My guest on today’s episode, Paul Teske, is the epitome of following your passions that lead to new learning experiences. His open mind, different way of thinking, and ability to use both his creative and analytical side has provided him with different opportunities in his life. He’s sharing how all of his learning experiences resulted in his current endeavor of being the founder of a consultant group, Education Impact Exchange.

Throughout our conversation, it was clear that one of the things Paul finds most interesting is asking the big questions surrounding education. He believes that learning experiences are everywhere and restructuring or reinventing educational concepts is the key to change. With that idea in mind, he utilizes his abilities of being creative and thinking analytically to enrich his learning experiences and how you can do the same.

For all links and resources mentioned in this episode, head to the show notes: https://www.educatorforever.com/episode40

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Lily

Paul Teske has been in education for over 25 years and has had a variety of professions, teacher, researcher, program design and development and now entrepreneur. He has worked in the classroom in edtech, and professional learning.

Lily

And currently he's founder of a consulting group called Education Impact Exchange that provides coaching, content, research and training centered on student learning and teacher and administrator professional development, with a special emphasis on promoting culturally and linguistically sustaining practices.

Lily

Hi, Paul, so nice to have you here.

Paul

Hi, Lily, how are you today?

Lily

I'm good. Well, I know that you've had a interesting journey in education. So I'm wondering, I know, this is a big question. If you can walk us through your journey as an educator.

Paul

Okay, this is gonna take about an hour of your podcasts.

Lily

I'm kicking back, I'm into it.

Paul

I'm not sure they will be. Edit this. Anyway. So mine started, gosh, right after my BA I went back to my hometown to see if I want to take over my parents business. It was small mining town in northern Minnesota. And I sort of connected with teachers that I was working with, you know, back in the day, and they said, Hey, do you want to direct the play? And I was like, Sure.

Paul

Paul

It's beautiful, beautiful building. So how can you say no to like directing at a stage like that even had one of those old Oregon's you know, that can do you thunder lightning? Cool. We didn't do that sort of thing.

Lily

I thought you were playing the whole thing around it.

Paul

No, no. Nothing like that. Anyways, I did that I did knowledgeable, which is sort of like Team Jeopardy. I think they played in bars now. Yeah, those types of things. And then I went away and I got my I was like, No, I'm not going to take over the business.

Paul

And so I entered grad school. I got my master's in English. And then I got hooked up with the education department. And they're like, well, Paul's kind of cool. Maybe he could be an advisor. And so I got that paid for I got my certification paid for by being an advisor in the program. Nice and had fun doing that was just a blast.

Paul

Then I moved out to while I was doing that, too. I taught at a community college in St. Paul, I taught grammar, they hired me to teach grammar, only grammar, huh, for three hours, once or twice a night a week, you know, so it was like professionals that would come in. And the the student body was super interesting. I had everything from like 18 year olds to 80 year olds. This old grandma came in.

Paul

Editors come in to the thing you know, and I was like, wow, I have editors. And my whole thing was, you know, you need to write as well as learn, you know, the grammar of it. And they sort of protested and afterwards they like I understand why you did that now. And I also taught literature and things like that. So while I was going through school, I had these experiences.

Paul

And also, I was doing work at a chiropractic college putting on postgraduate programs. So I was planning conferences and stuff like that. So I got education from a number of perspectives sort of classroom as well as programmatic and organizational. And I think that was kind of unique, and that's carried with me all the way through my career. Because after I moved out to Washington State after I got my degree, I taught up in Everett, Washington, and that was interesting and might go in that later.

Paul

But then ended up doing ed tech work where I worked for when I was a teacher, they they said we need to try out this new product and it was called Renaissance Learning or AR a lot of people used it back in the day. I think it was like 75% of the schools. Yeah. And so I was a ninth and 10th grade teacher. So I used it. I was like, I don't think this really works for that age group. It's like it just does it.

