Abdallah Anwar, known affectionately as AB, joins us this week on Walk and Roll Live to share his profound journey as an individual living with cerebral palsy. In this enlightening discussion, we delve into the intersections of mobility, independence, and personal growth, as AB recounts his experiences transitioning from Saudi Arabia to the United States. His narrative highlights the challenges he faced, including navigating educational systems and the complexities of employment as a disabled individual. AB's commitment to bocce ball serves as a testament to his resilience and passion for sport, illustrating how he has turned adversity into motivation. Ultimately, our conversation sheds light on the broader themes of empowerment and the importance of community support within the disability landscape.

Takeaways:

• Abdallah Anwar, having Cerebral Palsey, shares his experiences navigating life with disability.
• The podcast emphasizes the importance of amplifying voices within the disability community.
• Abdallah discusses his educational journey, highlighting the significance of independence and determination.
• The conversation addresses societal misconceptions about disabilities and the value of respectful engagement.
• Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own perceptions and interactions with individuals with disabilities.
• The hosts advocate for reducing fear and isolation within the disability community through open dialogue.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Aguair Professional Training
• Mail to World
• Cutco

The following is a productions original series.

Hello and welcome to Rock and Roll Live.

I am Doug Vincent, joined by Addie Rich.

Our podcast is dedicated to amplifying the voices of the disability community.

I am a polio survivor.

And we have the giggles.

And I have cerebral palsy.

Good to see you.

How are things?

They're good.

Yeah.

Still suffering with the weather, but, you know, I'm waiting for the burr months.

Like, how many more days?

There's 21 days and we'll be in September, but that's all.

Also so freaky because I don't know about you, but I feel like this year was like, bam.

It was so fast.

So.

So the whole year.

Oh, I mean, it's already August.

Yeah, I know.

I got bad news for you, hun.

What?

It gets worse the older you get?

No, I mean, I'm so happy to be here.

And yeah, every day is a great day, but I'm also amazed that.

Well, you know, somebody said to me, and I. I think this is.

It is.

You know, when you're.

When you're five years old, a year is a fifth of your life.

When you're old like me, it's a 70th of your life.

O. Wow.

I never thought of that.

Yeah.

So smart.

Like I say, somebody else told me.

Yeah, right.

Come up with that one on my own.

So you have a good week.

Other than that.

Me first.

Yeah, you go first.

Me.

So you.

Oh, first.

Pretty uneventful.

I mean, I'm getting a patio put in my house finally.

I mean, I had one, you know, but it was.

It was horrible.

It was a.

It was brick, and it had more waves than the Atlantic.

You know, it was like up and down and.

And.

And I thought that it was just poorly made.

It was like somebody put sand down and then put the bricks down, and it kind of like sunk in some areas.

But no, they.

They come here to start tearing it up last week, and it's like the brick on top, they go through that with a jackhammer.

And then they find concrete.

They go through the concrete and they find more brick.

Then they find more concrete and rebar and all this stuff.

They're.

They're making headway, though.

They're making pretty good time, too.

They're kind of putting it all in the big dumpster.

They put my driveway.

I woke up this morning to go to the doctor, who's my cardiologist.

I can't get my car.

There's a big dumpster eight inches from my side where the ramp comes out, so.

Right.

Because in their mind again, accessibility in their mind.

They're leaving you room on the driver's side, not realizing that.

Exactly.

You need the passenger side.

So the neighbor helped me out again, saved me again, came over, neighbor bestie.

Good news at the doctors.

You know, we have the same conversation.

You know, they asked me all the questions.

I'm fine.

You know, chest pains and shortness of breath, and when they listen to art, listen to my lungs, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, everything looks good.

Still alive.

You have a heart.

So now it's going to be a year before I go back instead of every six months.

Oh, that's a W in my book.

So.

Right.

That's pretty much me.

I remember when they did that for my seizure stuff, like last year or a year ago when they said, oh, you're so well controlled that you can transfer your seizure care to your primary and we'll see you every three years.

And I was like, hallelujah, we're moving up in the world.

Yeah.

And they're still there if you need them.

Right?

Right.

They're not like, don't call us.

We'll call you.

Lose our number.

It's just a.

It's just a progress and a growth, so.

Yay.

So, you know, I'm trying to think.

I know you went out and.

And had some fun with some friends, but I don't know if it's.

Since the last time we talked.

While we talked last time, I can't remember.

You went to dinner and stuff.

I know you went to the conference.

Yes.

Tell us what you did.

I went to the conference.

I think we talked about this, but.

We did talk about that.

The conference was amazing.

Last week was trying to, like, catch up on my own tail because nobody does the work that I do.

So.

Although it was great and wonderful and all the things.

Coming back to four and a half days of not doing work and being at the end and beginning of a month was a challenge.

But, you know, I.

My friends are amazing people, and they make me feel just like a normal old person.

And they're like, do you need your wheels?

And the older you get, the less they make a deal of it.

As long as their car fits you.

It's.

We're moving on.

Like, are we picking this up or are we not?

You know?

Yeah, you know, we.

We just did an interview that will air in a month or so and got to talking about that kind of thing, you know, where children, their parents will say, you know, don't stare.

And, you know, that's kind of like, just might as well.

