In this thought-provoking episode, Andy Rotherham and Jed Wallace are joined by Lynne Graziano from Bellwether Education Partners to dive deep into the complexities and inconsistencies of adolescent laws across the United States. Using Bellwether's new "Edge of Seventeen" report as a cornerstone, this discussion covers a wide range of topics from the age of consent and marriage laws to labor rights and education policies.

*Key Topics Discussed:*

- The diversity in state laws regarding age-related permissions.

- Surprising statistics on child labor and marriage.

- The influence of federalism on policy consistency.

- The impact of these inconsistencies on today’s youth.

- The role of schools and education policy in navigating these challenges.

*Episode Highlights:*

- [01:45] Introduction of guest Lynne Graziano and the Edge of Seventeen report.

- [05:30] Discussion on the age of consent and marriage laws.

- [15:00] The role of federal legislation in creating consistency.

- [25:20] How adolescent laws impact education policies.

- [35:45] Viewer Q&A and final thoughts.

*Why Listen?*

This episode is a must-listen for educators, policymakers, parents, and anyone interested in the intersection of youth, law, and education. You’ll gain fresh insights into the often-overlooked area of adolescent policy and its real-world implications.

*Show Notes:*

- Edge of Seventeen Report by Bellwether Education Partners:

https://bellwether.org/publications/t...

- Aspen on cross-partisanship:

 • Crossing the Partisan Divide in Educa...  

https://www.aspeninstitute.org/public...

- Reagan Institute conference:

https://www.reaganfoundation.org/reag...

- SD state superintendent race:

https://www.inforum.com/news/north-da...

- NC state superintendent race:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/14/politi...

- Eduwonk musical chairs post:

https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/charte...

- Eduwonk musical chairs post:

https://eduwonk.substack.com/p/charter-schools-might-not-have-a

- Brandon Brown agrees with Andy:

https://x.com/BBrownIndy/status/1789041617715794327

- Travis Pillow agrees with Jed:

https://x.com/travispillow/status/1789414349141856388

Thanks for listening! See you in the next episode of WonkyFolk!

Hey Jed, how are ya?

2

I'm doing great.

3

So you got a, you have

a visitor with us today.

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Yeah, I brought along a friend.

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Um, uh, who is actually a,

both a friend and a colleague

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Lynn Graziano with Bellwether.

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I'll let her, uh, introduce

herself, but I'll just say she's

8

been with us For years, long time.

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One of the, one of the longest, um, uh,

Belwarians other than the founders, she

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used to do research work, uh, for me.

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And I was like, you're fantastic.

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And you should just work here.

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And, um, uh, against her better judgment,

she, um, she, she decided to do that.

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And, uh, against her better

judgment again, she decided

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to come on with us today.

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So, um, Lane, why don't

you introduce yourself?

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Lynne Graziano: Thanks, Andy.

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It's great to be here.

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Uh, yes, I'm coming up with my 10 year

anniversary at Bellwether and actually

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did work with Andy and Mary and some

of the other kind of founders before we

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actually became officially Bellwether.

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So it's been, it's been a good ride

and, um, no regrets about being

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talked into joining the family

and I'm really excited to be here.

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I'm now a senior analyst on

the policy team and policy

25

evaluation team at Bellwether.

26

And, um, we're going to talk about.

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piece we worked on a little bit later,

but first we've got some other things to

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do, so I'll throw it back to you guys.

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, so Linzel,

we're going to talk about this edge

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of 17 report that we just put out at

Bellwether, um, which I think will be fun.

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That'll be a fun, uh, conversation.

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A couple of housekeeping

things before we, um, just

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Jed Wallace: to be clear,

we make it a practice.

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We share with everyone that they

should question their, their judgment,

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you know, when we, you know, guests.

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So just, you know, no, you're

a part of the club now.

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Lynne Graziano: Absolutely.

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Jed Wallace: Uh, but hey, we got, you

know, there are like two or three things

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to touch base on before we jump into

this, uh, this new report from Bellwether.

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And, you know, Andy, I know we

were talking a little bit about

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some new stuff going on at Aspen.

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Uh, tell me what your

reflections are on that.

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Andy Rotherham: Yes, I had

a busy week of webinars this

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week and events and so forth.

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On Wednesday, I did this

webinar at the Aspen Institute.

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This project, there's just

fantastic people there.

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And Karen Nussel has been

sort of leading this.

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Um, but, uh, we had a, got a couple of

folks together for a, um, uh, webinar

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on this idea, and they put out a

paper about this, on this idea of like

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cross partisanship, basically, how do

you get stuff done in an intensely.

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polarized partisan environment and I

think negative polarization is a theme

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that'll probably show up later when

we talk about the edge of 17 report

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as

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Andy Rotherham: well.

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Um, uh, and the webinar was, was,

um, uh, was really interesting

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and it, it bears a little bit.

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We always talk about charters

as, as being bipartisan.

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I think they are, and I think

they, they continue to some extent.

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We're going to talk about that later,

but, um, Uh, this idea of cross partisan

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where the lines are just really, uh,

really sharp and the differences.

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And so how do you figure out how to

get things done in an environment like

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that and continue to get things done?

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It was a great we'll

throw in the show notes.

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It was a it was a good conversation.

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I think it does bear on some of

the some of the issues we work on.

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Jed Wallace: What's the

overarching theory there?

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Is it that there's really not

anything bipartisan anymore in that

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there's going to be a lasting body

of middle of the road proposals that

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people can be organized around and

now it's gonna be more eclectic?

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Or is there some other way of

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Andy Rotherham: That's, yeah,

that's a good way to say it.

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And then, like, one of the things I talked

about and we've talked about on this show

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Um, it's like we, we functionally, we, we

have, we have four political, we have two

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political parties, like officially the

Democrats and Republicans, but the only

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thing they're like strong enough to do is

sort of ward off third party challengers,

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like they're not actually that effective

as, as political parties right now.

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And within them, you really have like

functionally for, you've got sort of.

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Liberal, really progressive, um,

Dems and then sort of moderate, more

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establishment kinds of, um, you know,

more, more traditional liberal Dems.

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And on the Republican side, you've got

establishment Republicans, then you

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got MAGA and I mean, there's overlap

and that plays out in different ways.

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But like it, what it means is if you

actually want to get something done,

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you're sort of picking and choosing.

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And I think if you look at Congress,

we've sort of seen a little bit of that

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with this like flurry of, of policymaking

recently, that's been surprising in

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one instance, almost unprecedented

in terms of how the parties have,

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have interacted with one another, the

unprecedented one being everybody's

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like, we're not going to do the, go

through this whole speaker circus again.

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And so you had the, you know, the

opposition party save the, the,

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the Speaker of the other party.

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It's like that's the unheard of.

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Jed Wallace: Yeah, I mean,

we've talked about this before.

