In this episode of Movie Wars, Kyle and Seth team up with guest McKenna McFadden to break down Antoine Fuqua’s Training Day — the movie that turned Denzel Washington into one of cinema’s greatest antiheroes. We unpack the Rampart-scandal roots, the wild casting stories (Eminem as Hoyt?!), on-set tricks that shaped Ethan Hawke’s performance, and why “King Kong ain’t got s*** on me” may have clinched the Oscar. Plus: real gang-neighborhood shoots, Latino representation, and a lively debate over music cameos that almost derailed the vibe.

⏱️ Timemarkers

• 00:00 – Intro & McKenna joins the couch
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• 02:40 – Why Training Day mattered at the end of the ’90s
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• 04:00 – Casting chaos: Samuel L. Jackson, Eminem, Matt Damon
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• 06:10 – Denzel vs NAACP concerns & Fuqua’s vision
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• 08:10 – Kyle’s undercover-cop dad connection
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• 11:00 – Filming in real gang neighborhoods & the “poker scene” tension hack
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• 13:30 – Eva Mendes, Terry Crews & Latino rep
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• 14:50 – “King Kong ain’t got on me”: the improvised line that made history
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• 19:20 – Heat check: best LA movie? Training Day vs Heat
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• 20:40 – Denzel’s Oscar vs Russell Crowe & Ian McKellen
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• 22:45 – PCP, moral slide & why Hoyt’s arc works
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• 24:20 – Alternate timeline: Eminem as Jake Hoyt
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• 27:00 – Music cameos graded: Snoop, Dre, Macy Gray
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• 30:30 – DMX or Ice-T as better fits for Dre’s role?
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📌 Show Notes & Takeaways

• Training Day captures LA’s dangerous pulse through authentic locations & casting.
• Denzel Washington’s Alonzo Harris redefined how villains can command the screen.
• Ethan Hawke’s rookie energy came alive thanks to clever directing tricks.
• Real gangs, real tension: Fuqua’s background in music videos brought street realism.
• “King Kong ain’t got s*** on me” was pure improv — and pure Oscar gold.
• Even polarizing cameos add to the film’s gritty texture.

Foreign. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie wars podcast. I'm Kyle.

I'm Seth. And once again, we have my lovely roommate, McKenna McFadden.

Hello.

Hello. So glad you're here. As a quick reminder, the format of the show goes as this.

We go through film history, we're going to talk about randos, which are the most interesting things about the movie.

And.

And we're going to do the questions, which are just questions that we use to generate great convo and finish out with the War Zone, which is just rapid fire. Scorecard. Yes or no. Do we dig it? Remind us of who you are.

Hey, I'm Seth's roommate. I also have a degree in film and television from nyu and I also work for a major sports entertainment company in music licensing.

Is there a battle? You know how there's like East coast, west coast hip hop?

Yeah.

Like UCLA film school versus NYU is absolutely 100%.

Really throw AFI in there too.

Really?

Yeah.

I've always wondered.

It's just a very different. I think it's a very different approach to filmmaking, like New York filmmaking. And like LA, like Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is very LA.

Yeah.

And Tarantino, I think, is more LA.

Scorse. He's more New York.

Oh, 100%.

Yeah.

Marty. And Saint Marty.

Marty.

Marty Queen, specifically.

Um, but yeah, there is a. There's a rivalry.

There's a vibe there that's interesting. One of my favorite UCLA film school facts is that Francis Ford Coppola went to film school at Jim Morrison. Wow. Yeah.

I also didn't know Jim Morrison was in film school.

Yep, that's where he met Ray Manzarek, the keyboardist. I'm a huge Doors fan. Very wild. Very wild. That's cool. And do you feel like. What do you.

What do you see a lot of, like, with your film degree, but did that alter your appreciation of movie? Or do you think it's more mechanical?

But there's still like an emotional kind of like, with me, like, when I meet people that went to school for music, there's like the commercial, the technicality, the music theory, but then there's the actual expression, the emotional aspect of music that can't really be taught. Like, do you feel like there's a difference?

For sure. I mean, it brought out a lot of. It brought out more of the magic of filmmaking.

Okay.

And like the movies that I had fallen in love with growing up, you never know fully the details of how things are made. And then once you. Once you're in the kitchen.

Yeah, yeah.

It's it's fascinating and it brings. It brought out a renewed love of filmmaking. I mean, obviously, I spent a lot of money for that, so I have loved it. Yeah, it's magical.

That's cool. Nyu, ladies and gentlemen. That's in New York, in case you didn't know. In case you thought it was New Yearland.

I'm just trying to think of an NY that's not New York. It's in New Year's. Le Eveville. Damn it. I once again expose my genius on the microphone live. Training Day. Yeah, I clip it. Training Day.

I am so spoiled. Three of the last four movies we've covered have been in my top 50. This is one of them. Kind of a weird outlier. You know, we talked about.

What movie did we record? Oh, we did Flatliners.

Yeah. Yeah.

Flatliners is similar. Not. There's only one similarity, not in terms of how it's made or what it's.

About, but I mean, tonally.

Tonally.

Yeah.

This is on the tip of a new decade.

Yeah.

Wachowskis. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a transition period for film. But, you know, this movie, in some ways, it's. It really. It's like, culturally.

Was such an interesting film.

Yeah.

You know, and it's based on. So we'll get into a little. The history. It's actually based on a very real event. And I didn't know this.

It was called the Rampart scandal, which was apparently a scandal where this was actually happening, was depicted in Training Day. I don't know if it was as cool and fun to watch as it was watching. I didn't know if they got an Oscar, but.

Yeah, so that's actually was the underlying. And there was a lot of interesting casting choices before they landed on Denzel. Samuel L. Jackson was first to play. Alonzo was the first.

And, you know, we.

That wouldn't have worked.

I don't. Yeah, I don't think the sexy, seductive swagger would have been there.

He's too funny.

Like.