Just say they're different.

Stay away, you know.

Yeah, hook the gate up.

They're isolated in school.

They have their own classroom.

They don't, you know, interact with the general public or population.

Sounds like I'm talking about a prison, but.

Right.

You know, so that just kind of fosters that whole thing.

You know, we're.

We're approachable and there is a.

There is a part of our community that really doesn't like that kind of stuff, you know, you know, asking how are you?

Or, you know, holding doors for you.

That's.

I still remember, like, being 20 or whenever I went to Europe.

Right.

And my aunt who was living in, like, London was like, do you want to see the care home?

And I about fell over.

But this was like a home that, like in former times, Europe, like, that's what they did.

Oh, you have cp.

We don't know what we're going to do with you.

We don't want to come.

Not.

We want to accommodate you, but it was either like the person in the attic or you got sent to these care homes.

Right.

And, like, I feel like for you and me, we were given a life.

We were throwing out.

Like, I feel like that's one of the best things.

And even in the advocacy work and stuff that I'm starting to lean more heavily in because of, like, getting comfortable at doing this with you and stuff, I feel like that that is always the un.

Overarching message.

Right.

Is, yeah, yeah, I can be here.

And I don't feel that extraordinary, you know, as far as that goes, you know, and I, I made friends and, you know, we're hearing stories about, you know, people being isolated because people are afraid to approach, you know, a child that's.

That's special needs, whatever you want to call it, disabled, whatever.

It's like, God, let's, let's work on saying it's okay to approach people in a respectful way.

What's wrong with that?

We teach fear.

Yeah, we teach fear.

Exactly.

We teach fear.

So hopefully some of this and the podcast and like, we're doing two things.

My dream is we're doing two things.

Reducing fear and reducing isolation.

Because those are the two biggest beasts that exist in the community.

And ideally, that's.

I would love to do that, you know, so when I see people on social media, you know, saying, oh, this is help, you know, they do the top five things stupid people say to us, you know, it's like, really?

You think that's going to get.

Bring us together?

Yeah.

I mean, I, I Know that irritates you sometimes because you've been doing it and not naming any names.

But, you know, if you came to disability later and you've been doing it for five years, you know, those of us who have been doing it for 45 and 70 years, we've heard that all the time.

And.

And from the very beginning, if you ask me, respectfully, I am going to educate you.

I've always educated well, and I feel like that.

That is.

I think that's right, what you're saying.

I feel like that's a missed angle.

Right.

Like, people doing the five top stupidest things people say to us.

Well, you could say the five best things to say to a perfect person that you want to learn more about.

Like, it could be turned.

Right.

But it's not the sensationalism.

It's the.

The same things on YouTube.

That's like, she murdered her husband.

And then.

It has nothing to do with that because.

Because it said she murdered her husband,.

You know, and the one that really has started to get in my kitchen and it's starting to irk me is the.

Is the.

This blowback on what happened to you.

You know, I'm doubting it.

People are saying there's hardly a day goes by when somebody doesn't say, what happened to you.

I mean, you know what?

Here, if we ever use this,.

I'm.

In a wheelchair, you know, I'm not hiding under the radar, you know, so if anybody's gonna say, what happened to you?

It's not like, oh, yeah, Doug, you probably don't have anything visible.

I'm in a wheelchair.

I walked on crutches and braces the rest of my life.

And.

And so people are curious, you know?

You know what?

And I'll give you a little secret.

You're.

I'm on the inside of me.

Think of me, and my eyes are my little window to look out of me.

Yeah.

When I'm just living my life, you know, going running errands and going to a ball game or doing whatever I'm doing.

I don't see.

I don't see.

We'll send the H word.

I don't see.

I don't see people that are disabled very often.

I find myself sometimes staring.

Oh, for sure.

I always say, like, it's funny to me when I walk by an elevator, the elevator gets me every damn time because it's a reflective surface.

And my shadow will be walking up, and I'll be like, whoa.

And then I'm like, oh, that's me,.

You know, in my mind, I can remember walking.

Been a while, but I can remember walking and like, that I would see.

And I.

Inside of me, I felt like I walked pretty normal.

Yes.

Then I was, you know, in a.

In a store window.

That's what I look like when I'm walking.

No, for sure.

I see I have a T shirt and I bought this shirt because I loved it so much.

It's a flamingo.

And it's, like, standing there and it says, majestically awkward.

That is how I see myself.

Right.

Because like you say, we.

Our souls are inside these containers and it doesn't feel.

Well.

Okay.

I can't say that.

The older I get, it does feel like my look and my feel are probably similar, but as a younger person, that wasn't the case.

Right.

Like, I did not feel how chaotic it was that.

Yes, yes.

I get why people put their arm out or, like, thought I was drunk or whatever.

So we have that own realization moment within ourselves.

Yes, yes.

You know, I just.

I just saw your.

The comedian.

You went Latina, you know, from.

Yeah, yeah.

She talked about this whole thing.

She was saying to me in my head, I am very.

I speak very well.

I'm very articulate.

Anybody can hear, you know, And I don't know what the.

There's a disconnect between that, you know.

Right, right.

Kind of the way it is.

I don't know.

I don't know what it is in your brain that kind of does that.