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I mean, the metaphor that I use

here is rather than a blob in the

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center, a blob of policy proposals

around which the moderates can kind

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of, um, uh, organize themselves.

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It's more a barbell.

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Um, and that we're going to see this,

this strange mix of new policies that can

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work, that some will be considered far

left, and some would be considered far

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right, and because we're just redefining

the political, the political norms, um,

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it's wrong to just think about just things

in the center, um, and, and actually we

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need to start thinking are, are there new

ways to propose something that previously

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was thought to be far left, Um, in ways

that might resonate with people far right

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and we have a just a weird eclectic mix

of new things that might be driving and

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reforming in the decade in front of us.

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Andy Rotherham: Well, I hope you're

right because that's in the past.

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I mean, I remember like, you know,

you can, when George Bush was getting

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attacked on no child behind from his

right flank, people hated, they were

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like, why are we doing all this stuff?

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And that was in many ways, a very liberal

education policy, which is why, you

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know, he was partnered up with, with

Ted Kennedy on, on key aspects of it.

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And so I think that sort of fluidity for

education, given that education sort of

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just does not align with either party.

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Uh, particularly well like that.

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If that is the case, that's

actually good news for what we do

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because it'll create opportunities.

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Jed Wallace: Well, we will, uh,

we'll see how that plays out.

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Now.

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I know you've also been thinking

about some, some, uh, some

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superintendents that yeah,

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Andy Rotherham: let's just

quickly ask Lynn Lynn.

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Lynn lives in Pennsylvania.

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Um, and, and, um, a quiet

little crossroads Gettysburg.

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Um, uh, um, so how Lynn, is this

what we're talking about here?

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Like in terms of, I've been

watching Pennsylvania politics.

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it's sort of an interesting state.

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It's going to be a key state in 2024,

obviously in the, in the election,

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but also just like the governor of the

legislature, the politics there seem

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like interesting and a little confused.

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Does that, does what we're talking about?

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Does it resonate?

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Lynne Graziano: Oh, absolutely.

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I mean, I think, um, I think the

perfect example is, is Fetterman,

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how Fetterman, everybody just loathed

him and just reviled him early on.

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And now he's become something

of a spokesperson for moderates

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on both sides of the aisle.

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And I think that that's sort of

an interesting example of how, um,

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things aren't what they used to be.

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You're

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not

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Lynne Graziano: getting what

you expected in a lot of ways.

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Um,

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, the Fetterman's,

like, Fetterman to Sinema, like, the

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land speed there is really remarkable.

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Jed Wallace: Well, also, I think the

Democratic governor in Pennsylvania

145

being a strong supporter of school

choice, uh, is another example

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of just an, an odd mix of things.

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And, and it being a, you know, a quasi

swing state now, I think, um, it, it

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makes Pennsylvania even more interesting.

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And the governor seems very pragmatic,

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Andy Rotherham: Shapiro.

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Like he, he doesn't seem like he doesn't

seem like a big ideologue on things.

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Lynne Graziano: Yeah.

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I feel like he's been one of

the, just from a, like how he's

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managed to bring people together.

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I've been watching him as I've been

here, a resident for 10 years, but I've

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also been watching it for about another

12 before that with my parents here.

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And I feel like, um, he's one of

the best examples in those two

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decades that I've witnessed that.

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He's really stood up for what he believes

in and done what he perceives to be

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right, regardless of what maybe the policy

has been traditionally in his party.

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Um, school choice being

a prime example of that.

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Um, he's also worked very hard

towards the economic issues and he's

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also, I think, more in touch with

Surprisingly, maybe with with rural

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politics than one might expect.

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It's been a nice surprise.

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Andy Rotherham: And what's interesting

about this, Lynn, if I can say this,

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um, uh, I guess if you hate it,

well, we don't do a lot of editing.

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We'll cut it out like you don't

share his politics, but yet you're

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still like admiring of his style

and how he's approaching this.

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Lynne Graziano: Absolutely.

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I have, I am a firm independent, um, and

I don't really vote one way or other.

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I, in the old days, leaned Republican, but

as we know, a lot of us have ended more on

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the independent spectrum in recent years.

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So, um, I do admire his work and I

admire the way that he's been able to

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build bridges in, in, in what you've

described well as a cross partisan world.

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I mean, I feel like he's managed to

make connections in a way that the

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citizens of Pennsylvania, at least

the ones that I know, respect him from

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both sides of the political spectrum.

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Andy Rotherham: I just think that's

like interesting in terms of there.

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I think there is an opportunity here

for politicians who like, aren't re

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don't react so much to like the current

thing, but instead start to move towards

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where our politics could be going.

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It seems like those politics is often,

you know, you're fighting the last

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war and the, and the, and I think the

ones who are, who are looking forward

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are going to, are going to benefit.

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Um, but speaking of last wars.

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Jed, that's what you wanted to get at.

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I was just struck.

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So I was at the Reagan

Institute on Thursday.

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Um, we're recording

this on a, on a Friday.

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Um, and we'll release that for Memorial

Day and the other Reagan, in fact,

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this Reagan Foundation and Institute,

they have obviously that huge place

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in California, um, which I've never

visited, but they also have an

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office, a lovely office in Washington.

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And, um, they host an education summit.

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And it was really good.

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It was really good this year.

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Um, since a lot of people who listen

to this, listen for sort of the, you

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know, whatever insider breadcrumbs,

um, Jenna Talbot at whiteboard, uh,

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really did some great work helping and

the, the Reagan folks and the Reagan

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folks, I thought did a nice job bringing

together, um, uh, different voices.

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You didn't, it was not the panels

were not the, you know, yeah.

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Three people saying the same thing.

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Like on my panel, I carry Rodriguez,

uh, from national parents union and

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Tiffany justice from moms for Liberty.

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Um, and I, it, it, I think it takes a

certain, it takes a certain kind of, did

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Jed Wallace: you sit between them?

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Andy Rotherham: No, I didn't.

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Um, who's, uh, Ralph Smith

from the campaign for grade

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level reading was between them.

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Um, uh, and, and yeah.

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And, and, um, uh, determined to

try to stave off, you know, It

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was interesting conversation.

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Kerry Jenner, the state chief from,

um, Katie Jenner, excuse me, the

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state chief from, um, Indiana was,

it was just fantastic state chief and

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another example of this, like she's a

Republican, but she's just very pragmatic.

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And, and, um, uh, anyway, um, but

one of the things that struck me is,

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um, Kathy Truitt, the chief of North

Carolina was there and on a panel.

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And so was, um, Kirsten Basler,

the chief in, in North Dakota.

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And.

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I mean, both like really accomplished,

very serious, uh, people, very deliberate.

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Truett though, in her

primary, uh, election lost.

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It was a big, people were quite surprised.

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People just didn't even think the primary

would be that seriously contested.

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She lost to a woman who like, among

other things, like has posted tweets

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about like shooting former presidents,

you know, like Obama and Trump.