Paul

But I saw an ad in the paper, and there was an opportunity for me to move away from my current relationship. I could apply for this job in Oregon. So I applied for it, I got it. And it was partly because of my knowledge of six trait writing. Remember six traits?

Lily

Yeah, remember six traits.

Paul

Right? Yeah, it was really it was kind of cool. I mean, I like it in parts. It's not all of writing, but it's a good part of writing, right? It's like writing and understand it. So they hired me, because of that knowledge, they want to develop AW, accelerated writer, oh, and I spent a fair amount of time developing that product, I was part of the research and development team down in Hood River. And we sort of did these little projects for a much larger company to sort of see how they played out in classrooms.

Paul

So I was working with students, sometimes sometimes I'd work with teachers. I was doing early research, you know, around, how's it been taken up? What sort of interface issues are there? So everything from qualitative work, and then I also worked with a psychometrician while I was there, because we got into item development even.

Paul

Paul

Yeah, interesting, very early stuff, where we were combing texts for specific grammatical instances in a density within passages because we wanted to, to look at those passages and and how they were formed, and then put them in product. So it was interesting, it was really interesting work. And with time, though, I was noticing that professionally, there just wasn't a lot of growth there.

Paul

Because I was at a little site, I wasn't at the big company site in Wisconsin. And he's sort of feel marginalized. Now, that would have been great for some people. But after a while, I was like, this is just not for me, and hood rivers, gorgeous little town and all the rest of that. But during my 30s, I thought, Gosh, I need a little bit more of my career than this. And I was starting to miss the classroom, and working with kids more.

Paul

So me and my new partner. I started graduate school, I closed out my work at Renaissance, even though it was interesting, where it was very interesting work. In retrospect, I worked with standards. You know, before the Common Core, a lot of the companies just as an aside, were looking for the commonality between standards across states. So they wouldn't have to, like, make tons of 50 sets of content, right? Absolutely. Yep.

Paul

And so I worked on a project where we tried to find the common denominator between all the standards. And I came back up to Seattle, and then I entered grad school, because I thought there I can work with students some more through research lens. And I also worked that at a place called Technology Access Foundation. And there was their K8 program manager.

Paul

And that was an after school program. And they were starting to actually create in school programs too around Project Based Learning and Technology, along with weaving in Washington state standards. And I worked there for a few years. And then we had our son, and I had to regroup. And since I was in grad school, I started working in the teacher education program as their tech instructor.

Paul

Over time, I was called into a grant funded project called Educurious and develop PBL units that infuse the Common Core based on the common core as well as had gaming architecture associated with them. And that was really cool work. I loved that work and started working for Educurious then at the close out of my graduate degree, my dissertation was based on it, it was based on feedback from experts in the field to students. So I looked closely at that.

Paul

And then eventually I got in at teaching channel. Part of it was Pat Wasley, who we both met, who was really a wonderful mentor to me all the way through it. So I ended up at teaching channel and being a program manager. So I was working with districts throughout the country, and eventually became their VP. And then they privatized and then sold themselves to another company. And then I left and that I started my own company, and here I am today as an educational consultant.

Lily

Amazing. I love that. And I love hearing the parts that I didn't know about this story. I didn't know about the Hood River part, and how that kind of fits into it. But it's interesting hearing about all the different parts and I can see connections between them. And I'm wondering if you can tell us kind of how are all these parts connected? Or how do you see them as being connected?

Paul

Part of the technology has definitely played a thread right in, in my career, I decided early on to lean into that space. Because I really loved working with kids around technology. I was I was in the computer lab with them doing interesting things beyond just typing up papers. It was more project-y in nature.

Paul

And so I have an artistic side, which I think sort of comes out in in each one of these spaces, as well as an analytical side, which comes out in these spaces. And I like data. And I think if you find these core little things about yourself that you appreciate, and you get excited about, like oh data, or oh story, or oh, this or oh, or it's, you got to lean into those spaces and pay attention to them.