I don't know if it's.

It's got to be something.

It's.

Maybe it's a projection mechanism.

Who knows?

Yeah.

Who knows?

But we're about to tell a cool story today.

Yes, we are.

Thank you for bringing us back for, you know, Doug's rant.

You don't know how many rants I. I have in me that I usually keep.

Contain.

Maybe I should.

She's here.

She's here.

Let me start one.

No, I'm kidding.

So, yeah, first of all, thank you for options for all in.

Leo Zuno.

Thank you for coming on last week and telling us all about the great work you do.

What a.

What a great human being, huh?

For sure.

I'm still smiling.

You say his name and my face.

I'm not advocating this, Leo, but I think you'd do it for nothing.

So.

Yes.

The kind of guy he seems to be.

Yeah.

All right.

Don't forget to like and subscribe and share, please.

We like to grow.

The community will help us.

We're, you know, we.

We've been kind of Doing this on our dime for couple of years and we thought if we could just kind of COVID the cost, that would be great.

So if you, you know, did a subscribe, won't cost you anything and that'll help us a lot.

So we appreciate that.

Coming up today, it's an interview with AB his name is.

I don't even know.

I call him a B so much.

It's Abdul Anwar.

He'll tell you, he'll tell you.

He says it, but yeah, he says.

It but we just call him a BE.

Yeah.

So he's coming up next.

First, let's hear a word from Agyar Professional Training.

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From the AGYAR Professional Training Staff studio, you're listening to Walk and Roll Live.

Let's say Tuesday, new day, new guest let.

Say.

Tuesday, new day, new guest let.

We've told a lot of stories.

There's been so many glories.

W and R continues.

Let's get to our interview today.

AB is with us and that stands for his name, which he will share with you and some other pertinent details.

My name is AB Anwar.

It's actually Abdallah, but I go by AB I'm from right here in North Hollywood.

There'll be more to that story, but I'm originally from Saudi Arabia, but I live here in North Hollywood and I have cp, Cerebral palsy.

Very good.

Doug is now out.

I'm outnumbered.

Yeah, as well.

Somebody, one of you has the veto vote on anything we do.

Correct.

So.

So how long have you been here?

That's I guess, my first question.

Well, there's more details to that question now.

Yeah, we want all the details.

So I, I grew up here.

But.

So it was all here in, in the US in various places.

As I said, I grew up in Kansas through high school, and then I went to the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign.

And then for my first master's, I got Masters in Advertising at Boston University.

And then after that, I moved out to Los Angeles and.

Okay.

Okay.

So you are a professional schooler.

I was, yes.

It's another way I'm outnumbered here.

Right.

Like, okay, Doug, we're keeping.

You know, you were just talking about games we play.

We're playing a game with Doug.

He doesn't know it.

We've got two points already.

Very nice.

C.P.

There you go.

You know, so the.

Where I met A.B.

Was on the.

And this is.

We were just talking about this before we came on AB So if you could clarify for us.

I think I had it clarified once, but I still get it mixed up.

Bacchi.

A ball.

Is it bocce ball or bacia ball?

It's bocce ball.

Bocce ball.

All right, very good.

The B, O, C, C, E. Is that the way it's spelled or.

Yeah, it's supposed to be.

Yeah, but it's.

People just say bachi.

Okay.

Okay.

There's no other.

Yeah, it's just the spelling is different, but the pronunciation should be the same on both.

Okay, got you.

Very good.

So.

So that's why I met him.

Is at a tournament a few months ago at Burbank, and.

Which, you know, we've talked about.

The Burbank rec department here.

They.

They do an outstanding job and are always improving with the disability community.

So.

And we go there once a week or I try to make it once a week.

I'm sure AB it's kind of up and down for you too, but, you know, and we practice there, so I'm trying to hone my skills, and when I grow up, I want to be like A.B.

He's.

He's amaz.

So we'll get back to that.

I want to get back to that.

But.

So then after college, you got your master's.

Then at some point after that you got your mba.

Well, it's a while after that.

So after.

After my mba, I moved out to la saying, hey, I want to find.

You know, I'm gonna find a job.

So.

And I went.

Moved to la and I had one year to find a job.

It was called the optional practical training, which is what foreigners receive after they finish their degree and they get one year to either find a job, do an Internship.

And after that, they have to either get a sponsor or go home.

So I managed to thankfully get.

Get a company to sponsor me.

And I.

They're called Mail to World.

They were email provider, so I did.

I did marketing for them.

Okay.

I'm curious, though.

I'm reminding you back in your story because that made you older.

So when you were how old, when you got to the US and were in Topeka?

I was 10.

Okay.

Because I was like, wait, we got to set the scene for that now.

What program was that that brought you?

Is it a.

Is it.

Is there a specific program that brings you from there?

Specialized school for.

For people with disabilities.

Okay.

They.

They just.

It was called the Capper Foundation.

Okay.

They decided to.

That I needed to go there first to get physical therapy, occupational therapy, and to learn my.

My English better.

Okay.

From there, they branched me out to regular public school in Kansas.

What time did you.

Or what year did you transfer into, you know, regular school?

It was like a year afterwards.

A year.

Oh, were you like, in four or third grade when you got.