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So about Biden and just said stuff about

Muslims, like way, way beyond the pale,

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all kinds of, all kinds of craziness.

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And it's an interesting situation.

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Cause it's like, you had this like really

great chief and now you have a choice

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between this person and the Democrat.

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The word on him down there is

everybody's like, he's fine, but he's

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not like going to set the world on

fire with like bold education ideas.

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So like North Carolina voters, your

choice is like, you know, lame or lunacy.

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Um, uh, which, I mean, if you're

a voter, that's, that's a bummer.

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And then in North Dakota, Basler, the

Republican convention, um, uh, endorsed,

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uh, they, they didn't endorse her.

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She's a Republican.

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Um, uh, you know, like I would think

in, in good standing, um, she's

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been really pragmatic there and so

forth and they didn't endorse her.

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And, um, instead there's two candidates

she's running against one who thinks.

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The number one problem facing

public schools is the persecution of

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Christians, which I mean, I don't know.

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Like I, it seems to me like low

reading and math achievement might

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rank above that, but that's just me.

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Um, uh, and then the other guy

is also very, very far, right.

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But he, he has the Heitkamp last name.

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And so I think people think.

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They may be associating him with, with

Heidi Heitkamp, who's a very sort of,

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you know, middle of the road senator.

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Um, uh, and so anyway, that is, uh, so

watching Bassler out there in a fight.

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I mean, she was like, you know,

she was president of the Council

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of Chief State School Officers.

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She's done all kinds of, of stuff.

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She's very well regarded.

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We should have her on the

podcast at some point.

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Although, uh, I hope that

would help her or not.

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But, um, uh, um, uh, that might

make people question her judgment.

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I'm here trying to make a case

that she has solid sound judgment.

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So maybe not.

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Um, but in any event, uh, I just think

it's interesting trend and it's kind of

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one of these things I've been surprised

it hasn't gotten more attention.

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Like, it, it seems interesting that this

is happening in our politics right now.

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Jed Wallace: Yeah, I think it's odd

that, um, we have all of this focus

265

on hyper partisanship and, and there,

there, clearly there is that, but

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there's not enough focus on, uh,

the dissension within the parties.

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And, you know, what we've seen in Congress

is a clear example of this, just the

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Republicans unable to come together and

it's just complete and utter chaos, which

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then results in the cross party stuff

that, you know, you're talking about in

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order to keep the speaker, uh, you Uh,

you know, in, in his seat, but if you

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talk to people in a lot of different

states, I mean, I can remember people

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talking, telling me about in Idaho, um,

it's not that focused on, but the, but

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the tension within the Republican party

and sometimes on education policy issues

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where somebody, you know, said to me,

literally in the Capitol building in

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Idaho, they were this close to fisticuffs.

276

You know, on, on some of these

issues, um, amongst Republicans,

277

I've heard of similar, uh, levels of

conflict in other states, Oklahoma

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is another one that comes to mind.

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So, um, yes, we are seeing the hyper

partisanship explicit in this kind of

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way, but also within the subsets, we have

similar things that are just ripping a

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lot of our status quo relationships apart.

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Fisticuffs.

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That's

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Andy Rotherham: not a word

I've heard in a long time.

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I didn't realize you were so Victorian.

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Well,

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Jed Wallace: maybe it's, maybe it's, I

think it's an Idaho term that somebody

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Andy Rotherham: state chief in Idaho

is another, I'm probably going to like,

289

by saying all these people are great.

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I'm probably like putting targets

on their back, but like Debbie

291

out there, she's a fan, you know,

doesn't share my perspective.

292

Politics, but she's a fantastic

chief, very, um, uh, pragmatic,

293

committed to kids, wonderful person

to just a really nice person.

294

Um, uh, and so you've got these, you,

you, you've got these really fantastic

295

people, but these you're exactly right.

296

These intro party pressures

are, are challenging.

297

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

298

And of course, I mean, we could

have focused on tensions within

299

the democratic party as well.

300

I mean, I think that, uh, you know,

bringing this back to what we were

301

talking about with Pennsylvania, um, uh,

And and like cross partisanship cross.

302

Is that what you call it?

303

Cross partisanship coming?

304

Yeah, yeah.

305

Instead of

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Andy Rotherham:

bipartisanship cross party.

307

Yeah,

308

Jed Wallace: I mean,

I just actually taking

309

Andy Rotherham: the

partisanship as a given.

310

Jed Wallace: Well, school choice

is just one of these barbells.

311

I think that, um, hey, we've got very

progressive people in Philadelphia that

312

are just Just furious at the quality of

options that they have available to them

313

and who are their political allies, but

Republicans at the state, and they might

314

not be able to agree on virtually any

other issue, but on school choice and

315

getting something better than what they

otherwise have to attend in Philadelphia.

316

Is something that they can, they

can clearly come to agreement on.

317

Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

318

And I mean, and that's the, we've

talked about it a lot in past episodes.

319

That's the Democrats cross pressure

problem is this issue of the teachers,

320

unions, and parents, and you know,

the Democrats, you know, try to ignore

321

that tension, um, or minimize it, but

it's, it's, it, that is going to be,

322

um, an issue and you're seeing that a

little bit, who knows what will happen

323

in November, but there's some evidence

that, you know, around the edges that's

324

mattering to voter behavior as well.

325

Jed Wallace: Yeah, well look I

want to get to this conversation

326

about your guys great new report.

327

I also want to just Um put a little

push in here on on your your latest

328

Um post around charter schools and and

hey in this game of musical chairs Uh

329

charter schools may may lose out here.

330

Um, I may you know uh write something

on this because that was one that

331

provoked me to think you know, I Andy

and I agree on most things on this one.

332

I don't think we do but

Amplify a little bit.

333

What, what, what informed your, or what,

you know, was the precipitating event for

334

you to write that musical chairs piece?

335

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, that's a great.

336

So a lot of conversations is that I think,

um, you know, what you saw, I think, I

337

think it was Travis pillow from Florida

is like, we're not seeing this in Florida.

338

And you had people, um, but then like,

you know, Brandon Brown and in, uh,

339

runs the mind trust in Indianapolis.

340

Like, no, this is exactly like,

he was like, I, this is the

341

piece I would have written.

342

Um, Uh, so I think, um, and I

guess I'm sort of pre budding what

343

I anticipate your objection is.

344

Um, I think it depends on the contact.

345

It depends on the place.

346

I don't think this is like across.

347

And I think we tend to think about

this stuff in national terms.

348

And I think it depends place by place.

349

It depends what's on offer.

350

Um, in different places, but you're

hearing a lot of conversations where,

351

uh, particularly on the right, people

are, like, really excited about the

352

potential for more sort of universal

unfettered choice and feel like charters

353

are, you know, growth is slowing in

places, um, uh, all the regulatory

354

hurdles and some of these folks like

charters were like a way station for them.

355

They were never actually

bought into the charter model.