Paul

And that's what I did, I sort of rode my career through education to those points, I think. And the other part to it was also video video ended up playing a huge role in my work and still does is starting to percolate up again, with my consulting.

Paul

In fact, with doing learning labs, it's interesting how these things never die, they just sort of continue on because they act as sort of beacons or pin points throughout your career. Or at least I found that in mine, I've been lucky enough to have that opportunity.

Lily

Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean, I like thinking about that, too, of like, That's you, right. And so of course, it will kind of travel and go with you into these different opportunities. And especially that creativity part like I've been thinking about that more and more in curriculum work, and just working in education.

Lily

And I know working in teaching channels together, like you are always doing amazing, creative things and getting people engaged in different ways. And I'm wondering if you can kind of talk about like, how does creativity and maybe the analytical side too like, how do they kind of come up in your work?

Paul

It's funny, because so much of my background, it's kind of unicorny, right? Somebody called me a unicorn once and I said, you're right, I am a unicorn.

Lily

I agree.

Paul

A big, colorful unicorn. But what I find is, when I'm talking with folks, the creativity side comes out. And that's where I'm placed. And sometimes it's sort of irritating, actually. Because my research part of me and my analytical side gets eclipsed. So if there's some thing that needs to be made, and we don't have a graphic designer, guess who does it? Sure, it's me.

Paul

And it's not that I don't love that. We're not the only thing. And after a while, after you sort of mastered the style, because what I really love are the puzzles of, of, let's say, branding, for example, how do you, how do you bring in that artistic side, within the confines of a brand, for instance? Or within the confines of a set of research?

Paul

You know, yeah, I'm dealing with that. Right now, I'm working with this group called the Steve Fund, they help with mental health of young bipoc students in college as well as early career. And they have a certain set of brands and they want to do micro units. And so, you know, they give me their branding kit, but then you're in a tool, you know, this analytical with all these constraints.

Paul

So you need to sort of push their brand this way or push their way. And that's, it's interesting, like they use, I used flowers on their main website, they have lots of flowers, but they're doing these for a business, they plan on selling this as part of their revenue stream. And I put it in there, and it was some punchy language, and they're like, Ooh, I'm not sure how the business community is going to respond.

Paul

It is funny to watch. So after all, that's gone and it's just sort of producing of creativity, you know, like you use your creativity to produce something again, and again and again. Then I get kind of bored. And I'm like, let's tap my research side. You know, so there's always this sort of back and forth, and I sort of have to direct it in the way and nudge it in the way that I want it to go. Sometimes it feels out of balance. Oh yeah. I need to like being to researchy too after a while you're like uhh.

Lily

Yes, absolutely. You need the creativity. I mean, you need both parts. I mean, I think for some of us, me included, you know you need both parts like I majored in English and math in college for that reason, you know, and I still see myself doing both sides of work too of like some very structured not creative, some more like open ended creative.

Lily

And I think I struggle with that too of like finding the right balance. And so I think it's for me, like every work, every project I do, or all the work I do is like also an exploration of just like, what works for my brain right now. And where am I using it the best?

Paul

What works for my brain right now? Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you're trapped in the wrong side your brain for a couple of weeks. Faith that you get out of it.

Lily

Exactly. So tell us about the work you're doing now.

Paul

Oh, the work that I'm doing now. So I when teaching channel sold to the other company, I worked there for a year, I didn't love it. And I was eventually laid off, potentially because of my own. It wasn't anything to do with me. Let's just be honest, there aren't kidding. I'm sure it was a little me a little them. You know, it just wasn't working out.

Paul

And so it's like, what do I do now? I sort of took the summer off, I went swimming a lot, read, probably scrolled a lot. I don't know, whatever people do when they get laid off. I did a lot of arts and crafts, though. And a friend of mine who was a nurse said, given your background, I'd really like you to come in, she did nurse training.