Well, even. I mean, I wouldn't say back then especially he was too funny. I just. He's. He. He's not as good at the subtleties as Denzel is. He's very over the top.

Yeah, Denzel is.

No.

Oh, Samuel Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he has the range in the notes.

Yeah. I feel like it just would have been a lot of.

Yeah. Because Alonzo's as. As much as he's. As much as he is a bad dude. He's very complex.

Yeah.

Very, you know, a lot of depth there. A lot. And, you know, this was a. You know, we'll keep going on cast. This is crazy.

There's actually a lot more casting craziness with Jake Hoyt, Matt Damon, but Eminem. Yeah, yeah, Eminem was. And he turned it down to focus on filming 8 Mile. But, you know, Eminem was almost. He was actually the front runner before.

Oh, that's crazy.

They landed on Ethan Hawke again.

I don't think he would have pulled it off. Well, I don't think the character would have been fundamentally different if Eminem was in that. In that spot.

Oh, yeah, I think.

Yeah.

Good.

I think Matt Damon probably would have done pretty well at that time.

I agree.

Like a young Matt Damon, Hoyt needs to be, to me at least, like more of a baby face sort of character. And I need to believe that he's this young rookie cop who is a goody two shoes and is deflowered throughout.

Yeah.

For all intents and purposes, I don't think Eminem could. Yeah, I don't think Eminem could pull that off.

Yeah. He's just too harsh of a person.

I just don't see. I mean, 8 mile was great because he was Eminem in it.

Yeah.

I just don't see him as a guy with rage. In any. Every interview I've watched, he's the same like, yeah, I tried to kill my girlfriend, but I'm better and sober now.

You know, his best role was playing himself in the interview.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He comes out as gay. It's a great moment.

Yeah. No insult to Eminem. I mean, he's, you know, top five hip hop artists of all time.

Incredible.

Yeah. But, you know, as an actor. And this was originally directed by.

It was going to be directed by David Guggenheim, who'd won an Oscar for An Inconvenient Truth.

Okay.

But Fuqua was brought in because he was close friends with Denzel Washington. And so they like the synergy between those two.

And there's a lot of interesting facts about Denzel taking this role, because one of the issues that he faced was is that the NCAA CP did not want him. They actually pushed back on him taking this role because.

Because of him playing Malcolm X, they looked at him as a guy that played really good, strong good guys and important figures in movies. And he had never played a bad guy. And so not only does he decide to play a bad guy, he plays a really convincing, really good bad guy from.

This isn't my perception, by the way. This is just this. You'll find this in research. They didn't want it to reflect. Reflect negative, negatively on the black community. Him.

Because they looked at him as an important figure to black creativity. And for him to play this role, they felt like it would be a knock on the black community.

Right. Because he had been playing Malcolm X, etc.

Like, yeah.

Powerful, particularly black characters.

Yeah.

I do find it interesting that they made the bad guy black in this situation because I feel like if this movie was made today, it would 100% be switched. The rookie would be a black guy, the evil person would be a white guy.

And I, and I feel like it, it could have been a very different movie if that had been switched. Was there a historical reason why, like, did the guy that this was technically about, was he black? Like, do you know of any, any.

I didn't dive, I didn't dive into the Rampart scandal too much, but yeah, I don't know, maybe because it's, it's.

Just, to me, like, just thinking about Hollywood culture, it's. It's just a very different decision than I think most people would have made.

Yeah. Today especially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know.

And you know, I will say this, you know, and I. I'm actually looking forward to adding my perspective because I was raised by a narcotics officer, an undercover narcotics officer. Bad dude. I mean, really bad. Completely psychologically broken by the job and.

You know, died heroically in the line of duty.

Yeah, yeah.

As in, you know, throat cancer from, you know, drinking alcohol, liver failure and falling asleep with Copenhagen in his mouth for 20 years. Yeah. Line of duty. Line of duty. But sorry, I don't mind on him, but not to talk about my shit, let's talk about Denzel Washington shit.

But it's, you know, I watch this and there's a lot in it that I resonate with. You know, there is just this.

My dad, one story I think of as my dad would come home late from either stings or philandering, you never knew which one. So good. Equal balance of both. Sometimes he was doing both, but, you know, he would do late night stings.

He was pretending to be a drug dealer or pretending to be someone who bought drugs. And my dad looked like a drug dealer. My old childhood had long hair, piercings. But he would wake up from sleeping all morning, and he would.

The TV would be on and Cops would be on. Remember Bad Boys? Bad Boys. And he would, like, be soapy, big fucking pussies. You know, he'd be like.

Because, you know, he felt like there was just no. They didn't have skin in the game. Which obviously patrol officers, very dangerous. They get killed all the time there. It's very dangerous job.

But as a narc, who is hanging out with the most dangerous people on a daily basis, there was. You have to have a certain numbness, a certain personality to do that job, to be an undercover narc.

And so when I watch this movie, I think I could see how you could get here. And it doesn't take long. No, it doesn't take long. To go from probably. Alonzo was a good guy at one point.

Yeah.

To sliding into darkness.

Well, he kept saying the whole movie that. That Ethan Hawke remind him of him when he started.

Yeah.

Like, just. And it was interesting that it was an insult, but in some ways, it's like you really see the depth into. No, he probably was a really good guy.

He probably came into this for the exact same reasons of. I want to change things. And then just got caught up in everything.

Yeah, absolutely. It's easy to do a couple more interesting things about the history of this movie.

Didn't the soundtrack come out on 911?

It did.

Maybe it did.

The soundtrack was released on 911.

Yeah.

Yeah. You want to be a rock superstar? Live large, big house, a couple of cars.

I did love Snoop and Dre's cameos.

I have a category for it. Oh, my God.

That was so fun.

Macy Gray with her fingernails.

Yeah.

How the hell did. She must have one hell of an agent to get her in this role. You're telling me there were no other actresses?

I think. I think director Fuqua was just. I mean, he. I think we had looked into his history, but that he was involved in the music industry.

Oh, yeah. He did a lot of music videos before this.