356

It was just more choice.

357

Now, the flip side of this is,

historically, as you know, When

358

we've had more pressure for private

school choice, it's actually

359

been really great for charters.

360

And I mean, the early days of Brian

Hassel wrote a book about this years

361

ago in the early days of charters, like

that was like the biggest predictor

362

of if you're going to get charters

was like a serious voucher threat.

363

It was like

364

Andy Rotherham: your compromise.

365

So there's a, there's a positive scenario

there as well, but I'm concerned that this

366

thing you've talked about charters don't

have a crisp differentiator right now.

367

They've tried to basically.

368

Convince the Democrats that, hey, we're

not so bad when the Democrats structurally

369

simply can't embrace them and that there

is more energy on the on the right now

370

around some of these other choice options

and so that that's that's what I'm hearing

371

and seeing and it seems like a direction.

372

It's one of those ones.

373

Obviously, like, I hope

I'm completely wrong.

374

Jed Wallace: Well, in terms of,

like, where charter schools sit, you

375

know, I think that, um, like, one

of the comments that you made that's

376

probably the one that I've, I've

pointed people to the most in terms

377

of your work, Andy, is around charter

schools and the, and the cool kids.

378

You know, in the cafeteria and you said

that, you know, in, in Arizona, when we

379

were there for charter school growth fund.

380

And I think you've said it on other

recordings that we've done too.

381

It's just completely and

utterly dysfunctional.

382

Charter schools just want to

see where the cool kids are.

383

We just want to see where the political,

where it's politically opportunistic to

384

seat ourselves and we go there almost

regardless what the policy position is

385

that's, you know, being talked about

in the, in the cafeteria that day

386

and how dysfunctional that is for us.

387

We have to like know what You know what?

388

What's what do we want

to eat in the cafeteria?

389

What's you know, what's going to be our

true sustenance from a policy standpoint?

390

And we got to see ourselves, you know,

we're there and and when we can like

391

do so in a in a principle way, we're

going to find people coming to us

392

rather than us having to bounce and

back and forth across the cafeteria

393

every time a new topic comes up.

394

So I love that, you know, chair

reference on this musical chairs.

395

I'm just not seeing anybody yet

really pull a chair away from charter

396

schools and In these red contexts

where you see people that are excited

397

about esas and that kind of stuff.

398

I'm not really seeing any Policy

setback for charter schools.

399

In fact, I think we've seen a lot

of policy Um wins happen for charter

400

schools simultaneous the real thing and

you pointed this out The real thing as

401

far as I can tell in terms of charter

school seats How many are we growing?

402

Are we serving more kids or not?

403

And that's the key thing that may

ultimately pull chairs away from us,

404

our own decision, our own inability

to grow at the level that is needed to

405

capture the attention of policymakers

and show that we're on a trajectory

406

for the breadth of, of, of change.

407

That policy makers want to see

now, do you see risk though?

408

Andy Rotherham: I mean, I, I hear that.

409

Do you see risk that when like, so

let's look at these states where

410

ESAs have completely busted the

budget because they're so popular and

411

you're going to have to come back.

412

Do you see risks that like when you get

to that actual level of like zero sum

413

political fighting over resources that

like charters, they will, they will be

414

playing the weekend when that happens.

415

Which could happen sooner,

sooner than we think.

416

Jed Wallace: Yeah, I mean, I think

the budgetary pressure coming from,

417

uh, ESAs that are not means tested

is going to be very, um, significant.

418

Um, I mean, when you look at Arizona,

65 million originally budgeted,

419

it's ended up costing 900 million.

420

There's a huge chunk there to, um,

to address, but are charter schools

421

going to be the ones that that

people try to take resources from?

422

Um, I don't really foresee that.

423

I mean, there might be some things

like maybe at the federal level.

424

You know, vouchers start saying,

Hey, we want a chunk of the C.

425

S.

426

P.

427

Dollars so that if people want to set

up a new private school, there's some

428

funding from maybe or maybe some of the

facilities programs that we've set up.

429

Why should the facilities programs

only go to charter schools?

430

And maybe people would try to, uh, to

get a piece of it for private schools.

431

But generally, um, I think as long as

charter schools keep growing, I'm more

432

worried about, you know, in Florida, if

we've got, you know, 8, 000, you know,

433

per kid going to wealthy families, um,

some of whom may have, like, wanted

434

to stay within the traditional school

system for, you know, values, reasons.

435

The traditional system

continues to fall apart.

436

Charter schools can't grow fast enough.

437

So suddenly, you know, there's a

bunch of new momentum, you know, in

438

private schools, you know, uh, I,

I mean, we shouldn't be saying what

439

about these things altogether, but

still not the degree of, of risk I

440

see yet, or the evidence yet that

would warrant chairs being pulled

441

away in the game of musical chairs.

442

Andy Rotherham: We should disagree more.

443

It's fun.

444

We'll do, we'll, we'll find,

we'll find more of these.

445

Lynn, before we move,

we've got to wake Lynn up.

446

Um, uh, uh, before we move to the

reason we had, we invited you on,

447

like, is it true that everything

you need to understand about adult

448

relations, you can learn by hanging

out in a high school cafeteria?

449

Are you asking me that question?

450

Yeah.

451

Do you agree?

452

Do you agree with our jet?

453

That's the way that's the place.

454

Jed and I agree that like

basically all you need to learn

455

how people are going to behave.

456

You can learn in

457

Lynne Graziano: That's

an interesting theory.

458

Uh, probably.

459

I mean, It's got some merit.

460

It

461

Andy Rotherham: explains Congress, right?

462

Lynne Graziano: Yeah,

463

Andy Rotherham: for sure.

464

How Congress works.

465

You got the

466

Lynne Graziano: dynamics.

467

Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

468

You got the nerds, the jocks,

the cool kids, like the bullies.

469

Yeah,

470

Jed Wallace: I mean, I'm not sure

if it describes all of humanity,

471

but it certainly describes

People working in ed policy Yeah

472

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, absolutely.

473

Um, hey, so the reason we didn't have

you on is we did this report this week

474

It's called edge of 17, which i'm like

probably prouder of the title than I

475

than I should be but um We always try to

give these things catchy Catchy titles

476

that felt like we we should give stevie

mix her her due And then you worked on.

477

And so like, I just want to, like,

it was just a fun, it's one of these

478

stock taking reports we do where

it's non normative, we don't get into

479

like, here's the right way or wrong

way to think about these questions.

480

It's much more like, Hey,

here's what's happening.

481

Um, and we've done previous ones on

sort of, um, uh, on common ground

482

that like a lot of these issues that

are considered really polarizing,

483

actually, if you scratch the surface,

like there's tons of agreement on them.

484

Uh, and so.

485

Like we're, we're being professionally

divided by the political

486

class on some of these things.

487

Then we did one on science of

reading and that was like, you know,

488

there's some risks ahead for science

of reading and, and some lessons.