It was almost.

Almost fifth.

Yeah.

Okay.

I used to be a teacher, so I tend to be good at the math of like, how old were the kids?

I taught six sevens and eight.

So I use my kids to figure out where you might.

Yeah, so I was.

So I was maybe 11, 12.

Yeah, that's about when I was mainstreamed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Fifth grade at the specialized schools, so they can, you know, I can learn my English and.

And get, you know, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and I was also at the dormitories for the first year.

Gotcha.

Now.

Is your family here as well?

No.

No.

You're a 10 or 11 on your own here in a new country.

Wow.

Okay.

They brought me over and they stayed, you know, for, I'd say a few.

Maybe a week or two.

I don't remember exactly.

But then they left me in the care of, you know, basically this door.

Mom.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Oh, go ahead.

Sorry.

I just wanted curious, how did you handle that as 11 or 12?

It was rough.

It was rough for a while.

Yeah.

You're like, who put me here?

How do they decide, though, in Saudi Arabia?

How do they select you?

Like, you are a candidate to go to the US versus to stay in Saudi Arabia and just live that life?

Like, how does that happen?

They.

They didn't select me.

My, you know, my families, as for, you know, they have resources.

Gotcha.

So I, I was like, well, we can't give them more schooling here.

It's not going Anywhere, so.

But we can afford to do this.

And, you know, I remember one time I was telling my mom, you know, she.

She's a doctor, so she got a call saying, what should I do with my kid?

And I.

And, you know, she got a call from somebody, you know, asking advice, what should I do?

She has a disability.

It's severe and it's obvious.

And she's.

And I.

And I. I remember telling her, well, just have him send her to the US or whatever.

Yeah.

But she's like, you think everybody can just go to the US when they feel like it?

So.

Yeah, I was pretty fortunate in that way.

Yeah.

They were able to, like, see your potential and then find the way to get you there.

So.

Yeah.

And the learning.

The barrier was your cp, that you couldn't get a better education in your homeland.

Right.

At the time, I couldn't go to regular schooling in Saudi Arabia.

Yeah.

I don't know about now, you know, and I don't want to say anything bad about it.

Yeah.

It is what it is, but it.

Is what it says.

Yeah.

At the time, I don't think I could have.

Well, like you said, at least you had access to something different because it wasn't an option for you.

Yeah.

No.

So do you know, like, for me, I was born early.

They can't exactly say, like, what it is that.

When did I get cp?

I don't know.

Anytime between zero and whatever.

But did they have any idea for you what it was?

I was born prematurely as well.

I was born at the seventh month.

Okay, cool.

We're.

We're high five twins.

Three months early.

Oh, man.

I'm just going to sit over here in the corner.

Yeah, just.

Just go sit down.

We'll.

We'll talk to you later.

Holler if you need me.

Right, exactly.

So are there things that you can remember about growing up in Saudi Arabia, though, before coming to the US about, like, being a different kid?

I was sent in a, you know, specialized school as well there, you know, and they ran.

They had different, you know, times for vacations.

They had.

So I was pretty annoyed at that.

And a lot of the time I would be doing my own thing, so they'd have me do math stuff and the rest of the class would be doing their own thing because they knew I was, you know, separate from them or did at different levels.

So.

Yeah, your intellectualism doesn't match your body, so they can't be like, here, color in red squares all day.

You're like, right, right.

Yeah.

Do you feel like you Were underestimated.

Yes, very much so at that school.

Yeah.

So they kind of made some assumptions based on your disability.

Yeah, well, they, they kind of gave me what.

What.

What they had.

Right, Exactly.

Right.

They did what they could with you.

But.

But it sounds like, although it was difficult to come to the U.S. that was one of the best things that could happen to you because.

Right.

I mean, at 10, you're probably like, this freaking sucks.

But now looking at it and looking at how educated you've become and the life you've lived, you're pro.

Yeah.

So.

So what was that like?

They get you ready, they bring you to the US you get brought to the dorm and they're like, ta da.

Here you are.

How does that work?

I don't know.

Right.

It was, it was pretty tough to get used to, like the day to day.

Yeah.

Because, you know, you basically had to depend on somebody you didn't know in the morning to get ready.

Yeah.

And they, they ship you off, you know, a few streets down to the school and.

And then you're pretty much there all day.

And what was it back then?

It was 3:30, almost 4:00'.

Clock.

Yeah.

And then you come back and you kind of just hang out for a while, do homework and do whatever and have dinner and it was kind of the routine every day on the weekends.

I didn't get to go home like a lot of the kids.

You know, what, what did you do?

What was your free time comprised of?

We went to the movies, went to the stores, we went to, played cards.

We also participated in, I think, wheelchair soccer.

It was different than what it was available today because it was actual wheelchair soccer.

Soccer.

So you did get to experience some of the land that you.

Or suddenly plopped down into.

That's good, right?

Yeah.

And then I got.

I got introduced to bocce through a summer or a PE class, and that's where I picked it up.

It all started to make sense.

Yeah.

How old were you then?

I was probably 10 or 11 when I started.

See, Doug, this is why you had to.

You.

You're behind the curve a little bit.

Yeah, Yeah.

I, you know, just in the time that I played with AB I've seen him do some.

