to ignore it. Like, we can include

all of this, and we're still

very capable of of mothering, like,

if we even if we have things that we wish we didn't have.

We're still capable as mothers, and we're still valuable, and

what we do is still valuable. And,

yeah, I think, yeah, I felt it felt important to me to to say

that that even though parenting doesn't go exactly how you

want to. Like, we all have these that's what I

sometimes find the beauty about theory and

also really difficult about something that we know

in theory because, of course, we we need it. We need the

theory because it's something we can resonate with. It's something we

can work towards to. But it's often

it takes a journey to to get there. Mhmm.

And that can sometimes be really hard as well, like, because we we know

what we want, and we know what we would love, and we know what resonates

with us, but we still have our own parts and feelings.

Needing that all first before we can

embody the theory. And that's sometimes a really

hard bit too, I find, having the awareness, having

the knowledge. But what you said too, but not being

able to to put it in practice yet in the way that we

would love to. Yeah. There's something that it's

not perfectionism or but it's really thinking, oh, I have

to do this right or the proper way. And if I don't

manage to do that, then I'm failing as a mom or I'm falling short.

And, yes. Or what happened?

What I Hopeless. Sorry. I don't want to interrupt. No. No. No. It's fine.

Yeah. Because I I mean, I did that. I used to look at it going

right. Well, I'm obviously not doing it right. And then when I discovered we're parenting

and when I'm not doing we're parenting right, and, you know, we can find

so many ways to to criticise

ourselves and to think that we are failing, but actually this is part

of life, isn't it? And it's, then it's an integral part

of parenting is realising,

I was going to say our shortfalls, but that's quite a harsh term. I think

realising our pain points and what we need support

on so that we can heal from that or at least, you know, move through

asp enough of it to then be able to to be with

our baby and or child in the way that we want to be.

Yeah. Yeah. And also

to realize that that also takes time. Like, it's not done in a

in a finger snip. Yeah. It's it takes time

for, yeah, for our parts and feelings to feel

safe again, to show themselves, and to

have their feelings hurt. And from I'm just thinking of our younger parts

now. Like, something that happened 40 years ago. Like,

I've suppressed that for 40 years or or disconnected from that for

40 years. So these parts that I'm holding on to

need to feel safe again to show themselves. They're they're not gonna,

like, we're children. They're not just gonna sit on my lap because I want to.

I'm like, okay. I want to, Yeah. It's not

like that. They also need to regain the

trust again with with me. And, like, yes, you're really gonna hear

us now? Is she really gonna be there for us? Is she really getting the

support that she needs? Is she really gonna meet my needs? And

and yeah. And that's a whole journey on its own as well.

Yeah. It is. I did a, personal

development before I became a mom. I saw a life coach. What did you do?

Personal development. So I saw a life coach before I became a mom. And I

remember going there thinking, well, I'll just need to go for a few weeks, just,

you know, knock off some things that are, you know, bothering me, and then I'll

be fine. Little did I realize that, you

know, this is an ongoing thing. What I would have done that 18,

19 years ago, still, there's still more to

uncover and, and, but that's the beauty of it because then

there's more as in and there's more for us to

become in the way that we want to become because we we do let go.

I think I'm stumbling over my words here, but it's it's rich. It's

it's I know it's which sounds really cliche, but it is genuinely a

really rich experience. So I'd love to hear how that went

for you with the eye contact with your boy.

How how did that evolve over time?

Yeah. I've at first, I'm called to include something

else because I think that's also going on for a lot

of parents and moms.

I had so much shame. So it was really difficult

to actually reach out and to start

talking about things that were hard for me.