489

And then this latest one was

on what the hell does it even

490

mean to be 16 or 17 in 2024?

491

Um, so do you want to talk a little

bit about like what we did and

492

then we can dive in and I know

Jed's got some questions too.

493

Lynne Graziano: Yeah.

494

So this kind of came out of an idea that

I guess you and a colleague at Reason.

495

Um, had earlier this year and I guess

last year at this point and reason had

496

done, um, an initial database need to

give a shout out to them because they had

497

done a look at some of these fields back

498

research was done and they had shared

that with us and we took that as kind

499

of a springboard to look at, you know,

Both things that they had looked at, like

500

sex and age of consent and marriage age

and driving ages, and added some of our

501

own categories that hadn't been looked

at at that time, to what ultimately

502

became 36 policies and actions that

we categorized into six sort of rough

503

buckets, and ended up figuring out a way

to rank them, which is, Shout out to Chad

504

Alderman, who was also on this project

and helped do the rankings of those

505

and come up with a way to, to do that.

506

And to your point, we didn't weigh

anything extra based on our own opinions

507

or what we thought was more important.

508

We all just kind of ranked

these things equally.

509

And then sort of came up with

a permissive to restrictive

510

ranking system of the states.

511

Which turned out to be really

interesting because most states are not

512

consistently either one or the other.

513

The vast majority of states have

some areas that they're very

514

restrictive in and other areas

where they're very permissive in.

515

And so we started breaking those

down and looked at, you know, where

516

trends were and where there was a

lot of legislation happening, and

517

some of that was surprising as well.

518

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, I think one

of the big takeaways is people,

519

you would naturally assume, okay,

federalism, there's gonna be

520

differences between the states.

521

But I think the degree of incoherence

within states is really, and that's one

522

of the reasons we wanted to do this.

523

We had a hunch that was the case.

524

Um, Catherine, Maggie Ward and I were just

talking one day about, like, some of these

525

issues that, you know, are really hot.

526

Um, Uh, and so like trans kids access

to healthcare is like a really hot

527

issue right now in terms of like a lot

of political friction and everybody's

528

like the age should be this or that.

529

But when you, and, and feels very

strongly, but when you pull back,

530

you're like, wait a minute, like,

like that doesn't align with any

531

other, doesn't align with people's

other political commitments and it

532

certainly doesn't align with like

how states are doing things in many.

533

Um, you know, for example, Mississippi

is like we shouldn't have, uh, trans

534

kids shouldn't have health care until

they're 18 because you shouldn't

535

do irreversible stuff to kids.

536

But like in Mississippi, you can get

married at pretty much any age, um,

537

which seems kind of irreversible.

538

Um, and so it's just, there's

just like a lack of, um, uh,

539

there's a lack of consistency.

540

Um, and then the other thing is, I think.

541

The natural thing here is everybody's

like, Oh, yeah, it's crazy.

542

You can be in the, you know, you can

be in the military and die for your

543

country, but you can't drink in a bar.

544

Um, but like, there's so many examples.

545

It's not just like these obvious ones.

546

There's just like all this stuff

that just doesn't make any sense.

547

Um, when you, when you back it

out, like you can make super

548

consequential decisions, but

you can't buy a lottery ticket.

549

You can, you know, um, uh, you know, just

like all these very, you can't gamble.

550

When can you, um, you know,

different ages now around pot.

551

And then the big one that's coming is like

social media where you're going to have.

552

States it looks like increasingly

where kids can have sex, but you're

553

not gonna be able to like, uh, You

know, you're not gonna be able to see

554

any representation of it on tiktok

555

Jed Wallace: Do you guys

um, were you able to?

556

Identify, you know what may have been

the moments historically that led to

557

incoherence Because I think that right

now we're in a moment of Okay, there's

558

this transgender issue, and, and, you

know, people want to score political

559

points, and, and they want it done

next Tuesday, and let's not even bother

560

to, like, review statute to see what

things, um, stand as it relates to,

561

to age, and so, boom, they just go.

562

Um, are there, were there other key

moments in history where, again,

563

people wanted to just project

something within a one or two week

564

basis that led to incoherence, or?

565

Are there no patterns along those

lines that you guys can identify?

566

Lynne Graziano: Yeah, I don't think

there was, I don't think there

567

was ever a time that there was

more coherence or less coherence.

568

I feel what I came away from this was

how truly separate our states are,

569

that our states stand on their own

strange mix of politics and values and

570

regional interests and just economics.

571

There's a whole variety of

things that play into that.

572

Religious mix, you know, all

of that kind of goes into it.

573

There's some things that sort of,

You know, there was a trend, like

574

for instance, the, um, the marriage

legislation was a good example of that.

575

So prior to when Reason did their

576

almost every state you could get married

at very young ages, if you met some

577

degree of exception, whether that was

your parents said, okay, if the woman

578

was pregnant, um, If the court, if,

if you appealed to a court to get an

579

order, there was a variety of ways you

could get married at really young ages.

580

I mean marriages, even just as

581

12, 10 year olds, you know, things

you don't really wanna think about.

582

Um, and so Jen, where are you on that?

583

Where are you

584

Jed Wallace: on that issue?

585

I'm sorry, I'm,

586

Lynne Graziano: I'm on child marriage

587

. Um, judge, you don't have to answer that.

588

I ain't touching that one.

589

Keep going.

590

Ask everybody that.

591

Andy's proud because his state

was the most recent state and

592

the first state in the South to

actually make 18 the minimum age.

593

But when we first started looking

594

states that had said 18 is a minimum.

595

There's now 12.

596

And in the course of this project,

which has just been a few months, it

597

went from like seven or eight to 12.

598

So this is like a hot area of

legislation that a lot of people are

599

not aware that there's two or three

really strong advocacy organizations

600

out there really pushing to make.

601

18, the universal minimum

age across the country.

602

So that could be something that

we'll have, you know, the next time

603

we do this study, it might be so

cohesive that we can set that one

604

aside like we did the drinking age

and, um, the age to buy cigarettes.

605

But, um, but that was a really

interesting area to, to see.

606

Um, child labor was another one.

607

So 21 states have, Permission for

12 year olds to work in agricultural

608

settings during the school day.

609

And I thought that was, you know,

610

Andy Rotherham: Yeah,

that was interesting.

611

And I think, um, uh, well,

a couple of thoughts.

612

I do think there are some

issues where there's consistency

613

and that's either because.

614

Because we reached some

kind of a consensus.

615

I certainly hope we get there on child

marriage because one of the alarming

616

things is the number of child marriages.

617

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's

like over the last 15 years, it's around

618

like 60, 000 or so that would be criminal.

619

except for, uh, the fact that

it's covered under state law.

620

If there wasn't a state law, the

activity would be would be criminal.

621

And I mean, that I just think

that's like incredibly troubling.