I mean, on the, on the cusp of miraculous things.

I want to be on his team, not on the opposing team.

Right.

You're like, no, I will only play with him, not against him.

So what was it that made you say, like, this is interesting and I want to do this?

Like, yeah, it was because I think what Drew me to bocce was that I can do all.

Every part of the sport.

Yeah.

Okay.

Versus, you know, like wheelchair soccer.

You can only be a defender or you can sit there and block somebody, but you can't, you know, really manage to handle the ball because you don't have the.

The abilities that a wheelchair basket, you know, basketball.

Wheelchair player would have with their bike.

Right.

So.

And what drew me to boxes, you can do all the parts of the sport.

So.

Yeah.

And we tried everything.

We tried tennis, we tried all kinds of various sports that were available.

It's kind of like what attracted me to it is just in, you know, I'm my old age, you know, my shoulders are wearing out, so I'm looking at something that's not so high impact.

So, yeah, it fit for me as well.

And I'm really enjoying it now.

I feel like I need to YouTube because I don't really know what this is.

And you guys are all like, yes, I can do it.

And I'm like, cool.

Because I, you know, like, you talk about.

I'm the girl that, like, they started me on clarinet.

Then my right side couldn't do the note.

So then we got to do trumpet.

Then we gotta.

You know what I mean?

Like, you gotta do something else because you can't.

The same in.

In.

In elementary school, I was doing the drums.

And you know those bells that you have now, do they.

Do they call them bells or.

Yeah.

I don't even know.

I know what you're saying, but I don't.

They're called.

But at a certain point, you really can't improve.

Yeah.

Right.

I'm impressed, though, that they were, you know, trying to get you involved, though.

I like that.

Giving you some opportunities to, you know, try and see if it works.

Yeah.

I got to perform in band.

Yeah.

You know, along with the rest of the.

Yeah.

You got to be nervous along with everybody else.

Yeah.

Right.

So with cp, it's typically on a side.

Yeah.

Which side are you?

My.

The most effective.

It's in both, but the most affected side is the right.

Okay, cool.

We're matching.

Yeah, it is too.

When I meet people that it's the left, I'm like, okay, let's slice in half and we'll make one whole person and one half.

Yeah.

But I'm like, you know, of course we're full people.

But similarly, mine's on the right too.

So if you sneak up on me, you come up where I don't quite see you or whatever I can.

You can scare the crap out of me inadvertently because my spasticity kicks in and.

Yeah.

And the moral reflex or whatever it is.

I call it the possum.

I don't know what it's really called, but I call it the possum.

But you didn't just jump into bocce and like, do it half.

You became a big deal.

You were able to.

Honestly, I am not.

I'm not a big deal.

Or at least not anymore.

I just kind of do it to.

Because it's, you know, one of the very few physical exercises that I can do.

And, you know.

Okay.

But you're all the other.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Just.

Plus all the other aspects to that kind of thing is the competition and the camaraderie between players, even though it's.

It's mostly.

Mostly one on one.

Yeah.

Or is it.

Is it.

Yeah, yeah.

In the.

When you get to the international competition, they focus more on the team, but.

Gotcha.

Because that's how they rank the teams is the.

Through the team competition.

But they still have an individual aspect to.

So at some point.

Did you realize I might have something here?

Yeah.

And I. I remember in.

Whenever it was.

In about five years after I came to the US I was like, I can do this and I can fight for the U.S. yeah.

I could be that point on.

I was like, I gotta figure out how I can become a US Citizen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was the whole process in itself.

Yeah.

So you were 17 when you made Team US, eh?

17 Or 18.

Yeah.

I was around a.

17.

Yeah.

17 Or 16 was one of those.

So were you a citizen by then?

No, no, no.

I. I didn't realize that it would take me at least another decade to become one.

Yeah.

So I. I didn't.

So I didn't manage to get my citizenship all the way through university.

Through the University of Illinois.

You're able still to compete for Team usa, though I was not.

Okay.

Had stopped.

But back then I was told that you can compete for the Team USA in every competition except for the Paralympics.

That's what it would be.

You.

Yeah.

So go all the way up the mountain, but you can't go to the top until you do the other paperwork.

Dang.

Yeah.

Amazing.

But you got to compete around the world.

Yes, in at least three places I went.

That's amazing.

Argentina.

I went to Portugal and.

And Vancouver.

Wow.

That's the wonderful thing about sports too.

When you get to that level, you, you know, give you the opportunity to See the world a little bit, right?

Yeah.

That's awesome.

So what was your favorite out of the three?

Not that you need to pick a favorite, but I'm gonna.

Yeah.

Out of the places I have to.

Say, it was Argentina.

Argentina was.

Was beautiful.

Yes.

You know, Canada and.

And Portugal, I just couldn't adjust.

But Argentina was definitely.

Yeah.

How long do you spend there?

Like, so when you go to compete, how long are you there?

Usually it's about a week to 10 days.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it's not very long.

And the bad part about competing, traveling to compete, is mostly you just see the gym, right?

Yeah, yeah.

The end.

If you have time, then you might be able to see the sights.

But mostly you compete.

Yes.

Like.

Like a real athlete that only sleeps and goes to the gym.