And I remember I was part of the Facebook group

from back then, it was, Patricia

Tongren. I hope I pronounce her name. Patricia Tongren and

Mary and Rose. And it was and I was part of that Facebook

group. And it was because of their loving and empathic responses

that I felt safe enough to reach out. So I in the very

beginning, I had a few sessions with Patricia, and then I started having sessions with

Marian. But it was because of their empathic

responses that I thought, okay, I can I can

reach out? But it was really hard, so I can imagine

that more moms have that. So if if if

you have that I'm just talking to the listeners now. Like, if you have

that, like, I don't know, I just love to

say, please know we all have our struggles

and we all have our

learning processes, and we all have things that we

regret that we did not do, or that we

wish we would have done differently. So I just so love for them to not

stay alone with it and to, yeah, to

to try it, to reach out and see see how it is.

Yes. Oh, goodness. As I'm listening to your warm, soft,

gentle voice. I'm just like sinking into this. Okay. Oh

yes. What a wonderful woman to share these

things with. If I was yeah, wanting to to talk with you

more about this. It's just so you've got such a beautiful presence about you, Vivienne.

And I think that's such a an important part because, yeah, along with the guilt

does come the shame. And, you know, why am I like this? Oh, I

shouldn't be like this. Oh, I feel so embarrassed. I feel so ashamed

that I can't, you know, in your example, give

my baby eye contact. You know? You

know? Is there something wrong with me? Is there something I don't know. I don't

know what's going through your mind. That always is my default.

Yeah. So, yeah, no. I love that. I definitely had that too. And and

also what you said already, like, I I'm not an aware parent. Like, I

can't call myself an aware parent. Or or even when I was

an instructor already. Like, I don't know if you've had it, but even

when and, like, I'm an instructor for 8 years now, but that I'm

actually really working as an instructor. That's that's

not 8 years. So it actually Yeah. It took

me a a few years to to,

yeah, find myself good enough in exclamation marks

to to work as an instructor. So that was

yeah. That took a long time. But, yeah, like, with the eye

contact. So specifically about the eye contact. I learned

to include it, what I said. I had to

include these things rather than to because in the beginning, I want to ignore

it. It's like, I can't make eye contact. I can't make eye contact.

But oh, just

laughing now when I think, yeah, think back of some of the

things that I did.

But yeah. So ignore it. It was a part of it, trying to ignore

it even though it was so obvious. But then, yeah, including it including

it. Fine, talk

about it, like what you said. Like, I had sessions talking about

it, getting in touch with with my

feelings,

seeing it as a flag for me as well. So when and this

is especially when he started when he was a

toddler and in those years, when I could see it as a flag

for me, like, okay. I've got comfortable eyes. What's going on for

me? Yeah. And that's a very

different way to look at it rather than going, oh, what's wrong with me? What's

going on? Rather than going, something is

going on for me. Yeah. So I took it then. Yeah.

Yeah. And I I played with it as well. Like,

when I noticed I had

that, what did I play? How did I call it? I

think something like, family uncomfortable

is here. So I would include it into play. It'd be like, oh,

family uncomfortable is here, and then I started looking in all sorts of

directions and playing to be afraid to to make eye

contact so I could play it out. And that really helped

as well Yeah. To use it into play.

So that's what I did too. So I took it as signs for myself,

like, okay. What's going on? And

I and I introduced it into the attachment play.

So it became part of our world. So it

was included. So it was not something that I

hit or pretend I didn't have it, or it was something

that was included. I did my

own inner work with it,

yeah, and saw it as signs and used it in attachment play.

Amazing. And how would you be how would you feel

now about eye contact in your son? We

might it's I still have it sometimes. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, it's the same. I I'm like, oh, okay. Good.

There is something. But there are also times I'm not. Like, there are also times

I just really enjoy looking in his eyes, and then he probably doesn't even notice

it. But I'm kind of when he's been talking to me, you know, and I'm

looking at him and he's talking to me, I have it on the inside. I'm

like, oh, I'm just so enjoying looking into your

Fine. And I hope you don't mind me asking in this podcast, but how is

it then has it had an effect on your relationship with your mother?

The healing work you've done around eye contact with your son, has that

and you can share as much or as little as you want to. Yeah?

I think I have

so much more understanding and compassion for my mom.

Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. I,

I don't think she will listen to this. But if you are listening to this

mom, please, nothing personal. No.