Paul

And we do simulation work, she says then I would like you to see like for see if you had anything to add to what we do is getting a little dull. So I was like, okay, but I don't know anything about nursing. And I said, Well, what's the topic? Is there a topic we can gravitate towards? And she goes, it's on birthing. And I was like, I really don't know why. Don't know what I can give you.

Paul

And she goes, Well just come and I said, If I don't give you anything, you don't have to pay me, you know, if I don't give you anything of merit. So I went and it was a birthing simulation, there was like a plastic pelvis and the little recessive baby. And my friend was playing the mother, she was sort of screaming and the nurses were coaching her.

Paul

And all of this, I was like, This is crazy. I never knew this existed. Just nuts. And as I talked to them, and as I watched, though, coming from learning, I consider myself kind of a learning scientist rather than a PhD with education. And educational psychology is where I have my degree. So I like looking at learning. And I like looking at the dynamics behind learning whether it be little kids or adults, I think it's fascinating to look at.

Paul

So I walked away going this is really curious, because it just seemed like chaos, right? And I said, so what about communication? She goes, Well, you know, communication is one of the biggest things in hospitals around lawsuits. Usually, when you have a lawsuit, the stem is a breakdown in communication. It's not a breakdown in skill or knowledge or anything like that. It's around communication.

Paul

And it was really interesting to look at the power dynamic between the doctors in the room, there's two and the nurses in the room. Sure. And also, there's a shifting dynamic that's happening in medicine, where doctors need to verbalize what they're doing. It's almost like they're needing to, what did they call that? Think alouds in, they call it things.

Paul

Where I'm putting my hand and I'm turning the baby to the left in order to get the blah, blah, blah, instead of something like, scalpel scalpel, right, like we were using and these soap opera movies. Yeah. No one's saying anything. It's highly tense. So here's dabbing in the forehead. Absolutely. I'm sure there's some of that goes on.

Paul

But what's going on is being processed your process, you're mentally processing out loud. And that you can see how there's a power shift there with that. And if you're going into situations in which there's bad communication, they didn't know that. So I gave them some inventories, to provide folks either before they went or during the thing so they can then talk about how they communicate as a group.

Paul

And then the other thing, of course, came back to video is like, you really need to video, the conversation that's going on in the room because it's happening so fast. And you have some people standing back like in terror. They're like some of the nurses faces while this was a grind, they're like you could tell that, you know, the pain of the whole thing. But it was it was an interesting thing. That's a long story.

Lily

No, it's so fascinating. I've never thought about any of this before. But yeah, keep going.

Paul

And I was like, well, that's a gig, right? And then we then I moved in there was a client that I had when I was at teaching channel that wanted to continue the work but not with them. Because they didn't choose the tool that teaching channel had and I said I'll gladly help you out. They wanted to go digital with their work.

Paul

So I guided them it was Seal Sobrato out of California. They do multilingual learning and dual language programming down there. They're nonprofit. And so I said, Let me guide you through that. So we've developed design principles around their content and who they want it to be online for that learning.

Paul

We went through numerous tools, we did inventories of different tools, compare them, decide if we need to SCORM files in order to reach a greater audience. So a lot of tech stuff, right. And then I got one out of Alabama, they were like, we really want to do something in this space with you. And I was like, great. And so we did some stuff there. And then COVID hit.

Paul

And then I got more stuff because people needed to go into online spaces, and they didn't know how to do it. So I had a few districts come to me and asked me to guide them into that. And we went through a week long series, Sarah Brown Wessling actually came in and did some of work, too. So that was during COVID.

Paul

And then also, I started getting business accounts, too, because businesses also want to reach out to teachers, but teaching profession and teachers are a culture unto themselves. And they didn't know how to do it. So Prezi brought me in to help develop their Prezi educator community and their certification program. So I developed that and still do work for them.

Lily

Like being a teacher, translator or something.