Like, it is the same.

I think people have a misnomer about what it means to be disabled and be an athlete.

That it's like, way different.

And.

No, it takes the same dedication, the same schedule, the same rigorous.

Yeah.

Everything to do.

Heartbreaks along the way.

Yeah, all of those things.

Probably learn more in losing than you do in winning.

Unfortunately.

Yes.

Yeah.

So now you're.

Are you hoping to get to the Olympics in 28?

Is that a goal at all?

Yeah, yeah, I'm hoping, but I don't know.

I'm kind of Persona non grata with the team right now.

What did you do?

I. I don't train a whole lot because it's just.

It's a lot to train and I don't have the resources to, you know, hire somebody.

Hey, come with me.

Every day to train and pick up balls.

Every day.

Yeah.

That's a big issue.

Finding somebody to pick up balls and finding a place to.

To train.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, unless you were, you know, you're part of a bigger organization.

But here in la, we're only, you know, we only have the Southern California adapted sports, but that's about it that I.

The other organizations, do they do much bocce ball or.

No,.

There's.

There's a few teams that are in, you know, around the States.

You know, New York has a team and they have facilities to do, so.

Yeah, I know in Kansas we have a team, but we barely have facilities.

And then there's other organizations around Chicago, I believe they have to.

Midwest thing, it sounds like.

Now, is there.

Is there a regulation surface that you play on?

It's just.

Just a gym floor.

Right.

Then the.

The court is laid out with tape.

Yeah.

Because the first time that I, you know, our first three times That I was playing bacia ball.

It was on three different surfaces.

One was a gym floor.

Next one was linoleum, but that's probably pretty much the same, right?

And then one was on a.

Like a astroturf, kind of very short cropped.

And it was.

The ball rolled better than I thought it would.

You know, at first I was like,.

That sounds like that would be tough.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

You know, you don't get any muscle memory from one place to the next when you're doing that.

You know, I just.

What I need to do is just go out and.

And.

Well, maybe we can talk about this now is just get a jack ball and the other balls and just throw for an hour and just try to get as close as I can, because.

Yeah, you know, I don't have enough repetition to really feel like I'm.

You know, because I'll throw it and it goes off to the left or right.

Like, where was that?

You know, so.

Yeah, yeah, that still happens to me to this day.

Yeah.

So explain the balls and how that all works.

So the balls are filled with pellets.

There's six, six blue, six red.

And then the jack ball is the white ball that you aim for.

Then the white balls.

The jack ball is considered the.

The serve ball.

You serve it and then you try to get as close as possible to it with one of these red and blue balls.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

And then your opponent, who is the other color, tries to get closer by either moving your ball or just getting closer.

Gotcha.

Okay, so it's.

Is it like a giant game of beanbag toss?

It's not beanbags because the balls roll all over the place.

They're like kind of like a hacky sack ball.

Yeah.

Okay, but.

But more softball sized.

Gotcha.

Yeah, like cornhole.

But the cornhole is the white ball, right?

Yes, gotcha.

Okay.

I have to put it in southern terms.

You know, I'm kind of southern when I.

When I'm like cornhole.

Okay.

So when you're at a brewery that feels like that is the south.

No, no.

And then the other challenge is there's different weights of the balls that you're throwing at the jack ball and different densities.

Yeah.

Was that the way you would put it?

Yeah.

There's some that are harder, some that are softer, and they help for the distance.

So if you're throwing a softball, you can throw shorter and more control.

Yeah.

If you're throwing a hardball, you know, you need less power to get it all the way down the fort.

Who decides what.

What type of ball you're throwing?

The individual right now, you have to decide because you bring your own equipment to play.

Okay.

But in any set, you know, that has six balls of each color, they're.

They're different weights and densities.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If there is a.

If they're a recreational set, then you'll probably get mostly hard ones.

Yeah.

Is that.

Oh, is that how it works?

Gotcha.

So you.

You don't just do this for the heck of it.

You got a national championship.

Well, you got more than one.

How many did you get?

I. I've gotten nine.

My LA.

My last one was 20, 23.

So how do you.

Since you started it when you were so young, how do you maintain, like, the momentum and the competitiveness and all the things over the years?

Because obviously,.

You know, I try to practice when I can, but I just don't practice regularly enough to be competitive in the international scene.

But I'm trying.

But yeah, it's practicing understanding the strategy and then trying to implement it in your everyday practice.

That's what I was going to ask because, like, obviously it's not just like, do what you want.

There is some sort of strategy.

How does that kind of work?

Yeah.

So you.

You can place the jack basically in.

In an area of the court that favors you then, and then see where the opponent goes and try to, you know, avoid that spot if you can.

Yeah, that's the.

That's the strategy, you know.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Now what?

Now what does a practice look like for you?

I know we just.

We've been playing games when we get together, just.

And everybody has a turn.

Like I say, you know, you get two balls each game.

You might play three or four, five maybe in a day of practice.

So that means you're only throwing the ball 10 times.

Right.

So do you go and just kind of repetitively throw the ball in practice?

Yeah, yeah.

Yes.

Basically what I try to do is.

Basically what I've done in my practice is because there is a.

There's basics to botchy.

There's, you know, you have to place the ball right in front of the jack.