Very connected.

So, yeah, they're probably just all friends. He's like, come in my movie.

Yeah. Well, and part of it was the authenticity, too. I think in the next. The last part of the history is that they. He wanted to film in Gang neighborhoods.

Yeah.

So a lot of this movie was filmed. Some of the folks you're seeing are actual gang members. So he filmed in the Hoover. The Hoover Block, P.J.

watts, Bounty Hunter Bloods, and some other Imperial Courts housing project. These are all real gang neighborhoods that he filmed in. So he wanted that authenticity.

So I guess it makes sense that he would, you know, require the services of folks that, you know, know that and sing that, you know, or do that kind of music.

So. Yeah.

But, yeah, really interesting history here, and maybe it's your first day on the job and you're being pressured to do things you don't want to do.

Like, still always so jarring.

Yeah. Like robbing drug dealers, killing drug dealers and staging coups against drug dealers and.

Chasing Snoop Dogg in a wheelchair.

And killing Russians.

Yes.

It's all part of a day.

I don't think any Russians were killed in Los. Well, off screen. Yes. Yeah, that's true.

Which I know.

Russians were killed in the making of this film.

Yeah. No Russians. No rush. And. But anyway, after a long day of training with a crooked cop, you need a podcast.

You need to kick back with the beer and listen to Movie Wars.

In fact, I would. I would bet you that Denzel would not have been the way he was if he had been listening to Movie wars when he wasn't dealing with people.

I know. You just need to chill out.

Yeah.

Just do your job. Don't get crooked. You know, maybe get a side hustle and listen to Movie Wars.

Yes.

So randos.

Randos.

One of my favorite things. We've. We've had a couple of randos like this, but one of the things that they did for the poker scene, which is probably my favorite scene.

Yeah.

With Smiley and the guy that's from Breaking Bad. The incredible. I have to pull his name up later. But they. He was. The director was giving different actions to the other guys. So the gangsters, he.

He was telling them what to do in the movie, but he wasn't telling Hawk anything, so he excluded him. And he wanted him to react and be. And have tension and be surprised. So, yeah, all those actors were getting instruction, except for Ethan Hawk.

Nice.

So his reactions are very, very real.

Hell, yeah.

That scene is amazing. Smiley.

Oh, yeah. I would have told him that those were actual gang bangers.

Yes.

And just to, like, be on your best behavior, and then they just start going ape.

And as. And as much as the NCAA did. It is the ncaa. P. Is the ncaa cp. I'll have to. I'll correct that in post. One of them. They.

As much as that was an issue, this actually was a celebration for Latino actors. So this movie was actually celebrated for featuring a lot of great Latino actors. And actually Latino representation was a huge deal here too.

So even though they're all criminals.

Yeah.

Eva Mendez.

Huh?

Eva Mendez was not a criminal.

She wasn't. And this was her, I think, her debut or one of her. Her early films.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Very earlier in her.

She married Ryan Gosling. Are they still married?

I don't know.

I think they have a couple of kiddos. They must be ugly kids.

Yeah, gotta be. That's how that works.

That's how that works. 2. Two rights make a wrong.

I will genuinely say, though, like we talked about this last week with. With Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, this is another movie where the supporting cast is really who sold the main cast.

Yes.

Because again, both Denzel and Ethan Hawke did an incredible job. But if everyone else had kind of phoned it in, I wouldn't have believed it as much. Every single person on camera sold everything 100%.

And it's so good because of that.

Terry Crews as a silent bodyguard.

Loved it. I literally was like, oh, it's Terry Cruz.

And he's huge.

I recognized him from the back of his head when he was up clapping for the pigeons.

I mean, he's always been huge, but he is huge.

Yeah.

I think he's fresh off the NFL in this one.

I think so. Yeah.

Is it his first?

I don't know if it was his first, but he definitely was close. He looks close to the NFL here. He was an nf. He was a. He was a Redskin. He played for the Washington Redskins weekends. But yeah, last one.

And this is the craziest thing of all. The King Kong ain't got on me line ad libbed.

Oh, nice.

Complete improv.

That was a great.

Really one of the most, you know, important lines in film history. Honestly, like, a lot that may have what got him the Oscar, because it's like he was living that moment too. With the speech.

Second movie.

It's a great speech.

Terry Crew, second movie.

Okay.

First one was the Sixth Day with Arnold.

Oh, oh, okay.

Michael Rapaport.

That's. That's. That's coming back to me now.

Yeah.

All right, the question, if you were in a prison, would you rather have Smiley or Sniper at your back? Oh, Sniper is the.

Sniper.

Was. He was the one. Have you ever had your pushed in the crazy.

Christ. Yeah.

No, I'd have Smiley played by Raymond Cruz, who was. Who played Tuco and Breaking Bad.

This is. This is on your side, right? This is who's back. And you.

Yeah.

See, I would go for the crazy one.

Who's on your back and who's got your back and who's in your back.

Yeah.

In prison.

Yeah. Sniper. I would. I would. I would want to have my back. Because he's batshit crazy.

Yeah.

People get scared of that. But at the same time, the subtle scariness of. Of what's. The other guy's.

Smiley.

Smiley. Oh, that was. That was scary.

I would try it. I would trust Smiley to do some shit.

Yeah.

And, like, really plan it out. Is the brains.

Yeah. Shout out to Cliff Curtis.

So good.

Incredible. Ed Smiley.

The phone call with his cousin was perfect. And I love. I very much love. Even though she was, like, screaming the gang name when that whole moment was happening.

I love how you kind of feel like it's not actually going to come back.

Yeah.

And then it comes back in the best way possible.

It does. You go to school today?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Maybe it's the mustache. I feel like the mustache should get a separate IMDb credit.

Yeah. Then same as Kevin Bacon's hair and flatline. Yes.

You know, I. Yeah, that scene. And, you know, I say this a lot on the podcast, but there are just scenes and supporting actors that just have no business being as good as they are.