Paul

It's totally being a teacher translator. And it's surprising to me that more companies don't have roles like that.

Lily

Yeah, I mean, you need it. Absolutely. I mean, it's a whole different set of lingo and lifestyle, all the things.

Paul

Well, you can tell when a company hasn't.

Lily

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, a bunch of apples in their marketing.

Paul

I was like in their back to school campaign. I said, No apples. No pencils. No school bus. It's kind of funny to think about. But you know, I think that's part of the deal that that educators can bring to groups like this, whether it be tech groups, an education and learning happen everywhere.

Paul

If you think about learning in the DMV, and you're like, How does anyone without any knowledge of the English language navigate this space? Or with limited English? Absolutely. How does it make you feel even as an English speaker? Can you make sense of this space?

Paul

I think all of government should be revised through a an educator lens or a learning lens. The group that I love most with learning is IKEA, actually, because you can just open those things up. And you can figure you know, that's simple learning. And I'm sure they they consulted with education and psychologists to be able to figure those things out.

Paul

So anyway, now I have a group and we also do multilingual learning and training my own group here in Washington State. And then I still do technology projects for nonprofits like the Steve Fund that wanted micro learning. So it's a bunch of stuff.

Paul

And I'm probably going to start putting those two things, unpacking them a bit, because we're starting with my MLL and dual language programming group, to develop a certain style around how we're working, that isn't really connected with the rest of my work. And I want to, I want to give it its own branding.

Paul

Yeah, as a business owner, you're constantly thinking about how you want to position yourself, what you have the capacity for what you want, you know, what your people that you're working with, have capacity for because I work with other consultants, I don't hire full time employees. Not yet, anyway. That seems like a big step and like five years out to me, but you do what you can do, then you try to have as much fun doing it as you can.

Lily

Absolutely, absolutely. So thinking about all these different things that you do and doing so many different interesting things. What excites you about what you're seeing out there in education?

Paul

I really think AI is cool stuff. You like it, too?

Lily

I am. I'm fascinated by it. Yeah.

Paul

It is fascinating. And having worked in it before, I got even more excited when I started seeing what it could do. And I've always wanted to bring it into my research, because of how quickly you can do things. Back when you were when I was doing qualitative research, for instance, you would translate your own stuff or have it sent out and pay someone to do it. Now you can have it done pretty darn quickly through an app. Right? Yeah.

Paul

So you've accelerated it by tenfold that work, the work around summaries of meetings, and being able to keep track of where you are in something, as a group collectively is fascinating to me. And I, I think there's a point where it's great as somebody that is creative and loves the creative process and what it brings forth in you. All of those AI tools can do similar things. It's just a matter of taming them in the appropriate way.

Paul

And so it doesn't become necessarily a replacement for kids, tapping that inner core of their creativity, but rather another thing in their toolbox in order to be able to be creative. Yes. I think that's fascinating.

Paul

And I spoke at a conference around it about multilingualism and technology. And I put some different passages up. And I asked Chat GPT to create a really hard science passage for me, that was really high in readability, because I wanted them to feel like the struggle that new learners feel.

Lily

I would feel that too reading this passage. Yeah.

Paul

Right. But I gave it to them in Spanish first. Nice. Which was really kind of fun. And it was interesting to see what they picked apart. Like, you know, some were looking for the cognates. And others were looking because they had Spanish in the past the little words, the connector words, and then they try to piece it together.

Paul

And I think language is super fun that way is when it becomes a puzzle, rather than a grammatical game, absolutely, or a right and wrong or whatever. And that's something as an English teacher, I wish that there was more of as that linguistic push towards things, I don't think we're gonna see that anytime soon. But it's something that my own style and brand of, of learning and teaching is.

Paul

So AI is one space. I've been wondering a lot about the deconstruction of the school day, as well as the school year as well as the week. And I'm not sure it's going to be sustainable anymore to have a five day work week, work week as well as school week really are they go together? And how more community driven efforts can fill that space?