That way it's the most difficult for the opponent to move it if it's right in front.

Right.

And then.

And then I.

So I set him up that way.

First you have to put it there.

Okay.

Okay.

Right.

You have to be able to put it there on your first ball.

And then on the opposite side of that is if your opponent is right there in the.

In front of the white wall, you have to be able to move or knock his ball out of the way, basically.

Or the white ball, you have to move it somewhere.

Move something.

Yeah, yeah.

That you'd have a clean shot.

And that's basically if you can do that consistently.

Yeah.

You're ahead of 90 of people.

Doug, aren't you taking notes?

Yes, I'm wearing out my pencil.

Are you kidding, Right?

Yes, that's why I'm asking.

So.

Yeah, then that's something that I haven't been able to do.

I mean, I can do it, but I can't consistently do it.

You have walls, and, you know, you try.

Okay, say I'm gonna.

Each time I throw a ball and get it right in front of the jack, I'm gonna take it off and try to throw the next one.

If you can do six balls and do it that way, you're pretty good.

You're all right.

You're close to a B if you can do that.

AB is still trying to get there.

Hey, I'm speaking it into existence.

Ab, don't take it out.

Yeah, he did all right.

In.

In Burbank, there was one game.

It's kind of towards the end of the day, and people.

I don't think we're paying much attention, but it was right at the end of the game, and it went back and forth with, you know, each team getting a little bit closer.

Yeah.

And there was, you know, a red and a blue ball that were right.

Right next to the jack ball.

And he throws it out there and lands it on top of the three balls.

Yeah.

How do you have aim?

I don't have aim with cp.

I mean, that is.

You have mastered something I still have not mastered.

I'm 47.

That's what.

That's what they're trying to accomplish by having boxes.

Seeing how many people can control their.

Their muscle movements to do this, which.

Is amazing, because, I mean, like I say, I can be.

I can be as fortitude in my brain of, like, I'm going over here, and then my balance will be like, no, you're not.

No, you're not.

Yeah.

So.

So is.

Is part of, like, training for you too, as well, you know, like, even off the.

Off the court.

Does it help with other aspects of your life?

For sure, Right?

Yeah.

And trying to focus and remain in control of your.

Of your body and staying up straight of your container.

This would be entertaining.

We should do some sort of calisthenics together and be like, who can stay upright longer?

It's gonna be even.

You know, you'll notice eventually, as the conversation goes on, you'll see me like, kind of lean over.

Yeah, it's the CP tip.

We have the CP tip.

Or lean over this way.

And I have to remember, okay, sit up, you know?

I know.

Isn't it funny?

It's like we come installed with our parental voice or whoever was yelling, stand up straight or sit up to us.

Like, we don't need them anymore.

We're this old.

But I hear that voice too.

Like, I'll be slouching and I'll be like, sit up.

Not present, but present.

They're omnipresent to keep us upright.

So when you're not doing bocce, you obviously pursued a lot of education.

Yeah.

What made you think about advertising?

I.

You know what?

I don't.

I just.

I love the fact that I remember watching the super bowl for the first time.

I was like, man, people actually, you can do these commercials.

Yeah.

Fell in love with it.

And then somebody told me, you know, that's like something like 30 million for like 30 seconds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was like, what?

And I was like, oh, I gotta do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's how I pursued my education.

Little did I know.

Even my uncle told me, you know, you want to be in marketing?

If you're going to be in marketing, you're going to be the first one fired if.

If a company is not doing well.

Yeah.

So.

But that's what I did.

I pursued advertising and I did marketing for my mba.

So.

And that's how it, how it started.

And I, I wanted.

I knew I wanted to be in the business side.

Okay.

And that's.

How did you pick your schools?

Because they're kind of all over the place.

So, like, what made you say Illinois and then Boston?

Yeah, Illinois, I definitely wanted to go.

And that's.

I pursued that to no end.

And I, you know, kept going and, and applying for that.

And I really wanted to go there.

Boston, I just kind of applied and I got in, but I wasn't, you know, it wasn't like my, My number one option or, or the place that I definitely wanted to go, but it was the place that I was like, okay, I got in here.

Yeah.

So I went there.

And, and, And I only did it because I couldn't find a.

A job right at the.

When I needed to, you know, because I, again, I needed to have either a job or an internship so that I can stay in the U.S. right.

Exactly.

You can't just be fumbling around doing whatever you feel like.

So yeah.

Right.

So I, so I went to BU after.

After Illinois.

Yeah.

How was that for your body?

Because honestly, I had thought about Boston for getting my master's and then I realized, oh, my God, it snows and it's freaking cold.

And my was.

It was definitely very, very cold.

And I was a homebody pretty much in Boston during the winter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And.

And I live right by.

I lived on a street called Comac.

Commonwealth Avenue.

Okay.

And the, the, the college, the College of Communication.

Because advertising was in the College of Communication, at least at the time was right next to the.

Where I was.

The apartment complex that I was living.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're no dummy.

You're like, I literally am gonna go out for 2.5 minutes to get over there.

Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah.

Even though, you know, some parts of Vu were not wheelchair accessible, and that's in general for the whole East Coast.

I was like, some parts of Boston.