622

And so hopefully we will get

to a point where everybody's

623

like, Yeah, 18 on that one.

624

Um, but what shows are in shows are

the inherent inconsistency 18 at

625

some level is kind of arbitrary,

but I think it makes us all feel

626

better in terms of protecting kids.

627

Um, uh, and then you have ones that are

consistent because you have federal law.

628

So Lynn mentioned, you know, alcohol,

alcohol and is that that's in

629

that regard is not an interesting

question because it's 21 everywhere.

630

So we didn't even look at it.

631

I do think some of this just springs up.

632

We forget how complicated the system is.

633

So like right now we're about to have,

you know, the Biden administration's

634

announced they're going to change

the scheduling for marijuana.

635

Um, from from being a schedule one, which

is like, basically a drug that we say

636

has no, uh, purposes is, you know, is

addictive, dangerous, no health purposes

637

to a different schedule where we put drugs

that can be dangerous, but also have, um.

638

benefits, but like it's not going

to, that's not going to create total

639

consistency because the states have

laws that are all over the place.

640

And it's going to take a long time.

641

Same thing was true, obviously

after prohibition, that was a thing.

642

Um, uh, same thing was true.

643

Like women, we, we, we

talk about suffrage.

644

Like women were voting in many places

before you had the federal law, like, so

645

there's like, I think some of it is just

like fun with federalism level stuff.

646

There's just always.

647

And, and, and then you have the

thing that, that, um, Lynn's talking

648

about where people get hopped up.

649

I think it was Lindsay, you

know, just on a particular issue.

650

And so suddenly that issue, you know, just

emerges and then that's going to be there.

651

And then these laws don't.

652

Change for a while.

653

So I think it's like all those

things lead to this inconsistency.

654

And then we're talking about kids.

655

So like, you're very, we're very

susceptible to moral panics and

656

and and and that and that shows up.

657

Jed Wallace: Well, it's kids

in this moment in time to and

658

with all of the new stuff.

659

I mean, heck, It could be that, that,

you know, they're going to be taking away

660

cell phones from 17 year olds, at least

while they're in school all day, right?

661

Right.

662

So there'll

663

Andy Rotherham: be in some states,

they'll be able to have sex, but they

664

will not be able to take pictures

of themselves with their phones.

665

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

666

So it

667

Andy Rotherham: doesn't

make a lot of sense.

668

Jed Wallace: And, you know, as you guys

pointed out, uh, in your report, there's,

669

we also have this kind of societal

evolution, um, of a lot of young people

670

pushing off certain adult activities.

671

I mean, they don't even want to.

672

They don't want to drive anymore.

673

They're getting, um, also a

lot of teenagers, they aren't

674

having sex anymore, right?

675

Um, and so how do you think that, how

do you think the incoherence that you

676

found that seems like it's been there

forever, perhaps there's a spike up, you

677

know, as it relates to the transgender

stuff, but this historical incoherence

678

about what defines an adolescent

and what can, uh, defines an adult.

679

How is it, you know,

affecting teenagers today?

680

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, I don't

think it's the transgender thing

681

that's causing it to spike up.

682

I think that's just an example.

683

I just think that's an example

where everybody gets hopped

684

up about a particular issue.

685

And that was sort of, like, that was

the impetus for us to do this report,

686

is like, instead of focusing on any

one issue, just broaden the aperture.

687

Is there, does this make sense?

688

Cause what we have is this situation where

you have, you know, in, in, you know,

689

kids have all kinds of access in various

States, the different kinds of healthcare,

690

mental health services and so forth.

691

And again, we didn't get into

who's right or who's wrong.

692

You can.

693

Argue, you shouldn't be able, you

know, someone wants to make the case.

694

You shouldn't be able to access

mental health until you're 18

695

without your parents' consent.

696

Like, have at it, go make that argument.

697

But the fact is, like across the

country, it looks like wildly, uh,

698

looks wildly different right now.

699

And that's what we were simply trying

to, um, to, to call attention to.

700

And just how.

701

Like in Virginia, the age of

consent for sex is 18 in Montana.

702

It's 16.

703

We use, I use that example, um, and

something I wrote about this week and

704

like, you know, you have to ask yourself,

are our kids in Montana two years

705

ahead in on average, in their ability

to make good decisions, our kids in

706

Virginia, really two years behind or.

707

Is this just totally arbitrary and then

like, I mean, you can look at brain

708

science and stuff, but there's not

like a clear, like, what should it be?

709

And I think we, we often do

tend to default to 18 just for

710

customary reasons, but like, like

there's no, maybe it should be 17.

711

Like, it's just, it's just hard to,

um, and so you just end up, I think,

712

with just a lot of arbitrary stuff.

713

Lynn, what would, what would you say?

714

Lynne Graziano: I think I lost

track of the question at this

715

point, um, just in terms of.

716

Andy Rotherham: With kids.

717

Well, there's this point on

like, does this affect kids?

718

And I'm, I mean, it's my short answer

on that would be, I don't think it does.

719

Cause kids are going to, if kids

wants to, kids want to drink,

720

they're going to find a way to drink.

721

They don't care.

722

It's 21.

723

Right.

724

And they're going to engage

in various kinds of behavior.

725

Like, I don't know how much

attention they pay to this.

726

Lynne Graziano: Yeah.

727

So one of the things, um, you know, we

were looking at this through the lens of,

728

of, you talk about, you know, ignoring

the laws and the incoherent laws, um,

729

vaping is a great example of that.

730

And it's an issue that really does

plague schools because schools have

731

to wrestle with it all the time.

732

And yet technically no one within the

school, you know, doors other than

733

the teachers should be able to buy

vaping products, you know, and yet

734

obviously kids everywhere have them.

735

So I think that's, um.

736

That's an example of where even with

the incoherence and the, the, or, or

737

the coherence of a law, it's 21, um,

there can be just incoherence in how

738

it's enforced and, and, um, plays out.

739

I think for kids today though, you

know, as opposed to when I was growing

740

up, there's more a sense of what other

kids can do in other places, right?

741

We talk about social media, we talk about

TikTok, we talk about, I mean, you can see

742

what the kids are doing in California if

you live in Nebraska, you know, and, and

743

you can, You can see what permissions are

in different places that maybe you don't

744

have, um, where you are, particularly

when it comes into issues like getting an

745

abortion or, or having somebody provide

you some sort of transgender health care.

746

You know, there's a tension that comes

in there then with knowing that here

747

you are the same age as somebody else

and they can do it and you can't.

748

And I feel like that's probably, Just

adding to the sort of the anguish and

749

the general angst and mental health

issues that some of our young people

750

have that recognition that, um, it's not

the same for other kids and that if they

751

could just get their parents to move

them somewhere, maybe their life would

752

be better in a way that they perceive.

753

Um, I found that kind of

interesting to think about.

754

Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

755

That interconnectedness.

756

Is a big thing.

757

And we talk about Jed.