And that was one of them. The movies already, like, got me. And then they just, like, somehow in the last 15 minutes, kick it up another notch.

Yeah.

I'm like, holy, we're in a new gear now. And I love it when a. That's. That's one of the great indicators of a great movie is just, like, you. You're already in.

And then it's like, somehow they. Without making the movie over long or changing the believability.

Yeah.

Yeah. And the fact that Alonzo abandons them and that was his plan to kill him was like, you passed. You passed.

And he's trying to act like he didn't try to have him killed. I know this is a tough one. I. I relate to Sniper. I've never been in a fight.

And people tell me, though, they're like, I wouldn't want to get in a fight with you because I just think you're crazy. Like, I don't think you're. I don't think you're a good fighter, but, like, I'm dirty. No.

I just think, like, I'm the guy that would smash a beer bottle on my own head and let's go. You're like, maybe I don't want to fight this guy. I'm all. I'm all bark, basically. And I think that's kind of what Sniper is.

I think Sniper is probably actually a pansy.

Yeah.

But he's like, oh, shit, Booster, you.

Know, And I think we're compensating for.

Smiley is a guy that he's going to. He's going to be the business guy in prison.

Yeah.

He's going to be the one selling cigarettes, sneaking drugs in, somehow running, running. And you want to be on his good side.

Yeah.

Yeah. So Smiley.

That scene, such a good moment.

When I wrote this question down, it felt controversial. I'm going to compare it to another movie in my top 50. We talk a lot about movies that are very much the city they're in.

Yeah.

You know, Drive in L. A. Yeah. You know, flatliners in Chicago. What's the better LA movie? Two movies in my top 50. What's the better LA movie? Training Day or Heat?

I haven't seen Heat.

Oh, my God.

Neither of you've seen Heat?

Yeah.

So I can't answer that.

Oh, my God. Cancel the podcast. Cancel the podcast.

You've had a year to suggest it.

Is that the Melissa McCarthy movie?

No. Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, Al Pacino? The movie you're talking directed by Michael Mann. No.

Very different movie future.

Kyle, cut this from the podcast. Collateral? No. You. But you've seen Collateral.

No.

You've seen Collateral with you?

Yeah. For this. Yeah.

What's a synonymous LA movie?

Like, I mean, Drive. I see. Yeah. These, tonally, they're.

They show very different sides of LA that kind of would overlap in the Venn diagram, but, Yeah, I actually think I like this one a little better, like, just as far as its LA representation. Like, both really get the kind of, like, sweaty, dirty side of la, but Drive is definitely a little more neon, romanticized.

Yeah.

What's crazy is Denzel won the Oscar for this role.

Yeah.

For Best actor, But there was another movie and there was some. A little bit of. Or said tragedy. There was. There was a little bit of. God, what's the fucking word? Controversy. God dang it.

Russell Crowe for A Beautiful Mind didn't win, and there was a lot of controversy around that.

Same with Ian McKellen.

Oh, yeah.

Ian McKellen for Gandalf was up and he didn't win that.

That's Right. Lord of the Rings. Was. Was this the right Oscar that year?

You know, A Beautiful Mind is one of my favorite movies ever made. And. And Russell Crowe did some incredible stuff in that movie. This. It's a whole other level.

Like, I think in some ways it's a little easier to kind of play that fantastical version of the character that Russell Crowe played in A Beautiful Mind. Very well done movie. But the. His performance is not necessarily what sold that movie for me.

Denzel's performance in this is genuinely what sold so much of this movie. So I think it's justified. Also. Welcome Harrison Ford to the couch.

Hey, Harrison Ford. The cat. For those listening. What do you think, McKenna?

I haven't seen A Beautiful Mind. I'm apparently a pretty, like, shit film student. There's a lot I haven't seen.

You saw Lord of the Rings, though.

Of course.

Of course. Okay, so what's his name? Ian.

Ian McKellen.

What about versus Ian McKellen for the year?

I mean, probably Denzel. I mean, sure, Ian is incredible as Gandalf, but I don't know if it's necessarily an Oscar winning performance.

Yeah, I think if anything, he really shown more as Gandalf the Return of the King than he really did in Fellowship because he's only in Fellowship for half the movie.

But, yeah, Denzel.

Yeah, I think this is it. This is perfectly earned. And I think it's actually pretty incredible because a movie like this usually isn't an Oscar contention.

Yeah.

Because it's got action elements to it. It's a cop movie.

Very stripped down movie, too.

Yeah.

Like, it's. It's not the kind of. Because, yeah, you compare this movie to A Beautiful Mind, and A Beautiful Mind is. Is.

Is such larger scale, and it's a period piece and. And it hits on a very particular historical figure. Like, it has all of the makings of an Oscar bait, kind of.

We're kind of setting the stage for, oh, here's the formula to win an.

Oscar, which is the dumbest thing ever. Yeah. How can we make an Oscar?

Okay, we have to. We have to have Nazis and we have to have Jews. It has to be World War II. And it's.

Yeah, there's equal representation.

There's so many, like, sketches I've seen about how to make an Oscar winning movie.

Yeah, I think this is. Yeah, I just think this is so. And every time I watch it, I catch little things about his performance. Like even when he's not speaking, he's just.

And then like stopping in the middle of the intersection, making.

That was so good. That was so good.

I didn't know you like to get wet, though, Germ. And he names every name for. For PCP does.

Yeah.

Just incredible that.

See, that's why I. I rarely smoke things that strangers hand me.

No, don't do it.

Don't say no to drugs, kids.

Yeah, yeah. And PCP is a wild drug. Yeah. Like, that's the drug that. When cops shoot people eight times and they don't.

They don't move, like, they don't act like they've been shot. That's pcp.

Yeah.

So, yeah. Great for studying for exams though. Yeah. No distractions. Just kidding. Don't do drugs. Especially pcp. Alternate history question here.

How would this movie have been if Eminem played Jake Hoyt? Would it have been a cult classic or would it have been a disaster?