Paul

I think that could be a very interesting thing to think about anyway, those are the types of things I'm thinking about now is kind of these broad, sort of really pushing the space in a different way, rather than another way to do science of reading. I'm not thinking that.

Lily

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm into the way you're thinking, you know, thinking big questions about how we could restructure things or reinvent things or look at things with a different perspective, I think sometimes people can get very stuck in those littler questions, you know. And so it's interesting thinking more broadly.

Paul

If you're part of a system that is constantly reacting, then it's really hard to respond in a way that changes things. And that's the thing that I see all the time is that people are just overwhelmed by the system. Yes. And rather than standing back and saying, let's try it a different way, without considering it just another new thing. Right? It doesn't have to be that way.

Paul

And I think the leaders of education is where I would love to see more changes around leadership, instead of leading from the top leading from within, that would be a lovely shift to see. And I think it would solve a lot of problems.

Lily

Absolutely. Me too. As I'm thinking about leaving with, from within and kind of teachers moving beyond the classroom. What advice would you give for teachers who might be thinking about experimenting with working beyond the classroom or trying using their skills in different ways?

Paul

Well go forward without fear and, and embrace risk, a little bit in dabble in areas that you think would be productive to you. Ask yourself, what are the things that bring joy to you? Where are your curiosities? And lean into those spaces in relation to your practice.

Paul

And then, if that takes you out of your practice, Fear not. There are always places in which you can be a teacher, and be an educator. Like I said, learning happens everywhere. It really does. And I think sometimes we start thinking that learning only happens in school in K 12, or in universities, it doesn't have happens everywhere. And to be able to see that and then tap the passions that you have is to do that well. I think we talked about that before. Is there something more to that question?

Lily

No, I think that's great. I mean, I keep thinking about your example with the doctors and nurses, you know, of just like, Oh, that's so learning, right? And you're using your education background to help them in that context. And that there are so many ways exactly like you said, you know, that you can be a teacher and always bring that background.

Lily

And I also really like how you said dabbling. Like, it doesn't have to be like, Oh, I'm gonna start my little new career tomorrow. And it has to be 100% great. And like, I'm going all in. It's great to dabble and to learn through that dabbling. Like, I'm interested in this or I'm not interested or I feel like I'm good at this, or this is really hard for me, like all of that you learn by doing it.

Paul

Yeah. I went to a graduation party yesterday. Uh huh. And there's, you know, the certain kids that are going off to university and they're going to their highfalutin schools, which I never went to, and then there's, you know, another kid, who graduated last year, and he took the year off to sort of dabble.

Paul

And where he's dabbling is fascinating. He started apprenticing with a guitar maker. And he's starting to make guitars. Awesome. And that's where he wants to go in his career now is in the production of guitars making guitars. And I just find that so cool that he found that, yes.

Paul

And I would think that folks who even have careers that dabbling, that sort of investigation and query is just really beneficial and actually really motivating. Absolutely. That's where the creativity and motivation come together. That's what I talked about in my I teach a grad class in the fall around Tekken. arts integration. It's not an island word. It's a cool little place. Oh, yeah. I learned what school it is.

Paul

And the grad students live out there. This is a plug for Island woods. So if anybody wants to go through an environmental educator program, maybe I do. They live out there in the woods. But I talked to them a lot about motivation, creativity, and innovation and school systems and that sort of thing. We have conversations about this.

Lily

Yeah, that's awesome. That's cool about the guitar apprenticeship, too. I mean, it makes me think about also the importance of just like apprenticeships, learning from people who know how to do the thing you want to do and like studying under them. That could be in school that could not be in school, right? And that it can be kind of a similar model or a better model doing the apprenticeship sometimes.

Paul

Yeah. You know, this summer, also, I'm taking a pottery class. Yeah, I don't really do this sort of thing. I wanted to destress a little bit. So yeah, this will slow me down. And it's been a while since I've been in a classroom like that. We're a studio base where you have people working on their own things, that you sort of gain things from other people in that space.