My mom like, I

hated that about my mom when I was a teenager, the

not being able to make eye contact. And

and she's quite an insecure person.

And I hated that as a teenager. Yeah.

Yeah. Really hated it.

And I wasn't aware that on some level I had the same like,

I was really insecure as a young woman. Like,

really insecure. I was just not aware of it because I had my personality in

place. And,

yes, but looking back, I I it's so obvious. Like, I was

so insecure. And

it's almost like me becoming a

mom kind of cracked me open,

like, kind of cracked that personality that I've created

once open, and I met my

mom and myself.

Yeah. So I have a lot more understanding for her, a

lot more compassion.

Did did my relationship with her change?

I think it does. I think it's softer

because of having that understanding and compassion.

So it is softer. Yeah.

But to be honest, like, I still have feelings coming up towards my mom from

my childhood. So also that is like a continuously,

continuous journey. Like, I I was just last week, I was

just having so much rage coming up.

Yeah. And so that that's an ongoing journey as well.

Like, sometimes I'm I'm it's like, I don't live close

to my parents, so that's different too

than I imagine many people have. But when I am at home,

we're usually there for multiple weeks.

And sometimes I'm there and thinking like, oh, wow. I've got so much

compassion, and I've I'm feeling so

connected with myself. Do you actually hear the background noise? Because they

are really loud in the background. K. Oh, it's okay.

I've got so much compassion. And then there are times that I'm just freaking

out on the inside of me because I'm so full with reactions and

and comments. And so it's yeah. So there too,

it's an ongoing journey.

Yeah. Does it does that answer your question?

Yeah. I think so. I I mean, just thinking about how

sometimes when we heal, we work on things in order to heal

within ourselves to help our children. Wait. I have a few

can go back up a generation. So, yeah, it's interesting

hearing your experience with that.

Yeah. But what is very interesting too, there have been

occasions actually where where my parents have been listening to me

crying. Wow. So that's something

I could not have imagined before. But there have been a

few happenings in my life that I've been really sad

about. And there have been times that I was crying at the table with them,

and they were just present with me. So

that's yeah. Those it's not it's not been a lot.

It's maybe 3 times that I that are is

coming in my mind now. But, yeah, those those moments

were really

beautiful. Yeah. Wow. Amazing.

So now that your boy is a teenager

officially, I think looking back,

how have you, how can you sit? It's

a bit hard to say. How can you see the effects of Aware Parenting on

your teen age boy now? Because I suppose also you live quite

a radically different type of life. You live quite a nomadic

life constantly seeing on Facebook that you're moving to another, not constantly,

but you moved to, you moved countries a lot and you move around a lot

and, and you homeschool your son, don't you?

Well, not homeschool. Homeschool.

Yeah. Homeschool. Like, we don't have a a program that

we that we follow. So yeah. So, no, he doesn't go to school. That.

Yeah. Yeah. So

what do you feel confident about now with aware parenting

that to begin with, you might've been a bit unsure about

Bit like, oh, I'm stepping into the unknown here. Whereas now you can go,

yep. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, dear. I

could talk an hour about this already. We have 10 minutes. Looking

at the time. We only have 10 minutes, but it's kinda like, oh, dear.

Where's yeah. I could talk an hour about this

or even longer. What would be the top the top

things that you yeah. Top things. The first things that come to my

mind is trusting their learning

process. Mhmm. Yeah. That's

something that's blown my mind. Like, it's what you

say. You said that in in the introduction that

we we actually know each other for many years already.

And in the beginning, there were not so many instructors

to to have feedback from or

to hear their stories from.

I do remember having a book from Naomi Aldort. Oh,

yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I pronounced her name right by the way. Yeah.

Naomi Aldort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember a

few things from her book, and they just stayed with me. And one of

them is, for example, learning to ride a bicycle

that she said children have that balance.

They don't need these wheels on the side.