I think it would have been a disaster. I think he's too harsh to play that character.

If anything, I could have believed him more as Alonzo, but I could not in any way believe him as a newbie. Like you said, baby face rookie cop. That's. That's trying to do the right thing. Like, it just.

The only other person I think that might have been able to pull this off.

Well, and I know you kind of disagree with me, but Paul Walker, who was in the running for the role, I think could have pulled off a version of this character that would have been believable. It definitely would have been different than Ethan Hawke, but I think it could have worked.

Are we talking about Eminem playing against Denzel?

Yeah, if it was him instead. For. As J. Coy. Yeah.

Okay. When Denzel was on the project.

Yeah. Or if it was Eminem and Samuel Jackson together, then it's Rush Hour.

What a crazy movie.

Then it's literally Rush Hour. You might as well get Chris Tucker in there.

Eminem goes on PCP and just starts talking at a million words a second.

I gotta get this PCP attic off my plane.

I don't think I would have sympathized with his character as much if it had been played by someone a little more harsh. Like Eminem.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess. I. I also don't think it would have been a disaster.

Right.

But I think it would have just probably faded into obscurity.

Yeah.

It would have been a vastly different movie.

Yeah. I, I. For me just doing this podcast, Eminem's name comes up way too much for comfort to me.

We have covered so many movies in the last five years that Eminem randomly comes up. What they were going to consider Eminem or Eminem was like, one of the running top. I'm like, why?

I mean, he was.

What has he done?

He. He was the number one guy in music at the time.

I know, but.

And then, then 8 mile happened, and everyone was like, his performance was great, but like you said, he was playing himself, basically. Yeah.

It's awesome when you get to play yourself.

Yeah.

It's like, all right, you be Eminem. Everyone else, I'll give you your acting cues. You just keep being you.

Yeah, you.

You put your girlfriend in the trunk.

Weirdly, I think Machine Gun Kelly actually has more range than Eminem would have because I've seen him in a couple of projects, and he's actually not bad at all.

Yeah. And. And, well, that. This is actually the perfect segue into the. The other question is we. We have a lot of music cameos here.

Yeah.

And they are interesting. Let's talk about the worst. Was it Dr. Dre, was it Macy Gray? Or was it Snoop? Who. Who really plays the. The worst note here?

I don't think any of them stood out as bad for me.

No.

I thoroughly enjoy both Dre and Snoop. I don't. I don't know who Macy J is.

Macy Gray.

Macy Gray.

I try to say goodbye and I choke I try to walk away and I stumble and I try to hide it it's clear the whole world crumbles when you are not here. You don't know that song.

No.

Let's just review. Let's review the last 10. You don't know. You haven't seen Heat. You haven't seen Collateral. You. You don't know who Macy Gray is? Am I old?

Yes.

Yeah.

Oh, God, very.

I mean, I know of Macy Gray.

I've never heard the name.

I will say, though, she played the.

One with the warrant. Mason Gray is the one.

She played Sandman's wife.

Let me see that one.

Sandman's wife with a crazy name. Let me see. Let me see that warrant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

None of them stood out as bad. I loved every single one of them in their respective.

You didn't think Dr. Dre was awful?

Not at all.

Oh, I wouldn't say.

He's an actor. Yeah, but he's. He was fine for his role. He stand out he's like, awful. I, it's just kind of pleasant to see. Like, oh, It's. Hey, that's Dr. Dre.

Here's how it is for me. I think I put this movie in my top 50 because it belongs here. But then I think Dr. Dre and Macy Gray.

Horrible. Did great.

Snoop is great.

Yeah.

But Snoop is always great. And he was perfectly cast. And I love that eventually you find out that, you know, he put him in that wheelchair.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

How do you think he got in that wheelchair? But I, I don't know why, but this sounds like we experienced this two very different ways.

I actually think Dr. Dre and Macy Gray almost ruined this movie. Like, if I had to pick something.

I couldn't disagree more.

They're horrible. I don't know how Macy Gray's agent, like, there had to be other actors.

I think it kind of just played into. It played into all of the characterizations of the rest of the film.

It was kind of all, I guess it wasn't all overacted, but, like, it definitely complimented Denzel's overacting or I didn't, he didn't overact, but he was animated, you know?

Yeah. And I've, I've literally, I've met people that Maisie Gray reminded me of. So now I had no, I didn't think she was overacting at all.

I thought she was actually playing people that I have met in person before.

Yeah. Yeah.

So wild.

I, I feel like I did live.

In North Nashville for almost three years.

Yeah.

I, I, in, in some. Because that, that neighborhood is literally street by street.

Either you're living in a bunch of remodeled or brand new houses, or you're living in houses that have been run down since the 80s and people are still living there. Like, it's just. And, and yeah, literally, I, I, for two and a half, three years was around people like her.

Yeah.

That didn't feel out of the ordinary at all for me.

Me, I feel like Dr. Dre was cut and paste out of a completely different thing. I feel like they found an interview of him and cut him and paste into this movie.

I feel like he, like, the minute he starts talking, I'm like, he's in a different movie right now.

What other hip hop icon would you have preferred?

Oh, question back on you.

DMX.

DMX, yeah.

Rest in peace, Mr. Simmons. Ice tea. Ice Tea has proven to be at least he. Mean, he's had a long acting career.

Maybe. I guess if I'm thinking of his entire Filmography now and then. Him playing that maybe at a younger age. Could have been different.

I think, though, I might have found it funny.

Ice Tea.

Yeah.

Those two come to mind. I think DMX would have been awesome. And DMX was. I mean, he was supposed to be. Remember the crow?

Oh, yeah.

Wicked Prayer. He was supposed to be a lead in that. If he would have gotten that. Maybe. Or just an actor.

Yeah.

You know, I know Fuqua is a director of music videos, but maybe just an actor, right? Just any other actor.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe Dre just really wanted to be in a project of his.