Paul

There is a lead instructor that sort of shows you a few things and says go at it. Inevitably, there's failure and quite ugly things that are made. Sure. But it was it's kind of cool being in there and seeing the variety of people in there. And the people in there. And this sort of space for expression is really helpful, I think.

Lily

Yeah. And it's a process, you know, anything you're doing, it's not going to be great the first time, right? Like, if I wanted to a pottery class, I can guarantee you that the first thing I made would be really ugly, and pretty much anything else, right, like, but you're trying the first time, it's not gonna be great. So I think it's like, also the perspective of things being a process and learning being a process.

Paul

I think that's been forgotten, honestly. There's been so much push for final product and summative assessments and things like that. Mm hmm. That you would love to see it be the honoring a process?

Lily

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I like the idea of like, a fine. I'm like rolling my eyes at final assessments, because the idea is like, then you're just not going to learn that thing anymore. Yeah, I did my final assessment, I've like had my performance of understanding. Now I'm gonna put it on the shelf and like, move on.

Lily

Like, I don't think that's the best way to learn. It's like, take what you've learned before, and then move forward into the next thing you're exploring.

Paul

It pushes so many kids out. Absolutely. Think about language learning, for instance. So I was watching my son learn Chinese, which is really difficult language. And through a series of events, he wasn't doing so hot. And there was this sort of the new teacher came in, because he's not doing well, I suggested he take it over again next year.

Paul

And I was like, he's only halfway through the year. Yeah. How do you know? And what became clear to me is that he'll never take up Chinese again now. After this, sort of like you failed, yes. This year, you, you kind of stink at it. So let's, let's just replay that next year again. How willing would you want to be to do that? And we do this all the time? Absolutely. Do this all the time.

Lily

Go back through this traumatic experience over and over.

Paul

And what you don't love education in the end? Oh, what your taxpayer you don't want to pay for education in the end? Absolutely. You know, I get it.

Lily

I do too. I mean, yeah, again, like so many structures are I mean, everything is built towards that though. Right. So it's like how do you reimagine and create new ways, you know, or at least support kids within that system to to realize that's not the only way or the best way to learn.

Paul

Is that right? Yeah.

Lily

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Paul, for sharing about your story and everything else. It's always great to talk with you.

Paul

It was delightful. This is fun. Way better than first podcast I did around leadership where I said I'm not a leader. I don't know why you're interviewing me.

Lily

I mean, that sounds amazing too, but this was great. Can you tell people how they could connect with you?

Paul

Sure, I am on Facebook. But I'm going there less and less. It's primarily LinkedIn, which I find odd. Now, I used to hate LinkedIn,

Lily

it's gotten better. I used to hate it too.

Paul

The psychological mess that's going through my head when I'm on LinkedIn. And I know a lot of educators aren't on LinkedIn, but it's useful to be there. And you should be there. So please be there. But I'm also on Instagram. You can find me there. Although I really cut back on social media to be frank. I really have reduced it.

Lily

That's great. I think that's good.

Paul

You know, the pandemic hit and I had so much anxiety and anger. It was not good.

Lily

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Don't think too much social media is good for very many people. You know, it's good to have limits. Absolutely. And then you have a website for your business.

Paul

Thank you for reminding me of that. Yes, we do. I have Education Impact Exchange is the name of it. It's ed-exchange.net. You can find me there. And we're going to roll out a new website probably in the next couple of months.

Paul

And then also, I do a lot of work with neuraleducation.org. I've been helping lead them they do application of neuroscience into the classroom. If you write them, I see it too. I develop their website and some of their processes. So both spots, you can find me.

Lily

Wonderful. Well, thanks again, Paul.

Paul

It was nice to see you, Lily and thank you for inviting me on your show.

Lily

Absolutely.