I mean, Boston is one of my favorite places to travel, but there is a lot where we're like, yeah, we're not going there because we can't.

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't built.

Yeah.

Work on Boston.

Yeah, right.

So.

And that's where, that's where I went for my masters.

But Illinois.

Illinois was definitely.

It is still the most wheelchair friendly school.

And that's why I went.

I was like, okay, yeah, this is top tier education.

And you have, you'll, you'll get to experience the whole college experience because this is the most accessible university in the country.

Yeah, amazing.

So shout out University, Illinois.

Yeah.

So you started at the, the email marketing company and then where to go after that?

That, that was pretty much it.

I'm still there.

No, no, I'm not there, but okay, I'll get to that.

Okay.

So I, I was doing the email provider.

Not an email marketing or email provider like a Yahoo or a Gmail.

Okay.

Okay.

So six years.

Yeah.

And then after, then I left, I was like, yeah, by that time I got my green card.

Okay, all right.

Okay.

And.

And then I stayed another three years.

So.

So I was like, so I don't get, you know, nobody stayed there for, for the green card.

I stayed there another three years.

Yes.

So from there I did, you know, I was like, maybe if I get my mba, I'll find a better job and you know, get more, you know, make more money that way.

So.

So I went for my MBA at Pepperdine, Martha.

Okay.

I think.

And then I spent like four months looking for a job to, to know.

To know.

Well, no success, right.

So I, I asked for my, my job back.

You're like, hey, I'm smarter now.

Don't you want me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I did that.

That's after I was looking for jobs afterwards for quite a few months.

So almost another 10 years.

Yes.

Yes.

Wow.

So you were really, truly, even if you add it all up, you were there like 16 years.

Yes, yes.

So that's a long time.

And then what happened?

And that, that's one of my story changes a little bit.

Okay, we're ready for a turn plot twist.

Right.

So I was like, okay, I spent all this time.

I gotta figure out where my next job's gonna be because they, they let me go.

So I did the whole unemployment.

I sat there applying every day, flying, applying to all these different places again, to no success.

The only thing I did find, I. I joined a company called Vector Marketing.

They do, they do marketing and sales for.

I don't know if you've heard of Cutco knives.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Cut cone knives.

Right.

You.

They bring.

Basically people do a demonstration.

Okay.

Knives door to door.

It's basically door to door.

But home shows too, right?

Yeah, yeah.

They want you to present them in shows, do door to door, or do them online.

If you can get people to commit to listening to your spiel.

Real.

Yeah.

And you can do, do them online.

But I was like, this isn't working and it's not, it's not bringing enough of cash and it's not sustainable.

Right.

And I'm only able to sell to people that, that I know I can't sell to, to people who don't know me from that, you know?

Right.

So this isn't working.

So.

Oh, and by the way, but by this time I have my U.S. citizenship.

Okay.

Okay.

Cool.

Right.

I'm Gonna go get.

Ask my uncle, who's the CEO of our family business.

Yeah.

In Saudi, if I can get a job.

He was like, yes, you don't have a job here, but you have to come back.

You were like, oh, snap.

Yes.

So after four or five months of looking for a job, I was like, this isn't working and I need to have money coming in because I'm also, you know, I'm married and.

Okay.

I have a kid in Egypt.

Okay.

So I did that and I, you know, I go to Saudi, I leave everything here.

I basically left my apartment here in North Hollywood that I was staying at.

I basically left everything because it was.

I still took some stuff.

But let me tell you, even shipping that little bit of stuff cost an arm and a leg.

I should have just left everything or moved everything in storage for comparison to what I actually paid.

But eventually, if you leave it for a long time, you're.

You're gonna be pretty frustrated with the storage as well.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So anyway, I do go to Saudi and I, I, for the first few months, I, I lived with my parents.

Okay.

And I went to work every day, and I had an assistant that was with me constantly.

Okay.

Because Saudi is just not made for somebody to be able to independently maneuver day to day for sure.

By themselves.

So I had, I had a, an assistant basically, you know, come with me every day.

Yeah.

And he started out, he stayed the whole day, just sat around in one of the empty offices that we had.

But that didn't work.

And.

And he eventually didn't work out.

But that's a different story.

So I did that for a year.

Okay.

For.

That had to be unique because as a child, you're like, literally sent to be independent to the US and as a man, you're sent back to Saudi and you're not allowed to be independent.

Yeah.

With your parents.

So it's like a reverse.

Yeah, the reverse uno.

Right.

And I, I mean, for a while.

For a while, while I was in Saudi, I got my own place and I had the guy stay with me.

Okay.

The assistant.

But that also didn't work out because he was just.

He was a lot more messy than I, I was.

You're like, hey, you're assisting me, but you're also not assisting me.

Right, right.

So that, that didn't work.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I convinced my uncle, hey, for the job you're having me do in Saudi, which is not much, I can do it from the States.

Yeah.

So.

So, yeah.

And he's like, oh, class five.

So you did it a year there.

And we're like, look, I put in my penance.

Now let me go back.

Let me go back.

Yeah, you haven't been back that long.

A year or so, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Welcome back.

January 10th.

All right.

Or 20.

20.

25.

Or 26.

Yeah, 26.

Oh, wow.