Maybe. I mean, I love listening. I listened to Dre. I just. I don't know. That's kind of crazy. I kind of thought I came here, like, we're gonna. On Dre, but y'.

All. No, I didn't think it was.

Okay.

It didn't ruin the film or nearly ruin the film.

It wasn't. And I mean. Yeah. Like you said, it's not like an Oscar winning performance, but at the same time. No, it never took their movie.

Yeah. Yeah.

The. The part of it that took me out of the movie was just, oh, hey, that's Dre. I'm like, that was it.

Yeah.

Nothing with his performance.

Oh, that is Terry Cruz.

Yeah. I'll give you that. The cat. There's definitely a cachet there.

Yeah.

And I think because Dre has so much. Has so much cred in that world.

Yeah.

That it maybe was just, like, we just easily accept it because we know who Dre is.

Yeah.

So I can see that. I can see that. Okay, go ahead.

I'm realizing you said you were talking about iced tea. In my head, I was thinking ice cube.

Oh.

And I think no. Iced tea could probably do it and do it really well. Ice Cube. It would have been very funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now I know why I was like, why is she reacting this way?

No, sorry.

I don't know iced tea well enough to. To comment. And I don't even know if he was actually in the Rick and Morty episode, but the only context I have for him is. Is.

Is them making fun of him in. In Rick and Morty.

Yeah.

Because he turned. He's as ice tea. He's an alien. That is literally a tea made out of ice. But then once he, like, redeems Himself.

The ice breaks, and he becomes what he was truly meant to be. Water Tea.

Oh, my God. That is such an inside. That is some inside baseball, if I've ever heard it. That's. Yeah.

I mean, the irony of Ice Tea is he wrote the song Cop Killer, which was a huge controversy, and then he played a cop on CSI or whatever, some TV show for.

Well, wasn't that Ice Cube that was on csi?

Iced Tea? No, I think Ice Tea has his own cop show that's like. Csi.

Is it? Because I think Ice Cube is actually on csi.

No, Law and Order. Ice Tea is on Law and Order.

Okay.

Yeah. But LL Cool J, Another one. And then he has tons of acting cred.

I think he's a significantly worse actor, though, than Dre was.

Oh, he would have been better.

I don't think so.

I. I think every person I named DMX would have been better.

I think they would have been fine. I don't. I. But again, I'm coming at this. I don't think Dre did a bad job.

Have y' all seen Heat? Just getting. No, I'm just kidding with you. And lastly. All right, last question.

We always close out questions with who won or what won the movie for you? Who won or what? Or, sorry, who lost or what Lost.

I think I know who and what lost the movie for you.

I try to say goodbye.

Oh, my God. I think there really wasn't much that lost this movie for me.

Like, I thought the writing was outstanding, and I think that the thing that really sold the movie for me, weirdly, was actually Ethan Hawk in this. Like, I think if his character hadn't been perfect, it would have made Denzel feel weirder than he was. Like, it. It.

You had to get that balance and that dynamic perfect. Otherwise the rest of it would have fallen apart, no matter how good one or the other was. So I actually think Ethan Hawk kind of.

I'm not going to say saved, but really is what complemented what Denzel was trying to do. But, yeah, I really don't think anything lost the movie for me. I mean, I. I guess I just.

It is always tough to see, like, kids involved in, like, the violence that's on screen. But at the same time, it's like, it makes sense. Like, that's. It's.

Yeah.

The world certain people grow up in. So it's like, it. That was hard for me to watch. But again, I don't think there's really anything that lost the movie for me.

And then Alonzo uses his son as a bargaining Chip at the end of the movie, I was like, nice guy.

Yeah. Great guy.

Yeah. Nice little shotgun, though. Swivel under the bed.

Yeah, that was. That was.

That was kind of cool.

Really cool.

Yeah. What about you?

What lost for me was, I think, not the story. Not the story, but I guess the implausibility of, I guess, how it all went down.

I remember while it was happening, we had to pause the movie after they shoot. Shoot his friend and kind of make up the scene. Yeah. Forgetting the character's name. Roger.

Oh, yeah. Played by Scott Glenn from Silence of the Lambs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So after they had shot Roger and then all of that happening, we had to pause it so I could work out, like, okay, wait, how is this happening and how is this actually going to play out? Because it just did not seem plausible. It just was hard to believe that it would play out that way.

I don't know, like, you mean when they're, like, structuring the. Like talking about how he shot him in the door.

Yeah. And it's like, well, then why is the kitchen already dug up?

If you immediately run in and get shot and then the other guy gets shot and killed and then you went in and dug up the thing, but then didn't call back up as things were happening? Like, that's all.

Yeah. It gets a little convoluted.

Murky and convoluted.

And then the Russia thing becomes a bad.

Kind of like there. Yeah. I.

It's a tad rushed.

Yeah. Like acting.

Yeah.

It's a great. A very well acted movie. I could have done with a different. I don't know, a different plot. But also, like, it wouldn't be what it is.

You wouldn't have that betrayal in the turn without kind of that grandiose implausibility.

And the meeting with the wise men is the only time you see Alonzo not confident until he almost. Until he's about to get shot.

Yeah.

And whenever the ending, obviously, because his whole thing is unraveled. But it's the first time in the movie you see him not be the dominating.

Yeah.

Force. Like.

Yeah. You can tell he's the. In the room.

Yeah. And it's wild to me and Danzo, like. Like Denzel really plays that really well.

Definitely.

Yeah. I mean, he does everything well here, but that's interesting. And what won it for you?

The acting.

Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah.

What lost the movie for you, Kyle?

There are other actors and there are paid actors and people who act for a living, who aren't famous rap artists who could have played These roles. Yeah, I, I. So funny that, that we see that so differently. I think it's just a glaring flaw in an otherwise almost perfect movie. To me. I just.

Here's the thing. I also just have a thing about cameos, and maybe it's stupid. I would make this akin to your revenant thing about people almost getting killed.

I hate it. Now. Sometimes there are great cameos. Like Pete Yorn is randomly in that Martin Scorsese movie. Was the, Was the moon the killer moon.