758

One of the things on this, we, um,

you, you know, schools are people

759

like, well, why, why, what, why

are you guys interested in this?

760

And like, cause a lot of this lands

right at the schoolhouse door.

761

Yeah.

762

Andy Rotherham: Those are mandatory

reporters on a variety of behaviors.

763

They have to enforce some of these other

laws, you know, around labor and, and in

764

some cases driving and things like, like

it all, it just shows how schools are just

765

intersections for sort of communities.

766

Um, all this stuff.

767

And then you throw in all the sort of

hot button social stuff, whether it's

768

around mental health, around transgender

kids, around, um, uh, social media, like

769

schools end up like at the flashpoint.

770

And also, if we're being fair, like

schools also have, in some cases,

771

injected themselves into this.

772

They've decided to take positions

on on highly disputed issues.

773

But that's one of the reasons we

did it was just to like this this

774

this in some ways is an educational

issue Just because of where

775

schools are positioned in society.

776

Jed Wallace: I guess where I would

be Because I think I would talk

777

about a little bit differently.

778

Um, andy than you just did,

you know, how much does this?

779

Directly affect the our adolescence.

780

I I just feel as though we're in

this moment when Um the challenges of

781

adolescence, um and an early adulthood

Are becoming more, um, first of all,

782

they're becoming more severe just in

terms of the mental health problems.

783

We're having just health

problems and habit changes

784

and all these kinds of things.

785

Um, we have a policy construct for

what to do with quote unquote minors.

786

Um, and we have a policy construct that

applies to adults, and it just seems as

787

though we're entering this time when being

able from a policy perspective to be able

788

to say this is what we need, um, to help

foster healthy late adolescence and early

789

adults, um, is a new imperative, but we

don't even have a policy construct, a

790

policy, you know, structure within which

we could actually tailor a helpful policy.

791

Andy Rotherham: Well, in some

states you do have a contract,

792

you have a mature minor statute.

793

So, and, and, and, and so, but

I take your point in general,

794

I completely take your point.

795

I don't have an answer at all.

796

I said, like, I thought we need in

the thing I wrote about this was

797

like, we need to be asking where we

probably shielding kids from, uh,

798

areas they should have responsibility.

799

Uh, and then where are we giving

them responsibility too soon?

800

And like, from where I sit, the

answer is probably examples of both.

801

And we just have no, no one can tell

you like, and in the old days you

802

did have sort of certain rituals for

various reasons and like where kids

803

move through these gateways and, and

we, and those are sort of eroded.

804

And so no one can just really

tell you like a 16 year old.

805

Um, like what does that, they

can tell you they can drive like

806

legally they have that, right.

807

But what does it actually mean,

808

No one really.

809

Knows the answer, at least

no one I've encountered.

810

And that I do think is

something we should talk about.

811

And it, it does implicate education in

terms of like, what kind of agency should

812

kids have on high school decisions.

813

We talk, whether we're talking about

pathways, um, uh, different kinds of

814

credentials, different kinds of things

they wanna do, you know, like that, the

815

lack of co consensus around that does.

816

Come into, uh, come into play.

817

Lynn, what would you say there?

818

Lynne Graziano: Yeah, I

mean, I think that's right.

819

I think you hit on a lot of it.

820

We didn't, we researched it, we didn't

really include it in the paper, but one

821

of the things that struck me, again, Jed,

going back to your kind of historical

822

time frame differences, you know,

there were like, What were considered

823

like five traditional events that a

young person would become an adult.

824

And that was, they would

leave their parents home.

825

They would get married.

826

They would possibly buy a home.

827

They would complete education

or job training, and they

828

would enter the workforce.

829

They would become a full pay, you

know, tax paying member of society.

830

Experts now agree that.

831

Instead of those like traditional events

that young people are actually like seeing

832

markers, and it's more like accepting

responsibility for themselves, feeling

833

like they have autonomy, making their

own decisions and attaining financial

834

independence, whatever that looks like.

835

And so it's been separated from sort of

these, these clear roadmarks that you

836

would, you would get along the way to be

more of a thing that's identified, like

837

how you identify and how you feel it.

838

And so it's harder to just, even from a

young person's perspective, I think, say,

839

Oh, I'm an adult now, you know, because

it's, it's not as clear as it once was.

840

Jed Wallace: I have a question for

you guys, which is what does this

841

make you think about education policy?

842

We see now what a total lack of

coherence, what inconsistency there

843

is, you know, on the books in this,

I think, smaller, you know, niche,

844

but I'm like, look, I sometimes keep

the California ed code on my desk.

845

I see it's elsewhere in my office

right now, but I mean, it's, It's as

846

you know, it's thousands of pages long

and and any quick perusal and you can

847

find, you know, mutually exclusive

contradictory passages within it,

848

but no one is going through and and

trying to make these things consistent.

849

I'm just getting off a consultancy call

where we were charter advocates were

850

asking ourselves, should we just make it

an ongoing priority that we should reduce?

851

By two percent the number of words in

the ed code per year for the next 10

852

years Which would force a kind of look

at the overall ed code to purge itself of

853

its inconsistencies Having gone through

this exercise What what what might you

854

think about ed policy more broadly?

855

Andy Rotherham: It's a great question.

856

I don't know lynn you go first I've

got one thought but you go first.

857

Lynne Graziano: Yeah, so what I

mean, I think it's even it's it's We

858

looked at state level policy, right?

859

So with schools that you add the layer

of districts or like, it's like, it's

860

a complete nightmare because whatever

you've got at the SCA level, you've

861

got the LEA saying, well, we're

going to tweak this a little bit.

862

We're going to do this.

863

You know, it's just, um, Yeah.

864

And, and to the idea that, I mean, it,

it makes what I think this project to me

865

explains why things like No Child Left

Behind and Common Core and, um, anything

866

that's been like a push for like universal

acceptance, even the current kind of

867

science of reading push, um, states have

very strong opinions, districts have

868

very strong opinions about what they are

doing now and why they are doing, I think

869

it's the why that they're so entrenched

and, um, They don't really want to

870

know, you know, why they should, should

change because this is how we do it.

871

Right.

872

So,

873

Jed Wallace: yeah.

874

Interesting.

875

Andy Rotherham: I mean, yeah.

876

And I think, look, some degree of

this is, is you're going to have this,

877

um, this is just like, there's always

going to be some incoherence and some

878

contradictions and, and, and that's,

that's life in a democracy where the

879

people get to make the decisions.

880

Like if you want to have a really

streamlined system, there's like

881

other forms of government, which

I think are a lot less desirable.

882

Um, I do think sort of in very

practical terms for education, it does.

883

We are having these different

conversations about high school and

884

they're usually proceeding from places

like what credentials do you need for

885

the workforce or is college rather than

proceeding from this point of like what

886

kinds of decisions should like 14 year

olds, 16 year olds, 18 year olds, Be

887

making and the 18 one is a little bit

decided for us because of our legal

888

structures, like 14 year old, 16 year

old, and I don't think we proceed

889

from that, which I think leads us to

all kinds of like we, we don't give

890

kids agency where we probably should.