If you give those wheels on the side, they actually relearn

to trust that balance that they already have. And

then it doesn't make sense. Like, when we think we should,

when we think our child should be able to

ride without them, we decide when we take them off. So

that's something that always stayed with me. So when he was he was interested in

biking from a very young age, so I think he had his first

bicycle when he was, I think, 3.

We found this tiny little bike on on, a

flea market. Did you say flea market? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. On

a flea market, and we got it for him. And we really

needed to remind ourselves to not say anything because

we're so full of do this, do that, or don't do this, do

that, or break, steer left, steer right, whatever. So

we consciously taped our mouth.

Not not really, of course, but, like, we didn't

say anything, and we just gave him the bike. And a couple of hours later,

he was he was cycling. But what I

see now looking back, the

things he feels, in my opinion, he feels most

competent in are things we did not

interfere or interfered at the

least. Like, for example, swimming too. We did not skip him swimming lessons

or whatsoever. And he, he feels really

comfort competent in swimming. He feels really competent in in biking

and skiing. So

that's that's something I'm seeing. Okay. Things where

we did the least intervention is

can I say it like that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He feels

really competent in. And also because

a lot of parents and I was a bit worried about that too with the

writing and reading, because children that don't go to

school, they do start later with these

things because the main communication is talking. Like,

we we talk in in our communication. And in school,

I'm sure you know this, but, it just comes up

for me to say, like, in school, they want children to write as soon as

possible because that's their way of communication. Like, they read

what the children write and and and with that measure,

they're where they're at. And and we

didn't have that at home. Like, our main communication was was talking.

So that came way later, the writing and the reading.

But he writes he reads. Oh, he writes on the

computer. He doesn't write much like this. He doesn't

write much with him, but he did. And it all came naturally. It all came

naturally. And that's what blows my mind. I I don't know how

it works. I don't know

how they do it, how children do it, but it's it's

really in the first couple of years, we are used to trust

our children. We're used to trusting that they learn to

crawl when they're ready. They learn to walk when they're ready. We don't interfere. We

don't say, like, we we don't try to make them

crawl or Yeah. True. True. Yeah. And so

we really trust their learning

process. And and some and some point, we've

learned to not trust that anymore. At some point,

we we've learned to interfere and and think that we

should learn them things. So that's,

yeah, that's something that's really blown my mind several times that

that their learning process like, it continues the same

as in the very beginning, that learning process, but just with different things.

And I'm amazed by that. And also by seeing

when they're ready, they will do it.

Like, we don't need to force things. There will become a point when they're

ready, and then they will do it. And then you'll be sitting at home and

be thinking like, wow. They're just doing it now, like,

on their own. And so that's, yeah, something

I find beautiful to have seen as well. Like, we don't need to push things.

Like, sometimes you have to, or or I guess some in some

families, especially when when

there is a school involved, you

you kind of have to you kind of have to push

your your yourself and your child into things you would otherwise

not push yourself and your child into. So I see that too. But in

in the way that we lived, we did not really need to

push him much in,

yeah, in in ways that you would maybe

have because of him living a different life. So it's, for

for me, really reassuring and beautiful to see. Wow.

It has all its own timing. And when the timing is

there and when they're ready, they will do it. And whether that is

learning or writing or going out on their own or

anything? Sleep I mean, bringing it sort of slightly out

of the schooling environment, homeschool environment, unschooling environment. But, you

know, even just like co sleeping, I know when you started co

sleeping, everyone's like, oh, you're making a rod for your own bed back and, oh,

you're never gonna get him out and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And with my

son, he slept with us until he was 6.

And then I think I got to a point where I was done

and he then just transitioned so easily

into his bed that I that was a real revelation for me because I

thought, you know, I believed everybody going, oh, god. Once he's in, how am I

gonna get him out? And then that was stressing me out rather than actually just

enjoying. I mean, I did, but enjoying being with our children in that

way and knowing that, you know, he's not gonna wanna be sleeping with me

when he's 24, you know? And

every now and again, we will, you know, we might, he might come in with

me, like, I don't know, rarely, but every now and again.