The flower moon Killer, the flower Moon. Pete. YN's in it for like, three minutes, and he barely says anything. But Pete Yorn, that's how he is in real life. He's an incredible musician.

It's great. I loved it. And he was very. It was very brief. I just. Dr. Dre, I get too much time with him here, and I just.

There are lots of other actors I don't know now if they're going to do a cameo, like, do it, like, do a great job. And Snoop did a great job. In fact, Rando, that I didn't, that didn't make the final cut.

His fans made the filming very hard because his fans, there were hundreds of Snoop fans just waiting outside where they were filming because they knew Snoop was in there and they, sure, they had to, like, keep him off the barricade and, like, they had to, like, go away. We're. We're making a movie.

Yeah.

And so shout out to Snoop fans. This is pre Snoop Lion.

I forgot about that.

Does he go? Is he back to Snoop Dogg? Snoop Dogg? Yeah, Snoop. Snoop Lyons Mane.

Yeah.

For focus. Nootropic joke. But, yeah, so, But. Oh, I know. Now I feel guilty for, for hating it so much. But what won it? Oh, I mean, so much.

I. I just cannot believe Denzel. Every time I watch this, it's just never, it never loses its sheen to me.

I see instead of it getting old to me, I see just little new things that he does, whether it's his facial, his. His presence. There's just so much about this and the fact that it was just so controversial for him to take this role, and it ends up being.

It's his favorite role.

And there's another funny rando out there that his son at the time, I don't know if it was John David Washington, but one of his sons convinced him to take the role, and he won an Oscar for it. So his joke is that it's his favorite role because he won an Oscar, and so now his sons always help him vet his roles. Because he's like.

Maybe they're like his good luck charm. Hell, yeah. Which is cool.

He's had a great career. Book of Eli is incredible.

Yeah.

Like, it's definitely one of his best performances.

Flight.

Yeah.

Man on Fire.

Yeah.

Just. Yeah. Just the equalizer. Not so much, but just a ton. Yeah. Just one of the greatest. One of the greatest living actors. And this is his best role.

So I think it's him and his. A lot of people will say Malcolm X, but I. I think this is it. And. Yeah, that's. That's what won it for me. Yeah. Shall we close out with the War Zone?

Let's do this.

All right. Rapid Fire. We do four categories. We do cast, writing, directing, and the film composition.

And that includes the cinematography, editing, sound, stunts. All the things. All the mechanics.

Mise en you film students who know that that means setting the scene.

Yep. For all you Jim Morrison, UCLA people out there.

Yeah.

What do you think, Seth?

Yeah, it's. It's honestly just going to be yeses across the board acting. Everyone did a great job, including Dr. Dre and what's her name?

Macy Gray.

Macy Gray. I like them. They were great. This guy, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Writing, absolutely incredible.

The fact that you had stuff set up near the beginning that you didn't think was going to come back, but you also kind of figured it might, and then it did in the best way possible. And in a lot of ways, a very unexpected way that they came back around, I think is so good directing, clearly. This guy.

By the way, I think we need to shout out David Ayer, who did write this movie. This makes me believe that there is a good movie that he shot when he shot Suicide Squad, and that Warner Brothers completely ruined it.

So release the air. Cut. James Gunn. Oh, you heard it here.

Watch out when Seth gets into alternate cut territory.

But so good job. David Ayer. Great. Actually writing Filmography.

Yeah. And this kind of became his. His thing. Like he did end of Watch with Jake.

Yeah. So good.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

He was really great with this cop flavor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So directing, I think. I think Fuquan. That's his name.

Fuqua.

Fuqua. I think he did an incredible job. Helped really nail all the subtleties of what was going on that needed to be portrayed without feeling over the top.

The music really portrayed the mood so well. Like, everything about it was amazing. So it's yeses across the board for me.

Bam. It's a good day for movies.

It is.

What do you think, Dr. Dre?

Okay.

I.

Directing. My overall impression of the film is that, sure, it is a well made film and good.

But I don't know if I would, like, write home about it or if I would ever watch it again. Just out of enjoyment.

Like saying you're an idiot for having.

Your top 50. Who are you writing at home about this movie in Jacksonville? People just pining. People just pining for that letter. I think she finally watched Training Day. She put a Denzel stamp on the envelope.

My dearest Rhonda, I watched Training Day.

Today, and although it's well made, I wouldn't say it's anything to write home about, which is why I'm writing you at home.

I hope this letter finds you better than this film found me.

Like the cinematography, I guess didn't. Nothing stood out to me stylistically, I guess as much. I guess it's just the acting.

Sure.

And I. I'm also, like, just not a huge crime film.

Girl, you. You want real crime, not this fake crime. Yeah.

I watch documentaries about crime, but, like, I just don't really care for cop dramas.

Yeah. All white girls do.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. All white girls love crime dramas. I don't know why. That's why they write serial killers letters in prisons.

Yeah.

Yeah. Not you, of course. You're writing letters to home.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So you're gonna go. No. I don't know why, but I'm kind of cheering for you to go. No. We've had a really positive day. I feel like somebody needs to be on besides Dr. Dre.

I mean, it's kind of hard to. On this movie because it is. It is a good movie, but I think it's lacking kind of in story and writing, perhaps, like dialogue. Yeah.

And it's again, I think, though, that's probably just the acting.

Yeah. Go no.

Holy. It's gonna happen.

I don't know what I would go no on.

Right.

I guess.

I guess let's take it as a cast we think about.

Yes.

Big yes. Okay. Writing.

Yeah. It was good cast. Writing.

No.

Squeak under A squeak under. No.

Okay.

It's not a full on.

Yeah.

Directing Antoine Fuqua again.

Good. Squeak over. Yes. I guess nothing. It's not a film where I would see It. And be able to identify, like, that's. That's a Fuqua film.

Fair. Fair.

And granted, I have probably haven't seen other. Many others of his films.

Yeah.