891

We give them too much in some case.

892

Like I'm not, that's why we've talked

about this job, not a huge fan of like

893

pathways for 14 year olds because you

don't know necessarily enough yet.

894

But I, and I, and I think we,

we, if we proceeded from a little

895

bit of sort of an age kind of

standpoint, that would be useful.

896

And then also Rich's shows, we have

to find ways to have systems that

897

are flexible because we simply are

not going to agree a bunch of the

898

issues we talked about, you're going

to find people all over the place on

899

the other, whether it's, you know,

healthcare questions, mental health.

900

The stuff on sex, drugs, you know,

people that, you know, people are gonna

901

be all over the place and so you've

got to figure out for schools aren't

902

going to solve all those, but for

schools and education policy, which

903

is a, you know, how are these public

schools going to work for the public?

904

We have to have systems that have some

degree of flexibility in them because

905

we're not going to be able to make this

to see some of these decisions for in

906

terms of education policy for everybody.

907

Jed Wallace: Let me push you guys on

this on this ed policy comparison point

908

because it makes sense to me that this

would happen in this adolescence early

909

adulthood thing because we don't really

have a group of advocates that are focused

910

on on this particular slice, right?

911

And so, okay, it's a little bit of a gap.

912

So maybe no one minding the store at all.

913

We, uh, you know, we allow

these inconsistency to approach.

914

Well, um, in ed policy,

We got thousands of us.

915

We're focused on this, and it should

at least be like coming in and saying,

916

Hey, do we have consistency or not?

917

And when and when we don't, I

mean, the advocates could be,

918

like, really working on this.

919

Okay, let's purge the stuff

that doesn't make sense.

920

Or let's make consistent the

things that are inconsistent.

921

Uh, I think this speaks to it's making

me think about, um, we and advocates

922

aren't doing nearly as good a job as

as we could be if we if we thought

923

about it, taking a general lens that

you guys brought to this exercise.

924

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, maybe.

925

I don't know.

926

I just feel like I it's interesting

that you the way you approach the scale

927

question that there's so many of us

and all that I find I still feel like

928

education policy is still very much a

cottage and you get you, you know, you

929

get on the you get these emails and

they'll have, you know, 50 people on them.

930

And like, it's it's like 50 people

really are doing different things.

931

Things and, and are able to drive things.

932

I like, that's certainly not how

it works, like in the energy world.

933

Um, right.

934

You know, um, or

healthcare for that matter.

935

And so, so I don't know.

936

I, I, I, I, I, I would

need to think about that.

937

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

938

Land.

939

What do you think?

940

Lynne Graziano: Yeah, same

941

Jed Wallace: last word here.

942

Why isn't this up here?

943

Lynne Graziano: Yeah.

944

I don't, I don't think

I have a wise answer.

945

I, I mean, I think what you see.

946

So if you look at the examples, we

excluded things that have become

947

kind of universal policy, right?

948

The drinking age, the voting age, um,

could add policy pick three or four things

949

that they really wanted to be consistent

on and make those work nationally.

950

I mean, I think what's happened with

one of the lessons, you know, of this.

951

Paper was, you know, for instance, that

the driving age was, um, the drinking age

952

was established because of federal federal

money that was leveraged and said, look,

953

you don't get your transportation dollars

if you don't, um, move it up to 21.

954

And so states did, and some states created

sort of loopholes for that, but 21.

955

Um.

956

What is the, what is the federal

cudgel that could be used to get

957

everybody aligned on whatever it

is we decide is the most or, you

958

know, two or three important things.

959

And I think that's, That

alone, I mean, just identifying

960

what those 2 or 3 things are.

961

I think you're going to get different

answers from wherever you ask.

962

So, um, there may be something to do

963

Andy Rotherham: that though.

964

Right?

965

I mean, that was the whole idea

with like, you know, conditional

966

aid for various things.

967

We still do.

968

The conditions are pretty meaningless

at this point, but like, at different

969

points, they've been quite meaningful.

970

Um, that's that's been the

that's been the approach.

971

And I, I like your idea, Jed, you

could, you know, and Ben Austin is

972

trying to do this with this like right

to a quality education that actually

973

includes some sort of right of action.

974

Yeah, it's been a big project of his.

975

So there are like, and maybe we would be

better off if, if, and I may, so maybe

976

I'm completely wrong by being like, I,

you're always going to have some of this.

977

And instead we said, no, it's

not like tolerate this level of.

978

core stuff.

979

Jed Wallace: Well, I commend

you guys for just taking a

980

run at something in a new way.

981

I, I, when I first saw this,

I did a double take on it.

982

What, what is Bellwether doing?

983

Oh, oh, oh, okay.

984

Um, and, um, And it's I think made

me think about the subject itself

985

in a different way But it also has

made me think about all sorts of

986

adjacencies in different ways, too

um, so, um There could be all sorts

987

of bank shot values to what you guys

have done here So so thanks for it.

988

I mean i'll i'll leave it up to you guys

to wrap it up with any any final thoughts

989

here But um an interesting discussion

and definitely an interesting report

990

Andy Rotherham: And there's a big

thanks to Lynn for taking time out to

991

come, uh, join us and do this with us.

992

Lynne Graziano: And now that I

know it's, I was not making a good

993

decision to do this according to you

guys, but it was really a good time.

994

I enjoyed it and, um, really

appreciate the opportunity to talk

995

about this was really, I mean, I've

done a lot of projects at Bellwether.

996

This was, was definitely one of the,

the most interesting in terms of

997

just exposing me to a whole range of

things I hadn't really thought about.

998

And, um, as somebody who's gone through,

you know, My own raising kids and,

999

you know, never thought about what

it meant to them to have to identify

00:52:55,685 --> 00:52:57,015

all these things in the process.

00:52:57,015 --> 00:52:59,745

And, um, it was just,

it was a good project.

00:52:59,765 --> 00:53:03,685

And it was great to work with the

team of Andy, Chad and our other

00:53:03,685 --> 00:53:05,235

Andy at Bellwether, Andy Jacob.

00:53:05,385 --> 00:53:08,165

So shout out to everybody

who was part of the project.

00:53:08,195 --> 00:53:09,105

It was, it was a lot of fun.

00:53:09,445 --> 00:53:10,585

Andy Rotherham: We'll throw in the notes.

00:53:10,955 --> 00:53:11,335

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

00:53:13,895 --> 00:53:14,215

Andy.

00:53:14,215 --> 00:53:15,375

I'll see you in a few weeks.

00:53:16,825 --> 00:53:17,245

All right.

00:53:18,095 --> 00:53:18,495

See you now.

00:53:18,995 --> 00:53:19,365

Take care.