But trusting that process that actually our children are designed to be with us when

they're little, they need us. And then they are gonna venture want

to learn about the outside world. They are gonna become more

independent or interdependent really, naturally on their own terms.

And the more we try and force it, the

less the less enjoyable it is for anybody, and it

doesn't really help them. Yeah.

Yeah. And, sorry to jump to a second

thing, but but, that's because I'm aware of the time. Of Internet. Yes.

Yeah. Because another thing that I think is

important to mention is the trust. Like, there's

a way way more trust now. Like, way more trust

in our relationship, way more trust in the

ebbs and flow of life, way more trust in the process of

things. Things I could freak out about when he was

little, I don't freak out about anymore

because I know tomorrow is a different day. Like, I can have, like, a really

terrible day today, and I might not be

up for play at all. And I don't have any empathy, and

I don't have any understanding for for the other

person. And I can

be way more kind with myself, take care of myself, and

know there will be another day. There will be another day where

where we'll be where we will be laughing on the ground

again, because of having so much fun together. And there will

be another day where he might

share and I and I'm in a in a in a space of

being really present and being able to hear him in

in what he wants to share with me. So that's

something I'd love to include too, that there's a lot more

trust in in the process, in the journey,

in the relationship, and that that things will change

again. Yep. And I I think that is a really

important point to note because I often have mum saying, oh gosh, I did

this one thing. And does that mean he's now no longer gonna trust me? Is

this gonna impact our relationship? Have I damaged him? You know, and

and getting very upset, which I've also done about a

particular instant. And I just think that that there is another day. We do have

that opportunity to repair, to to trust our relationship,

actually. It's trusting the child, but also trusting that the relationship that we have with

our child is strong and will withstand

ruptures and us losing it and not being as present and

as wonderful as we would like to be. But we can trust

that, actually, we we can have a really good relationship with our child despite all

of that. Yeah. Yes.

And that's repairing can also actually be something really beautiful.

Like, I found that too that sometimes it can be really beautiful to

repair something. Yeah. And even that has its time,

I find. Like, sometimes we want to repair, but it's we're

actually not ready to repair yet. I don't

know if you find it, but I have that sometimes. Like, sometimes Sometimes I I

don't wanna say sorry. So we

no. No. No. Not even that. But sometimes, like, we we carry our

feelings about it as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Actually

yeah. And sometimes it also takes time

to to process these feelings.

And even though we might want to

repair, get over it, and continue, it's it

can take a long time too. Yeah. It

can. Conscious of time. Any passing

words just to wrap up with about

your feelings around Aware Parenting. You've been doing it for 13

years. Any final sort of takeaways

succinctly? We'll obviously have talked about this again another time, but just for now, just

so that people can go Okay. It's good. Okay. I'm just gonna tune

in with that for a moment. I don't know.

Just I think what the first thing that comes to me is

and I'm just gonna use these words because that's so often the

words that come to our minds. Like, you are a good enough parent.

Also when things don't go

as described in the books. Like, you truly are a good

enough parent with all your

with all that's in still in your backpack. Like, with all the younger parts

that you still carry with you, and with all the

and in all the moments that you

don't parent in the way that you would love to from your

thoughts. Like, you truly are valuable, and you truly make

a difference. And what you do is

truly valuable. Yeah. I can't

think of a better way to end a podcast episode. That is just,

oh, I'm sitting there feeling that going, yeah. That's that's

such an important thing to have, and thank you for saying that and your

beautiful, soft, lovely voice. Thank you. No. Thank you,

Helena. And thank you for coming on today. And sorry it's a bit

shorter, than it needs to be. I know. My daughter's

just

difference during this interview.

Is there more skiing? Sorry. You were frozen. I didn't hear

what you what you said. Are you doing any more skiing? Vivian's had a beautiful

No. We need to go to the doctor as well. Oh, okay. Alright. Yeah.

It's time for you. Thank you very much, and thank you to those of you

listening. And, we'll see you again next week. Take care.

Bye.