But it doesn't feel very distinct to me. So a touch on her.

No.

A touch on her?

No.

Okay, okay.

Like, cinematography, like, composition of a composition of the frame. Like, I mean, it was very real and gritty, I guess. Very, very realistic and, like, grounded in realism.

But, I mean, a lot of that definitely came from shooting in actual, like, gang spots. Right.

And which I appreciate. I appreciate. The location. I appreciate. Yeah. The hiring and. Or at least appear of gang members or just people of la.

Yeah. So that's just like split decision.

Didn't really vibe with the film. Yeah, it's good.

I get it. I get it. So split decision.

I don't totally understand why it's in your top 50.

If you heard the rest of the top 50, it would make way more sense.

You have no idea. I've got art films, action films.

Isn't RoboCop your number one?

Number one, yeah. But taxi drivers, my number three. Goodfellas is my number two.

Good fellows, because Choice.

Yeah.

So great choice.

You can't just nail me down to one film, man.

He hated Tin Tin, so we know he's all sorts of messed up.

I liked Tin Tin, but I probably will never watch it again.

Yeah, well, they would have put Dr. Dre in it. It would have been much better, apparently. All right, so split decision. Yes. And then I'll do mine. Cast. Fantastic. Until you get to the cameos.

Except for Snoop Dogg. It almost takes me out of it, but Dan, Denzel and Ethan just deliver here. My favorite.

Honestly, though, if I had to take Denzel out of it as Smiley, as played by Cliff Curtis and Raymond Cruz as Sniper, I thought that scene was just incredible. The shower part, all of it. The callback to earlier. I thought they crushed it. So the cast is a definite yes.

Yeah.

Writing, I think. I think the character of Alonzo is very convincing. I think there's a lot of. It is over the top and. But I love it. I'm just. It's. It's a feast.

And they, you know, the actor has to have something great to say and has to have something great to do. And I think what was written for these actors is really enticing. I think it moves. I think it's a page turner.

I could see why someone would read this script and think, damn, we need to make this, because you'll hear a lot of great actors a Lot of great producers will say that the first thing that has to happen when they decide to invest in a script is it has to make me want to turn the page.

Yeah.

If I don't want to turn the page, that's a problem. And this is. I think, when you read this on paper, like, damn, this is a page turner. And I think it translates to the screen in terms of directing.

You know, Fuqua didn't do a lot of. He did Emancipation Equalizer, Southpaw, the Magnificent Seven, but, you know, he hasn't done anything as heavy as this. Right. In terms of a.

If it's success.

Yeah. But a lot of Denzel, he seems to be very good friends with Denzel.

Likes Denzel, likes working with him. I think he made all the right decisions here, though. I think. I think he came out of the gate with something fantastic here.

I know it's not your genre, but as someone that appreciates this type of film, I think it's. I just love it. And coming from a narcotics officer home, like, a lot of it I relate to. And I see it, I'm like, that's. That's not too far from it.

Like, I was like, you know, every cop I meet is like 10 degrees. You know, the Kevin Bacon thing, six degrees of becoming a crooked cop. You know what I mean?

I will say, I forgot to bring this up with writing.

I did love the callback of when he was, like, basically trying to say the news headline for Hoyt and be like, cop, Rookie Cop found Dead, blah, blah, blah. And then it was the exact same thing, but for him.

Yeah.

The actual news broadcast. That was really cool.

That was cool.

Great moments of foreshadowing.

Yeah.

Yes.

And callbacks and all that. I just. I think story. I didn't love the characterization. Great.

Yeah. In terms of composition, I think I agree with you that this was an interesting time for cinematography.

Yeah.

We did Collateral, which Collateral was only. Was what, just a few years earlier and it was later. Oh, a few years later. So we haven't even gotten to digital yet.

Yeah.

So, you know, if we're analog and it's some of the things like the PCP vision, the green, and there's a lot of things happening here, and I love. I love them chasing Snoop Dogg. I love how it moves. The camera moves. I think they're. They're capturing a lot of interesting stuff here.

And I think the. The soundtrack could have either been too on the nose or perfect, and I think it was perfect. Like the rock superstar thing.

I think now that song Kind of is like, a bit much for me. But then imagine yourself then, and that song comes on in a movie. Yeah, it's like, that was a banger because that music video was.

This is back on MTV when they had the top five music videos, you know, and that was on there for weeks, man. Carson Daly was like, bam.

Yes. And Chronic, the Chronic record from Dre was such a big deal. Yeah, it was such. Everybody in my school had it in their CD player, walking around.

I mean, dude, it was that CD that was a huge deal. Like, I can't. Even if you weren't alive then. I'm not trying to sound like an old guy. I cannot tell you how big of a deal the fucking Chronic was.

Oh, yeah.

And I think some of the choices of music maybe haven't aged as well, but I remember then thinking, yep, I know why they picked that song.

Yeah.

But, yeah, overall, I give this the strongest of a. Of a 4, minus Dr. Dre and Macy Gray.

Yeah, there you go.

Well, that was a lot of fun. We finally got a little negativity in the room from our film student here. Now, we were so glad to have you crushed it here.

And usually we have our comedians tell people where they can see them, but I don't know if you want people to come see you or find you or.

Please leave me alone.

Leave her alone.

Come to one of my shows. She might be there with me.

Yeah, leave her be, Harrison Ford. What about you, buddy?

Oh, he's. He's perfectly happy never leaving the house.

Come up on the couch.

No, this is the first. He's actually. Yeah, welcome, welcome. Harrison Ford in the actual podcast. Not just messing with the curtain over there.

Now he's staring at me because he's like, why are you talking about me, bro?

The star of Indie Mana Jones.

Oh, my God.

That was a. That was dad joke.

Yeah, The Patriot.

Oh, stop it.

And on that note.

Yeah, Yan Solo.

Oh, my God.

We're done.

That's Kyle. I'm Seth. That's McKenna. Thanks for being here, y'. All.

Thanks for training with us.